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Xtremedood

Roscelese

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Roscelese

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Padenton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:45, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Roscelese (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Christianity_and_Sexuality#Roscelese_restricted : specifically "making rollback-type reverts that fail to provide an explanation for the revert" and failing to "discuss any content reversions on the pages's talk page"

2) Roscelese (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is subject to the following restrictions. She is:

• indefinitely restricted to making no more than one revert per page per day (except for indisputable vandalism and BLP violations), and is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page;
• indefinitely prohibited from making rollback-type reverts that fail to provide an explanation for the revert;
• indefinitely prohibited from engaging in conduct which, in the opinion of any uninvolved administrator, casts aspersions, or personalises disputes.

These restrictions may be appealed to the committee twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter. Should Roscelese breach any of these restrictions, she may be blocked for per the standard Enforcement provision below.

Passed 8 to 2 at 01:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 22:23, 3 May 2015 "Per disc. w/SY86, rv back to Amaury's version. EllieTea, since in the short time you've been editing you've shown repeatedly that you can't/won't accurately represent srcs w/o falsification or OR, I suggest you gain consensus for edits *before* making 'em" This reverted a week and a half's worth of contributions, over 70 edits total. There is no discussion with SY86 pertaining to this, on the talk page, or on either user's talk page. Even so, there was absolutely no attempt by Roscelese to explain the reasons for the mass revert, every explanation claimed there were previous explanations provided, yet previous explanations have been addressed and un-responded to.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

None that I'm aware of

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Not applicable. User is under restrictions from previous arbcom case above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Between April 26th and May 2nd, EllieTea made several good faith edits to False accusation of rape. While the bulk of the changes were fine, there were a few reverts by other users, including Roscelese, EvergreenFir, and SonicYouth86. After seeing these reverts, EllieTea made an effort to discuss them on the talk page: 1, 2 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13. Actually, every section in the current revision of has EllieTea attempting to explain and discuss his/her edits. Maybe a little overkill in the number of sections, but nothing too bad.

During this time, Roscelese's only responses to EllieTea were:

• EllieTea responded here:

• (more uncivil "blatantly nonsensical", "I am strongly inclined to revert all your edits wholesale, back to the version from a few days ago, unless a trustworthy editor confirms that they actually conform to sources") EllieTea responded here (showing sources and asking for an explanation):

• And so forth... Every section in the talk page goes on like that. With EllieTea providing sources, quotes, etc. while Roscelese and Sonicyouth generally ignored rebuttals and sources provided.

Finally, Roscelese reverted the page back over a week (with the first diff I listed above). At this time, the only explanation she provided was "Per disc. w/SY86, rv back to Amaury's version. EllieTea, since in the short time you've been editing you've shown repeatedly that you can't/won't accurately represent srcs w/o falsification or OR, I suggest you gain consensus for edits *before* making 'em" (in the edit summary), and on the talk page: "I've reverted back to Amaury's version from April 25. EllieTea's conduct in the article and on this talk page gives me little hope that their edits conform to WP:V and WP:NOR, as in the week they've been here, they've blatantly misrepresented sources numerous times. EllieTea, since you are unable to edit the article in accordance with policy, I suggest that you propose edits on the talk page, gain consensus, and let other users implement them if consensus is achieved." I was unable to find any such discussion, and even then I found Roscelese unilaterally reverting the entire article to a week before a bit extreme given all the attempts by EllieTea to discuss it. I reverted the change "Undid revision 660693403 by Roscelese (talk) WAY too large a revert. You owe it to EllieTea to go through and carefully revert the edits that are bad, not just flip the table. WP:REVERT" and left a response on the talk page Talk:False_accusation_of_rape#Revert. My revert was later undone by an editor who had never been involved in the discussion and did not get involved in any discussion (but from the Arbitration case, has a clear history of helping Roscelese). This discussion went on for a while between myself, Roscelese, Sonicyouth, and EllieTea. EllieTea and I repeatedly asked for Roscelese and Sonicyouth to explain what was wrong with the bulk of the edits, all requests for specifics were refused with WP:IDHT accusations and refusal to even link the section where it was discussed. ― Padenton|✉   21:52, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

While putting this together, a related ANI was opened, here: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Problems_with_User:Roscelese_and_User:Sonicyouth86 ― Padenton|✉   21:52, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Responses to discussion

• @Beyond My Ken: That is correct. I do not know much about other incidents involving Roscelese, but judging from User talk:Roscelese it seems like there may be more if someone is interested in looking into it. Regarding the second question, there was nothing for her in the Enforcement log for the arbcom case, so I don't believe so. ― Padenton|✉   22:51, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
• @EdJohnston: I would respectfully disagree that just because an edit summary was provided that the revert was properly explained. There is no explanation here as to what the problem was with the edits, and there were many good non-controversial edits that were reverted in this en masse rollback despite improving the article. All previous explanations had been addressed, and some of the changes by them were discarded. Yet these explanations do not apply to the revert in the diff above. I do agree this is not clear cut. ― Padenton|✉   20:25, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
• @Sonicyouth86: I do not and have never disputed that some of EllieTea's edits have issues, and that they were rightfully reverted. What we are discussing here is the revert en masse of all of EllieTea's changes to the article, with no discussion and no explanation. As for SPA and "Only a minuscule fraction of their edits are not about this topic." that is blatantly false. If we look at the analysis, only little over 1/3 of EllieTea's article namespace edits have been in articles remotely related to the topic of rape. ― Padenton|✉   20:25, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
• I see no presented evidence to support Sonicyouth86's ridiculous accusation that "it's no coincidence that Padenton and ElliTea, who support the same edits on talk:False accusations of rape, filed an AE and ANI report essentially at the same time, obviously in an effort to have Roscelese removed from the article so that they can have free reign." I give permission for a CheckUser to examine my email logs. The only email I received, related to this, was an email from a user un-involved in the dispute on 5/4 informing me of Roscelese's sanctions. This request is not out of malice intent towards Roscelese. As for the timing of this arbitration enforcement request, that is unfortunate, but I was too busy putting this together (and you can look at its initial length) to notice that an ANI was filed while I was working on it. However, I quickly mentioned and linked the other discussion both here and at ANI, which is easy to verify, so that point is moot. I would have gotten to opening an AE last week, but I have been busy with a lot of final projects and papers for university the past few weeks. ― Padenton|✉   20:50, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
• If any uninvolved admin feels I have acted wrongly in attempting to resolve this dispute on the talk page and eventually bringing it to Arbcom enforcement to discuss whether Roscelese's actions violate previous arbitration committee decisions, I will happily accept a warning (as suggested by Sonicyouth86) for my actions. ― Padenton|✉   20:25, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

• I categorically deny any involvement in canvassing (as accused by Roscelese "Check out their canvassing of another blocked SPA") as I have never edited Cubancigar's talk page. (misunderstanding, redacted 21:03, 9 May 2015 (UTC)) The only editors I notified of this discussion are those that saw my linking of it in the ANI, and those I linked above.(Roscelese herself as well, of course, as required) The supposition that because I asked Roscelese to provide more of an explanation for her en masse revert, that I am somehow in cahoots with EllieTea is absolutely ludicrous. I simply feel that EllieTea put in a lot of work, most of which improved the article, and should not have been reverted in its entirety, especially with no explanation provided, nor other attempts at dispute resolution. ― Padenton|✉   20:37, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

• @Sonicyouth86: I'll try to respond to all of these.

• Regarding SPA: You can't really count talk page discussions (nor this meta-discussion) as being part of the rape topic. That is why it's best to discuss article-namespace edits when discussing whether someone's an SPA. It is true, that many of the recent edits EllieTea has made in Article namespace are on these related articles, however, I do not agree that they are all problematic, and SPAs usually have much fewer edits, never reaching even 100. It is common, and understandable that editors may have a specific interest in a broad topic which leads them to direct their work to those topics. There are plenty of experienced editors that I have a lot of respect for that do so in articles related to rape.
• Regarding support of EllieTea's edits: As for my first comment in this dispute (where I said I had no problem with EllieTea's edits), it should be read as there being no significant policy issues with the edits as a whole, not that they are not up for discussion, and it was following a comment earlier that day by Roscelese threatening to revert EllieTea's edits wholesale. Try not to think of me as defending EllieTea's edits, I do not agree with every single one, some were rightfully reverted as they happened, others could use a few additional un-involved opinions (perhaps by RfC or DRN), but there were also a fair number of non-controversial edits which improved the article. My point has been that more explanation and more discussion on both parts would have been fair, and a mass-rollback such as what took place here is rarely called for, nor the solution.
• Regarding "no discussion": You are correct that there was discussion, from all parties (Except Binksternet), though incorrect that I have said that there was no discussion. What I have said is that the concerns were discussed and EllieTea attempted to address them, in some cases dropping the change and moving on to others. But for many of the changes, EllieTea made multiple attempts to bring them up for discussion, which he/she is allowed to do, though these attempts were ignored. And when the rollback came, no explanation was provided.
• Regarding timing: I'm not really sure how the end of the protection could have been the trigger for the ANI or AE, I haven't checked the time the protection ends, I've been busy all week. I forget who it was (I looked earlier) but the protection was requested by some random editor who hadn't been involved in any of this. ― Padenton|✉   22:09, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Roscelese

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Roscelese

I was just going to ignore the wall of text at ANI, but now that the same dispute has been dragged here for no apparent reason, I suppose I ought to leave a sentence or two. In brief: The offending user's refusal to acknowledge my explanations of why their edits violated policy repeatedly != my violating my sanction by not explaining my reverts. Moreover, "the source does not contain that statistic or anything approaching it" is not remotely personal, and "that editor is an SPA" is obvious from their edit history. Check out their canvassing of another blocked SPA, too: –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:22, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Questions for Padenton by Beyond My Ken

Please correct me if I am wrong, but what you are reporting is essentially a single incident between Roscelese and EllieTea, is that right? And the AN/I report you cite is about the same incident as well, not an additional incident, yes? Do you have evidence of any other incidents besides this one?

Also a general question to whomever can answer it: has Roscelese been warned or sanctioned for violating this restriction before? I see nothing in the Enforcement Log. BMK (talk) 22:40, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. BMK (talk) 22:58, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Sonicyouth86

As I stated at ANI, EllieTea (talk · contribs) is an obvious SPA whose editing is limited to the subject of (campus) rape and false rape accusations. Only a minuscule fraction of their edits are not about this topic. ET promotes the POV that “only a small percentage (of rape accusations) is known to be true”. Their edits demonstrate a clear bias which corresponds with their stated bias. All that Roscelese did was discuss those edits, explain how they violated WP:NOR and WP:NPOV, and revert some of those POV pushing edits together with other experienced editors like EvergreenFir and Binksternet. I think that it's no coincidence that Padenton and ElliTea, who support the same edits on talk:False accusations of rape, filed an AE and ANI report essentially at the same time, obviously in an effort to have Roscelese removed from the article so that they can have free reign. I listed some examples of EllieTea's misrepresentation of sources, edit warring, and POV pushing on the ANI noticeboard. Padenton has clearly been unhelpful in the topic area, claiming over and over again that I and Roscelese have been uncivil to EllieTea or accusing me of refusing to discuss, which is demonstrably false. I suggest a warning for Padenton and a topic ban for EllieTea who is obviously WP:NOTHERE. --SonicY (talk) 09:32, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

@Padenton: You keep trotting out this myth that EllieTea's edits were reverted "with no discussion and no explanation." Even a cursory glance at the talk page reveals that your statement couldn't be more incorrect.

As for the SPA thing, EllieTea made 222 article edits since registering their account in June 2009. More than half (134) of their article edits were made this year, and of those 134 edits almost 100 were about rape, campus rape, rape charges against an NFL player, false rape accusations. If we exclude the 13 edits to the Leila Araghian article and 6 edits of the article about a bridge designed by Araghian, all other non-rape related edits this year were minor like adding wikilinks , changing the date format , italicizing text , small copy edits . With the exception of one edit in 2013, all of their article talk page edits had to do with rape . So it's more than fair to say that the vast majority of EllieTea's edits and especially all of their substantial edits are limited to one topic area which is (false accusations of) rape.

You claim that you have never disputed that some of EllieTea's edits have issues. But you actually did say that you see no issue with EllieTeas edits to the article. Your contribution to the discussion was to a) post blanket approval of EllieTea's extremely problematic additions (see previous link), and b) defend EllieTea's misrepresentation of sources like here. You have actively enabled EllieTea's disruptive behavior and persistent original research. And here you are, requesting sanctions against an experienced editor whose only "mistake" was to engage with an SPA and explain over and over which edits were problematic and why. --SonicY (talk) 21:24, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

@Padenton: I didn't mean to imply that you received emails from EllieTea or that you coordinated your complaints against Roscelese off-wiki. What I meant to say was that you were the only other editor who supported the same POV and same content as EllieTea, and you defended even the most obvious misrepresentation of sources. So I regard it as no coincidence that you and EllieTea would request sanctions against Roscelese after the article protection expired and after I mentioned that I intended to take ElliTea and your behavior to ANI or AE. --SonicY (talk) 21:31, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

@Padenton: Short reply re your second and third point:

Yes, there were significant policy issues with the edits as a whole. You just basically repeated your blanket defense of EllieTea's problematic contributions. There were persistent OR and NPOV issues with the edits as a whole. Actually worse than OR, blatant misrepresentation of sources, misrepresentation that corresponds with EllieTea's stated POV.

EllieTea refused to follow the BRD cycle, restored their edits without consensus and while discussion was ongoing (e.g., ). Even when EllieTea participated in discussion they refused to listen on many occasions, simply repeating their original research even after it was conclusively demonstrated to them with long quotes from sources that their edits misrepresented the sources (e.g., discussion -> refusal to listen). --SonicY (talk) 22:33, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: this arb case doesn't allow the remedy of discretionary sanctions – the GamerGare ArbCom case does. I intended to request sanctions against EllieTea under the GamerGate discretionary sanctions and I made the mistake of mentioning it to Padenton, and he took it to AE first. The GamerGate discretionary sanctions apply to "any gender-related dispute and controversy" and probably cover the false accusation of rape page. Should I start a separate AE request? --SonicY (talk) 09:26, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

@Salvio giuliano: I see no evidence that Roscelese was aware that the GamerGate discretionary sanctions are in force for the false accusation of rape article. And I don't see how Roscelese could have possibly violated those terms by sticking to 1RR and by removing original research and POV. The editor who is aware because they received a DS alert and whose behavior has been problematic is EllieTea. --SonicY (talk) 09:59, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Statement by EllieTea

If I have understood this discussion, an important issue is whether Roscelese justified the mass revert of my edits. Roscelese did give an explanation for the mass revert, on the Talk page. That explanation states that my edits violate WP:VERIFY and WP:OR.

Consider the diff between before and after the mass revert. Roscelese should be able to specify some aspect of the diff that shows a violation of VERIFY and some aspect that shows a violation of OR.

I ask that Roscelese be required to specify such aspects.  EllieTea (talk) 21:13, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Statement by OccultZone

I agree with the suggestion of EdJohnston, however, I just believe that this kind of rule should be officially imposed on this article for everyone else. Restricting these few editors is likely going to introduce some trouble, there is clear possibility of having any other editor who would edit against consensus. We can solve that problem, by installing a editnotice on the article, Template:Editnotices/Page/False accusation of rape, and it should warn against making any major edits without consensus. Whoever would edit against consensus and refuse to self-revert might be reported here or to any admin who wants to keep a watch in this area. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Roscelese

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This complaint may be closed unless it identifies exactly where Roscelese broke the Arbcom restriction. The three parts of her restriction are:

• indefinitely restricted to making no more than one revert per page per day (except for indisputable vandalism and BLP violations), and is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page;
• indefinitely prohibited from making rollback-type reverts that fail to provide an explanation for the revert;
• indefinitely prohibited from engaging in conduct which, in the opinion of any uninvolved administrator, casts aspersions, or personalises disputes.

I don't see a complaint here that Roscelese broke the 1RR. And nobody has presented diffs showing Roscelese reverting with no edit summary. The only clause where you might have a case is the third one, about casting aspersions or personalizing disputes. What I can see is Roscelese using some harsh language, but there is intense disagreement about how to interpret some of the sources about false rape allegations. There is some indication that more than one party is descending into minute analysis of sources that may violate WP:NOR. Charges of misreading sources are not exactly aspersions if there is good-faith disagreement on how to interpret the sources. As yet, this does not add up to a clear case against Roscelese. EdJohnston (talk) 05:02, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

What we have here is a set of people who appear to be ineffective in finding consensus. In lieu of sanctions for this complaint, I think we should consider a period of full protection of False accusation of rape. That would require editors to reach consensus on the talk page before an admin would change the article through the {{Edit protected}} process. The alternative of topic banning all the people whose collaboration is deficient isn't available to us because this arb case doesn't allow the remedy of discretionary sanctions. The only person in the current complaint who can be sanctioned is User:Roscelese because she has a specific restriction. EdJohnston (talk) 02:44, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

If you want to use discretionary sanctions, you can invoke WP:ARBGG, which authorised DS for "any gender-related dispute or controversy" (see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate#Discretionary sanctions). Salvio 09:35, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Here are the pagelinks for the article:

• False accusation of rape (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Let's assume that WP:ARBGG is applicable and gives us the authority for page bans, I'd be tempted to close with warnings to all the people who reverted at False accusation of rape between April 26 and May 4. That group would include

• EllieTea
• Padenton
• Roscelese
• Binksternet and
• Sonicyouth86.

The warning would be a caution about their future editing at False accusation of rape. It would tell each person that they could be banned from the article and its talk page unless they showed by their further edits that they were making a reasonable effort to solve the disputed items and reach consensus. That effort could include RFCs, posts at WikiProjects, use of WP:DRN or any other recognized method of WP:Dispute resolution. Nobody would be allowed to make any edit that they have reason to believe lacks a talk page consensus unless it is routine text editing or uncontroversial maintenance. So, no bold edits. Of course, only those who choose to make further edits to the article would be risking anything, and the only parties to be warned at this time are those in the above list. I invite comment on this strategy from the parties, admins or anyone else. EdJohnston (talk) 05:14, 12 May 2015 (UTC)