Misplaced Pages

1. 25 October 2006 – 18 June 2007
2. 19 June 2007 – 13 November 2012

With all due respect, running in a highly visible congressional election, Illinois's 6th congressional district election, 2006 does not qualify you as a "minor public figure". Also, you are the Director of the Illinois Department of Veterans Affairs which makes you very much a public figure and a major one at that. See NEW YORK TIMES CO. v. SULLIVAN, 376 U.S. 254 (1964) to remove any doubt about your rights regarding this. Now, if the information is not accurate then you may have rights, assuming you can break though the protection Wikipeida has in regards to Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. Not to sound cynical, the sword can cut both ways.TEAMCrocko 00:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)—This user is a suspected sockpuppet of banned editor Joehazelton—

Is there a published source cited for the birthdate and mother's maiden name? I didn't see one in the article, but maybe I'm missing something. Videmus Omnia 01:12, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see the mother's maiden name comes from the Washington Post. Still looking for the birthdate. Videmus Omnia 01:13, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Birthdate cited as well. I'm afraid the information is encyclopedic and has been published in multiple reliable sources, so I think removing it would only damage the article to no good effect. Even if we removed it here, it would make little difference in deterring identity theft, as the information could easily be found elsewhere. I've changed my opinion, see the WP:BLPN entry. Videmus Omnia 01:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

NOTE: This discussion then shifted to Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive26#Tammy_Duckworth_.28closed.29. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ybbor (talk • contribs) 02:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Back in 2007, Tammy Duckworth requested that her date of birth and mother's maiden name be removed from the article. Much of the debate, especially in the early going, centered around just how prominent a public figure she is and whether she was entitled to special treatment. At the time, Duckworth had recently been appointed Director of the Illinois Department of Veterans Affairs, and was less than a year removed from a run for Congress that received international attention. It was ultimately decided to accede to her request, and the information remains excluded. At least one person who supported granting the request specifically mentioned revisiting the issue if her profile rose.

Since then, Duckworth was mentioned as a possible replacement for Barack Obama in the Senate. In fact, she was supposedly a favourite of Dick Durbin (and possibly Rahm Emanuel) before the Blagojevich arrest. Thereafter, she was mentioned in published reports as a possible Veterans Affairs Secretary and a possible candidate for Rahm Emanuel's House seat. Ultimately, she was appointed Assistant Secretary of Veterans Affairs for Public and Intergovernmental Affairs (she was confirmed April 22).

I don't take a position either way, but I think it is time for a second look at this issue. A part of the discussion is above, but the full discussion is at Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive26#Tammy Duckworth (closed). -Rrius (talk) 07:49, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

She's a public figure, and the birthdate information should never have been removed in the first place. I say put it back in. As for the mother's maiden name, that seems pretty irrelevant. Why was it in there in the first place? Nutiketaiel (talk) 11:32, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I do not see that her new appointment has caused her public profile to rise (other than brief period when her appointment was part of the news cycle) sufficiently to revisit. Looking at the previous discussion (ignoring the politically motivated POV arguments), the reasons that applied then seem no less relevant now.

As for the argument that she is a "public figure", she is Assistant Secretary of Public and Intergovernmental Affairs for the United States Department of Veterans Affairs; IMO that does not make her a terribly high-profile public figure, and I don't think her her previous position in Illinois did so either. I also do not believe that her name briefly being bandied about as a possible nominee for positions that were ultimately filled by others, while it might make her more noteworthy to Misplaced Pages, does not make her more a public figure. -- Couillaud (talk) 14:44, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Her appointive postion in Illinois was never the primary basis for considering her a public figure. She was a Democratic challenger in a Republican district who received national and international press attention. She is clearly a public figure. Also, you are ignoring the fact that she is now a person mentioned for important elective office in Illinois when such offices come open. She was repeatedly mentioned as a candidate for U.S. Senate and for Rahm Emanuel's House seat. It is frankly a matter of fact that her profile has risen. The question is whether she has passed a point where there is no longer any reason to honor her request for special treatment. I leave that question to other editors, but it is nonsense to argue she is not a public figure and that he profile is no higher now than in 2007. People less notable than her have their exact birth dates listed and have their mothers' maiden names included when their parents are discussed in their "Early life" sections. To boil it down, is it reasonable to believe that including one or both bits of information poses a substantial risk creating identity theft? -Rrius (talk) 21:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I will repeat my earlier statement from just above yours: "I also do not believe that her name briefly being bandied about as a possible nominee for positions that were ultimately filled by others, while it might make her more noteworthy to Misplaced Pages, does not make her more a public figure." I am not ignoring the fact that she was briefly mentioned in a number of articles as a possible appointee to the House or Senate as you feel I did, I am discounting its importance in this issue, as it was a "fifteen minutes of fame" kind of thing. If she had actually been chosen for those offices, then yes, the situation would be different, but it is not now, IMO.

Ms. Duckworth made the request personally for this, the issue was heavily discussed, and a decision to abide by her request was reached in accordance with Wiki rules. I see no compelling reason to change that, and unless you can offer some evidence that her noteworthiness, fame, etc. have changed significantly during that time, I see no reason to revisit the issue. -- Couillaud (talk) 20:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

If this info is available online, why can't it be posted on this article? I call it censorship.--XLR8TION (talk) 05:43, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I see no reason to provide her actual day of birth, esp as per her request and the prev resolved dispute about it, but i think mentioning the month might be helpful in being able remove that really weird-looking "(Age 40-41)" desig atop the article, when we know she's 41 (and 1/2 ;-) now. I'm also gonna reword desig for mom & dad, to avoid people (frequently) trying to put in the maiden name (that Tammy requested be removed) Beansandveggies (talk) 09:55, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Why is this still censored? She has been the head of the Illinois DVA and is a candidate for elected office yet again. 72.94.174.90 (talk) 18:10, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Tammy is a public figure without any doubt question or debate, 99% of all the other Senate and Congressional biographies have birthdays listed so the question begs why does Tammy Duckworth deserves this special treatment. I think it's silly that her birthday is censored which is inconsistent with Misplaced Pages philosophy. So, considering there is a consensus now to add the birthday I went ahead, being bold, I added it back.Themightywind (talk) 07:42, 29 April 2012 (UTC)—This user is a sockpuppet of banned editor Joehazelton—

I assume you're familiar with the process of WP:BRD, in which you've been bold, it's been reverted, and now it's back to discussion. If you're not, please give that link a read and take note that the process is bold-revert-discuss, not bold-revert-revert. Turning to the issue at hand, I disagree with your statement "there is a consensus now to add the birthday". The consensus to withhold her birthdate information was originally formed back in 2007 at this location here. In the conversation thread just above, it was brought up again in 2009, with no clear consensus to change the outcome. Very recently, an IP address editor suggested it should be changed again in March 2012, followed by your comment yesterday. Again, this does not even remotely indicate that consensus has changed - not by a long shot! If you would like to proceed from here to revisit the consensus issue, I would recommend that you look into the WP:RFC process, in order to draw more attention to the issue and invite new editors to come here and comment on the prior consensus and as to whether or not the article should now change to include her exact date of birth. If you have questions about how to do that, just let me know. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 13:28, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I strongly support inclusion of her birth date. She's running for public office (again) and frequently appears on national TV programs. She's not a private citizen, and more notably her public figure status is something she has specifically sought out. Furthermore, if she wins in November, her birth date will be published in the Congressional directory and elsewhere, whether she likes it or not. Arbor8 (talk) 14:29, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Hello, Arbor8. I'd certainly agree that Duckworth is a public figure. Did you read the prior consensus discussions and were aware of the policy arguments that took place previously (see link above), including the point that Duckworth (herself) objected to her full date of birth being included for identity theft related concerns? Are you familiar with the relevant policy? See WP:DOB; I'll copy the relevant portion here: "With identity theft a serious ongoing concern, people increasingly regard their full names and dates of birth as private. Misplaced Pages includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object. If the subject complains about the inclusion of the date of birth, or the person is borderline notable, err on the side of caution and simply list the year." Hence, given that she complained about including the exact date of birth, consensus was to follow Misplaced Pages policy: err on the side of caution and simply list the year. Nonetheless, if you'd like to work with Themightywind and start an WP:RFC on this issue, please feel free. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 14:57, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I'm familiar with the relevant policies and the specific history here. Do you know whether Ms. Duckworth continues to object to the inclusion of her birth date? I'd certainly be more inclined to defer to her wishes, at least pending the outcome of the election, if we knew they were current. Failing that, I'd like to go ahead with an RFC. Arbor8 (talk) 17:29, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

No clue on whether or not she may have changed her mind since then. With regard to an RFC, do you want to work up a proposed version on how to phrase it? I assume it will include addressing the policy consideration above as it's a key component to where consensus has stood up until now. AzureCitizen (talk) 17:59, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Ms. Duckworth is a big public figure no question about that. Also the argument of identity theft is non sequitur for I can find her birthday and other information on the Internet in approximately 10 seconds, so that the argument that her birthday information endangers her privacy, which Tammy is a public figure has no expectation, of is a moot point. Now since she is in involved with a campaign for November 2012, Tammy should have no expectations of her basic information i.e. her birthday to be private. If Ms. Duckworth wants privacy she should withdraw from public life and become a private citizen if that's so important to her. Again Misplaced Pages is not about censorship particularly information that is in the public domain i.e. particularly if public figures birthday.Themightywind (talk) 19:46, 29 April 2012 (UTC)—This user is a sockpuppet of banned editor Joehazelton—

Duckworth is a public figure and can not have any expectations that reliably published sources must withhold information like her exact birthday; indeed, it's been published on the Internet in news stories and articles, and that is readily verifiable. Further, everyone here agrees that Misplaced Pages is not censored. Her exact birth date, however, has not been "censored" for any arbitrary or impermissible reason; quite the contrary, it is based on a policy. That policy contemplates that Misplaced Pages may include "full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources," but that if a person objects about the inclusion of their date of birth, we are to "err on the side of caution and simply list the year." You can read that policy at WP:DOB. Given the policy, what are your policy-based argument points that lead you to the conclusion that we should overturn the prior consensus? AzureCitizen (talk) 20:02, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

If we can confirm that Ms. Duckworth continues to object to the publication of her birth date, then I don't see any reason to include it. However, omitting such basic information about a clearly notable person on the basis of a five-year old complaint seems silly to me. Arbor8 (talk) 22:52, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

If we can confirm she no longer objects, then we have every reason to include her date of birth. Concluding that her objections have probably evaporated, however, seems silly to me. If she did not want her exact date of birth on her Misplaced Pages BLP then, why would she want it listed now? WP:DOB does not require that a subject must periodically re-assert an objection to their date of birth being listed, lest such rights expire. If we're going to make assumptions here, we should err on the side of caution and assume they don't want their exact DOB listed until we hear otherwise. AzureCitizen (talk) 23:55, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

who cares what she thinks? Tammy is a nationally known political figure and candidate for a Federal office (congressional district 8), and don't have the expectations of this level of privacy considering her status as a national known public figure. This website is about truth, not about censorship. Themightywind (talk) 16:58, 26 June 2012 (UTC)—This user is a sockpuppet of banned editor Joehazelton—

As mentioned previously, the relevant policy is WP:DOB. It says that if a subject objects to the inclusion of their exact date of birth, we simply list the year instead. AzureCitizen (talk) 22:02, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

The mentioned policy wp:dobONLY applies to private or semi-notable people. Tammy is a full blown, nationally known Public figure and will be speaking on National TV at the DNC convention this fall. The DOB policy don't applies to national known congressional candidates. If Tammy don't like the public attention, then she should get out of National politics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Themightywind (talk • contribs) 20:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC) —This user is a sockpuppet of banned editor Joehazelton—

WP:DOB does not make exceptions for whether or not a subject is a public figure; it applies across the board. If you disagree, please point out your reasoning and rationale, preferably using quotes from the policy. Thanks, AzureCitizen (talk) 20:55, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Silly me, I did point out the reasoning and rational. Besides, The DOB policy is not clear on PUBLIC FIGURESThemightywind (talk) 21:01, 24 August 2012 (UTC)—This user is a sockpuppet of banned editor Joehazelton—

NOTE: This discussion then shifted to Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive160#Tammy_Duckworth. --AzureCitizen (talk) 22:48, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Duckworth is now a duly elected Member of Congress and a representative of the US government; as such she is no longer a private citizen, but a public one, and it is the duty of Misplaced Pages to inform people about her, including her birth date. In short, if she didn't want her life publicized, she shouldn't have run for election. To summarize, I recommend we update her birth date. Grammarxxx 22:59, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

The relevant policy, WP:DOB, says that if someone objects to the inclusion of their date of birth, we are to simply list the year of birth. This privilege is extended to any BLP subject who requests it, regardless of whether or not they are a public figure. Misplaced Pages didn't have to provide such a courtesy in formulating the policy, and public figures have no protection against others publicizing the information, but Misplaced Pages chose to do so, hence we follow the policy. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:27, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

She is a MEMBER OF CONGRESS!!!! The birthday is fair game and Misplaced Pages should not be engaged in censorship. Your argument is lame. Policy is this...WP:BLPPRIVACY "Misplaced Pages includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object." The DOB is fair game.24.13.94.139 (talk) 05:14, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Simply dismissing an argument as lame is no way make your case. I do believe we should look back at her request; she wrote it back before the election, when she was a private citizen. Now that she has been elected to Congress and her information is public knowledge, and I feel that unless she requests it be removed again for some reason, which I seriously doubt she would, it should be added to Misplaced Pages. Grammarxxx 05:37, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

For interested editors, please have a look at Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive160#Tammy Duckworth. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 13:14, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Censorship is pointless now, since Tammy Duckworth is a public firgure and the whole world knows her brithday.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.57.192.113 (talk) 21:21, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Read the thread above and you'll find that the applicable policy is WP:DOB, not censorship. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 21:31, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

It's convenient to ignore this policy WP:WELLKNOWN if you insist on playing wiki lawyer. Censorship is what you want. Regardless of what Tammy want's the policy don't cover this and she is a major public figure, a congresswoman and has absolutely no expectation of that type of information to be private. Furthermore, the insistence to censor such information smacks of partisanship by you. 68.57.192.113 (talk) 21:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

...whereupon the matter was referred to ANI after 1, 2, and 3. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 22:54, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Redacting my words in this discussion is not very nice. It would appear Misplaced Pages is all about censorship. Censorship is what you want. Any fool can Google "Tammy Duckworth Brithday". Regardless of what Tammy want's the policy don't cover this and she is a major public figure, a congresswoman and has absolutely no expectation of that type of information to be private. Furthermore, the insistence to censor such information smacks of partisanship by you. 68.57.192.113 (talk)

Misplaced Pages is a private organization had has the right to respect peoples wishes, even if it may be construed as "censorship". This is not your public library where all information will just be given to you; if you wish to find Duckworth's DOB, than feel free to go to Google. Crying foul and censorship will not get you anywhere here, because until Duckworth wishes for her DOB to be published here, it will remain unpublished. Grammarxxx 07:01, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The problem with your Ownership argument is at YOU don't own Misplaced Pages and don't have any more say then me on this subject.

The problem with your augment is that's not what Misplaced Pages advertises itself to be. "Misplaced Pages seeks to create a summary of all human knowledge in the form of an online encyclopedia.." but what I see here is CENSORSHIP of legitimate information on a major political public figure just because Tammy got some kind pull in wiki. The only reason why is you are partisan to this person at the expense of this principle. I wonder if she or some of her friends are paying you for this censorship. Any rate, this is really a small place with petty bureaucrats who lost their way.68.57.192.113 (talk) 08:39, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

True to form, you keep lambasting and maligning the intentions of any editor who tries to follow the WP:DOB policy here by declaring their intentions to be about partisanship, censorship, petty bureaucracy, etc. You've been pursuing this line in an obdurate fashion for years now Joe, yet you are no closer to your goals in imposing your will here in your demands that displaying Duckworth's exact date of birth is "fair game." Your choice of words in your arguments going all the way back to 2007 are telling; it is you who is the one who is emotional about this, and it is you who are the one who puts your desire to see Duckworth's DOB listed here over all other principals and norms. Why? Just because Tammy Duckworth herself doesn't want to see it listed, and personally requested as much? So it's personal to you to? Duckworth does not have some sort of "pull" on Misplaced Pages, by the way. We are simply following the rules when we redact the DOB, and would have gladly done so for Peter Roskam as well had he asked. You seem to have a terminal case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, however, so until you find a way to make peace with this, you'll just be endlessly butting your head against the wall here. I can't help you in that regard I'm afraid. Peace and good luck with that, AzureCitizen (talk) 13:51, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Its deeds,not words I judge on and the deeds are simple. You are censoring legitimate, widely publish information about a extremely notable politician and public figure with weak and lame arguments is self-evident. Further more, the personal attack on me in-order to dis-credit and divert the argument away from your Censorship is self-evident as well. All of this shows how truly weak Tammy Duckworh is as well and the lack or integrity to the basic principle. of Wikipeidia. Finely, it don't matter there is about 1/2million adults in dupage county and any one who opposes the liberal leet here are all labeled "Joe" also show the weekness of those who run wikipeidia. P.S. What about policy WP:WELLKNOWN I guess I make a poor wiki lawyer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.57.192.113 (talk) 22:50, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

There are plenty of "self-evident" truths here for editors to take a look at, but lets "judge deeds", as you've said. You've repeatedly try to force the material into the article without seeking consensus to overturn the current WP:DOB policy. How do you justify that? If you disagree with the policy, or its interpretation, you are free to take your concerns to the relevant noticeboards again, yet you choose not to. If you think somehow WP:WELLKNOWN trumps WP:DOB, why not make your case at the BLP noticeboard? AzureCitizen (talk) 22:56, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

And you repeatedly Censored legitimate information. What justification you have to censor such basic and well published, public domain information, again read the term "Encyclopedia" in Websters and WP:WELLKNOWN Luckily, there is the Blue water internet as well as Goggle and the fact that most educated people think Misplaced Pages is a festering swamp of petty bureaucrats in training and places of lies, dam lies and Wiki-policy anyway. Just more poof here, by your deeds, and action, and the argument I am having here, shows who's right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.57.192.113 (talk) 23:14, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

WP:DOB, as interpreted on the BLP noticeboard at Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive160#Tammy Duckworth, is the "justification", while WP:WELLKNOWN says nothing about date of birth. Again, more dodging the question on your part and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT - take it back to a noticeboard or you're just spinning your wheels here. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The question is Censorship and you're dodging that question. The question is.... is the Birthday of a Highly Visible, public figure, an elected Congresswoman, need to be censored, considering its splayed all over Google and the internet. Apparently, Tammy Duckworth has no problem with Goggle publishing her birthday? Whats going on here? Any thing else is minutia and not relevant to this argument of censorship by Misplaced Pages. Finely, I'm not going to try to wiki-lawyer an expert Wiki-Lawyer over inane, and contradictory wiki-policy which make no sense any way. It's a waste of time. Tell Tammy her birthday is out there any way. 68.57.192.113 (talk) 02:35, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

For any editors who come along later and read this thread, you can find the long running history (since 2007) of this issue over the subject's date of birth at the top of this page in the thread Talk:Tammy Duckworth#Request from Tammy Duckworth to withhold date of birth and mother's maiden name. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 05:07, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

IMO if the Biographical Directory of the United States Congress includes the date (when it is updated), then I see no reason why we should not - the date seems to have been provided to other news organizations, so we have WP:RS to verify it. – Connormah (talk) 03:35, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Hello, Connormah. The date is readily accessible via internet searching; the reason why we don't include it is because the subject requested it, hence WP:DOB says we should simply list the year of birth instead. You can find more information on this if you read the linked noticeboard threads above. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 04:36, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

This topic should be re-opened with an RfC if possible. If the date is given to news organizations and appears that readily through a web search, and through official congressional directories, it should appear here. The subject seems to have asked a few years back, a time when she was less notable as she is currently - she will be sworn in as a congresswoman, a highly public position. If privacy concerns are that important, then I don't see why the date was given out to sources such as The Washington Times and most likely the Biographical Directory of the Congress. Basically, the date should probably appear here if it appears readily via reliable sources. – Connormah (talk) 05:30, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

With regard to the date appearing in the news and/or congressional directories, are you picking up some sort of indication in the sourcing that the subject volunteered the information? If so, please link it so that we can take a look; it is my understanding that while Misplaced Pages provides the WP:DOB courtesy, news and other organizations are not bound by those policies, hence it is public record and they will do as they please. There is no indication at present that Tammy Duckworth "gave" that information to them. With regard to notability and the status of being a public person, Misplaced Pages's policy at present does not restrict the courtesy of asking for your DOB to be withheld to only private persons; it applies to both private persons and public figures. You can see that being discussed previously on the BLP noticeboard here: Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive160#Tammy Duckworth. The WP:DOB policy is a subsection of the WP:BLP policy article, which generally errs on the side of caution in favor of an article's subject. As a result, how do you propose to address the policy issue here? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 14:33, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

A WP:RFC probably wouldn't hurt here - inevitably, there will be others that will try to insert the date since she is a well-known figure now, a congresswomen. The request was made in 2007 from what I can see when her notability was not where it is now - we could try contacting her office maybe to address the issue, but I think wider comment may be helpful here. – Connormah (talk) 18:24, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

If someone is able to contact her or a trusted staffer in her office and confirm she no longer objects, that would clinch the issue right there (assuming reasonable authentication); I suspect that will be a tall order, however. With regard to an RFC, wider community commentary is usually a good thing, but we have to address the underlying policy aspect. As this is part of WP:BLP and has been raised a couple times before at the BLP board, a competent RFC should take place there rather than here. The core of the issue revolves around how we interpret and apply BLP policy in this regard; resolve that, and the answer becomes obvious (whether to include or exclude). Are you interested in drafting a proposed RFC? Something which includes the history, yet invites reconsideration of the issue? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 04:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I think an RFC on the subject would be a good idea, since like Connormah said, in 2007, she was nowhere near as notable as she is now. In fact, if someone really wanted to know her birthday, the Congress bioguide linked on the page states it. Canuck 22:53, January 4, 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that it was linked. Can you point out for me where that is on the article? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:00, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

It's in the external links section. I also support an RfC, GAR, or some other method to review the current situation and establish a consensus. Edge3 (talk) 01:09, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't think to look there. At present, there is a consensus, based on the original 2007 BLP noticeboard discussion, and continued along through the years including the most recent BLP noticeboard airing of the issue in 2012. Theoretically, a public figure far more prominent than Tammy Duckworth could post a request tomorrow on their BLP article asking that the month and date of their birth be removed, and according to Misplaced Pages's policy, that courtesy would be extended to them (if it was authenticated). Consensus is always subject to change, but it is a BLP policy issue, hence we're talking about either 1) trying to get the policy changed outright or 2) changing the way the policy is interpreted and overturning precedent. In either case, I think an RFC should take place on the BLP noticeboard as that is the policy forum where the consensus was established. Is anyone interested in writing up a proposed RFC that includes what has gone before but invites reconsideration of the issue? I've seen support for an RFC by three editors now, but nobody has put forth a draft. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 03:09, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think that WP:BLPN would be the appropriate forum for this, since the edit war has somewhat died down. We can agree that WP:DOB requires that the full date of birth be removed, but we can't agree on whether WP:DOB is constrained by other guidelines such as WP:WELLKNOWN and WP:OPENPARA. We are seeking a clear consensus on how to interpret all of these policies in a harmonious way. WP:RFC states that we can do this here (on the talk page) or in a separate page. I'll take a closer look through the policy pages to see where we should discuss this further. If the GA nominator decides to take this to GAR, this issue can also be revisited there. What do you think? Edge3 (talk) 17:45, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll wait until you've got time to work on it. If you feel we really should host the RFC here rather than at the BLP board, that's okay with me as we can post an appropriate link there about the issue being revisited with an RFC here. When you're available, let's first parse out a draft here too so that we can nuance the finer points of what we're attempting to resolve, we don't want a hastily worded RFC result in a lot of comments by drive-by editors who don't know the extent of the issue. Finally, I'd like to point out something important about the edit warring that has taken place here for many years over this issue; if you take the time to work back through the history, you'll find that the battle to edit war the DOB into the article has always been fought by one stalwart individual who has repeatedly returned via sockpuppeting. The socks are easy to spot because they edit almost exclusively over the Duckworth issue, repeatedly reverting on the article itself while posting on the Talk Page their outrage over "censorship" and/or admins allegedly collaborating with Tammy Duckworth herself for "partisan" reasons, or some other similar nonsense. If a named account, they'll typically have a long dormant period between creation and when they show up to edit war, as the sockmaster told admins in 2009 that he has "dozens of accounts ready" for when he needed them. If an IP address, they always resolve to the greater Chicago area (where the individual is known to live). If you'd like me to supply you with specific examples of his IPs and/or blocked sockpuppet accounts warring over this Duckworth DOB issue, let me know. The point is, if we're going to have an RFC, you can expect that individual will probably try to participate (via continued block evasion) to affect the outcome. No worries, but it's important that you be aware of it.  :) Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 01:41, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• May I point out the her DOB is listed on the Italian wiki linked to this page (in addition to the Congress Bioguide I noted above)? Have we yet realized that with her being elected to the US Congress, that our efforts at censorship are mostly pointless? Canuck 04:10, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Complying with WP:BLP (specifically, " If the subject complains about the inclusion of the date of birth... ...simply list the year.") is not "censorship". Duckworth's date of birth is readily available on the Internet for anyone who chooses to search for it; other parties are certainly not obligated to render any such courtesies. The fact that there may be links on the article right now to an Italian Wiki article or a congressional guide is not a valid argument for vitiating WP:DOB; on the contrary, it would support their removal. If you think Misplaced Pages's BLP policy should be changed, there are avenues for that, plus a well thought out RFC may ultimately result in consensus changing. Someone could also make an erstwhile effort to see if the subject can be contacted and asked if they would like to cancel their previous request. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 05:57, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

As Tammy Duckworth has previously requested to have her birthdate excluded from this article, we have complied as per WP:DOB. This decision is the result of a consensus developed over several years, as documented on #Request from Tammy Duckworth to withhold date of birth and mother's maiden name.

The request may have carried more weight in 2007, when Ms. Duckworth had less notability as an official in the Illinois state government. However, now she serves on the US Congress and has less of an expectation of privacy, as per WP:WELLKNOWN. I am initiating this RfC to request that the community allow this article to display Ms. Duckworth's full date of birth, as per WP:OPENPARA and WP:WELLKNOWN. WP:OPENPARA states that "The opening paragraph should have... dates of birth and death, if known". Since the date of birth is known, the MOS urges us to include it. Furthermore, WP:WELLKNOWN suggests that we should publish information that is "noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented", even if the subject does not want it mentioned.

For reference, the birthdate is published on her official, Congressional bio (). Edge3 (talk) 01:58, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Do not include. I see no good reason to go against her specific wish. It is not vital information and the MOS does not override our responsibility towards living subjects of biographies.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• do not include - have you read the threads above? This issue has been discussed ad naseum. Why does her birthdate matter to you? If she specifically asked to have it removed, in hopes of a little bit of security-through-obscurity, we can certainly do this for her. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:44, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

  FYI, a newer thread in January 2013 suggested that an RfC may be necessary. Just because the issue has been discussed ad nauseum doesn't mean we can't discuss it now. Edge3 (talk) 03:53, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Why not include it? As Edge3 noted, it's not that hard to find her birthday, since its published on her official Congressional bio. Canuck 03:58, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
• I don't think it's up for debate to say that at this point her full DOB is extremely easier to readily find presently rather than around 6 years ago. I see no reason not to include it at this point as the circumstances have obviously changed from 2007. In addition to the Congressional bio, it is worth mentioning that multiple 2012 election publications also include the full date. – Connormah (talk) 04:31, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Include. Consensus can change. Widely available information from multiple reliable secondary sources. Published in her own congressional bio, which obviously renders her six year old request moot. Gamaliel (talk) 06:19, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Weak Include - Agree with Edge3 that this subject clearly has become more notable, which suggests it might be more appropriate now than it was previously to include the birth date. At the same time, agree with User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· that there is very little value to readers to know her exact date of birth, and there are legitimate personal privacy concerns as suggested by WP:DOB. All-in-all I think the bottom line is that, for better or worse, it's probably not reasonable for US members of congress to expect that their birth date should not be public knowledge. NickCT (talk) 12:32, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Do not include per the prior rationales in the archived talk page threads unless the policy issue is resolved. WP:DOB states that if a subject complains about the inclusion of the date of birth, simply list the year instead. It's obvious from looking at WP:BLP that WP:WELLKNOWN was not intended to trump WP:DOB which comes immediately afterward. Regardless of the stature of the subject (let's say it's the President for example, rather than a first term Congresswoman), or Internet exposure of the information (let's assume even the simplest of Google searches will return the exact birth date), WP:DOB makes it possible for any subject to request their exact DOB be omitted and Misplaced Pages renders that courtesy. There is nothing in the policy about second guessing the subject's intentions or putting an expiration date on their request. If it's important to include the exact month/day here on the subject's Misplaced Pages entry, we should either 1) contact the subject and ask if they would like to rescind their prior request or 2) amend the WP:DOB policy such that it doesn't give subjects that unconditional courtesy. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 19:50, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• WP:BLPPRIVACY also states that "Misplaced Pages includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object." - I thinks that this can be argued at this point that this has become the case. If anything, it seems that people are coming to this article and asking themselves, "why is the full date missing?".. – Connormah (talk) 23:15, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• WP:BLPPRIVACY is the sentence immediately preceding WP:DOB: "Misplaced Pages includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object. If the subject complains about the inclusion of the date of birth, or the person is borderline notable, err on the side of caution and simply list the year." Thus, we display a subject's DOB if it has been widely published, or if an inference can be drawn, but if a subject complains, we err on the side of caution. Again, a policy change should be sought to put the matter to rest. Additionally, it is unlikely the subject herself personally created the biographical entry at bioguide.congress.gov. That database covers every congressperson since 1774 and is likely maintained by non-elected Government service employees who are charged with assembling the information for congressional records. On that last point (the readers), I certainly agree with you, I'm sure people do come to this article and wonder why the month/day is missing. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 00:52, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• Some more sources that state the full date, just for reference: – Connormah (talk) 03:27, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• Include My rushed thoughts are that if the information is PD, we should summarize it here. I have not read related policies though.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:51, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Include: It's the right thing to do, perhaps not by Misplaced Pages standards, but by encyclopedic standards. Grammarxxx 16:27, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Include More well known than before, already published in many sources.--Otterathome (talk) 15:08, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
• Include Found in multiple reliable sources, and as a former Federal official (2009), her birthdate was public record in many places now. Inane to withhold something so widely found. Collect (talk) 17:10, 28 July 2013 (UTC) clinches it for me. Collect (talk) 18:13, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
• Do not include I have trouble understanding why anyone wants this information on a garden-variety biography. It is not typical for encyclopedias to include birthdates unless there is some particular reason, such as a national holiday on the person's birthday. I suppose that an encyclopedia written by astrologers would include birthdates for everyone, but who else cares about this? Does knowing that the subject is born on January 4th or 5th or 6th (or whatever the date is) really improve your understanding of the person? (Again, for non-astrologers.) The exact date is pretty close to trivia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:48, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• Birth dates may may be trivia, but almost every other biography on this encyclopedia provides birth dates, as instructed by the MOS. The question here is whether there is a compelling reason for this article to go against the MOS by providing the year only and not the date. Edge3 (talk) 22:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't think that complying with BLP really counts as "going against the MOS". If you think that these are in conflict, then I suggest changing the MOS to reduce trivia and more clearly comply with BLP. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• Do not include. WP:BLPPRIVACY is clear about this: "If the subject complains about the inclusion of the date of birth, or the person is borderline notable, err on the side of caution and simply list the year." SlimVirgin 17:02, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
• Additional reason to not include I recently emailed Duckworth, and received the following response:

From: Duckworth for Congress <info@tammyduckworth.com>
Date: July 31, 2013
Thanks for checking with us - we really appreciate you seeking the congresswoman's input. 
Rep. Duckworth still prefers that her birthdate not be published.
Please let me know if there are additional steps we should take to weigh in.
Thank you,
Eve, Duckworth for Congress

--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:27, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

You've already voted. Hot Stop talk-contribs 01:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Include Privacy can only apply to information that is at least somewhat private. Otherwise, elected officials (and others) could constantly be challenging sourced info on WP on the grounds of so-called "privacy." Arbor8 (talk) 18:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
• Include the information is readily available on her congressional bio. Her concerns about identify theft fall flat unless she can prove she's more likely to have her identity stolen than any of the countless other individuals have who have birthdays listed on Misplaced Pages. Hot Stop talk-contribs 01:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

It should be noted, Duckworth's Misplaced Pages bio is the only Congressman Bio, which Wikipeida has no birthday on it.Seeroftruth (talk) 14:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Include Based on Wikipolicy WP:WELLKNOWN, WP:OPENPARA as well as her birthday is published on her official, Congressional bio () IF she don't like it on wiki, then don't be a congressmen, Her request, considering her status as a "ELECTED PUBLIC FIGURE" precludes and superseeds her desire to keep her bday off of Misplaced Pages. Duckworth's desire to keep her birthday off of Misplaced Pages is unreasonable and should be ignored, based on Wikipolicy as stated above, as well as basic Encyclopedic standards. Seeroftruth (talk) 13:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Please read Misplaced Pages:BLPPRIVACY#Privacy_of_personal_information_and_using_primary_sources, which states, quite clearly: "If the subject complains about the inclusion of the date of birth, or the person is borderline notable, err on the side of caution and simply list the year." That's pretty clear, and there's no "tough cookies" clause. Why exactly do you want to ignore a reasonable request, esp from an elected official who lost two legs while serving her country? The insensitivity in the responses above is rather stunning- plz remember BLPs are people too.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Its rather stunning considering, even Duckworth's Official bio on Congress.gov includes her birthday demonstrates how ridiculous her request is. Also, such compliance with such a ridiculous request, calls in the question the fairness and non-bias place Misplaced Pages should have on Political Bios. as well, it should be noted that Duckworth is the ONLY one of the 500 Plus Congressmen listed on Misplaced Pages? What makes her so special is to warrant this special treatment?Seeroftruth (talk) 14:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it's a ridiculous request, and publication elsewhere doesn't mean much. We don't have to dig into details as to why she doesn't want it listed here - it's a simple fact that she doesn't. We would do the same for any other figure on wikipedia who made the same request - so if 500 congressmen request it tomorrow, we should delete their birthdates too. We're not giving her special treatment, we are giving her standard treatment accorded to all bios and enshrined in our policy.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:44, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - This is not a valid topic for an RfC, as any calls to "include" are moot per WP:BLPPRIVACY, which is part of a policy page. BLP policy cannot be occasionally be set aside as guidelines can, so if there is objection to how the Misplaced Pages currently treats date of birth and the subject's wishes therein, you would have to make your case at Misplaced Pages talk:BLP and gain consensus for a policy change first. Tarc (talk) 14:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Policy: or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object -- I suggest her official Congressional bio is "linked to the subject" and that she did not object to the DOB being in it. Collect (talk) 15:05, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
    • I think you need to brush up on your reading skills a bit. The first few sentences describe what we do in normally in regards to date-of-birth and BLPs. The Next sentence tells what the exceptions are; a) the subject requests removal, or b) the subject's notability is notable. Condition "a" is satisfied. Case closed. The only thing this hinges on is whether the person requesting the deletion is verifiably the subject...if that is going to be a nitpick, then all we have to do is point her or to WP:OTRS. Tarc (talk) 15:16, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Include This is an encyclopedia, not a data base of information. Its sourced and its notable. And we cannot simply remove reliably sourced and notable information from an article simply because some random ip or new account "claims" to be the person in question.--JOJ 14:44, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Did you read the email cited above? That was sent to me from her official congressional account, after I posted a query on her official web page. If you have doubts, I encourage you to write her directly and ask her yourself, or I can forward the email to you. I'm an editor in good standing here, I don't know Duckworth and have never heard of her until this discussion, and have no reason to make sh*t up.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Your email is not a reliable source for her information, nor would mine be. And if being a editor in good standing, which you are, is enough of a reason to add or remove information from Misplaced Pages, then we wouldn't need sources or proof at all.--JOJ 15:13, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

That is an absurd argument. We are talking about exluding information not adding it, and removing information does not require reliable sources but a consensus of editors in good standing. What is your reason to assume that someone other than Duckworth would email Obi Wan Kenobi to have the birthdate removed. AGF applies. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree. If you notice, the staffer who responded to the email even asked if there was more they could do. Are we really going to force them to send a formal request in triplicate to WP:OTRS? The only other possibility is that I'm making this all up, which, frankly, is absurd.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Just to be extra clear, Duckworth's staffer did not initiate the conversation with me. I asked a question on her official website, and her staffer responded a few days later (having presumably talked to her). That exchange was way more than enough for me.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:25, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• DO NOT Include per the WP policy on BLP DOBs, and the policy on the misuse of primary sources in BLPs. These policies are crystal clear on this issue: "If the subject complains about the inclusion of the date of birth ... simply list the year." (from WP:DOB) and "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth ..." (from WP:BLPPRIMARY). I agree with Tarc, we should not even be having this discussion. If you don't like the BLP policy, feel free to begin a discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Biographies of living persons. Until that policy is changed, any further discussion here is moot. -Wine Guy~Talk 16:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Except it's not solely primary sources that we're relying on. Multiple secondary sources that I have linked above do include the full date. – Connormah (talk) 19:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• The sources argument isn't important, what is important is that the subject has made their wishes known, and per policy, the full DOB can be kept out. There is no wigle room here; if you want wiggle room, then goto the BLP talk page and propose a change in policy. Tarc (talk) 19:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Yes, I should clarify a bit. My point in referring to BLPPrimary is that many here are arguing that since her DOB is listed on her official congressional webpage that it should be fair game. I would suggest that her webpage falls into the category of being both a primary source and a public record; while there are other sources, the congressional page is specifically excluded from consideration according to our policy. Regardless, the WP:DOB issue still applies. That the information is available elsewhere should not give us latitude to casually throw BLP policy out the window. –Wine Guy~Talk 19:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Include As a Member of Congress, she has no reasonable expectation that this information would be kept private. --rogerd (talk) 20:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

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