Misplaced Pages

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Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

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Misplaced Pages as a part of the controversy

I'm not even going to try to hide what I'm talking about. There has recently been talk that, the longer the GamerGate page stays on Misplaced Pages, the more close Misplaced Pages gets to becoming a part of/source for the controversy. Has such a thing happened in the past, where Misplaced Pages gets dragged into a major controversy/heated issue/shitstorm? If not, do you have any idea on what might be done in future things with a heavily on-internet nature? --DSA510 Pls No H8 03:49, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

This is not a "major controversy". Most people haven't even heard of it. All I see is a lot of WP:SOAP. RGloucester — ☎ 03:56, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Something about images of Muhammad, perhaps. Or the FBI-seal. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:18, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes. See List of Misplaced Pages controversies for a partial list. However, I don't see the existance of a GamerGate article as being a major controversy. Certainly it has only had limited coverage so far. - Bilby (talk) 06:44, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Isn't our GamerGate article longer than our WaterGate article (I believe I read that in the news)? The problem isn't covering the controversy, it's that WP has taken a side and editors have taken sides while still trying to claim their side is NPOV. The opening sentence is the first clue as it's never written that way by mainstream outlets that are covering the controversy and not a part of it. --DHeyward (talk) 20:54, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd personally be interested to hear how you'd rewrite that first sentence, along with a full explanation of how mainstream outlets do write it and how your proposed version is a better fit to reliable sources.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:11, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Here's an ABC news Opinion piece: For some, GamerGate is about the "ethics of gaming journalism," about the alleged collusion between video game developers and video game journalists, and about the response of gaming journalists and websites to such accusations. For others, GamerGate is about the misogynistic culture of video games, a culture that exists both in the sexist portrayal of women in video games and in the violent threats that have been made against women who have criticized this culture.. I think that is fair opening sentence that doesn't diminish or relegate any particular view (I don't have a preference for which is listed first as long as it doesn't marginalize anyone) - and I would put it as past tense (not that my view means much). Game journalism sources are more difficult to find as they are reluctant to critically cover themselves (that's not unique, mainstream media does the same thing when they are part of the story). GamerGate is not one single thing and there are plenty of "outside of gaming" sources that place it as left vs. right, male vs. female, libertarian vs. social progressives, millenial vs. genx. Our first sentence (the last time I read it) was a definitive "GamerGate is" statement which if it were so clear cut it would have ended in about a week - gamers haven't been known to really care about portrayals of women in games and it's not like "Depression Quest" was about to put "Grand Theft Auto" out of business. Here's the "Reason" piece that mentions Misplaced Pages.. Here's a Vox piece by Ezra Klein on the real reason I think it exploded and continues . I think it stays alive because it provides a platform for various elements to keep talking about their own agendas which isn't even related much to games anymore but #GamerGate is a much more hip way to attract attention. Whether it's a feminist platform or whether it's a "journalists are leftists" platform, both are keeping the hashtag alive so they aren't drowned into irrelevancy. Gamers, historically, could care less about either and are caught in the middle. That case is made in mainstream media but is drowned in the voices that are platforming. Two other interesting pieces by Cathy Young --DHeyward (talk) 22:01, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

P.S. The pinnacle interpretation of the Blizzard CEO condemning harassment as coming down hard on GamerGate was followed by Then, at that same convention, Blizzard also announced a new game called Overwatch. One of the main characters in the team shooter game is named Widowmaker. She's a well-endowed assassin in a revealing, cleavage-emphasizing catsuit with a sexy French accent (and, of course, heels). Is this a problem? Only if you accept the false consumer choice that the entire industry can appeal to either the id of a male gamer audience or the progressive demands of feminists, but somehow not both. --DHeyward (talk) 22:26, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

That opinion article you cite above is a beautiful example of cherry-picking sentences while ignoring the context, because that opinion article goes on to completely reject GamerGate's claims to be about "ethics in journalism" and, in fact, argues that Thus, if the "ethics in gaming journalism" side of GamerGate wants objectivity in game reporting, then it is only through the efforts of the feminist side of debate that we have seen any real strides taken in that direction. In other words, Anita Sarkeesian and those who are similarly "printing what someone else does not want printed" about games, are not the enemy of "ethics in gaming journalism" - they are the best representatives of it. That is not an argument in support of the idea that GamerGate supporters care about ethics in journalism — rather, it is a direct repudiation of that idea.

Citing three pieces from the same libertarian house organ does not help demonstrate how "mainstream sources" view the issue. Rather, it's instructive to examine the front-page article in The New York Times on GamerGate, headlined thusly: Feminist Critics of Video Games Facing Threats in ‘GamerGate’ Campaign. This is not an outlier, rather a prime example of the mainstream coverage of the movement. Others: GamerGate: facing misogyny in the video game world from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, #GamerGate: the misogynist movement blighting the video games industry from The Telegraph, #Gamergate leads to death threats against women in the gaming industry from PBS NewsHour, etc. etc. etc.

The vast, vast majority of reliable sources covering the issue focus largely, if not exclusively, on the issues of harassment and misogyny that were brought to the fore and give the "but ethics" claims only the most dismissive of mentions — usually discussing them as "purported," "ostensible" and otherwise pointing out that the movement never actually raised real ethics issues. Reliable sources, in general, adhere to the POV that "ethics" was a smokescreen for misogynistic harassment. Our article must reflect that that POV is predominant. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The day Gawker Media becomes a widely used RS is the day I know Misplaced Pages is dead. And, the narrative is failing. The media witch hunts are being questioned. Even now, the chairman of the IGDA Puerto Rico is being thrown under the bus for calling out anti-gg. So let me ask you, how's the smokescreen going for the cronyism in journalism and the gaming industry? I'm not pro-gg, I just didn't drink the Kool-aid™. --DSA510 Pls No H8 09:20, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Literally none of those links are to Gawker, so I have no idea what you're even talking about here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:12, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

20k diverse set of people harassing women for 3+ months for no benefits, or journalism becoming more and more corrupt? I've been doxxed, my life potentially in danger for trying to question the narrative, by anti-gg. I find it harder and harder to stay neutral. And, in what magical way can Gawker Media, a network of awful blog sites/e-tabloids, be defended? --DSA510 Pls No H8 09:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

And as usual, the sources provided do not do any research, because it might break the narrative. --DSA510 Pls No H8 09:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Being doxxed is bad, and it seems it happened to Fine Young Capitalists, along with death threats and DDOS. I'm not sure of the exact timeline, but it does somewhat give the lie to unambiguous readings of the situation as GG bad, anti-GG good. There are also facts which are widely known and not in dispute, but (possibly) not attributable to RS, that urge us to tread carefully. I would urge people to consider that the journalists who are reporting on this are basing their stories, by and large, on the type of sources we do not generally use (and with good reason), and drawing conclusions that we would not permit ourselves to draw.

I am even more concerned at the damage that this dispute is causing to the fabric of the community. Numerous instances of bitey behaviour have occurred, ramparts are thrown up and wording which would be summarily made neutral in any other circumstance is defended to the death.

The concept that "#GamerGate is not something Wikpedia covers at present" is not totally abhorrent to me, given the relatively minor nature of the dispute IRL (in real life), and the difficulty of covering an issue bearing where one side claims journalists are unethical, and for which the only RS are journalists.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:42, 22 November 2014 (UTC).

I think there is much reason to be skeptical about this controversy. It all began at a one-day filming session for "GAME JAM", a TV reality show in which people reportedly tried to deliberately stoke controversy, such as asking Zoe Quinn 'sexist' questions. I have seen no core philosophical innovation here by any party on any side, rather what smells like PR and social media maneuvering with obvious careerist motivations, whether to tear others down or build oneself up. Whether this is all some new sort of reality show filmed "in the wild" of the internet, or one that has escaped and gone feral, in no case is it worth Misplaced Pages getting polarized by these ever-shifting and ill-defined disputes. What we are challenged to do is to see that our own policies fairly and effectively. Wnt (talk) 17:47, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

There are many stories where Misplaced Pages is front and center - however the gamergate controversy is not one of them. Misplaced Pages has only been mentioned tangentially in any coverage of gamergate - and its likely to stay that way unless the gamergaters turn their harassment campaigns against Wikipedians and wikipedians report them. the view of Misplaced Pages's involvement/importance in the issue is probably coming from the perspective of someone too deeply personally ensconced in the bubble in both aspects. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:56, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

@NBSB I was asked for an opening sentence. "GamerGate is X" is simply wrong. Take the PBS case by NBSB: opening sentenct is Members of the gaming community launched a campaign in August called Gamergate as a response to allegations of unethical journalism. But it has grown to include outright threats against women who work in or critique the industry. That's not much different than the ABC opinion piece. It is not defined by only one side which is why it lives. Certainly all aspects should be covered including misogyny and harassment. It should cover journalism. It should cover consumerism, etc, etc. It should cover comparisons to other issues involving games such as mass shootings (and why that angle to gaming culture died down relatively quickly after real people died vs. hanging on despite in GamerGate). I think it's also clear that it is now a platform from which to speak as opposed to simply a dispute that even involves gamers. Also, I cited three different sources; Reason, ABC and Vox. It was my opinion so I am not sure what you are arguing against. Are you claiming it's not my opinion or trying to marginalize it? Non-gaming pieces normally present both aspects either as a statement or a chronology. If you read the opinion piece through an objective lens, it refutes nothing about GamerGate and provides different aspects of it. Article titles are notoriously bad to use or cite as they are generally written by someone other than the author if the piece. It's the reason an AP story can have the same article but multiple headlines depending on what the local editors want to say. Headlines should never be used. The fact my statement has brought the dispute here is exactly why it's a problem at the article. I've not added any content to the article precisely because it's too toxic and too engulfed in the politics of the editors and players. --DHeyward (talk) 18:18, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Also, take a look at the NYT piece you cite which is an article about threats. Read the article until you get past just the threats to where they describe GamerGate The instigators of the (harassment) campaign are allied with a broader movement that has rallied around the Twitter hashtag #GamerGate, a term adopted by those who see ethical problems among game journalists and political correctness in their coverage. The more extreme threats, though, seem to be the work of a much smaller faction and aimed at women. And that's from the NYT. They never make the claim that Gamergate is defined by the harassment. We SYNTH that they do, just as you did. Just review the NYT piece for where they mention GG and what they say. --DHeyward (talk) 20:05, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Full protection of GamerGate

If you didn't notice it Jimbo, the Gamergate controversy has been fully protected for 7 days by User:Gamaliel (which I actually don't disagree much but is kind of iffy) and then User:Nyttend then extended this for 5 months. Literally, 5 months of full protection. Because of edit warring. This is unprecedented and is in bad form and should be reverted back to the 7 days or unprotected all together. Nyttend's response to this is located here, basically saying that every time the page is protected, there's problem editing. Yeah, that justifies it. Tutelary (talk) 18:10, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Unprecedented? Please look at the protection log; I only restored what was already there. It could also be protected for rampant misuse of primary sources — secondary sources can't yet exist, since the controversy is ongoing, so sources produced after the event won't be able to exist until months or years in the future from now. Nyttend (talk) 18:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this is unprecedented. I have never seen a page fully protected for this long just because it has 'editing problems'. Guess what. Editing problems are supposed to be dealt with on the talk page and via editing to hopefully have a compromise for certain things. That works. Looking at the logs, there is not a single entry there that details full protection of April 2015 of editing (there was a few for moving), but not for editing. That's simply too long of a time and the reasoning for it is just weak. Pages are supposed to be improved, not stagnated because of obvious problems. Sorry for any editing conflicts relating to this addendum, but even if there was another administrator that protected for that long, I think that they would've made a big mistake too and still be in bad form. Just because another administrator does it doesn't suddenly make it alright. Each situation has its own special circumstances> Tutelary (talk) 18:24, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I partly agree and partly disagree that editing problems should be dealt with on the talk page. In the case of this article, editing problems should be dealt with by using the community general sanctions. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:58, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

The only time the article was full-protected for longer than a few weeks was an instance when Cuchullain protected the page until September 2015, but then immediately shortened it to a week. Semi-protection has been imposed a few times with an expiration date in April 2015, but never full-protection.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:23, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I have a question. What are those who are complaining about the very long full protection of the article asking User:Jimbo Wales or the WMF to do? Are they just using this talk page to vent, or are they asking Jimbo or the WMF to do something? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:56, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Often, people bring issues here because it's a way to keep me informed and to seek my advice. One of the reasons I tend to say that coming here is not forum shopping is that no specific requests are usually made, and no specific actions result. But I do think this can be a valuable place to advance the conversation. And of course, it is not impossible that an intervention by me or the WMF could be appropriate - not in this situation but in some situations.

In terms of the specific question, I think it pretty obvious that 5 months is much much too long. The article is not perfect - indeed it is not very good in many respects. There are legitimate questions from legitimate Wikipedians about whether the article does a good enough job accurately reporting on the full range of reliable sources, as opposed to tending to cherry pick one side. That's a conversation that needs to happen, and that's some editing that needs doing in order to reach consensus.

At the same time, emotions have flared. We've had the editor with the most edits to the article doxxed, and we've had that same editor take money from people on a message board on one side of the issue. That's a mess no matter how you look at it. I think that a 7 day break is wise, particularly if used in good faith by the dominant players on both sides to try to hear out the opposition and reach some useful compromises.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:36, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, most discussions that are engaging are hatted. It is rather difficult to discuss anything when stating facts like "journalist Grayson had a relationship with an indie game developer Quinn" is redacted as a BLP violation on the talk page even though it's acknowledged and discussed by Grayson and his employer. The threat of topic bans (and implementation) is quite decidedly in one direction. Heck, a week ago, I added the COI issue to Gamaliel's hat note about becoming part of the controversy. but Gamaliel decided that off-wiki behavior was ok . This was before the money issue I believe. --DHeyward (talk) 03:59, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

What Can Be Done?

I have a suggestion for what Jimbo Wales can do. He can state that, without having studied the details of the page, extended full page protection for a period of months is undesirable, and is in general contrary to the policy that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and, in particular, that when community general sanctions or ArbCom discretionary sanctions have already been authorized, the use of sanctions is normally a less drastic and more appropriate response to disruptive editing than page protection for months. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:43, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Christina Hoff Sommers' Misplaced Pages Page

She doesn't seem to be too happy about it. per this. --DSA510 Pls No H8 00:50, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

There's been a report made at WP:BLPN, the article was locked after a sentence or two were removed. It's not my area, but after a quick reading, nothing jumps out at me. Perhaps there are some subtlties that I don't understand, but I don't see a crisis now. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 01:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

• She's a prominent MRA author, I'm fairly familiar with her work. Looking at her article I don't really see anything that sticks out as unfair, majorly misrepresented, or a major omission. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:49, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

• Do you have a reliable source identifying her as an MRA?--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:16, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

• You mean like ? A much more fitting description would be anti-feminist per , , , , , , , , and many other RS. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 19:16, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll dig it up later if need be. It's on my bookshelf of MR related books, and I don't particularly remember who the author of it was, but distinctly remember someone writing in an academic press describing her as a men's rights authow, and arguing that that's different than an MRA would be silly semantics. She self identifies as a pro-equity feminist. More sources will qualify her as an antifeminist than an MRA. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:45, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

• That one source likens her arguments to those made by men's rights theorists, which is far from enough. Labeling her an MRA is potentially a BLP offense given that some view MRAs as ebil women-hating sociopaths (I presume Sommers would thus have what those people call internalized misogyny).--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:22, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

• There are enough sources for her involvement with the MRM but there are obviously many more sources for her antifeminism. I gave you just one example using a freely available online source (unlike Boys, literacies, and schooling: the dangerous territories of gender-based literacy reform (2002), Open University Press, p. 32, for instance) but, fine, let's call her antifeminist instead of MRA. Your equation of internalized misogyny with "bullshit" and your theories about "those people" (Scholars? Germans? Beelzebub and his minions?) make no sense. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 18:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The only page describing her as an MRA is that page on ED which mentions her. Now I don't know about you, but sourcing ED isn't the best way to uphold WP:BLP. --DSA510 Pls No H8 21:15, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

If you only use freely available online sources to write an encyclopedia, you're doing it wrong. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:45, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I removed one further sentence (which actually appeared twice!) that appeared to be poorly sourced for a claim that she'd probably take issue with, and given that a couple of people before me on the talk page had apparently thought the sentence should go. I'm not willing to do anything more in the absence of consensus on the talk page - unless, perhaps, Dr. Sommers lets us know exactly what issues she has. At the moment, the article seems reasonably balanced and objective. She's a prominent and very controversial figure, so it's a potentially sensitive article. Metamagician3000 (talk) 02:14, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for removing that sentence. I do think that the article has other problems; there is more material that is sourced in a questionable way (there has been talk page discussion of this) or is simply confusing. ImprovingWiki (talk) 03:48, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

The overall negative "anti-feminist" tone is a problem for one. She coined the term "equity feminist" which is associated with "libertarian feminists." After GG, editors have made her biography largely negative. That editors would actually argue she is not a feminist or even "feminist scholar" is simply ludicrous. Her next video will be interesting. --DHeyward (talk) 03:52, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing necessarily "negative" about not identifying someone as a feminist. I thought the article was if not perfect then at least reasonably balanced before you started editing it. As for Sommers's next video, it remains to be seen will even mention her Misplaced Pages article. ImprovingWiki (talk) 03:55, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Characterizing her as "anti-feminist" in that same line is though. It's not neutral. It's negative in tone. I doubt anyone that identifies as a defender of women's rights and democrat would appreciate the tone and style of the current article, nor agree with it's characterizations. Everything positive is rebutted and a lot of the negative is opinion. --DHeyward (talk) 04:11, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Please reread NPOV. If someone has been widely described as anti-feminist (and Sommers certainly has been,) then it is not non-neutral to describe her as such. We use NPOV, not SPOV. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:53, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

It's irrelevant whether or not any individual "appreciates" a WP article about them; this isn't People magazine. WP articles are not intended to be promo puff pieces. If the CSH article is well-sourced and not violating BLP policy, it's fine. It's also irrelevant which political party she claims membership in; anyone in the U.S. is free to join any political party they wish regardless of how many, or which, of that party's standard platform planks they agree with. ReynTime (talk) 00:57, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

But she is not "anti-feminist" or an "MRA". Both are slurs that don't represent the majority opinion of her work. She's definitely a feminist scholar and her work has been cited by quite a few (> 700) other scholarly works. That people disagree with her is not a reason to label her as the opposite of what she is. --DHeyward (talk) 01:21, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

There's nothing currently on her page calling her an MRA and the anti-feminist charge is properly sourced, so I don't see the issue. Again, this isn't People magazine -- WP doesn't allow public figures to define themselves here which is why there's a constant battle to keep politicians from having their PR folks edit their WP articles. While CSH's views on her body of work and her personal definitions are entitled to due representation, she is not entitled to have those views be her sole representation here. You need better arguments than "She doesn't call herself that!" and "A Democrat can't be antifeminist!" if you're going to make your case that she is being misrepresented.ReynTime (talk) 04:27, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Nice straw argument but it's not about anything you just created. She is certainly critical of certain avenues of feminism that exist predominantly in academia, but doesn't rise to "anti-feminism." It's certainly not a mainstream view and most likely a fringe view. In any case, it's not even close to her identity with equity feminism, which is a term and concept she coined and has been joined by a number of feminists. The opening paragraph is pathetic in its attempt to portray "anti-feminism" yet not even acknowledge she is a feminist scholar. Her work that defined equity feminist for others to follow and expand is cited over 700 times according to google scholar. Our article on equity feminist is more balanced than the bio of its creator. The recent attack is straight from gamergate which is why it's personal rather than intellectual. --DHeyward (talk) 05:51, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The anti-feminist label is sourced. If CHS objects to the label she should write to the sources and see if she can get them to retract it. If an RS says a certain author is anti-feminist, then WP can report that. It's not the job of WP editors to decide which criticisms from reliable sources are justified and which aren't, as WP editors don't have the background to make that determination. This is why WP relies on reliable sources and not on the opinions of editors. Wp doesn't "correct" reliable sources just because an editor -- or a subject -- doesn't like what that source said. ReynTime (talk) 06:05, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

You should probably not edit biographies if you believe a source is all that is needed to make an opening sentence, negative claim about someone. Yes it is our job to separate the wheat from the chaff and not pretend it's someone else's problem. There are plenty of sources that claim President Obama was born in Kenya but we don't list them in his opening sentence. Please read the policies that say why we don't do this. --DHeyward (talk) 06:41, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

There is a reason WP has a policy on what does and does not constitute a reliable source, which is why Breitbart.com isn't sourceable. Reliable sources make an effort to back up their claims, do not knowingly print falsehoods, and publish retractions when they are caught in an error. No reliable sources claim, nor have ever claimed, that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. Please review the definition of reliable source so that you can differentiate between a reliable source and one that is not reliable. I think it will relieve your concerns that WP might accidentally state that Obama was born in Kenya. If you wish to contend that the sources that say CHS are anti-feminist are in error or not reliable, that argument should be made on the talk page of that article. I'm not sure why you are pursuing it here. ReynTime (talk) 06:54, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The reliable sources are 2 book authors that disagree with her. 700+ scholarly articles cite her. Our article list a number of prominent (i.e. have their own wiki bio like Wendy McNichols). There are many reliable sources that say many things that don't necessarily warrant having that viewpoint in the lead. There is no doubt that she is a feminist scholar and there is no doubt that calling her "anti-feminist" is polemic and self-serving. It's not a mainstream view. This is how biographies become hit pieces. There are plenty of polemic rants about Gloria Steinem that don't belong in her bio and certainly not in the lead. The same understanding is applied to CHS. You don't seem to understand WP:UNDUE. It's fundamental to BLPs. --DHeyward (talk) 16:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Meh. It takes about 3 seconds to find reliable sources describing Hoff Sommers as "anti-feminist". Here is a news piece from the Washington Post which describes her as an "anti-feminist provocateur", for instance. So it's not "two book authors that disagree with her", right? I think the discussion would probably benefit from less chest-beating and more attention to sources. MastCell  17:09, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Curiously enough, "opinion blogs" ("Alyssa Rosenberg blogs about pop culture for The Washington Post's Opinions section.")are generally about "opinions" and are not sources for statements of fact. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:49, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Sigh. Of course, the term "anti-feminist provocateur" entails some level of opinion and is not a "fact". The point is that this view of Sommers—while opinionated—is prominent in reliable sources, and thus probably warrants mention (with proper attribution) in the article. MastCell  18:06, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

It can probably be sourced reliably that some or many of her opponents regard her as "anti-feminist" or "an anti-feminist". But it's also the case that this more a matter of polemics and cultural disputation than of scholarly classification. Anyway, the current pieces referenced in the lede, when you look at them, are not high-quality reliable sources such as we'd expect for biographies of living persons. The first appears to be a highly-opinionated activist publication. The second looks more scholarly, but it seems to have been published by a vanity press, and in any event the only relevant statement in the entire article refers to one of her books as a well-known anti-feminist publication. That's somewhat different from what the reference is currently cited for. I think someone editing the lede to meet BLP concerns could quite correctly remove the offending words in their current form, and under BLP the onus would be on someone wanting to put them back to find better references. Again, I'm not denying that the article should ultimately say somewhere that she and/or her books have been labeled by (some) opponents as anti-feminist, but I'm not at all sure this claim belongs in the lede, or that it belongs anywhere in the article until such a time as better references are included to support it. (These are just some observations that the current editors might want to take into account, if they seem to have some merit, once the article is unprotected. Meanwhile, perhaps it's best to shift this discussion to its talk page where editors might be able to see if they can reach any consensus. Jimbo is probably as apprised as he needs to be.) Metamagician3000 (talk) 08:09, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

There does seem to have been some attempt to make the page more negative in recent times, but I could be wrong about that. If it's the case, it's probably not easy to fix. I gather from a tweet I saw that Dr. Sommers objects (at least in part) to earlier removal of material that she considered positive and accurate. I don't want to get closely involved in the debate over this particular page, but I hope she'll somehow offer more information about exactly what changes she sees as problematic. Metamagician3000 (talk) 07:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Copyright violation - image

This is User:Russavia. Inline with C:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Christina Hoff Sommers.jpg, the image in numerous articles, include the subject's and Gamergate, is almost definitely a copyright violation. Both articles are semi-protected so I am unable to use an IP to remove it (and won't use my sleeper account to do it), so could I ask someone to remove the image from the relevant pages here on en.wp; it doesn't look good to have a copyright violation on articles, especially when they are receiving extra eyes. TBH, I thought someone would have caught that already but meh. 82.140.181.151 (talk) 06:05, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Need to improve the article of Macedonia naming dispute

We Need to improve the article of Macedonia naming dispute: The inherent right of a state to have a name can be derived from the necessity that a juridical personality must have a legal identity. In absence of such an identity, the juridical person, such as a state, could to a large extent (or even completely) loose its capacity to interact with other such juridical persons (e.g. conclude agreements, etc.) and independently enter into and conduct its external relations. The name of a state is, thus, an essential element of its juridical personality and, consequently, of its statehood. The principles of sovereign equality of states and the inviolability of their juridical personality , lead to the conclusion that the choice by a state of its own name is a basic, inherent right of the state. This right is not alienable, divisible or transferable, and is a part of the right to 'self-determination' (determination of one's own legal identity), i.e. it belongs to the domain of jus cogens norms. External interference with this basic right is inadmissible. It is also obvious that if such an external interference with the choice of the name of a state would be allowed, even through a negotiation process, it might easily become a legally endorsed mechanism for interference in the internal and external affairs of that state, i.e. a mechanism for degradation of its political independence. From these reasons, the choice by the state of its own name must be considered as an inherent right of the state that belongs stricto sensu to the domain of its domestic jurisdiction. In exercising this right, the states have, therefore, a complete legal freedom. This freedom may in practice be constrained only by considerations of avoidance the overlap of legal identities of two (or more) international juridical persons. (The province 'Macedonia' in Greece, however, is not an international juridical person.) Based on the principle of separability of domestic and international jurisdiction, the name of a state, which is subject of that state's domestic jurisdiction, does not create international legal rights for that state, nor does it impose legal obligations on other states. Clearly, the name per se does not have a direct impact on the territorial rights of states. Therefore, the earlier mentioned Greek allegation that the name of the applicant implies "territorial claims" has no legal significance. The Arbitration Commission of European Communities on former Yugoslavia also took this position and did not link the name of the country (Republic of Macedonia) to the Greek territorial rights. The same view is shared by prominent scholars of international law. Interference with matters that are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of a state, such as the choice of state's name, is also incompatible with the UN Charter. Article 2 (7) of the Charter explicitly extends the validity of this legal norm to the United Nations themselves. It appears, therefore, that neither the Greek opposition to the admission of Macedonia to UN membership under its constitutional name, nor the intervention of the UN Security Council in the matters related to the name of the country, are consistent with the Charter. According to the interpretation of Article 4(1) of the Charter given in 1948 and accepted by the General Assembly, the conditions laid down in that article are exhaustive (and "not merely stated by way of guidance or example" ), they must be fulfilled before admission is effected, and, once they are recognized as having been fulfilled by the Security Council, the applicant state acquires an unconditional right to UN membership. This right is enshrined in Article 4 itself and comports with the universal character of the UN Organization. At the same time, and for the same reasons, the Organization has a duty to unconditionally admit such a state to UN membership. The Security Council in the preamble of its resolution recognizes that the applicant state fulfils the required criteria for admission and yet, contrary to the accepted interpretation of Article 4(1) of the Charter, recommends that the applicant be admitted to membership with a temporary reference label (to be used for all purposes within the UN), and imposes an obligation on the future UN member to negotiate with a neighboring state about its own name. The fact that Security Council has ignored the strong objection of Macedonian Government to such formulation of its resolution indicates that it considered the added conditions as necessary for giving the recommendation. A specific feature of the additional conditions imposed on Macedonia for its admission to UN membership is that their effect begins with the act of admission. Their nature is quite different than that of the conditions laid down in Article 4(1) of the Charter: they need to be fulfilled not before the admission, but after it. These additional conditions transcend their cause; their nature is obviously not legal, but rather political. According to the ICJ advisory opinion of 1948, no "political considerations" can be superimposed on, or added to, the conditions set forth in Article 4(1) that could prevent admission to membership. The broad nature of the prescribed admission criteria already provides space for appreciation of all political factors relevant for the judgement on the fulfillment of these criteria. With its imposed provisional name (for use within the UN), i. e. with its derogated legal personality, and its obligation to negotiate with a neighboring country over its name, Macedonia has a legal status within UN which is obviously different from that of other member-states. Membership to the UN Organization, as a legal status, contains a standard set of rights and duties that are equal for all members of the Organization ("sovereign equality of the Members" ). The admission of Macedonia to UN membership with additional, non-standard conditions (that impose on the member certain membership obligations) may be interpreted as "conditional admission", and, consequently, the resulting membership status as 'conditional'. The Charter, however, does not provide for conditional membership in the Organization. Suppose that Macedonia decides at one point in time not to comply anymore with its membership obligation to negotiate with Greece over its name. What could be the possible UN sanctions for such non-compliance? Expulsion from UN membership would only prove that its present membership status is conditional. Other forms of sanctions would also indicate, in less evident way, the conditional character of the membership status. Obstruction of the "settlement of the difference" over the name during the negotiating process may be another form of non-compliance with the membership obligation. Such obstruction in the negotiating process may be, however, introduced also by the other negotiating party (from political, economic or other reasons). The fulfillment of the imposed admission obligation may, therefore, depend not only on the good will of the party carrying the obligation, but also on a factor outside of its control. In fulfilling its membership obligations, Macedonia is, thus, not independent, which is another difference of its membership status with respect to the other UN member-states. There is still another important feature of the legal status of Macedonia as a UN member. By imposing the additional condition for admission of using a provisional name for the state within the UN, the legal personality of the future member-state has been heavily derogated by the very act of admission. The derogated legal personality of Macedonia in the United Nations system is most clearly manifested in the area of representation. In all acts of representation within the UN system, and in the field of UN relations with other international subjects, the provisional, and not the constitutional, name of Macedonia is to be used. 212.83.144.225 (talk) 13:15, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Too long, difficult to read - Can this be summarized? Can this be discussed on the article talk page, or is this a request for Jimbo or the WMF? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I Can try to summarize. The presented detailed analysis of the legal aspects of SC Res. 817 (1993) and GA Res. 47/225 (1993), related to the admission of Macedonia to UN membership, and the legal effects of these resolutions on the membership status of Macedonia in the UN lead to the conclusion that these resolutions are in clear violation of the UN Charter. The imposed additional conditions for Macedonia’s admission to the UN directly violate Article 4(1) and are contradictory to the accepted interpretation of this article as a legal norm. The denial of a sovereign state’s right to free choice of its own legal identity (name) by these resolutions, and imposing an admission and membership condition on that state to negotiate over its own name with another state, violates Articles 2(1) and 2(7) of the Charter. The imposed admission and membership conditions on Macedonia define a discriminatory legal status of this state as a UN member, again in violation of Article 2(1). The legal responsibility of the United Nations for violation of the Charter’s provisions derives from the UN’s duty to respect the basic rights of states (either as applicants or UN members), which are protected by the principles of international law enshrined in the mentioned articles of the Charter. The character of these violations is of ultra vires type with respect to the legal norms of the Charter as a multilateral treaty. The violations of Articles 4(1), 2(1) and 2(7) involve the legal personalities of both the UN and Macedonia. This provides a basis for instituting judicial redress, based on the use of the advisory jurisdiction of ICJ, of the legal consequences resulting from the breach of constitutional provisions. The violation of Article 4(1) (imposition of additional admission conditions) has an obvious character in view of the explicit and extremely clear Court’s interpretation of Article 4(1) in 1948, and its acceptance and legal implementation by the General Assembly the same year. (In fact, from a legal point of view, the case of irregular admission of Macedonia to the UN is only a particular case of the most general and already resolved ICJ Admission case, and resolution by legal means should be regarded as the most logical and straightforward option. The exit strategy should be a Resolution, passed by the UN General Assembly, to replace the reference "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" with the constitutional name - the Republic of Macedonia. An alternative would be to request an Advisory opinion from the International Court of Justice for the imposition of additional conditions on Macedonia before its UN membership. Once this is done, the General Assembly should replace the illegal reference "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" used now with the constitutional name - the Republic of Macedonia.)

212.83.144.225 (talk) 16:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages articles are based on published sources - and not on the personal analysis of contributors. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:06, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Or for a more helpful informative from some one who actually knows about this subject, a thought out response- International law is what the international community itself is willing to impose on... itself. While 212's insight is from a strict constructionist viewpoint of established international norms and "law" there is no method of enforcing international law or norms, or the UN Charter itself, on to the UN if that body or one of its subsidiary bodies wish to break the Charter. The International Court of Justice, the so-called judicial branch of the UN, can not enforce any of its decisions and would have to rely on the Security Council (good luck with that), and all decisions made by the Security Council will simply not be ruled upon by the ICJ at all based on that conflict of interest; one must assume that the decision for Macedonia to be admitted under a provisional name was sanctioned by the Security Council unanimously since any permanent member could have blocked the admission with a veto. Thereby having been sanctioned by the Security Council the ICJ has no authority per its own ruling made when Libya in 1992 protested British and American response to the Pan-Am bombing. US President Andrew Jackson once said "...the decision of the Supreme Court has fell still born, and they find that they cannot coerce Georgia to yield to its mandate" and "John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!" In plain English this means an executive branch unwilling to enforce a judicial decision renders the judicial decision moot. Basically, the problem you have regarding the UN and the naming of Macedonia is not for Misplaced Pages to decide who is right or wrong, nor under international law is it anyone's decision; the UN has spoken and there is no method of judicial review. If you want things changed, you should get a trillion US dollars together and offer it to Greece if in return they are willing to drop their objections to the Macedonia name, I hear they could use the cash.Camelbinky (talk) 21:54, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Camelbinky is absolutely right, specially regarding the "is not for Misplaced Pages to decide who is right or wrong" part. Misplaced Pages is an online encyclopedia which does its best to cover all subjects in most objective and informative way, giving special attention to neutrality and verifiability. I beleave that what the gentleman who brought the issue here wants is to have those aspects he mentioned included in the article. For that to be possible, we need reliable sources which would allow the addition of such content. Without them, it all becomes original research. If you have the time and the sources, you can expand the article yourself, but be aware of these Misplaced Pages rules I linked here. FkpCascais (talk) 22:18, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

As a source one can take American Journal of International Law, vol. 93. no. 1. (1999) . Macedonia’s admission to UN membership in April 1993 (General Assembly (GA) resolution 47/225 (1993), pursuant to the Security Council (SC) resolution 817 (1993) recommending such admission) came with two conditions in addition to those explicitly provided in Article 4(1) of the UN Charter, namely the candidate’s acceptance of: (i) being provisionally referred to as the ‘Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’ (for all purposes within the United Nations) and (ii) of negotiating with another country over its name. These impositions are part of the resolutions, which also recognized (explicitly in SC resolution 817) that the applicant fulfills the standard criteria of Article 4(1) of the Charter required for admission. One can conclude that the attachment of conditions (i) and (ii) to those specified in Article 4(1) of the Charter for the admission of Macedonia to UN membership is in violation of the UN Charter. Now, Macedonia should just repeat the Court (precedent) model given in 1948 regarding the conditions for admission of a state to the United Nations. Solving the problem of the name of Macedonia in the UN status by requesting advisory opinion from International Court of Justice on the conditions for admission for Macedonia is the most desirable path for Macedonia to follow since it includes proven principles and norms of international law, and the Court's authority and jurisdiction that once came out for this issue. 212.83.144.225 (talk) 22:59, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Possibly. And if and when that happens, and is reported in reliable sources, Misplaced Pages can include the matter in relevant articles. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:02, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, still you did not address why there is no any legal dimensions and aspects in the article of Macedonia naming dispute. Why Macedonia for more than 20 years did not resolve that issue with Greece and accepted any compromise. It seems apparent that there is no solution to the name issue through negotiations with Greece, and may never will be one. On the other side US administration stated for many occasions that it is the strategic interest for the NATO to include Macedonia in its membership. Now, that goal appears to be very far from the destination. 212.83.144.225 (talk) 23:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a collaborative project to create an online encyclopedia. We cannot solve the actual problems of the world here. (See also, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

With due respect to everyone here, I thought that the task of Misplaced Pages is to present all relevant facts on the issue. And the relevant here are legal matters surrounding that particular multilateral problem. The Article on the name dispute unfortunately did not covered any of crucial issues, particularly those that can explain why the compromise is so far away or even unreachable. 212.83.144.225 (talk) 23:49, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

If you have secondary sources claiming that the legal issues are relevant and that they make the compromise unreachable, go ahead and add the content yourself. As Newyorkbrad said, Misplaced Pages is a collaborative project, and your collaboration is welcomed. Don't expect someone else to do the work for you. Also, beware that what you need are secondary sources which will provide the view on the matter you are exposing here. You will not be able to provide sources for facts and then draw your own conclusions. I am just saying that in order to make it easier for you to know how Misplaced Pages works. FkpCascais (talk) 02:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, for advise, Regards to everyone!212.83.144.225 (talk) 10:26, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

This IP is of course again the "Igor Janev spammer", aka Operahome (talk · contribs) (and innumerable socks). Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:41, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Hello

HI! A random (or coincidental, or not at all) hello from 1234567890Number 16:39, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

You got a barnstar!

	Wikimedia Commons Barnstar
	Founder Award! 1234567890Number 16:44, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

1234567890Number this is one of the best trolls of Jimmy I've seen in a while. Kudos! 88.115.153.126 (talk) 05:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Kickstarter campaign by User:TonyTheTiger

Jimbo,

I want you to be aware of a Kickstarter campaign (#TTTWFTW) that has just gone live. I have not yet sent out any tweets, yet. Comments are welcome at User_talk:TonyTheTiger#My_Kickstarter_campaign_feedback. I will probably not tweet about this until tomorrow.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:28, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Do you have a commons account or is this strictly for uploads to Misplaced Pages?--Mark Miller (talk) 18:41, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I post my images at commons and use them for WP articles.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:52, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I would recommend eliminating any promise of what is going to happen on Misplaced Pages. For example: "Images will be used in the 2015 McDonald's All-American Boys Game wikipedia article as well as player biography articles as well as the recruit sections of team season articles." I'd reword that as "Subject to community approval, images will likely be used in the..." My guess is that your statement is *truthful* (I mean, why wouldn't the images be used there? It isn't likely that there will be any other quality images of that game.) The reason for this suggestion is to avoid any suggestion that you are selling the right to specify content in Misplaced Pages. Since I doubt your backers will have any COI, there's no reason for them to want that - they just want to know that, generally speaking, your work is respected and frequently used in Misplaced Pages.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Obviously, a superior photographer could show up and decide to license his/her images for WP-eligibility, which would make my images less useful. Such a photographer could dominate my images if they wanted to. So your correction is well-taken. I have made the changes you have suggested. Thanks for your feedback.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

• FYI, I am now going to start contacting friends and such by email and twitter since it is tomorrow on the east coast. So this is really going live in terms of my soliciting now.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Annoying Glitch

If this isn't the right place to report glitches, tell me. But first, I'll explain what's going on. Theres this really, really annoying glitch with the new visual editing system that's in beta right now. Every time I type something on there, the article keeps scrolling up on me, and it's getting annoying Future WWE Champion, DrewieStewie (talk) 00:52, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, this isn't really the right place for anything, but somehow everything ends up here ;) For the record, the place to go is Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/Feedback. -- Ypnypn (talk) 01:12, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

• Well, I guess VE is here proving a boon to building new editor engagement, eh? Carrite (talk) 13:28, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm, a self-described 13 year old Californian with alopecia and autism that spells "organizational" with an S.... Hmmmmmm......... Carrite (talk) 13:31, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Said at GGTF arbitration

Some people seem to think that ArbCom is so naive they don't know that the Manchester Gangbangers and their cronies/minions are engaged in institutionalized harassment using ArbCom as one of their harassment tools. They think just explaining that will open their eyes and they'll do the right thing.
No, the only thing that will clear Misplaced Pages of this vicious coterie is a national publicity campaign to pressure the WMF into enforcing its Terms of Service, including against culpable ArbCom members. (I see several Sitush/Corbett/ cronies/minions are running for the next Arbitration Committee.) And I'm one of dozens who see it that way, we just haven't decided where to organize our efforts. Just because their tactic worked on silencing 1.2 billion Indians with their Brit imperialist drivel doesn't mean it will work on silencing 3.3 billion women. After all 1/2 the members of the Board are women. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:26, 25 November 2014 (UTC)