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Synthesis and sources

Discussion

I've updated the GLBT Section in two ways:

A. As the article has been built up over the months, it has developed into a good example of WP:Synthesis#Synthesis of published material that advances a position, which states: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." (Emphasis supplied.) I've removed such syntheses.

• "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made."
• "Contentious material about living persons (or recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion."

None of the sources cited in the Section explicitly states that "controversial stances on certain issues of interest to the gay community have drawn criticism from journalists and gay rights advocates," as the article has put it up to now.

B. Some of the sources cited are not Reliable.

Of the sources cited, only four are Reliable:

1. The LGBT Weekly story is an example of good journalism.
2. George Prentice is a journalist.
3. Stephanie Mencimer is a journalist. She did say that "VanderSloot has long been a controversial figure in Idaho politics, particularly when it comes to issues involving gays and lesbians," but she did not explictly state that "controversial stances on certain issues of interest to the gay community have drawn criticism from journalists and gay rights advocates."
4. Trudy Ring is a journalist. But in this particular article, she wrote only that "Greenwald also reported that VanderSloot has often threatened journalists who write about him and outed a gay one," citing an opinion piece by Greenwald and doing no independent reporting of her own.

None of these four sources state explicitly that VanderSloot's "controversial stances on certain issues of interest to the gay community have drawn criticism from journalists and gay rights advocates."

The following sources are not Reliable, except in a very limited sense:

1. The Glenn Greenwald article is not a WP:Reliable source because Greenwald is a "political commentator," as Salon stated on his page, and in this particular article is not writing as a journalist (pretty well nailed by Greenwald's non-journalist assertion that VS "has a history of virulent' 'anti-gay activism, including the spearheading of a despicable billboard campaign)."
2. Jodi-May Chang may be "an independent journalist who lives in Boise," as she puts it, but in this particular article she is giving her opinion "As one of those very Idahoans active on LGBT issues," not simply reporting the facts as a journalist would. Also, nowhere in his article does she state that VS's "controversial stances on certain issues of interest to the gay community have drawn criticism from journalists and gay rights advocates."
3. Rachel Maddow is described in her WP article as an "American television host, political commentator, and author," not as a journalist.
4. Dean Miller is certainly a journalist. But this particular citation is to an opinion column, written in the first person, not to a news story that can be used as a Reliable Source.

And even Greenwald, Chang, Maddow and Miller do not explicitly state that VanderSloot's "controversial stances on certain issues of interest to the gay community have drawn criticism from journalists and gay rights advocates."

Of course sources like the four just above can be used as WP:RS#Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves, but not if they involve "claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities)."

Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 13:13, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm inclined to revert everything you've done today as ridiculously tendentious and downright silly. First, you remove the sources that amount to journalists and gay rights advocates criticising VanderSloot's views/actions re gay rights. Then, you remove the statement about "criticism from journalists and gay rights advocates" because you don't perceive that that statement has any support in sources. There is nothing at all in RS saying that opinion pieces cannot be used to support statements about the opinions of the commentators -- in fact, RS says precisely the opposite. The point about self-published sources is entirely irrelevant given that these are not self-published sources. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:57, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

One may not agree with the reasoning, but it is hard to argue against the fact that the new version says what the Sources say and says it accurately, without editorializing and without violating WP:BLP. GeorgeLouis (talk) 20:59, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

As per Nomo's comment, there was no justifiable reason for deleting the sources or the text. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:44, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The reasons are: Pure synthesis and faulty sources. GeorgeLouis (talk) 19:10, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Except there is no synthesis and the sources are clearly WP:RS. Several sources have referred to VS as virulently anti-gay, so it would not be out of line if the article mentioned that. However, the current version of the BLP takes a much more conservative approach and merely says that his stances on gay issues have generated controversy -- perfectly reasonable. The repeated attempts at whitewashing are tendentious. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

A discussion on this topic has been opened at Misplaced Pages:No original research/Noticeboard#Frank L. VanderSloot. GeorgeLouis (talk) 04:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Request for comment

The questions are:

1. Based on the claim of Synthesis, should the original version or the revised version of the Section be used in the article from henceforth—of course with the ability to edit it as necessary?
2. Because the original "LGBT issues" Section adversely comments on a Living Person, should that section be immediately replaced with the revised section—of course with the ability to edit it as necessary?
3. Should the Sources identified as faulty or not germane be eliminated from the list of References?

The discussion is taking place at Misplaced Pages:No original research/Noticeboard#Frank L. VanderSloot.
GeorgeLouis (talk) 23:07, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Notices have been sent to all editors who have posted at Talk:Frank L. VanderSloot, except for User:Chum and change, who could not be located. GeorgeLouis (talk) 01:18, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Having no knowledge of this man I had to do some research on him before I decided whether or not to get involved. I've read the conversation so far, including on the other page, and I think I'm pretty well caught up. I believe that the section, as it currently exists on the page, is rather good. The first sentence is well supported by the articles linked(do we need so many for one sentence?) and is not original research. I believe that the list of people that condemned him and that he later threatened lawsuits against don't need to be as long either. One or two examples should suffice in each case. Ayzmo (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

The extensiveness of the "criticism" material appears to run counter to Misplaced Pages policy. BLPs are not supposed to show how evil a person is, but to present an WP:NPOV biography. Collect (talk) 16:26, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

That assertion goes well beyond the topic of this thread. Nonetheless, it's unclear what you are referring to as "criticism". The article reports that VanderSloot is a prominent financier of conservative causes and candidates (including attack ads); that he has taken stances on LGBT issues that have generated controversy; that he has threatened to sue some of his critics; that his company was targeted by various agencies (for misleading advertising, etc.). Those are not criticisms; they are merely facts -- facts that have been widely covered by reliable secondary sources. Based on these facts, some might consider VS to be a hero (you perhaps?) and others might see him as evil; but that's their call to make. The important thing is that the article does not make any such judgments, it merely reports the facts. That's the very definition of NPOV. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:51, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I am responding to the RFC, having no previous interest or knowledge of the subject. I'll respond on the LGBT point first. It seems unavoidable to me say anything other than the fact that Mr V has attracted significant hostility and criticism from LGBT communities. Whether that is justified or not is another matter. Mr V's own response, with his rebuttal of the criticisms, clearly demonstrates the fact that he was criticised. It seems to me that Mr V's decision to involve himself in a political campaign to change the law removing the right to have a gay marriage, i.e. removing a legal right, is more than likely to be the cause of the hostility. To ensure balance the article should be clear that Mr V does not believe that LGBT communities are the source of the criticism and hostility and that Mr V believe he has been targeted by President Obama, perhaps using the quote in the WSJ. On the first question, I don't have a particular problem with RIR's text but I do not think it is particularly well written or encyclopeadic. GL's text I am sorry to say reads rather like Mr V's advertorial. On the last question, I will not address this directly but rather I will raise a couple of issues that I hope will allow things to be moved forward. Who is Mr V? I think that we can all agree that Mr V is a major republican party donor who is a highly successful businessman. I presume that is why Mr V has an entry on wiki. It is difficult to write well concerning matters where there are strong personal views. RIR and GL are clearly at loggerheads. I hope these comments will allow the article to be completed. Isthisuseful (talk) 23:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate Isthisuseful's comment, but I had hoped to have an answer to to the three questions I asked above, which had to do with synthesizing the material and providing accurate and reliable sources. I worded my questions in a carefully neutral way, which I am afraid has been very much misunderstood, and I apologize for my infelicity, if such it is, or for paucity of communication. As for the comment, "GL's text I am sorry to say reads rather like Mr V's advertorial" could be something I could fix if I knew just what text Isthisuseful is talking about. Can he or she provide a diff to the text? One again, thank you, Isthisuseful. GeorgeLouis (talk) 04:17, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Request for Comment

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Biographies Politics, government, and law When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Should each mention of advertisements by VanderSloot against judicial candidates be labelled as "attack ads"? Should the words "attack ads" be wikilinked multiple times in the BLP? Should the term "attack ads" appear in both the lead and in the body? Is the complete list of ads UNDUE in the BLP in the first place? 00:20, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Comments

I suggest that iterating and repeating "attack ads" as was in an earlier state of this BLP was redundant and potentially non-neutral language when combined with the word "against" which rather implies on its own that the ads did not support the person named. I further suggest that iterating "attack ads" provides a non-neutral wording for the BLP, and that the extensive material critical of VanderSloot actually breaches the level of UNDUE in the first place. Collect (talk) 00:25, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

It would be a good start to see the sources that call these 'attack ads' as well. Arkon (talk) 00:45, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, you're in luck, Arkon -- it happens that there is a list immediately above this section. I don't think we need to go overboard with the term in our article, but there's no question that this is a well-used phrase in sources relevant here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 01:09, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

The sources do mention that these are considered attack ads, so the phrase is usable, however using it repeatedly is unnecessary and over-linking doesn't make any sense. Such repetitions have been removed at this point though, so the issue is moot in my mind--no one is arguing for more uses of the term at this point. Jeremy112233 (talk) 01:32, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Collect, your comment included a question that has never been an issue. Namely, there has never been a version of the article in which every instance of the term attack ad was wikilinked and nobody ever suggested that it should be, so the question is a non sequitor (and the answer is an obvious no).

On a more general note, WP guidelines on wikilinking (WP:OVERLINK) state the following: "Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers, links may be repeated in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, and at the first occurrence after the lead." Thus my suggestion to link once in the lead and once on first mention in the body text was perfectly reasonable.

Secondly, you previously reverted my edit in which I added the term back to the body text of the article in one place (appropriately sourced of course) so that it would be consistent with the use of the term in the lead. I explained very clearly in my edit summary and on the Talk page the rationale for doing so. I also directed you to WP:LEAD for guidance, because the relevant guideline is unmistakably clear. I can only assume that you either didn't take the time to read it, or that you simply disregarded it. Regardless, please take note now:

"The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects...It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article.

It would be really helpful if you actually read the comments I post and take heed of them. This whole exercise was futile and unnecessary, as I had already proposed a perfectly reasonable compromise, which you chose to reject in lieu of edit warring. WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT gets really tiresome after a while. Rhode Island Red (talk) 01:58, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Read WP:AGF and WP:NPA please. Your last edit wikilinks the phrase twice - and where the phrase is contentious, repeating the wikilink is surely contentious. You use editorial columns as a source for the claims. Columns which do not meet WP:BLP for contentious claims. You had at one point a full five uses of the phrase. And reverted to make sure there were five full uses of the phrase. Now you try deriding me as not knowing Misplaced Pages policies - which is not how to win friends and influence people, Red. Wikilinking a phrase sourced to editorial opinion columns twice in a BLP is a clear example of trying to push a POV. And your posts above make clear your distaste for VanderSloot, and I suggest that editing a BLP in order to show one's distaste for the person is a teensy bit likely to be viewed as non-neutral. I have absolutely no personal, financial, political, social, religious or other connection to VanderSloot whatsoever. And absolutely no connection to any other editors on this article whatsoever. And I would note that I was not the one who did six reverts in 16 hours. Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Collect, WP:OVERLINK makes it clear that's it's perfectly acceptable to wikilink a term once in the lead and once in the body text. There is no special proviso that says "unless (Collect thinks) the term is contentious, in which case repeating the term is surely contentious." If this is what your argument boils down to now, then I have to say it's much ado about nothing. BTW, I did not say that you didn't know WP policy; I questioned why you ignored the policies and went on a tear for nothing. One last suggestion -- check out WP:TPG and notice the parts about staying on the topic of the thread and focusing on editorial issues. Cheers. Rhode Island Red (talk) 02:42, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Again - please read WP:NPA. You seem unable to make a single post without making it a personal attack. And drop the grossly uncivil claim of "tag teaming" as it has been found to be uncivil many times now. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:55, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Jeremy, we've had a few disagreements of our own in the past, so I just wanted to let you know that I truly appreciate you taking an objective view on this. Rhode Island Red (talk) 02:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• I see no need to use the term "attack ads" as it is 9at least where I live) only ever used to disparage an opponent. Further, a complete list of the ads would be undue. --Nouniquenames 18:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Some of the items on the list above submitted by Rhode Island Red can simply be ignored—that is, any that don't use the specific phrase "attack ad." I would also ignore the item headlined "Attack ads have local link," in which a copy editor attempted to sum up the story just below and possibly did a bad job of it. Also, the opinion piece headlined "If you buy radio stations, who needs attack ads?" is simply that — an opinion piece, with a question as a headline. But, in any event, the neutral term advertising would also cover the attack ads, so what is the problem with simply using a term that covers the whole range? Yes, take out "attack ads": The phrase is pejorative. GeorgeLouis (talk) 23:55, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I don´t think "attack ads" should be used in the lead. "Advertisements" is a broader and more neutral word that covers it. "Attack ads" may be used one or more times in the body where the ads are discussed more specifically, if there are valid references. I agree with George Louis that caracteristics that are only in the headlines/ingress of a newspaper piece, and not in the body should normally be ruled out as headlines/ingesses are typically written by the desk and not by journos. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 01:34, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Yet another comment from WP Project Conservatism editor. We already know what the WP Project Conservatism editors' POV is on the issue. It's unclear however, why that position favors a vague term (advertisement) over the specific well-defined term (attack ads) used by the sources in question. "Attacks ad" is not an insult -- it is what the ads are and were called. Some input from editors independent of the Conservative project is needed. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:17, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

So I am a WP Project Conservatism editor now, am I ? Nope. Never been. Please retract your statement and please refrain from further personal attacks. There was an invitation to comment and I did. No reason at all for you to get incivil just because I happened to have another view than yours. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 19:42, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Didn't mean to rough your feathers. My statement may not have been entirely accurate, perhaps, but it was not too far off the mark either. I just assumed you were actually a member of WPPC based on a quick glance at the feed of "Articles on Conservatism" on your user page and the link to Andrew Schlafly, founder of Conservapedia, listed among your "Articles of Interest". That in itself sufficient to support my concerns about getting input in a content dispute exclusively from a particular narrow band of the political spectrum. Having gotten that out of the way, I have no intention of belaboring the issue here. If I feel that we are not getting sufficiently neutral input on disputes, I'll look to resolve it elsewhere. As for the content dispute, I don't understand the logic of your assertion to censor the specific and well-defined term used by the sources and replace it with a more vague term, and clearly I'm not alone in that position. 00:39, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

"was not too far off the mark either". I do think it was, and I do find your attitude of going to people´s usepages to profile them instead of just relating to what they say very troublesome. It doesn´t help that I feel your reply was kind of insinuating by pointing out things you found on my usepage (and a subpage) that "support concerns". To set things completely straight it now appears I may have to explain myself; I find that very unfortunate. Your idea to henceforth focus on content rather than users, appears very wise. But since suspicions have been raised about myself, I may find it necessary to come back to address your insinuations. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 03:26, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Iselilja, RIR. "Please refrain from baseless personal attacks." Actually, please refrain from personal attacks, period. I have a compendium of some of your personal attacks and will share it with you on your Talk Page, if you feel it might be helpful to you. Or I could send it in a private e-mail that no one else would see. Perhaps my doing so would help further the project by making you aware of how I at least feel about the remarks you have been making either here or in the Edit Summaries. GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:18, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

No George, please do not contact me by e-mail now or ever, and only post on my Talk page if policy requires it. Aside from that, I don't think it's productive to continue to air concerns about user conduct issues here, so going forward I think it would be best if you focused only on content issues when addressing me or commenting about my posts. I will do the same. That would be productive. If things continue to escalate, I'm afraid the matter might have to be hashed out at ArbCom. Rhode Island Red (talk) 00:45, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

• Uninvolved Comment - When it comes to WP:BLP all questionable info should be relentlessly deleted. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 00:48, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Template:Jimboquote

Sue, Jimbo was referring specifically to random speculation. That is not in fact the case here, as virtually all of the sources referred to the ads as "attack ads". The term has a specific meaning and it differs from the more general vague term "advertisements". So the argument you presented does not hold water. The info is not questionable. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:21, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Uninvolved editor comments

There seem to be four questions asked here which I have repeated below

1. Should each mention of advertisements by VanderSloot against judicial candidates be labelled as "attack ads"?
2. Should the words "attack ads" be wikilinked multiple times in the BLP?
3. Should the term "attack ads" appear in both the lead and in the body?
4. Is the complete list of ads UNDUE in the BLP in the first place? Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

• No to 1..3. (Yes to 4). There seems to be an increasing use of WP for campaigning and soapboxing. We are writing an encyclopedia not a campaign vehicle. Just because something is in a source does not mean that we should include it here if it serves no encyclopedic purpose, neither must we use the language of our sources. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Martin, those assertions don't seem to consistent with WP policy/GLs. WP:OVERLINK states that a term can be wikilinked in the lead and once again on first mention. It's a minor point, but either way the term should be wikilinked on first mention regardless of where it appears. Secondly, if the term appears in the lead, then it must in the body text as per WP:LEAD. Lastly, the compromise proposal was to use the term once in the first paragraph of the body text and once in the lead, not to include it repeatedly throughout the body text.

I don't agree with the assertion that including the term attack ads makes the article a campaign vehicle. The term has a precise meaning and it is used by the sources and in the article in accordance with that well-defined meaning. Journalistic coverage of VanderSloot's attack ads spans a decade -- there has been steady coverage of VanderSloots political financing, referred to explicitly as attack ads. The term was not used by one or two sources but by many; it's not a matter of why the term should be included (since the justification is clear) but rather why it would be warranted to censor it. If your argument is that the term should not appear anywhere, then that will be difficult to justify. The vague argument has been raised that use of the term somehow violates WP:NEUTRAL. I see absolutely no evidence of this, so if I missed a relevant statement in that policy, please point it out. According to my understanding, censoring the term would be biased and a violation of WP:NPOV, given that the policy states: "(NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:13, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

An RfC is a Request for Comment and not a place to try rebutting every independent view expressed as a result. Try letting the other folks actually express views on the questions posed, please. Collect (talk) 16:16, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

My comment was entirely appropriate since this is the place for discussion of editorial issues, not to hand down dictates chiseled in stone, nor to police other editors as you just did. Keep the comments focused on content please. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:00, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Marketing subsection

Inverted pyramid vs. chronological?

The question is, Should this subsection be written with the most important information first, in the inverted-pyramid style, or in a chronological style, with the accusation first and the result second? It is my contention that because the charge was dropped and because this accusation was so long ago that using the chronological style here would be infusing this subsection with a decidedly partial tone.

Inverted-pyramid style

In 1992 officials in Michigan and Idaho "cleared the company's marketing plan" of accusations it had countenanced violation of state legislation; they "blamed 'renegade' distributors for any problems." In Florida investigators were "looking at whether the company complies with state laws barring unfair trade practices and pyramid schemes."

In that year, Melaleuca signed an assurance of voluntary compliance with Michigan and Idaho agreeing to "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid.”

Chronological style

In the 1990s, Melaleuca was targeted by Michigan regulators and the Idaho attorney general's office for various marketing violations. In 1991 Melaleuca received a cease-and-desist order for violating Michigan’s anti–pyramid scheme laws. In 1992, Melaleuca signed a consent decree with the states of Michigan and Idaho agreeing to "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid.” Subsequently, "officials in both states cleared the company's marketing plan and blamed 'renegade' distributors for any problems."

I agree the first paragraph could be improved in its diction, but the main thrust should still be on the result and not the cause. Yours, GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:36, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Your summary of the difference is decidedly incomplete. Your preferred version makes no reference to the consent degree. I also think it fails to provide the reader a sufficient understanding of what the issue was; it only conveys that the company was cleared of something, not what the something was. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:37, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Here's a paragraph that keeps it all:

In 1992 officials in Michigan and Idaho "cleared the company's marketing plan" of accusations that Melaleuca had countenanced violation of state laws. The previous year Melaleuca had received a cease-and-desist order alleging the firm had broken Michigan’s anti–pyramid scheme laws. In Florida investigators had been investigating whether the firm had complied with laws "barring unfair trade practices and pyramid schemes." In 1992, Melaleuca signed an assurance of voluntary compliance with Michigan and Idaho agreeing to "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid.”

Subsequently, "officials in both states cleared the company's marketing plan and blamed 'renegade' distributors for any problems."

I agree wholly with Nomo on this one. The incidents were mentioned by several sources and none positioned the issue in the manner that George is suggesting. The proposed text lacks sufficient context and detail and seems quite misleading. Rhode Island Red (talk) 19:54, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Highlighting the charges, rather than the settlement, certainly violates WP:NPOV. What is the reason for keeping the chronological order? Also, the pyramid version has exactly the same data as the chrono version, including the sources. The settlement is certainly more important than the charges, which indeed were only charges. GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:25, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

George the version you are proposing is inconsistent with what the majority of sources wrote about the incidents. First of all, Melaleuca was not "charged"; they were "investigated". The investigation did not show that there was no evidence of wrongdoing -- quite the contrary; evidence of wrongdoing was found. The company was only able to prevent further action being taken by making concessions and agreeing to take remedial action. In addition, among the half dozen or so sources that described the incidents, none mentioned anything remotely like what you have proposed above (based on the Orlando Sentinel article). Here are specific examples:

In 1992, the Michigan attorney general's office investigated Melaleuca's business practices. The attorney general alleged that materials about a company program claimed participants were "making $80,000 to $100,000 within one or two years," and that bonuses were paid simply for recruiting new participants, which is illegal in Michigan. The AG also alleged that literature from a Michigan participant made false and misleading representations that the company was endorsed by the Michigan attorney general and the Federal Trade Commission. "The in this instance is very extensive and not our typical boilerplate," says Robert Ward Jr., the former Michigan assistant attorney general who drafted the agreement with Melaleuca. "We seem to really nail them down to specific remedies not ordinarily required in these cases... We were concerned with earnings claims and their entire marketing program. Melaleuca did not admit wrongdoing, but it signed an agreement with the state assuring that it would "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid," and that it would enforce its own policies to prevent distributors from referring to the FDA, FTC, or attorney general in its marketing materials. For a year, the state required the company to report monthly to the AG's office on the results of its effort to ensure compliance with the agreement.

"Melaleuca’s get-rich pitches have in the past caused Michigan regulators to take action, resulting in the company’s entering into a voluntary agreement to “not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid”‘; it entered into a separate voluntary agreement with the Idaho attorney general’s office, which found that “certain independent marketing executives of Melaleuca” had violated Idaho law."

"In 1991, after being slapped with a cease-and-desist order for violating Michigan’s anti–pyramid scheme laws, Melaleuca signed an agreement with the state’s attorney general under which it agreed to change its business practices."

These sources all paint a very different picture from the simple dismissal alluded to in the Orlando Sentinel article, which says that the marketing plan was eventually cleared but fails to mention the cease and desist order, that wrongdoing was in fact found, and that the company had to make concessions and change its business practices in order to be compliant with the law. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:29, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

All of which has little to do with the order in which the facts are given. From what you are saying, this section could be beefed up, and I suggest that you simply add all the pertinent information to the piece if you feel it necessary, but for consensus on this to mean anything, the results of all the legal activity should be be in the first sentence, not buried way down at the bottom. I feel you have not at all mentioned the topic I introduced at the beginning of this Talk section—chronological vs. inverted-pyramid—but simply reverted the Article section because you don't like Frank VanderSloot and want the WP article about the man and his life to be as negative as possible. I shouldn't have to remind you that "reverting good-faith actions of other editors may be disruptive and can even lead to the reverter being temporarily blocked from editing," because I am fully aware that you know a great deal about WP policies and procedures. GeorgeLouis (talk) 15:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

RIR's point is that saying that MI and ID "cleared the company's marketing plan" is not a good summary of the results of all the legal activity. I think he has presented good evidence in favor of that point. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:30, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

What gives?

I made a good-faith effort to meld all the viewpoints expressed above into a new paragraph that was written in the inverted-pyramid style (desired by GeorgeLouis), on the left side of this diff, omitting none of the other information which Nomo and Rhode Island apparently want to retain. User:Nomoskedasticity then simply reverted back to the version on the right-hand side with the Edit Summary (this edit is plainly lacking consensus on the talk page. What gives??) For the information of other editors, the right-side (reverted) version does not now enjoy consensus, nor did it ever enjoy such consensus, so how come it is preferred by Nomo, who apparently values consensus (as we all should)? I refer Nomo to the stricture above that "reverting good-faith actions of other editors may be disruptive." It is also terribly wasteful of the other editors' time. I am again returning the paragraph to a form that gives the result of these investigations—rather than their inception—at the top of the paragraph, and I invite any other editors to edit the paragraph accordingly and to correct any errors, if there are any. Just reverting won't solve anything. Yours, GeorgeLouis (talk) 05:03, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry to see that Nomo reverted back to the previous version, which did not have consensus. As I told him on his Talk Page, nothing has been taken out of this section. It has the same information, just presented with the result at the top, and not at the bottom. What could be wrong with that? GeorgeLouis (talk) 12:03, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, it was the proposed changes to the article that did not have consensus. The version that Nomo reverted from was even worse than the examples provided at the outset of this discussion; i.e. there was already a problem with omitting key details and over-reliance on the Orlando sentinel article, which put forth a superficial interpretation of the events that did not gibe with the other sources, and this problem was then compounded by including in the text a second summary based on the Sentinel article (one at the beginning of the paragraph and another at the end). Seems rather tendentious for George to make such a change unilaterally, when reasonable objections had already been raised, and then claim that reverting the lone supporter for the change. Rhode Island Red (talk) 23:17, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

If anybody believes something was left out, I suggest he or she simply edit the version which I supplied, with the most important information at the top. There is no sense in just reverting to a previous version, with the dénouement buried at the bottom, because there is going to be no consensus on that. On the other hand, any well-sourced amendment to the inverted-pyramid version might very well result in consensus, if they are simply added to the Article instead of just being talked about on the Talk Page. GeorgeLouis (talk) 06:22, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

The claim that they were 'cleared' of wrongdoing is not supported by the majority of reliable sources. If it were, it probably would be the most important statement in the paragraph, and so would (under your interpretation) belong at the top of the paragraph. Since it isn't true or reported by any WP:RS other than (possibly) the Orlando Sentinal, it shouldn't be at the top. Perhaps chronological is the way to go. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:04, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

To be fair, many of the sources are opinion pieces that are pretty open about not presenting a well rounded view of VanderSloot. One way or another, I doubt that cases from the 1990s are still pending. I believe that the paragraph should be more forward about the fact that these are all 15+ year old allegations. Andrew (talk) 05:55, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Hats off to Arthur Rubin for at least looking at the sources within the article, many of which, as Andrew noted, are not Reliable at all. In fact, the Mother Jones piece had to be refashioned upon complaints from Melaleuca, with copious corrections made in the Internet version. The burden of proof in WP is upon the editor who inserts the information, not upon he or she who removes it. Some of these sources predated the "clearance" as announced by the Orlando Sentinel, so of course they are only reporting on the charges, not the results (because they weren't available then). I suggest the whole paragraph be taken out as violative of WP:BLP strictures. It really gives WP:Undue weight to these rather ancient bureaucratic snufflings-about. It is simply one more stroke in a painting of VDS determined to make him look like an evil creep. GeorgeLouis (talk) 06:28, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

To take your last point, first, Melaleuca, Inc. redirects here, so something that should normally be in that article should be in this one.

Although we can't use this analysis as being WP:OR, they were not cleared. After the settlement agreement, the goverments decided not to prosecute (further). That's not "cleared". It might be misleading if all the other sources were before this alleged "clearance", but I think it would be fair to include the paragraph, and, at the end, state that the Orlando Sentinal article declares that they were cleared. I'm not sure if it should be chronological or an "inverted pyramid", leaving the settlement as the most important act. (I'm using some sources not in the article to verify, although I'm not sure those sources are reliable. For that matter, I'm not sure the Sentinal article is reliable. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 06:56, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Good work. I have to agree about using the word "cleared." Here's another version that might do the job. Can we kick this one around for a while?

In the 1990s, Melaleuca was publicly reported to be under investigation three times by state and federal regulators. In 1991 Michigan state regulators "cleared the company's marketing plan" of any violation of state law after Melaleuca had received a cease-and-desist order alleging the firm had broken Michigan’s anti–pyramid-scheme laws. The company signed an assurance of voluntary compliance with Michigan, agreeing to "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid.” In 1992, Melaleuca signed an assurance of voluntary compliance with Idaho wherein state officials explained that they “had no grounds to take enforcement action against Melaleuca under Idaho law,” but Melaleuca agreed to "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid.” According to Adam Yeomans of the Orlando Sentinel, Idaho officials "cleared the company's marketing plan and blamed 'renegade' distributors for any problems." According to Yeomans, writing in September 1992, the Food and Drug Administration "accused Melaleuca of deceiving consumers about some of its supplements." VanderSloot said he would cooperate with the probe and that a "couple dozen" distributors who broke the rules had been fired.

GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:27, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Undue Weight on Melaleuca Details

Noticed that the section on Melaleuca has been expanded considerably (see original versus new version), but the newly added detail includes non-essential fluff that seems inappropriate for a BLP (e.g., the blurb about the Idaho Psychological Association). Remember that the article is about VanderSloot, not Melaleuca, so the entry should be limited to the most critical details as summarized by reliable secondary sources who have written about VanderSloot. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:03, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Reasonable point. But there is serious disagreement as to what the "most critical details" are. (And not just by Collect and GeorgeLouis.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:47, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. It would be nice if agreement could be reached as to what is most pertinent. I think that relying mainly on sources that have written extensive biographical/bacground information about VanderSloot and included details about Melaleuca in that context would be a reasonable approach to take. Mention of the Idaho Psyc Assn seems especially fluffy. I also think that the newly added subtitles in that section were rather arbitrary and don't function well. For example, the section that deals with the early roots of the business (Inception) includes details about patents in 2004 and the company's current product offerings, which have nothing to do with the company's early roots. Similarly, the discussion of the Idaho/Michigan AG pyramid scheme investigations pertains to the business model but is included in the marketing section. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:34, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I am very happy to make the changes suggested by RIR and hope to continue such content cooperation in the future. Go here for the diff. GeorgeLouis (talk) 14:06, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I didn't suggest any specific changes; what I suggested was that we reach a prior agreement here on the Talk page. The changes you made do not negate the problems and in fact introduce new ones. The section "Inception" no has only one line in it, so it doesn't warrant a separate section. Secondly, a new section was created called "Patents" which has very little if any direct connection to VanderSloot and is given WP:UNDUE. Lastly, the newly created section called "Consumer Direct Marketing" gives undue weight to a term that has no real meaning -- it's a marketing term used by Melaleuca and by giving it undue weight, it obscures the fact that the company's business model is multi-level marketing. We have discussed this terminology issue at length already and the problems were clearly spelled out. It seems like you are simply ignoring those discussions, but in case you simply forgot or need a refresher, let me know and I will be glad to provide the links for you. So let's go back to the drawing board and propose changes here with the intent of achieving some kind of consensus. Rhode Island Red (talk) 18:07, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

For now, until the matter gets resolved, I've removed the arbitrary/confusing subheads pending further discussion as to what would be appropriate. The subhead you created called "Government Investigations" might be appropriate for inclusion but then again doing so might also give undue weight -- that's something we should consider further. Let's here some proposals. Rhode Island Red (talk) 18:17, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

One of the awards that you removed was given to VanderSloot by the Idaho first lady. The way I wrote it didn't mention any connection to VanderSloot, though, so I'll rewrite it. Andrew (talk) 17:28, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Which edit are you referring to Andrewman? Rhode Island Red (talk) 18:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Hm. Well, I tried. GeorgeLouis (talk) 03:27, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Achieving consensus means that the content actually has to be discussed and the issues have to be worked out. You're free to punt if you so choose. Rhode Island Red (talk) 04:29, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

In the discussion above, it was said by Rhode Island Red that:

the section that deals with the early roots of the business (Inception) includes details about patents in 2004 and the company's current product offerings, which have nothing to do with the company's early roots. Similarly, the discussion of the Idaho/Michigan AG pyramid scheme investigations pertains to the business model but is included in the marketing section.

Therefore I made some changes to the Article text that addressed those problems (simply a new subsection for the Patents), and some changes in the titles of the subheaders. These changes were reverted with the comments "this was not what I had suggested at all and the edits are problematic for various reasons as outlined on Talk -- proposals for changes can be discussed further there" and "keeping this in one section w/o confusing/arbitrary subheads -- see Talk‬"

The question is: Should the version on the right-hand side of http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Frank_L._VanderSloot&diff=prev&oldid=524548960 be used in Misplaced Pages (with further editing as needed), or should the older section on the left-hand side be used? Of course I prefer the newer version, on the right-hand side. GeorgeLouis (talk) 15:22, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Direct Selling Association

Opening up discussion here at the request of Rhode Island Red as to whether the Direct Selling Association should be described in this article as (1) "a trade association that engages in public relations and lobbying efforts on behalf of the multi-level marketing industry, or (2) "a trade association that engages in public relations and lobbying efforts on behalf of its members," or (3) "a trade association." I favor No. 3 as short and to the point, but I can go with No. 2. The first choice is definitely a non-starter because the Direct Selling Association, according to its Misplaced Pages Article, has members that do not engage in multilevel marketing. Note also that Rhode Island Red was a heavy contributor to the DSA article in Misplaced Pages, so I assume he knows something about how it works. Please comment below so we can get some idea of consensus. Thank you. GeorgeLouis (talk) 14:46, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I prefer 3 because the source does not mention support 1. The article already points out that the subject is involved in MSM. Direct sales is not necessarily MSM - think of door-to-door encyclopedia and vacuum cleaner sales. TFD (talk) 05:51, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

According to the DSA PDF 98.7% of member sellers utilize multilevel marketing. So while it is true that some members of the DSA do not use MLM, they are in the very small minority. Grayfell (talk) 07:04, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

You are correct on this. Anything more verges on "editorial commentary in Misplaced Pages's voice" aka SYNTH. Number 2 is a "d'oh" type wording - verging on the super-obvious (ever hear of a trade association which has nothing to do with its members and does nothing as well?) Collect (talk) 14:11, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Making the fix per quick consensus here. Of course consensus can change. GeorgeLouis (talk) 14:53, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

There wasn't a consensus for this change, so you should just as quickly undo it. It is covered under WP:BTW. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:36, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Of course we don't go into detail like RIR wants. I am glad I don't edit this article, I would have shot myself eons ago. Good luck. --Malerooster (talk) 15:01, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

You say "of course we don't..." as though it's some self-evident truth. It's not. WP:BTW makes it clear that it is preferable to include some descriptive information rather than merely relying on the hyperlink alone. It would be best if comments had at least some basis in WP policy rather than just being speculative personal opinion. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, the details can be found at Direct Selling Association. Thanks for commenting. It is nice to have new names here. GeorgeLouis (talk) 15:28, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Hiatus

I have stopped editing this article and will resume at 12:01 p.m. PST, my local time, on December 27, 2012, but I will continue to monitor and make suggestions on the Talk Page as well as the RFC pages. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 12:20, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Judging by these edits, the hiatus ended today. The pledge to abstain barely lasted 2 weeks. Rhode Island Red (talk) 22:53, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

What you cited are of course not edits. Have a happy holiday season. GeorgeLouis (talk) 22:56, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Dean Miller sentence in LGBT section

I deleted this sentence: "Post Register editor Dean Miller, however, wrote later that Zuckerman's sexual orientation had been known only by Zuckerman's family and a few of his close friends and colleagues." last week and my change was reverted. I deleted it for the following reasons:

• The word "however" is not encyclopedic in this case.
• Miller published this article in 2006, yet the sentence implies that he wrote it "later" than a 2012 statement by VanderSloot in the preceding sentence.
• If written in 2006, why not simply include Miller in the first sentence in the paragraph, along with Maddow and Greenwald?

I request that this sentence be deleted again. If not, come to some consensus on editing it so that it is at least neutral and chronological.HtownCat (talk) 00:09, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I remember it happening, but can't remember the reason given for the reversion. Do you have a diff, or a date? GeorgeLouis (talk) 07:03, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

I don’t see any problem with the use of “however”. The point about the use of “later” is technically valid but it misses the larger issue – i.e., that several sources – respected journalists and other organizations, as well as Zuckerman himself – said that it was not public knowledge that the reporter was gay. VanderSloot is the only one who alleged otherwise, and he did so (via a written statement to the Statesman) using hearsay; he is not a journalist or a news organization, and he has no reputability as a source to comment as to whether or not Zuckerman’s being gay was publicly known. Furthermore, his account clearly does not jibe with what the other sources wrote.

The gist of those sources was that Vandersloot (a) made the accusation that the reporter’s being gay caused him to write a biased series of articles; (b) that his attack of the articles’ integrity was meritless and ill-informed; (c) that he outed Zuckerman; and (d) that his attack was nothing more than an ad hominem and consistent with his previous history of actions that were widely regarded as antigay. The reporter’s work received multiple prestigious journalism awards, and VanderSloot’s allegation that the reporting was biased falls flat on these and other grounds as detailed in the Neiman Reports article.

Ultimately, VanderSloot’s written statement should not be cited as a source to judge whether his own actions constituted outing Zuckerman. Clearly, the consensus is that he did. It might be OK to simply say he denied it, but it’s not OK to end the story there and ignore the fact that the basis for his denial was negated.

So we have a couple of options. One is to omit VanderSloot’s denial altogether, in which case the last sentence referring to Dean Miller would be unnecessary. The other option is to briefly mention only that VanderSloot denied that he outed Zuckerman and then include commentaries indicating that was not in fact the case.

The current version reads:

“VanderSloot denied the charge, saying that had attempted to defend Zuckerman's motives, that Zuckerman had already posted his sexual orientation on a public website, and that a local radio show and the community had been discussing the fact; Post Register editor Dean Miller, however, wrote later that Zuckerman's sexual orientation had been known only by Zuckerman's family and a few of his close friends and colleagues.

If not option 1, then a revision along these lines (option 2) would be suitable:

“VanderSloot denied the allegation, however, Zuckerman’s sexual orientation was known only by his family and a few of his close friends and colleagues, according to Post Register editor Dean Miller and Zuckerman himself.”

or

"VanderSloot denied the charge, however, Post Register editor Dean Miller reported that Zuckerman's sexual orientation had been known only by Zuckerman's family and a few of his close friends and colleagues, and in a May 2012 TV interview, Zuckerman disputed VanderSloot’s contention."

For reference purposes, here are some of the relevant excerpts that summarize the key details:

• "In response to this six-part exposé — which won the Scripps Howard Award for Distinguished Service to the First Amendment – VanderSloot went on a virtual jihad against the newspaper and the principal reporter who exposed the scandal, Peter Zuckerman. VanderSloot bought numerous full-page newspaper ads in The Post Register that attacked the story and explicitly identified the reporter, Zuckerman, as “a homosexual” (Zuckerman had previously written for a small Florida paper about being gay when he lived in that state, but had kept his sexual orientation largely a secret since he moved to rural Idaho). Vandersloot’s full-page ad expressly described the “speculation” that Zuckerman’s homosexuality had made him hostile to the Scouts and LDS: “the Boy Scout’s position of not letting gay men be Scout Leaders, and the LDS Church’s position that marriage should be between a man and a woman may have caused Zuckerman to attack the scouts and the LDS Church through his journalism.” While the ad absurdly sought to repudiate the very “speculation” about Zuckerman which it had just amplified (“We think it would be very unfair for anyone to conclude that is what is behind Zuckerman’s motives”), the predictable damage was done. Zuckerman’s editor, Dean Miller, explained: “Our reporter, Peter Zuckerman, was not ‘out’ to anyone but family, a few colleagues at the paper (including me), and his close friends”; but after VanderSloot outed him to his community in that ad, “strangers started ringing Peter’s doorbell at midnight. His partner of five years was fired from his job.”

• "Our reporter, Peter Zuckerman, was not "out" to anyone but family, a few colleagues at the paper (including me), and his close friends. When the magnitude of the story became evident, I vetted him thoroughly, making sure he had not been active in the debate over gay scouts and had not been kicked out of a troop.

Peter's personal life and the series itself went under the microscope in June when a local multimillionaire, Frank VanderSloot, began buying full-page critical ads in our Sunday paper. He devoted several paragraphs to establishing that Zuckerman is gay. He noted the Mormon Church opposes gay marriage and that the Boy Scouts no longer allow gay men to lead troops, but briefly added: "We think it would be very unfair for anyone to conclude that is what is behind Zuckerman's motives."

Strangers started ringing Peter's doorbell at midnight. His partner of five years was fired from his job. Despite the harassment, Peter kept coming to work and chasing down leads on other pedophiles in the Grand Teton Council, while continuing to cover his courts and cops beat. I spoke at his church one Sunday and meant it when I said that I hope my son grows into as much of a man as Peter had.

The local Boy Scout executive had declared Stowell was the only child molester he'd discovered in the Grand Teton Council. But by midsummer, the paper was hunting for documentation on a dozen leaders whom victims and their families had identified to us as pedophiles. Meanwhile, the Post Register kept on printing VanderSloot's ads, even when they included serious mischaracterizations, errors of fact, and glaring omissions, such as the fact that the Boy Scouts' national staffer in charge of youth protection had just pleaded guilty to trading in child pornography. VanderSloot said his ads, which he labeled "The Community Page," were intended to bolster people who were too scared of the mighty Post Register to speak up...Peter Zuckerman, in particular, persevered despite repeated threats that were inflamed by a carefully orchestrated ad hominem attack on him and his work.

• "VanderSloot took out a full-page newspaper ad that challenged the stories and said the reporter who wrote them was a homosexual. The reporter, Peter Zuckerman, no longer with the newspaper, recently appeared on the Rachel Maddow show on MSNBC to say that only a few people knew he was gay before the ad ran, that he received threats afterward and that his boyfriend lost his job. VanderSloot recently put out a written statement saying it was public knowledge that Zuckerman was gay, that Zuckerman had written it on a website, and that a local radio show had been “abuzz for several weeks” about his sexual orientation."

• “when they published that ad about that young reporter at that Idaho newspaper and went on at length about that young reporter being gay while they were attacking' him for being biased, they say that was not outing him as we described it in our broadcast because of the fact that the reporter is gay had previously been discussed on an Idaho radio station and in a blog post that he had previously written...Frank VanderSloot in all likelihood, was the person breaking the news about this young man's sexual orientation, by printing it in that paper in that ad.

ZUCKERMAN: There was a tremendous impact on me both personally and professionally. Personally, it was really hard when my boyfriend, at the time, came home and said, 1 don't have my job anymore. They know I'm gay. They know about my relationship with you. They don't want me there anymore" And it was really hard for him. He actually got sick soon afterwards and was in bed for a month. I didn't know how we were going to pay the bills. It was really hard when people started leaving notes on my doorstep, when somebody kept calling in the middle of the night threatening to rape me with his handgun. That was - I mean, that was really terrible. And then professionally, it became much harder to do my job because, yes, Idaho Falls was buzzing about my sexual orientation. And, you know, when I tried to talk to people, they would say things like, "Oh, I can't talk to you. You're a homosexual. We don't associate with that"

MADDOW: Did all of this happen because you were being discussed on a local radio show or did this happen not until your name appeared on the ad?

ZUCKERMAN: I absolutely dispute that contention. Idaho Falls Post Register" was the place I worked. It was my colleagues I worked with, II was the people on my beat. Yes, a handful of people knew I'm gay. My boyfriend knew I was gay. My parents and boss knew I was gay. My boss knew I’m gay. But most -- I hadn’t told anybody on my beat that fm gay and for good reason, because I was warned they wouldn't talk to me. And I feel like the worse part isn't so much that I was harassed, but was that this was really important story that needed to get out there. This was a story about child molesters in the boy scouts. It was about trying to protect kids from these kind of pedophiles. And by making it so hard for me to gather information, it actually really limited the story. There’s a lot more to that story that I was not able to get. And this was a major contributor for one of reasons I couldn't get it.”

• "Rachel Maddow last week...exposed VanderSloot’s involvement in outing an Idaho reporter...“VanderSloot ran a full-page ad closely resembling a news story in length and formatting in which he spoke against Zuckerman and also revealed his status as a gay man. During his time on “The Rachel Maddow Show,” Zuckerman explained that the ad had “a tremendous impact,” including widespread discrimination on the part of members of the small and conservative community in which he and his partner lived…In response to the segment, VanderSloot and his attorneys attempted to silence Maddow on the subject, requesting that the story be removed from the web and then protesting when Maddow publicized their request on the air…The MSNBC host went on to explain that VanderSloot claims he did not “out” Zuckerman with his ad; yet not long after Maddow’s segment with Zuckerman, the ad quietly disappeared from Melaleuca, Inc.’s ad archives.”

• "When a local reporter in Idaho Falls reported on the cover-up of child molestation incidents by the Boy Scouts and local Mormon church members, VanderSloot led a personal crusade against the reporter and outed him as gay. VanderSloot claimed that “the Boy Scout’s position of not letting gay men be scout leaders, and the LDS Church’s position that marriage should be between a man and a woman may have caused to attack the scouts and the LDS Church through his journalism.” The reporter later won the Scripps Howard Award for Distinguished Service to the First Amendment for his reporting." (unsigned content posted by Rhode Island Red)

I've posted a revision; the source I've used is just the bare url, perhaps someone else could give a proper ref entry. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:26, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

A record. Collect (talk) 16:17, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

I think I see what HtownCat is driving at: He or she thinks that including Miller in the first sentence (as has already been done) is sufficient for this paragraph, which already goes at great length into this issue. I tend to agree, citing WP:Weight. I mean, considering this entire section is based to a great part on really dubious Sources about an event that takes up a fraction of VDS's life story, what could be the harm to the encyclopedia or the reader's understanding of the man to omit it? I would consent to its removal. GeorgeLouis (talk) 17:36, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

That's the first time I've ever heard anyone cite "lack of harm to WP" as a justification for deleting properly sourced content from an article. The discussion has progressed quite a bit since HTownCat raised his concern about chronology, and Nomo has since made appropriate revisions to address that concern. HTownCat mentioned nothing about WP:UNDUE nor does it apply in this case. Rhode Island Red (talk) 19:16, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

It's like any kind of editing. You don't have to say the same thing twice. GeorgeLouis (talk) 04:13, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Reference Verification for Nov 25 Edits

I was unable to verify most of the references added by Andrewman327 in this edit. At least four of the sources could not be identified via Google, or via 2 major news libraries:

• Governor Mitt Romney Announces National Finance Chairs And Co-Chairs
• Melaleuca Inc., the producer of cosmetics, household
• New Jersey company buys Snake River Cheese
• Wisconsin company and Snake River Cheese complete negotiations
• Beatrice will remain at cheese plant until year's end

Also a reference to an un-refereed press release was added. Since there are other sources already cited to back up the text in question, it should be deleted. Similarly, the Taxation Task Force section relies on a Business Wire press release; it would require a reliable secondary source.

Lastly, several citations have been added to articles published by sources that are not available online (eg, the Idaho Business Review, which is a firewall protected source and accessible only to paid subscribers). In all such instances, the complete paragraphs containing the supporting text should be posted here for verification purposes. Statements that are not verified should be removed. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:21, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages only requires that they be verifiable -- many paywalled sources are used in articles, and unless you wish to assert a specific misuse of the source, your cavil fails here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

It was a simple request to facilitate verification, not an accusation of wrongdoing. Andrewman327 added the citations to these offline sources, so it should be a simple matter for him to provide excerpts from the articles for verification purposes. We've done so several times in the past, and making such a request is innocuous. WP:OFFLINE states:

"Second, use the quote= parameter within those citation templates to provide some context for the reference. This is especially important when using the off-line source to support a fact that might be controversial or is likely to be challenged. Sometimes, the use of an offline source will be challenged."

I also refer you to the following: "Where a source is difficult to verify, or in a language other than English, many editors appreciate the courtesy of supplying the relevant paragraph and ensuring it can be read by English language readers."

Furthermore, as I said already, there is a more fundamental with several of the citations, which could not be located at all, and in those cases, it's not simply a paywall issue; it's a core WP:VER issue. There was no need to label such a simple straightforward request as a "cavil"; please try to be civil and AGF. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:51, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Using Nexis, I was able to find all except "Melaleuca Inc., the producer of cosmetics, household" -- which is strange given that it is indicated as an AP article. Note that I haven't read the articles -- I'm only saying they exist (with the exception as noted). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:01, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Neither of the articles Rhode Island Red quoted are Misplaced Pages policies. WP:PAYWALL is the only official policy on the matter: "Other people should in principle be able to check that material in a Misplaced Pages article has been published by a reliable source. This implies nothing about ease of access to sources: some online sources may require payment, while some print sources may only be available in university libraries. WikiProject Resource Exchange may be able to help obtain source material."

I pulled a number of the sources from the library, so I don't actually have day-to-day access. Besides, it's not surprising that you can't find some of the sources; old articles from local newspapers aren't normally indexed by the databases you referenced.Andrew (talk) 16:44, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Inclusion of full quote

I am bringing this up again because I feel that this sentence in LGBT Issues is misleading: "One of the advertisements stated that "the Boy Scout’s position of not letting gay men be scout leaders, and the LDS Church’s position that marriage should be between a man and a woman may have caused Zuckerman to attack the scouts and the LDS Church through his journalism.""

Here is the full quote from the advertisement, which is source #123: "Much has been said on a local radio station and throughout the community, speculating that the Boy Scout’s position of not letting gay men be Scout Leaders, and the LDS Church’s position that marriage should be between a man and a woman may have caused Zuckerman to attack the scouts and the LDS Church through his journalism. We think it would be very unfair for anyone to conclude that is what is behind Zuckerman’s motives."

When the quote is taken out of context, it appears that VanderSloot is accusing Zuckerman of attacking the scouts/LDS because he is gay, when in fact he is asking the community not to assume Zuckerman's motives. I added just the beginning of the sentence of this quote ("Much has been said" through "speculating that") and was reverted by Rhode Island Red because that part of the quote wasn't in the cited sources. However, it is in source #123, which is being used there.

I understand that the point of this quote is to illustrate the clash between VanderSloot and Zuckerman, but I think we should be able to do that without misrepresentation. HtownCat (talk) 20:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

The quote included is the exact verbatim quote that was used by the sources that discussed the issue. You can't simply re-factor their quote. You are in fact arguing in favor of misrepresentation. This fundamental flaw with the proposed revision to the quote has been explained several times already. Your interpretation of VanderSloot's intentions ("asking the community not to assume Zuckerman's motives") is very much at odds with the conclusions of the cited sources. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:53, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify HTownCat's statement—let me see if I have this right. These are the sources now found in the section to which HTownCat refers:

• This source links to an opinion piece by commentator Glenn Greenwald of Salon:

Note 49: Greenwald, Glenn (February 17, 2012). "Billionaire Romney donor uses threats to silence critics". Salon. Retrieved September 16, 2012.

http://www.salon.com/2012/02/17/billionaire_romney_donor_uses_threats_to_silence_critics/

• The following source is the link to the advertisement itself:

Note 123: Vandersloot, Frank. "Responsible Journalism or Misleading Propaganda?". The Community Page. Retrieved September 9, 2012.

http://media.salon.com/media/pdf/2005_0605_ResponsibleJournalism.pdf

• This source is a press release from the Human Rights campaign:

Note 128: "HRC Calls on Romney Campaign to Fire Virulently Anti-Gay National Finance Chair". Human Rights Campaign. March 8, 2012. Retrieved October 4, 2012 http://www.hrc.org/press-releases/entry/hrc-calls-on-romney-campaign-to-fire-virulently-anti-gay-national-finance-c

• This is the diff in which the following phrase was removed "Much has been said on a local radio station and throughout the community, speculating that":

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Frank_L._VanderSloot&diff=524398047&oldid=524397837, with the Edit Summary " inappropriate addition -- that was not the quote provided in the sources cited) { This is the phrase that HTownCat wants to put back into the article.}

I hope the above is a fair recapitulation of the sources in this paragraph, as well as a pointer to the diff. GeorgeLouis (talk) 21:46, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, GeorgeLouis, you have that correct. So in sum, we have two biased sources and the ad itself, which does indeed include the full quote. HtownCat (talk) 23:03, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

HtownCat, what exactly is the nature of the bias in the sources you are describing as biased? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 23:51, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to jump in here, but here is one response to Nomo's question. Perhaps HTownCat has another one:

• Note 49: Greenwald, Glenn (February 17, 2012). "Billionaire Romney donor uses threats to silence critics". Salon. Retrieved September 16, 2012. http://www.salon.com/2012/02/17/billionaire_romney_donor_uses_threats_to_silence_critics/. It's an opinion piece by a commentator, not solid reporting (which Greenwald has done in the past, but not here).

• Note 128: "HRC Calls on Romney Campaign to Fire Virulently Anti-Gay National Finance Chair". Human Rights Campaign. March 8, 2012. http://www.hrc.org/press-releases/entry/hrc-calls-on-romney-campaign-to-fire-virulently-anti-gay-national-finance- It's a P.R. release by an organization, not even pretending to be independent reportage.

GeorgeLouis (talk) 02:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

In regard to RIR's comment farther up, the sources cited in the sentence are not Reliable, and the additional "source" that RIR cited, the San Diego LGBT Weekly, well, the website itself is not Notable enough to have a Misplaced Pages entry, and the article by Ruth Fine is seriously deficient—she based her piece on the press release from the Human Rights Campaign, and she seemed to have made absolutely no attempt to get VanderSloot's side of the story. Can't very well call that a WP:Reliable source. GeorgeLouis (talk) 02:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid you seem not to have understood my question. I asked: what is the nature of the bias in the sourced described as biased? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:29, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Mea culpa. I jumped in when I should have let HTownCat respond. Lo siento mucho. GeorgeLouis (talk) 08:22, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

"Bias" is not needed to note that the "reliable sources" have taken the quote out of context, and hence shouldn't be used. I'll let HTownCat respond as to "bias", but the clear contextual error is sufficient that we should not use those sources for (or to interpret) that comment. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:49, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

The bias of the Salon article is that it is an anti-Romney political commentary, and the HRC press release cites the Salon article as its source of information. However, I agree with Arthur Rubin that the political nature of these sources is secondary to the fact that the quote is out of context in them. HtownCat (talk) 19:02, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Several sources (including Zuckerman himself) did in fact comment on VanderSloot’s denial of responsibility for the outing, as outlined in my previous comment. It was a very odd backhanded pseudo-denial. By all indications, Zuckerman’s orientation was not publicly known despite what VanderSloot claimed, and the sources indicate that if there was any talk around town about town about Zuckerman’s orientation, it seemed to have arisen from VanderSloot’s ad. So what we have are multiple sources saying that Zuckerman’s orientation was not publicly known, and one single source – VanderSloot – arguing otherwise. No reporters ever confirmed VanderSloot’s assertion; but there were several that disputed it. VanderSloot’s self-published quote, a primary source has, no inherent notability, but rather the notability is established by the secondary sources that analyzed it and commented on it (Greenwald and HRC for example), and they did not include the preamble to the quote. They didn't take the quote out of context per se, they merely focused on the significant part of the quote that in effect outed Zuckerman.

VanderSloot’s preamble to the quote "Much has been said on a local radio station and throughout the community, speculating that…” strikes me as akin to something along the lines of “I’m not saying that all (insert name of minority group X) are lazy criminals, but…” So I'm not suprised that the sources did not include it. More importantly, there is no evidence that the local radio station or community had been talking about Zuckerman. Maddow (and LGBT Weekly) addressed this point directly and noted that if the community has been talking about Zuckerman's orientation, as VanderSloot alleged, it was likely because of VanderSloot’s ad.

So how should all of this be taken into consideration? Which is the most critical issue here: that sources did not include the first part of VanderSloot's quote or that undue weight would be given to a portion of a self-published quote from VanderSloot based on an unconfirmed (and largely discounted) personal assertion. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I found a source written by Zuckerman that states that he was being harassed by the community before his series of articles was published. It does not mention VanderSloot, nor does it answer your questions about undue weight, but here it is for consideration in this matter: http://web.archive.org/web/20110101234815/http:/www.nlgja.org/publications/articles/zuckerman_beat.htm. HtownCat (talk) 19:02, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I can't believe an editor here is still insisting that commentator Greenwald and special-interest group Human Rights Campaign are "sources." They are not; they are nothing more than people sneezing upwind on a blustery day, so it doesn't matter whether the particular phrase that HtownCat wants to include is cited by them or not. You might as well cite Joe Sixpak from the local barber shop. I support HtownCat's re-addition of this phrase to the article as a small first step in making it more Neutral as to VDS's posture in this very sorry outing of a journalist, which, by the way, we should all decry. GeorgeLouis (talk) 20:07, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Which policy is it that you are referring to? Is there a policy that says you can attribute a quote to a source that the source did not in fact quote? Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:41, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

We should not use a quote clearly taken out of context when a full quote is available. See also Quote mining on this topic. Misplaced Pages:Identifying_reliable_sources#Quotations states explicitly:

The accuracy of quoted material is paramount and the accuracy of quotations from living persons is especially sensitive. To ensure accuracy, the text of quoted material is best taken from (and cited to) the original source being quoted.

In the case at hand - the best source for a quote is a source which gives the full quote. WP:MOS states specifically:

Legitimate omissions include extraneous, irrelevant, or parenthetical words, and unintelligible speech (umm, and hmm). Do not omit text where doing so would remove important context or alter the meaning of the text.

Clearly where a full quotation shows such elisions, Misplaced Pages policy requires the correct quotation. Collect (talk) 17:19, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

The policy states "any analysis or interpretation of the quoted material, however, should rely on a secondary source", which is what would have to be done here. VanderSloot's quote was essentially ridiculed as being a backhanded attempt at outing Zimmerman while insincerely pretending to defend him. So like I said before, if the full quote is included, then it should be accompanied by the corresponding analyses from the secondary sources that commented on it. How would you propose to accomplish that?

And what you aver you 'know is not what goes into BLPs - we only use the reliable sources, and the fact you "know" VanderSloot did not mean what he said is absolutely improper for making any edit contrary to guidelines and policies. And your insistence on including "analyses" would likely violate NPOV from the get-go. Cheers -- now go off and give the two versions at WP:NPOV/N and WP:BLP/N and see if you can get others to agree with your "interesting" view of what Misplaced Pages's purpose is. Collect (talk) 18:14, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I can't make heads or tails out of your post, except that it seems to indicate you sailed right past the part of the policy you referred me to, which says "any analysis or interpretation of the quoted material, however, should rely on a secondary source". The secondary sources exist and their commentaries were excerpted on this very page.

I do not know how the hell I could make the rules any clearer. Misplaced Pages does not support use of quotes out of context in order to prove that an editor knows more than the reliable sources state in black and white Your desire to use an out-of-context quote with "analysis" by one side only is not how WP:NPOV works. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:57, 7 December 2012 (UTC) Collect (talk) 21:57, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Nor does it comport with NPOV to include here a quote in a way that gives an impression at odds with how secondary sources have portrayed the quote. Perhaps it does make sense to include the full quote, so as "not to take it out of context". But we would then need, in keeping with NPOV, to use the other sources that indicate widely held perceptions regarding VS's views on homosexuality. In the big picture here, we need a section that fairly portrays VS's public actions in opposition to gay rights and gay activism, as portrayed in secondary sources. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:31, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

If we're going to have a section that says "He took out ads that said this" then we should accurately quote what the ads actually said as opposed to other sources' cropping of what they said. The section currently cites Salon, Mother Jones, LGBT Weekly, Rachel Maddow, and the HRC; I don't think it's in danger of not having enough voices critical of VanderSloot. Andrew (talk) 18:14, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Nomo's proposal is reasonable and addresses the issue head on. This is an either or situation. We either use the quote as it was provided by the secondary sources that discussed it, or we use the full quote and then include the commentary that explains the caveats with his statements. It's a perfectly reasonable proposal and exactly what I've been saying all along. This is not an issue of providing enough "critical voices" as Andrewman327 contends; it's simply about providing appropriate balanced context as reflected by the secondary sources. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:27, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

And any such "commentary" must be presented to comply with WP:NPOV as a non-negotiable policy. At this point, the entire LGBT section verges heavily on being of undue weight in a BLP. Collect (talk) 18:59, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I disagree with RIR. Only the second solution is satisfactory, subject to Collect's caveat. When reliable sources clearly take a quote out of context, we must either include the full quote or carefully state it as quoted in the reliable, but inaccurate, sources. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:50, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm OK with option 2. Just have to hammer out the appropriate text in response from the secondary sources. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:40, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

What additional text is necessary? It's already a pretty extensively covered part of his life.Andrew (talk) 17:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Quantify + other stuff

This article seems to have a number of weasel words, which I have marked with "Quantify" or some other request. I've identified seven places where an actual number should be used instead of a vague generality.

1. He has been a major financial contributor to Republican campaigns and paid for advertising in opposition to several Idaho Democratic political candidates. How many? Assuming we have good sources, it should be easy enough to count them.
2. His public stances on gay-rights issues have generated opposition from journalists, commentators, and gay-rights groups. How many? Assuming we have good sources, it should be easy enough to count them. Also, has he drawn any support for his stances from anybody? This sentence seems very one-sided.
3. VanderSloot hired a new research and development team whose work resulted in nine U.S. patents in its first 19 years, including a muscle relaxant and analgesic containing oil from the Melaleuca Alternifolia, and has subsequently received several more patents. How many more patents? Assuming we have good sources, it should be easy enough to count them. (I'm not really sure why this should be Notable anyway. Most companies like VanderSloot's receive patents.)
4. VanderSloot's stances on certain issues of interest to the gay community have drawn criticism from commentators and gay-rights advocates. How many issues? There were only two: He posted some billboards, and he ran an advertisement—or maybe more—in a newspaper. How much criticism? Did he receive support from other people and interest groups? Isn't this an example of WP:Undue weight? Also, VanderSloot's wife donated $100,000 to the Proposition 8 initiative to rescind gay marriage in California is a statement about her, not about him. This one should just be deleted.
5. In 2006, VanderSloot issued critical statements regarding a series of investigative articles by journalist Peter Zuckerman in the Idaho Falls Post Register about incidents of child molestation by a Boy Scout director in the Grand Teton Council. How many statements?
6. VanderSloot took out full-page advertisements in the Post Register in which he challenged aspects of Zuckerman's stories and devoted several paragraphs to establishing that Zuckerman was gay. How many advertisements. How many paragraphs? (I believe there was only one, but I could be wrong.)
7. Various sources said that VanderSloot's advertisement outed Zuckerman . . . . How many sources?

GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:44, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I disagree that there is a need for "quantification" of the sort indicated. If it is possible to be precise, fine; if not, no big deal. The sort of language indicated in George's post above is pretty normal. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:36, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree. This strikes me as disruptive tagging. If there is anything that truly needs to be counted, George could have simply counted it and added the number instead of tagging. However, most of the content specified does not need to be quantified at all, and demanding quantification seems rather pointless in most if not all of these instances. Furthermore, instead of putting the onus on other editors to address a problem that only you seem to see, propose a concrete solution George (i.e., make specific text proposals), or better yet, just fix it. Also, I don't see how this non-issue is serious enough to warrant you abrogating your pledge to abstain from editing for a month. Rhode Island Red (talk) 23:09, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Possible substitutions

No. 1. Replace "'He has been a major financial contributor to Republican campaigns and paid for advertising in opposition to several Idaho Democratic political candidates" with either of the following:

VanderSloot favored Democratic candidates for state office in 1994 and 2006, and in 2002 he donated $58,500 to campaigns favoring Republican candidates.

Or, for a more detailed version:

In Idaho state politics, VanderSloot favored Democrat Larry Echo Hawk for governor in 1994 and also endorsed Democrat Jackie Groves for state controller in 2006 (cite Popkey for both). In 2002 VanderSloot gave $35,000 to Republican Lawrence Wadsen's campaign for attorney-general, and he gave $16,500 to Concerned Citizens for Family Values, which ran a radio commercial against Keith Roark, the Democratic candidate (cite Popkey). He also donated $7,000 to Republican Governor Dirk Kempthorne's campaign in 2002 (cite AP story in the Spokesman Review).

GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:01, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

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