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Talk:Heb Ik Ooit Gezegd

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The contents of the Heb Ik Ooit Gezegd page were merged into Have I Told You Lately#Heb Ik Ooit Gezegd on 7 August 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history.


WP:NSONG

Most of this article was copied over to the Van Morrison "Have I Told You Lately" article, and then turned into a redirect; the rationale given was WP:NSONG, which says: "Songs with notable cover versions are normally covered in one common article about the song". Using the word "normally" instead of "must be" suggests that while routine, it is not set in stone.

1. The WP:NSONG criteria is already met. There is already a mention of the Dutch language cover in the Van Morrison (VM) article, under the "Other versions" section. But I found that there was enough material to make a separate article, so I did. I was going to add a link to the VM article to redirect interested readers to the resulting Clouseau article. Also, the typical cover version blurb that is rolled into a larger article per WP:NSONG is usually normally pretty small, usually at most a few lines of text, i.e. not enough material to warrant its own article and usually not notable enough either. That is not the case here.

2. The two songs are different enough (titles and lyrics in different language; the Dutch lyrics are significantly different from the original English lyrics) that they won't easily be mistaken for each other. With little likelihood of confusing readers, there's no apparent need to merge the two.

3. The merged section is too large for the target article. This article is ~9k. The Van Morrison article is only about 30k 22k, so even whittled down to ~8k, the added/merged info still takes will take up ~25% of the VM page. It's really too big to roll into the article, and additionally, is notable enough to warrant its own article.

4. The merge doesn't meet the four criteria in WP:MERGEREASON (Duplicate, Overlap, Short test, Context). So in addition to the above 3 reasons, and considering that, on the balance, merging under WP:NSONG doesn't appear to be mandatory (at least not under the conditions in which this merge was implemented), there is little reason to merge the info/turn this article into a redirect. However, any additional input is appreciated. Thanks.

Big universe (talk) 11:26, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Let’s respond to you line by line, Firstly as you say, WP:NSONGS says ‘normally’ rather than ‘must be’ is because, simply, there are no ‘musts’ in any WP Guidance and it is shame that every ‘that’s-my-article-and-nobody-is-going-to-change-it’ editor thinks it is a free pass to do whatever they want on WP. Not true.
  1. You are correct, the Dutch criteria is met, if it hadn’t been I would have merely created a redirect without copying any details across. However, WP:NSONGS states Songs with notable cover versions are normally covered in one common article about the song and the cover versions. And as the text of your article says, The song is a Dutch-language cover version of the 1989 song "Have I Told You Lately" So on point one you have confirmed you are wrong.
  2. You claim the two songs are different because of a change of lyrics, yet neither article covers the lyrics in any depth. So certainly not enough to warrant two articles there.
  3. Size is not a relevant argument, the two articles together are not greater 100 kB, the guideline set in WP:SIZE.
  4. The merge does meet the criteria, you are separating a single song into two articles. Where can you validate that?
  5. I suggest you read WP:MERGE which says quite clearly, If the need for a merge is obvious, editors can be bold and simply do it. Two articles about the same song because there are two different recordings?
As you have made a point of objecting to the merge I shall now list the articles for merging and we can both see what happens.
Thanks for your reply.
  1. So on point one you have confirmed you are wrong. To clarify, the first two sentences referred to WP:NSONG, i.e that there is a summary of the Dutch cover in the VM/English original version article. The next two sentences (about creating a detailed article and ilnking to the summary in the VM article) are per WP:SUMMARY STYLE and WP:SPINOFF rather than NSONG; I knew what the policies were but didn't have their exact names at the time, so I couldn't reference them--and forgot to mention that. It would probably have been more clear if the first sentence itself had stated those policies. I wrote this in a bit of a hurry and didn't realize how confusing it was; sorry about that.
  2. You claim the two songs are different because of a change of lyrics I mentioned the differences in lyrics and article/song titles to indicate that a reader wouldn't confuse the Dutch cover version article with the English version article. The article titles are very different: Dutch "Heb Ik Ooit Gezegd" (literally "Have I Ever Said") vs English "Have I Told You Lately". Also, the English translation of the Dutch lyrics is very different from the original. Only the melody is identical between the two, so one really can't say they are the same song.
  3. Size is not a relevant argument I mentioned the size of the article to give a sense of relative scale. Simply, the Clouseau article is too big (and too detailed) to be merged into the Van Morrison article; merging would create a disproportionately large subsection that is too large and beyond the scope of the main article, and would have to be spun off into its own article anyway, per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE, WP:WHENSPLIT, and WP:SPINOFF. Also, an article doesn't have to hit a particular size limit before a too-large subsection can be spun off into its own article.
  4. The merge does meet the criteria No, it did not. WP:MERGEREASON's four criteria are: Duplicate, Overlap, Short test, Context. 1) Duplicate: if this were the case, you wouldn't have retained/merged as much of my content as you did; 2) Overlap: see "Duplicate"; 3) Short test: at almost 10k, it's not too short, and nowhere near, say, a stub; 4) Context: the Dutch article doesn't require any info from the English language article in order for readers to understand it.
  5. you are separating a single song into two articles The Dutch cover is different enough from the English original so as to not be considered the same song. I'm pretty sure that, per the "normally" clause of WP:NSONGS, if there's enough material to make a sizeable article, then a standalone article for a cover version is warranted as long as the subject is also notable. Also, I do appreciate that you kept most of my content to merge; but the fact that you did means that most of it was unique, which also undercuts the "same song" argument.
  6. Note: there is also a notable cover version of the Dutch cover version; this makes Clouseau's version the "original version" for the notable cover, therefore these two songs should be kept together in a standalone article about the Dutch cover.
  7. Two articles about the same song because there are two different recordings? I never said that. There are numerous "different recordings" that are in English, and have the same title, lyrics, and melody; these covers belong in the Van Morrison article. As noted above, the title and lyrics of the Dutch cover have a very different meaning to that of the original English-language song. Additionally, the Dutch cover article is too large and too detailed to be added into the main article per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE, WP:WHENSPLIT, and WP:SPINOFF; and there is a notable cover of the Dutch cover, making the Dutch cover itself an "original version". These are my actual reasons why there should be two separate articles about these two songs that are related—but not the same.
  8. I shall now list the articles for merging and we can both see what happens. That's fine. My full rationale for not merging the two articles is now posted there.
Big universe (talk) 05:01, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Two additional points, neither assessing your own work, nor editing your words without explanation is considered very helpful at WP. If you must change something then make it clear what the changes are - especially after there has been a response. --Richhoncho (talk) 12:26, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm aware of the policy, but you had posted your response only three minutes before I submitted my edit, so I didn't see it before I posted. I've updated my comments to show the changes I made. Big universe (talk) 04:57, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
  • A song in a different language that is a hit for somebody who is not Van Morrison is a different product and a different song. The single that charted in Belgium and the Netherlands is notable. To say it's "the same song" as Van Morrison's is to abuse the meaning of the word "same". --Andreas Philopater (talk) 22:50, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
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