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Article Rescue Squadron

This page is within the scope of the Article Rescue Squadron WikiProject, a collaborative effort to rescue items from deletion when they can be improved through regular editing. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, where you can help improve Misplaced Pages articles considered by others to be based upon notable topics.Article Rescue SquadronWikipedia:Article Rescue SquadronTemplate:WikiProject Article Rescue SquadronArticle Rescue Squadron

Welcome to the talkpage of the Article Rescue Squadron. If you are looking for assistance to rescue an article please follow these instructions.

view · edit Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question. Article help Q: Can the Article rescue squadron (ARS) save my article from deletion? A: Not exactly. First off, Misplaced Pages is a 💕 and articles can be changed by anyone and no individual exclusively controls any specific article. Secondly, if an article meets Misplaced Pages's policies on notability and reliable sourcing it likely will not be deleted. There are also alternatives to deletion which may be appropriate. The project members will do what they can as time allows. We suggest that you reference Tips to help rescue articles and the Article Rescue Squadron Guide to saving articles Q: Will ARS help fix the rest of article problems after the deletion discussion? A: In theory, No. Often, however, individual members will assist after the discussion has closed. You may want to contact a related WikiProject to see if someone there can assist. Sometimes project members completely overhaul an article but in practice most changes are incremental, and you should take initiative to add sourcing and improve the article yourself. Many times other editors will post sources to the deletion discussion; if they meet our sourcing standards then feel free to apply them to the article. Scope Q: Does ARS work to rescue other content on Misplaced Pages (other than articles)? A: While articles remain our main focus, poorly-formed encyclopedia content can be found in other namespaces. If content up for deletion, such as a template or image, is poorly-formed and you feel it can be fixed, go ahead and add it to the Rescue list, to request the ARS' consideration. Please be aware that unlike articles, templates and categories often change and are renamed to serve our readers. Q: Does ARS contribute to guideline and policy discussions? A: Similar to articles, policies and content are not exclusively controlled by any individual(s). If you think ARS should know about a policy discussion you can post a neutral notification, such as, "There is a discussion about topic at _____." on the ARS Talk page. Avoid even the appearance of telling anyone how to think or vote in the discussion— it's very important to keep the message neutral when inviting people to participate. See WP:Canvassing for clarification regarding appropriate discussion notifications. Q: What if I object to what the ARS is doing? A: ARS is no different from any of the hundreds of Wikiprojects in that we collaborate to improve Misplaced Pages. We are a maintenance Wikiproject, and as such our scope is not subject-focused (like a WikiProject focused on a specific sport, country or profession), as much as policy-focused to determine if content adheres to Misplaced Pages's policies on sourcing and notability. We try to determine if an article meets Misplaced Pages's notability guidleines as well as is it verifiable to reliable sources. We're also apt to suggest merging, listifying, redirecting and deleting as appropriate. Notifying the Article Rescue Squadron is essentially a means to request assistance with an article or content that one feels meets notability guidelines, or should be retained for other reasons. The goal is to improve articles and other content, to benefit our readers. All are welcome to help ARS improve the encyclopedia, just as at any of the other WikiProjects, which encompass a variety of views and interests. No canvassing Q: Does this project canvass editors to keep articles? A: No. The goal of the Article Rescue Squadron (ARS) is to clean up content that would otherwise be deleted. By necessity, this involves examining the deletion discussion to see what the problems with the article are, and then remedying them. If done correctly, this article cleanup improves the encyclopedia. If an article nominated for deletion is improved and retained on Misplaced Pages by this process, vis-à-vis addressing a nominator's concerns, the nominator hasn't "lost". Rather, the encyclopedia has won. Using this talk page Q:What about identifying and pointing out specific users who are nominating a lot of articles for deletion without apparent due cause? This talk page is for co-ordinating matters related to this project's purpose, which is rescuing content on notable topics from deletion. This is not a forum for dispute resolution. If there are issues with an individual user, talk to them personally or make a report or request at an appropriate noticeboard.

This page has been mentioned by a media organization. The mention is in: James Gleick (8 August 2008). "Wikipedians Leave Cyberspace, Meet in Egypt: In Alexandria, 650 Devotees Bemoan Vandals, Debate Rules; Deletionists vs. Inclusionists". Wall Street Journal. Nicholson Baker (20 March 2008). "The Charms of Misplaced Pages". New York Review of Books.

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About deleted articles There are three processes under which mainspace articles are deleted: 1) speedy deletion; 2) proposed deletion (prod) and 3) Articles for deletion (AfD). For more information, see WP:Why was my page deleted? To find out why the particular article you posted was deleted, go to the deletion log and type into the search field marked "title," the exact name of the article, mindful of the original capitalization, spelling and spacing. The deletion log entry will show when the article was deleted, by which administrator, and typically contain a deletion summary listing the reason for deletion. If you wish to contest this deletion, please contact the administrator first on their talk page and, depending on the circumstances, politely explain why you think the article should be restored, or why a copy should be provided to you so you can address the reason for deletion before reposting the article. If this is not fruitful, you have the option of listing the article at WP:Deletion review, but it will probably only be restored if the deletion was clearly improper. List discussionsWP:Articles for deletion WP:Categories for discussion WP:Copyright problems WP:Deletion review WP:Miscellany for deletion WP:Redirects for discussion WP:Stub types for deletion WP:Templates for discussion WP:WikiProject Deletion sorting WT:Articles for deletion WT:Categories for discussion WT:Copyright problems WT:Deletion review WT:Miscellany for deletion WT:Redirects for discussion WT:Stub types for deletion WT:Templates for discussion WT:WikiProject Deletion sorting

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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I have found in my work with new editors, that the majority of new editors are welcomed with warning templates and impersonally nasty messages, saying subtly, and not so subtly, that "your contributions are not welcome" In other words, veteran editors can be real &*&(^ to new users. What I love about this project is we are not only about saving articles, we are about, indirectly, retaining new users. I just created a new template/barnstar morph: User:Ikip/t which can be placed on new editors talk pages: ==Welcome== Your Opinion is More Important than You Think Barnstar Hello, Article Rescue Squadron, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! I hope you like wikipedia and decide to stay. I am sorry that there are so many impersonal warning messages on your talk page. There are many editors who feel that your hard work here is important and valuable, especially me. Need help? If you are looking for help, you can just type: {{helpme}} ...and your question on this page, and someone will show up shortly to answer. Or, please visit New contributors' help page, where experienced Wikipedians can answer any queries you have! If you have any questions at all, please . Again, welcome! Ikip (talk) 11:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC) {{Subst:User:Ikip/t}} The template signs your name for you. It is part of: Your Opinion is More Important than You Think Barnstar message Ikip (talk) 11:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC) {{subst:Your Opinion is More Important than You Think Barnstar|message ~~~~}} Ikip (talk) 11:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

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...that there are Brownie points for newly-expanded articles which are available at WP:DYK? I just tried this for the first time on an article that I expanded to save it from deletion. The process wasn't too bad - easier than nominating an article for AFD. By doing this, you can get some kudos for the hard work of adding references and text as well as the warm glow of saving an article from deletion. This seems a good twofer and we can share the credit if we work together on a rescue. Colonel Warden (talk) 01:39, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

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Proposal to set up auto message for those who apply {{rescue}} template

The latest rounds of alleged abuse did spark an idea that may help. Perhaps an auto message that posts to any editor who adds {{rescue}} that prods them to try improving the article themselves and points them to some ideas about and resources for rescuing. This may in effect help them help themselves.

I think it would be helpful to concurrently develop a subpage with some steps that ARS has found useful in improving articles (finding sources, better writing, appropriate categories, etc.) finding those with more experience in the subject (finding wikiprojects or editors that may know more in a given field) and how to respond to concerns raised at AfD (these seem to exist already so we could simply summarize and link. The target audience is newbies et al who may not get wikipedia's policies and now feel "their article" is being picked on. We offer some welcoming advice and a more neutral stance that all articles have the same requirements but perhaps some work and research may help the article they have rise to the standards. Our preliminary research noted above and elsewhere shows that a lot a wobbly article are created by newbies so i think this may help. If nothing else it installs a reasonable and friendly message on their talkpage - perhaps the first one they've gotten - that clearly sets forth that articles that don't come up to standards are deleted. As part of that message we could encourage them to draft their next article and ask for more eyes before launching it. In this way I think we might help slow down repeat frustration on all fronts and may help conserve community resources. Does that sound like a promising concept? -- Banjeboi 02:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• A Nobody had a similar welcome template that may be helpful for soem of the resources, also Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Common outcomes seems a good resource. -- Banjeboi 02:53, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
  • And when he returns from "break", and if we can keep him focused (chuckle), Ikip had some terrific help pages for new editors that would serve very well for those being advised how best to affect a rescue. Schmidt, 09:39, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
    • Ikip is around now. I agree that specific help pages dealing with the deletion process would be nice. I think a large part of it, though, is that there is no punishment for overly aggressive people who nominate weak pages left and right, even article stubs that were just created. It's frustrating dealing with such aggressive deletionists; if they fail consensus on AfD, they don't actually lose anything and will simply try again later. Deletionism is a widely accepted philosophy, so they can't be accused of acting in bad faith either. -moritheil 05:55, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I already wrote User:Ikip/Del which helps new editors with arguing policies, anyone is welcome to edit and expand that page.

I also regularly post messages to new editors with promosing articles, for example: User_talk:Otomo#An_article_you_created_maybe_deleted_soon:_Tools_which_can_help_you

I remember Ben said that we need some way to review all of the articles which are put up for deletion. That is what I try to do everyday. I would like to create a web scrapper which takes all of the articles on WP:AFDT and then compares them to goolge news (archive) and google books. But thus far this has been difficult to program. Ikip (talk) 15:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd personally find an auto message very annoying. Anyone doing a lot of rescue work would get a lot of spam. The constructive recommended steps for article development are a great idea, however. Skomorokh 16:01, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with skom, there would have to be an opt out option. Ikip (talk) 17:36, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I'd rather not have an opt out for a couple of reasons. We can condense the content into drop-down format - "Click here for details" - thus mitigating issues of talkpage space. If someone gets ten in a row it still won't be that horrid. This bot is to present any up-to-date resources so even if someone didn't want one currently they easily may in the future but reality is that people opt out and rarely re-opt back in. I also see this as helping note if the tag is being "abused", that is if someone is misapplying the tag and they get multiple messages at least we'll have a record of that without having to investigate each AfD to confirm. In short the hassle of getting multiple messages can be somewhat addressed and the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. -- Banjeboi 22:31, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

A discussion of interest.

Wikipedia_talk:Deletion_guidelines_for_administrators#Deletion_is_to_be_a_last_resort In this, I argue that even when an AfD outcome by numbers is delete, administrators should be expected to close a discussion as merge when a reasonable merger target has been identified. That is, when we bust our butts making something verifiable and reliably sourced and enough people still think (or thought once and then never revisited the article after our improvements) it's not notable, the content we've added/improved can be expected to go to a reasonable merge target. Jclemens (talk) 19:49, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

great idea, but based on my experience at the deletion pages, I already know what the response will be, before I click on your link.

But hey, if the AfD can be increased to 7 days anything is possible, right? Ikip (talk) 23:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

It was suggested to take this to Misplaced Pages:Deletion Policy. Do you have plans to rewrite and do so? -- Banjeboi 18:42, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

No immediate plans, no. One can only deal with so many controversies at once, I'm afraid. Jclemens (talk) 06:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Should we back-burner this for future AfD proposals or archive. -- Banjeboi 02:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Poll: Do you support a bot which informs major contributors of an AFD?

Motion to close bot discussion

Seems there is overwhelming support to try this and various past bots have also been created along these lines. Obviously this may have to wait a bit but I'd like to close and compact this one as it seems to have winded down a bit. If no one else wants to address this i will but it will have to wait a few.

• Support as nom. -- Banjeboi 02:26, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Most abused acronyms in an AfD

I have thought a lot about this list, and am finally putting it down in print, what would you add to this list and why? Is my numbering correct?

1. WP:IINFO WP:INDISCRIMINATE "Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information". This section names: "Plot summaries" "Lyrics databases" "Statistics" and "News reports", but editors often quote it for any list.
2. WP:ONEEVENT and WP:BIO1E "People notable only for one event". Used for any event, no matter how signifigant.

Ikip (talk) 20:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, for WP:BLP1E, see my recent update to WP:OUTCOMES. :-) Jclemens (talk) 21:04, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Lovely. After it'd been discussed elsewhere and in place for several days, one post here and it gets reverted without meaningful comment within 10 minutes of this post. Jclemens (talk) 21:31, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

That's not a closely watched page. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 23:35, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

No, but I would presume that WT:BLP is both more relevant and more closely watched than here, which is where the discussion actually took place. Something's wrong if describing a new consensus on an unrelated page immediately results in a reversion without discussion. Jclemens (talk) 05:23, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Eh. It was reverted by Fritzpoll, who barely edited in the intervening two days. Plus, FP is active on BLP topics, but to my knowledge has never edited this talk page. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 12:24, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

None of those are acronyms except for BLP1E, hehe.

On a more serious note, cruft is almost always used exactly the way it means, but bear in mind that if you're arguing that the level of detail is excessive you're going to at least be able to justify that claim if challenged. If not, well, making conclusions you can't support is blowing hot air.

As for WP:BLP1E, be very careful about this, but you can almost always rewrite the article, disposing of the affectation of a biography. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 23:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Thinking about it, and after AMIB comments, I removed WP:Synth and WP:CRUFT. I still think that WP:IINFO is really abused though...Ikip (talk) 23:43, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

AMiB, if you're going to be pedantic, BLP1E isn't an acronym either. It's an initialism. Ha! yandman 09:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Ack! Hoist by my own petard. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 10:34, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

1Es the one I encounter most frequently. They use all sorts, Some seem to grasp at the first policy that comes into their heads. When you look at the wording its clearly inapplicable , and it can be so obvious you feel almost like you’re insulting them to point it out. Grrrrrr! FeydHuxtable (talk) 13:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

You mean: WP:BLP1E? Ikip (talk) 13:40, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Yep thats the one. I dont yet have a seasoned ARS campaigners precision of expression :-) FeydHuxtable (talk) 14:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

The sad fact is that all Wikipedians use these initialisms as a crutch, some much more than others. My advice is to always be able to explain the policy or guideline in your own words before you use it, so that if challenged you can successfully defend its relevance. (And this might be a way to discourage their abuse -- get the other party to explain how a given acronym/initialism applies.) -- llywrch (talk) 16:21, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I have been toying with a way of making templates, that instead of typing WP:BLP1E, you would type: {{WP:BLP1E}} and the name of the policy would be listed fully, with a link to the page. Ikip (talk) 16:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure where I turned it on but my browser does that for me. If I mouse over any internal link, it shows me the first few lines (including the full title) or the page the link points to. It's very useful. OlYeller 17:44, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

• Question. Is this all regarding the common outcomes page or something else? -- Banjeboi 00:15, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

It is not regarding the common outcomes page. I just posted my ideas, and Jclemens then mentioned the outcomes page. Ikip (talk) 00:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

• WP:NOTPAPER (not an acronym) is often cited as a blanket policy to justify any article, despite saying "This policy is not a free pass for inclusion: articles must still abide by the appropriate content policies, particularly those covered in the five pillars" pablo_hablo. 08:28, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
• On WP:IINFO, while that section names a few examples, the page does point out earlier that "he examples under each section are not intended to be exhaustive; see WP:BEANS". Just because it's not specifically mentioned doesn't mean it's indiscriminate, although some analysis of what is and isn't indiscriminate is overdue. Stifle (talk) 13:27, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. This seems somewhat useful info but I'm unsure where it could be directed to? Arguments to avoid or ? -- Banjeboi 10:48, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
• How about Misplaced Pages:Discriminate vs indiscriminate information? Stifle (talk) 08:24, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Right tea and biscuits and let's have a calm chat

Questions that need answering

Ok, there seems to e a rough consensus for an RfC. To answer Schmidt's question above, I would suggest a posting to WP:VPP and WP:CENT, which would not canvass any side specifically - I'm open to other suggestionsm but for the sake of propriety, I would be wary of any individual talk page postings. Hopefully there can be some agreement on that before the RfC opens.

So, what questions need answering? I suggest that if there is a question that needs answering, we start a new subsection below and discuss how to present the wording of the pro and con argument for the community to consider. I have a few ideas, but I'll just set up a sample or two below to get the ball rolling - what I write isn't set in stone, it is a distilation of the sides as I see it, and further discussion can add, remove or refine. Add subsections, go wild, but stay civil. Fritzpoll (talk) 21:25, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposal 1: ARS should participate in non-article XfD discussions like other wikiprojects.

Proposal 2: Article Rescue Squadron may be notified of XfD discussions

Proposal 3: Article Rescue Squadron can conduct itself like other wikiprojects.

Proposal 4: Article Rescue Squadron can be directly notified of other discussions, including policy talk pages

Seems to be the important one, although the other questions cannot be ignored - partly adapted from Randomeran's suggestion Fritzpoll (talk) 09:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for this addition. I suspect this is the most contentious issue. The others aren't so bad: XfD's are not a vote, and ARS usually succeeds on the merits of their improvements to an article. But this one is trickier. Either way, I'm comfortable working out a phrasing that presents both sides of the issue, and then puts it to a fresh group of editors. Randomran (talk) 15:36, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Zero for four I'm afraid. This one too seems to be a collosal waste of energy. This is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist. Wikiprojects have alsways been involved in discussions that impacts the work. This is not going to change. I suggest closing this per WP:Snow. The issue has not been notification but of percieved canvassing and the resulting actions and re-actions to all of that. I think the real question you're looking for is how can ARS neutrally and within community standards handle posts that sem to be violating canvassing? This has been answered a few times and the correct answer is not deleting anything. If something is waaay over the top I could see adding a {{hat}} and {{hab}} and restating the request neutrally but in my experience none of that was really needed. If anything deserves closer community-wide scrutiny it would be the reaction to perceived canvassing threads and an overly-aggressive stance of mischaracterizing this entire project thereby turning this very talkpage into a battlefield. Nothing at WP:Canvass suggests we pillory people and break out the pitchforks against a monster. Our civility policies are pretty clear we don't do this. Let's pretend those who post notifications here have rather good intentions. The rest is just working to see that those notices are neutral. This really hasn't been that big of an issue until the re-actions became a bit over-heated. Does anybody seriously think you're going to stop ARS, get the project deleted? Stop notifications of other discussions, etc.? It's really not. What remains then is for the very few people who have been posting the "alarming" posts to craft neutral messages and for those who have been raising alarms to really look at if there is any noticable damage if a not is non-NPOV, if so, simply state, this needs to be refactored or otherwise mitigated to ease neutrality concerns. You really don't need the community to spell this out. Likewise we're not about to topic ban anyone from here who is willing to modify their approach towards working with other editors here. I really don't see a need for any RfCs at the moment nor a strong need to elect or appoint one or more people to police or patrol or otherwise watch over this page and project. We will always have newbies who will make mistakes and our mandate is to help them. I would be very embarrassed if they were treated hostily instead bacause they were honestly just trying to save anarticle they felt was worth keeping. -- Banjeboi 03:26, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The reason you think this is a colossal waste of energy is probably because you don't think there's a problem. Obviously, there are a lot of people who disagree, or else this discussion wouldn't have started in the first place. I think you should be entitled to present this as a non-problem, and I think you should do your best to present it as such. But the complaints won't go away just because you declare it a non-problem. It will take a group of independent editors say these four issues are non-problems (or that any one of them are indeed problems, and need to be addressed). Nobody is trying to stop ARS from improving articles, or get ARS deleted, or even get anyone in trouble. It's just about keeping ARS on task, and there are legitimate disagreements about what that task is. That's what an RFC will accomplish. After that, there won't be much to argue about. Randomran (talk) 04:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Banjeboi, I'm afraid as I've worked through reading the disputes on this page, I can see that you don't perceive there to be a problem. Unfortunately, that is always the nature of a dispute - one side thinks an action is appropriate, so can't understand why the other side is kicking up a fuss. Unfortunately, there is a dispute over these points, and unless we get our heads out of the sand, you guys will be going around and around in circles over them. Fritzpoll (talk) 10:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Benjiboi, I disagree with your recent use of {{hat}}/{{hab}} to collapse active discussions. You've made your objections to the proposals known. Maybe you could ask Fritzpoll or a neutral uninvolved admin to effect any early closes? Flatscan (talk) 04:11, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

As I stated above, my opinion on this is: The ARS is here to change articles so that they meet the guidelines and policies, not to change policies and guidelines so that those match the articles. Fram (talk) 14:44, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

That's a good way of putting it. I think the problem stems from the fact that many self-selected ARS participants want to do both, and their actions with respect to the latter are confused by some as being ARS-sanctioned. Jclemens (talk) 15:38, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

More that ARS is being used as a springboard for the latter. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 22:15, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Certainly no more than it's being used by deletionists to distract participants from actually fixing articles, it would seem. Jclemens (talk) 06:41, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Do refrain from tossing off accusations of bad faith or conspiracy if you can't back them up. Not everything undertaken in good faith is a good idea or will have good results, and conversely not everything with bad results was undertaken in bad faith.

If you think anyone is here to purposefully disrupt things, kindly name names and explain how. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 23:24, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I see no evidence of ARS working to change policies so that more articles are kept. I see individual editors invested in discussions that certainly may effect those like the recently created bilateral blah-de-da taskforce that will help find a path forward for hundreds of related articles. These types of discussions always go on and it's rather odd to think this or any wikiproject wouldn't be somewhat interested in discussions that affect the work they do. If we are working on, for instance, five bilateral blah-de-da articles and a task force is discussing how to re-organize those articles, it certainly makes sense to bring oursleves up to date on those discussions. Likewise when we had dozens of articles on minor league sports teams and no notability guideline. I think we suggested that discussing if a guideline should exist would make sense. Did we create, run and vote keep everything, hardly. We just tried to address each article on it's own merits because no guideline did exist. We also coached the main editor in soem possible routes forward so they wouldn't end up creating 20-30 articles that were also then mostly deleted. Frankly I see us as often bringing dispassionate editors to subjects they would likely never touch otherwise - I personally have little to no interest in most sports subjects - so helping offer input (here is what policy states, here are options, what makes sense?) can be quite helpful. I'm sorry to sound like a broken record - this again is not can a project be notified issue but how should non-NPOV notifications be effectively handled. I think this section should also close as being repetitious to many previous discussions. Everyone agrees that notifications should be NPOV. No one will get support that projects can't be notified. What remains is how should any project deal with non-NPOV messages. This doesn't require an RfC at all. Seems like some civil and thoughtful suggestion should be discussed that would apply to all projects. -- Banjeboi 00:24, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

As stated above, it might be different if ARS were dispassionate editors with multiple viewpoints, albeit with a common desire to rescue articles from deletion. But what we have now is a group that was assembled by recruiting 300 people with specific views on content and then linking them to content policy discussions. It's pretty obvious what will happen when people get an invite because "you are part of Category:Wikipedians against notability", and then they are linked about discussions about notability guidelines. But in principle, this selective-recruitment and discussion-linking shouldn't happen for any content viewpoint and policy. Again, an invite based on a viewpoint isn't polarizing in of itself, but doing that hundreds of times and linking them to a relevant policy discussion is problematic. Randomran (talk) 01:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually ARS is dispassionate editors with multiple viewpoints, albeit with a common desire to rescue articles from deletion. with the qualifier "on notable subjects". You are presuming that those who work on tagged articles are members and that everyone (or most) were recruited. I wasn't and this project was plenty busy before I showed up. One can theorize that there is some net effect but personally I've not seen any major upswing in participation, articles tagged or discussions swayed greatly and certainly not in any cohesive or organized effort. In fact when the invite tag was first employed it seemed a bit non-neutral and was replaced by a neutral one. That's pretty much what has happened every time something came along that seemed problematic. Getting back on point - any project can be notified of discussion impacting their work. Notices should be kept brief and NPOV. for those that wish to ascribe to inclusionism there is Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Inclusion; likewise Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion may befit those who see a calling to removing items. ARS is neither and has rebuffed either POV. If another seemingly well-intended editor mass invited a pile of editors who ascribed to deletionism ARS would not work to remove them, shame them, coerce or otherwise marginalize them. It is our job as Wikipedians to welcome them. We don't pin badges on anyone accept a welcome tag if they sign up as members. Personally I deal with so many editors and articles I'm rather forced to just treat everything on a case by case basis. Assess it, act accordingly and move on. My experience with some of the questionable postings is that I'm rather immune to pleas of please keep my article or those meanines are trying to delete ____. I think other ARS folks may be along the same lines. Meh, whatever, I'll poke in and see if I can offer anything. We simply aren't to be discounted as the army of like-minded inclusionists as many of these pointy threads would have anyone believe. Are some members? Likely, but I really don't care if they are doing ARS work and helping improve articles. Am I in any way interested in a witch hunt? No. We have the survey idea which seems to be showing support. If we a figure a way to make it happen it could be repeated in a few months then looked at to see if there are repeaters. The goal remains to help editors do better. This proposal can also be ended, IMHO, per WP:Snow. -- Banjeboi 02:32, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Snow closing a discussion because only you say so seems a little...off. I think this is the most likely to end up at RfC Fritzpoll (talk) 05:37, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I can't say I really have anything new to say, and I don't think I'm going to persuade you. I'll just say that I think you understate the effect of recruiting 300 people with inclusionist templates. Regardless of how neutrally the invite was phrased, the invites were sent purely to build a roster of people with a specific content view. That bias doesn't really affect article improvement, so I actually agree with you on that much. Regardless of peoples' viewpoint on content, they'll either improve the article to make it meet our guidelines, or they won't. The problem is when a roster narrowly built upon a specific content view is invited to craft our content policy. Not just because of what it means every time that ARS's new roster talks policy, but because of what it means if other content viewpoints organize a roster in the same way. We would essentially have armies and generals, and thus endless wars. You might not see that as legitimate problem, but other people do, including me. So let's put that question to the community. Worst thing that happens is I'm wrong, and there's no problem, and clearly state ARS's new scope. Even though it wouldn't be the result I want, that would be good for everyone because we can get closure, and people will be able to leave each other alone. Randomran (talk) 06:32, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

First off you keep misleading that we recruited 300 people. We didn't recruit anyone, a sole editor did. It was agreed that any editor could recruit to any Wikiproject but in response we created a neutral ARS invite template. There is no evidence that the recruitment has had any net effect on discussions and ARS never took place in a recruitment drive. Then we build on this wobbly premise - y'know that all those who are ARS members would be swayed to an inclusionist POV - that these now converted ARS talkpage watchers will suddenly show up and all vote keep or whatever the inclusionist POV on some policy discussion and further that that won't be quickly dismissed as empty votes if that's all they are. ARS scope hasn't grown or even changed - the last RfC simply clarified that TfD (and likely other XfDs) were officially ok. This unfounded worry that POV armies of policy fighters will assembly and rise up is rather pointy and seems if it were sent to any RfC it wouldn't mention ARS at all. We are not a unique Wikiproject just one that a handful of editors strongly object to because of thier disdain against all things "inclusionist" and their concern that ARS is swaying toward some POV because of one editors' work. Again this remains a user conduct issue that most editors are simply not that troubled over. No RfC is needed to address these issues. -- Banjeboi 01:22, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter who did it, it only matters that the recruitment drive happened, and it does have an impact. And again, if ARS is being singled out for being inclusionist, it's being singled out in the same way that any group with such a viewpoint-specific recruiting drive should be singled out. It's not up to either of us to decide if it's okay. That's why we're having the RFC. Randomran (talk) 04:09, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

It does matter to clarify that ARS never sanctioned a recruitment drive and this was undertaken by one editor - who, when blocked for it, was unblocked as no canvassing was found to have occurred. No impact or harm has shown to have occurred either. Discussion and XfD are not votes but a consensus process. Volume of votes, in theory that ARS has done any block voting, may have an impact but more likely quality of discussion will be teh greater measure. Even policy decisions that are flawed are, in theory, amended and clarified to fix areas that need correcting. Misplaced Pages is an organic project - it changes and grows. If a policy is great one year and then needs modificatins we do so. I've yet to see a case where ARS either block voted or otherwise negatively impacted some discussion bringing harm to the encyclopedia and this entire thread is one massive pile of assuming bad faith. If Ikip sucessfully recruited some inclusionists as far as i can tell the worst thing that would happen is they waste some energy casting empty !votes. guess what? That was happening before ARS ever existed and would happen regardless if we were here. The likely net result is encyclopedic content will more likely be kept in some form. I see that as a good thing. Can we move on now to finding actual solutions addressing the actual concerns? -- Banjeboi 01:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

The relevant discussion is WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive517#Massive Canvassing of the ARS by User:Ikip. You are correct that there was no consensus for administrator action against Ikip at that time. Flatscan (talk) 04:09, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• As with Proposal 2, I object to this revision of the Con section by Benjiboi. The editing of the Pro section is fine. Flatscan (talk) 05:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Support Revision which neutralizes the context. Throwing gas on an ember is not WP:NPOV, however, dousing the spark is. Schmidt, 05:51, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
  • If we are genuinely trying to find solutions then we should do so neutrally. Both pro and con verbiage should remian neutral. -- Banjeboi 01:31, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Once again, I think we should work to represent both sides fairly. But to the degree we respect neutrality, it's to present both sides of the argument fairly, to the degree that they reflect the actual facts and disagreement. I've altered it once again to try to be more neutral, and present both sides. But if there are any outstanding issues, it would be helpful to know what they are. I'd happily rewrite it myself, and think that would be more productive than the "pro" side writing the arguments for both sides. Randomran (talk) 04:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
    • I wrote a detailed comment above that applies to this section also. Flatscan (talk) 04:09, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
      • NPOV is rather non-negotiable. Focussing on non-issues doesn't help address real concerns. -- Banjeboi 10:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
        • I think it's unfair that you get to rephrase the issue, and then argue that it's a non-issue that should not even be discussed. NPOV doesn't apply to talk page discussions, but if you want to use it, I think you're misinterpreting it:
          • "The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly."
        • There is no issue without multiple conflicting perspectives, is the first thing. If both the pro and con argument agree "there is no issue", then there will be no issue. So to the extent that the perspectives conflict, I'm trying to verify them with diffs. You're entitled to interpret those diffs in a way that there is no problem, no systemic bias in ARS, no risk of further battleground activity if other project spaces follow suit. But you're not entitled to just remove the argument that there's a problem in order to assert "there is no problem".
        • I'm willing to work on the "con" argument if you can offer specific constructive criticisms. Randomran (talk) 16:17, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
          • I'm sorry if you're missing why focussing a propsal statement on the actions of one editor, acting independently, as justifying sanctioning an entire Wikiproject is quite POV. That you're also missing that conflating those newly added members as somehow having any negative influence without evidence and extrapolating this to potential harm on policy discussions, again with no evidence, seems synthesis. Staying on point here, the core question is cana Wikiproject be notified of policy discussions - the answer remains "if kept neutral there really is no issue." -- Banjeboi 22:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
            • Assuming the policy discussion are relevant. Links to irrelevant policy discussions, replaced after being removed, call into question why those links are being added in the first place. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 16:29, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
              • Two points: (i) If they aren't neutrally stated then we civilly work to address that and (ii) any irrelevant things will be posted to Wikiprojects, these as well should be handled civilly - I'm not sure this has much to do with us here, perhaps ___ would be better?, etc. - as we try to help each other. In some cases you may be mistaken and the thread may bring about a healthy idea that may positively effect the "irrelevant" thread. In addition ARS regulars, members or otherwise, cover a fairly wide birth; give that I'm fairly confident that someone with more knowledge than I can help suss out if something will impact what we do. -- Banjeboi 21:48, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
                • Well, as a case in point, when someone said outright "Come back me up at WP:FICT" and I removed only the links, you replaced them and accused me of (vaguely explained) bad faith. So perhaps there are civility and relevance problems. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 21:59, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Outdent. Yes a perfect example where removing the links themselves was hardly needed and civil discussion could have resolved the perceived harm that may have occurred. Again, a user issue not a project issue. -- Banjeboi 04:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Motion to close Proposal 4 as well

Article Rescue Squadron can be directly notified of other discussions, including policy talk pages - does this not seem fairly obvious that any Wikiproject can be notified neutrally? I think so, the rest remains vaguely interesting but hardlt swaying anyone that this remains a behaviour and civility issue rather than an ARS issue. Endless and circular discussions are impeding efforts to make positive and constructive changes. This entire thread shoudl also be closed, IMHO. -- Banjeboi 22:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support. as nom. -- Banjeboi 22:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

30K of copy-pasting from stale discussions

Time to open the RfC

Right, I think we have enough discussion here to establish opening an RfC on Proposals 2 and 4. I'm not sure about the status of Proposal 1 since it has been reopened, but a prior RfC has just concluded. I'd suggest doing the RfC on an ARS subpage at Misplaced Pages:Article Rescue Squadron/RfC May 2009 or similar, listing at WP:RFC, and notifying at WP:VPP and on WP:CENT as well as including a link on this page. I'd establish that there is no need for individual editors to be contacted on this - for a neutral outside view, we need to not notify any individual directly. After a week or two, we can ask a neutral admin (not me, I hasten to add) to close the discussion on the RfC and see what the consensus is. That is, not a poll, although a straw poll format might be adopted. Any thoughts before I go ahead and do this? Fritzpoll (talk) 22:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

• Strongly opposed This remains another disruption to this Wikiproject and needs to stop. POV against inclusionism is fine on individual userpages but thi sWikiproject remains neutral welcoming all editors. If you can't see that targetting ARS in this fashion is divisive then I see pushing for malformed RfC's as more disruption. The issue has always been about specific editor's conduct. The few who engaged in posting non-neutral messages and those who acted rather incivilly towards them. Wasting the community energy on - yet another - RfC is not a constructive way forward and none of the proposals addressed the core issue. Likewise an RfC singling out any Wikiproject is doomed to failure. We don't make special rules as such. We have policies that notices should be neutral. We have policies on civility. If you want to discuss if Wikiprojects can be notified of policy discussion (hint: the answer is yes) you can ask at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Council if an RfC would be an appropriate use of energy on this. -- Banjeboi 01:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Reply to Benjiboi: ARS simply closing the issue is not really fair, and won't really work. The issue will continue to rise every time a notice is posted, and part of the goal here is to get closure. If this RFC is "doomed to failure", then let it fail on its own merits in front of an independent group of Wikipedians. But there's a reasonable basis to treat ARS as something other than "just another Wikiproject", especially in light of its scope as it is defined on the main page, and the recent recruiting tactics.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Randomran (talk • contribs)
    • Well continually harassing any Wikiproject is also unfair. You can drop the recruiting accusation as that was a single independent editor and steps were taken to ensure a neutral invite template representing the group was created. ARS has been extremely patient with a small group of editors disrupting and making pointy comments and imposing their view on what this project should or should not do. If any of this had been handled civilly and neutrally we would only be discussing constructive solutions. Instead a rather pointy RfC in various incarnations has been posited - each one missing the entire core concern and suggesting that ARS as a group is responsible for a few members actions and therefore we all must pay dearly by entertaining this charade of accusations. Non-neutral posts have always been and always will be posted by folks innocently or not to various Wikiprojects. We should handle them civilly per policy. -- Banjeboi 02:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Start handling them at all, and you would have a point. I have not disrupted the project, I have not made pointy comments, and I have not imposed my view: I have raised my views and objections here, out in the open, for everyone to see and discuss. You have asked to take canvassing concerns up with the users involved on their talk page, not here. Even though I considered that a bad idea, I treid it out, only to be lambasted here as an uncivil editor for it. I have tried to discuss things civilly and neutrally, but you have not responded in kind, ignoring the problems and accusing me repeatedly of creating drama. If no members of the ARS (or at least those active on this talk page) act against misuse of the project, then that brings the project into disrepute, despite their good work in saving articles. If on the other hand those people who do point out these problems get vilified (both those doing this regularly, and people who come along once, give their opinion, and get nearly booed away), then the impression of the ARS as a closed community of like-minded editors with a larger agenda than what is displayed on the project page gets only stronger. But could you explain how we all "must pay dearly"? No one is obliged to post here, to spend their time here, or to react to all this. I do it of my own free will, and I hope it's the same for you. Your point is made clear, and continuing discussion is interesting, but not necessary to get it across, so if you feel so badly about it, just do something else. Fram (talk) 13:56, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
        • We have although some is being done offline as this talkpage has been turned, ironicly, into a battleground. To address a user on canvassing issues it needs to be done civilly. If you were wearing your admin hat at the tie perhas you could ask at AN for someone else to intervene and post something if they shared your concern. As it was i recall your efforts as rather incivil therefore relatively unheard. No one seem to share the abuse of ARS concerns, in my experience editors simply focus on rescuing tagged items if they can. I've felt obligated to address the stated and underlying concerns as patience has allowed, if you feel I was incivil or unhelpful I apologize. Efforts to deal with moving forward are rather blunted when our talkpage is circularly filled with pointy threads "concerned" with how bad ARS is in some ways. Many projects have been back-burnered until this recent mess dies down and too can be archived. Meanwhile the work continues elsewhere. If the arguing continues on this page I'll look to admin support to see if my disruption concerns are generally valid because I've never seen such acrimony (I may be lucky is all) on Wikiprojecs as such. We've been very patient but this really isn't going anywhere. efforts to address the issues from February really aren't going to go forward until the fighting on this page stops and I really don't see the ARS regulars as being the source of derision. FWIW, even if this thread is archived in minutes from now to me the core concerns are still valid and need to be addressed. Do I want to do that with those who have been continually arguing here - not really, but they will be done regardless. -- Banjeboi 23:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• Comment: I appreciate Fritzpoll trying to treat both sides fairly and manage this. The only thing I'd add is give us a couple of days to get closure on issue 1, because I'm not sure it was really re-opened for any good reason. Also, I'd add that we really don't need to hear from AMiB and the other people who participated in the AN/Is against ikip, and we don't really need to hear from ARS either. We know how they feel. Let's see how this looks to neutral outside observers. The last thing I'd want is to watch the ARS turn into a WP:BATTLEGROUND between the usual suspects. Randomran (talk) 04:05, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

God lord Randomran, you are not neutral this, you never have been. Stop saying you are. Everytime I explain why you are not neutral you accuse me of bad faith. Do we need this drama reapeated here again? Ikip (talk) 07:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I must agree a bit with Ikip here. ARS detractors have turned this talkpage into the very toxic battleground that is repeatedly suggested as a concern. Is it any wonder that those of us who have invested energy into improving the work we do are quite over the limit of tolerance on this? Really, if you want to help rescue content please do that, if you don't then maybe one of the hundreds of other WP:Wikiprojects will suit your interestes better. -- Banjeboi 02:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose as well as if anything, it is time to continue rescuing articles! Sincerely, --A Nobody 04:06, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose unneccessary RFC, one which acts to bring editors to a battleground where none need exist. Disruption of the project is to be avoided. Schmidt, 05:53, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment for what it's worth, the RFC shouldn't involve any of us here. So we can already get back to editing articles while a group of independent, unaffiliated editors deal with it. When the RFC finishes, so will the drama. There's something to be said for getting someone neutral to sign off on whether or not there's a problem. There is no value to preventing a good faith discussion from taking place. Randomran (talk) 06:02, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
    • This is silly that the members of a project should not be involved in the RFC of the project. Ikip (talk) 07:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Ditto. That's rather laughable that a RfC wanting to sanction ARS in some way would be launched yet some ARS members would be disinvited. -- Banjeboi 02:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Yes, the idea of sanctions is quite the laughable one. But who's suggesting sanctions? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 05:50, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
        • Each of those proposals, in essence, would be limiting or sanctioning this Wikiproject in some way from being notified or allowed to be involved in XfD or discussion on policies. IMHO, each one is a proposed sanction that would violate how Wikiprojects are treated by community standards. If your goal is to stop all Wikiprojects from such activities then this is certainly the wrong venue. If yo're trying to stpop just this one then the RfC is malformed as singling out one of many for special treatment, all, at its core, for user conduct not anything the project did or does. -- Banjeboi 10:33, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
          • There's been a lot of talk about what this project should be and what it should be used for. But you can't "sanction" a project-space page. You can sanction editors, but project-space pages are just tools. Deciding how a tool should be used and what it should be used for is a common policy RFC issue. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that almost every policy RFC is about that. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 23:28, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
            • We may have to agree to disagree a bit here. Theoretical discussions, especially contentious ones, don't seem to be adding to helping this project. They seem to be doing the opposite. We all know very well your take on things as you have repeated them continuously. Great patience has been shown to try to reason with you. If your not having much constructive effect here it might be best for all concerned if you disengage and focus on areas on Misplaced Pages on which you do approve. -- Banjeboi 04:52, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
              • Yes yes. "If you're unhappy with this project for any reason say your piece and go away." - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 10:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support. There are problems with the ARS (mainly with how it is used by some editors, and how most other regulars don't see a problem with these attempts, even if they aren't influenced by them) which taint their good work in rescuing content (articles, no idea if anything else has ever been rescued). The problems this project (or some of the most vocal editors of it) has with scrutiny (as evidenced by the opposition to this RfC, and the suggestions made earlier to ban a critic from this page and to remove all discussions of canvassing, without adressing the canvassing itself) is evidence of it becoming a group which excludes itself from the normal workings of the encyclopedia as a collaborative effort and tries to suppress all dissenting viewpoints. Fram (talk) 07:20, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
  • That is your POV and I believe it is at least slightly off. No one is suggesting that canvassing is OK or that ARS would have approved the recruiting that took place. And no one is suggesting that the issues can't be addressed in a civil and constructive manner. This simply isn't the way to do it. Any concerns of a few editors "taint"ing ARS' "good work" pale compared to the negative tainting of ARS accross multiple forums and the massive disruption to our work here. The only reason that ARS critic was being considered for a ban was behavior, not for criticism. Constructive efforts to address canvassing have actually been underway offline as ARS' own talkpage was turned into a battleground by a handful of critics. No one has suggested that ARS be treated any special or different from other Wikiprojects except by those very same critics who seem to think this Wikiproject should be banned in some way from XfD or policy discussions etc. That we oppose dissenting viepoints is rather laughable as well. Ikips voluminous suggestions have a reasonable success rate but we don't follow them or anyone else's POV lockstep at all. If it' a good idea and may help it is considered and quite a few proposals have positiviely impacted Misplaced Pages in addition to the hundreds of rescues we've been involved in. The only thing keeping us from implementing more at this point is that very same group of editors who seem determined to make a much bigger deal out of a handful(?) of rather non-neutral posts or other posts they deemed as canvassing. I'm glad we've recorded all these posts in one place so we have them for future reference. Sadly it seems fairly obvious that no matter what ARS does as a group there will be detractors anxious to find fault rather then work toward equitable solutions that remain civil and neutral. -- Banjeboi 02:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
    • "No one is suggesting that canvassing is OK", but no one is taking action against it or even recognising that some posts here were pure canvassing. And no one has yet shown that they can address the problem in a civil and constructive way, all I have seen is shooting at the messenger, either for discussing it here ("drama", "bullying", "public shaming"), or for discussing it with the editor directly ("uncivil"!). I have been asked repeatedly to join another wikiproject, giving strongly the impression that I am not welcome here. Removal of canvassing posts is not allowed: discussion of canvassing posts is not allowed. All criticism is considered "drama", even when it is a perfectly normal suggestion to change the haphazard manual way of archiving to an automated one, which met with the approval of most people. When other wikiprojects are canvassed to join a policy discussion, that gets serious disapproval as well. When wikiprojects are asked to join a policy discussion that is outside the scope of the project, things get even worse.
      • (sigh) Again, just because ARS members didn't break out buckets of boiling oil and whacking sticks to punish poor editing decisions doesn't mean some grand green light was lit. I would say that it was better to ignore the posts or respond to the core issue than to edit war and blow any of them way beyond porportion. And actually only those pushing for ARS-wide scope and sanction RfC's are demonstarting they are unable to address the issues civilly. Just because ARS members don't over-react the same way the critics do doesn't mean there isn't concern but we have looked to making constructive efforts while those opposed to ARS have worked to make this talkpage a battleground. You seem to ignore efforts to make constructive changes and only want to belabour an issue that really doesn't seem to be an ARS issue at all. it may be a user issue. And the rather hostile re-actions have been a civility issue but those too have dissipated. And now we're rehashing other stale issues seemingly without any need. The archiving again? I've agreed to let thread stale for a week even if they seem dead, that was your timing for an autobot. Please don't pretend that ARS has to change to meet your needs to see pages of pointy circular discussions when it is only serving to disrupt this project. We added a search mechanism for your claim you somehow couldn't find something. Up until this page being turned into a battleground items were archived chronologically roughly by stale date. We didn't need any other method. If your intent is to continue to argue and disparage seemingly everything we do or don't do perhaps finding or creating another wikiproject would be in everyone's best interest. -- Banjeboi 11:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• • • Benjiboi, if you and the others had adressed the canvassing posts when they occurred, all this could have been avoided. But you are still blaming the messenger instead of tackling the underlying issue. You didn't need to defend all canvassers with the most spurious of arguments (e.g. labelling them incorrectly as newbies, when they were well established experienced editors who started editing in 2005 or 2006), you could have just as easily continued rescuing articles. No one is stopping you from doing that but yourself. Fram (talk) 08:00, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
      • I'm not convinced that had edit-warring not ensued that we wouldn't have addressed the concerns. If someone posts "Please help protect this policy from being deleted" or whatever, the correct response is to civilly work with that editor to either refactor or possibly hat the note so that instead a neutral message is conveyed; and work to help them see that future messages should be neutral as well. Those criticizing ARS, are blaming this group for having posts appear on our talkpage while simultaneously edit-warring and behaving reprehensibly toward all concerned. These proposals all miss the mark. This issue has never been about scope as that hasn't changed and is being used as a red herring, IMHO, it's only been about non-neutral notifications. And, no, it matters not whether it's a newby or experienced editor, our civility policies don't encurage less civil behaviours for certain users. -- Banjeboi 11:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
        • You may not be convinced, but in most cases, people here did not even recognise that there were problems with the canvassing posts. It takes two to edit-war, by the way, so don't blame that on the critics alone. As for "behaving reprehensibly", I don't feel that I have acted in such a way. And the matter is also about scope, as evidenced by the discussion I had with Ikip on this pages before this current RFC: talk page posts here are appropriate when they are neutral and in scope: a neutral message about e.g. a policy change is still an attempt to skew process by contacting a selected group of editors. It does not matter if such posts actually have that result or not, the posting in itself is wrong (misguided or deliberate), and that should be adressed. Examples of edits from this year by some of the most active members of the project: a post like "This long-standing and useful policy is under attack at Misplaced Pages:Editing policy. Members of this project should take an interest since its statement that we should "endeavour to preserve information" is in harmony with our mission." is an attempt to get like-minded editors to join a policy discussion, not to save any articles. Never mind an edit like "I agree with Dream Focus and A Nobody. I am troubled at how we, rescue squad members, are focusing so much on the symptoms of the disease, but not the cure. It is all about organization, and getting the word out. I think the key is finding powerful wikipedians who support the abolition of notability." This is not about saving articles which could meet our guidelines and policies with some work, but about rallying editors to change the guidelines and policies so that articles which are now delete-worthy can be kept anyway. Fram (talk) 13:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
          • Actually neutral policy posts are fine for any Wikiproject and each project themselves should decide if the post merits any involvement. I've learned that I certainly don't know everything so seeing how a policy change may effect a Wikiproject really should be left for that project to decide. The only additional comment to your statement is the perceived issue if an article is incorrectly kept, sorry but just like if an article is incorrectly deleted this can and likely will be addressed. Wikipedians are people and people make mistakes, mistakes can be corrected but volunteers need to be treated politely as we want to encourage each other to make improvements and keep volunteering. -- Banjeboi 23:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• STRONG OPPOSE the issues above have gotten less and less urgent as the days have goes on. Ikip (talk) 07:29, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Could you please stop shouting? You did it in dozens of AFD's recently, you do it here as well. It is not helpful. As for the issues being urgent or not: they are recurring, sometimes in rapid succession, sometimes dormant for a while. Fram (talk) 07:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
• Comment re: independent feedback You are involved. Both sides are. Both sides are writing the arguments. Everyone who is discussing this right now knows how everyone feels, and there is no value to hearing anything beyond what is contained in the RFC arguments above. Moreover, this RFC isn't going to lead to a sanction. It's going to get an independent opinion, which is what this discussion has sorely been lacking. You may not even respect that independent opinion, but at least it will give us some sense of the next step. I'm not sure why people are so afraid of a neutral process. There is literally no value to repeating the same lengthy back-and-forth in front of a frustrated and confused audience. We need a third-opinion, and at this point I hardly care what that third-opinion is so long as it can provide some closure to this issue, and give both sides a sense that they were heard. Randomran (talk) 04:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
  • This isn't a neutral process and it is only serving to further smear ARS as a "source of concern" and disrupt our work. Neutral opinions are well established that (i) Wikiprojects are certainly allowed to have neutral notifications of XfD and policy et al discussions, (ii) that canvassing is discouraged, (iii) that ARS never canvassed, recruited, enabled canvassing or encourages vote-staking, etc. In fact, evidence contradicts all those assertions. (iv) That civility issues are policy and trump guidelines, even if you believe someone is violating a guideline our policies mandate you act civilly to resolve the issues. That seems to have been missing here. (v) A strong record of ARS working to ensure neutrality in all our project space neither condeming or condoning inclusionism/deletionism and instead focussing on the clean-up work. (vi) No credible evidence of ARS violating any policies has been shown, ever. The likely result of any RfC is that ARS will grow in membership and effectiveness. It's happenned everytime someone has tried to delete the project or our template. I see this RfC attempt as more of the same and realistically this is how I would expect the RfC to go. Accusations galore refuted by factual evidence. Acknowledgement that all Wikiprojects should have the same standards of conduct; they aren't responsible for independent actions of members and all are responsible for their own edits. Some - rather minor - alleged canvassing incidents were blown waaay out of porportiom and, as always, ARS members sought constructive and neutral solutions to move forward regardless of the various agendas at play. -- Banjeboi 11:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Neutral opinions haven't said that ARS is merely another Wikiproject, that it's scope is about discussion rather than article improvement, or that the recent recruitment drive hasn't made ARS systemically more inclusionist. And this isn't about blame, this is about preventing polarized discussions. Even if you disagree, you have to concede that this disagreement is in good faith for us to be able to move forward. The only way the disagreement will be resolved is if an independent group of editors look at it. If it just descends into another battleground between ARS and its critics, no neutral perspective will be found, and we'll have to make further efforts at dispute resolution. Randomran (talk) 16:33, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
      • I think you're correct but the fact remains we are a maintenance Wikiproject within the constructs of community standards working in a stressful area of Misplaced Pages. ARS is about rescuing content that is encyclopedic often by adding sourcing but sometimes just pointing out issues that may have been overlooked. It's not our job to fix everything but sometimes we do tremendous work in the regard. No one but a handfull of detractors is suggesting that ARS has leaned towards inclusionism and in fact ARS as a group has opposed efforts towards either inclusionism or deletionism. It's unhelpful and divisive, we just don't do it. Disagree completely with your assessment with how to resolve our critics' concerns. From my experience almost nothing but disbanding ARS will appease some of those concerns. The constructive criticism we try to absorb and act accordingly. -- Banjeboi 23:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Random section break

• What are the plans for presentation of evidence? Will it be limited to diffs in the argument statements? I realize that pointing out specific discussions as possibly influenced is likely to go over poorly. Flatscan (talk) 04:35, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
  • If an RfC happens it will likely not need any diffs as much as a concerted effort to find neutral and constructive solutions. Dredging up past "examples" becomes pointy in and of itself. We already have policies and guidelines galore to help guide any discussions, no need to reinvent them. -- Banjeboi 11:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
    • I disagree that zero diffs will be needed: without any evidence, everything would be bald assertions of opinion. Even obviously false statements could not be refuted. Flatscan (talk) 05:50, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Diffs are generally used to show how editor X behaved poorly. In theory we would demonstrating that sanctioning ARS in some way is needed to prevent harm to Misplaced Pages. Every past claim of harm has been considered and dimissed for lack of actual harm, likely because ARS members - like most Wikiprojects - act independently and are still subject to all other conduct policies. Ergo block voting, canvassing, empty vote etc etc concerns are addressed n a user level as should this entire thread. It's not a project level issue although we are doing reasonable and neutral preventative and proactive measures to address the stated and implied concerns. -- Banjeboi 22:13, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
        • Diffs identify specific edits. A diff could show how editor X behaved correctly. I use diffs to provide context often and in all talk namespaces, so I disagree with your objection to them. Flatscan (talk) 03:28, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
          • Diffs can certainly be used constructively. In this case they wer rather pointy and unneeded. No one was questioning if an editor had done what was being stated, but the RfC concerned the Wikiproject so stronger diffs would show any organized effort to violate community protocols. If any if those exit they would be worth reviewing for substance. This is, after all, talking about doing, not an actual RfC or ANI report. Hopefully the most egregious behavioural issues are behind us and efforts to prevent further problems will prove effective. -- Banjeboi 10:38, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

• I see no reason specifically to restrict anyone from commenting - after all, the summaries require some evidence or statements from both sides. This is also not about sanctioning ARS - I don't know where that impression comes from. It is about asking a question on which individuals here are not agreed, and getting some outside feedback. I don't see any of the proposals as being sanctions - and an RfC cannot make sanctions on any individual or group anyway: it acts in a purely advisory capacity. As to the issue of urgency, I don't really see the issues dying away in the medium term. The best remedies are those that prevent conflict, rather than waiting for a situation to develop again. Fritzpoll (talk) 10:41, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
  • The only "situation" is a non-neutral posting, so as long as there are not over-reactions again there really shouldn't be any recurrance. These RfCs are all about sanctioning ARS or singling us out among all other Wikiprojects as not being able to participate in XfD and policiy discussions et al. That's really all these are about and why they are fundamentally flawed and doomed to waste even more community energy. -- Banjeboi 11:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Well, given that I wrote them, I can only object that you are interpreting my intentions as negative with no basis for doing so. These are simply questions of scope - the fact that there are people here disagreeing (I have little opinion on the topic) suggests that it is best to settle the issues of scope. I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate where you're coming from, but you misunderstand the purpose of a Request for Comment in this context. Whilst an RfC on a User almost always is an effort to seek sanction (although neer able to, since RfC doesn't have that purpose) an RfC in this context is literally that. I am confused - if the point is so obvious, then why worry about people dropping in to agree with you? Talking about a "waste of time" is unhelpful, since there are obviously people who don't feel this is a waste. Fritzpoll (talk) 11:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
      • An RfC is malformed if it's inherently against community consensus. If an RfC was started - shall Rugby Wikiproject be allowed to ignore notability guidelines and have independent threshold?' - it would be laughed away as ridiculous. Likewise any RfC suggesting that any Wikiproject be topic-banned from XfD, policy or other discussions is also preposterous. If you honestly feel Wikiprojects can't be notified of policies then do as has been suggested and seek support from the Wikiproject Council. i think you'll find vast similarities to what I'm suggesting - it won't happen, ergo more waste of community energy. This also completely is a red herringto the actual concerns that were non-neutral notifications, again, a user concern and Wikiprojects are not to be held responsible for members acting independently. Likewise those that edit-warred against them? we don't punish all detractors but try to resolve the issues and behaviours. RfC is unneeded for that. -- Banjeboi 23:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
• Support — This page has rolled-along far enough that the issue needs sorting at a higher level. Personally, I think this project is a solution in search of a problem. Sure, some folks here have improved articles, which is appreciated, but the coupling with AfD is inappropriate; it inherently has a confounding effect on those discussions. Editors intent on improving articles don't need an AfD or a {{rescue}} tag as motivation; just go improve something. There are, of course, other issues with the project and some involved with it. Jack Merridew 12:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

  The goal of the Article Rescue Squadron is to clean up content that would otherwise be deleted. By necessity, this involves examining the deletion discussion to see what the problems with the article are, and then remedying them. Some chose to only comment but in some way limiting those who are working to improve the article to meet stated concerns from !voting flies in the face of concensus. All are welcome to particpate. If done correctly, this article cleanup improves the encyclopedia. If an article you put up for deletion is improved through this process by addressing your concerns and thus kept, you haven't lost. Rather, the encyclopedia has won. -- Banjeboi 23:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

  I believe it says somewhere that the goal is clean-up of notable content that's at AfD; something like that, at least. And I have no doubt that this is your goal. But your project has been hijacked by those who seek to indiscriminately keep content. I also believe this project is inherently seeking to set itself up as an obstacle to deletion; the problem with that is that while we do have a deletion policy, we don't have a rescue policy, which offers a WP:CREEP argument concerning this project. The legitimate goal of improving notable content can be achieved independent of the deletion process and should, across the board, occur prior to that last minute. Article issues are apparent from a reading of an article with a critical eye; the only things to be gleaned from an AfD discussion are individual interpretations of those issues by specific editors. This is merely a wikiproject, which are open to all, and as such has dificulty with members' disparate views of the project's and the 'pedia's goals. The issues here are not being resolved here, or at AN/I, and the proposal to seek the input of a wider group of people not previously involved in this is appropriate. Jack Merridew 07:01, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

  That is your POV and evidence actually counters that assertion. No hijacking has occurred despite the bad faith assumptions that it has. ARS was created to help address that AfD is abused and we have been effective at helping to rescue content if it actually wasn't a good candidate for AfD. Until AfD becomes much more rigorous at enforcing it's own instructions there will likely always be a need for ARS. Indeed people can do rescue work without our involvement and no one has suggested they can't; we are here to organize and assist those who are trying to clean up content and address noted deficiencies - policies on deletion and determining notability, etc are a natural extension of what we do. We are on the front lines dealing with many borderline cases. There is zero reasons the members here should be disinvited to discussing policies and decisions that impact the work we do. ARS members hold a wide variety of views and thoughtful discussion is welcome; disruption, edit-warring and incivility is not - those remain at the core of this thread. As stated above those who disagree with ARS may never be satisfied until they remove the project. If that is your goal you can expect opposition. -- Banjeboi 22:13, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:CREEP, WP:NOTFORUM and WP:TLDR. Aren't there enough of these rambling talking shops already? Just about every page connected with deletion or fiction seems to attract the usual suspects to go on and on at inordinate length but little useful purpose. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
  • How do any of those things apply here? WP:CREEP is about not intoducing unnecessary rules, which this isn't - it's a feedback process. WP:NOTFORUM is an aspect of OR - how is this original research? And WP:TLDR isn't a reason not to discuss issues. If the ARS members don't want to conduct an RfC, and want to isolate themselves from the community's opinion, they should let us know. I am only here to try to help, and am baffled at the turnaround of views on the holding of an RfC from only a couple of days ago. Fritzpoll (talk) 13:36, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

" If the ARS members don't want to conduct an RfC, and want to isolate themselves from the community's opinion, they should let us know" that is a little unfair. Just because some members don't want to conduct a RFC does not necesarily mean we want to isolate ourselves from the community opinion.

WP:CREEP applies because it would be applying more rules on a wikiproject, were none existed before. The other acronyms I am unfamilar with. Ikip (talk) 13:45, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Then let's get the community's opinion. The community can't sanction anyone where no bad conduct is alleged. They'd be providing a neutral and independent opinion on a practice, and we'd decide how to deal with that practice based on that opinion, but it wouldn't mean anyone would get in trouble. Randomran (talk) 16:33, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

We already have the community opinion accross multiple XfDs and at AN, ANI and a very recent RfC about TfDs. This is simply prolonging arguments that are more caged as IDON'TLIKEIT on a project level. I'll add WP:Snow as being relative here as well. -- Banjeboi 23:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• WP:CREEP is applicable in that the RfC seems intended to concern itself with developing rules of behaviour for this project. We don't need such rules - we have too many rules already and making rules is not our business per WP:NOTLAW which is policy. This brings us to WP:NOTFORUM which clearly states that we should "Please try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia." The proposed RfC is not about creating the encyclopaedia - it's about developing rules. So that's two policies we'd be breaking. As for WP:TLDR, other ways of putting it are "be careful what you wish for, you might get it" and "don't get me started!". We should not suppose that the RfC would be one-way traffic or a brief exchange of pleasantries. It would, of course, be an interminable back-and-forth which would do nothing to improve our tempers or, more importantly, the encyclopaedia. To summarise, thanks but no thanks. Colonel Warden (talk) 18:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• We already have an interminable back-and-forth. If one side -- any side -- tries to unilaterally decide what's appropriate, then this will continue to be an interminable back-and-forth. Getting an independent set of editors to look at the situation and sign off on it would at least give us a third-opinion, and maybe allow us to settle this once and for all. Randomran (talk) 18:57, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• As stated above, that's already happened. ARS is still here and those who don't like it may never be won over. That's no reason to be disruptive and that's the concern now. We have been under attack for three months and it's unfair to this project and will be the source of a new admin concern if it continues. Personally I have better things to do then start threads there. -- Banjeboi 23:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Motion to close and archive entire thread

Now clocking in at 191 kilobytes - roughly two thirds of the entire page - ARS critics have demonstrated that no RfC is needed because indeed piles of discussion has taken place that only affirms that ARS has been accused of canvassing and recruiting inclusionists with evidence showing that ARS has done neither and has, in fact, worked to address each concern in turn. The recruitement issue was with a single editor acting independently - they were cleared of accusations at admin boards and in response ARS created a neutral invite template.
The canvassing issues remain centered on some non-neutral notifications placed on the projects talkpage which were then deleted and re-added instead of following civility protocals. This was unfortunate but as a direct result a recently closed RfC affirmed ARS certainly could be involved at TfD and likely other XfD discussions. This thread has centered on can Wikiprojects be notified of XfD and policy discussions with the answer being "yes, they should be neutral though". Various folks have posited ARS create a special process or policing force to ensure no non-neutral posts are placed here. This is counter to existing policies on civility and canvassing. Instead we work with any of those editors, assuming they mean well, to refactor or otherwise neutralizing their notice to mitigate POV if we actually think it's that big of deal. In any case there is no reason to be disagreeable even when there is differing opinions. ARS has consistently shown creativity and adaptibility to address concerns and many of our ideas have helped improve Misplaced Pages in additon to actually rescuing articles. ARS still remains neutral and still welcomes self-identified deletionists and inclusionists committed to improving the encyclopedia. -- Banjeboi 23:07, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support as nom. Perhaps well intended but another ARS RfC is unhelpful and these are user issues that every Wikiproject must address. -- Banjeboi 23:07, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
• Support with a really special thanks to Fritzpoll for his efforts to be a neutral mediator. Ikip (talk) 03:33, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
• Support closure of a process that has distracted so many editors from both "sides" of the discussion away from efforts to improve the project. We all have so many better things to do here . Really. Schmidt, 03:51, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
• Support per WP:NOTFORUM. This activity is too remote from our task of improving the encyclopedia. Colonel Warden (talk) 07:14, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
• Support per above FeydHuxtable (talk) 09:46, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
• Correct me if I'm wrong, but Banj, your position is "This is a maintenance Wikiproject that is completely capable of policing itself in the unlikely case that that is necessary, and capable of defining its own scope. The concerns that recruiting for this project has been aimed specifically are inclusionists are silly given the unilateral and ineffectual nature of that campaigning, and the few outright attempts to recruit favorable editors on this talk page have been ineffectual and politely rebuffed by project members." Every single person in this discussion is aware that this is your position. Please either carefully consider whether your lengthy replies and motions to close add any new insight to anyone who is already familiar with your position and refrain from commenting when no such insight exists, or stop complaining about the length of this talk page. Sheesh. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 16:59, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
  • I have tried to address the many oft repeated accusations and innacuracies as thoughtfully as possible - practicing what I preach as it were. If my comments are lengthy it's to try to wind down irrelevant material that is perpetuating the issues rather than actually addressing solutions. And no I don't agree with your assessment and I think you're aware of that. I also think that if you really want to discuss this please visit my talkpage so we can keep our theoretical discussions and disagreements off a Wikiproject page unless we find some solution that may actually benefit the work here. That same invite extends to any editor. -- Banjeboi 22:41, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
    • You've also opened individual sections to move to close each section, as well as a separate section to move to close the whole proposed RFC before it is even presented to anyone else. I would suspect that at least a tenth of the text in this section is signed Banjeboi, and that is a conservative estimate. Either say your point briefly and trust that people will see it, or don't complain about the length. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 23:44, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
      • The individual sections were nommed seperately as I hoped to help focus on any that were actually promising. None seemed to be unfortunately. That's not to say that the points were invalid. Just as I opposed opening an RfC on your behaviours here I don't see any of these as project issues as much as individual editors' behavioural issues; as such they need to be addressed on that level appropriately. Our entire page is 336k overall, this thread in now 216k which is about two thirds and this shows little promise of appeasing ARS critics' concerns, some which may never be appeased, and other efforts to address the stated concerns have already been enacted and others in process. This is very much the same trajectory ARS has always taken; absorb the criticism and try to resolve constructive criticism appropriately. This is what one would hope would happen. -- Banjeboi 00:23, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support as we really need to return focus on rescuing articles. I can think of plenty of articles that need rescue and I sure would appreciate the help. Thanks! Sincerely, --A Nobody 17:11, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
• It is saddening to me that I am now viewed as a critic despite the support for these issues only a few days ago, and that the simple asking of questions is considered criticism. I am afraid that, ultimately, an RfC will be held on these matters and more since this is essentially a closedown by what is perceived to be one side of these debates that will satisfy noone i the long term - but ARS will be less in control of its content and direction if one is opened externally. Nonetheless, I wish those members now supporting closure of this had mentioned this opinion earlier and saved us all this time. Fritzpoll (talk) 17:15, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Huh?? Your intervention was most appreciated Fritzpoll, per Ikips comment above. And at the time an RFS looked a good idea, at least to me. Its just several of us now feel that the 1 or 2 who needed the original criticism have taken it on board. One of those two being me -I hadnt openly pushed for it but privately I was hoping that ARS might one day have an input into making Policy , as until policy becomes more inclusion friendly many good articles are inevitably going to be lost . But its now very clear to me I was misguided on that one. Both ARS veterans and respected inclusion minded editors like Uncle G clearly feel ARS should stick closely to its remit and not do anything else that risks creating conflict with other sections of the community. And I dont see there being a single person thats not accepting that now its been spelled out. If there was an RFC what current issue is there for it to address? I dont see a single tangible issue we haven't conceded on. Bilateral Relations was until recently an area of conflict, but Ikip's gone to great lengths to alleviate concerns on that, and according to one person who wanted to heavily reduce the number of BR articles IKIPs solution is exactly what he wanted. What more do folk want? An abject apology? I dont think either side should have to apologise – as far as I can tell most everyone was acting in good faith , just from different perspectives. So is there any reason why we cant draw a line under this, as a lesson learned? FeydHuxtable (talk) 17:51, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

If that is really the reasoning, then there is no issue - but that's not how it reads from the motion to close and the previous comments by the proposer. If there is no issue, then there's no need, but I'd be happier if that were clear from editors on both sides of the original dispute Fritzpoll (talk) 17:58, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't fully agree with FeydHuxtable assessment. I think the RfC was just a unconstructive and possible disruptive idea as rather entrenched ideas which allude but don't address the core issues which would be innapropriate for a project RfC. The core problems were civility and behavioural ones that are handled civilly on a user level. Two of the key editors have come around a bit to see that maybe lines were crossed and it didn't help much. The RfC proposals all seemed to suggest that ARS as a group be sanctioned in various ways although the problems seemed centered not at the project level but at the user level, and isolated, generally speaking. Restricting Wikiprojects in any way from even getting neutral notices? That actually would be setting a rather troubling precedent and I don't see that doing anything but stirring up heated exchanges. Some of ARS' critics concerns will never be resolved unless the project is wiped out - that doesn't seem to be on the table here. What remains then is systematically ensuring our project remains neutral and finds way to address the concerns that are reasonable - like empty !votes - and do so benefitting all concerned. -- Banjeboi 22:41, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

You see sanctions where I see requests for comment. You see all these issues from the perspective of holding the very views of the ARS that are part of the dispute. You see me as being disruptive when many editors at the beginning of this process saw it as a helpful attempt. Fine - that's your perogative. I will not post on this board again on this subject. Fritzpoll (talk) 16:37, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

• Related to dismissal of any problems, there is an ongoing effort to revert war "Article Rescue Squadron is no different from any of the hundreds of wikiprojects, except for its scope" into the FAQ of this project. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 23:38, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Two threads to address this have been started below. -- Banjeboi 00:23, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Motion to close and archive motions to close and archive this thread and its subthreads

Could we please stop moving to close every single section and subsection of this? It's rather hard to have new input on anything when the old input is repeated ad nauseum.

Anyone who votes "support" or "oppose" below this will be lit on fire. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 06:39, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Why?

Back to the original question. In the above 50 pages, I count only three reasons editors gave that ARS should not appreciate all of the benefits and priveleges of a wikiproject.

1. Articles for deletion in other subject spaces (i.e. the real WikiProjects) are posted on the respective WikiProject pages because editors who are part of that project theoretically have knowledge of the subject matter, and thus are more qualified than most to judge it...This is manifestly untrue of this page.
2. I can only speak for the Comics Wikiproject, and there neutral reminders (X is up for deletion) are accepted, "come and keep X" isn't...I can assure you that I would react against canvassing on the Comics talk page the same as I do here.
3. We are not a wikiproject

1. Response one: #South Park experts
2. Response two: Has anyone here ever done the same thing as answer #2 has said? The editor says he would do this, but has anyone? I see "come and keep x" a lot in other wikiprojects, without a signal word of criticism. I am sure there is some criticism somewhere, for example if a inclusionist editor posts on a deletionist leaning wikiproject. But it isn't widespread. Would editors be happy if we refactored request to help to be more neutral?
3. Response three: the only difference is we are not a wikiproject in name.

Ikip (talk) 12:04, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Re 2: You might want to have a look at WT:WikiProject Mathematics. It has many AfD notifications, which typically lead to project members outnumbering the other AfD participants. The difference is that for WP:MATH members the questions are normally: "What is it? Where can we find out more? Is it notable?" As a result, the project members are often divided, but often seem to block vote one way or the other. Sometimes this does lead to suspicion and accusations similar to those which this project faces. --Hans Adler (talk) 13:21, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Because Wikiprojects can be created or destroyed rather easily. The ARS should not be a Wikiproject, and to the extent that it "behaves" like a Wikiproject, those behaviours should be ended. The cameraderie (which is pretty minimal, anyways) or shared sense of identity makes ARS a target of people who want to say "See? Look, rabid inclusionists!"--becoming a clique of that sort only damages ARS. ARS should be viewed as an institution like MedCab or 3O, where everyone comes to find the AfD's that could use specific improvements, generally sourcing. Jclemens (talk) 17:12, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

• Comment by Randomran: I don't think we're going to resolve this here, because I haven't really seen much indication that you'll take advice from anyone who disagrees with you, even other people who identify as inclusionists. But the difference between ARS and other WikiProjects is that ARS has always had a special status. When it was created, there were worries that it would become nothing more than an inclusionist lobby group. But that was repeatedly refuted by editors -- across the inclusion spectrum by the way -- who pointed out two reasons why ARS was not an inclusionist lobby group:
  1. The project was confined in scope to improving articles tagged for deletion. (Which everyone agreed with.)
  2. The memberlist is not dominantly inclusionist. (Which a majority of people agreed with.)

On occasion the group spent more time talking at AFD than improving articles. But this was rare enough to be tolerable, and the closing admin could usually ignore the "well-researched, well-verified" !votes when they saw an article with nothing more than primary and self-published sources. This was a small inconvenience considering that ARS was able to save dozens of articles on their merits. Most people across the inclusion spectrum celebrated ARS, and even deletionists had to accept that when an article improved.

ARS has fundamentally changed in two ways. The first is that you contacted around three hundred editors who had inclusionist templates and asked them to join ARS. The second is that the group has been linking to other discussions that don't involve specific articles up for deletion, at a rate that is impossible to ignore. Now, it's impossible to undo the inclusionist recruitment drive, which itself is problematic. But even then, the drama would probably go away if ARS volunterily kept its original scope of tagging articles up for AFD, and improving them, and even participating in AFDs to the extent that they understand that it's not a vote. But when it starts to trickle into policy discussions, joining in discussions at other WikiProjects, or other centralized discussions that aren't about an article up for deletion, you can understand how this undermines the good will that ARS previously enjoyed. If you can't, then I think the only answer is to construct an RFC where we limit input to people who aren't tight with ARS, ikip, or AMiB for that matter. (Being in the middle, I have no friends, but I'd step aside too.) Randomran (talk) 18:21, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

First, as you wrote on my talk page:

"I just want to chime in here and say we need to be able to discuss this without accusing each other of bad faith." (although I never used the term "bad faith")

I would appreciate if you strike:

"I don't think we're going to resolve this here, because I haven't really seen much indication that you'll take advice from anyone who disagrees with you, even other people who identify as inclusionists."

One, this is not the case (see next point for example), and two, we need to be able to discuss this without accusing each other of bad faith. I think we can agree that such comments are not helpful.

Second, I removed any mention of another editor's behavior, even going so far as refactoring out the comments, because of a suggestion of other editors. I would appreciate the same courtesy .

Third, RE: "Being in the middle, I have no friends, but I'd step aside too"

I don't blame you for saying you are neutral, it makes your credibilty stronger to truly uninvoled editors.

WP:FICT was a project which Radorman was heavily involved with and supported. During the WP:FICT WP:RFC I notified several article talk pages that their was a RFC, with a neutral message. I took the unprecendented step of getting pre-approval from two admins before posting the message. WP:FICT had a direct effect on 25% of wikipedia, it would have deleted or merged thousands of articles. Ultimately WP:FICT failed for the third time.

Randorman, your comments here and on my talk page remind me of this very igenous RFC posting all over again. Ikip (talk) 17:33, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Just curious - Ikip, what does "lessen the scope of Nobility" mean?

laterOh, you've deleted it already. It's here: Pixelface is an editor who has attempted to lessen the scope of Nobility as Randomran attempts to increase it.

Just wondering what exactly you're implying re Randomran and, more importantly, why it would have any bearing on this discussion. pablo_hablo. 19:14, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Um, a little disengous Pablomismo, I decided this was not relevant, and removed it on 18:52, 10 May 2009.

You post 22 minutes later at 19:14, 10 May 2009, when the sentence was long gone. At 19:41, 10 May 2009 you post the "later" comment. Ikip (talk) 03:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

ikip, you need to stop accusing me of acting in bad faith. This is about the function of ARS. For the record, you misstate my view on notability, because I've tried to reduce it, expand it, and keep it the same at different times on different issues. You also misstate my role at WP:FICT, where I spent most of my time mediatinng between inclusionists and deletionists because I support reducing the scope of notability in specific cases, such as fiction. But most of all, bringing it up is completely irrelevant. I'd feel the exact same way if AMiB contacted 200 deletionists to join some Misplaced Pages space, and then other people started linking to various policy discussions. Not that it's an act in bad faith, but it's an act that at best will accidentally disrupt Misplaced Pages and turn it into a battleground. I don't want to see either side "arming up", and the truth is that if ARS is allowed to do this, it won't be long before the other side arms up too. Then we'll never get anywhere.

The same is true if you try to make this about peoples' views of inclusion or deletion. We'll never get anywhere. You have other inclusionists who are telling you that it would be better if ARS focused on just articles, and you have deletionists who say to let this go. This is a legitimate area of disagreement. An indepenent RFC will allow us to settle the issue, without getting into the heated and accusatory stuff that other editors were throwing at you. This isn't about your viewpoint, my viewpoint, or even whether anyone broke any rules. It's about the appropriate role of ARS, knowing that the recruitment is what it is. Randomran (talk) 06:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Ikip, you are absolutely right; by the time I had read the lengthy Rfc that you linked you had already deleted that comment, and I didn't notice it was gone. I don't think that you could call that disengous, however (well you could, but I wouldn't). pablo_hablo. 08:25, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Randomran, if you keep saying something long enough will people start believing it? I never accused you of bad faith. You stated that you wanted to explore the history of this page, well, our history and how you came here is part of how others can understand the full situation. Explain this is not bad faith. Bad faith is accusing an editor of this. It troubles me when this is a case of hyprocricy and attempts at censorship. Ikip (talk) 22:09, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Ikip, you used words like "hypocrisy" and "conflict of interest". You examined my claim that I'm neither an inclusionist (like you) or deletionist (like AMiB), and offered false statements that I supported a proposal to delete more fiction articles than are currently deleted under the WP:GNG. I keep trying to talk about the appropriateness of certain recruiting-and-discussion tactics -- regardless of whether these tactics are employed by deletionists or inclusionists -- and you keep suggesting that this is secretly an effort to target your content viewpoint. To me, that seems like you're accusing a lot of people of bad faith. But maybe we're just on the wrong foot, and need to get back on the right one.

1. Is the pending RFC totally hypocritical, or do some people believe in good faith that the scope of ARS is unique and fundamentally different from a WikiProject?
2. Is the pending RFC about whether selective-recruitment followed by discussion-linking should be stopped, or is it secretly an effort to hamstring people based on their views of article content?

There are answers to both questions that assume good faith, and there are answers that don't. If you want to, you can clear that up right now. Randomran (talk) 23:09, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't really appreciate this thrown-to-the-wolves nonsense. There is not a spectrum of "inclusionism" and "deletionism" on which I am one end. About the only bold position I've struck is on campaigning in contentious discussions. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 05:29, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

No wolves. I'm just pointing out you and I have clashed based on content viewpoint too, and your content standards are stricter than mine. That is, I'm not aligned with either you or ikip. This is a situation where I share some of your criticisms about behavior, though, and think we can address it without being accusatory or harsh. Randomran (talk) 16:36, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I probably am not the most welcome person to sound off on this, but I'm going to anyway. The main problem in perception that the ARS has is not that it doesn't enjoy the benefits and privileges of other Wikiprojects, but that in fact it has one that others do not. As far as I'm aware, ARS is the only Wikiproject whose tag goes on the article page rather than the talk page. While it may not functionally make much difference, as it is likely to get categorized anyway, more than anything else this is your big problem with the perception that you're simply "rabid inclusionists". --BlueSquadronRaven 20:49, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

• It also has an unlimited scope. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 21:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
• Counterexample: Misplaced Pages:Cleanup Taskforce. All of the various cleanup-XYZ templates go on articles. But where the template goes is not the issue at hand, nor even one that has been brought up as a factor. (The template isn't even central to rescuing articles. I have two articles currently in mind for rescue that weren't, with one still not being, tagged with the template at all.) The issue at hand is that because of some editors who want a battleground, ARS is being turned into one, and being an ARS "member" is diverging from being someone who actually rescues articles, to the extent that the battlegrounders are now actively attempting to drive away from the ARS people whose focus is working on articles. Uncle G (talk) 01:00, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

• Likewise, I recently helped rescue one article as a merge, another as a cleanup and not commenting at the AfD, and an image (let's not go there yet!), none of which were tagged for Rescue. Tagging articles helps "rally the troops", but isn't one hundred per cent necessary, nor is a lot of the back and forth we've been experiencing lately. We're most effective when we're lurking at AfD'd articles. Radiopathy •talk• 17:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
• Another counter-example is the Orphan project. There's no case to answer here. Colonel Warden (talk) 08:00, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposal to survey recently closed AFD's that employed the {{rescue}} tag

In an effort toward constructive solutions, appropriate for any Wikiproject, I propose we undertake a survey of recently closed AFD's that employed the {{rescue}} tag to specifically look for "empty" !votes. The AfD's themselves could have had any end result and the votes themselves only have to be arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. All those identified (no regard to being ARS affiliated or not) as casting these types of votes get a friendly NPOV note regarding the futility in those activities. No pillory needed, just positive and constructive criticism that woud certianly benefit all concerned. If approved in theory, specifics would be metted out based on if bots or hand counting methods were used.

Note: Please keep comments concise and on point.

• Support as nom. -- Banjeboi 19:12, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
• Support. This should provide a useful pointer of what is actually happening at Afd rather than relying on subjective perceptions. (I'd actually be in favour of a survey of the "!vote quality" for want of a better term across all Afds, but that should be run at a different level.) pablo_hablo. 19:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
• Support: this is a decent idea. It will show where ARS is effective, and show areas where ARS can improve its effectiveness. It may be hard since many articles tagged for rescue are ultimately deleted, though. Randomran (talk) 19:25, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
• You would have to also look to see how in the discussions actually edited the articles as well, though, no? And how can you do that without undeleting the articles? Best, --A Nobody 19:35, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Actually I think we are only looking at quality of !votes on the AfD; if someone edited the article in some way is also not the issue on this proposal - just poorly casted !votes. -- Banjeboi 19:37, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Also, I would hope such a thing works both way, i.e. it is not just about ARS members saying to "keep" but also those who say "delete as cruft" and the like who have no mainspace edits to the articles or show no sign of looking for sources. Sometimes I notice trends like what I reported here, but other times we don't always pick up on the indiscriminate copy and paste "delete per noms" that are basically "delete all articles on fictional characters" or "delete all articles on bilateral relations", without considering their individual merits. Even I will argued to delete some fictional character articles, as at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tony Cunningham (Tony & Friends), just as I am willing to argue to delete rescue templated articles as well, as at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Laws of compression. It's the indiscriminate approach that is a concern. Just because an article is rescue templated doesn't mean it can be rescue and at the same time, just because it's on bilateral relations or about a fictional elements doesn't mean it can't be rescue as well. Sincerely, --A Nobody 19:50, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Hey now, I called WP:DUCK on the nominator days earlier for Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Mibbit... I suppose it just took them doing something a little more widespread before becoming worthy of even more AN/I attention ;) Tothwolf (talk) 02:48, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Absolutely, it should highlight all empty !votes. pablo_hablo. 19:53, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
  • An administrator can look at deleted articles and their edit histories, if that was necessary. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 21:45, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
• weak oppose to oppose The suggestion is not appropriate to discussions on curbing the effectiveness of ARS. Ikip (talk) 20:57, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Changed to support. Ikip (talk) 12:14, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

• • One of the perceived canvassing issues is that the {{rescue}} tag attracts poor !votes. This would help address the issue but do so neutrally. Neither targeting nor excluding any editors but simply on improving the atmosphere at AfDs. -- Banjeboi 21:08, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Who's to say that the AFD template itself doesn't attract weak "votes"? We have, after all, had "arguments to avoid" to style votes long before the ARS and certainly in AfDs in which the ARS is not involved. Sincerely, --A Nobody 21:13, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
    • That's true, and arguments to avoid are regularly bandied about at Afd. But I think the intention here is to find empirical evidence of whether adding the {{rescue}} tag encourages null !votes. pablo_hablo. 21:19, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
      • I wonder if it encourages some to make bogus delete "votes" as I have seen a few times now where someone makes a joke about it being tagged for rescue in a delete "vote" that doesn't really seem to focus on the actual article itself. Sincerely, --A Nobody 21:26, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
        • But no other wikiproject has to go through such scrutinty. We should include WP:VG, for example in this study, and maybe one other, say warhammer. Ikip (talk) 22:15, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
          • Or better yet, as I have said many times on this page, use our time toward rescuing articles... Best, --A Nobody 22:18, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
• Comment Permission is not required for this. Per WP:BOLD, if you think this is a good idea then go for it. Colonel Warden (talk) 21:16, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Indeed. This is less a "get permission" issue than a "find someone to bell the cat" one. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 21:45, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
    • I was looking to find constructive solutions and work toward finding common ground. If we find a bot way of doing this as well that may be useful for a wider scope. -- Banjeboi 01:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Bots that analyze (as opposed to bots that do things) don't need any special permission, I believe. Someone just needs to do this, if they want it done. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 03:36, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. This would say nothing about vote-stacking, nothing about this project, and would just disenfranchise the opinion of people who haven't realised that they're required to state the bleeding obvious in order to not be disenfranchised. Rebecca (talk) 02:31, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Huh? Jclemens (talk) 02:43, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
• Support with Modifications In order for a comparison to be valid, it would be better to include not just "rescue" tagged AfD's, but a much broader selection of AfD's. Only then can one see if the tag attracts more improvements than "empty" votes. Note that I do would like to see "keep per improvement" and "keep per sourcing found" votes called out separately. I call them substantial votes, but realize that others might not. Jclemens (talk) 02:43, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
• Wrong focus Of more interest is the extent to which the articles have changed while the rescue template is up. Of course this can only be conducted on articles that are kept. And of course either study can be conducted by any editor willing to put in the work. Taemyr (talk) 17:45, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
  • I think this is an interesting question too. Either would be illuminating. Randomran (talk) 07:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. I'm not looking to do a big ol' comparison per se but just identify empty !voters who may also be ARS members (official or not) who should be coached to improve. For neutrality all empty !voters should be contacted with the same message. The stated concern is empty "keep" !votes associated with ARS. If those are stopped then that's a step in the right direction, right? And if we also help stop other empty votes then even better. In thinking on this further I'm not sure a bot would be able to determine all this so it may have to be the human bots instead. or perhaps an initial survey to see what the empty !votes are and extrapolate those findings for a bot. -- Banjeboi 01:14, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I think it's important to recognize that the worst thing that happens is we find a few specific instances where articles aren't being improved. That's information that we can use to teach some members of ARS to be as effective as its best members. If people do a better job of improving articles, aren't we helping ARS achieve its purpose, and ultimately Misplaced Pages's? Randomran (talk) 07:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
    • This survey wouldn't address that, only empty !votes at AfD. And the hall of fame list is majorly outdated; we've had hundreds of rescues since then but no clear idea how best to capture that and strycture the chart to express that. -- Banjeboi 03:30, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Err, I think that's what I meant. We'll find a few instances of empty !votes. That's just a way to help people make more effective arguments, and contribute to improving the article in ways that will help rescue, and help Misplaced Pages. There's really no downside, assuming a few other editors have the time and energy to do the analysis. Randomran (talk) 04:15, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
• Support - I support but only because I can't think of a better word. It sounds like a great idea and I hope that it gets completed but I don't really have any interest in participating. OlYeller 03:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
• Strong support, excellent idea. Stifle (talk) 08:25, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
• Strong Support to survey all empty !votes, as they are sadly just as likely to be found in terse delete opinions as they might in terse keeps. I recently worked on an article that was nommed as an unreleased future film that failed Crystal. The first several !votes were all delete as crystal, or delte as unreleased, etc... following in the footsteps of the nom. I spent 5 minutes in deiligent search and found that the film had not only been released the year previous, but that it had won several festival awards and received significant coverage. My squawking about poor WP:BEFORE starts to sound like bad faith in what would be hoped is a good faith nomination, but I have seen this happen far too many times. Its beyond frustrating. There has to be some way to curtail continued lack of or sloppy use of BEFORE, or lack of consideration of WP:ATD, WP:PRESERVE, or following the instructions at WP:DEL. If this survey helps underscore poor !votes and results in suggested solutions, I am all for looking into the situation and I'd like this survey to have a wider scope. Time to open wiki-school and wiki refresher courses. Schmidt, 06:05, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Contest 2?

See Misplaced Pages:Article rescue contest. What a splendid idea! Why not start a Misplaced Pages:Article rescue contest II (after all it has been four years since the first, so in the spirit of the olympics...)? Let's focus on something that is simultaneously fun, rewarding, and constructive! Not opposed to Misplaced Pages:Article rescue contest 2 or Misplaced Pages:Article rescue contest 2009 or something as an alternative name. Best, --A Nobody 07:06, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. How would it work? Randomran (talk) 07:21, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, I suppose like the first one, no? I can tell from such discussions as Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Skeptic (film) (with rescue credit due mostly to Collectonian, I think?) and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/German-Libyan relations (well, I think I deserve the lionshare of credit on this one! :)) that editors do have a motivation to rescue the rescue templated articles, so I do not see why they would not be interested in such a thing as an added incentive and good spirited competition. Best, --A Nobody 07:22, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I looked over the first one, and I guess I wasn't clear on everything. Would we start rescuing articles on some certain date and keep track of our efforts over a few weeks, or would editors begin submitting articles they've rescued over the years to see which ones are the most improved? Randomran (talk) 07:31, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I like to see things as moving forward, so rather than focus on ones rescued in the past for which we can already claim say the little life preservers I have on the top of my talk page, let's focus on ones currently under discussion or that will be and yes, we can set some target date. The ARS was founded on July 13th, so it can be an anniversary event say between now and then. Sincerely, --A Nobody 07:35, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good. I think a race to see who can do the most or the fastest is always fun. But it may also be fun to see if people can take at-risk articles to GA or even FA status. It's very satisfying when you turn someone else's garbage into Misplaced Pages's treasure. There's a lot of different ways to approach a contest. But even though it's a competition, it's probably best to think of a format that will maximize the benefit for Misplaced Pages and its overall spirit of collaboration. Randomran (talk) 07:41, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

First, let's agree on the name, i.e. which redlink to make blue above and then I will gladly began drafting the contest. As the proposer here, I would see my own role being as helping draft the proposal and just helping out on all the various articles rather than being a judge or contestant, although I would rather have a simple say 6 day vote open to all ARS members than a judgement deal. Sincerely, --A Nobody 07:43, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Any of those would be a good idea. Let's get some feedback from the others. Randomran (talk) 15:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good. There is/was? something called a bounty board as well on here, maybe a rescue bounty board would be another motivating factor too. Best, --A Nobody 17:53, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

• Comment Once the current drama dies down I would support this. It may make sense to dovetail with building up our "How to rescue" page to assist newbies as well as guide non-newbies towards building GA level articles. For continuity for future use it may make sense as well to start it July 1 so it can cover half of 2009 and a new contest can cover the first half of 2010. -- Banjeboi 01:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Will the drama ever die down? I say start the contest now A Nobody, knowing you will be doing the majority of the work. Ikip (talk) 05:03, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Gladly, but I would like us to agree on a name for it first. Thanks! Sincerely, --A Nobody 05:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

How about Misplaced Pages:Article rescue contest 2? Be Bold, create it, we can always rename it later. Ikip (talk) 07:38, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I have started it. Sincerely, --A Nobody 16:39, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Wow, 2 year aniversary, you are starting a annual trend ! Ikip (talk) 17:23, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, annual would suggest we do it every year; that first contest was I think back in 2005, no? Sincerely, --A Nobody 17:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

With respect I suggest starting it July 1 so the focus can be on a 6-month article improvement contest and not on ARS' anniversary. In promoting it we can advertise it as a way to mark our anniversary. Also rather than yearlong contests I wonder if two 6-month contests a year make sense to attrack those (like myself) who may not be into a year-long commitment or repel those who show up mid-year to a contest that is half-over, etc. -- Banjeboi 02:33, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I like the anniversary date myself. Was the last contest for 6 long months? That seems to long, maybe two weeks, one month max. Otherwise people will start losing interest. Ikip (talk) 16:34, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

To me the work needs to be in porportion to the benefits. I think six months is a good time period and if we want to start a new semi-annual one we simply copy paste. The goals, IMHO, is to not simply look to rescue but to instill quality work, if our top contestant rescues and takes five articles from AfD to GA that rather speaks for itself. Also a broader time frame lends itself to wider promotion in appropriate venues. As part of that promotion we should explain what ARS is in a brief boilerplate which can include our anniversary. Theoreticly, article rescuing has always occurred so it's not so much about ARS but the concept and getting better articles and editing. We are but one part of the solution and should be realistic in that many people rescue without our involvement at all. -- Banjeboi 00:05, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

"Article Purgatory" proposal at WT:AfD

Please see my idea/proposal at Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion#ARSify.3F Jclemens (talk) 17:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

interesting suggestion. Ikip (talk) 15:32, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Discussion to end edit-warring of including "objection statement" to ARS' FAQ

The following was removed from ARS' FAQ by an editor who has a history of objections to ARS:

1. What if I object to what Article Rescue Squadron (ARS) is doing?

   ARS is no different from any of the hundreds of Wikiprojects in that we collaborate to improve content as a maintenance project. Our scope is not subject focussed as much as policy-focussed to determine if content adheres to Misplaced Pages's policies on sourcing and notability. Any editor committed to improving the encyclopedia is welcome to help here as well as at any of the other projects representing a variety of views and interests.

Any constructive suggestions to wording changes welcome otherwise I'd like to re-add as it has indeed been a source of disruption so spelling out clearly what our focus is and that other Wikiprojects exist which may be in line with someone's views seems appropriate. -- Banjeboi 00:13, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

See the entire proto-RFC above for objections. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 00:19, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I can't believe that this is a question that is in any sense "frequently asked", unless it is a question that editors are asking each other via e-mail. I've never seen it asked on this page. pablo_hablo. 00:19, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

The spirit, obviously, is to address those who simply object to ARS which is sadly evident. Casting aspersions on all project members and non-objectively characterizing all members as part of some cabal. This is to help address that not everyone has to agree with what every Wikiproject does. In my experience if someone doesn't like LGBT issues they don't sit around the LGBT project talkpage harassing us. IMHO, that is what has been happenning here in many subtle forms. If any of these issues were dealt with civilly I doubt we would need such a statement but there you go. -- Banjeboi 00:31, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

It does not address. It dismisses. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 00:50, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

What could we add that may help ease that then - constructive suggestions are always welcome - or what? -- Banjeboi 01:10, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

How can you ease the problem? Dispose of this. "What if I object?" "Whatever your objection is, here's a statement about why this project is good and why you shouldn't have any objections." It doesn't specify any objection, it doesn't address any objection, it's a non-question. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 05:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

And on top of this, it says that this project does something it explicitly does not and should not do. It is not the place where people "determine if content adheres to Misplaced Pages's policies on sourcing and notability." This is not an article deletion thinktank. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 08:48, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Ben, I think it was a really good idea that you brought these discussions here. I disagree with you on some things, but this was a really good call. thanks. Ikip (talk) 02:55, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

AMIB, you have caused a huge amount of disruption to this project, repeatedly over at least the past few months. In short this statement is to address your behaviours and anyone else following in your footsteps. Although others have come, made their peace and moved on, or been resoundly rejected in various community forums, you have stuck in my mind and that's unfortunate because it's for the worst of reasons. I look forward to the day we interact and I have to be reminded that we clashed over several months; that seems like a ways off at this point. You can continue what feels like attrition warfare but the next step is more eyes on your actions rather than what seems like an effort to in some way mitigate ARS' work. Is this a rather pointy statement? Perhaps, I hope it will curb some rather pointy behaviours. Even if you think you're right doesn't give you license to turn this project into a battleground. And yes we very much look to policies to decide what sourcing is indeed reliable; we look to policy to guide us on what subjects are indeed notable, etc. etc. -- Banjeboi 10:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Wait. So you're saying that people have come here with problems, been rebuffed, and left with nothing happening, and that's good. But I stayed to see change effected, and that's bad. This is revealing, but not in the way you think. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 03:15, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Please desist from putting words in my mouth, that really seems like arguing semantics when the spirit expressed, both here and elsewhere, is that constructive criticism to any Wikiproject is fine and welcome. bullying and other incivil behaviours are not. -- Banjeboi 04:56, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

AMiB, I don't think you're going to get anywhere here. When editors start saying things like "A FAQ section is to help curb alleged problems - unclear why you would be opposed to solving the very issues you seem to be contiually alleging exist", there is a reasonable chance that they actually believe what they are saying (i.e. that dismissing all forms of criticism is a good way to solve a problem). It's good to know the Richard Nixon school of crisis management is still going strong, but Misplaced Pages pages shouldn't try to advertise in favour of their existence. This just makes it even more of a "us vs. them" battleground. Ben,Trav,Michael, I think you're shooting yourself in the foot here. While you may, by acting as a group, be able to do pretty much what you like with the pages here, don't forget that when the day of judgement comes (and we all know it will), every over the top green-e-in-the-signatures-type-thing will become an argument for your opponents. yandman 09:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Yandman, this really seems like back-handed compliment loaded with bad faith. The posse mounted against this Wikiproject in short is alleging there is an inclusionist cabal run amok at ARS yet the proof of such remains woefully thin and mostly absent. The few reasonable concerns as pointed out by uninvolved parties is (i) watch for possible problems when ARS is involved in non-article XfDs; (ii) notification posts to ARS need to be neutral and (iii) empty !votes should be discouraged. Guess what? Those issues have been and are being addressed. Veiled threats notwithstanding, constructive critism has hardly been dismissed. I can't think of any instance where someone's valid concerns haven't been addressed. Whether they like they answer they get may certainly be another issue. -- Banjeboi 10:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I can't imagine how you thought this would be productive. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 23:24, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Discussion to end edit-warring of including "policy notification statement" to ARS' FAQ

The following was removed from ARS' FAQ by an editor who has a history of objections to ARS:

1. How can I get ARS to help win my policy discussion?

   First off, like articles, policies and content are not exclusively controlled by any individual(s). If you think ARS should know about a policy discussion you can post a neutral notification like "There is a discussion about foo at _____." Avoid the appearance of telling anyone how to think of the discussion - you are inviting people to participate, not to think or vote a certain way. See WP:Canvassing for clarification on this.

Any constructive suggestions to wording changes welcome otherwise I'd like to re-add as it has indeed been a source of disruption so spelling out clearly and neutrally that policy discussion notifications need to be neutral seems appropriate. -- Banjeboi 00:13, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

That's not the objectionable text, and describing people as having "a history of objections to ARS" is ridiculous poisoning the well. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 00:18, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I can't believe that this is a question that is in any sense "frequently asked", unless it is a question that editors are asking each other via e-mail. I've never seen it asked on this page. pablo_hablo. 00:19, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

this is a modification of my original posting, which was completly deleted by AMIB. one of the three 3RRs in the past 11 days.

AMIB is starting his fourth edit war by deleting the FAQ tag. At least AMIB has not deleted the FAQ page entirely yet, with no consensus before hand, as AMIBhas with other ARS subpages he didn't like before.

"a history of objections to ARS" WP:SPADE Ikip (talk) 00:24, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

And one of your two 3RRs in the last three days. And I could point out that you have a history of canvassing for favorable editors here and elsewhere. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 00:26, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I only had 2RRs.

I think we are discussing reversions of this template. Ikip (talk) 00:29, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

• AMIB, if you descibe the text is "not objectionable", why did you persist in deleting it and related content? Hoping this is not the case, edit summaries such as THIS might be perceived as edit warring and an assumption of bad faith. Let's discuss. Schmidt, 00:44, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

A Man In Black that is the text you deleted. If you don't object to it then we can re-add it without further rehashing? Pablomismo, again this is a preventative measure to address the stated concerns that non-neutral notifications are an issue. This is a constructive solution to a problem that has been stated as a concern. If it's an easy solution then it would seem to be logical to try it. -- Banjeboi 00:45, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

It's still junk. Nobody has asked this question, and the answer is lifted directly from pro #4 above. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 01:04, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I didn't lift it from anywhere, FWIW, and don't appreciate it being dismissed as "junk". Again, this seems to directly address a stated concern so clearly helping prevent future occurences would seem to be a win-win situation. -- Banjeboi 01:13, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

It is junk. It doesn't address a stated concern; it encourages people to do something that has been repeatedly questioned here. No, you really shouldn't be putting any notice of a policy discussion here; there are lots of noticeboards for them and this isn't one of them. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 05:18, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be missing the point completely. Any Wikiproject can, and many are, notified of policy discussions; if you feel that should not happen then you need to address that on a system-wide basis - that no Wikiprojects can be notified of any policy discussions, no matter if it's neutral or not. Until then ARS will be treated like every other project. Your disdain for this project is well documented but finding new ways to vex us is only causing more emnity and casting further doubts on the wisdom of your participating here. You've had som ereasonable insights but coupled with the behavioural issues you're tap-dancing beyond the patience of this project. -- Banjeboi 10:01, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

There is no divine right of notification. You let a Wikiproject know about a policy discussion when it's relevant. Thing is, this project explicitly excludes policy from its scope.

As for the rest, your disdain for anyone even remotely critical of this project is well documented but going off-topic to attack people instead of issues in order to vex them is only causing more emnity and casting further doubts on the wisdom of your participation here. You've had some reasonable insights, but coupled with the behavioral issues, you're tap-dancing beyond the patience of this project. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 23:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

A Man In Black, please refrain from this antagonism. Your wishes for how others should conduct themselves don't seem to be supported by community standards. Likewise your own behaviours are increasingly violating the civility policies that have been set by the community. In response to this specific idea - that ARS in any way excludes policy - you may need to re-read the one sentence that states anything about policy. The Article Rescue Squadron (ARS) is not about casting keep votes or making policy simply to ensure that nothing is deleted. This doesn't even imply that we exclude policy, if fact it implies that we concern ourselves with policy but not to ensure that nothing is deleted. You can try to trun that any way you wish but the meaning is inferred explicitly - we don't try to bend policy to prevent deletion. -- Banjeboi 02:54, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

What interest does this project have in policy, then? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 03:01, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Policies that affect any Wikiprojects work would naturally be of interest to them. I'm really not interested in further engaging you on this so I hope that's clear enough. -- Banjeboi 05:07, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Policies such as? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 09:55, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I just don't understand. "junk" "cruft" "nuke and pave"

First, how do you think editors feel when you and others describe their contributions as "junk"?

Second, is a "nuke and pave" attitude towards editors' contributions compatible with rescuing articles? Ikip (talk) 02:53, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

You have a real problem staying on topic. If you were here for something other than stirring up fights, you'd address what I was saying, instead of how I said it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 05:18, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I am not the person who has deleted other editors pages, or had three 3rr in the past 11 days, I have never called you a troll here. So accusing me of stirring up a fight seems like WP:KETTLE, and much more. You are after all, calling the editors contributions "junk". Were you expecting a positive reaction? Ikip (talk) 05:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I eagerly await your defense of the utility of this topic. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 05:43, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

AMIB I eagerly await you starting to act like an adminsitrator is expected too. Don't demand editors to act a certain way when your edit history here and beyond shows that you have been less than civil and cooperative on numerous occasions.

Civilized discussions don't magically develop when one editor is calling other editors' contributions "junk", starting three 3rrs in the past 3 days, deleting editors pages, etc., etc. 05:50, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I eagerly await your defense of the utility of this topic. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 05:54, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's get back "on topic". I do not myself see the text you wish deleted as "junk", as there have been reams of discussion above on this page about how some see ARS as some sort of "cabal with a mission" (not a direct quote, just an impression), and the questioned text answers a cogent question newer editors might have if they think to join ARS specifically because they beleive or wish we have some sort of trick other than hard work that saves articles. You are an experienced editor, certainly, but that FAQ is for the uninitiated, as they might have expectations that are not realistic.

When they ask "'How can I get ARS to help win my policy discussion?" The answer of course is that they cannot "get" ARS to help them "win" anything, as this is not a contest. They are encouraged to improve their articles, get them properly sourced per guideline, and then hope that work is seen in a positive light at an AfD if it goes there. The FAQ answer

"First off, like articles, policies and content are not exclusively controlled by any individual(s). If you think ARS should know about a policy discussion you can post a neutral notification like "There is a discussion about foo at _____." Avoid the appearance of telling anyone how to think of the discussion - you are inviting people to participate, not to think or vote a certain way. See WP:Canvassing for clarification on this"

addresses a valid concern that should be addressed, and advises that neutral notification seeking input are allowed. The FAQ answer might benefit from tweaking, but educating newcomers in the proper ways to improve the project is of benefit TO the project. Schmidt, 05:44, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Then address that specifically. Tell people who are here on a mission to go elsewhere. Don't tell them to temper their message, to advertise less obnoxiously. If you are here to do something other than improve articles, then go away. There's doubtless a more diplomatic way to suggest that, but bottom line this is not a general-purpose deletion noticeboard. Politely misusing this project is less problematic but still problematic. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 05:48, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Basically, if "This is the place to work on improving articles which are up for deletion, other business goes elsewhere" were quietly and effectively enforced, I suspect the RFC above goes away. I go back to having quiet qualms about the {{rescue}}/{{ARS/Tagged}} mechanism as a whole without having any argument sufficient to convince even myself, Ikip finds a new cause to champion (and he's got at least one more productive one on his plate), and this whole project runs a lot more smoothly. It'd just need to go smoothly and efficiently enough to keep anyone from rising to righteous defense of anyone or anything. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 06:06, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Your concerns are well known however it's helpful that you remind us this is an ongoing issue of hounding Ikip. This Wikiproject is not going to cave into your intimidation and your disruption here needs to end immediately. Whatever you had to say has been repeatedly stated, responded to and in most cases refuted. Your continued presence is now disrupting us from moving forward. Time spent addressing the valid concerns is instead being spent to entertain your circular and somewhat mistaken concepts on what Wikiprojects do and how they conduct themselves. -- Banjeboi 05:07, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Can someone give me a cookie when an ARS member actually answers the substance of a post here rather than dismissing it as 1) vindictive 2) a personal attack 3) disruptive?

No seriously, I don't get why you don't make any of these changes that are being suggested. I'm rather distressed to peak here from finals hell and find that discussion of my suggestions (which were supported by Masem and PhilKnight, two users known for being even-minded and fair) was arbitrarily archived by you. If you care about the goal of this project—saving articles, which again, no one here has any objection to—I don't see why taking the steps being suggested is difficult at all. Swear off anything remotely to do with policy discussions, have people who work on rescuing an article recuse themselves from the article's AfD (after noting they made improvements), and appoint coordinators to enforce this. It's startling that so many former ARS members say that the current course of the project is blatantly wrong and that the current members apparently don't care. None of these means you can't go and argue against evil deletionists on X policy discussion; all it means is restoring this project to its original aims as a nonpartisan group. You have people here bitching about problems because there are problems, not because they're all random blokes who have a beef to pick with the ARS. Again, that so many members of the ARS that were around when it was founded have a problem with the ARS' current course is indicative of a problem. Fix it. — sephiroth bcr 07:59, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Sephiroth, I don't think anyone takes you seriously. You are a delitionists, someone who mindlessly tries to destroy things you don't like for whatever reason. Why are you even on this page? You naively believe you are helping the wikipedia by deleting articles that some would find interesting, which aren't hurting anyone by existing, and which no one would find unless they were searching for them to begin with. That sort of mentality is not compatible with what we are trying to do here. Dream Focus 22:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

This is extremely disappointing. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 22:07, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

policy/FAQ

Instead of having a bunch of fake "frequently asked questions", then, why not just have a statement of the scope and aims of the project? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pablomismo (talk • contribs) 11:05, 17 May 2009

Ignoring your rather uncivil assertion, we already have those statements on our project page. -- Banjeboi 10:59, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Ignoring your assertion of incivility though, do you not think that if ARS is to have a FAQ section it should be a list of frequently asked questions? As I understand it that is what the acronym usually stands for. pablo_hablo. 18:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Calling our FAQ "fake" is uncivil, unhelpful and counter-productive. And frankly you seem to be simply arguing that if the exact wording of question X didn't occur then it's invalid. Sorry, you seem to be more interested in just arguing. I think based on the vociferous debate of a handful of folks a concise FAQ may help nip this battling in the bud. ARS members, well no one really, needs to be treated this way. FAQ is to help those who may actually need some guidance while our project page seems to fairly enough address any scope questions. -- Banjeboi 02:54, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

• I agree it should be named something else. Answers to what may be common questions, or explanations to further the understanding of what the squadron is about. Dream Focus 22:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Newby editors survey

Misplaced Pages's Usability and Experience Study is a somewhat lengthy but interesting read for those concerning with how friendly and usable Misplaced Pages can be. The bits about references may help inform writing some of our how to material. -- Banjeboi 10:57, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

thanks for the link, I enjoyed it. It seems like many of the problems they address are system wide, which we have no control over. But the "how to" may help in some of these respects. Maybe there are other how-to's which are already available which would be helpful and which can be incorporated? Ikip (talk) 04:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Definitely. I think for our part we should emphasize the most basic way to ref a sentence and feel free to ask for help. Once we're clear of the current drama I feel i can devote more time to the How to content -- Banjeboi 05:10, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

• WikiProject Article Rescue Squadron
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press