Misplaced Pages

User talk:Rosencomet/Archive 1

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< User talk:Rosencomet

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Hanuman Das (talk | contribs) at 02:04, 6 December 2006 (→Abandoning the effort). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 02:04, 6 December 2006 by Hanuman Das (talk | contribs) (→Abandoning the effort)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Welcome to Misplaced Pages!!!

Hello Rosencomet! Welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. If you decide that you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Below are some recommended guidelines to facilitate your involvement. Happy Editing! --  Netsnipe    17:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Getting Started
Getting your info out there
Getting more Misplaced Pages rules
Getting Help
Getting along
Getting technical

Hello! Mike Ingalls is not the appropriate spot to post information about yourself, because that's the encyclopedic part of the Misplaced Pages website. User:Rosencomet/Archive 1, however, is available for personal information about yourself. Please see Misplaced Pages:Introduction and Misplaced Pages:User page for more information. --  Netsnipe    17:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


Welcome!

Hello, Rosencomet, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! 

Self-promotion

Please don't use wikipedia for self-promotion. You make Jim cry. It's against the rules of wikipedia. There's also a problem with conflict of interest and imparsiality of your edit. All your edits have been reverted. Thank you. Project2501a 17:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest

Dear Netsnipe,

First of all, no, I am not Mike Ingalls. I am the director of a group that has hosted appearances by Mike many times over the last 25 years. I was introduced to Misplaced Pages by someone who had seen a very incorrect listing about one of the events I facilitate, and after posting corrections I noticed that many authors, lecturers, and musicians that I thought were quite worthy of having listings (comparing them to others who were already listed) had no entries. Being the author of our event catalog and having handy short bios on many of these folks, I decided to post the most recent info I had on them as a courtesy. These are not, in my opinion, vanity listings, but actual short biographical sketches of authors and entertainers of interest.

I hope to expand some of the listings and keep them up to date with new data as I receive it, which is usually when I book them next. In a few cases, I've simply added a bit to existing listings, such as an additional college degree, award, or a new book or CD produced.

I don't think I've violated the Misplaced Pages guidelines. These are professional folks, usually published or with their art/music produced, often internationally celebrated. I'd say Mike Ingalls is near the low end of noteriety among the listings I've posted, It's true, but I haven't finished checking all his credits. He has been a professional classical musician and a paid speaker on a number of subjects, and did record on the album Neandir: Lady of the Flame with Victoria Ganger and Ian Corrigan. He has appeared on television as a performer, and may have more to his credit. I will follow up on it.

In any event, my purpose was to give the Misplaced Pages community the benefit of my store of short biographical sketches, mostly just a paragraph long. They seemed tailor-made for the purpose, and quite a diverse collection: New Age, Magickal, Counter-Cultural, Art & Music of many types, the Healing Arts, World Spirituality, and more. I will keep an eye to the guidelines, but please be aware of my good intentions, and that I might either expand a somewhat sparse-looking listing within a week of its appearance or encourage the listed person (or someone from a listed group) to update me on their specifics. I'm just trying to be helpful in the spirit of the good work I see being done here.

Ad Astra, Rosencomet Rosencomet 17:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Rosencomet, we've only just realised you're not Mike after going through your log of contributions to Misplaced Pages and we're very concerned about a conflict of interest here. You are a director of new age festival and creating biographies for all of your guest speakers some of which have been copied and pasted out of your online programme. Since we suspect that no one else would have created these articles otherwise, some editors including myself can only interpret this as an attempt to use Misplaced Pages to promote your festival by raising its online profile through multiple articles. Patricia Telesco for example will probably deleted because she fails the Misplaced Pages:Notability (people) guidelines. There are also neutral point of view issues here since it's in your interests to promote these people speaking at your festival instead of writing an impartial biography. Please address our concerns before you continue editing Misplaced Pages. Other editors will get back to you on this matter shortly, but it's 4am in Sydney right now so I must sleep. Please leave your reply on this talk page. --  Netsnipe    18:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Notability requirements

To save yourself a bit of grief, please read Misplaced Pages's notability requirements for biographies. Published authors are certainly acceptible, but some of the bios you are adding will be deleted sooner or later. Please read the requirements and be more discriminating in your additions... Thanks! —Hanuman Das 18:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Article mention spamming and verifiability

I also note that you are spamming articles, such as Timothy Leary, with mentions of Association for Consciousness Exploration and Starwood Festival. Please note that all additions to Misplaced Pages must be verifiable. This means that you must be able to provide a book or journal reference (not a web-only one). If you can do that for your additions, fine. If you can't, please desist. —Hanuman Das 18:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Misleading edit summaries

This edit has a misleading edit summary. You added text to the article in addition to the things mentioned. Thus it could in no way be considered a minor edit, which is restricted to grammatical and spelling fixes which do not add or subtract from the content of the article. Using misleading edit summaries is highly discouraged and may lead to conflicts with other editors. —Hanuman Das 18:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your responses

Ok, then. I don't want to bite the newcomer, but rather just make sure that you know what the policies are. Many of your additions are just great and I am glad to see them. On the references to Starwood and ACE, it is ok if there is an existing author bio, say in the back of one of their books that refers to their Starwood participation, but not ok if it isn't verifiable in print. Basicly, the celebrity and their agent get to decide whether they want it called out, unless it should happen to get in the news :-). Also, where it is appropriate, make sure you spell out Association for Consciousness Exploration rather than put ACE, which goes somewhere else! I've fixed it in several location where I thought it was appropriate to leave in. But you would know more than I about sources, so you'll need to decide which artists/authors have self-publicized their involvement and which have only been publicized by the Festival. It's appropriate, I think, to put mentions in the former articles, but not the latter... Hope this makes sense... —Hanuman Das 20:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Question

Are you Jeff Rosenbaum? You have a strange edit history in relationship to that article. Or are you 999 who is always saying he is consulting with you, but you never speak for yourself except in edit histories? There is something very odd going on here, I've started to notice. Maybe you could explain more what is going on regarding you and these various articles you seem to be behind the scenes on that are all related in some way. NLOleson 20:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Response

Well, it's going to be tough, probably impossible, to keep all the articles. Starwood Festival, WinterStar Symposium and Association for Consciousness Exploration are safe I think. On people, please see WP:BIO for policies. The festival organizers will not be notable enough to have their own articles, but you could put a paragraph apiece about them in the ACE article, I suspect. Some of the presenters are not going to make it either: having a book or two published is not always enough to be considered notable by Misplaced Pages standards.

I've known 999 online for a while, and he is a good guy to help with occult, magick and paganism articles and he's been around enough to know the WP policies and maybe bend 'em a little, but he can't save you from a concerted effort to delete anything non-notable. When you started putting mentions of ACE, SF and WSS into existing articles is what got you noticed. If you hadn't done that, you might have slipped by, but obviously you put something in an article somebody was watching and it made them suspicious of what you were doing.

As for verifiability, it is a pillar of WP. It means you have to provide a reference that someone else can look up, preferably in a book. ACE records aren't going to do it. The web site will be borderline, as both web-only and "autobiographical" sources are considered inferior. You may have to take material out of the articles if you can't point to a printed review, etc. etc. Read WP:V, WP:RS and WP:CITE to understand how important references and citations are. I'll do what I can, but give up on Brushwood Folklore Center, Jeff Rosenbaum, and Joseph Rothenberg; the first looks commercial and the latter two aren't notable by WP standards. With the authors, go to Amazon and start listing a bibliography of all their published books. If they have less than three and/or they are self-published or pamphlets, give up, they'll never pass. I think they have to have at least one book which passes WP:BOOK - reputable published reviews!

You have to think of WP like a paper encyclopedia. If someone is notable enough to have an article in Encyclopedia Brittanica, then no problem putting 'em in WP. But someone who's not published or had multiple mentions in third-party sources isn't going to stay. Sooner or later someone will start a deletion process...

Hope this helps... —Hanuman Das 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't understand why you continue to create articles

Reading your talk page I see that lots of people are trying to help you out and enlighten you as to the rules you must follow here at Misplaced Pages for articles. Yet you continue to create articles on people who are not notable with no effort to provide the required citations. I don't understand what drives you to do this. Surely you can get publicity for your festivals without misusing Misplaced Pages. I can see by the edit histories that you are very active. Why not concetrate on a few people who are actually notable, rather than go on creating articles on people who will only remain because they slip through the Misplaced Pages cracks. I would be more than happy to help you out getting your articles together if I didn't feel you are misusing Misplaced Pages. GBYork 23:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

GBYork, don't you know how to use "user contributions"? Rosencoment hasn't created any new articles recently. If you think otherwise, list them. —Hanuman Das 01:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

That's right. All I've been doing for a while is trying to improve my existing listings and provide discographies and bibliographies and such. And while I'm at it, I'd like to thank 999 and Hanuman Das for their help and patience. I have two jobs and little free time, but I intend to learn to do these entries better; I appreciate the help making my data into real references and citations.Rosencomet 17:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Please don't use Misplaced Pages to promote your festival

You are taking advantage of the whole hardworking Misplaced Pages community when you do so. NothingMuch 00:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with your premise. I have spoken with most of the people who's articles I have either posted or edited. They all consider an appearance as a speaker or performer at these events to be an important credit in their career. It says something about the audience they serve and appeal to, and in many cases it indicates a multi-cultural interest and a desire to network with non-mainstream communities, both spiritual and ideological. In many cases, appearing there has been a milestone or turning-point in their careers and lives.

I have become part of the "hard-working Misplaced Pages community" myself, and have posted dozens of articles by notable authors and spokespeople for certain segments of society that have been previously neglected. I have created or added to discographies and bibliographies on existing articles as well, hoping to share the information my activities bring me on a regular basis. I have sent e-mails to the folks I've linked to both telling them what I've done and urging them to log in themselves and become part of this community, review their listings for accuracy and such, and consider doing the same for others they consider appropriate. Some have done just that. I have received many letters from authors and entertainers thanking me for having contributed their listing.

I am new at this, and have't had the time (holding down two jobs) to learn all the niceties of proper citation and reference listing, and I thank those that have helped shape up my listings. I've noticed additional data being added to them, and am gratified to see it. I think I'm doing just what a member of this community should be doing, and don't think your accusation is valid.Rosencomet 15:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ellen Evert Hopman

Please read the talk page. You need to supply a citation for every piece of information that you add. Thanks. -999 (Talk) 18:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

  • I am aware of the problems with this listing, and only included this info about her position with Whiteoak because Ms. Hopman herself sent it to me in a letter just hours before concerning this very issue. I am not the person who has been messing with this listing or posting the non-factual info, and I immediately informed Ms. Hopman of my addition. Rosencomet 18:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Anne Hill

Looks like 999 has already nominated Anne Hill for deletion. Go vote in the AfD if you like, but it looks like it may not be necessary... —Hanuman Das 02:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

AmyLee

I've added the "{{prod}}" template to the article AmyLee, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but I don't believe it satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and I've explained why in the deletion notice (see also Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not and Misplaced Pages:Notability). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages, or, if you disagree, discuss the issues raised at Talk:AmyLee. If you remove the {{dated prod}} template, the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Fram 09:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Robert Lee "Skip" Ellison

Robert Lee "Skip" Ellison has been proposed deletion process for the reasons given on the prod. It does not appear to satisfy Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria. You can remove the template but it still may be nomiation for deletion through the afd process and a concensus on Misplaced Pages can be reached regarding the articles's status.

Meanwhile, please attempt to upgrade the article appropriately if you so choose. Alien666 15:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Please recreate this article. It is on the shortlist of requested articles at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Neopaganism (near the bottom of the page). Ekajati (yakity-yak) 21:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

In regards to copyrighted material that has been removed

Greetings. I recently noticed that one of the articles that you have contributed to (Deborah Lipp, to be specific) had one paragraph lifted directly from her 'about me' page, with only a few words removed. I have removed the offending text (diff), however if you wish you rewrite the text in your own words so that it is non-infringing, you are more than welcome to do so. Have a pleasant evening, and happy editing. Kyra~(talk) 03:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


External links

Please do not add inappropriate external links to Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is not a mere directory of links nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include (but are not limited to) links to personal web sites, links to web sites that you are affiliated with, and links that exist to attract visitors to a web site or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam policies for further explanations of links that are considered appropriate. If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. See the welcome page to learn more about Misplaced Pages. Thank you. --Calton | Talk 00:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism by Timmy12

Go here and add a report of your personal experiences with being stalked by Timmy12. Your complaint will carry more weight than mine. I've probably only seen a slice of it. -999 (Talk) 14:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Your messages

Thanks for you notes on my talk page. I think Timmy12's removal of citations has crossed the line into stalking and vandalism. Have you considered bringing it to the attention of admins on WP:AN/I? —Hanuman Das 16:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Link Spam

Template:Halt Citations should be to reliable sources published by reputable publishers. They should not be to commercial advertisements. Also, I do not know if you are associated with the website that your links have promoted, but please read WP:Vanity before posting any more links. Thank-you. --BostonMA 00:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Was asked

Was asked to intervene here. Could you please let me know (1) what Rosencomet is and (2) what the affiliation of ACE is with Rosencomet? By that, I mean Rosencomet the organization, not the person. Thanks -- Samir धर्म 02:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no organization called Rosencomet. When the ACE website was set up, the webmaster at that time decided to use the name rosencomet.com as a tribute to a running joke from the history of the group that gave birth to ACE. They were called the Chameleon Club, and their symbol was the Rose & Comet, a variation on the Discordian "Sacred Chao", itself a variation of the Yin/Yang. (Besides, even if ACE.com weren't taken, it would have led to a mountain of spam and mis-directed e-mail. Even Starwood.com would have confused ACE with several commercial ventures. ACE is not-for-profit.)

May I ask, who are you, and by whom were you asked to intervene? Rosencomet 13:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Sally Eaton

I have restored the article on Sally Eaton to its state prior to your massive deletion. A subject not wanting an article is not a proper reason to remove information from Misplaced Pages. If the article is libelous, then yes. But this article appears to be sourced and therefore presents no legal issues. Therefore, I have restored the text unless a better reason to remove the text can be found, Metros232 03:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Link spam again

Template:Halt Please reread WP:V to understand what are appropriate references for Misplaced Pages. Also, please read WP:BLP. --BostonMA 11:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

You Are Vandalizing

I have read the material, and disagree with your contention that I have posted inappropriate citations. I have created and/or contributed to many articles on speakers and entertainers I have knowledge of in fields I am involved in. I am new at this, but have learned that I must cite sources for flat statements. For a speaker in these fields, an appearance at the Starwood Festival or the WinterStar Symposium is a legitimate credit, which says something about their standing as a presenter in the communities associated with these fields, just as appearing at Esalen Institute, Interface, the Ojai Institute, Shadybrook, Lillith Faire, Pagan Spirit Gathering, or other institutions and/or events of note. If I am to claim these artists spoke or offered programming at these events, I must cite evidence or documentation of this to verify it, and the only way to do that is to refer to the program material from that event. I have been adding links to pages that verify the claim that each person did indeed appear at the particular event and when. The page each goes to merely lists the artist's inclusion in the bill for the event; unless you start navigating all over the website, there is no advertising for a present event or product, just a record of the past. That's called documentation of facts.

Please cease your harassment and stalking of my citations. I have corresponded with other Misplaced Pages contributors with much more experience than myself, and they agree I have acted appropriately, and have even helped reverse the vandalism you and your buddies and/or alternate identities have been engaged in. Please use your energies to contribute your own articles instead of sabotaging mine. I believe I have made some very real contributions to Misplaced Pages's coverage of articles concerning notable individuals in the fields I know. Rosencomet 13:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for responding.
First I would like to state that I am not vandalizing, but am making good faith edits for the benefit of Misplaced Pages. You may say that I am vandalizing if you wish, but I believe it will not help your cause any. The same applies for your accusation of stalking.
Regarding your statement "If I am to claim these artists spoke or offered programming at these events, I must cite evidence or documentation of this to verify it,..." That is not quite correct. You may add material to Misplaced Pages which you believe to be true, and which you in good faith believe will advance the Misplaced Pages's goals of creating an online encyclopedia. If proper references are not provided, someone else may remove your material, if such a removal is made in good faith. However, that is not quite the same as "you must cite evidence".
Regarding the type of sources that may be used for references, I think WP:V is very clear.
"Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy..."
"...Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources."
"...Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications."
is not a third party publisher.
In the case of Biographies of Living Persons the requirements for sources are more stringent.
"Be very firm about high quality references, particularly about details of personal lives."
The recent request that was made to you by the subject of one of your articles underscores the need to use third party references. Had you used a newspaper or magazine article, the Wikiarticle on the individual in question would have been reporting that which had already been reported in the recognized media.
I will not go into issues of Notability, Vanity, Conflict of interest and Autobiography, which I think also apply, but will skip directly to the issue of spamming.
The fact is, that on the plea of needing to provide references to facts (which apparently are not notable enough to merit mention in newspapers, magazines, etc.) you are adding a links to your promotional website in numerous articles. Keep a link to your website in the A.C.E. page, and in the Starwood and Winterstar pages, but don't add your links everywhere.
You are of course free to ignore my advice. However, please be aware that the idea of blacklisting your site has already been raised by some. Blacklisting of your site would prevent any edits which include your website to be saved. This is a somewhat drastic solution, but is final resort to stop link spam when all else seems to fail. I personally do not favor blacklisting your site. I think it is appropriate in a few places. However, if you continue on your present course, please be aware of the possible consequences. I look forward to discussing this issue with you in further detail if you desire. Sincerely, --BostonMA 14:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I totally disagree with your evaluation of these citations. If a speaker offers a seminar at a university, that is a legitimate credit. The catalog of that year's session or semester, even an online version of it, is a legitimate citation as to the fact that this person did, indeed, appear at that university. (I could refer to the printed program of the event, a copy of which I may have on my shelf, but what good would that do the reader? It's the same information as the web page, but they can't go to the library and find copies of decades of Starwood and WinterStar program booklets.) There need not be a newspaper article covering the fact for it to be notable, nor is it likely, and any media coverage would be a LESS reliable source than the published curriculum of the institution itself. For information to be notable it need not be "newsworthy". Misplaced Pages is not a newsgroup or a celebrity promotion. Professional lectures often have only the venues that they have appeared at to indicate their notability in their field, besides any books, recorded material or important articles they may have produced, and I have spent a great deal of time cataloging such material as well, both on articles I have created and as contributions to others' work.
Rosencomet.com IS a third-party source, in that it is neither run by me nor by the subject of the article. It is not a personal website, but the public record of the activities of an organization, and the content thereof. Most of what you have said would be valid if I had self-published a book claiming I did something, then used that as evidence that it was true. But these are the published records of the very events that the citations refer to, produced not by me but by the organization which created and runs the events in question, and has for over twenty-five years. The citation is used merely to establish the fact of the appearance at the time claimed. If the information is challenged because no citation has been provided, do YOU intend to defend the article? This has happened to me several times, and I am merely trying to address that.
And I'm sorry for the confusion, but rosencomet.com is NOT "my" website, promotional or otherwise. It is the public vehicle of the Association for Consciousness Exploration LLC, and I neither run it nor do I have the web skills to do so. I have permission to cut & paste material from it, and I have used plenty from other sources as well. Perhaps I should not have chosen the name I did, but I never forsaw this controversy. Both the original webmaster of that website and I got the name from the same inside joke among the volunteers who contribute their efforts towards the Starwood Festival. Rosencomet 15:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


You wrote:
"rosencomet.com is NOT "my" website, promotional or otherwise. It is the public vehicle of the Association for Consciousness Exploration LLC...and I neither run it..."
"I have permission to cut & paste material from it,"
As executive director of ACE, I assume you have some oversight control over the ACE website, even if you lack the technical skills for day to day maintenance. --BostonMA 15:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, well, you would think so, but it's not true. ACE is a totally volunteer organization, and it's different departments are run by the individuals involved. If you had been at the last meeting, you would know just HOW little control the Executive Director has over the website, but that's a WHOLE other story. The exec gets to sign things, pretty much, like rental agreements for a hall or something. I don't even run meetings; everyone takes turns, alphabetically. I could step in if someone defied the rules of the group and sabotaged or absconded with the website, but even then I'd have to bring any action I wished to take to a vote at a meeting, then ask someone with the skills needed to do something about it if I won the vote. Trust me: I do not run the website in any way, shape or form. Writing my own copy for my own articles and seeing them posted without having to ask someone else to accept my contribution and not re-write it has been a VERY refreshing change! Rosencomet 16:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


Rosencomet, I advise you to go to Samir about this. He (Samir) wrote on his talk page:
I was trying to get to the bottom of these ACE links for festivals from Rosencomet.com. If Rosencomet is the organization that runs ACE or hosts the ACE festival infomation, then the references are valid. The question now turns to whether all these performers need references to having performed at ACE events -- Samir धर्म 00:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Since I believe it is the case that Rosencomet.com is the official site of the LLC in question, it appears that you are in the right. Samir is an admin, BostonMA and Calton are not. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 15:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I have gone to Samir's page, and await his reponse. I am happy to take your advise on this and any matter. Rosencomet 16:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Starwood Festival

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you.. Also please see WP:3RR. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

You need to self-revert

your last edit to Starwood Festival is your 4th revert in 24 hours. If you self-revert, you can avoid getting blocked. (Just trying to help). Ekajati (yakity-yak) 18:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Notability of Owain Phyfe

Owain Phyfe

A tag has been placed on Owain Phyfe, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done because the article seems to be about a person, group of people, band, club, company, or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable (see the guidelines for notability here). If you can indicate why the subject of this article is notable, you may contest the tagging. To do this, please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself.

Please read the criteria for speedy deletion (specifically, article #7) and our general biography criteria. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Kla'quot 09:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

My apologies to you and Owain Phyfe; nominating this was a complete mis-step on my part. Sorry about that!Kla'quot 17:58, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

RfC on Mattisse/Timmy12

Hello. Just letting you know that an RfC has been opened on Mattisse, here. As it provides strong circumstantial evidence that Timmy12 is a sockpuppet of Mattisse intentionally using two computers to evade checkuser, I thought you might want to comment. I don't really care what side you weigh in on, but I know you've been in a position to observe at least part of the situation and any view would be helpful. —Hanuman Das 11:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Message on my Talk Page

My very first Misplaced Pages input was August 13th. How have you managed to spend 6 months on this noble crusade of yours by October 26th?

If you have a message for someone, leave it on THEIR talk page, not mine.

So you've only been here since August 13th? My, that's a lot of self-promotion in such a short time. --Calton | Talk 23:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

How do I preserve my work?

On another user's talk page you ask "How do I preserve my work?" Please understand the Misplaced Pages is a collaborative effort. It is considered inappropriate for individual editors to behave as is they WP:OWN particular articles. That aside, the best way to preserve content in Misplaced Pages is to show the content is notable and that it is verifiable. One way to demonstrate notability is to show that some third party actually took note of some fact. For example, if there are reviews of any starwood performances in third party media, this would be some evidence of notability. So, my suggestion is that you search for such reviews or similar mention. If starwood performances are not mentioned in other media, then my suggestion is that you first attempt to gain recognition in some third party publications before you attempt to gain publicity through Misplaced Pages. Sincerely, --BostonMA 17:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I find it wearying to hear the double standard your comment and your acts show. I see you and some of the people who have joined you in deleting my citations protecting your own work,
To which work are you referring? --BostonMA 17:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
so why tell me it's improper to have the same attitude? I also don't see a general demand for "third party sources" in similar instances to those where I have provided these citations.
I have repeatedly pointed you to policies requiring third party sources. If you look around Misplaced Pages a bit, you will see many instances of content being deleted on the basis of lack of sources satisfying WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:RS. I invite you to spend some time following the discussions at WP:AfD. --BostonMA 17:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I stand by my argument that a 3rd party need not be cited simply to establish that a speaker appeared at an event or an entertainer at a concert, and that the fact may be notable without a newspaper or magazine reviewing it.
I agree that a fact may be notable without a newspaper or magazine reviewing it. Reviews are evidence and there may be other types of evidence. Do you have other evidence that you can offer, that we can all objectively evaluate? --BostonMA 17:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Many facts are. (Now if I stated "this was the most important appearance in this artist's career", THAT would need support.) Furthermore, knowing how you guys have acted in the past, such reviews would probably be criticized because they would compliment the event in general, and you'd call them "ad-like" or "promotional". Give me a break. Rosencomet 17:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you Assume Good Faith and give yourself a break. If you address the issues and arguments raised instead of thinking that those who have argued with you are blowing smoke, I think you would experience fewer problems. --BostonMA 17:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

re: How do I preserve my work?

Rosencomet, the problem is that this is Misplaced Pages and no one gets to "preseve" their work. Any editor can edit any article. The articles don't belong to anyone. They belong to Misplaced Pages.

Also, Misplaced Pages has rules. One of them is that editors should not edit articles about themselves or about subjects that they are too emotionally involved in to be neutral.

A core Misplaced Pages policy is that information in articles must be verifiable. This means that the article must cite references to neutral, unbiased, third-party sources. If such sources cannot be found, then the information can be removed from the article by any editor. This is a non negotiable Misplaced Pages policy.

What Carlton meant by his comment is that since August 13 you have done a lot of editing and it has all been in the service of preserving "your" work. You haven't done any editing only for the good of Misplaced Pages, for example, on articles that have nothing to do with the Starwood Festival articles or the people that appear there. (Now I expect User:Hanuman Das, User:999, or User:Ekajati will jump in here and tell me I am all wrong.) But I urge you to listen to what other Misplaced Pages editors are telling you. Mattisse(talk) 17:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll welcome Hanuman Das' comment if he gives one, but I can say you are wrong as well. As I said to BostonMA, I see you, he, Calton and others preserving your work whenever you believe it has been deleted without due cause, so don't hold me to a standard you do not follow yourselves. I also do not believe for a minute that every article you have written, edited, or otherwise affected were about subjects you don't care about. I have only been doing this since August, and I began with material I already was familiar with for obvious reasons, and topics I am interested in for obvious reasons. I began with material I had on hand, and wanted to contribute the benefit of my experience and research, especially in fields where I might be more knowledgeble than anyone else in Wiki with the motivation to spend some time with them.
I can get no benefit from adding bibliographies and discographies to the articles of musicians and speakers who have passed away like Babatunde Olatunji, Terence McKenna, Timothy Leary, Robert Shea, Baba Raul Canizares and the like, but I have spent a good deal of time doing so because I respect their work and I WANTED TO IMPROVE THEIR ARTICLES. I've searched for and included dozens and dozens of ISBN numbers, publishers, and publication dates for books TO MAKE THE BIBLIOGRAPHY MORE COMPLETE. What possible benefit or advantage could this give me?
Should I provide multiple citations to verify that the ISBN numbers I've added are the right ones? If I got them from Amazon.com, is that an improper source because they sell the books? If I list a musician's album produced by Capitol Records in 1963, is their website's catalog an inappropriate source for the fact? Do I need to find an article in a newspaper mentioning the ISBN number or the record's pressing date to "make it notable"? Some facts are notable without being newsworthy, and appropriate to an encyclopedia article. I'm sure you would not welcome someone analyzing each article you contributed and deleting every fact that lacks what you are calling a third party source.
The website I have cited for the appearances I've mentioned is the official website of the event at which the appearance occured. It is not run by me, it is not my personal page, and in fact I do not have a page anywhere. It is a perfectly appropriate source for the purpose for which I've used it: simply to establish the truth of a fact, that an appearance took place on a particular date. The notability of that fact may be based on the importance of the venue and other factors like how unique it was for such an artist to appear at such a venue, whether it expanded his/her audience, whether the artist is prominent as an authority in his/her field to the community associated with that venue, whether the appearance resulted in a publically-available product (a live concert or lecture CD, for instance), whether the appearance or a relationship with the hosting organization or community is documented elsewhere (say in an interview or journalist's book), whether it began an important collaboration, and a host of other possible factors, which may but need not be a newspaper or magazine. Addessing the Parliment of World Religions, for instance, is a notable acheivement for a speaker whether the fact appeares anywhere else that that organization's literature or not. Rosencomet 18:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


Making Myself Clear

I am sorry if my choice of Wiki "handle" has confused anyone, but I DID NOT CREATE THE ROSENCOMET.COM SITE, I DO NOT RUN IT, I DO NOT CONTROL IT, NOR HAVE I EVER DONE SO. I have no oversight position related to it, nor am I even on the crew that operates it. It is the official site of the Association for Consciousness Exploration, the organization that created and runs the Starwood Festival, the WinterStar Symposium, and the SpiritDrum Festival. IT IS, THEREFORE, A THIRD-PARTY SOURCE, being neither created or run by the subject nor the article's author. (Even in the case of the organization and events, an official site is considered an acceptable reference, and plenty of other references have been provided.)

Neither I nor anyone else is paid for any work done for ACE or on its behalf. I undertook to write and edit the articles I have been associated with on my own with no direction from ACE, nor was I intending to promote the activities of the organization, except in the sense that I wanted the Wiki readers to have complete descriptions of them. I extended my activities to speakers and entertainers who had appeared at them because I had much of the info at my fingertips, I respect their work, I noticed many of them either had no articles or had incomplete ones, and I thought it would be informative to the Wiki reader and fun for me. I linked them to the Wiki pages of the events they appeared at, which I think is absolutely appropriate, and to any other Wiki page I had verifiable knowledge of their association with. (I'd have done more of that, but the demand for citations made this too much work.) I also saw it as a way to give something back to these artists for the enjoyment I've gotten from their work over the years; I am a fan. It also seemed that it would be a benefit to the communities and interest groups I am a part of to make this information available (Neo-Pagans, Magical Practitioners, Consciousness Explorers, New Agers, Holistic Healers, fans of World, Jazz, Psychedelic, Celtic, and other Music genres, etc). It would be much more fun if I wasn't being harassed by those who have targetted these articles and keep coming up with different excuses and selectively-applied standards to mess with them. Rosencomet 18:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you getting ready to add Paul Beyerl & Annie Sprinkle to Starwood Festival?

Hi, when I see you adding your Starwood Festival people to other articles, I start to get worrried that you are grooming them to add to Starwood Festival or WinterStar Symposium or Association for Consciousness Exploration or Trance Mission or one of the other of your suite of articles sprouting out of www.Rosencomet.com. I'm hoping all roads don't lead to Rome. That is my hope, as Misplaced Pages is really not for self-promotion. It is supposed to be a collaborative effort and not WP:OWN. It would be better for you to give up your attempts to WP:OWN. It will be better for you and all of us. This is not enjoyable for any of us. It is awful. It takes the good meaning out of Misplaced Pages. Sincerely, Mattisse(talk) 07:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Neither Annie Sprinkle nor Paul Beyerl have been to Starwood or WinterStar. I simply created articles for them because I thought them notable and worthy of being included. This is the same crap I keep getting from you: stalking my articles and attacking them for no reason. Your "discussions" are just a cover for a program of regular attacks on anything I contribute, including these two articles which are not linked to Starwood. You have been engaging in this activity for months, and show no sign of relenting. I don't consider what I have been doing to be self-promotion, and I'm quite sick of your accusations. I have as much right to input articles into Misplaced Pages as you do, and I'm tired of your constant attempts to wage a war on my contributions. If this is not enjoyable for you, all you have to do is cut it out! How could ANYONE "assume good faith" under these conditions? 18:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

your link spam is growing again -

Rosencomet, your link spam is growing again - its up to at least 123 external links from Misplaced Pages to your www.rosencomet.com site. Do you not think that is enough? Misplaced Pages is not for the promotion of www.rosencomet.com. Also, you haven't answered my question yet about taking over more articles. Are you going to add more names to Starwood Festival/Association for Consciousness Exploration/WinterStar Symposium and in the process take over the articles on those people like you are doing with Raymond Buckland? Mattisse(talk) 19:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

  • A. It is not link spam; these are proper citations to support the information in the article.
  • B. I answered your question about the two articles you mentioned. Whether I do or don't add more names or other information to ANY articles is, frankly, none of your business and I have no responsibility to discuss the possibility with you.
  • C. IN NO WAY can anything I have done constitute "taking over articles". In the case of raymond Buckland, for instance, I added one sentence (with citation).

As I have said many times, I only referred to the Rosencomet website for citations to support statements about appearances, which I consider proper. YOU are one of the people who have made this necessary, posting "citation required" tags on articles where I did NOT do so. I recommend you stop complaining about it and go about posting or improving articles, instead of stalking and harassing me. Rosencomet 20:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi

hi Rosencomet, if you give me a list of the folks you want to create articles on, I will help with finding external sources. Geo. 02:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Due to some complaints, I can only give my opinion of whether or not the articles are notable. Geo. 17:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Citations

I highly recommend that you do not put back the citations any more. Looks like you are seriously outnumbered on the mediation page. However, there does not appear to be any agreement that the links to the Starwood Festival article need to be removed, so..... I suggest you simply restore mention of Starword without citations. If you persist in puting the citations back, the reaction might be to start removing wikilinks to Starwood and even a round of delete nominations. Really, I think you have won, the decision seems to be that Mattisse, socks and Timmy12 were wrong to insist on citations and that those citations are not needed. If you put them back, it may do more harm than good. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 17:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

Please go to the mediation page and object to the attempt to close the mediation. —Hanuman Das 02:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

RfC on Starwood

I see that you were not notified of the RfC on Starwood. This is, IMO, another indication of bad faith on the part of your opponents. They notified Mattisse and others on their side, but didn't notify you, H.D., or myself. Go to Talk:Starwood Festival and respond (last section). Try to keep it short and sweet, I think it will be more convincing and you can always link to your longer responses if you want. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 15:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

RfC on Starwood Festival Request

When I put the small, intended as neutral, paragraph at the top of the "comments" section of the RfC on Starwood, I hoped that people would take the hint and mostly allow editors uninvolved in the situation up to now to comment. I am disappointed to see replication of the arguments detailed rather thoroughly by mostly the same parties from both sides on the Starwood Festival Mediation page. The reason I linked to the mediation page in my short summing up of my position was to forestall such duplication and long-winded back-and-forths. I am putting this notice on the talk page of everyone who has posted in the comments of the RfC so far and who has also participated significantly in the mediation. I'm asking you to please refrain from using the RfC comment area. If you feel compelled to post there, please attempt to keep it short. This isn't a demand. There's no penalty for going against my request. I sincerely want to hear different voices on this matter and I am concerned that we are discouraging others from speaking up. --Pigman (talk • contribs) 23:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Per discussion on Talk:Starwood Festival, would you please hold off on adding, removing, or otherwise altering the links in question until the issue has been resolved? Thanks. - AdelaMae 18:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  • I will if others will, but this mediation should not be used to freeze my ability to do anything while others remove links, which has been happening all through it. Paul Pigman, in particular, not only removed many of them but characterized them as "linkspam", or even "gratuitous Starwood linkspam", on every single page he touched, and Kathryn called it "Google-bombing" even when there was no external link. On the advice of others, I have eliminated the external links on virtually all pages (even when they were not challenged, and against my view of what proper citation consists of). I had hoped that this would satisfy those who thought that I was trying to "link to a commercial site" or "advertise". That has not been the case: internal links have been taken down, articles have been challenged for notability, and Paul has declared his desire to see "at least a third" of the articles themselves taken down. Will you ask the same of him, Alli-oop, Kathryn and others? Rosencomet 18:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Abandoning the effort

Sorry to do this to you, but I've been intimidated into abandoning the effort. I wish you luck and hope you find many new allies. My last advice is to try to get more Neopagan editors involved. Most of the people involved have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to the Neopagan community and I think most have at least a slight, possibly unconscious bias against it. Some may actually be acting out their (anti-pagan) religious upbringing. I don't know how to tell which is which and don't care anymore. Good luck, though! —Hanuman Das 01:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, well, if they nominate anything for deletion, please let me know. I have no problem voting keep in such a case. I can't think of any offhand which deserve deletion. —Hanuman Das 02:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
User talk:Rosencomet/Archive 1 Add topic