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A selection of July and August's new articles...

Composer and Opera of the Month Proposals

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Composer of the Month for February 2025

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Opera of the Month for February 2025

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Click here to show the March and April Opera and Composer of the Month preparation areas

Composer of the Month for March 2025

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Opera of the Month for March 2025

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Composer of the Month for April 2025

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Opera of the Month for April 2025

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Clean up project: Copyright violations
Copyright clean up projectThis is an ongoing and vital project to clean up what is potentially a significant number of opera-related articles with copyright violations both from the Grove reference books and from other sources. Please see our copyvio cleanup page for details and how to help. Our purpose is to address a serious legal concern for Misplaced Pages and to maintain the integrity of articles under the scope of WikiProject Opera. All Misplaced Pages editors are encouraged to assist us.
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Archives – Table of Contents
Archives – Alphabetical Index

Article creation and cleanup requests

Note: Past creation and cleanup requests are archived here. Voceditenore (talk) 11:29, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Article requests
Cleanup requests
Voceditenore (talk) 18:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
This list is updated weekly, on a Tuesday (according to its History list). Scarabocchio (talk) 20:11, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Image requests

List here any articles for which you would like an image or any current images which could use cleanup or improvement.

WikiProject X

This is an initiative to improve WikiProjects and other subject-area collaborations on Misplaced Pages through research, design, and experimentation. The archive of their past newsletters is here. The WikiProject X coordinator is Harej. – Voceditenore (talk) 11:20, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Free subscriptions to databases

Voceditenore (talk) 10:53, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Opera articles: Recordings - which to exclude?

As there has been no further discussion on this since early December 2010, I've archived this here. But this is a topic we may want to revisit at some point, re expanding/clarifying the current article guidelines. Voceditenore (talk) 08:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The latest discussion (January 2014) is archived here. – Voceditenore (talk) 09:12, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Greetings from the German language Opera Project

Hello, just wanted to say Hi! from the German language Opera Project. We started in the beginning of 2011, a very recent effort compared to you. Likewise, our average articles on operas, composers etc. are quite behind the en:WP in terms of coverage and content. Which is a shame, considering the richness of opera life in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. We have started by focussing on the widely read articles on popular operas, see this List, which gives page impressions in de:WP and en:WP and also global number of productions per year as a proxy for popularity. The rationale is this: given our low number of contributors, having 20 formerly poor articles on popular operas turned into solid works is worth more then 20 more articles on arcane subjects. How did you go about growing your project? PS: Maybe there could be some areas of cooperation, especially as regards access to and understanding of German language sources and literature. Let me know what you think. --Non mi tradir (talk) 16:49, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

  • I have introduced this timely proposal to the discussion here. --Smerus 20:27, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Articles needing libretto links

Note that for now some of the Rossini librettos can still be accessed from the list on this page on Karadar, but it will require adding those new links to the articles, and I'm not sure how long it will be before Karadar closes that loop hole. Anyhow, here's the list of operas so far where I've removed dead links and there is currently no other alternative. It's also possible to recover some of the karadar links via the Wayback machine, as was done at L'éclair, although it's a bit fiddly. If you add a new link, just strike through the opera name(s) below. Voceditenore (talk) 16:55, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Help! Does anyone know how to access Karadar these days? It appears to be a dead link - and I've tried to get into it via a couple of ways. Viva-Verdi (talk) 16:15, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Hi Viva-Verdi. It appears to have disappeared in all its guises–.com, .org. and .it. I have a feeling they ran into copyright problems with some of their stuff. It's not showing up on Google searches at all and see this wacky note. I have found this other site which has links to zillions of libretti. Hopefully, you'll find the one(s) you're looking for. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:06, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
List

Le domino noir (only score found), Sigurd (opera), Ciro in Babilonia, Sigismondo, Ricciardo e Zoraide, Eduardo e Cristina, L'equivoco stravagante, I Capuleti e i Montecchi, Médée (Charpentier), Emilia di Liverpool, Francesca di Foix, Il signor Bruschino

Spam links to watch out for

Tool for finding all pages currently linking to a particular domain

Requested opera templates

Archived at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 120. Voceditenore (talk) 09:46, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Free access to RIPM

Hello all! The Misplaced Pages Library has just launched a partnership with RIPM to offer Wikipedians free access to this archive of music periodicals. Please sign up for one of the 20 free accounts at WP:RIPM. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:27, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Viva-Verdi

I have just heard that John Webber, known in these pages as Viva-Verdi, has died. RIP. Scarabocchio (talk) 14:32, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

  • What terribly sad news! He has been an editor since 2005 and was one of the most active and helpful members of the Opera Project....
Va, pensiero, sull'ali dorate
Voceditenore (talk) 15:19, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
--Smerus (talk) 19:50, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Terribly missed, such an inspiration based on profound knowledge, - no wonder he never replied to my last message, - Lacrymosa, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:47, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Very sad. RIP. --Folantin (talk) 11:05, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I teared up when I saw this, and it made me think how odd to feel a connection to someone I have never met in person and whose real name I never knew until after they were gone. You will be missed Viva-Verdi. To all in this project, I am proud to have worked with you on something of value to the world and I genuinely feel real affection for all of you. As a tribute to Viva-Verdi, perhaps he left work unfinished or unposted in his sandbox which we as a project might be able to complete in his honor. Best.4meter4 (talk) 01:42, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
My post there has a link to here, for the obituary. (Help me to remember to change it when this goes to the archive, please.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:30, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
Voceditenore has the obituary in her opening announcement there, so don't actually need to remember it for the obituary, but you might want to keep this link for these notes of remembrance which differ from those on that page..... Softlavender (talk) 06:59, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
  • John and I had been working on and off to upgrade the article on Falstaff with Featured Article in mind. I have now nominated it for FAC, as a valediction to a fine editor. All suggestions from Viva-Verdi's colleagues for improving it will be gladly received. Tim riley talk 12:24, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Almanacco Amadeus - Che disastro!

I knew it was only a matter of time before they monkeyed with the www.amadeusonline.eu/almanacco.php version. The search facility is now disabled and only renders the happenings for "today". We're back to 100s of broken links in refs. Most of the entries are available as cached versions via a Google search , e.g. , but I doubt if that will last long. Grrrrrr. Voceditenore (talk) 17:11, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Update Well, it's not a complete disastro, just a mezzo-disastro. The search facility is back on the .net version of the site at http://www.amadeusonline.net/almanacco.php. However, the URL for the results is completely different. You cannot simply substitute .net for .eu in the old URLs. Example:

Scarabocchio, is this going to be easy to fix in your Template:Almanacco? Voceditenore (talk) 08:21, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Done and tested. Scarabocchio (talk) 11:59, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks so much, Scarabocchio! If you hadn't spent all that time updating the old links with the new template a couple of months ago, we'd be in the proverbial soup now. Voceditenore (talk) 18:11, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Grazie, VdT, for these words and the barnstar, but I have only updated half of the links (around 350 or so). Can I give you half a barnstar back? .. perhaps in exchange for the proverbial paddle? Scarabocchio (talk) 20:54, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Piffle! Even half the links is a huge number (the template is already transcluded in almost 200 articles). I decree that you shall keep the whole Barnstar. Now, get cracking on the rest of those links! . Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:59, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
VdT, i vostri ordini sono deliziosi; il vostro modo di imporli ancora più amabile. Non è la prima volta, lo sapete, che rimpiango di non essere più vostro schiavo.... Done. Converting all of the .eu links on my list has taken us to 502 transclusions. Scarabocchio (talk) 10:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Composer/opera of the month

This seems to have gone dead (see top of page and click 'show')- are there any proposals forthcoming?--Smerus (talk) 17:24, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Smerus. Sometimes people do make proposals. If not, I fill in the template myself shortly before the month changes with something to work on so that there's always a CoM and OoM on the main project page. See here for the current ones. (If they're showing blank just click of the "refresh" link in the template.) I try to make them related to some anniversary in that month. I'd be delighted if people were more active in filling in the proposals. Sometimes it makes my brain hurt trying to cook up something at the last minute . Voceditenore (talk) 17:46, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
OK I think part of the trouble may be that the template is in a 'click to show' format - if it was open and gaping to the four winds we (scilicet: I) who mainly look at the talk page rather than the front page perhaps would be more likely to note it and make proposals/take action on them. In the meantime I will rack my brains (such as remain) for some suggestions, and consider what I could do for June..--Smerus (talk) 17:58, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Maybe there's an opera being resurrected for a summer festival which could serve as a focus for wiki-inspiration? - kosboot (talk) 18:00, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
June's already done and on the main project page, Smerus. We need proposals for July, August, and September. The script for the proposals was written by Adam Cuerden. It's quite ingenious. When the first of the month comes around, the proposal for that month automatically moves from here to the main page and a new proposal form automatically moves onto the talk page so that there are always forms available for the next three months. Voceditenore (talk) 18:18, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
PS I could uncollapse the proposal forms, but they would be whopping. Maybe I'll try first reminding everyone here about filling them in each month. Voceditenore (talk) 18:23, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
If I might suggest, it would be fairly easy to add a bit to the script that would put next month's proposal outside the collapse box, then have the two months after that collapsed.
As for a proposal, as you likely know, Viva-Verdi died recently. I realise that Verdi doesn't have a lot of gaps, but, given he was so active here, it may be worth doing improvement drives. Giuseppe Verdi looks to just to need some sourcing and cleanup for good article, for instance. Adam Cuerden 22:10, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
This seems an excellent idea - at first glance btw the article is very heavily over-pictured, and will need some stripping to reach GA.--Smerus (talk) 08:07, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Inclined to agree. It also needs a bit more standardizing - the images lurch to the left and right seemingly at random, and with sizes also seemingly chosen at random. Adam Cuerden 10:17, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
I've put him in for July, and found three operas of his that are major operas and lack key sections, that would make good projects. Adam Cuerden 18:05, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Another idea: to the composer & opera of the month, add singer of the month. Even if not tagged, some of the singer bios are not really up to the standard of a reasonable WP article. It might be a way to help teach newbies (like the user talked about in discussions above) a different way of approaching article creation. kosboot (talk) 22:39, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
I think that was actually the original selections (One opera, one singer), but they got switched to the current arrangement a while after this was set up. Adam Cuerden 18:26, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
kos and Adam, Composer of the Month, was started in 2006 and originally focused on creating articles for operas by various composers in The Opera Corpus. It now focuses on improving opera composers' biographies and the coverage of subjects related to their works. In late 2007 Singer of the Month was added and focused on creating articles for singers. Then people found it a bit too restrictive. So from January 2009, this was changed to Opera of the Month and now focuses on improving existing articles on an opera (or operas) and subjects related to them (including article creation or improvement for their role creators). The archive of all the past monthly collaborations is here. There's no reason why we couldn't sometimes focus on a single singer article to improve in the OoM and temporarily re-title it SoM, if there are people prepared to work on one. Voceditenore (talk) 14:26, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
On the main point, Template:OotMProposed has been updated. It should be fairly clear what's going on - I've upgraded the script to use the #time Parser function which vastly simplifies that template (check the history). All you need to know to read it is that the {{#time:F|now+1 month}} things are just a way to return the name of the month (or year when it's #time:Y) in a certain number of months in the future. Adam Cuerden 18:23, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Verdi image project

I wanted to something in Viva-Verdi's memory, and trying to get more Verdi featured content seemed suitable. Want to commit to this here so I can't back out. Adam Cuerden 17:56, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

At the same time I've been looking at Giuseppe Verdi and tried to weed out some of the images which are/were cluttering the article, whilst thinking of how to move the article as a whole to GA. When you say 'Verdi image project' is this a generic move to populate/create more Verdi articles including illustrations - or do you have saomething else in mind?--Smerus (talk) 18:13, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
More to provide better images for Verdi's operas, which are much less-well illustrated. Also, a lot of these are already used, but really, really badly. Have a look, for example, at the appalling crop used in Giovanna d'Arco. Edit: Not anymore. Adam Cuerden 18:21, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
This sounds like a good idea, Adam. Another article that is a nightmare "bag of a thousand pix" is Vincenzo Bellini. A hapless editor tried to do something about it but got reverted as "vandalism " by a rather clueless ClueBot . Something to keep in mind for another CoM perhaps. Voceditenore (talk) 14:14, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
@Voceditenore: Ooh, Bellini's particularly bad as there's not even context given. E.g. "Composer Luigi Cherubini". Worse, the only mention of Cherubini in the text? "Among the many musical figures were several Italian such as Michele Carafa and the imposing Luigi Cherubini, then in his seventies." - NOTHING ELSE ABOUT CHERUBINI IS SAID IN THE ENTIRE ARTICLE. I'm honestly inclined to just strip out any image not depicting him or monuments to him, his operas, a librettist, or someone mentioned in the title of a section, and start over. Adam Cuerden 14:46, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
@Voceditenore: I went ahead and revised images in Vincenzo Bellini. I think it looks a lot more professional, and what images are used have impact. Adam Cuerden 15:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks so much Adam. That's a huge improvement! If I stumble on any more over-pixed articles that could use your pruning shears, I'll post 'em here. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 10:26, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
PS The images you've done so far are fab, Adam! And many thanks to Crisco 1492 who uploaded many of the originals. I've reduced the size of the gallery images, by half, as they were making the page very slow to load, and not great for small screens. But I urge everyone to click on them to see the now very impressive full-size versions. Voceditenore (talk) 11:00, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

To do

Also: André-Adolphe-Eugène Disdéri's photos of Verdi; http://www.stadtmuseum.de/sites/default/files/mediapool/ct_veranstaltung/verdi_360dpi-a4_003.jpg and http://www.rts.ch/2013/10/09/09/18/5278596.image

Bonus To Do

Things he worked on less extensively.

Things he probably would be happy I worked on, even if he didn't

Because, frankly, I think he'd be happy I was editing opera on his behalf, even if it was different operas. Going to focus on ones he at least curated, though.

Done

There are currently 38 restorations, which can be viewed at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Opera/Verdi image project results, as they were slowing down loading of this talk page.

Verdi

With a view to getting Giuseppe Verdi up to GA (eventually), I've now weeded out and reorganized many of the images in the article, and begun copyediting. But in the process it looks to me like the article needs very substantial rewriting. It is full of a lot of clutter detail about individual operas that really belong in the opera articles rather than the biography article. And there is very little about influence, etc. (or indeed provenance - what V took over from Grand Opera, Rossini, etc. etc.). In the process V's actual life seems to me difficult to extrapolate for the general reader. But before I go much further I would appreciate some other opinions. Best, --Smerus (talk) 19:35, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

One thought: Check the opera pages. Some of the material to be cut might be useable there; the opera pages are hardly perfect. Adam Cuerden 20:24, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, I've flushed out a number of pix, and relocated details on the operas to a separate section. This has revealed that the biography section was extremely uneven, containing a lot of inconsequential detail and unenlightening quotes from various writers; many passages were (and are) based on one particular biographer, with much space given to rumour and suppositions. I've begun to copyedit the existing text, inadequate though it is. For example, there is almost nothing on the final 20 years of Verdi's life. I would hope eventually to achieve a complete rewrite, based on four areas - biography, music, reception and legacy - which I have found to be appropriate and acceptable in other GAs on which I have worked. But this is going to take quite a while.--Smerus (talk) 07:18, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Is there anything I can do? I don't have a lot of sources to hand, but I could hit the library if given a task. Adam Cuerden 12:42, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Adam, I suggest that I plough on till I get the thing down to basics and then I will start re-building and give you a call. Best, --Smerus (talk) 13:15, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Featured operatic pictures

Un ballo in maschera, I Lombardi, Giovanna d'Arco, Les Troyens, La Prise de Troie, Les Troyens à Carthage is are now a featured pictures. The images for Rigoletto, I Lombardi alla prima crociata, Giovanna d'Arco, and Les Troyens , are up at featured picture candidates, but - probably owing to it being the time university students have their final exams, at a guess - participation at featured pictures is in the middle of a lull, and, with the exception of the three Les Troyens images and I Lombardi, they may not reach quorum and thus have to be renominated later. Adam Cuerden 20:52, 15 June 2015 (UTC) Update: Problem seems to have passed; only Rigoletto failed to reach quorum. Adam Cuerden 15:54, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Adam. The 3 new FAs have been added to the Portal:Opera rotation as Selected pictures 53, 54, and 55. Voceditenore (talk) 07:51, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
Few more! Adam Cuerden
Ditto for the Les Troyens score set. See the Portal's Selected pictures 56, 57, and 58. Voceditenore (talk) 08:02, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Heh. Beat me to it! Thanks, Voceditenore! Adam Cuerden 09:22, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Also featured: File:Carl Nielsen c. 1908 - Restoration.jpg and File:Giuseppe Verdi, La traviata title page - Restoration.jpg. Adam Cuerden 00:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

File:Jacques Offenbach - A. Jannin - Robinson Crusoé.jpg was featured today. Adam Cuerden 15:44, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

File:Giuseppe_Verdi,_Rigoletto,_Vocal_score_illustration_by_Roberto_Focosi_-_Restoration.jpg as well. Adam Cuerden 09:23, 5 July 2015 (UTC) File:Strauss, Richard - Ariadne auf Naxos - Restoration.jpg which I think is the first modernist opera with a featured picture (or, at least, one specific to it). Adam Cuerden 02:01, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to stop listing. They're coming in rather fast, and I'm marking them up above with stars. Adam Cuerden 17:20, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

2015 BBC Cardiff Singer of the World competition

Someone has created Nadine Koutcher (the winner) today. It's a two-sentence stub that could use... er... considerable expansion. I swapped out the ever-ghastly {{infobox Musical artist}} for the more tasteful {{Infobox person}}. I've created a stub which also needs expansion for Jongmin Park, who won the Song Prize.

Meanwhile, it appears that an article has existed since 2012 for the chap who won the Dame Joan Sutherland Audience Prize, but it's currently got a Mongolian-style title, Enkhbatyn Amartüvshin (patronymic first). Not sure how appropriate that is. Anyhow, I've created a redirect for the name he's known by in European opera houses, Amartuvshin Enkhbat. Maybe should be the other way 'round?

I had rather fancied Oleksiy Palchykov, a Ukranian tenor who already has a significant career and won the first heat, but I gather he wasn't loud enough. Voceditenore (talk) 14:03, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

The Mongolian guy was by far the best in the competition. We will hear a lot more of him; definitely keep the article under one title or other. Koutcher a knock-out in terms of technique but void of personality. Palchykov will do well on some kind of '3 Tenors' circuit, I'm sure. Park gave the best individual performance last night with the slander song.--Smerus (talk) 15:52, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
Oh it's definitely appropriate to have an article on the Mongolian. I was just questioning the appropriateness of its current title. Having said that, the article could use clean up and better referencing. Voceditenore (talk) 16:24, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
PS Rupert Christiansen said "I was much more taken by the sweet-toned tousle-haired Ukrainian tenor Oleksiy Palchykov, whose 'Una furtiva lagrima' showed bags of the charm in short supply elsewhere." At least someone agrees with me, Smerus . Voceditenore (talk) 16:51, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
  • More info (if needed and if folks don't already have these): Since BBC TV iPlayer is only viewable from the UK, but BBC Radio iPlayer is listenable worldwide, here are the radio programmes listenable from anywhere, online:
  1. Highlights of the early stages, 16–19 June (four parts; they expire approximately 16 July)
  2. Finals, aired 19–21 June (two parts; expires approximately 18 July)
Can post these on article talk page(s) as well, if desired. They can also provide citations for missing information.
-- Softlavender (talk) 12:12, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Voice classification for contemporary roles

On articles that list roles by voice type, the only source cited is Guide to Operatic Roles and Arias, and there are very few roles from contemporary opera listed. Is there a good source for classifying roles from more contemporary opera composers like Philip Glass, Harrison Birtwistle or Kaija Saariaho?SpiritedMichelle (talk) 19:08, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi SpiritedMichelle. For contemporary works, the music publisher usually has authoritative information. See for example, Boosey & Hawkes's description of Birtwistle's The Minotaur here and Chester Music here for Philip Glass's Appomattox. You can also take as authoritative any voice type descriptions which appear on a composer's official website, liner notes if the opera has been recorded, or opera house programs, particularly if it was for the world premiere production. Voceditenore (talk) 19:41, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

FA for 2017 main page- Don Carlos

I know the project has already selected Don Carlos for next month's 'Composer of the Month' section. I thought I might point out that the 150th anniversary of the opera is on March 11, 2017 which is not all that far off. Perhaps a concerted effort could be made to get this article up to FA class in time to appear on the main page on that date. Best.4meter4 (talk) 01:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

I have a couple good images for it.... Adam Cuerden 06:26, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Getting Giuseppe Verdi to GA

OK I've now created a full(ish) version of the article but am feeling brain-dead. Please look and comment - is it now appropriate to go for peer review - or even for GA review?--Smerus (talk) 10:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

It looks pretty solid. I haven't checked everything though. I'll probably go in and tweak the images - I think they look better with a bit more consistent sizing. On the whole, though, it's very solid looking, and I can't imagine that GA review would hurt it at all: Either it will pass, or some minor issues will be raised (and fixed). I'd rather peer review after GA: This is getting near FA-quality; I think we can push it through fairly easy.
One thing I notice: There's a lot of Harvard reference errors in the references; This appears to be of the not-very-serious variant where there's a minor setup issue. E.g. "Budden 1993" (ref. 109) says it has no reference to link to, but there's clearly a Budden 1993 in the list, as anyone looking themselves will see - it'll be something minor. I'll work to fix that later on. There may be one or two typos/missing references - I note a Budden 1996 (reference 108, et al) which has nothing to link to (is it meant to be Brook 1996?), hence why checking for Harv cite errors is useful - but I'll have a full list once I'm done tweaking. Adam Cuerden 10:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

@Smerus: Okay, here's the referencing errors:

Rosselli 2000 does not exist. No obvious correction. (used a lot)
Rosselli 2004 does not exist. No obvious correction. (used a lot)
From the list, Rosselli, John (1997). The life of Verdi. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press... does exist, but is not used.
Parker 1988a does not exist; probably Parker 1998a?
Possibly related - or possibly not - from the list, Parker, Roger (2007a). The New Grove Guide to Verdi and His Operas. is not used.
Budden 1994a does not exist, may be 1984a.
Chusid 1991 does not exist. (uncertain correction)
Chusid 1983 does not exist. (uncertain correction)
Reference 74 lacks a year.
Osborne 1992 does not exist.
Budden 1996 does not exist (used several times) - May be meant to be Brook 1996 or one of the other Buddens?
From the list, Brook (ed.), Stephen (1996). Opera: A Penguin Anthology. not used
Berlin 1969 does not exist. May be 1979?
From the list, Gossett, Philip (2008). Divas and Scholars: Performing Italian Opera. is not used
From the list, Kelly, Thomas Forrest (2004). First Nights at the Opera. is not used.
From the list, Petrobelli, Pierluigi (2001). "Giuseppe Verdi (1813 - 1901)". Istituto di studi verdiani. is not used.

I can't fix any of these without access to the sources to check the references - it's not clear, and we don't want to get this fixed wrong. Adam Cuerden 11:35, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

No problems, now you have pointed out I will fix. Very many thanks for this spotting.--Smerus (talk) 16:29, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Done now I think. Just my sloppy typing. But I have checked all with the references I have by me. Do please deal with the images as you feel appropriate.--Smerus (talk) 17:16, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Verdi now up for GA

For those who are interested, Giuseppe Verdi is now up for GA - anyone is welcome to start the review. Best, --Smerus (talk) 10:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Smerus. We humans tend to be responsive animals, reacting to what we see/ hear/ read – I've quickly eyeballed your major rewrite of the Verdi article, but find myself merely reacting to what you have written, and I need some time to step back and consider the structure/ balance of the article, and to note on a shirt cuff what I might expect to see in an article on Verdi. I've thrown in a half-dozen minor copy-edits, but will take time to come back with something fuller anon. Scarabocchio (talk) 13:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
One thing that will be be in my comments is the lede -- the introduction of Wagner into the lede has always rankled. If it is worth mentioning that "Wagner and Verdi are the two pre-eminent composers of the 19th century" inside the Verdi lede, surely it should be added to the Wager lede too? It should be in both, or neither. Scarabocchio (talk) 13:24, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Noted, thanks. There is a lot of thrashing about of the images at the moment which is waiting to settle down - I'd be interested if people are willing for some comments on the visual inpact as well, although of course the information content is key. I agree re Wagner and will reconsider this.--Smerus (talk) 18:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
On the visual side, I have to admit to a sneaking liking for some of the Viva-Verdi pictures that were new to me ... images that you would not see if you were restricted to one or two pictures per section because they are always the third or fourth choice. Perhaps we could follow the example of the Encyclopédie and have a separate volume (article) of illustrations, perhaps a timeline for Verdi's life, with maps of the political state of Italy through his life, a few words on the key events shaping the political and cultural landscapes in the countries in which he was active, and the images left over from the Verdi article... One of the WPs does this sort of contextual article, perhaps the Italian? Scarabocchio (talk) 19:49, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, I will look at this. I reworded the lead slightly about Wagner. But on consideration, the thing is this (it appears to me): whilst Wagner was virtually never in his time compared with Verdi, Verdi was frequently compared with Wagner and his use (or absence of use) of Wagnerian techniques was frequently commented on. This is mentioned in the article; and I think therefore that Wagner does merit a passing reference in the Verdi lead, but not vice-versa.--Smerus (talk) 20:08, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Btw I will just remind all concerned about the criteria for GA - they are not too forensic!--Smerus (talk) 21:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Now GA.--Smerus (talk) 19:12, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Bravo to all involved, including Viva-Verdi! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:22, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Arundel Festival

Hi all. Just noticed we don't have an article on the Arundel Festival which does produce opera among other arts. I'm not from the UK and know nothing about it. Anyone care to take a crack at creating an article?4meter4 (talk) 21:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

From an opera point of view, it's not really important. Here's the blurb for this year's festival. What they have opera-wise is this outfit performing stuff like Così fan tutte with a small orchestra in one of the rooms of Arundel Castle, although not every year. Voceditenore (talk) 15:31, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Interesting. I had thought maybe there was more happening there in the past as Iain Hamilton's Lancelot had its world premiere there in 1985.4meter4 (talk) 17:08, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

AfD: Judit Kutasi

Discussion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Judit Kutasi. Voceditenore (talk) 17:54, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Sourcing Attila B. Kiss

Hi all. I just came across a new poorly conceived article which I have been cleaning up. I am having a bit of trouble finding references for tenor Attila B. Kiss (often given as Atilla Kiss B.; Opera magazine specifically says it should be Atilla B. Kiss) which was recently created by another editor with no references. He has won two notable prizes (although there are no sources for this), so notability is probably not an issue. That said, everything I've come across so far other than one mention in a review in Opera seems to be press releases from the opera houses which include his bio most likely written by his agent. Another issue I've come across is when the article was created the author describes him as Hungarian even though he was born in Romania, trained in Romania, and made his professional debut in Romania (according to the Hungarian wikipedia which entirely unreferenced). He has been working primarily at the Hungarian State Opera House in recent years and he is from a part of Romania that used to be part of Hungary, so I suppose its possible that he became a Hungarian citizen and that he may be of Hungarian ethnic descent. For the time being I changed the article to Romanian until a source can prove otherwise. Any help sourcing or expanding this stub would be helpful.4meter4 (talk) 03:12, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

I've added a ref for the prizes. He was also awarded the Order of Merit of the Republic of Hungary. And, he appeared in a fairly major film of Erkel's opera Bánk bán, singing the title role (ref added). If he was awarded the Order of Merit of the Republic of Hungary, he is probably of Hungarian nationality now, but I'm removing the Nationality parameter from the infobox. Without a reliable source, nothing should be listed. It's not a place for guesswork. Voceditenore (talk) 14:44, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. Sounds good.4meter4 (talk) 23:32, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Clean up of a likely COI created article

Although VOICExperience Foundation is not the worst COI creation I've ever seen, it does need some help. At least the author took the time to add some good references to the article, even if the tone is somewhat unencyclopedic. It needs categories and cleanup. Best.4meter4 (talk) 05:36, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

There's no evidence of any independent notice having been taken of this organization in the press. There are zillions of these young singer workshops. The "best" reference is a puff-piece in Classical Singer. As a stand-alone article it would never survive an AfD. Particularly inappropriate was the list of their former students and their subsequent employment, not one of whom has an article or appears to be notable, despite this program being 15 years old. The references for the singers merely verify their performances elsewhere, not that they studied with the program. I have created a brief, factual section (minus the puffery) in the article about Milnes and have redirected the page to Sherrill Milnes#VOICExperience Foundation. Voceditenore (talk) 09:02, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Good plan. I agree that a redirect is the best decision. Perhaps we should place a COI note on the talk page of the user who created the article.4meter4 (talk) 17:02, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Frequently performed (female) opera composers

I have added a column for composer gender to the new table of Frequently performed opera composers despite my incurable gender-blindness, and feeling that gender is given too much weight in general. I'm with Thea Musgrave on this one ("Thea Musgrave is frequently interviewed and questioned about being a "woman" composer, to which she has replied; "Yes, I am a woman; and I am a composer. But rarely at the same time." (her website, at some time in the past)). That said, composers of the female gender are a very high-profile topic at the moment, and some readers may wish to know how they fare in numbers and rankings compared with the composers of the male gender. Scarabocchio (talk) 12:59, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

I think the biggest obstacle to female opera composers in the past was that it was the most expensive type of musical composition to put on, and thus had the biggest obstacles from prejudices. I'd like to think those barriers have, at least, somewhat been pulled down now. I think this is why specific efforts to rescue from obscurity works by female composers of the past is valuable. Otherwise... think it's very easy to fetishize it, and that's patronizing itself. For example I think that Ethel Smyth should be performed more often. This is because I've heard her music, and it's quite good, and has a distinct voice. It's hard to judge Smyth perfectly, though - she has a lot of works not even recorded. I'm pretty sure there are masses of worse works than Smyth with far more prominence. Adam Cuerden 13:24, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Scarabocchio! That's really useful and will come in handy in March (Women's History Month), when the CoM has been a woman composer for the last few years. March 2014 and 2015 was Musgrave and March 2013 was Ethel Smyth. That one was particularly successful, resulting in the creation of articles for her Fantasio, Der Wald, Fête Galante, and Entente Cordiale. Voceditenore (talk) 15:12, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
It looks like there are two women composers on the list that wikipedia doesn't have articles on: Elisabeth Naske (along with the operas Die feuerrote Friederike and Die Omama im Apfelbaum) and Lynne Plowman (along with the operas Gwyneth and the Green Knight, House of the Gods, The Face in the Mirror, and Captain Blood’s Revenge). One of them would make a great composer of the month for March 2016.4meter4 (talk) 17:07, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Re: Smyth. It looks from this page, that the Boatswain's Mate is to be recorded this autumn. They'll be using the chamber orchestration used in last year's performances (in German, alas) in Lucerne. I remember the libretto (by Smyth herself) as comparable to Gilbert on a good day, so this will be one to look out for. An interesting sentence on that page: "There is no doubt that, with the general boom in women’s music, and the fact that her music goes out of copyright next year (2015), we will be hearing a lot more of Smyth in the future." It also just happens(?) that it is the work's centenary next January. Scarabocchio (talk) 19:05, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
That would be a nice project for an FA, though it does face issues of more material coming out as it gets nearer. Adam Cuerden 19:11, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Adam, if you are serious, have a look at these pages for the Ethel Smyth Research Centre, created in Detmold after the 2008 festival to mark the 150th anniversary of her birth. In addition, the people behind Retrospect Opera, those making the recording, sound as if they would be amenable to sharing what they have. En passant, the toothbrush used to conduct her March of the Women, quoted in the overture and relevant to the plot, is in a display case of Suffragette items in the Museum of London. Scarabocchio (talk) 19:31, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Re: Naske. Not forgetting her 2014 Der satanarchäolügenialkohöllische Wunschpunsch ... Scarabocchio (talk) 19:34, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Opera of the Month proposal

Hi all. I just noticed that The Taming of the Shrew (opera) actually links to a section on opera adaptations in the wikipedia article about the play. There are many operas that have been based on Shakespear's The Taming of the Shrew, most of which have no articles on wikipedia. I would suggest that we create articles on the operas mentioned in the article on the play. Best.4meter4 (talk) 19:59, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

"John Kendrick Bangs' Katherine: A Travesty (1888) is a Gilbert and Sullivan-style parody operetta which premiered in the Metropolitan Opera" - why am I suspicious of that "Gilbert and Sullivan-style" description? Burlesques and travesties long predate Gilbert, indeed, he got his start doing them. On the other hand, H.M.S. Pinafore madness is documented in America at around that time, so it's not an impossible influence... Adam Cuerden 20:25, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

    • Ah, this makes more sense: It was a burlesque with some songs based off of pre-extant Gilbert and Sullivan numbers. Not quite the same thing, but at least in the ballpark. Adam Cuerden 20:27, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Anyway, back to the original. I think step one is figuring out which ones were more than flashes in the pan - or, at least, big enough flashes in the pan to be worth an article. There's a few possibilities we could pull out of there, though. Adam Cuerden 20:31, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I personally have an interest in writing on Vittorio Giannini's The Taming of the Shrew (1953), and Dominick Argento's Christopher Sly (1963); both of which have had more than one staging. I know nothing about the others, but the article indicates that Ruperto Chapí's Las bravías was incredibly popular so there must be quite a lot of material for that opera as well. Best.4meter4 (talk) 23:24, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Request for semi-protection at Whistle Register?

Please read and comment at Talk:Whistle register#Request for semi-protection? 4meter4 (talk) 03:17, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

I feel your pain, 4meter4, but in my experience, requests for semi-protection are generally only granted if the page has been subjected to IP/new user vandalism on an almost daily basis for a lengthy period or if it has been subject to serious BLP violations. They won't apply it to articles like this where people "in good faith" add poor or unreferenced material. My suggestion would be that several of us put the article on watch and remove any inappropriate additions with an edit summary explaining the reason for the removal. It's also a good idea not to simply "undo", which triggers the red notice to the person who has added the material and invites a return to a page they may not even be watching after the drive-by edit. Better to open the editing window and remove the problematic material manually. I've edited the edit notice to:
<!--Please do NOT add examples of singers who use the Whistle register without a reliable cited source verifying it. ALL unreferenced additions will be removed.-->
I've also moved it to the top of that section for greater visibility. Voceditenore (talk) 17:41, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for clearing that up and lending a hand.4meter4 (talk) 23:31, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Musician notability discussion

Members may want to comment at Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (music)#Proposal to remove "Has won or placed in a major music competition." from "from Criteria for musicians and ensembles". – Voceditenore (talk) 17:16, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

R.I.P. Jon Vickers

As most of you have probably seen in the news, tenor Jon Vickers has died. His article is in bad shape and is likely to get a lot of traffic this week. The following news articles could be used to cite and improve the article if anyone is interested:

Best.4meter4 (talk) 20:40, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

It looks like User:Kudzu1 has done a nice job cleaning up the article. Kudzu1 has also nominated the article for in the news section on the main page. Please consider commenting at Misplaced Pages:In the news/Candidates.4meter4 (talk) 17:50, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
I added refs from Bayreuth and the MET, - both could be used more, - my time is limited, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:45, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
I have a general question: when I mention an opera with a link, I don't link to the composer, to fight the "sea of blue". I don't think someone interested in the singer desperately needs a link to Wagner while there is one to Die Walküre. Are there project guidelines, or is it another matter subject to the editor's preference. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:06, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
There are no project guidelines, just common sense, and, I suppose, editors' preferences to some extent. But I agree with you, Gerda, I almost never link the composer when there is a link on the opera closely following it, and the opera itself is the main point of the sentence. It's really overkill and especially for "big" names like Wagner, Puccini, Verdi, Mozart, etc . Voceditenore (talk) 08:06, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Would you have a look at Vickers which had few composers to start with, but now has them all linked? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:00, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Hi Gerda. Yes, there is too much composer linking there. But I suggest not doing anything about it until it gets off the Main Page. It just causes kerfuffles. I actually added another link... on Covent Garden. I wish people wouldn't just baldly use that without a link as if everyone knows that "Covent Garden" is what the in-crowd call the Royal Opera House. Lots of people, even ones who listen to opera and/or aren't entirely unfamiliar with it, don't know that. Interestingly, there is something about that in the OP Guidelines. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 07:16, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Vickers added to ITN recent deaths 16 July --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:29, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Les contes d'Hoffmann

I have a number of images without attribution to acts, so I thought I'd come here to check:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85274984/f3.item.r=Les%20contes%20d%27Hoffmann%20Offenbach is the prologue, not the epilogue, right?

Is http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85274984/f5.item.r=Les%20contes%20d%27Hoffmann%20Offenbach the Antonia act, or is it the Olympia act sans the spectacles?

Is http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85274984/f2.item.r=Les%20contes%20d%27Hoffmann%20Offenbach identifiable at all as to act?

Is http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85274984/f1.zoom.r=Les%20contes%20d%27Hoffmann%20Offenbach is the Giulietta act? There's some elements of the staging that are a little confusing, but I can't think of any other duel, let alone an important one.

Adam Cuerden 20:25, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

  1. I'm going to guess prologue based on the clock in the corner, but it's pretty hard to tell, I think.
  2. That's the Olympia act, harpist and all.
  3. Caption says the 2nd act divertissement. Is this from a larger document where we can see which of the acts is act II in this version?
  4. Definitely Giulietta act, check out the canals!
–Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:39, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Well, the third image is from 1881, which might help, but I'm not sure if the prologue is being counted. I have an Antonia image - http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85274984/f9.zoom.r=Les%20contes%20d%27Hoffmann%20Offenbach - so, it's not too vital we get that one, given we have a good Olympia, and I don't want to stuff the page with images, after all. I shall get a chance to see the opera in Autumn, but I haven't yet, which doesn't help with these kind of things. Adam Cuerden 20:51, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, if we can't tell which act it's from, it probably isn't a very useful resource for the reader either! I like that Antonia-act pic. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:13, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
@Roscelese: All the colour images by A. Lamy (Prologue, Olympia, Giulietta) are now done and in the article. Antonia will follow. Adam Cuerden 14:34, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

21st Century Baritones

The article on the baritone voice type needs to be updated to include prominent singers of the 21st century. SpiritedMichelle (talk) 02:02, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi SpiritedMichelle. The article is about the voice type. Not a list of "prominent" baritones, which is potentially endless and a subjective judgement. We took the decision a while back to eliminate the name lists of "prominent singers" from the voice type articles. See this discussion in the archives. List of operatic baritones might be a useful addition to create, provided it contained more information than Category:Operatic baritones, e.g. listing by century with brief descriptions for each entry, and you don't mind it growing huge. Everyone thinks "their" baritone (or in some cases the baritone himself thinks) they're prominent. Voceditenore (talk) 06:22, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Update project

Thank you for updating the project page regarding templates. How about a different composer than Verdi to illustrate the side navbox? Perhaps a word about that a side navbox is not needed when a bottom navbox is there? (That is a dangerous comment which can get you arbcom restricted but if it is made on a project page and now it should be safe.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:54, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

I spent quite a long time yesterday and the day before adding Category:Opera templates to all the horizontal navboxes. Before, it was very difficult to find them all. Per your suggestion, Gerda, I've also fixed the project page to show more apt examples of each type of navbox in situ. As for your second point, one could just as easily say that a bottom navbox is not needed when side navbox is there, and several members do feel that way. At the moment there is no clear consensus either way. Hence, I'm leaving that out. Attitudes seem to be gradually and (in most cases) peacefully shifting amongst the editors here. However, I am not in favour of forcing this issue. The world is not going to come to an end if we have a fairly lengthy period of transition when not all opera articles will look exactly the same. Voceditenore (talk) 06:45, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Category:Opera world premieres at the Royal Opera House

I am uneasy about this category, since the Theatre Royal at Covent Garden only became the Royal Opera House in 1892. As a consequence we have, e.g. Artaxerxes (opera) categorized as premiered at the ROH, which is misleading to say the least. I suggest a new category '...premieres at the Theatre Royal, Covent Garden' for operas premiered there before 1892....opinions?--Smerus (talk) 06:41, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

You'd need a clarification note at the top of the two category pages, Smerus. On the other hand (I always have several hands), all those categories are potentially misleading and requiring better documentation. Plus, splitting them will lead to very small categories. For example Cesare e Cleopatra was certainly not premiered at what is now the Berlin State Opera. So a separate category for Königliches Opernhaus, Berlin? And what about Category:Opera world premieres at the Opéra-Comique? That company used several different physical theatres, each of which had several name changes in the course of its history. In fact, I'm wondering how useful Category:Operas by world premiere location really is, as opposed to a properly documented list format, e.g. List of works premiered at the Teatro Capranica (some of which are not operas). Voceditenore (talk) 07:08, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes clarification at head of course. I am inclined to agree with the 'list(s) of...' suggestion, Vdt, but not sure if I can face the hassle of CfD.....The 'Opéra-Comique' situation could perhaps be dealt with by changing the cat name to Category:Opera world premieres by the Opéra-Comique. In fact, the generic problem resides in the loose interchangeability between premises name and company name.--Smerus (talk) 10:12, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Have now made two categories and allocated.--Smerus (talk) 20:54, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Operalia 2015

The Operalia 2015 contest was just held in London and the winners have been announced. The names of the winners need to be added to the contest page. SpiritedMichelle (talk) 03:32, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Ambroise Thomas

Since this rather came out of nowhere - was poking in the article today, thought I'd quickly check if bigger copies of any of the images were available, found a much bigger, higher-quality copy, and did the whole restoration in a few hours - I thought I'd put this here for the benefit of Thomas fans. =) Adam Cuerden 07:06, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

A beautiful restoration, Adam. Thank you! Voceditenore (talk) 11:08, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Verdi image project: Stage 2

Note: Verdi image project: Stage 1 is archived here. Voceditenore (talk) 09:46, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

The Verdi image project is going well, but I'm... kind of running out of Verdi, to be honest. I've done a fair number, and think that only Simon Boccanera, Falstaff, the Requiem are left to restore, if we ignore my Aida project.

It's time to look forwards. So, here's a list of the operas of Verdi, with ones I lack high-quality images for in bold. For the rest, I've noted the image, or, in the case of Aida, one of the five images. Aida got a little out of hand...

  1. Oberto, Conte di San Bonifacio (1839)
  2. Un giorno di regno (1840)
  3. Nabucco (1842)
  4. I Lombardi alla prima crociata (1843) File:Giuseppe Verdi, Lombardi alla prima crociata. Libretto, 1843 - Restoration.jpg
  5. Ernani (1844)
  6. I due Foscari (1844)
  7. Giovanna d'Arco (1845) File:Giuseppe Verdi, Giovanna d'Arco, Vocal Score - Restoration.jpg
  8. Alzira (1845)
  9. Attila (1846) File:Illustrated London News - Giuseppe Verdi's Attila at Her Majesty's Theatre, London.jpg
  10. Macbeth (1847) See below
  11. I masnadieri (1847) File:Costumes for Act I of Giuseppe Verdi's I masnadieri - Original.png (unrestored)
  12. Jérusalem (1847) One done, more to come
  13. Il corsaro (1848) I
  14. La battaglia di Legnano (1849)
  15. Luisa Miller (1849) Low-res.
  16. Stiffelio (1850) - Low-res available.
  17. Rigoletto (1851) File:Giuseppe Verdi, Rigoletto, Vocal score illustration by Roberto Focosi - Restoration.jpg
  18. Il trovatore (1853) - See below.
  19. La traviata (1853) File:Giuseppe Verdi, La traviata title page - Restoration.jpg
  20. Les vêpres siciliennes / I vespri siciliani (1855) (It would be nice to have one each, but...) http://gallica.bnf.fr/Search?ArianeWireIndex=index&lang=EN&q=Les+v%C3%AApres+siciliennes&p=1&f_typedoc=images Aside: The image use in these is terrible. So much misattribution. I will be tearing these apart.
  21. Simon Boccanegra (1857/1881) File:Giuseppe Verdi, Simon Boccanegra first edition libretto for the 1881 revision of the opera.jpg (unrestored)
  22. Aroldo (1857)
  23. Un ballo in maschera (1859) File:Giuseppe Verdi, Un Ballo in maschera, Vocal score frontispiece - restoration.jpg
  24. La forza del destino (1862) File:Alexandre Charles Lecocq - Giuseppe Verdi - La forza del destino.jpg
  25. Don Carlos (1867) http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/2710309 (low res) - Gallica has tons, from http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b84373641/f1.zoom.r=don%20carlo%20verdi.langEN to http://gallica.bnf.fr/Search?ArianeWireIndex=index&f_typedoc=images&q=don+carlos+verdi&lang=EN&n=15&p=2&pageNumber=2 - File:Giuseppe Barberis - Carlo Cornaglia - Giuseppe Verdi's Don Carlo at La Scala.jpg to start.
  26. Aida (1871) File:Set design by Philippe Chaperon for Act4 sc2 of Aida by Verdi 1871 Cairo.jpg
  27. Otello (1887) - Gallica has some stuff.
  28. Falstaff (1893) File:Ettore Tito -The Production of Verdi's Falstaff at Milan - Falstaff Concealed in the Buck-Basket in Ford's House original scan.png (unrestored)

Now, a number of these aren't particularly notable. But some of these are very notable. I don't think I'm going to make all of them, but if anyone can help me find images to fill in as many of the gaps... I haven't really gone through Gallica properly - http://gallica.bnf.fr/ - and that might just get us a lot of the missing images. I'll start doing that now. Adam Cuerden 09:06, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Oberto, Un giorno, Nabucco, Alzira

I can provide very early, likely first edition libretto title pages. None are very good, though, and I think most are under-sized to be featured pictures (I prefer things likely to reach featured picture status as they get the articles onto the main page of Misplaced Pages.)

Are these any use? Adam Cuerden 09:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Ernani

  1. http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/23072124?printThumbnails=no&action=jp2zoomout&imagesize=1200&jp2x=0&jp2y=459&jp2Res=0.25&rotation=0&n=3&op=j&bbx1=0&bby1=36&bbx2=82&bby2=130&zoomout.x=3&zoomout.y=14 Another in the Oberto/Giorno/Nabucco/Alzira mode.
  2. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b64021152.r=ernani+verdi.langEN There's two good costumes for an early Paris production. Any use?
  3. http://gallica.bnf.fr/Search?ArianeWireIndex=index&lang=EN&q=Hernani+hugo&x=0&y=0&p=1&f_typedoc=images are for the Hugo play, but one or more might do to illustrate?

Adam Cuerden 09:45, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I due Foscari

Is http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b84243019/f1.zoom.r=I%20due%20Foscari%20.langEN worth doing? It's that or a 1979 set design that seems to have been released into the public domain, but, while certainly not a bad set design ( http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b70019113/f1.zoom.r=I%20due%20Foscari%20.langEN ) is rather stylised and says little about the opera.

We have a libretto, as with the others (Oberto, etc) : http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/23072123?printThumbnails=no&action=jp2zoomout&imagesize=2400&jp2x=0&jp2y=420&jp2Res=0.5&rotation=0&n=5&op=j&bbx1=0&bby1=17&bbx2=84&bby2=113&zoomout.x=2&zoomout.y=8

If none of these are good enough, I may give up on this one. Adam Cuerden 09:38, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Macbeth

I can do any or all of these. What do you like best?

  1. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8438298s/f1.zoom.r=Macbeth%20Verdi.langEN is good.
  2. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8405667v/f1.zoom.r=Macbeth%20Verdi or http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8438297c/f1.zoom.r=Macbeth%20Verdi.langEN - (Same image, but one has more ink splatter, the other more bleedthrough)
  3. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7001077r.r=Macbeth+Verdi.langEN http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7001079k.r=Macbeth+Verdi.langEN and http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b70010785.r=Macbeth+Verdi.langEN might be good, but I'm not sure if set designs for a non-première have particularly high encyclopædic value. Maybe the second (Act III, Scene 6) for the artistry?

Please advise. Adam Cuerden 09:26, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


Jérusalem

We happily have a lot of options here, since it premièred in Paris, and the Bibliotheque Nationale de France is very good at image releases. I'll need help deciding. Bolded images are ones I consider likely.

  1. There's a couple images of Esther Eliza Julian van Gelder, the original Hélène. is okay, but I think is much better. We don't have an article on her, though, so far as I can tell. Should we?
  2. We also have images of Duprez, the original Gaston. I'd say was the best, but is close. We also have and , but those are just inferior versions of the first two.
  3. I have no idea who Flora Fabbri is. But we have an image of her. Moving on.
  4. Set design: We have one maquette for Act III: (I have no idea how to translate maquette). It is at http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b550073990.r=J%C3%A9rusalem+Verdi.langEN in a variety of angles. We could easily crop something quite nice out of one of them. The Bibliotheque Nation... BNF is quite good at releasing photos into public domain of things like this, so we can use it.


This gets us to the hard part: Press illustrations for the première. They're all pretty good, which makes selection hard, especially as they only cover Act III or IV, so there's a limited number we could reasonably use.

  • Act 3:
  1. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8402925m/f4.item.r=J%C3%A9rusalem%20Verdi - BADLY SCANNED VERSION ALREADY IN ARTICLE Another copy is at
  2. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8402925m/f3.zoom.r=J%C3%A9rusalem%20Verdi - With giant heads? Another copy at .
  3. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8438068z/f1.zoom.r=J%C3%A9rusalem%20Verdi.langEN - I'm identifying this one by the set design linked above.
  • Act 4:
  1. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b84380649/f1.zoom.r=J%C3%A9rusalem%20Verdi - I think this is a poster. Pretty obviously Act IV.

So, what does everyone think. If people want to help out a bit with touching up the article, we could probably get Jérusalem very well illustrated, but I'd like a start point. Adam Cuerden 10:32, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Luisa Miller

There are some costumes for an 1853 Paris production. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8454600r.r=Luisa+Miller+.langEN - These any use? There's also another libretto. http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/23072128?n=3&imagesize=1200&jp2Res=.25&printThumbnails=no Adam Cuerden 10:40, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Il trovatore

Here's my options:

That's about it for the Italian. However, Verdi made a French version, Le trouvère. And, unsurprisingly, the Bibliothique Nationale de France has lots on that. Although not nearly so much as you'd think for one of the bigger Verdi operas:

  1. Some lovely costume designs: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8454604d.r=Le+trouv%C3%A8re.langEN (Only one for a named character, though, unless I've missed some text on them)
  2. Some more costume designs, albeit mostly for choristers: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6401893c.r=Le+trouv%C3%A8re.langEN
  3. God knows: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8421013j.r=+trovatore+verdi.langEN
  4. And, rather randomly, some set designs from 1904. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8405784q.r=Le+trouv%C3%A8re.langEN

Any thoughts? Adam Cuerden 10:51, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I tread with care here, lest I be torn to pieces by frenzied Verdians, but I think the only important opera shown in bold on your list, above, is Nabucco, and I think your researches should focus on it. Top notch images for the others would, it hardly needs saying, be wonderful to have, but Nabucco would be my suggestion for top of your list. What you have found and polished so far for so many operas in the canon is truly magnificent. Tim riley talk 21:42, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

RIP Alan Curtis

Article of Alan Curtis (harpsichordist), discoverer of operas, might offer more, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:26, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Royal Opera Programme Offer

My name is Rachel Beaumont and I work at the Royal Opera House. We are able to offer a small number of Royal Opera programmes from the 2014/15 Season free of charge to interested Wikipedians for research purposes, as part of our ongoing project with Wikimedia UK to help improve Misplaced Pages’s articles on opera and ballet. Royal Opera programmes include cast details, a production history and several essays by leading academics and commentators. Please see below a list of available titles.

If you are interested, please get in touch by email to rachel.beaumont at roh.org.uk with your address and which titles you would like.

We have a similar offer for Royal Ballet programmes – please see here for details.

Programmes available:

  • Andrea Chénier
  • Il barbiere di Siviglia
  • Un ballo in maschera
  • Król Roger
  • Orfeo
  • Rigoletto
  • Il turco in Italia

Rachel Beaumont (talk) 17:10, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rachel. Many thanks for this! I've moved your message here to the bottom where more members are likely to see it. Unlike message boards on other sites, it's the Wacky-Misplaced Pages-Way to put new comments last. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 17:05, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
Oops. Thanks Voceditenore! Rachel Beaumont (talk) 17:13, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be much more helpful to make these programmes available online, once a production has finished? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:35, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
In the UK, programmes tend to be much more elaborate, but also cost money. Making them freely available would cut that income stream. Adam Cuerden 05:37, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree. They're like books with beautiful illustrations and lengthy articles written specifically for the programme. If the contents were online, people would just copy-paste it into their websites (or their own opera programmes), regardless of any copyright notice on the material. Especially so since they're in English. Having said that, La Fenice still has many of their past "programmi di sala" online, and they're of similar quality, albeit in Italian e.g. La traviata. Voceditenore (talk) 06:25, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Teresa Parodi

Hi all, I just noticed that we have an article on modern singer Teresa Parodi. But none on the 19th century soprano of that name that warranted her own biography and was a rival of Jenny Lind in New York. She was very close to Giuditta Pasta and her husband. Anyone want to give it a go?4meter4 (talk) 00:21, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Interesting lady, 4meter4! I've started Teresa Parodi (soprano), placed suitable hatnotes on both articles, and will expand the soprano (so to speak) over the day. Voceditenore (talk) 07:00, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Wonderful! I've mostly finished with writing an article on the Max Maretzek Italian Opera Company. Articles on Max Strakosch and the Max Strakosch Italian Opera Company, the other company Parodi headlined, are on my to do list. Hopefully I can get to them before I'm out of wiki world again in mid August until who knows when. Best.4meter4 (talk) 16:12, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

List of opera companies

The contents of the List of opera companies was so utterly random, and so badly reflected the quoted criterion (six fully-staged productions a year) that it's hard to believe that anyone has really looked at this list in years. The fact that there are but 13 German companies and as many as 11 US companies listed says much. I've completely removed the table of individual entries, so the page now just directs readers to the List of opera companies in Asia, Australia, and Oceania, the List of opera companies in Europe etc. Scarabocchio (talk) 12:00, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Hermann Oswald

A tenor with a considerable discography is up for deletion.4meter4 (talk) 21:12, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Stub was just started today (not by me), will be expanded, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:35, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

August /September Composer of the Month

Since noone else did it, I've set these up. Adam Cuerden 11:58, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Let's get next month sorted. How about Auber for the composer? Adam Cuerden 02:32, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Auber is fine by me. I would like to follow my suggestion of operas based on Shakespear's The Taming of the Shrew. Martín y Soler's La capricciosa corretta has been recorded and has a Spanish language wikipedia article es:La capricciosa corretta. Likewise there are recordings of music from Ruperto Chapí's Las bravías. Both operas have multiple references available for view in google books. Philip Greeley Clapp's The Taming of the Shrew (Clapp) has an entry in the Dictionary of English Operas which is available for view in google books. I have access to reviews of performances of Vittorio Giannini's The Taming of the Shrew (Giannini) in The New York Times archives and there are several good references available in google books that are viewable. Dominick Argento's Christopher Sly (opera) has an entry in the Encyclopedia of American Opera which is available for view in google books. None of the other operas mentioned seem all that promising. On a side note the Met archives have no mention of John Kendrick Bangs' Katherine: A Travesty and I am wondering if the world premiere at the Met claim in The Taming of the Shrew article is in fact accurate. Best. 4meter4 (talk) 03:27, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Sounds good. I think we have enough for all of these save maybe the Katharine. So Auber as Composer of the Month, Taming of the Shrew adaptations as Operas of the Month?
I'd be inclined to skip Katherine - it's at best a ballad-opera, and is pretty heavily based on rewritten Gilbert and Sullivan. Offhand, https://archive.org/details/katharinetravest00bang We can see:
  • Opening song's tune is indeterminate. It's followed by the typical rhyming dialogue of 19th-century burlesque - the section from "To Padua I've always wished to come" is the start of the dialogue by my reckoning.
  • "Two little dudes from Pisa we" is "Three little maids from school" from The Mikado.
  • The Etiquette Song that follows some more dialogue is "If somebody there chanced to be" from Ruddigore. Barely changed in spirit at all, even if it is rewritten a bit
  • Another close paraphrase "For he's going to marry the shrew" is "For he's going to marry Yum-Yum" and "The threatened cloud has passed away" from the Mikado Act II Finale. (The songs appear in both Mikado Act Finales, but, offhand, it looks to fit the Act II better)
  • The Act II opener looks really familiar in its meter, but it's not entirely obvious.
  • "Oh the maids, the maids of Padua" (pg. 30) is another obscure one.
  • The Latin song, Arma virunque cano" (pg. 37) isn't obvious. Lyrics consist of random Latin thrown together, it could honestly fit anything.
  • "I am the very embodiment" is clearly "The law is the true embodiment" from Iolanthe.
  • The duet "My friend I tell you" mightbe a chopped up "Refrain audacious tar" from H.M.S. Pinafore, but I'm unsure, and there's likely a better fit.
  • "When he's married to the shrew" might be the opening from "Loudly let the trumpet bray" from Iolanthe, chopped up a little, but it seems a little off for that
  • Act III opening is a rather bad rewriting of "Fair is Rose" from Ruddigore.
  • "I've reached the sage conclusion" looks like it might be one of the patter songs.
  • "Extra, extra" is probably "Hail the bridegroom hail the bride" from Ruddigore, given it's immediately used in the same joke of people obnoxiously repeating the opening chorus at every mention of the right words. Though it needs a lot of massaging. in the later sections, so it might mix something else in. Which was common in these burlesques.
  • "As someday it may happen" is "As someday it may happen" from Mikado
  • "And now good night" is obscure.
Much of this is obvious, but we'd need actual cites. And, of course, it's possible not everything comes from G&S. But we already have six definite borrowings, out of fifteen songs, and a couple possibles. Could well be grabbing from other opera, of course, I mean, the "Tarantara" song might well come from some military song from Offenbach or Donizetti. The Latin song might be a school song. etc, etc. But I doubt one note of music is original. Adam Cuerden 06:25, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Auber as Composer of the Month for September and Taming of the Shrew adaptations as Operas of the Month sounds great to me. I'm off to deepest darkest Tuscany tomorrow and will be there for a month. I'll have some sort of (but not fab) internet access, and will check in here every once and and while. Happy summer to all. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 08:20, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Tailleferre chamber operas

Four of Tailleferre's chamber operas all premiered together in a cycle of operas written for radio entitled Du style galant au style méchant (including Le bel ambitieux, La fille d'opéra, Monsieur Petit Pois achète un château, La pauvre Eugénie) on December 28, 1955 in a performance by the Radiodiffusion-Télévision Française. Each opera in the cycle parodies a different operatic form or style. It's obvious these pieces were written to be performed together, and I think an article on the opera cycle itself with redirects from the opera titles to the opera cycle would be a better way to handle this topic. Please see this French language source for confirmation.4meter4 (talk) 15:17, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I just went ahead and decided to be bold and create an article on the cycle. I won't create redirects until others comment here.4meter4 (talk) 15:39, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
I think your solution is brilliant, 4meter4. OK back to the suitcases. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 15:42, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Verdi project update.

Since we're not showing completed images here any more, an update:

First of all, Depending on how you count it, Verdi had between about 26 and 29 distinct operas (Things like Stiffelio/Aroldo, I Lombardi/Jérusalem, and, at the other extreme, Les vêpres siciliennes and I vespri siciliani (why are these separate articles, anyway?) and Don Carlos/Don Carlo (not separate, which is probably wise).

When Don Carlos is featured tomorrow - pretty much a certainty at this point - we'll have ten new featured pictures of Verdi I restored during the project (encompassing nine operas: Rigoletto, Un ballo in maschera, I Lombardi, Giovanna d'Arco, La traviata, Aida x2, La forza del destino, Attila, and Don Carlos), two featured pictures I didn't work on (Otello and a repeat of Aida), and one image of Luisa Miller which was a good idea to do, but will never pass featured picture due to relatively small size. Update: an image of Jérusalem is now finished and up at FPC as well.

As my goal is to try, as best as I can, to get at least one new, high-quality image for each opera of Verdi - I don't think I'll succeed, but I may come close - I think this puts us past the one-third mark.

There are also 11 other opera images not by Verdi: Les Troyens x3, Carl Nielsen, Robinson Crusoé, L'èclair, Ariadne auf Naxos, Cherubini's Mèdèe, La favorite, Béatrice et Bénédict, and Ambroise Thomas. All are featured. I'm going to try to keep Verdi and other roughly balanced.

All the images can be seen at WP:VERDI Adam Cuerden 16:08, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Do not put images (or, at least, more than one image) next to tables of roles

This is a screenshot of a former revision of Simon Boccanegra, as seen on a narrow screen.

Revision 674335028 of Simon Boccanegra. You can confirm this effect yourself simply by going to the revision and changing the width. Some role tables of more extensively revised operas have four or five columns, and will do this very quickly.

The three images appear, right-aligned, before the table. This behaved similarly on the mobile version, but centred the images.

We can't do this. One image might be excusable, but the practice of shoving multiple images next to role tables really must be phased out. I've pulled them from this article onto the talk page for redistribution, but, seriously, this just doesn't work. Adam Cuerden 08:03, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Not necessarily. This screenshot shows that it can work. It depends on the browser. The official Misplaced Pages Mobile app showed an image on my phone similar to yours, but that app has many flaws (for a start, it doesn't show categories). The screenshot I linked to was taken on the same phone using Chrome in Desktop mode – perfectly satisfactory. The normal mobile app also rendered the table of recordings almost unreadable; should we drop those, too? I don't think we can constrain all Misplaced Pages pages to parameters suitable for 4" screens. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:41, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Okay, a point, but, still, I'd limit it to one or two pictures. Three is pushing it rather, particularly when they're collectively far taller than the table anyway. I don't think there's any situation where Negrini in the example will not be either entirely pushed down into the next section of the article or above the table. Adam Cuerden 11:23, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Albert Reiss

Albert Reiss, c. 1910

Don't think I'll be counting this towards my Verdi project - it was for someone else - but reckon the community may be interested. He was the creator of several roles in major operas, most notably probably Nick in La fanciulla del West, though that may just be my love of Puccini showing through. Adam Cuerden 02:20, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Featured now. Adam Cuerden 02:14, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Riki Turofsky

An article on soprano Riki Turofsky (sung with the New York City Opera and Houston Grand Opera among others) was recently created, but appears to be a copy paste job. She is notable with an entry in The Canadian Encyclopedia if anyone cares to attempt a re-write rescue. Best.4meter4 (talk) 00:07, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Which opera house?

Which opera house is depicted here? I'm tempted terribly by this image, but am also a little worried, given how the opera itself is a tiny part. Adam Cuerden 02:08, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

commons:Category:Costumes for the original production of Benvenuto Cellini by Paul Lormier

Documentation of something like this is not fun. Still, will be useful, methinks. Adam Cuerden 15:35, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Great addition and really nice work, Adam! --Robert.Allen (talk) 02:44, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
It was just one of those things where I saw them, thought about adding them to my list - then saw they were in the article in a form that was so much worse than we could now get, so I had to act. (This probably goes without saying, but, just in case: Obviously, these are better, but beyond the fact that Gallica ony started making images readily available at high-resolution fairly recently, I would never want to criticise uploading and using something just because something better was found later by someone. I would hope no-one would interpret my statement as such, but I just would like that to be clear. By the way, if anyone wants a guide to using Gallica, poke me. Lots of good stuff on it. Adam Cuerden 00:40, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Photos of opera singers

Way too many articles about prominent and important opera singers today have no photo of the subject. These articles include Dolora Zajick and Joyce DiDonato. This needs to be worked on. SpiritedMichelle (talk) 02:02, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

GA review for Auden

Good article reassessment for W. H. Auden

W. H. Auden has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. MusicAngels (talk) 18:28, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Santa Fe 2015

The list of operas performed at the Santa Fe Opera needs to be updated to include the 2015 season.SpiritedMichelle (talk) 04:58, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Infoboxes - Wagner operas.

Over recent weeks infoboxes have been added to nearly all of the Wagner operas. In many cases this was done by User:Gerda Arendt, who in the talk page of the opera wrote 'I suggest an infobox' and four days later simply added it. I have not noted any discussion in the talk pages, nor was the issue raised here or at WP:Wagner. In other cases editors have replaced the standard template with an infobox, without discussion on the talkpage or elsewhere. The consensus was reached, after a painful arbcom discussion, that there should be discussion of infoboxes before they are installed. In the present case it looks as if there has been a deliberate 'stealth' campaign to supply Wagner operas with infoboxes one by one, without raising the generic issue her or at WP:WAGNER. I have therefore reverted all to the Wagner operas template, pending discussion here or other appropriate locations. I am copying this to WP:WAGNER. For the record. I am against such infoboxes, which duplicate the information in the lead paragraphs.--Smerus (talk) 10:40, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

As you (all) may know, my restrictions were changed to being able to add an infobox when I first get consensus on the talk or there is no objection within 72 hours. I added infoboxes only to the last few of Wagner's stage works, while others had done it before me for the others. I like the consistency of all Verdi and all Wagner stage works having an infobox, and found appreciation by Courcelles. (Please don't expect me to reply five places.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:53, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Just to be clear, I do not raise this issue to discuss Gerda's restrictions but to raise the issue of infoboxes being applied in a campaign. Gerda's use of WP:ILIKE is not I think a sufficient argument for this. If editors wish to apply something wholesale in a category, it is only polite to raise the issue at the relevant Project page(s) first. Not all of us keep every Verdi and/or Wagner opera on our watchlists. Incidentally all these edits were carried out , one by one, between May and August.--Smerus (talk) 11:05, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
There was no wholesale. Individual editors tried to improve Misplaced Pages. AGF. - The arbitrators asked to discuss article by article, - not a great idea but the ruling. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Worm That Turned, is that right? - I argued in 2013 to include an infobox to Siegfried and others, and found no compelling reason not to have one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:31, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I have tried to make it clear, but do so once again, that my raising the issue here has nothing to do with the arbcom - it is about courtesy and proper discussion. Gerda made brief comments on each talkpage and then proceeded without awaiting response. The other editor(s) did not even raise the issue on the talkpage. As Gerda, at least, clearly intended/intends to move through all the remaining Wagner operas (she included the unfinished operas which noone was very likely to have on a watchlist), she might have notified us here. As she didn't, I am taking the opportunity to have a clear discussion. By the way, the other editor involved (Master and Margarite) is known to Gerda - she might at least have advised him/her of the requirement to raise infobox proposals on talk=pages.--Smerus (talk) 11:20, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

This is a philosophical difference. There are those that believe that "the article" is the focus of WP efforts, in which the infobox is redundant. I think this is probably the only Wikiproject that considers this point of view. From my eyes, it seems as if the rest of the WP community regards the infobox as an essential part of any article, even an article is one sentence long. Magnus Manske's Prep Bio tool (jump start the creation of any biography) includes the infobox as part of starting any biography. The Wikimedia Foundation has stated on more than one occasion that the infobox provides crucial semantic structure to the encyclopedia which will increase in importance. As an example, the infobox is a main starting point for search engines including Google. That we need to discuss this again shows (to me) how out of touch this project is with other aspects of Wikimedia. - kosboot (talk) 11:37, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Kosboot, it's not the project! It's the personal dislike of this one user and a few others. {{infobox opera}} has 147 transclusions, even after this mass revert, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:04, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Claryfying: the template was made available to be used in 2013, and an edit which I made in then - a bit prematurely, eaarning me the label "disruptive" (and I confess I was proud), - was restored recently. I would like to know who actually prefers the side navbox on Wagner's works - which duplicates the one at the bottom - to information relevant to the individual work, with an image relevant to that work. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:18, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Kosboot, your view is clearly mistaken. Infoboxes work for some articles and not others. Plenty of other projects agree with this one. Johnbod (talk) 17:27, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

I really wish some people would get over their enmity to infoboxes. Most Misplaced Pages readers aren't here to read a 40kb screed on Siegfried's funeral march, or the Liebestod, or how he came to write Parsifal. They'll look at the lede, a cursory swipe through the article, or egads...scan an infobox and then move on. If were not including an infobox, and bitching about it on spurious grounds like aesthetics, we're being exclusionists and elitists ignoring the needs of a wide swath of readers. We're providing content for readers, many who don't have the time to read 10,000 words or care to, and sadly most of them don't care about much more than acquiring a few facts. There are times I look at articles for a fact or two and dont care to read the rest (biographies mostly, but frequently artistic works, too). So get over it, an infobox might not be your thing, but they're here and they serve a big purpose. You have no substantive reason to oppose an infobox beyond a puerile insistence on WP:IDONTLIKEIT. JackTheVicar (talk) 12:49, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

They can read the start of the lead, which will contain the same information, often more accurately put, in a an appropriate form that does not shoehorn it into some general parameters. Johnbod (talk) 17:27, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

So, just to get the facts straight:

  1. Gerda makes a proposal on several, individual, article talk pages
  2. Having received zero objections, after a period stipulated by Arbcom, she adds an infobox to each of the articles
  3. Smerus mass-reverts all the additions, without any prior discussion
  4. Smerus accuses Gerda of "stealth"?

Right? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:11, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

On checking, I also note that this project's guidelines (the results of a well-attended RfC) say:

Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article.

I'll repeat the last part, for clarity:

at each individual article

So, unless my timeline above is in error, I can't quite see what Gerda is supposed to have done wrong, here. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:36, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree. While the infobox duplicates information included in the text, the template duplicates information that is in the navbox at the bottom of the article, essentially serving as a condensed navbox. Although having the template at the top of the article makes the navigation more accessible than in the navbox, it seems more useful to use that space to make key summarized information more accessible, as in an infobox. Rlendog (talk) 15:56, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I also agree that a 72 hour wait is enough to allow notice, and it appears that Gerda gave even a bit more time. I have about 5000 articles on my watchlist, and I am online at least once every 72 hours. If a particular article or category of articles matters that much to me, I would most certainly notice. Indeed, the ILIKEIT/IDONTIKEIT argument on infoboxes has gotten tedious. If the article is "yours" and you want to keep a certain style for that article, (for which I have some sympathy even if ownership is discouraged) that is one thing, but to suddenly object to group of changes weeks later is sort of the LOCALCONSENSUS situation that is being pretty actively being discouraged across many areas of wiki. (I just lost a round on name capitalization, so I know it stings to be on the losing end of a debate over something that may have seemed stable in a local project). So I think it is time to let this go on a project-wide basis and focus on the articles of strongest individual interest to the various users involved. Arbcom was clear: it's a case by case basis. For better or worse, that's the ruling. Montanabw 17:11, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
  • On the basis of the above comment, I would therefore suggest that, as a start, infoboxes are not appropriate for the articles Die Hochzeit, Die Laune des Verliebten and Männerlist größer als Frauenlist which by their nature (unfinished works) contain very little information. Infoboxes are out of proportion to the articles and all the relevant information is in the first sentences of the article. If you think that this comment should be posted in each of the articles, I am willing to do so. But if you feel these three could be resolved here (one way or the other), then that is also fine by me.--Smerus (talk) 20:51, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I'll play the admin here, on a drive-by basis, and treat this as an RfC: I see an overwhelming consensus for Gerda's infoboxing. Smerus, I think it would be a good idea for you to revert your removals of those boxes; if not, no doubt someone else will do it for you. If you want to meet folks here halfway and restore all but the three you mentioned, that would be a good start--and talk page discussion can take care of the rest. For the record, or the CD: I strongly dislike infoboxes, but there's consensus here. Drmies (talk) 22:41, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Reverted. Alakzi (talk) 11:05, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Pigsonthewing, Smerus conceded the point, quite graciously. You didn't set a timer, nor did I in my capacity as Overwhelmingly Important Drive-By Administrator. The more courteous you are, the easier all of this is going to be, now and in the future. I am sure that, if I go plowing through the ArbCom archives, I'll find something that talks about courtesy or collegiality or what not, and I am sure that as an admin I am allowed to sanction for breaches of standards of behavior. So, play nice please. Gerda, that hypothetical blush becomes you very well, though it's making me feel like I said something naughty. Alakzi, thank you: I assume this was not sanctionable, haha. Drmies (talk) 14:55, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Well I never . --Folantin (talk) 14:08, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

  • Yes, this whole thing is an all-too-typical QAI flashmob set up - One might have more respect for some of the opinions expressed above if any of the QAI editors concerned had ever been actually involved in WP Opera, or opera article creation or editing, apart from inserting infoboxes. (I except of course Gerda).--Smerus (talk) 14:31, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm not the only one who has long been intrigued by this very unusual "project". Almost the first thing you read on the main project page is a large clickable banner proclaiming "Welcome to Quality Article Improvement". Click on the link and it takes you to an obscure subsection of the Infobox ArbCom case talk page . Very odd. I've tried to avoid infobox debates for the past 18 months but I can't help noticing every time one has broken out on a page on my watchlist it's been initiated by a WP:QAIer.--Folantin (talk) 14:59, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
There seems to me to be an element of WP:WIKIHOUNDING involved here. I have certainly noted that my edits, wherever they touch on the issue of infoboxes, provoke responses, often acerbic, from one or more members of QAI. I rather fear also that this dissuades other editors from publicly expressing differing opinions to those propounded by QAI. It's interesting to compare this as a phenomenon with Twitter trolling and suchlike. It seems that WP as a system does not have any method of coping with this.--Smerus (talk) 17:49, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
We respectfully follow good examples such as "Tutto nel mondo è burla", --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:14, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Gerda, the use of the word 'good' in your apologia is, to put it mildly, not an example of WP:NPV. Viva-Verdi of course, bringing the article to FA status, did not, and did not need to, seek consent on its talk-page. Nor would I, or any responsible editor, in the circumstances, have sought to remove it. VV's 'example' did not extend to seeking to add infoboxes to other editors' articles, as QAI does. His practice cannot therefore be adduced in support of yours. Moreover, as you know, he is no longer able to comment on your example one way or another. I think you may need to find a more robust defence.--Smerus (talk) 19:20, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Tutto nel mondo è burla. If you check out inclusions of {{infobox opera}}, some of them on FA level, you will find only few initiated by QAI members. This one was, I asked for it. No defense needed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:44, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Facts

Methinks Gerda doth protest too much. When we look at the facts, some defence is certainly needed.

Let’s just recall the ArbCom decision of 30th November 2014, which banned Gerda from engaging in Infoboxes for six months – i.e. until end-May 2015. Now let’s look at the addition of infoboxes to Wagner opera articles by editor and date. Remembering also that until I flagged the issue up in WP:OPERA and WP:WAGNER, there had been no attempt by any of the editors involved in creating these boxes to notify other editors that such a campaign was underway. And noting by the way that the relationship between Meister und Margarita, Andy Mabbett and Gerda is evident from the former’s talkpages - in which Gerda - in the 10th May, and thus still under infobox interdict - thanks Meister for 'breaking the curse of the Ring' (what a giveaway! so Gerda was in fact actively encouraging others to add infoboxes whilst prohibited herself).

article edítor date
Die Feen Gerda 07/10
Das Liebesverbot Gerda 07/22
Rienzi Gerda 07/31
Der fliegende Holländer Alakzi 08/29
Tannhäuser Gerda 08/13
Lohengrin Meister und Margarita 04/28
Tristan und Isolde Alakzi 08/29
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg Gerda 07/11
Der Ring des Nibelungen Gerda 07/16
Das Rheingold Meister und Margarete 05/04
Die Walküre Meister und Margarete 05/09
Siegfried Meister und Margarete 05/02
Götterdämmerung Meister und Margarete 05/02
Parsifal Alakzi 08/29
Die Hochzeit Gerda 07/26
Die Laune des Verliebten Gerda 08/04
Männerlist größer als Frauenlist Gerda 08/09

So the sequence is follows: Meister begins to create infoboxes in April and May whilst Gerda is under interdict. In July, when Gerda is a month free from interdict, Gerda continues to create infoboxes, Whilst Meister creates no more. After the intervention of User:Drmies, the QAI member Alakzi finishes the job, with more enthusiasm than competence (e.g. telling readers that the conductor of Tristan was the cartoonist Vicco von Bülow – so much for quality and accuracy!)

This is scarcely a spontaneous uprising of music-oriented editors determined to have their beloved infoboxes. It is rather a concerted campaign by Gerda and those sympathising with her to encrust Misplaced Pages with cruft, when they could otherwise have been writing decent articles (as Gerda often does, and as I could be instead of rolling out this sad story). No wonder that editors are being driven from Misplaced Pages when subjected to the harassment of the QAI warriors. See my talkpage for a recent departure, and for the crocodile tears of Gerda at same. This is not a burla/joke - it is a consistent attempt at cultural enforcement which is irrespective of encyclopaedic value.--Smerus (talk) 14:16, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Your accusation of incompetence is misdirected; it wasn't me who added von Bülow to the infobox. Regardless, one simple mistake one incompetent does not make. Can I suggest that you tone down the rhetoric? Alakzi (talk) 14:21, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
My apologies - I see now that this was in fact an unusual error by Gerda after you created the box - but the aspersion as regards QA therefore remains. I had thought it was an argument for infoboxes that they gave concise correct information; all the greater responsibility for those preparing/editing them not to include nonsense. I have taken your advice, for which thanks, and toned down my rhetoric (slightly).--Smerus (talk) 14:46, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Smerus, no need to ping me: I am not a party to the infobox wars and am not in the least bit interested in the general aspects. This was a relatively small matter where a consensus agreed. For the bigger questions you need bigger people than me. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 14:58, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
    "Consensus" = this got swamped by an invasion from the WP:QAI tag team. Heh. Nice team work, guys. --Folantin (talk) 15:10, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
    It's that kind of asinine comment that makes a lot of Misplaced Pages editing so irritating. Drmies (talk) 15:16, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
    It's clearly "asinine" not to see some kind of overlap between the users in this discussion and the users here . Mention an infobox and before you can say Jack Rabbit they appear. But whatever, Eagle Eyes. Nothing gets past you. --Folantin (talk) 15:21, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
    It must come as a complete surprise that the people interested in infoboxes would be interested to comment here; just as the people who are interested in opera would be interested to comment here. Alakzi (talk) 18:30, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
WP:QAI is a clique not a project. It does not behave like a normal WP. It has no clearly defined goals, as demonstrated the vagueness of the name. It operates almost completely under the radar and hardly anyone is aware of its existence, except the chosen few. One of the reasons it exists is to provide mutual assistance to a small group of members, including bypassing sanctions - a remarkably high number of its core original membership have been sanctioned or outright banned (e.g. User:Br'er Rabbit).
But, no, from past experience I'm not surprised to see members of WP:QAI appear out of the blue on pages they've never edited before when one of them is in distress.--Folantin (talk) 19:35, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
The QAI people haven't commented here simply because they're part of QAI; they're part of QAI because they share some of the same ideas and values - one of them being that infoboxes are integral to the encyclopaedia. Why shouldn't they be allowed to voice their opinion "on pages they've never edited before"? Alakzi (talk) 20:23, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
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