Talk:Hephthalites - Misplaced Pages

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AYDOGDY KURBANOV on History and Study of the Hephthalites (Hephthalite Empire)

A discussion to work-up (or have) whether Dr. Kurbanov is "worthy of trust" on "History and Study of the Hephthalites (Hephthalite Empire)" has been initiated at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard -> AYDOGDY KURBANOV on History and Study of the Hephthalites (Hephthalite Empire) And, to neutrally have a firm decision on whether the source ( www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/FUDISS_derivate_000000007165/01_Text.pdf ) can be cited in the concerned WP Articles. Please note that at the present moment, this very source ( www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/FUDISS_derivate_000000007165/01_Text.pdf ) is cited as much as 6 times in this WP Article. Comments are Welcome :) ← Abstruce 18:24, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Origins section

This part is in shambles, at the moment. I think it would be best to, first of all state, what all the primary (anceint) sources say on the arrival of the Hephthalites, and then also then state what modern scholars favour/ interpret. I think that is the only way of dealing with what is otherwise a very mysterious origo gentis. TO be done soon . . . Slovenski Volk (talk) 23:09, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Merger

The article on Uar should be merged into this one, becuase it should not even exist. Simply, there is no scholarly concensus that the middle Chinese translation of Hua is even Var !! Whatever the case, the Hua were a subset of the Hephthalites, and having a separate article is redundant, duplicating and pointless. The uar article is moreover mostly of a stub quality. Slovenski Volk (talk) 01:59, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Turkic categorization

If right Iranian category, must right Turkic category. Erim Turukku (talk) 13:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

not unreasonable , although there were likely many different languages spoken in this vast, diverse region Slovenski Volk (talk) 11:05, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

pseudo avars, varangians, sardinians and macedonians, share the same genetic makeup of mostly paleobalcan i2a2 genome. so they cant be turkic. maybe turuk, tocharians or thracians are of macedonian origin? it is interesting because turks have indo-european genes, but their language is not indo-european. how come? 85.30.66.73 (talk) 09:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

You .. people categorize nations with genes? How come ? Because Europoid genes came from Western Asia.. ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.142.140.40 (talk) 12:55, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

For the same reason that language classification has absolutely nothing to do with biological genetics. 104.169.35.251 (talk) 05:19, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 28 April 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Number 5 7 16:03, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Hephthalite Empire → Hephthalites – See this ngram. The people, not the empire, is what people usually speak of. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 05:27, 6 May 2015 (UTC) Srnec (talk) 23:32, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

SUPPORT, for conciseness per WP:CONCISE and the simple reason that Misplaced Pages must have a primary entry on "Hephthalites".Oppose. The article's topic is the Hepththalite Empire, not the people. So we need the complete and precise title "Hephthalite Empire" for it, just as we have an article for the preceding Empire, Kushan Empire. For the people Hephthalites, there needs to be created a new article "Hephthalites". Or alternatively, we can maybe add "Hephthalites" as a section of the present article Xionites. Or we can create larger article, for such Eastern Iranian peoples including "Hephthalites", "White Huns", Xionites, and Kidarites, etc. At present the scattered articles about similar topics are badly arranged. Khestwol (talk) 09:25, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
OPPOSE: Hepthalites is a typo. It should be Hephthalites. Also, the oft-cited (but incorrectly in this article) contribution by BA Litvinsky is titled The Hephthalite Empire. The ngram also looks broken and I'm not sure it's the right way to decide these things.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 17:07, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

The ngram isn't broken, it just didn't find enough results for Hephthalite Empire to even display any, although an independent Google Book search shows more than one hundred. There are almost 10,000 results for Hephthalites. I'm open to an argument that the current title is better, but the preponderance of sources prima facie favours the move. Srnec (talk) 18:15, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Srnec, please fix your typo. My support iswas for "Hephthalites". Khestwol (talk) 17:24, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

You are correct. That was a typo. Fixed now. Srnec (talk) 18:15, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Support. Seems to be the common name for these people; an article on the people can also cover their empire, while the reverse isn't necessarily true.--Cúchullain /c 13:49, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Support: Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE. Krakkos (talk) 15:32, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment: The current title "Hephthalite Empire" is WP:PRECISE and indicates exactly the content of the article. "Hephthalites" is an entirely different topic, and an article on that topic would be merely based on the small but influential Hephthalite tribe, not on the area, peoples, and government that tribe ruled. Khestwol (talk) 11:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. The empire ruled by the Hephthalites can just as easily be covered in an article on them, just as the Hunnic Empire is covered under our article on the Huns.--Cúchullain /c 14:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Hephthalites as a tribe (not empire or khanate) can be covered under Xionites etc. Khestwol (talk) 15:01, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

As a fair comparison, see Yuezhi that we have for a nomadic group from the same region, but Kushan Empire that we have for the empire founded by the Yuezhi. Khestwol (talk) 15:39, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Just in a cursory search, I've found a number of sources that discuss the empire or kingdom founded by the Hephthalites using "Hephthalites".. "Hephthalite Empire" as a term looks to be relatively less common.--Cúchullain /c 15:56, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Nomadic empire ?

According to Procopius of Caesarea, Hephthalites lifed in cities — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.244.39.199 (talk) 14:44, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

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Afghanistan

Dont remove Afghanistan tempalte. Infact the only related template is the Afgghan one. Why would you remove that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.90.199.161 (talk) 13:46, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

You'll need some very reliable sources to support a claim like that, i.e. that the only modern day country related to the Hephthalite Empire is Afghanistan... - Tom | Thomas.W 13:51, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 19 January 2018

The result of the move request was: Move as proposed. Clear consensus with only one outlier objection that was countered and the counter was not refuted. (non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 18:08, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Hephthalite Empire → Hephthalites – The name of this article is innaccurate, not to mention less common (Hephthalites also has over 6000-7000 results than Hephthalite Empire in google books); the Hephthalite state was split into several minor kingdoms after the Battle of Bukhara in 557, which makes the term 'Hephthalites' much more accurate, since it wasn't a single entity all of its history. This is mentioned in several academic sources, such as Iranica and History of Civilizations of Central Asia, who favours the term 'Hephthalites' as well;

"Yet, though the power of the Hephthalites was destroyed in Transoxania, Hephthalite kingdoms remained in Afghanistan, of which fragments survived for some time even after the Arab invasions."

"Small Hephthalite principalities continued to exist in southern Tajikistan and Afghanistan for a long time; some of them (in particular Kabul) remained independent" --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:38, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Support. Misplaced Pages has a bad habit of making up "state names" for ancient ethnic groups, which is anachronistic and often completely inaccurate. It's far better to call such peoples just by their ethnic name.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:45, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
Oppose per some arguments present in the previous move request which failed. The article's topic is the Hepththalite Empire, not the people. So we need the complete and precise title "Hephthalite Empire" for it, just as we have an article for the preceding Empire, Kushan Empire. For the people Hephthalites, if any user want they can create a separate article "Hephthalites". Khestwol (talk) 19:00, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

That's not a valid argument though, since the article's topic is literally not only about the Hephthalite Empire, which only lasted for some 100 years. Everyone can see easily see that by simply reading the article. You said something alike that regarding the Sakastan article as well, where you stated that the topic of the article is not about the Sasanians only , which it literally is. Making a article called 'Hephthalites' would be silly, confusing and unnecessary, they're same thing. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:04, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

The article's focus is the empire (not the ethnic group) - as reflected in the infobox. The Hephthalite Empire is an important topic in the history of the region and a separate Misplaced Pages article is warranted for it. So the current title is fine I think. Khestwol (talk) 19:20, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Repeating yourself won't make your argument less incorrect. So.. because there is a infobox, the article's focus on the empire? lel, the hephthalites as an empire ended in 557, not the 710s. Also, the infobox is not gonna get removed even if this article gets moved. The article literally contradicts you. How would you even make two different articles for the Hephthalites? Care to explain? Majority of the information in the articles would be the same/a silly copypaste. --HistoryofIran (talk) 04:33, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Just to clarify, B. A. Litvinsky in the History of Civilizations of Central Asia quoted above does title his overall chapter as ‘The Hephthalite Empire’.

Frantz Grenet, who also specializes in pre-Islamic Central Asian history, also refers to the polity under the Hephthalites as an empire:

“Earlier still, in the fifth century, the empire of the Hephthalite Huns whose aristocracy...” (Refocusing Central Asia, F. Grenet, Inaugural Lecture delivered on Thursday 7 November 2013)

EdenKZD (talk) 21:13, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that's in the fifth century, they aren't a empire after 557 (which has kinda been my point..), but several entities. --HistoryofIran (talk) 04:33, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

I understand they were eventually defeated, but the entity before this is described as a Hephthalite empire by specialists in the field. The date of defeat in AD 560 can always be clarified in the infobox. What followed after their defeat, such as the remaining Hephthalite kingdoms in southern Tokharistan you’re referring to, could be a subsection of this article.

I’d suggest perhaps improving the content of the article instead of changing the title. The section on origins and ethnicity could be combined, and there is potential to furnish the article with further information on the political and socio-cultural world under their empire, as well as their legacy in the region.

EdenKZD (talk) 14:06, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes but imagine the reader reading about the Hephthalite kingdom in Bagdhis under Nizak in the 700s and then get redirected to a article called the 'Hephthalite empire'. After 557 the southern Hephthalite kingdoms were under Sasanian suzerainty whilst the northern ones were under Turkic suzerainty . It's just gonna get confusing/messy/anachronistic in the long run. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:24, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

I see. I guess if this particular article is supposed to be about the people, a separate page for the empire/kingdom could work too. EdenKZD (talk) 10:38, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Support per Ermenrich and nom. Jstor search: "Hephthalite Empire" gets 175 hits, "Hephthalites" gets 344. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:01, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Your search results seem to support the current title because I am sure that many of the sources using "Hephthalites" also use "Hephthalite Empire" within the same document. As User:EdenKZD said above: "Litvinsky in the History of Civilizations of Central Asia quoted above does title his overall chapter as ‘The Hephthalite Empire’." Thanks, Khestwol (talk) 17:43, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Support. 'Hephthalites' is the broader topic we should be (and are) covering. Srnec (talk) 14:22, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Support. This articles is about an ancient people and not just a dynasty, kingdom, or empire. We have Yuezhi (people) and Kushan Empire, Saka (people) and Kingdom of Khotan and Shule Kingdom, and many other similar cases. So move this article to Hephthalites. Hephthalite Empire can have its own separate article. --Wario-Man (talk) 18:44, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Well yeah I guess in that sense it could also work. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:52, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Support per Wario-Man.---Wikaviani 23:59, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Support. Seems to be the common name, and the empire can be covered under the Hephthalites title.--Cúchullain /c 20:28, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Questionable categories

Category:Huns
- Article says: "... All of these peoples have often been linked to the Huns who invaded Eastern Europe during the same period, and/or have been referred to as "Huns", but there is no consensus among scholars about such a connection." Is it right to call Hephthalites Huns?
Category:Iranian empires | Category:Historical Iranian peoples | Category:Iranian nomads
- When the origin of Hephthalites is uncertain, should we us such categories?
Category:Sogdians
- Is there any source that calls Hephthalites Sogdian? How they fit in "Sogdians" category? Per what?

@Ermenrich, HistoryofIran, Kansas Bear, KIENGIR, LouisAragon, PericlesofAthens, and Wikaviani: Your opinion? --Wario-Man (talk) 07:46, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Also pinging @MMFA:. I think saying "there is no consensus among scholars about such a connection" is incorrect. At the very least, almost everyone seems to agree that all these groups used the name Hun. Whether they were "genetically" related is another, and, frankly, somewhat old-fashioned and racialist way of looking at things. I can't speak to the Sogdians bit though.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:11, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

The main issue is Category:Huns = Huns (only Attila's Huns) OR Category:Huns = Any historical group that named Hun. If you remember, this was the reason why I excluded the other Huns (XYZ Huns) from Template:Huns. Can we say Hun is an umbrella term like Scythian? For the Iranian categories, I'm neutral about them. But when we add such categories to people with uncertain origins, stuff like this happens. That user is a sockpoppet of User:Joohnny braavoo1 and that sockmaster is well-known for his "make everything Turkic" quest/agenda (He always tries to represent non-Turkic peoples as Turkic). But another editor may come here and tries to add Turkic-related categories per current cited references. For the Sogdians category, I suggest removing it. --Wario-Man (talk) 13:32, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Ermenrich, if we really do not go into debates of genetic origin, they belonged to the Huns, I'd tend to support it as an umbrella category, nevertheless I don't agree of the removal of it. The connection to Sogdians is only that the Hephtalites conquered their land, thus that category should be deleted, along with the Iranian categories that are widely put openly to such groups/peoples of uncertain origin or heritage in case their ancient history overlaps of the territory of the present-day or historically undoubtful Iranian/Persian countries/entities.(KIENGIR (talk) 14:52, 6 August 2019 (UTC))

I don't care about outdated racial classifications. And genetic data have their own story but they have nothing to do with this discussion/topic. As I said, my main concern is about the usage of term Hun/Huns. --Wario-Man (talk) 16:02, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Category:Huns seems legit in my humble opinion. I stand by how Encyclopedia Iranica defines them : "HUNS, collective term for horsemen of various origins leading a nomadic or semi-nomadic lifestyle.". I assume that Cathegory:Huns = any historical group that named as such. We have here the same kind of situation that we had about Scythians/Sarmatians.
While the origin of the Hephtalites may be controversial, i would say that the mainstream of sources still list them as "Iranian". Encyclopedia Iranica calls them "Iranian Huns". Even if their origins seem to be mixed, their language and elite were Iranian : "Iranian Huns. The term “Huns” was also used for several tribes who posed a continuous threat to northeastern Iran and northwestern India from the 4th century C.E. Earlier research attempted to establish a connection between the different tribes mentioned in the sources, and to consider them all as Hephthalites (cf. Ghirshman, pp. 69-134). Altheim (III, 1961, p. 7) viewed the Hephthalites as the original tribe of the Huns, from which the European Huns had split off. In addition, he also assumed a Turkish origin for all these tribes (Altheim, I, 1959, pp. 45 ff.). However, this far too simplistic perspective has been succeeded by a more discriminating view based on Robert Göbl’s research. According to Göbl, Iran and India underwent several successive invasions by clearly distinct tribes, whom he referred to collectively as “Iranian Huns.” They apparently had no connection with the European Huns, but may have been causally related with their movement. A prominent characteristic, which they shared with all other Central Asian power constellations, was their ethnic mixture, among which the elite was said to be Iranian, or at least expressed itself as such through its coinage (Göbl, 1978, p. 107). It is noteworthy that the tribes in question deliberately called themselves “Huns” in order to frighten their enemies (Frye, pp. 345-46)." Again, same kind of situation that we had with the Scythians/Sarmatians.
Category:Sogdians is irrelevant and i have not found any source supporting it. Thus, it has been legitimately removed by Wario-Man.---Wikaviani 18:11, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Agree with Wikaviani. I'd also like to note that there is at least a slight difference in the usage of Huns vs. Scythians/Sarmatian: whereas (ancient) people tended to call unrelated groups by that name, Hun appears likely to have been an endonym used by the ruling elites of these tribal groupings themselves (although I guess that's not a universally held belief). This excludes people like the Sabirs and basically anyone called a Hun after the fiftth century though, except maybe the North Caucasian Huns.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:23, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

OK. So should we add these XYZ Huns to Template:Huns? If the answer is yes, what label do you suggest for "group" (parameter)? I think "Other Huns" or "Other Hunnic peoples" is a good choice. --Wario-Man (talk) 06:08, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

I think "Other Hunnic Peoples" would be a good choice, though I'm sure we'll have to police it to keep people from adding Bulgars and Sabirs, etc.--Ermenrich (talk) 12:54, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

They seem to have been Iranized (Bactrianized?) Turks who immigrated from the Altaic Mountains to Bactria/Tokharistan, that is at least per the excellent, new and detailed information that ReOrienting the Sasanians: East Iran in Late Antiquity gives regarding them. The source also goes in depth about their relations with the Huns, and that unlike the traditional nomadic Huns, they seem to have been a generally settled people (or at least semi-nomadic). There is much more than that, but this article ultimately needs a heavy rewriting. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:30, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Wario-Man, it's relevant to add these Huns to Template:Huns, per the above comments. Any of your two proposals sounds good. However, an exclusive Turk origin is dismissed by Encyclopedia Iranica. Rather, it seems that they were of mixed origins while being culturally Iranians.---Wikaviani 21:15, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Last I checked the leading theory was that the Hepthaltites were most likely related to a former vassal of the Rouran called the Hua, not the Xiongnu. The Kidarites were Xiongnu. And certainly there were Xiongnu in the Hepthaltites, but their ruling body was different.MMFA (talk) 13:39, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

@Ermenrich, HistoryofIran, and MMFA: Rewriting this article and especially rewriting and summarizing Hephthalites#Origins will be very helpful for our readers. Current revision looks like a mess and it is confusing. --Wario-Man (talk) 12:48, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Is it possible that they are descents of the israelite tribe of Naftali? Ilanohsky (talk) 23:23, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Hephtalites = Naftali ?

In hebrew Naftali is also pronounced with an 'E' instead of an 'A', they are belived to have become a tribe in central asia, they were talking aramaic and iranian languages, as modern hebrew back then was aramaic and it fits with their culture and differences. Any scientific opinion on this. Ilanohsky (talk) 23:21, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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We better remove these categories

Category:Iranian countries and territories, Category:Historical Iranian peoples, Category:Iranian nomads

Should be neutralized just like Huns and some other similar articles. --Wario-Man (talk) 22:31, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Agreed.(KIENGIR (talk) 09:57, 28 November 2020 (UTC))

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