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Links to Speeches and Letters of Shach

Recently I came across several speeches and letters from R' Shach on http://hebrewbooks.org/:

I thought these are very valuable in that they are directly from Shach, and I haven't found other places on the internet where they have these things available to read. I thought that some of these speeches and letters would be appropriate to be linked in the External Links section. I read through WP:EL carefully, and I think that these would qualify. (I believe that these links are more appropriate than the ones we discussed here Talk:Elazar_Shach/Archive_1#Bookspam) What do the other editors think? Yonoson3 (talk) 21:46, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

This would not be appropriate; please review WP:LINKFARM. A properly-written Misplaced Pages article has few external links. Jayjg 01:47, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Ok. So would ONE link to the following http://divreiaviezri.blogspot.com/ be ok? Yonoson3 (talk) 03:54, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
No, that's a blog, so it would violate WP:ELNO #11. Jayjg 00:26, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
One of the links provides a primary resource (i.e. Shach's own writings) for an in-depth discussion of the general statement made in the Wiki article - Shach was deeply opposed to Zionism, both secular and religious. He was fiercely dismissive of secular Israelis and their culture. - http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=33425&pgnum=14 Would it be proper to have this as an external link?Yonoson3 (talk) 04:46, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
And this "Shach supported the withdrawal from land under Israeli control, basing it upon the Halakhic principle of Pikuach Nefesh (" saving life"), in which the preservation of lives takes precedence over nearly all other obligations in the Torah, including those pertaining to the sanctity of land" - http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46420&st=&pgnum=289 Yonoson3 (talk) 05:09, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Continued - Quote from R' Moshe Grylak

Continuation from here.

This quote was removed again: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Elazar_Shach&diff=491958870&oldid=491958707 http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Elazar_Shach&diff=494085535&oldid=493767388

As mentioned earlier, I don't understand why this is not a reliable source. I am not aware of any contradictory sources in R' Shach's writings.

Any objections in putting it back? Yonoson3 (talk) 04:32, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I agreed then, and I agree now. Debresser (talk) 18:33, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

It definitely fails WP:V and as it is, at best, an editorial comment, it cannot generally be relied upon as a statement of fact, as per WP:NEWSORG. Not to mention the problem with this particular statement considering that it also fails the WP:EXCEPTIONAL rule. In light of these glaring issues, it should not be restored until there are multiple independent sources cited.--Winchester2313 (talk) 04:11, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Adin Steinsaltz

Regarding the following sentence:

"In the summer of 1989, a group of rabbis including Shach placed a ban on all of Steinsaltz's works."

Winchester2313 took this out (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Elazar_Shach&diff=495405170&oldid=495340600), explaining "Removed improperly sourced violation of WP:BLP".

These are the sources I have found so far:

http://printingthetalmud.org/essays/13.html Printing the Talmud: From Bomberg to Schottenstein, Yeshiva University Museum, 2005, pg. 137.

http://www.yoel-ab.com/katava.asp?id=115

Popularizing the Talmud: An analytical study of the Steinsaltz approach to the Talmud by Rabbi Joseph Elias - The Jewish Observer, January 1990, pgs. 18-27. Available here: http://www.jewswithquestions.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=2</ref>

Are these sources valid?

Yonoson3 (talk) 05:57, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Instead of repeatedly coming on here and asking silly questions about whether hate-sites or blogs qualify as 'sources', why don't you bother actually reading the guidelines, so you can appreciate what doesn't qualify. Here are some links, to make it very easy: WP:RS WP:V WP:NOR You also (obviously) need to read WP:BLP before continuing your spamming.--Winchester2313 (talk) 06:14, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Here's another source:

http://www.ranaz.co.il/articles/article3071_19890804.asp

Yonoson3 (talk) 06:26, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

No explanation was given as to why these sources are invalid. I'm restoring it. Yonoson3 (talk) 07:50, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

The Jewish Observer article, as well as the book "Printing the Talmud", seem to be valid sources. Why not? Yonoson3 (talk) 00:14, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

No objections given the past several weeks to valid sources, so I'm restoring it both here and on the Adin Steinsaltz page. Yonoson3 (talk) 00:34, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify what sources are being used here:
There are 4 printed sources:
1. Book - Printing the Talmud - http://printingthetalmud.org/essays/13.html
2. Magazine Article - The Jewish Observer - http://www.jewswithquestions.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=2
3. Newspaper Article - Yated Ne'eman - http://www.yoel-ab.com/katava.asp?id=115
4. Newspaper Article - Davar - http://www.ranaz.co.il/articles/article3071_19890804.asp
Being that several of the above are from many years ago and thus difficult to get a hold of a hard copy, I also supplied links to websites where these articles can be read in full online.
Hope that clarifies things. Yonoson3 (talk) 05:50, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Sources #1 and #3 check out. After clicking source #2 I receive an error message "Sorry, you don't have permission for that!". Source #4 mentions a ban only of 3 of Steinsaltz works. Debresser (talk) 08:17, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Regarding #2, try going here (http://www.jewswithquestions.com/index.php?/topic/225-r-adin-steinsaltz/) and then clicking on the article download. Does that work? Yonoson3 (talk) 08:34, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

No it does NOT work, annd all it does is show how desperate you are to invent lies and pretend that Shach the fucking moron was not alone in his crazy attacks on everybody else, when he really was. Source 1 does not say what you claim. Source 2 is not valid by wikipedia standard. Source 3 is an obvious forgery that a fuck like you knows full well. Source 4 also does NOT support what you trying to say here.

Relationship with R' Chaim Ozer Grodzinski

I had added the following paragraphs recently:

Rabbi Chaim Ozer Grodzinski would sometimes consult with Shach before making halachic rulings. Among the halachic queries addressed to Grodzinski and relayed to Shach for consultation were some that came from scholarly rabbis throughout the Diaspora. The Chazon Ish once told Shach that a number of times after he had addressed halachic queries to Grodzinski, the latter had told him that he had relayed them to Shach, and how Shach had responded to them.

When Grodzinski published the third volume of Achiezer, he gave a copy to Shach's wife, who happened to be visiting at the time, and said "Give this sefer to Reb Leizer, for whom did I write if for, after all, if not for him?"


^ Path to Greatness – The Life of Maran Harav Elazar Menachem Man Shach, Vol I: Vaboilnik to Bnei Brak (1899–1953) – pg. 351. E.g. http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21194&st=&pgnum=197 Yeshurun:11:page 196

^ Path to Greatness – The Life of Maran Harav Elazar Menachem Man Shach, Vol I: Vaboilnik to Bnei Brak (1899–1953) – pg. 352

^ Path to Greatness – The Life of Maran Harav Elazar Menachem Man Shach, Vol I: Vaboilnik to Bnei Brak (1899–1953) – pg. 355

^ Path to Greatness – The Life of Maran Harav Elazar Menachem Man Shach, Vol I: Vaboilnik to Bnei Brak (1899–1953) – pg. 350

These were subsequently removed by I.P. 12.150.29.247 , saying that they violate wp:rs and wp:v.

As mentioned by Jayjg in a previous discussion (http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Elazar_Shach/Archive_2 "Regarding R' Asher Bergman's book "Path to Greatness""), "Feldheim is a reasonably respected publisher of Judaica. If you believe the book to be unreliable, please raise the issue at WP:RS/N."

Anybody agree with me that the sources from this book are valid?

Yonoson3 (talk) 06:07, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Feldheim is certainly a reliable source. Yoninah (talk) 07:08, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Agreed. And the info is relevant, if even it reeks a little of overly praise. Debresser (talk) 08:39, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

The information you want to put into the article here is so incredible that you need more than just one source, especially when that 'source' is a book written by the subjects grandson and is full of stuff that all falls under wp:exceptional. Here are just a few of the obvious problems:

  • Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski was the undisputed posek of his time, maybe the first time someone's halachic authority was as widely recognized and accepted accross the spectrum of orthodox communities. To believe that he sent halachic queries to a wandering young teacher who never even became a posek - ever - is a real stretch.
Whether R' Shach later became an official posek later on in his life is immaterial. R' Chaim Ozer valued R' Shach's opinion as a talmid chacham, so he asked him to look into certain shaylos... Not really such an "unbelievable" claim.. Shach may not have been internationally renown at the time, but to those "in the know" (e.g. Brisker Rav, R' Chaim Ozer, Chazon Ish), his Torah opinion was highly valued... Yonoson3 (talk) 21:38, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not immaterial at all. In the 1920's Rav Shach was (at best) just another unknown yeshiva lecturer, and considering that he never even served as a rabbi anywhere, the idea that he was consulted on matters of practical halacha is ludicrous. The claims made by 'Path to Greatness' are very exceptional and don't belong in an encyclopedia unless there are multiple sources. Read wp:exceptional before trying this again.C Steffen 06:46, 11 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Csteffen13 (talk • contribs)

  • Likewise to imagine that another (later) major posek - the Chazon Ish, would have his queries 'forwarded' by the greatest halachic authority of the time to a junior lecturer in a yeshiva is just crazy.
  • The claim that Chaim Ozer Grodzinski said he told Rav Shach's wife that he wrote his book for her husband is obviously fake, as Rav Grodzinski writes very clearly in his introduction to both volumes WHY he was publishing the books, and Rav Shach is not even mentioned once!!
The quote was probably just R' Chaim Ozer's way of showing Mrs. Shach how much he valued her husband. I wouldn't call it "fake", but after thinking about it, I agree that it is unnecessary to be included in the article. But I still think the other quotes should remain.Yonoson3 (talk) 21:38, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
  • All of these claims coming from a grandson who is way too young to possibly know any of these supposedly true fairytales firsthand makes it all even stranger.

Yonoson3 needs to get some unrelated sources that qualify under wp:v and wp:nor to support this information before sticking it back onto the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Csteffen13 (talk • contribs) 13:26, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

All the stories are well-documented and sourced. As mentioned earlier, an example of R' Chaim Ozer asking Shach to look into a shayla is documented here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21194&st=&pgnum=197 Yonoson3 (talk) 21:38, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Nice try Yonoson3 obviously can't read Hebrew, or just thinks he can make stuff up and misquote sources with incredible chutzpa!! The one letter you're trying to make a standard out of, shows NOTHING of the sort. Shame on you.76.66.210.60 (talk) 04:30, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

"הגרח״ע ביקשני לעיין בזה" Sounds pretty clear, no? Yonoson3 (talk) 04:41, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Not really. It's just what was supposedly 'discovered' by his weak son in-law after Shach croaked. It takes a real sucker to believe that but if you do, have I got a bridge to sell you!! Not to mention that those words just mean "asked me to look into it", no big deal. Stop trying to make Shach look like more than he was, namely, a bitter old man who couldn't stop spewing hate at any and everybody who wasn't exactly like him. Sore loser is all he was. Just listen to ANY speech of his and all you hear is weird rambling with a lot of hate and attacks mixed in.76.66.210.60 (talk) 06:00, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

There are a lot of things to criticize about Rav Shach, but I don't think this kind of language is apropriate when speaking about a Rabbi, especially after he's already dead. --C Steffen 02:01, 27 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Csteffen13 (talk • contribs)



That is simply not true. I read 'Path to Greatness' for a few hours today, and almost everything in there is undocumented hearsay. Claiming to have been told something by some unidentifiable rabbi or other doesn't mean 'sourced'. Why not read wp:rs before editing any more, so you can get an idea of the type of materisl that wikipedia considers reliable? C Steffen 06:57, 11 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Csteffen13 (talk • contribs)

A few of your points go well with what I meant by "overly praise". After all, this Shach guy was not such a big gaon. Debresser (talk) 14:13, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
"After all, this Shach guy was not such a big gaon." Debresser, that was uncalled for. You're personal opinion of how big a gaon R' Shach was is not relevant. (Are you a baki in Avi Ezri that you can evaluate his geonus?) (FYI, read the Brisker Rav's haskama on the Avi Ezri. And read this kuntrus:"Halacha K'Rabbi Elazar" and this sefer "Pineenai Rabbeinu H"avi Ezri" if you want to know more details...) Yonoson3 (talk) 21:47, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
It is relevant, because based on that fact I find it hard to believe that revered older geonim would consult with him. Debresser (talk) 06:27, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Avi Ezri is a pretty 2nd rate attempt at pilpul, and its sad if thats what Shach is supposed to be judged by. What a loser. The Avi Ezri is irrelevant in most yeshivot, for good reason!76.66.210.60 (talk) 04:30, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Please check out the beginning of Rabbi Yitzchak Hutner's letter here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21194&st=&pgnum=237&hilite= and Rabbi Yitzchok Zev Soloveitchik's approbation here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=47354&pgnum=59 and the quotes from the Steipler here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=50717&pgnum=48. You're personal opinion about the merits of the sefer "Avi Ezri" are irrelevant. Yonoson3 (talk) 04:46, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

You mean Shach scored some boilerplate haskomos on crap he stuffed into a book he published....wow!! The man was never a halakhic authority or anything unique, except for his crazy hate and attacks on so many people/groups, THAT was unique.76.66.210.60 (talk) 06:03, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

It's much more than that. The timeline of the lives of Rav Chaim Ozer, the Chazon Ish, and Rav Shach make the stories spun by Asher Bergman almost impossible to believe. The printing timeline and introductions to the 'Achiezer' basically confirm that a lot of the stuff in 'Path to Greatness' is just pure fantasy. C Steffen 18:06, 10 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Csteffen13 (talk • contribs)

Please specify what you mean. How does "the printing timeline and introductions to the 'Achiezer'" show that the information is "just pure fantasy"? Yonoson3 (talk) 21:25, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I just don't have the time to spell out every obvious tall tale in dumb (and obviously false)hagiographies more than I already did above, but if you keep trying to insert stuff that fails wp:v and wp:exceptional I'm pretty sure you will get reverted. Why not actually read the guidelines for a change instead of robospamming the page?--C Steffen 14:49, 11 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Csteffen13 (talk • contribs)

Kuntres Chiddushim Ubiurim al HaRambam Hilchos Na'arah Besula

I recently added this link to the "Bibliography" section:

Kuntres Chiddushim Ubiurim al HaRambam Hilchos Na'arah Besula

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21194&st=&pgnum=130

It was subsequently removed by 74.8.80.215 (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Elazar_Shach&diff=528663834&oldid=528663594).

I think it belongs here because it is a significant pamphlet written by Shach himself, and most of it is not published in the Avi Ezri.

What do the other editors think? Yonoson3 (talk) 05:48, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

If that bibliography is supposed to be complete, then I don't understand why it was removed. If it is supposed to bring only the most important of his works, then this one can be removed. Debresser (talk) 16:33, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
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