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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mathsci (talk | contribs) at 18:59, 9 August 2006 (→Mathsci). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Mathsci

I slightly formatted. If possible, when citing websites use the syntax . ---CH 11:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. Since mathscinet is only available by subscription, I slightly changed your modification to display the actual MR reference number, which is usual practise nowadays. ---Mathsci 21:36, 7 February 2006 (CET)

Thanks for reverting to the pre-Syrran form. ---TheScienceGuy

As far as I can tell, you do not seem to have any scientific expertise. May I suggest that instead of pedalling half-truths (such as the claimed graduate course of Evans at the University of Glamorgan), you keep to facts that are verifiable? It is nonsense to suggest that a student is proposing two topics for a Ph.D. in physics at the University of Glamorgan, when the "university" does not even give undergraduate courses of any decription in this subject nor have any professed experts. At British Universities, Ph.D.'s are never conducted in this way. (I had 3 Ph.D. sudents at the University of Cambridge, one jointly between mathematics and theoretical physics.) If you continue to vandalise this wikipedia page, I think you are likely to be reported. Because you have admitted that you are not a disinterested party, I have reverted the page to its state prior to your interventins, with the addition of the corrected form of the two Civil List documents.

Perhaps you should read the agreement between myself and TheScienceGuy aka Lakhtakia on his talk page. We agreed to be neutral and, for a short while, he seemed to be living up to his end of the bargain.

I may not have a PhD but I do have a B.Sc(Hons) so I have some scientific expertise. You further note that I did not object to your removal of the story regarding Glamorgan, because, indeed, it was not 100% verifiable. Actually, if you check the history of changes, you will see that I removed the statement about undegraduate courses because that was certainly not correct. I also left in the text regarding Glamorgan's lack of physics department because that, too, is correct. If you re-read what I wrote, you will see that it is not a student that is making the proposal but a co-researcher of Evans. And it is just talk for the moment.

Additionally, I posted references to Evans' rebuttals rather than removing objections. Hardly vandalism.

As you already know, I uploaded two PDFs as evidence for the Civil List. I also wrote that one could view the official list at the House of Commons Library. This was removed by TheScienceGuy/Lakhatakia. Somebody of your academic ranking could easily be granted permission to confirm Evan's appointment. But I am grateful that you kept the two links to the PDF and corrected the syntax.

Furthermore, in accordance to Misplaced Pages's standard, I have not insulted anybody nor used harsh language. This is how gentlemen should conduct themselves, no matter how much they disagree. So I would prefer it if you used neutral language rather than strong words such as "vandalism". I have been educated by several Rhodes Scholars and Cambridge PhD graduates at my alma mater. A few were arrogant but they never treated people like this. This is not how scientists should behave towards each other, regardless of rank.

Therefore, I have to conclude that you are also not a "disinterested party". Would you object if I posted 10 or so objections from critics and Evans reponses to each one ? Or is this also "vandalism" ?

Syrran 07:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Your conclusions seem to be incorrect. I simply stated that I had 3 Ph.D. students at the Univeristy of Cambridge. From which you infer that I am still employed there, which you do not know to be the case. Nor do you know in which department or college I was employed. It is quite clear from the University of Glamorgan's website that they claim no expertise in physics - it is taught neither at an undergraduate nor postgraduate level and there is no department vaguely associated with physics. When somebody is enrolled for a Ph.D., the name of a supervisor and tentative title are normally supplied.

I have in any case restored the two pieces of evidence from Evans' website that you presented as evidence concerning the Civil List. These seemed to be the only pieces of concrete evidence you could offer for your claims. The statements about the University of Glamorgan were hearsay, because you did not provide any verifiable sources.

Vandalism refers to your attempt to sanitise the wikipedia page, gradually attempting to remove all reference to pseudoscience. As t'Hooft has written, Evans' ECE Theory seems to be one of the prime examples of pseudoscience. Your implicit idea that people editing this wikipedia page must somehow be connected seems to be unfounded. On the other hand I presume that followers of Evans actively communicate between themselves about the state of the wikipedia page and their various conspiracy theories. --Mathsci 09:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Please, read my messages to you properly. It's boring to go over the same points again and again.

It is just a trivial detail whether you are still at Cambridge or not. It is irrelevant. You should still behave like a neutral moderator instead of a playground bully.

I already agreed that there is no physics department at Glamorgan. And I repeat again, it was just talk and, naturally, not verifiable. Why do you keep bringing up that issue ? It is not really that important to the AIAS and nothing has been discussed about it since. Therefore I never objected to its removal - again I repeat myself for your benefit. Besides, Glamorgan, which I know is not rated highly amongst academics, can choose how to run its affairs as it wishes. Let's not split hairs, okay ?

I *already* thanked you for keeping the two links for the evidence of civil list. I also stated that one could approach House of Commons Library for independent confirmation, in case that you think that the documents are fake. If you privately think that they are fake, then report Evans to the police for forging the QE II's signature and a document from 10 Downing Street.

I can not see how it is either vandalism or sanitisation to post rebuttals to Evans' critics and to remove harsh language and insults. The Wikpedia Five Pillars advise neutrality and fairness. You should allow a person to defend themselves. The records will show that I tried to maintain the neutrality of the entry as much as possible. Otherwise, we may as well be in the Stalinist Soviet Union with show trials and trumped up charges. Or his moden counterparts, Mugabe and "Lil' Kim".

Besides, I am editing Evan's wikipedia directly on his behalf and with his approval. An individual is allowed to edit his own entry and should not be subjected to idle threats such as being "reported". I will remind you of the John Seigenthaler incident.

I never removed any references to Evan's critics. I see no reason why you might not be loosely connected to that very small team of people that oppose Evan's in a most ungentlemanly manner. I don't have proof, of course, but I also do not see you removing the patronising and insulting language from Evan's entry. So, while you might not be part of a "conspiracy", as you put it, you clearly show that you do not wish to fight fairly.

As for verifiable claims, please provide proof for the following statement: "This theory has not been accepted within mainstream physics. Neither has it been accepted by most fringe groups.". The Foundations of Physics Letters published several of Evans' papers in 2005. Go check for yourself. Unless I am mistaken, FPL is a mainstream physics journal. I am going to predict that you will make negative remarks about the editors in your reply. So be it.

Syrran 10:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It is interesting to hear that you are editing the wikipedia page on Evans' behalf. I think that must place under doubt any statement that you write and is contrary to wikipedia practices. Thank you for making your position clear.

As for the University of Glamorgan, you reported hearsay in an imprecise way, giving no verifiable references. It is what appeared in the wikipedia article that I am objecting to, not your subsequent justifications. What I stated applies equally well to Ph.D.s elsewhere in the world, e.g. Europe, the United States, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

The last statements that you refer to were not written by me. The first statement you quote is probably true, since no papers on ECE theory have been accepted by mainstream physics journals. You might be in a better position than me to comment on fringe groups in physics. --Mathsci 10:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Could you please point me to the relevant wiki regarding Misplaced Pages practices in this regard ? If what you are saying is true, then it looks like that I may have to withdraw from editing. I did post several verifiable claims, rather than removing others (which you and TheScienceGuy have done, contrary to Misplaced Pages practices).

For the same reason, TheScienceGuy should also then withdraw himself as we believe him to be Akhlesh Lakhtakia or a close associate. We gathered this from the physical location of the IP addresses that some of the edits are coming from and the contributions to other wikis. You may check this for yourself. I don't know if you realise this but Lakhtakia has a personal history with Evans. Again, read TheScienceGuy's talk page, especially his comments about Evans' supposed "depression". Whoever he is, he has made his position equally clear that he is an opponent of Evans and his work.

And since you still not have answered my question about posting his critics' objections and Evans' rebuttals, I have to also conclude that you are not neutral in this affair, again contrary to Misplaced Pages's Five Pillars.

Regarding your patronising statement about fringe groups: Not that it matters to Evans but, in the interests of verifiability, the contributor should post a reference. Otherwise, it should be removed in accordance with Misplaced Pages practices.

I once again refer you to FPL to counter your statement "no papers on ECE theory have been accepted by mainstream physics journals". The link to the online version is:

Below is one of the several articles on ECE published in 2005:

M. W. Evans, The Electromagnetic Sector of the Evans Field Theory, Foundations of Physics Letters, Volume 18, Issue 1, Feb 2005, Pages 37 - 51, DOI 10.1007/s10702-005-2468-6, URL

Syrran 12:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

In the physics world there has been a recent widely publicized case of people manipulating their own wikipedia pages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Bogdanov_Affair

Of course everybody is free to add references, clarifications, etc, but your attempt for example to remove the "disputed science" label did not seem to be in this spirit. Evans' science does not seem to be accepted by most mainstream physicists or mathematicians. This is confirmed by citation indexes and by the fact that there are no seminars on ECE theory at major universities or centres of research. Evans would otherwise surely have a proper academic job in Wales or elsewhere.

Incidentally, on a more abstract level, do you think that if somebody disagrees with another person's wikipedia edit, they should then participate in a campaign to have that person dismissed from their employment? To me, speaking as a non-expert, this would seem to be contrary to all wikipedia practices and would also seem to grossly overestimate the importance of unrefereed articles on the web.

--Mathsci 15:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you referring to the info box ? Well, perhaps I should edited the info box rather than removing it. I actually deleted it for aesthetic reasons. I find that the info boxes are not included when I save a wiki page for offline use. I found that annoying so I imagined others would. I am still new to wikipedia as you can tell from the incorrect syntax. Of course, you made that quite clear in the discussion page. Was that really necessary ?

The Bogdanov brothers don't look very friendly. I will have to read their entry carefully as it is quite long.

I see that you posted a few remarks on the discussion page. I think that you went a bit overboard. Could you tone it down a little, please ?

I am sure that only a few areas of science and scientists that can afford to hold or attend seminars. As I am sure that you will agree, they can be quite expensive events and that money has to come from somewhere. I have known an Oxford PhD and a Cambridge PhD who were not able to attend conferences because their grant money was too little. And they were not researching anything remotely controversial. One of them even had to survive on corn dogs for the entire period of the conference that he managed to attend ! But eventually, after many, many years, they managed to turn things around - by starting their own little conference. And it is slowly growing. Funny thing is, those two could have got all the money they wanted if they researched something else. But they enjoyed the struggling, it seems.

There are different types of disagreements. Some of them are rational and scientific. Others get a little weird. Call me paranoid if you want, but in light of your very recent comments on discussion page, it sounds like you are trying to trap me. Clever. You are probably referring to the matter between Myron and Akhlesh. There is much to this affair that you or I are not privy to. But I have seen some of the messages from Lakhtakia and Bruhn and they are quite strange and unpleasant. (What is their personal motivation ?)

I may have gone about it the wrong way when trying to balance Evans' wiki. I propose that we find someone who is neutral to edit the wiki. Perhaps one of the Misplaced Pages administrators. As you can tell, I left the papers criticising ECE in. Misplaced Pages prefers contributers to add rather than remove. But some comments by others were a bit silly and irrelevant, so I simply removed them and left in the references by his critics. To me, it would be obvious to any reader that there are people that dispute the theory. And so I thought that his critics would be satisfied. Guess I was wrong.

Syrran 16:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Remarks on Evans' blog about my wikipedia contributions seem ill-judged and intemperate. Some of them are quoted on the discussion page. I hope you distance yourself from them. It was to these remarks that I was referring. It is hard to take them seriously.

Seminars are held in universities as part of the normal running of any department. Given by invited speakers or departmental members, they normally reflect the interest of research groups there in current trends. This is one important barometer for gauging the influence of new ideas.

I do not at all agree with your statement "I propose that we find someone who is neutral ...". This is not how the wikipedia works. The world is not black and white, as you seem to imply. You have your own points of view, including received wisdom from the web pages of AIAS and an apparently unquestioning belief in the work of Myron Evans. You can try to represent these views, but other people, possibly more qualified than you, will then decide what they are worth.

I would prefer not to continue this discussion any further. I wish you luck in your future endeavours and thank you for being so reasonable.

--Mathsci 18:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)