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MMA, part 1287

See also Misplaced Pages:ANI#MMA_AfD.27s above. I have just closed another disruptive AfD - Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/2012 in UFC events (3rd nomination). I have also noted at least one WP:POINT nominations for deletion (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/America's Next Top Model, Cycle 19) of articles edited by the few editors who are trying to uphold Misplaced Pages policy in the MMA area. I'd would suggest that after such a persistent campaign of WP:IDHT by a number of SPAs to turn the encyclopedia into an MMA results service it is probably time to say "enough". Black Kite (talk) 06:15, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

As an editor who has passively observed the MMA disputes that flare up on the boards every other day (it seems), I'm also of the mind that some unified solution should be adopted—it really has been quite "enough" at this point. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 06:48, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

As only tangently involved (MMA editors trying to change policy/guidelines to make such articles acceptable to which I've commented on), yes, this is far past the point of disruption. That said, the MMA ppl have brought up a good point that if the various individual event articles aren't considered notable, then why do we have articles like 2008 Food City 500, 2011 World Series of Poker results (note, 2011 World Series of Poker exists but is ok), and similar? There is an inconsistency here, and it might step from the larger idea that the various sports arena itself is a walled garden - by no means as great a degree as the MMA - but clearly with a larger allowance for topics and the like. At this point there needs to be a course of action that pulls any decision away from those involved with MMA or at least the troublemakers making such pointy AFD noms, and get to a resolve quickly, but making sure that solution applies uniformly to other sports-based articles. --MASEM (t) 14:13, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm guessing that we have articles like 2008 Food City 500 because no-one's got round to deleting or merging them yet. Yes, the solution should apply to all sports, but with well over 3 million articles stuff like that is always going to sneak through; it doesn't mean we should let it go though. Black Kite (talk) 18:57, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I'm fully aware that OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a bad argument, except that I recall seeing editors from the various sports (nonMMA) suggest the NASCAR articles are just fine but the MMA ones are a problem. This mirrors a similar discussion about the denial to include eSports (professional video game competitions) within NSPORT because "its not a sport". I do applaud most of the editors that are knee deep in sports, self-aware that sports coverage far outweighs most other contemporary topics and thus having restraint to what is summarized on WP, but there remains some aspects here of walled gardens that we can't sweep away by just closing down the MMA stuff, fairly. --MASEM (t) 23:42, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

There is a very subtle difference though, one that came out of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/2004 Estoril Open in that an annually repeated sports event is a little different (I am not saying I necessarily agree with that). Mtking 00:15, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

What's enormously unfortunate about this situation is it's somehow identified as an "MMA" issue when the exact same sets of pages exist all across the site and tend to be the rule for formatting rather than exception. The main difference here is that for various reasons the AfDs on this particular subject have been unusually successful. Simply contrast this with worse entries such as that, or that, or that, or that (the list is trivial to enumerate). When users who feel their area of interest is being singled out see their concerns dismissed by wiki-insiders, it creates a great deal of frustration with the process and thus the highly visible drama. Should the same exceptional deletions happen on any other part of wiki with a significant userbase, the consequences would hardly differ. The challenge to solving such a systemic dilemma is to studying how the system works rather than respond with the same natural instincts which is the hallmark of institutional failure. Agent00f (talk) 19:57, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

• There are some things that will always be the case in Misplaced Pages or in any similar project without centralized control and therefore without fixed enforceable rules:

1. within a field, the results at AfD will be inconsistent
2. between fields, the accepted emphasis will be inconsistent
3. everyone will think their own interests are being unfairly neglected

I accept this will happen even the areas of most concern to me, and though I continue to push gently for greater coverage of them, I will not forfeit whatever sympathy there is for my minority interests by making a nuisance of myself. DGG ( talk ) 00:36, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

My question, how come we have to continually deal with these many AfDs on MMA articles, more often than not with either a "keep" or "no consensus"(no consensus when there are 4-5 votes for deletion and dozens to keep, yet those all are discounted for one reason or another), yet whenever a much less notable event, like say for instance a soon to be cancelled show about modelling that has no lasting significance gets nominated for deletion, the result is always a "Speedy Keep" and the nominator gets scolded? After so many failed deletion attempts by the 1 main MMA deletionist here, shouldn't they too be scolded for continually nominating articles?AugustWest1980 (talk) 14:50, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

If there's significant element of randomness on wiki by design, then the implication is userbase interests here were specifically unlucky. With this understanding the org shouldn't be unduly alarmed that intrinsic variation produces outliers. IOW, when the stars align, page sets get wrecked and those who use them become displeased proportional to the wreckage. The connection between these last two is basic human psychology which is difficult to trivially amend. Agent00f (talk) 09:40, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

"I'd would suggest that after such a persistent campaign of WP:IDHT by a number of SPAs to turn the encyclopedia into an MMA results service it is probably time to say enough." What method would you recommend for getting rid of MMA fans? Portillo (talk) 03:46, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

• For those who cannot edit without being disruptive or incivil, then blocks and/or topic bans are clearly indicated; that's not even controversial. That doesn't just apply to MMA fans, but to any editor of Misplaced Pages. I merely bring the issue to ANI so that more eyes may be available. Black Kite (talk) 11:37, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

• Do you think there's a broad enough consensus about deleting the articles at hand that it could be made a CSD category? It's a brutal but effective approach.—Kww(talk) 11:48, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

• No, I don't believe so. Whilst some are clearly non-notable, others are on the fringes. Even the ones that are obviously non-notable have some sources, even if it's clear that they fail WP:NOT and WP:SPORTSEVENT. I think the main issue here isn't the articles (they can be dealt with in time) but the disruption that is spreading to other areas. Black Kite (talk) 11:52, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, and the AfDs end up like this - Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/UFC 145. I doubt if that's going to be closed as anything else but Keep, but that is effectively saying that "any sporting event that is mentioned in the newspapers is notable". Without going too much towards WP:WAX, that means you could effectively make a case for (as an example) all 1,760 professional soccer games that happen in England every year. Black Kite (talk) 11:56, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

• Agreed respective projects and fan bases are turning the Encyclopaedia into a sports newspaper. Mtking 20:23, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
• How is that any different from turning the Encyclopedia into a fan site for fashion television shows that have absolutely no lasting notability?AugustWest1980 (talk) 14:59, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

• Is Misplaced Pages running out of server space to the point where things that meet the WP:GNG aren't acceptable? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:42, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

• WP is not an indiscriminate collection of information. There is a reason that the sports notability guidelines don't consider regular games as part of a professional league series as notable just because they were played and reported on, and instead provide seasonal summaries. This is the solution that pro-MMA editors have been suggested to head towards but they fight to include every possible detail against global consensus for this type of information. --MASEM (t) 02:45, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

• What Masem said. Your average NFL or Premiership game, NASCAR race, major American college football or basketball match no doubt nukes your average UFC event for GNG-applicable coverage, and I'm sure that given the green light, there are any number of Manchester United or University of Nebraska supporters who would be positively eager to write articles on them all. If "routine sports coverage" is a valid excuse to shoot down an independent article for the next Celtics-Heat playoff match, it sure is heck a valid one to debar your average MMA event. Ravenswing 05:59, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

• and another one kept that is just like all the rest Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/UFC 21, it would appear that the MMA fan base has worn the other editors down ....... Mtking 10:52, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
• Or perhaps the other editors and moderators are simply tired of your crusade against MMA articles, realize the truth that these events are truly notable(we're still talking about them after a decade has passed), and that deleting them would weaken Misplaced Pages as a source of knowledge. I wonder how many people will be talking about the results of ANTM #19 in over a decade, yet you consider them to have lasting notability? Such bias proves you simply have an agenda to scrub WP of MMA articles.AugustWest1980 (talk) 14:57, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

<outdent> I'm not sure if this belongs here, but there is another MMA discussion going on over at Talk:List of professional sports leagues regarding whether they qualify as a league or not, which has been prompted most likely by the same circumstances regarding all the MMA AFDs. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 02:06, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

What's quite interesting here is that an event card as set of ~10 distinct and separate contests of 15-25min regulation time was mentioned numerous times in the past, yet critics continue to IDHT this basic reality. Each event page is already a collection of individual "games", and direct comparison of notability to X vs Y competitions would be a separate entry for each contest (ie 10 pages for each card). Agent00f (talk) 23:29, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I will observer that a solution was previously on the table (several times in fact) regarding how to move forward without having to invoke AN/I or AN every single time however the filibustering, polite disruption, point-making, IDHT, and outright obtuseness has been a (perceived) hallmark of the enthusiast community. A previous discussion to endorse general sanctions across the MMA article (and project spaces) had atrophied due to lack of commitment. It is my understanding that the Administrator Corps does not feel that the toolset they have does not endorse actions with respect to these users, therefore there are 2 solutions. First is to open a new discussion on AN regarding authorization of General Sanctions across the MMA article and project spaces. The second is to open an Arbcom case and get a set of discretionary sanctions applied to the MMA article and project spaces. As I'm immensely involved (and any proposal by me would be accused of being part of the cabal to destroy MMA on Misplaced Pages) I am not an appropriate user to move forward with either proposal. Hasteur (talk) 12:27, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

What? You pretend to speak for the entirety of the Wikicommunity yet in reality it's you, MtKing, Ravenswing, etc. The exact same editors take part in these frivolous AfDs, the core group of 4-5 deletionists and the hordes of angry MMA fans who tire of this coordinated plan to ruin MMA on Misplaced Pages. Perhaps the Wikicommunity and administrators in particular don't agree with your suggestion of sanctions on MMA articles, hence none being applied.AugustWest1980 (talk) 14:32, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Please strike your personal attack above. In no way was your response appropriate to my informing people of two options that have been on the table before. Your commentary here demonstrates the intrinsic flaw in the enthusiast's viewpoint. We are not out to ruin MMA on Misplaced Pages. We simply want the "walled garden" mentality to cease and for the articles to follow the same guidelines that other projects are required to follow. Are there counter examples where there are worse article? Entirely possible, but for the time being, the eye of scrutiny is on MMA articles. Is it possible that other sports will be touched by this plan to break down the walls and follow the guidelines? Absolutely yes. So to summarize, your premise is faulty and a personal attack on those who are attempting to uphold the policies. Hasteur (talk) 15:07, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely not. My post above is absent of any personal attack. Your argument is flawed as well. You say other projects are required to follow these same guidelines? No they're not. Misplaced Pages is full of fancruft(America's Next Top Model) that has absolutely no degree of lasting notability. The eye of scrutiny on MMA articles is not Misplaced Pages as a whole, rather it is the agenda of a few editors who can be counted on one, perhaps two, hands. If you truly wanted to improve the articles to adhere to Wiki standards, improve them! Instead it's one constant AfD after another. When those AfDs don't turn out the way MMA-deletionists intended, they simply nominate them again at a later date, with no attempt at improving them in the meantime.AugustWest1980 (talk) 16:22, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

*Edit to add, show me one AfD for a UFC ppv recently not started by the MtKing, Hasteur, Ravenswing, TreyGeek, NewConnorMan, or the new POINTy troll Portillo. Just one. Most have been MtKing's doing. Not only does he brag about it, he also openly antagonizes MMA supporters without repercussion, blaming us when his AfDs are shut down without a 'delete' verdict. Sorry, but it is beyond obvious that you guys are not trying to make Misplaced Pages a better place. Truly, we're supposed to assume good faith, but your collective ruined any hope of that long ago with your antics and irritating smarminess.AugustWest1980 (talk) 16:30, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I've been reading this debate for awhile now, and I really don't have a horse in this race, but I have a question with regards to notability and the like. First, yes I know other things are on Misplaced Pages, but what is the difference between the UFC PPVs and the regular WWE and TNA PPVs that have articles here? Are the wrestling PPVs consider inheritable notable? If so, what coverage/guidelines do they get their notability from? Wildthing61476 (talk) 13:39, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I believe WWE is deemed notable per WP: Fabulous Costumes. JoelWhy? talk 14:38, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

No! Bad JoelWhy! We explicitly discourage fabulous costumes here! Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:41, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

In response to Wildthing61476, their PPVs typically receive coverage from mainstream media sources such as The Sun and The Star (British national newspapers), Québecor Média (Canoe.ca) and the Miami Herald; not to mention extensive coverage from wrestling-oriented reliable sources such as the Wrestling Observer. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹ 14:43, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Just as UFC PPV events receive coverage from mainstream media sources such as Yahoo!, the LA Times, the Las Vegas Sun, as well as national newspapers like USA Today. Not to mention the extensive coverage in foreign countries like Brazil, Mexico, the UK, and Japan. Also the multitude of MMA-oriented websites such as Sherdog or BloodyElbow. Oh yeah, and other mainstream sporting media such as ESPN, Sports Illustrated, FoxSports, etc.AugustWest1980 (talk) 15:05, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I can confirm that Brazil's two main national newspapers, O Estado de S. Paulo and Folha de S.Paulo, regularly cover UFC events, as shown here and here. Evenfiel (talk) 15:15, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm forced to ask the question, then - if MMA Event articles are well sourced and competently written, what harm do they do to the project? If it's a reputation thing, I've got a list of articles more damaging to Misplaced Pages's reputation than these. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:53, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

It should be noted that coverage in the Sun and the Star, while indicative of some cultural relevance, is not coverage in something that generally meets WP:RS. Also the Sun is owned by a major player in the PPV scene. Rich Farmbrough, 16:07, 4 June 2012 (UTC).

Regardless of Murdoch's many fingers in many pies, coverage by multiple national media sources (not just The Sun) is generally a reasonable claim to notability for article subjects. In response to AugustWest1980, I think your point is fair - if an event had such extensive coverage then I would tend to consider it notable. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹ 20:31, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - AfD regular, sports fan, no dog in the MMA fight... I don't think the UFC pages are being deleted when challenged; certainly not lately. If there is a caucus attempting to delete them, they will become frustrated and shut down the disruptive mass attacks if more common sense (policy: IAR) and a lower level of mechanical adherence to the mantra of "three sources or bust" (guideline: GNG) is followed by closing administrators. High number events have adequate sourcing and, of course, the answer to preserving the low numbered events over the long haul is to find adequate sourcing for them as well. But I don't think this is any sort of crisis at AfD other than the minor annoyance of excessive cut-and-pasted challenges with no effort to follow WP:BEFORE. This, too, will pass. Carrite (talk) 17:03, 4 June 2012 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 17:04, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

• That is an excellent point. I believe the only UFC events that have been deleted were ones that went unchallenged. Anytime there is vocal opposition to it the closing admin rules it either "Keep" or "no consensus". Now that these AfDs are being heavily challenged seems those who nominate and support deletion get angry and accuse the "MMA community" of disrupting the process. Ha! AugustWest1980 (talk) 18:40, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - One thing that really makes me mad is that the people putting UFC article up for deletion do not even check to see if there are good sources out there. They don't follow WP:BEFORE at all. They make no attempt to IMPROVE the article or check to see if it CAN be improved before they nominate it for deletion. Then, when I bring this point up in the afd debate, users like Hasteur have the nerve to tell me that WP:BEFORE isn't a requirement... only a guideline. It is absolutely ridiculous that users like Mtking and Hasteur constantly use WP policy to make their points, and when I make a very valid point that they are not even checking for possible notability before putting it up for deletion, they have the nerve to say it is only a guideline. Not-to-mention, when I'd search for sources myself, I can find sources from news agencies all over the world. LA Times, USA Today, Brazilian, Japanese, and European publications, etc. I even found sources in books and magazines using a google book search. It is ridiculous that articles get deleted if they are unopposed. So I have to run around defending all of the UFC articles because Mtking puts a bunch of them up for deletion at one time. I think if no effort is made to improve an article by finding sources BEFORE they are put up for deletion, then that nomination should automatically be thrown out. Gamezero05 21:52, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Again with the personal attacks. Great to see that the enthusiast community still knows how to sling a FUD bomb to derail and disrupt any forward momentum. Hasteur (talk) 12:15, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Hasteur, there were absolutely no personal attacks there. I'm not sure you know what a personal attack is. I simply stated things that have happened and my opinion on it. You constantly playing the victim is getting quite old and tiring. Gamezero05 19:56, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Again, absolutely no personal attack present. Your attempt to "play the victim" citing nonexistent personal attacks will garner you no favor here. GameZero stated facts. Your cabal of MMA-deletionists never try to add sources or improve existing articles. You took one admin ruling from many months back, a ruling that vaguely implied some MMA articles could be consolidated, and then ran roughshod over years of work in the MMAProject using that one statement as justification for multiple AfDs. When other editors show up to protest you throw the wiki-jargon book at them, accusing any and every one opposed to deletion as a sockpuppet, meatpuppet, canvassed voter, or SPA. You simply couldn't accept the fact that your plan to reorganize and marginalize MMA knowledge on Misplaced Pages is very, very unpopular. No doubt you will now point out the nonexistent personal attacks in my post. Knock yourself out.AugustWest1980 (talk) 17:27, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Both your and Gamezero05's remarks prove my point. Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt, and premptive attacks on the editor and not demonstrating content reasoning. Hasteur (talk) 20:07, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Prove what point? I hate to keep this stupid squabble going, but what you are saying is just completely untrue. My paragraph that I wrote was highlighting a problem with nominating articles for deletion without even bothering to check for sources. How you took that as a "personal attack" is beyond me. And quite frankly, I'm getting tired of having to respond and defend myself against your pointless straw-man arguments. Gamezero05 21:00, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Aw... how cute, they learned a new keyword to disrupt debates. Tired of having to respond and defend yourself? Don't. If my postings are so out of line someone outside the enthusiast community will tell me to sit down. You commited an ad-hominem attack with It is absolutely ridiculous that users like Mtking and Hasteur constantly use WP policy to make their points, and when I make a very valid point that they are not even checking for possible notability before putting it up for deletion, they have the nerve to say it is only a guideline. Your continued insistance that this wasn't an attack and commiting yet annother attack on the person with You constantly playing the victim is getting quite old and tiring. again steps over the line. That you commit further attacks when you're being cautioned about personal attacks only demonstrates that you can't disassociate the user from the action. The fact that you claim I'm setting up straw man arguments, I point at the collection of UFC articles that are now on the AfD block that are in danger of deletion not because of any action that MtKing or myself took directly. So you know what, if I'm going to be tarred and feathered as a MMA deletionist, I might as well play the part. <sarcasam>Delete every single MMA article</sarcasam> Hasteur (talk) 01:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Ad-hominem attacks? I don't think you know what ad-hominem means. You seem to think personal attacks and ad-hominem attacks mean simply mentioning your name. Personal attacks would mean I attacked you personally in some way. An example would be if I called you a name. An ad-hominem attack would be if I used some irrelevant point to try to make an argument. An example of that would be if I said something like "John can't be good at basketball... he's a nerd". Being a nerd has no real connection to one's basketball playing ability. There are different kinds of ad-hominem attacks, but they all follow the same basic principle. And NOTHING I said was an ad-hominem attack. And NOTHING I said was a personal attack. I was simply pointing out FACTS that had happened, and used specific names to clarify exactly who I am talking about. If you'd like to see exactly where you said WP:BEFORE is only a guideline and not a requirement, it is right here: WP:Articles_for_deletion/UFC_21. Also, you accuses me of "personal attacks" yet you make smart remarks like "aw... how cute", and resort to calling me an "enthusiast" as if you are trying to discredit me as an editor because I actually like the subject I spend time editing. And you have the nerve to tell me that I'M out of line? Gamezero05 02:14, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The reason why UFC 21 got kept is simple, the MMA fans have created through various means including off-wiki canvassing and rallying calls such an atmosphere of total vitriol and disruption that no editor wants to go near it, you are guilty of it (and for the avoidance of any doubt yes I mean you Gamezero05), along with numerous socks of other indef'ed editors and SPA's the whole debate has been so poisoned to such an extent that any chance of a rational compromise went long ago. I can think of three or four good editors who have given up on MMA as a result, I hope that you feel mighty proud of yourselves sitting there in your Mum's basement. In fact it will make a good case study and essay on how as a single interest group can force it's agenda on the WP community. Also before you jump up and down claim this is an attack, no it is not it is explaining what has happened as I see it, so don't waste the electrons in replying if all you are going to do is talk about how much I have attacked you. Mtking 04:36, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

How am I causing disruption? Because you aren't getting your way? Because I'm standing up to you guys who want to delete everything? I can't believe you are trying to blame this on "us"... the people who actually care about MMA. YOU are one of the people responsible for all of this "vitriol". You caused an uproar when you decided to start merging entire years worth of articles to one page and delete numerous other outright. So let me get this straight. We are editing MMA articles on Misplaced Pages just fine, then one day you and others decide to go on an MMA crusade and start merging and deleting everything in sight, then we try our hardest to stop that from happening, and now you are blaming US for the disruption? It is really quite unbelievable. I don't know anything about off wiki-canvassing or sock puppets or SPA's, since I'm not involved with any of that myself, so I really have no idea what to say about that. I don't know if that is even true or not. Plus, I find it quite ironic that you claim I am one of the ones causing disruption and I am responsible for "vitriol", yet you say things like "I hope that you feel mighty proud of yourselves sitting there in your Mum's basement", and Hasteur gets smart with me, yet you guys claim I am the one slinging personal attacks. Gamezero05 05:12, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

You could not resist wasting the electrons could you, even after I told you not to; and it is not me making comments about basements it your colleagues, also don't bother wasting yet more time and effort by claiming you don't read the MMA forums as you have made enough comments to very clearly demonstrate you do. Mtking 06:34, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

AugustWest and Gamezero, you're approaching this discussion in the entirely the wrong way. Constructing arguments which make sense is not useful in a dispute predicated instead on leveraging inside processes. As an example of the former (ie arguments), it makes a lot of sense that subjects in close proximity in an encyclopedia should follow similar and consistent formatting, but arguing for this first pillar of wiki against blatant violation not only apparently fails POLICY but is considered a DISRUPTive nuisance. As an example of the latter (processes), defending hundred of pages against AfD's is wasteful and time-consuming whereas nominations are very cheap, and no amount of making sense will change this basic reality either. The only way these very disruptive and inconsistent changes to a very specific subset of pages can be reversed is to gain the support of some insiders with the political weight and know-how to tip the balance in the other direction. That's a very different kind of task to what you're twiddling away at here. 75.172.4.206 (talk) 06:32, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, this thread was started to gather consensus on what, if anything, we can do to reduce the drama level regarding MMA deletions. One simple way which would have a noticeable effect would be to indefinitely block editors whose contributions at this point are basically yelling about how The Deletionist Cabal Is Ruining Everything Because They Hate UFC And Love ATM. There are at least two prominent candidates on this thread. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:51, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

And I agree completely with that. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:46, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The MMA debate actually raises several very good, very valid questions about sports notability, and these have yet to be answered. The problem lies at both extremes, those that want to keep everything, and those that want to delete everything, albeit with one side being somewhat more disruptive than the other. I gave up on trying to bring the two sides together once it became apparent that neither side was willing to compromise, even a little. Eventually, a settlement will be forced upon them all, which is usually the net result when two sides refuse to cooperate with each other: A solution that no one will like, but they will not like it equally. The sad thing is, a compromise wouldn't be that complicated if not for the bludgeoning. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 14:33, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

We have already compromised a lot. We agreed to the omnibus. We have been talking about splitting up the omnibus because it is too long. We are trying to work on this. All that we ask is that the numbered UFC pay-per-view events have their own pages. That is really all I am looking for. I am also wanting to improve the existing numbered pages. But I (and the rest of the MMA project) can't ever get any of this done when we are constantly trying to defend pages from deletion. Gamezero05 18:24, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not blaming you in particular Gamezero. You and I have bumped heads once or twice but I think we both respect each other and have generally treated each other fairly, even when we disagreed. I was trying to get the whole omnibus system redesigned, based on the input of everyone, when it became apparent that some were not willing to compromise. I don't have a preferred way, I just knew the first way was too rough to work. Everyone does try to paint the place like it is two camps, when the reality is there are two strong viewpoints, and half the people just lean one way or the other, and are not as extreme. But half the crowd ARE extreme in the "all" or "nothing" camp. The most vocal minorities are the ones being the boldest, which is why there is so much disruption. Consensus can't be reached when some are so reactionary. This is why I think eventually it will require an outside binding resolution to move forward. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 18:45, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

"Also, you accuse me of "personal attacks" yet you make smart remarks like "aw... how cute", and resort to calling me an "enthusiast" as if you are trying to discredit me as an editor because I actually like the subject I spend time editing. And you have the nerve to tell me that I'M out of line?" "When other editors show up to protest you throw the wiki-jargon book at them, accusing any and every one opposed to deletion as a sockpuppet, meatpuppet, canvassed voter, or SPA." I agree with Gamezero and AugustWest. Hasteur and Mtking love throwing potshots and condescending comments to MMA fans. But if anyone challenges them, they are instantly accused of disruption and ruining Misplaced Pages. Portillo (talk) 05:36, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

• Could that be because we've been personally attacked by SPAs, IP editors, externally canvassed users, and editors in goods standing (Like yourself) for so long that the only way to get through to you is to drop the mask of civility and start throwing elbows with the same sort of abusive language that gets levied against us? Want our behavior to improve? start by calling out editors who level abusive statements to us and we'll be more reasonable to work with. Don't care? We can ride the Drama Merry go Round until someone gets so fed up with the incessant drama from the project that even more painful sanctions will get applied and the suporter croud will lose more content than what we have been willing to compromise for already. Hasteur (talk) 12:22, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

"that even more painful sanctions will get applied and the suporter croud will lose more content than what we have been willing to compromise for already." I'm sure I'm not the only one fed up with these types of threats. Any doubt that there is an axe to grind is all but cleared up with comments like these, coupled with the corresponding behavior. BearMan998 (talk) 13:35, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Additionally, this is a true example of a personal attack and it's from none other than Hasteur himself. I have never personally attacked you so I would appreciate it if you can edit and interact in a civil manner. BearMan998 (talk) 15:36, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I might be short-sighted here, but I can't see anything in that link that looks like a personal attack. Can you clarify? Black Kite (talk) 15:41, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

See his edit summary of "You already voted, now scurry back to your den." I made a simple mistake in my edit and that was his response to it. BearMan998 (talk) 15:55, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I missed the edit-summary. Yeah, a bit snarky, not sure if it was attempting to be a joke based on your user name. Black Kite (talk) 15:59, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comment all I know is, Hasteur and Mtking cannot use an excuse like "other people personally attacked us, so we're going to personally attack people here". Two wrongs don't make a right, and nobody has personally attacked you guys in this discussion. Gamezero05 16:45, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment for the MMA crowd: I see that UFC 94 is a Good Article. Quality work like that is your best weapon to disarm your opponents. While you seem to be doing a great job on the athlete bios, I would suggest you get together and collaborate on a few event articles to bring them up to higher standards. Given the coverage Canada's major media are giving it, UFC 149 should be a relatively easy candidate once the event happens. The first one in Toronto that set an attendance record received considerable coverage, iirc. Show off a few more examples like UFA 94, and the arguments against their existence will whither and die. Resolute 17:01, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree Resolute. If there are any good things to come out of this whole debacle is that it has brought attention to the MMA crowd that 1) Misplaced Pages needs help in editing the MMA articles and 2) MMA articles which are a valuable resource to the MMA community and the general public are being deleted. There have been some very good editors who contribute to these articles however with all the nominations for deletion, I see them using their resources instead to fight the nominations and getting sucked into endless and heated arguments. BearMan998 (talk) 17:17, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I recently made UFC 145 similar to UFC 94 in order to prevent it from getting deleted. And the article isn't even close to being finished. One problem is that the people who want to delete the articles (Mtking, Hasteur), don't make any effort to improve any of the articles. They just go around trying to get them deleted. Gamezero05 17:35, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Lets not kid ourselves here, the sources in UFC 145 that are from sources that WP would call reliable are routine primary news coverage or more about the fighters with a tangential link to the event. Lets take the cite from the impresive sounding International Business Times here as an example on closer invistigation you will acutaly see that it is from a user content blog. Where are the sources written after the event, with further analysis or discussion on the long term impact of this event? Mtking 23:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, if you happened to notice, the UFC 145 article is NOT finished. I never got around to finishing summarizing the results and also if you notice, I never got around to writing anything for the "subsequent events" section. If you are wanting sources for things AFTER the event, you are going to have to wait... because nobody has written that part yet. It isn't a finished article... remember, Misplaced Pages is a constant work in progress. Gamezero05 04:00, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

So you admit that currently the event does not have demonstrated enduring notability (as per WP:NOT) it should therefore be redirected to the omnibus article until such time as it does. Mtking 05:57, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

• "when it became apparent that some were not willing to compromise... But half the crowd ARE extreme in the "all" or "nothing" camp.". In general I (and the wiki record) would agree with Dennis's characterization of what happened. Back when I was still involved with this, I distinctive recall proposals which retain 80% of the original omnibus reasoning (if not the entire design of copy/pasting dozens of pages into one), with enthusiastic support, and being ignored completely by the omnibus designers (unfortunately there's nothing to diff for silence). Those among the userbase who felt their reasonable attempts to compromise weren't being addressed wasn't a uncommon experience (there was no reply to this). From a cursory look at the discussion today, this lopsided behavior has only continued, with targeted archiving of critical comments. Speaking of which, it's worth noting that the proposal above was also unilaterally collapsed as TLDR by omnibus hardliners, and this seems commonplace. When that sort of unbalanced environment persists, the combined outcry is rather unsurprising, and whatever solution should address this extremism. Agent00f (talk) 00:44, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

• So let's get this straight, you made a proposal which recived enthusiastic support from one editor that in essance wanted to amend WP's notability requirement to say that if the sum of the parts was notabile than the parts are also notable, and you are seriouly wondering why the attempt to change poilcy was not taken seriously and was ignored when it was such a transparent attempt at derailing the discussison and continue your filibustering. If you should be in any doubt about how transparent your filibustering is, have a read of your RFC/U here or here including such quotes as he has gone out of his way to be intentionally obtuse, redundant and verbose for the purpose of diluting and distracting from the discussion or and it is clear from Agent's behavior here --the personal attacks, the battlefield mentality, the accusations of gangbanging, the filibustering, the right vs. wrong ideology, et cetera. Mind you you have achieved something, you have forced a number of editors in the MMA project who were willing to work within the existing WP policies to leave the project. Mtking 03:56, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I believe it was you, Mtking, and a few others who made people leave the project. The project was going just fine before you and some others went on a crusade. You and a few others who have Misplaced Pages "know-how" come in and completely change how MMA is presented on Misplaced Pages, and when 95% of the people involved with the MMA project oppose you, you blame THEM for "disruption". It would be like a small, well-trained army swooping through a village destroying everything in sight because they want the land, and when the villagers try to fight back the small, trained army blames the villagers for being so difficult. Gamezero05 04:10, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

So it's those established editors fault for wanting this project to be an encyclopedia and not a MMA fans results and gossip site, hm, maybe you should also read Agent00f's RFC/U as well.Mtking 06:09, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages will be no less of an encyclopedia with the inclusion of high-ranking MMA articles. And just because a few individual users have been disruptive doesn't mean the entire MMA-supporting side can be generalized as being disruptive. Some of us have valid, policy-based opinions, although many of them are repeatedly dismissed or overlooked with a high prejudice.

And without getting into a personal attack, I have to say I see a lot of irony in some of the claims being made. Both sides have plenty of guilt in the filibustering department, especially in the repeated echoing of "fails notability, fails notability!" when there has been plenty of consensus that it doesn't. Likewise, I find it quite humorous that the inclusionists who wish to maintain and preserve information are being considered disruptive, while the deletionist side that mangles useful articles and creates large amounts of drama and the resulting problems somehow claims that they are not disruptive.

Ultimately, I think a few editors on both sides really need to step back, and perhaps away from the issue altogether, simply because they are completely unwilling to compromise. That sort of adamant behavior is not beneficial towards reaching an agreement or consensus since they will never back down or admit fault. At this point, if anyone is simply unable to accept either the deletion of any MMA article or the existance of the top-tier, notable MMA articles, should really step away and take some time to cool down and return with more of an open mind. Otherwise, this argument will never die down. Zeekfox (talk) 07:29, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary Break

This issue will never die down when the supporter community can externally canvas for new editors to come in and require established editors to have to prove the entire reason over again. Those of us who are left in the "enforcing WP policy" camp are the ones that refuse to take an exit from the debate because we know that any established editor who leaves the project emboldens the supporter community to continue their disruptive tactics. Hasteur (talk) 11:42, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Do you have evidence of external canvassing? Ypsi.peter (talk) 14:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment Good question. Hasteur, you continually accuse the inclusionist side of canvassing, sockpuppetry, meatpuppetry. Where is the proof?

Also, a reasonable compromise was suggested. All numbered UFC events get their own page, all lesser UFC events and all lesser organization events get omnibus pages. The deletionist side rejected it. The inclusionists have continually gave ground in this discussion, seems the deletionists simply will not budge thus implying an agenda of erasing MMA knowledge and history from Misplaced Pages. They have even rudely suggested that inclusionists leave Misplaced Pages altogether, implying we don't belong here, suggesting we start a different Wiki proving that they do not believe the subject matter belongs on WP. AugustWest1980 (talk) 15:06, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

RE to Ypsi.peter Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive233#Request for Sanctions against User:BigzMMA (Socking, Canvassing), Any of the multiple AfDS or disucssions that the hordes of non-wikipedians have been screaming for their want.(Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ultimate Challenge MMA,Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/UFC on Fuel TV: Sanchez vs. Ellenberger,Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/UFC 151,Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/UFC 149: Aldo vs. Koch (2nd nomination),WT:MMANOT,WT:MMA,Talk:2012 in UFC events)Hasteur (talk) 17:24, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

The reason why we've suggested that the "inclusionists" found their own MMAPedia is because the articles that are being lobbied for are so far below the basic guideline that individual backyard events can get included. I think that some MMA articles do merit inclusion here (Like the Greasing contraversy given above). Given that all of the articles that have been challanged fall significantly below the level of inclusion, the Omnibus article is a significant step to reasonableness that the "deletionists" have put forward. Not every single MMA numbered event could ever be notable. The fact that we have to beat the point into the "inclusionists" with a spiked club only demonstrates the level of disruptive IDHT that the "inclusionists" are constantly practicing. Hasteur (talk) 17:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Again, you're misrepresenting the facts. First you say that the "inclusionists" are lobbying for such basic guidelines that backyard events could be included. Patently false and absurd. The "inclusionists" have stated many times that numbered UFC events are notable and deserve their own articles where other lessor orgs could have omnibuses. You mistakenly say "not every single MMA numbered event could ever be notable" is again false. Every Superbowl is notable. Every World Series is notable. Apparently every season of America's Top Model is notable. I just got through adding multiple sources to UFC 2, which someone POINTedly nominated AfD.

Movies, TV shows, reality television, usually the only references they have listed are sites like TV.com or IMDB.com, that makes them notable. Well every single numbered UFC has an entry on IMDB. Using the same judging criteria, wouldn't that make them notable? It's WP:COMMONSENSE, in 20 years no one will know or care who won Season 3 of Survivor or ANTM, but they will still be writing about and discussing UFC 1 and 2, just as people still discuss Superbowl 1.AugustWest1980 (talk) 19:08, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Forgive my obtuseness but I don't understand how those links provide evidence of external canvassing. Can you be more specific for me? Ypsi.peter (talk) 18:04, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

My friend, you're coming to this with a very stacked deck. Before you post further you may want to consider reading over the policies and guidelines of Misplaced Pages as your agenda and what you're aiming for is fairly obvious to me. Hasteur (talk) 19:06, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Your constant veiled threats to new users are getting old Hasteur. It is obvious his agenda, he wants to participate in the events surrounding the destruction of MMA on Misplaced Pages.AugustWest1980 (talk) 19:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

From another editor in another thread, but very relevant and so far unanswered:

In the end, this really has become just an editing war where a few editors are trying to march forward, waving the banner of policy where it doesn't apply. You want proof that this is mostly an attack? Because it's UFC articles being targeted. There are plenty of pages out there for lower tier events that even the most devoted MMA fan wouldn't recognize as notable, but instead of trying to delete/merge THOSE, the editors on the opposite side are going after the most notable MMA organizations out there.

Whether pages should be deleted or not, why AfD nominate every recent and soon-to-be UFC article, but yet, don't even bother with pages for DREAM, Titan FC, or Cage Rage? If it were just a matter of "enforcing policy", then the AfD nominations would be targeted towards articles that truly aren't notable...not the pages people actually use and care about. Instead, this is clearly being done with ill intent. AugustWest1980 (talk) 19:19, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Well it's become very obvious that there is an axe to grind here which is made obvious by the constant threats of deletion and the specific targeting of these articles as opposed to certain WWE and boxing articles. With that being said, can we really say that good faith is being exercised by the aforementioned threat issuers?BearMan998 (talk) 20:16, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

That would be because there's a history with the UFC articles, therefore they're more closely watched, and what is done with other things, the "what about X?" argument, is irrelevant. But let's not let that get in the way of a good conspiracy theory, shall we? Let's instead use megabytes of text to sling mud everywhere about the anti-UFC cabal instead of improving the articles and their sourcing so that there is no question of their notability and relevance.

With the sarcasm hat off: the best way to refute arguments that something isn't notable, is WP:RUNOFTHEMILL, or that it's part of an indiscriminate collection of information, is to improve the article with uncontroversially reliable sources that establish the event as unique, notable, and worthy of inclusion. Let the slings of arrows of outrageous fortune slide like water off a duck's back, and improve the article so that neutral users will !vote Keep. If, however, that can't be done, due to a lack of uncontroversially reliable sources to establish uniqueness, notability, and worthiness... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:06, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

• Ah, yes those would be my words that were quoted. And I would like to point out that the mention of lesser divisions not getting AfD's wasn't a "What about X?" argument to keep the UFC articles, but rather a point that the AfD's were not made with such a noble cause as the deletionists try to make it out to be. The AfD nominators aren't interested in removing MMA articles that fail notability, but instead go on a crusade to strike down articles that are well-sourced and cover a notable event.
• Also, recent articles have been getting improved. Yet, it seems the opposition to MMA continues to be relentless, dismissing every possible source as being either primary (referring to the MMA-specialized publications) or a newspaper (pretty much everything else that publishes news). By those standards, 98% of Misplaced Pages should be deleted, right? Zeekfox (talk) 13:36, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

• The first is WP:PRIMARY. I believe the second argument is not "it's a newspaper" but "it's WP:ROUTINE". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:37, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

• In answer to Ypsi.peter (yet another MMA SPA) go to any of the MMA forums (such as sherdog.net) and search for "wikipedia" and you find your evidence, along with countless attacks on editors here.
• In answer to AugustWest1980 and BearMan998, your attempts to goad others to nominate articles for deletion (such as WWF events) won't work with me, if you think that they should be deleted, you always have the option of nominating them yourself, however as you are aware pointy AfD nominations by MMA SPA's are normally closed in very short order. Mtking 23:04, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not trying to goad you into anything so that's a poor presumption on your part. BearMan998 (talk) 02:07, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Try and goad you into nominating AfD? What an ignorant insinuation on your part. Trust me, I would be ecstatic if you never nominated another article for deletion ever again. I see you deftly jumped over the question posed by imagining insidious motives instead of answering.AugustWest1980 (talk) 12:21, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what agenda you think I have or what sinister motives are behind my comments, but I can assure they aren't true. I read wikipedia articles a lot, of all shapes and sizes, but I've never been interested in editing. My questions are honest and simple, and I'm not trying to trick you or troll you or anything like that, I'm just trying to understand how this fits into wikipedia as a whole. As somebody who never edits I've never paid attention to this whole arguing facet of wikipedia. Ypsi.peter (talk) 03:22, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

The AfDs

Since nearly all of these hardly had any discussion on the actual notability of the subject (and since they were well overdue - clearly many admins are steering well clear of the subject, and I can hardly blame them), I have closed all of them (apart from a couple that were clear Keeps) as No Consensus. At least this time they weren't disrupted by SPAs. I would suggest these aren't nominated again until a clear consensus on the applicability of WP:NOT#NEWS, WP:ROUTINE and WP:SPORTSEVENT as they relate to MMA events is gained, with the input of a wide range of the community. As a side note, since it appears to be a problem related to a vague definition in WP:SPORTSEVENT, I went and looked at boxing, to see if there were articles on single world championship fights. The answer to that was "some of them", however I note that where they exist, they're usually very well sourced, and contain real-world background and coverage from many non-primary sources - see Wladimir Klitschko vs. David Haye, for example. If all UFC articles were up to this standard, there wouldn't be any argument about their notability. Black Kite (talk) 13:48, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

AFDing any of the UFC/MMA pages right now (short of CSD-qualified cases) is disruptive to the process; editors who are involved that are still nominating need to stop and/or been on a short block to chill for a while. There's a solution between "having no UFC event pages" and "having every UFC event with a page" that still needs to be figured out off AN/I, but those purposely disrupting the process do need admin action. If there has to be a formal proposal that no UFC/MMA related article should be AFD'd while this process is undergoing, then so be it. --MASEM (t) 14:15, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

The problem is, the discussion has been going on for months, it has been virtually stalled for months, it has let to mulple RfC/Us, SPIs, more blocks than I can count, meatpuppeting on both sides, and I would bet 100x more text in comments than the whole of every MMA article combined. I don't think we can flatly say that any and all MMA AFDs are disruptive without looking at the case individually. New unsourced future event articles are created all the time, for instance. Mass AFDs, yes, I would agree that is less than optimal and likely being done to be disruptive, but would have to look at the circumstances. I support the close of No Consensus in this case, for instance. If the time I spend mediating there has taught me one thing, it is that this will not be solved without a binding resolution. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 18:33, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

For every boxing article that is well sourced such as Wladimir Klitschko vs. David Haye there are UFC articles that are well sourced as well such as UFC 94. Similarly, there are as many boxing articles like Floyd Mayweather vs. Zab Judah or Andre Berto vs. Victor Ortiz which lack the non-primary sources and quality of Wladimir Klitschko vs. David Haye. I don't think the lack of non-primary sources should lead to automatic deletion as these were indeed championship fights which will leave a lasting legacy to the sport. Similarly, UFC championship fights leave a lasting legacy to the sport which is my main reason for supporting that they retain a standalone article. With that said, articles are always a work in progress and quality is always being built as seen by the improvement in some of the higher numbered UFC articles. Additionally, as previously stated, my stance is that only events with championship fights retain an individual article, the other events are not relevant enough in my opinion. BearMan998 (talk) 20:01, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Let's not argue the content/inclusion part here (this is ANI). I would extend any action that I suggest to AFD'ers of MMA to extend to established editors that are creating MMA match articles without impunity. As for the process taking too long, what's probably needed is to have non-involved admins set up a RFC process to resolve the issue. (This is skipping an Arbcom step that tends to end up back to this point such as with the Troubles or Mohammad images.) --MASEM (t) 03:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Edit warring by Leo Corbett

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

For the past several months, Leo Corbett (talk · contribs) has been edit warring on the various pages relating to Power Rangers Samurai (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). His primary issue is the addition of a fictional character's surname, despite it not being mentioned at all in the events of the program. As is evident from his talk page, I have been advising him not to add this unverifiable information to articles (as well as to not reintroduce content I deduced as being overly unencyclopedic). He has seen fit to add this content as far back as November (when the show was on broadcast hiatus), in January (when it was still on hiatus), and again this afternoon (despite the inclusion of a hidden message stating it should not be used).

"Leo Corbett" is clearly not getting the point and has not listened to anything I have told him in his 8 month tenure on Misplaced Pages. He has not done anything except add this content that he's been repeatedly told not to. The only other edits he has made are to add trivial notes concerning broadcast dates in the show's episode list and large swathes of information on a trivial item in the program, along with a mention of a future cast member who has still not shown up in the show. I am tired of having to clean up after him and baby him when he clearly does not plan on listening any time soon as he insists upon this unverified minutae's inclusion.—Ryulong (竜龙) 22:22, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

40-something edits in 8 months hardly looks like edit-warring to me. What administrator action are you looking for? Blocking some kid for adding cruft to the article about their favourite TV show?
If you are dealing with the area of children's TV shows, expect childish editing. You can chose to tidy up after them, or not to tidy after them. You're not going to speed up the maturation of their brain with a WP:AN/I report.--Shirt58 (talk) 06:06, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

40-something edits in 8 months where one constantly adds back material that others have advised to be verifiable sounds like a form of edit-warring to me. Just long and drawn out. I appreciate that you were kind to Leo Corbett (talk · contribs) to point out the guide for beginners, but I can understand Ryulong's frustration and if it's not WP:AN/I report, there is nowhere else to air grievances like these. -- Jun.rhee (talk) 07:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

If it were 40 mixed edits in 8 months it would not be edit warring, but 40 edits repeatedly adding in the same material repeatedly despite getting reverted each time falls under the definition of slow-motion edit warring and is as blockable as rapid fire edit warring. Whether their brain matures is irrelevant, the whole point is to dispense with sustained disruptive activities which this clearly is. Blackmane (talk) 14:59, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

On those grounds, I propose that an official warning be given this user, and that any further disruption of this nature by this user be dealt with by immediate blocks of progressively longer duration, beginning at 24 hours. - Jorgath (talk) 20:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Warnings are not just within the purview of admins, any of us can warn users. I've dropped a final disruption and an edit warring warning on their talk page. Maybe that will give them a heads up. (Note: I'm not an admin) Blackmane (talk) 10:49, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

No, it's because admins generally don't make any move on users who have not been previously warned about what they're doing * might have to strike this statement if it turns out that they've been previously warned. You might want to strike your suggestion that no "established editor in good standing has commented", which suggests that you find that those of us who have commented are not in good standing, and that there is "cyberbullying of a child" going on here. Both of those are personal attacks. Blackmane (talk) 16:22, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Those are indeed personal attacks; Shirt58, consider yourself warned. As for the OP issue, it's outside my area of exerptise, alas, hence my lack of comments. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes indeed. I'm not particularly insulted, because I can AGF it. But I'm surprised I'm not considered "an established editor in good standing." Well...the reason I can AGF it is that "established" is so loose a term that I can see how I'm not considered "established," but I'm pretty sure I'm "in good standing," since I've never been blocked and I believe the only warning I've ever had was "remember to sign, please." - Jorgath (talk) 19:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to do an NAC on this one. Leo Corbett hasn't edited in a couple of days so nothing can be done until they come back. Blackmane (talk) 17:42, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

SK Foods

After several attempts to have the article SK Foods deleted as an attack page, with allegations that it was all a media fraud, this article was turned into a lengthy POV whitewash of the company, and making all sorts of unsourced BLP allegations and accusations against named publications and named individuals. For example, "Mr. Salyer was a victim of prisoner abuse nearly losing his life to health failure, at the hand of convicted prisoner abuser, " (this had a source, but the source says nothing about abuse of Mr. Salyer).

I've reverted it all back to the stub it used to be, but a look at the pre-revert version shows masses of this - read it and cringe. User:StoneforGoliath is the author of all this, and presumably is responsible for the IP edits too. I've also put a temporary full protection on the article until what to do about it has been decided.

Why am I bringing it here? It's late and I'm tired, and I can't face a closer examination of the article right now, but something needs to be done - maybe block the editor (who has had one IP blocked, assuming it's the same person - all IP addresses are coming from the same region of France)? Or maybe extend the protection? But some admin action is needed - and sorry to dump it on others here. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:32, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

In the edit history there are three different editors attempting to correct the issues with the SK Foods page, however Boing! said Zebedee is protecting the stub from improvement. That editor is clearly trying to protect the people behind the issues and is not really a Wiki editor. There are literally a hundred thousand people in witness now in the SK Foods issues and they want the issue handled properly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StoneforGoliath (talk • contribs) 21:52, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a place for "issues" to be "handled properly". (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 22:36, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Also WP:NPA. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:01, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:COATRACK seems to apply here too. If the guy suffered in prison, that's unfortunate, but it's really got nothing to do with the food store. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:47, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Textbook WP:COATRACK. If the "incident" is notable, then it should be titled as such, but right now, the article is everything Misplaced Pages is supposed to not be. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:48, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, if the most notable thing about that store was the legal case, then that could be the focus of the article, as it seems to be at the moment. The question might be, is the store really notable at all? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:54, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

• OK, I've been over the pre-revert version of the article a bit more closely now, and it was packed with unsupported criminal allegations against a number of named individuals and named companies, and original analysis based on a huge conspiracy theory - there were sources cited, but they did not support the claims being made. It was an egregious violation of WP:BLP policy, which I think should not be allowed to stand in the article history - so I have rev-deleted all of the offending versions. I also think the hatted allegation just above constitutes a serious BLP violation and it should be rev-deleted too, and if nobody disagrees I will do that shortly. Regarding User:StoneforGoliath, I think what is needed is a warning not to break BLP policy again, followed by an indef block if the same kind of editing is repeated. Notability? Well, SK Foods was more than a store - it was a major supplier to the tomato produce market. But if there are doubts, maybe the best thing to do is take it to AfD and let the community decide. I'll leave it a little while to see if anyone disagrees with my take on this, and if not, I'll go ahead with these proposals. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:07, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Said hatted allegation makes me wonder if WP:COMPETENCE might be in play too... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:15, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
  • No argument on revdel. I'm debating sending the article to AFD, if someone doesn't beat me to it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 18:22, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
    • Thanks for nominating it - it was better coming from someone other than me, I think, and I shall keep myself uninvolved from the AfD discussion. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:42, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
• OK, I've left an explanation/warning at User_talk:StoneforGoliath#SK_Foods_2, and I've unprotected the article. I should be able to handle it now - thanks for the help, folks. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:41, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
  • And they've started adding masses of blame-avoidance puffery and "this company was wonderful" stuff again, so I've reverted again and given a final warning - I will block next time. (Just noting this here because we appear to have someone very persistent and I want to be as open about my actions as possible) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:57, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
    • Just poking around a bit... but is this also part of the issue? - J Greb (talk) 15:23, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
      • Perhaps. Looks like he has a whole nest of UNDUE there. Not sure if MfD is appropriate, but it might be. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 17:11, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
        • Same unsupported criminal allegations against named individuals and organizations, which is a blatant BLP violation - I've deleted it. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:30, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Murder of Lin Jun and Luka Magnotta

Could an uninvolved admin please take a poke at a situation here? Put in simple terms, Luka Magnotta is the only suspect in an infamous Canadian murder. He's had some previous minor notoriety (not enough to warrant his own article at that point), but some editors wish to move the article to Murder of Lin Jun. IMO, the requested move could be considered "no consensus" at the absolute best, and more likely rejected. None the less, some editors have chosen to fork the former article to the latter title anyway (via a copy-paste move without attribution) while others have reverted and redirected the Lin Jun article back to Magnotta. Rather than allowing a multi-editor edit war to escalate, I would appreciate if someone could settle the requested move (it has run for about a week now) and place the article at the title they feel has consensus support, perhaps protecting whichever redirect is left behind - or even deciding that both articles are valid. (I will leave notices of this thread at both article talk pages, but won't at any individual user talk pages since I have not commented on any editors by name). Resolute 14:09, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

See also Talk:Luka Magnotta#Re-forking of this article. Resolute 14:16, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Do note that there is a third option, which is to leave the unduly weighty play-by-play on Luka Magnotta Internet self-promotion right where it is and WP:SPINOUT just the Murder of Lin Jun (which currently is pretty much the latter half of the article) to Murder of Lin Jun. A spinout is not a WP:Content fork and can be legitimately proposed with {{split section}}; I'd already used {{edit semiprotected}} to ask that tag be placed on the section "Murder of Lin Jun" (the one notable event in what was otherwise a non-notable mess that failed AfD twice Luka Magnotta, Luka Rocco Magnotta in 2008) but one user is attempting to prevent the split (spinout the murder itself) from even going to any form of vote. 66.102.83.61 (talk) 14:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's not so much that they want to move it. The problem is there has been an ongoing RFC regarding the move wherein the majority oppose a move but there's no clear consensus and now instead of moving it, opponents of leaving it at Luka Magnotta are creating a content fork. BLP1E doesn't apply because he's notable for more than just an alleged murder and has appeared in the news media going back nearly 10 years. Additionally, the claims of "weight" are nonsense, just another misuse of guidelines to try and force a preferred version. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 14:27, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

10 years? Really? There was one false rumour in 2007 in which he claimed (using Internet sockpuppets) to be romantically involved with Paul Bernardo's notorious accomplice Karla Homolka only to then run to the Toronto Sun and deny the "affair" (likely not notable, as the event was of his own fabrication). There was some animal abuse noted by the UK Sun tabloid (sibling publication to News of the World) in 2010 and that's about it. The murder is notable, he was Interpol's most wanted international fugitive for a few days, but consensus is (two AfD's) that he was not notable in 2008, period. 66.102.83.61 (talk) 14:33, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

The murder is notable for sure but not Eric. Caden 14:55, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

That's your opinion. Unfortunately for you, the clear majority of editors disagree. This conflict is a procedural issue, so there's really no need to begin rehashing everyone's opinions on the notability of the murderer vs. the murder. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 15:20, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I dont care if the majority disagrees with me or not. The fact is the murder is notable while Eric isnt. Caden 15:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but majority rules on Misplaced Pages. Deal with it. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 15:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Um Crakkerjakk..care to explain your edit summary: "Narcissism is so unbecoming." Caden 15:36, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

So you admit that the creation of the fork is a blatant end-around the RFC (which is no consensus) and an attempt to get the article deleted? Your denials are bogus and you keep (deliberately) missing the point. A 4 year old AFD means very little and has nothing to do with the entire body of coverage. There may not have been enough to write an article 4 years ago, that does not mean that what he was doing 4, 5, or 6 years ago, which received coverage, does not come into play whatsoever. Whether or not he started the Homolka rumors himself as a publicity stunt is irrelevant, as we have MANY articles about people whose notability is built on publicity stunts. He also appeared on a gay lifestyle broadcast . I can go on but obviously nothing I say will make any difference since you're determined to get this article deleted. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 15:00, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

The murder investigation is notable. The nonsense about Homolka is not, as he in all probability fabricated that himself. The consensus from the original two AfD's is valid. The rest of this is a classic WP:BLP1E, except that the page is now becoming a WP:HATRACK for every claim about the suspect, notable or not, to be picked up by media desperate for anything that looks vaguely related to the case and then dumped here even if much of it is really not news. All of this "Internet controversy" does need to be checked for notability even if it is supposedly sourced. 66.102.83.61 (talk) 13:37, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

We've had the discussion of a proposed move for over a week. The clear majority was opposed to it. I'm not attempting to prevent a vote on a split (as I've repeatedly stated on the talk page numerous times). I objected to the forking of the page while the discussion regarding a move was still ongoing, let alone the fact that no discussion to fork was even proposed before it was done (which I believe should be proposed only after the discussion regarding the move is concluded). Bottom line - there are a couple of editors who are throwing a little tantrum because they didn't get their own way with regards to their proposal to move (even the original editor who proposed it has conceded that it's failed), so they're trying to side-step the process by taking it upon themselves to fork the article (flagrantly disregarding the fact that this action had already been reverted several times). --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 15:13, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, you were attempting to prevent any discussion from leading to a vote on the split here and again here. This is not constructive. I don't agree with the two pages overlapping in their entirety, but {{split section}} on the "Murder of Lin Jun" only is a valid WP:SPINOUT and should be opened for debate. 66.102.83.61 (talk) 15:34, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

As I explained in my edit summary. That edit was deceptive. It was not signed by the editor who created it, and gave a distinct false impression that IncredibleHulk had begun a new thread and then posted in it. It was basically the equivalent of attributing words/intentions to IncredibleHulk without his knowledge (as can be clearly seen when the previous edit of the page is viewed in it's entirety). --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 15:51, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

If your objection is that an edit is unsigned, there's {{unsigned}} or whatever SineBot uses... no need to remove content added by others. 66.102.83.61 (talk) 15:58, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Nice try, but the editor did sign their post right above it in the same edit. It wasn't an oversight. Even if it was signed, where it was placed was deceptive and distorted another editor's intentions without their knowledge. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 16:10, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

It seems clear enough at this point that your intention is to oppose even the conduct of a talk-page debate on the ({{split section}} on "Murder of Lin Jun") based on your edits at Talk:Luka Magnotta#Split. That section contains a {{edit semiprotected}} requesting "Add {{split section|Murder of Lin Jun|Talk:Luka Magnotta#Split}} to the top of the section 'Murder of Lin Jun'." You opposed adding the tag because you wanted to silence the debate on any WP:SPINOUT and the {{edit semiprotected}} was closed with "no consensus" on the basis of your objections alone. Please let the discussion on the WP:SPINOUT take its course instead of attempting to silence the debate itself before it starts. 66.102.83.61 (talk) 16:20, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

As I've stated before. I'm not necessarily opposed to a split (I honestly have no opinion on the subject). I'm opposed to having two overlapping discussions/votes happening simultaneously. I said in the discussion to move thread over two days ago that a split could be one possible solution to a move. It's sort of difficult to float the idea that I was opposed to something I suggested over two days ago before this current discussion. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 16:51, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Apparently the article has been "created" (for the 5th time) and the open move request is considered "settled", with users involved suggesting to start a "merge discussion". Skullers (talk) 18:17, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we have two articles that say basically the same thing, one of which is a copy-paste move without proper attribution. This is clearly an end run around a move discussion and is fairly disruptive. Can an uninvolved admin please wade in to help settle things? AniMate 19:06, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

It's a straightforward violation of WP:CONTENTFORK, where "redundant content forks" are listed under "Unacceptable types of forking". The content is not merely redundant (i.e., an alternate take on the same topic) but word-for-word cut-and-pasted for the most part. Disputed opinions over the correct title of an article are settled through WP:RM, not by a cut-and-paste copy to a new title. Doing such a cut-and-paste while a proposed WP:RM to that very title is still in progress is particularly disruptive. Although administrator intervention would be helpful, I think this is straightforward enough that any editor can step in and revert. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 19:47, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, no. What has been split out is basically one section, not the entire article. This is by design. I have no objection to using {{split section}} and discussing this, but no one appears to want to do so. 66.102.83.61 (talk) 19:49, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

No matter what you say it still is a copy paste move without proper attribution. Sorry the requested move discussion didn't go the way you wanted it to, and I'm sorry the parent article is semi-protected and you can't edit there. Discussion is ongoing at Talk:Luka Magnotta and this fork was only made when it started to look like consensus was against moving to the fork's location. AniMate 19:55, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Just so it's clear, cut and paste moves or splitouts without attribution are copyright violations. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:00, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

The proper way to fix attribution issues where the source is known is to add the attribution, not delete content for the sake of doing so. Otherwise, we might as well ask any of the other-language wikipedias who used content from en: to go and delete all of those pages right away.

There is no ongoing {{split section}} discussion on Talk:Luka Magnotta, just the WP:RM of the entire page. The split of the murder itself to Murder of Lin Jun should be discussed but WP:RM is not a substitute for doing so and the outcome of WP:RM is not a vote for or against splitting the page (which has some severe WP:BLP1E issues which remain unaddressed). 66.102.83.61 (talk) 19:59, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'm going to turn the article back into a redirect. You can initiate a discussion on the split at Talk:Luka Magnotta. AniMate 20:02, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I've tried requesting {{split section}} be added to the section "Murder of Lin Jun" and this was declined. That step is necessary to start the WP:SPINOUT discussion. I'd suggest discussing this before redirecting anything... especially since the redirect you propose implicitly states a WP:BLP is guilty of a WP:CRIME for which he has not yet been charged nor tried. 66.102.83.61 (talk) 20:06, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I've added the template and a section to discuss the possibility of a split. AniMate 20:12, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Not sure if it's considered as an administrative action on your part, but I've removed the template because imo opening another vote at this time will only make things worse as there's already at least 3 different threads on the same issue. Skullers (talk) 21:33, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

There is only one thread of !votes on whether to split the page, not three. The proper way to get the template to point to that one specific thread (and not others) is {{split section||Talk:Luka Magnotta#Split discussion}} — not arbitrarily removing the template while the discussion is still open. 66.102.83.61 (talk) 03:56, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Restored the template. Isn't there a talk page template for it, like for move requests? Didn't seem like a way to officially open one but it is already underway. Skullers (talk) 05:02, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Um, spinout is based on article length, and it does not justify a split on those grounds. You've used it as a rationale at least 7 times now, and it is not a valid reason as it is. Skullers (talk) 20:51, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

The Luka Magnotta article should be kept and the Murder of Lin Jun be moved into the other article. Thats my take on this.--BabbaQ (talk) 08:04, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

• HELP Can we please get an uninvolved admin to look over the RFC and make a determination of consensus so this dispute can end? The Garbage Skow (talk) 02:57, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

User:Fram refusing to stop mass category creation while RfC is going on

Over the last several days, a discussion has occurred at User_talk:Fram#Categories regarding Fram's creation of more than 5000 categories since the beginning of March. Several editors have expressed concerns about this mass creation. He was asked to initiate an RfC to discuss the matter, which he dutifully complied with. Subsequent to the initiation of the RfC, Fram has continued to create categories in a similar vein (albeit targeting only modern categories, and restricting himself from more ancient ones). I have asked him repeatedly to please stop the creation of these categories until the RfC concludes. Fram has refused to stop, creating 16 more categories today .

All I am asking for is for him to stop this category creation until the RfC concludes. I think this is a reasonable request.

Please note: I am NOT asking for someone to evaluate whether the category creation is right or wrong. That will be handled by the RfC. Would an uninvolved admin please step in to address this issue? I have notified Fram of this discussion. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 22:40, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

3000 is mass creation and shouldn't be done without prior discussion, 16 isn't really "mass" and is less of a big deal. 69.228.171.139 (talk) 07:55, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

However, both those 16 and those 3000 are part of the ~5000. And some of the recent categorisations of (dis)establishments are also questionable (though before the start of the RfC: Category:1536 disestablishments in Sweden contains Börringe Priory, a priory that was never in its established life in Sweden, but in Danmark ("The kingdom of Denmark became Lutheran in 1536 under Christian III, a staunch Protestant. All religious houses and their attendant income properties reverted to the crown for disposition."). The building the priory is housed in is now in Sweden, so the castle is now an establishment in Sweden, and it is disestablished in 1536, but having it as a 1536 disestablishment in Sweden is confusing). --Dirk Beetstra 08:07, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Note, those 5000 are the category creations only. Fram is using AWB on his main account to implement these categorisations, of lately hundreds, and hundreds earlier and thousands earlier. --Dirk Beetstra 08:19, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

This looks to me like some sort of spill-over from the Rich Farmbrough arbitration case. All those who have posted here were arguing over this sort of thing at the arbitration case. Something to bear in mind when trying to decide what needs doing here. See in particular what Fram posted on their user talk page here, and note that Kumioko (who was also one of those engaged in extensive debate at the arbitration case) has nominated some of these categories for deletion (see Fram's user talk page). The individual actions may be fine, but collectively I am concerned that what is happening here is driven by animosity that may be lingering from the arbitration case. This may need to be raised on the arbitration clarification pages to decide whether those who were arguing at that case need to avoid each other for a few weeks to a month to let things settle down. Carcharoth (talk) 00:11, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• My interaction with Fram has been rather minimal. I am concerned at the creation of 5000 categories without prior discussion. I asked several times for reference to such a discussion and was not provided with one. I therefore asked Fram to initiate an RfC, which as I noted above he did. However, he continues to create the categories and has refused to stop doing so while the RfC is going on. To blow this up into some sort of retributive strike on Fram by myself is an enormous leap of WP:ABF. I am doing no such thing. All I am asking for is for him to stop making these categories while the RfC is underway. It's as simple as that. --Hammersoft (talk) 02:39, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

American Third Position Party

Moved here from WP:AN Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:23, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

This article is always interesting, but I wanted to get some input here. Is this edit completely nonconstructive, or may there be some actual relevancy to NPOV policy buried somewhere in the string of capital letters? Reverting for now, but let me know. Thanks. Evanh2008 00:35, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

On second thought, perhaps going to AN was a bit of an extreme move. I strongly feel, though, that this article has been in need of tighter oversight for quite some time. Discussions on the talk page rarely result in any kind of constructive consensus, so I skipped that venue entirely. Anyway... Evanh2008 00:37, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment: I'm fed up with people changing my well intentioned edits. I am only following Misplaced Pages guidelines, and these hordes of users keep trying to put their POV into the article. Not all legitimate sources describe the a3p as white supremacist, rather as white nationalist, and the party clearly rejects the supremacist label on their website here: http://american3rdposition.com/?page_id=195. In addition the bias from SPLC and ADL against pro-white organizations is well known. Slaja (talk) 00:44, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I can't see any rejection of the white supremacist label at that link. HiLo48 (talk) 22:32, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

The long-standing consensus on the talk page of the article is that "white supremacist" is the most reliably-sourced description. Slaja's POV may be detected from their position that the Southern Poverty Law Center and Anti-Defamation League are biased against "pro-white organizations"! --Orange Mike | Talk 02:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

It appears to me that User:Slaja has a pretty severe ownership problem with the article, as can be seen from his edit summaries. He also appears to be prone to serial reverting up to the edit warring bright line. Further, his edits appear to be pushing a specific POV regarding the subject, and he actively discourages any attempts to unskew the article towards a neutral standpoint. Like many POV-pushers, as seen from his comment here, he responds by attacking and accusing NPOV editors of non-neutral editing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, Slaja's contributions are not only non-contructive, but disruptive and tendentious POV-pushing. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 03:55, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

While you all think you can live in your delusional world, you can't any longer by the fact that I have cited proper sources that describe A3P as "white nationalist". In addition if you again look at the material of the party itself, it clearly denounces the label supremacist. I've read their entire platform and there is nothing in the slightest bit supremacist about it. Where are these media sources getting opinions from? Hmm?? Could it possibly bias emanating from jewish organization like the SPLC and the ADL? STOP MESSING WITH MY CORRECT EDITS. Slaja (talk) 22:23, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Slaja's at it again; could somebody who hasn't been actively dealing with his edit-warring please impose a 3RR block on him/her RIGHT NOW? --Orange Mike | Talk 22:48, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Note also that according to Slaja we are "corrupt" "hordes" and that he/she will never be silenced! (Ironically, I do ride with the Great Dark Horde, although I am not Jewish.) --Orange Mike | Talk 22:59, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I think hordes is also sometimes used as part of Asian hordes. A bit on a par with the Yellow peril and the Domino theory. Still pretty much part of white supremacist philosophy. HiLo48 (talk) 23:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Requesting an interaction ban between Writegeist to me (R-41) and the reverse from me to him

I, R-41 and Writegeist got into an argument a few days ago that resulted in both of us being highly uncivil towards each other. I requested that Writegeist no longer comment on my talk page, I told the user that I would no longer talk to them on their talk page. He has done so, but has used his talk page as a soapbox for statements of defamation against me, noting multiple examples of negative or uncivil behaviour by me while not mentioning any positive behaviour by me. I told Writegeist that if he has a problem with my behaviour he can report it here to Administrator's noticeboard. And he is correct that I have been uncivil in the past few days, but he has also been uncivil to other users. In fact it was an uncivil remark to a WQA volunteer named IRWolfie- (who reported him for trolling in response), that got me angry at him. Here is the diff that shows Writegeist deleting the section he created as a defamation section against me and that I responded to, deleting it in frustration over me returning to edit my response: . As can be seen in the way Writegeist wrote the comment it is an example of Misplaced Pages:Don't call the kettle black. Also, it is not appropriate for a user to use their talk page to intentionally make defamation about a user.--R-41 (talk) 04:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

As per WP:BOOMERANG, Writegeist will very likely bring up that I have been highly uncivil to him and a few other users. I plead guilty to violation of WP:CIVIL in recent behaviour towards Writegeist and on WikiProject Yugoslavia, I acted in frustration and violated it. However in spite of my disagreements with other users such as Direktor on WikiProject Yugoslavia, I have agreed with Direktor in the past and have cooperated with Direktor.--R-41 (talk) 04:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Back to the point of my request. As the interaction between me and Writegeist has been almost completely negative and that we have a strong dislike for each other, I am requesting an interaction ban between Writegeist to me, and that it include a ban on conversation about me per the criteria described on Misplaced Pages:Banning policy#Interaction ban as "make reference to or comment on editor Y anywhere on Misplaced Pages, whether directly or indirectly;", along with all the other criteria for interaction ban. In order to address potential concern for such behaviour by me from Writegeist, I am additionally requesting an interaction ban on me to Writegeist.--R-41 (talk) 04:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

You have not provided sufficient grounds for Writegeist to be sanctioned and have even said that you yourself should be sanctioned. You have made numerous complaints about other editors and should now stop. This discussion thread should be closed. TFD (talk) 04:25, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Sigh, what is it that's wrong with me then TFD? I don't know, I get frustrated - I have had a really REALLY crappy two weeks in the real world - I had a relatively peaceful but still emotionally-upsetting breakup with my partner whom I've been in a long-term relationship with in the last two weeks, so don't be so snippy about me - I've tried to be civil, and yes I have been uncivil because I am f-ing mad at myself. I gave you the diff to look at, but you won't even consider it because you think I am a pain on Misplaced Pages If you, an administrator whom I have discussed with and cooperated with in the past won't take me seriously, then what can I do? I am not crying wolf here, this user is making defamatory comments about me on his talk page after I requested that we no longer have interactions. I simply do not want this user to make defamatory comments about me on his talk page or elsewhere. Is that so wrong to ask for it? Please go ahead and ban both me and him from talking about each other any further anywhere on Misplaced Pages, I don't want to be hounded by this user's defamatory comments anymore.--R-41 (talk) 04:33, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I saw the comment you made TFD and removed, but I will address its content. I did not post this exclusively due to the personal problem I am having - I said that because that is probably the main reason why I have been highly aggravated and admittedly very uncivil in the past few weeks. I specifically said exactly what I am requesting, Writegeist has been writing defamation about me on his talk page after I requested that he no longer post on my talk page and told him that I would no longer post on his. He has continued to make remarks about me and defamatory material about me on his talk page, as I showed you in the diff. If he wants to report my uncivil behaviour he can report it here. I am asking for an interaction ban - it would only ban him from talking to or about me and me talking to him or about him. That is it.--R-41 (talk) 04:56, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

• Requesting an iban is pointless, because you can simply choose not to interact with someone if you wish. What you are actually asking for is some community sanction to be placed on Writegeist to proscribe him from talking about you on his talk page. I can't see how this is appropriate - I can only see a handful of mentions of you on his talk page and none of them constitute defamation as you claim. The diff you posted is a silly comment by him which doesn't really accomplish anything, but I can't see how it's uncivil really, he's entitled to his opinion. If you don't like what you read on his talk page, my simple suggestion would be not to go there. Just ignore it; who cares what he writes on his talk page? Basalisk ⁄_berate 05:04, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
  • What do I do if Writegeist interjects in a discussion that I am in, and posts comments that show every bad thing I have done in the discussion? He did this on WikiProject Yugoslavia. Am I supposed to run away from anything that I was at that he enters into? The definition of defamation on Misplaced Pages corresponds with what Writegeist did in the diff I posted here, the definition includes "the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image". I have ignored his earlier comments I noticed he made, but what he did write about me on his talk page about my editing behaviour is important to me, because it demonstrates he is carrying a grudge against me and I believe that measures should be taken so that he is not able to interject in further discussions I have, with the express intention of discrediting me or personally attacking me there.--R-41 (talk) 05:46, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Well if you want to get legalistic about it, it's not defamation because it's true. Look, you can't stop editors from posting diffs about your previous activity on wikipedia. If you feel this damages your reputation in some way then the best way to remedy it is to start acting constructively (and may I say that this ANI report isn't a good start). Look, you've mentioned already that you're having a tough couple of weeks; may I make the suggestion that maybe it's a good idea to take a break for a bit? Editing whilst in emotional turmoil isn't a great formula for progress. Basalisk ⁄_berate 06:07, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Writegeist has removed the section from their talk page. If you want to stop interacting with an editor -- just stop interacting. There's a whole slew of User:Nobody Ent/Secret list of editors I totally ignore editors who, over the years, I've concluded me interacting with will not help Misplaced Pages, so I just ignore them. It works so well I've actually forgotten most of who's on the list. Long term, what you'll find on Misplaced Pages is no one is much interested in assisting editors who themselves are not following appropriate practices. Given some of your recent posts e.g. it's in your best interests to keep a low profile rather than initiating posts on AN/I et. al. Nobody Ent 10:45, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

"it's in your best interests to keep a low profile rather than initiating posts on AN/I et. al." Damn straight, I already admitted here that I've been uncivil in past while due to frustration; I attempted to avoid this by asking Writegeist to desist from writing any further comments about me on his talk page, he refused to answer that. The difference between me and completely self-interested users is that I am willing to accept punitive action for my behaviours - so there is no need to warn me to "keep a low profile" - because I honestly don't care about WP:BOOMERANG - it will bounce back and forth between me and Writegeist for a while - and I fully admit that both me and Writegeist have been unacceptably uncivil to each other, I say go ahead and place an interaction ban on us - that's what I asked for and I said that I would accept it for myself - me and Writegeist do not like each other at all, we are both guilty of WP:UNCIVIL towards each other. Without warning or sanctions, it is likely that Writegeist will interject like he did at WikiProject Yugoslavia into topics I am addressing to attack me, so an interaction ban for both of us towards each other seems to be a completely reasonable action even for me, since as you say my behaviour has been intolerable. But since administrators do not agree with me, I will desist, but will note that I am normally a conscientious editor who seeks cooperation with others, the barnstar I have on my user page is from a user I disagreed with who congradulated me for my courteous behaviour in spite of our disagreement.--R-41 (talk) 11:48, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Have a cup of tea -- you should see all the "stuff" Writegeist has written about me, and kept on his user talk page for years now, in the belief that someone will believe his interpolations into old discussions. I rather think he keeps track of my every edit at times, and seems to show up in discussions simply because I am there <g> where he has never shown up before, but there is an essay on how to deal with such "preoccupied fellers" on Misplaced Pages. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:30, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

From what you say Writegeist has done, that sounds like WP:WIKIHOUNDING, but evidence would be needed to demonstrate that, but it seems entirely feasible and worth investigation since Writegeist has suddenly shown up on material about/or involving, you after having a substantial dispute with you, and him suddenly showing up on material about/or involving me. But beyond suggesting that you can open up an investigation, Collect, I will not endorse it because I do not know the background of what happened between you and Writegeist.--R-41 (talk) 12:50, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

For those here who have claimed that what I've complained here about is not significant, I will note a statement on policy about WP:HARASSMENT: Harassment can also include actions calculated to be noticed by the target and clearly suggestive of targeting them, where no direct communication takes place. That is what has taken place on Writegeist's user page, the diff demonstrates this, and upon being asked by me on whether he would desist from using his user page of deliberately posting sections that intend to portray me in a negative manner, Writegeist refused to respond to the question I made about it.--R-41 (talk) 13:03, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

As per a suggestion that a user who looked at my posts here has stated, he says that TFD is not an administrator, and that no administrators have arrived yet, and suggested that I use a boldface font requesting review by administrators. Therefore I will follow what that user advised me to do and request that administrators review my request for interaction ban: I am requesting review of this by administrators--R-41 (talk) 13:04, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:PERSONAL

I am reporting a WP:PERSONAL attack on me by User:Soapfan2013 and 219.79.90.44 for creating personal attacks for the way I handle my talk pages. Yes, it may not unorthodox, but I will close a conversation if I feel it is not in an unhealthy discussion place, and I do not want to violate WP:PERSONAL, which Soapfan has on numerous occasions. And it's gone on long enough. I'm tired of being attacked by people on this site who do not know me or do not like me. And I want something done about it.

Refer to these edits: 01 02 03

I do not appreciate being called a baby by users for the way I use my talk page. How I edit and code my talk page, etc. is how I do it to avoid conflict and keep me somewhat WP:CIVIL, which these users are not months/weeks following the small conflict between members and it keeps me calm and helps me walk away from situations which would prove volatile. I agreed to work with Soapfan on furthering their work in editing soap opera articles following a WP:SOCK case, and that faltered due to us being unable to work together in situations, and since then, they seem to be badgering me around things, and I do not appreciate such. I've had several IPs attack me several weeks ago, and it's deterring my wanting to edit here at Misplaced Pages. I've progressed a lot of soap opera articles by bringing notability and WP:V to them. And situations like this are really hinging that. I realize my past my not have been the most grey, but within the past 4-6 months, I've really been working on staying out of conflict, yet it seems to want to attract to me, especially from said member. I try to remain civil headed and clearheaded, and we all get caught up in a moment, hence why we're always advised to walk away, which is what I always tend to do. But people don't want to let it die, and I'm tired of it.

I've told Soapfan to no longer post on my talk page, and they refuse to comply and at this point, it's distressing that they have such a fixation on me. _{MusicFreak7676} 05:38, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I've blocked several of PJ/Soapfan2013/User:Onelifefreak2007's socks in the past. I've given him another chance with this account, because he'd been quiet for a while and seemed to be handling a return to editing well when I finally figured out that it was him editing. Posting this on Musicfreak7676 was unacceptable and I'm waiting for a response from him and am very much considering blocking him. That being said Musicfreak7676 you are constantly in violation of WP:Civil. You shouldn't have to close or archive discussions to keep yourself civil, you should just be nice. It's not like you're editing in regards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict here. It's soap operas. You get angry and threaten users with "being reported" whenever they make edits you disagree with. That you've found a sympathetic admin in Daniel Case is mind-boggling, because though you are often technically right your attitude is downright awful. AniMate 06:36, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, when I have people constantly down my back, like you, coming at me and making total judgement on me, my closing off arguments and discussions is how I handle it. It's how I resolve it and close it off and feel resolved, and keeps me from going back into the discussion. Yes, I may not have the best way of addressing things, I do not deny that, but I don't calling people babies, etc. And AniMate, I truly feel like you, as well, have a personal issue against me as you've made it clear you "watch" me. I feel as if you don't WP:Assume good faith around me. And AniMate, I'm a he, not a she. I'm not trying to create another conflict, I'm trying to end it. That's all I'm trying to do, so I can go on editing articles and making articles a better contribution to the site. I'm not doing to either to seem as superior to anyone, either. And I'm not saying that's what you're saying I may or may not be doing, I'm just doing this to stop this bull. _{MusicFreak7676} 06:41, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

My apologies about the gender confusion. I keep an eye on all of the soap opera articles and users. I've been active there and know the socks to look out for. Musicfreak, assume good faith is a two way street. You never seem to do so. Rather than leaving polite messages for those who make edits you disagree with, you almost always threaten to report them. That is not civil. That does not assume good faith. Rarely do threats of reports lead to cooperative editing. I watch you for the same reason I watch PJ, because you both have a history of treating other editors poorly. AniMate 07:01, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know, blocking a shared IP for 24 hours with no warnings for calling someone a baby seems a bit harsh, but whatever. I totally agree with AniMate's WP:PETARDic assessment, especially the bit where he mentions sympathetic behaviour over a sustained period by an admin who should know better. There are specific rules on how and where to request blocks and protections, and for good reasons. Neither MusicFreak nor Daniel Case were following them. 219.78.114.94 (talk) 08:03, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

• I've informed Daniel Case that this thread is also discussing him. May I remind people that if you criticise others here it is only polite to tell them. ϢereSpielChequers 09:15, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Heh. I would have, but his talk page is protected. Not a good start for a conversation, is it? 219.78.114.94 (talk) 09:32, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I have no problems with Daniel Case or his actions... I'm just rolling my eyes at the super friendly person he's taken under his wing. AniMate 10:05, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

When an editor asks another to stay away from their talkpage, that's usually considered appropriate - no matter what the reason is behind it - those who continue to post there after such a warning are usually guilty of some form of harassment (except admin actions, of course). If an editor chooses to close conversations on their talkpage rather than to be baited into arguments, that's also quite fine - commendable, actually. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:27, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Usually. Request is a more accurate description than warning. The close boxes are fine but not actually commendable -- archiving is preferred. Nobody Ent 10:54, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

It's a fine block. And there really aren't specific rules on Misplaced Pages -- we even have a rule that says that. Nobody Ent 10:54, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, not rules, but you know exactly what I mean. There definitely exist more appropriate channels than prodding your buddy admin, as explained in the policy of this site (here and here). This has the obvious (to me) advantage that such requests are dealt with more impartiality and fairness, and therefore situations like this are more unlikely to develop. 219.78.114.94 (talk) 12:04, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I've only gone to Daniel because I've been told by other members to go to Daniel, especially when it concerns soap articles. And whether I archive or close off conversations, it's how I do it. I archive every 3-4 months to keep it in my organization. I'm just irked at the fact that I've asked for PJ aka Soapfan to not post on my talk page because it's clear we cannot co-exist and work together. Our personalities do not match together. Recently I have been taking things to the vandalism report section, I have. And I've been using the warning template. And AniMate, instead of rolling your eyes, you should have come to me and told me you didn't find it appropriate that I was going to him. Simple as that. _{MusicFreak7676} 16:44, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

The way I see it is that you needed help understanding that your ways needed changing, too. And Daniel did not give you this help.

But that's OK, I think you eventually found it somewhere else and you are trying to better yourself. Cheers to that, and best wishes for the future. 219.79.73.157 (talk) 23:56, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Okay... well, I believe you're the IP that I originally reported hence you're obvious involvement. I didn't find anything anywhere, nor do I believe I needed help. This whole post wasn't about me learning anything, it was to stop the obvious harassment against me. _{MusicFreak7676} 00:53, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Sure mate, have it your way. But there must be a reason why you are getting so much shit, and i my view that is strongly related to how you treat other editors. 219.79.73.157 (talk) 01:22, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I frankly don't see the problem here. I thought the topic was simply that Musicfreak was attacked, not that his ethics were up for review. I have to say, early closure and archiving can be unorthodox and sometimes counterproductive, but that is purely on how he handles his talkpage, not why. Robby The Penguin (talk) (contribs) 01:36, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

History of Champagne RM closed by an involved admin

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This section was auto-archived without closure. IMO, the nature of this complaint is such that something or other should be done, so I am relisting.Kauffner (talk) 09:02, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Amatulic has an closed an RM at Talk:History_of_Champagne . There are several reasons why this action must be reversed and the issue reviewed by an uninvolved administrator:

1. "An editor who has previously closed a move request relating to the same article may not be seen as unbiased” (WP:RMCI). Amatulic closed a similar RM as “premature” several weeks ago.
2. "Any editor who has participated in a move discussion, either in support of the move or in opposition to it, will very likely not be seen as an unbiased judge of that discussion.” (WP:RMCI) Amatulic has referred to the proposed change as a “common lexical error”.
3. An admin is considered WP:INVOLVED if he has, “current or past conflicts with an editor". I have reported this issue to ANI previously. Amatulic has also made various accusations against me.

The direct involvement of editors affiliated with the champagne industry, who may have little experience on Wiki but understandably feel passionately with regard to this subject, creates a heightened potential for conflict for interest. I hope the discussion can be reopened and proceed while being monitored with appropriate rigor. Kauffner (talk) 13:01, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

It certainly seems inappropriate for Amatulic to close that RM. For the first two reasons rather than the third but inappropriate for sure. Perhaps he/she would consider reopening it before someone else does. --regentspark (comment) 13:09, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Anyone who looks at my contributions in this dispute can clearly see that I was not involved in any sense of WP:INVOLVED. Any "participation" on my part was to comment in an administrative capacity only, not to promote a point of view in the dispute. Any "current or past conflicts" were manufactured by Kauffner himself, and the past "accusations" were administrative in nature. Finally, the implication that I have anything to do with the champagne industry is similarly out of line.

As to the RM itself, it clearly went beyond its 7 days, and clearly the arguments showed no consensus. If any other admin would have closed it differently, I'd be interested to know the reasoning. ~Amatulić (talk) 13:19, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether you're involved or not but the appearance of involvement does exist because you closed it once before. If you've closed it once there really is no reason to close it again. Plenty of other admins out there. The simplest, drama reduction course of action is to reopen it and let someone else close it. --regentspark (comment) 13:24, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

No, that wouldn't reduce the drama, because the next closer would be a "drive-by admin". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 17:14, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Point taken.--regentspark (comment) 17:26, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Of course, Kauffner's upcoming block for beating the head horse well past the point of disruption well be a welcome sight for anyone who drinks either Champagne- or Bordeaux-styled wines - or indeed, anyone who edits such articles. Maybe Mosel is next? Rhine? Anything else? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:36, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Well I have to admit as a wine editor, Kauffner's actions have been a bit disruptive. We already went through a long, contentious discussion at the main Champagne article that failed to gain consensus last month. So soon after he goes after a peripheral article to get the title of History of Champagne (an article about both the wine and Champagne region, mind you) changed? What was his goal? To create internal inconsistency with both the Champagne article and the standard capitalization used on every other wine history article (see History of Chianti, History of Sherry, etc)? With so many reliable sources using the standard capitalization of Champagne, it is clear that there is no "threat" to Misplaced Pages that makes this battle worth raging on so many fronts for Kauffner. It just seems like a heavy-handed way for him to make a WP:POINT for something that less than a month ago he couldn't garner consensus for. Truly it would be nice to have a break from this or can we expect another go around next month on another peripheral article like Grower Champagne or Champagne in popular culture? Agne/ 16:48, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Re "an article about both the wine and Champagne region, mind you": This is not an accurate characterisation of that article. It starts off with "The history of Champagne has seen the wine evolve", indicating up front that the article is primarily about the wine. Whatever local history is in the article is included insofar as it can be made to relate directly to the wine. Granted, that may be partially because the wine is much of the region's history, but the fact remains that that article is primarily about the history of the wine. No comment on the rest of the dispute here. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:46, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Well not to threadjack this too far, but as the original author of this article I will point you to things like the 2nd and 5th paragraphs of the lead, the Early History and the World War I and II sections as well as numerous other places in the article where the history of Champagne the wine is closely intertwined with the history of the Champagne people and wine region. I wrote the article that way because that is how the reliable sources describe it. Truly only the small English influences and the even smaller From sweet to brut sections could be thought of as exclusively dealing with the wine but throughout the rest of the text it is clear that the history of the wine and the history of the region are deeply connected. Agne/ 22:10, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

It would appear that perhaps a topic ban from Wine and Wine-region related articles (broadly construed) might be a necessity for User:Kauffner as it appears his intent is to disrupt across the gamut. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:23, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

No, passion is not disruption. Disruption was caused by an unnecessary, premature second close of a discussion by the same admin. All that was required was to let it run it's course count the votes, determine consensus. If there is a pattern of disruption an WP:RFC/U would be in order. Nobody Ent 21:34, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Playing Russian-Roulette "WP:IDONTLIKEIT" when a decision is made is, indeed, disruptive. We have another editor on this project who's in deep water because he doesn't think diacritics belong in an English encyclopedia - now we have one who doesn't believe that city/region titles need to be capitalized. What a gigantic fuckup of the English language by both. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:51, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I think the disruptive parts of Kauffner's tactics (at least with wine articles) is the heavy-handed, backdoor ways he tries to jam his wishes through. With Champagne, when he first encountered differing opinions to his wish to lower case everything, he went ahead and did the edit anyways. He sort of rewrote WP:BRD into Discuss, find objections, Do it anyways which was terribly bad faith. Then after he encountered further difficulties in getting consensus to change the main Champagne article, he starts WP:FORUMSHOPping and going after these peripheral articles like History of Champagne--first in the middle of the original of the Champagne discussion and then a month after. One can only guess that he hopes that if he gets the right mix of WP:RM regulars at a moment when other editors who are concerned about his changes are busy with off-wiki life that he gets one of these backdoor consensus through--perhaps to intentionally create inconsistency among a mass of articles so that they may eventually have to succumb to his will. That, again, seems to be contrary to the Misplaced Pages spirit of building consensus and good faith editing. It's like an editor wanting to get the iPod article changed to Ipod and after failing to get consensus on that main article starts going after the iPad, iTunes and iPod mini, etc articles until eventually he gets his way. Agne/ 16:36, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps it is worth noting the that Amatulic originally got involved in this issue at Agne's request. I was surprised to discover that asking your favorite admin to close does not actually violate WP:ADMINSHOP. Kauffner (talk) 14:54, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

If I was actually asking my favorite admin to close, then yes it would. But as you can see by actually reading the diff I was asking for advice on how to deal with this in the most civil and responsible way--even if that meant walking away. See my last line "What are your thoughts on how best I should proceed? I greatly respect your opinion and if you think I should back down or go another path, I certainly will." I take pride in conducting myself WP:CIVILly and responsibly and after years of editing on Misplaced Pages, I know that when things get heated it is best to step aside and get an outside reality check. That is not adminshopping in the slightest. Agne/ 16:21, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Kauffner, that was a crass and rude comment to make ("asking your favorite admin"). Admin shopping means asking multiple admins until you get one that does what you want, not applicable here. Having worked with a specific admin before is not against policy. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:24, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Where did this come from? Anyway, you have a nice day, too. Kauffner (talk) 08:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment while I agree that it would be best if someone else had closed the discussion the closure itself seems sound. I don't really think there is any possibility of another admin not closing this as no consensus. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:40, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Nangparbat again and again and again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

user:86.129.42.0 please block Darkness Shines (talk) 14:45, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

User:Collect

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Collect (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Bush family

• First removes a table diff (with "rm non-RS source - genealogy from "personal research" is not considered reliable per se")
• --then removes its sourcing diff (with "rm ELs not chosen to present facts on the family genealogy per se" given as the rationale)

This violation of basic wp:EDIT page (esp. wp:PRESERVE) has the appearance of blatant vandalism.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 14:46, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Of course, you could have noted your problems with the Pratt Genealogy, the Pratt-Romney genealogy, the problems inherent in using SPS and not RS sourcing in genealogical material inserted into multiple articles, and, of cours, you could have asked me on my UT page about this, and even maybe have notified me of this. You didn't. Cheers. BTW, WP:PRESERVE does not remotely apply here, it refers to properly sourced material poorly presented etc. Note that there were repeated discussions about linking Huntsman to Mitt Romeny etc. in the past - and the general opinion was that genealogical stuff which is not strongly sourced is not encyclopedic. Collect (talk) 14:51, 9 June 2012 (UTC) Bush is no different - when making "genealogical claims" the same standards for sourcing apply as to any claims. The genealogical trivia contest should be considered pretty useless <g>. Collect (talk) 14:55, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi User:Hodgdon's secret garden - as per my understanding good faith edits WP:AGF are never ever blatant WP:Vandalism, perhaps you should retract that allegation - thanks - Youreallycan 14:58, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Note also that Kitty Kelley's book was the EL I removed - I suggest that a fair reading of WP:EL indicates that her piece was not related to the genealogy of the Bush family at all. Also please look at the mish-mash which is given as the "family tree" and consider whether it is sourced per WP:RS and also whether it has any remote encyclopedic value. Another of the "reliable sources" I removed was "Bush's Satanic & Witchcraft Bloodlines." ConspiracyPlanet.com. Thanks. Collect (talk) 15:11, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Could someone please explain how the rmvl of the sourcing to wp:RS Kelley / Random House could be in gd faith?--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 15:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

The place to go to is to assume it was and then discuss it - Bush's Satanic & Witchcraft Bloodlines." ConspiracyPlanet.com., hello!!! - IMO, there is nothing to see here that requires administration - I suggest a return to discussion on the article talkpage is far preferable to this location.Youreallycan 15:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

(ec)First - her book is not about the genealogy. It offers no material about the genealogy which is not present in the article, thus is not valid as an EL. Second - the material in the book was widely criticised as being specifically unreliable (the one major exception to RS standards is where the source has been widely shown to be unreliable - which is the case here). Cheers - but there is no valid rationale for using Kitty Kelley as a reference for genealogy at all. BTW, the article is subject to WP:BLP rules. Collect (talk) 15:21, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Please re-read wp:EDIT. Whereas this page indicates that sourcing issues can reasonably be template:Fact-tagged, it plainly says only to delete controversial assertions. Nothing in the chart you removed is in dispute.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 15:32, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

User Maunus Censoring Race (Human Classification)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Maunus has edited into the Cluster Analysis section the view of philosopher Joseph Kaplan that human geographic genetic variation does not cluster, because the sampling is wrong and the plotting algorithm contains assumptions. The Human Genome Organisation released a study in 2009 which found that human geographic genetic variation does cluster, using high resolution sampling and assumption free PCA. Maunus wants that take out. Which one should we go with? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:630:12:1072:EC7D:4743:C486:6971 (talk) 15:57, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

This isn't the forum for a content dispute - this is for behavior issues. You should head to WP:DRN. - Jorgath (talk) 16:06, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Yes to first, no to the second ... start with Talk:Race_(human_classification). Edit warring warnings to both editors... Nobody Ent 16:14, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

BOOOOOMERANGG!!. Page protected, OP blocked. Elockid 18:05, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

This was almost certainly Mikemikev. Edits from Imperial College London with usual vocabulary, usual article. Mathsci (talk) 18:11, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Archivesharer redux 2.0

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Please see here and here for past reports. A user 24.97.221.98 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) now seems to be following this issue by editing the archives, dunno if it's the same user or a meatpuppet. There was consensus to ban previous not no action on that. Cheers, Яehevkor ✉ 17:07, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Forgot to include the difs and . Яehevkor ✉ 21:34, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

IP blocked as a WP:GIANTDUCK, restored the ban discussion for closing below. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:32, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Ban proposal of paid editing sockpuppeteer

Cross-posting this here because this is where instances of the behaviour have previously turned up: there is currently a proposal to formalise the de facto ban of a paid editing sockpuppeteer over at the administrators' noticeboard. WilliamH (talk) 18:25, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

It's actually at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Editing ban proposal -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Someone refactored my original header. WilliamH (talk) 21:22, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Unequal treatment from an admin

Hello,

This is regarding recent exchange of messages on talk pages User_talk:Thisthat2011 (own), User_talk:Yogesh_Khandke, and User_talk:Boing!_said_Zebedee (admin). The issue also involves a user User:Sitush.

The admin had warned me here(User_talk:Thisthat2011#June_2012) of 'personal attacks on other people', 'constant snide attacks on User:Sitush', and then block here over a discussion here(User_talk:Yogesh_Khandke#For_admin_Dougweller.27s_attention).

On inquiring details on how he reached these conclusion to give warning, he has avoided presenting details and is accusing further 'so please stop trying to stir the shit on one side only'. It appears somehow to be personal attack sweetened with a 'please', a behavior himself warned me against.

He had done something similar earlier User_talk:Thisthat2011/Archive_1#March_2012 here too, which he immediately rectified himself.

So I would like to know why he is warning to myself, but has avoided warning himself and user:Sitush for exactly doing the same. The behavior is inconstant w.r.t. users.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 19:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I was not acting in an admin capacity in that exchange, and so there is no question of my having misused my admin tools. The issue here is not one my my taking sides - as I make clear, I am carefully avoiding taking sides in the dispute, which is between Sitush and Yogesh. But you have been making low-level snide attacks against Sitush ever since you have been here, in disputes that do not involve you. If you have a problem with his behaviour, make a report at to the appropriate venue - as Sitush says, put up or shut up. Now, what admin action do you want taken here? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:27, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

So he templated you, then had second thoughts so struck it instead of deleting it, expressed opinions about your actions. He didn't cover it up, he struck it, which I consider the honest way of correcting a mistake (or change of heart, or whatever), as he isn't trying to cover up the fact that he originally said it. He used the phrase so please stop trying to stir the shit on one side only, which clearly isn't a personal attack, even if it is more crudely worded than perhaps you or I would use. "Stirring the pot" is a common English expressions, used here frequently. It clearly isn't an admin action issue as no tools were used and no administrative sanctions were mentioned. It appears you never tried to bring up the issue on his talk page before coming here, and incidentally, you are supposed to do before coming here, per the top of this very page. It does look like you were stirring the pot on the talk page of Yogesh_Khandke, but I don't have the whole backstory, so maybe you had a good reason to say what you said, and/or maybe he had a good reason to say something about it, but no one did or said anything "action-worthy". I don't see any abuse here, just two editors that disagree. So, what exactly is your point, and why are we here at ANI? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:04, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps a new essay should be written. Misplaced Pages: Stirring the pot. Robby The Penguin (talk) (contribs) 02:10, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

On my page there is a warning of a ban. Is the warning from an admin, an editor, an observer?

As also, I had asked the admin on my page reasons for his warning. He is still silent on these questions, inspite of messages on his talk page to answer, and still passing 'low-level snide remarks' such as 'But you have been making low-level snide attacks against Sitush ever since you have been here' - is this not a 'low level snide' accusation from an admin?

Is putting forth a question of violating AGF a low-level snide remark that calls for a warning of a ban? Is the user saying that if there is a dispute, no one else should comment?इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 06:23, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

What the user is saying is perfectly clear on your talk page - because I said it in plain English. Since you have been here, you have been stirring the shit against Sitush by constantly taking sides against him in disputes he has with other editors - typically you have been supporting other tendentious POV-pushing battlefield editors. Sitush has been putting in massive amounts of hard work to fix the appallingly bad articles created and edited by a number of Indian caste warriors and other nationalists whose only aim is to shower their own castes with praise and turn many articles into glorifying puffery. And he has been getting little but grief for it - running from outright egregious attacks, to your style of constant snide digs at him. You are part of the problem here with India-related articles, you are not part of the solution - if you wish to contribute constructively to Misplaced Pages, you should be helping the editors who are doing all the work of fixing things, not hindering and harassing them as you are constantly trying to do with Sitush. I'll repeat again, if you believe Sitush's behaviour is problematic, put up or shut up by raising a report at the appropriate venue instead of constantly nipping at his heels. And again, what admin action are you asking for here? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:43, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

PS: I should also note that the editors you support are frequently those who get blocks and bans for their own behaviour, as is the case this time.

PPS: Putting a standard templated warning on a user talk page is not an admin action - any editor can do so. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:49, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

You have not answered questions that I had put forth upon your warning. You have avoided answering it twice, repeating past accusations but not bothering to answer how a question of violating AGF automatically means constant snide remarks, and so on. If you want to warn, be ready to answer how an inquiry on violating AGF automatically means anything. Otherwise drop the bone for all its meaning, and let other admins comment.

I am not sure of the admin action, but the title says it all. It is unequal treatment from the admin that is a matter of concern. If you notice the talk page, Yogesh_Khandke has also requested you "to address the issues such as hounding and complete lack of civility and constant heckling without any provocation on the part of the concerned editor." Selective warning and actions and selective silence is not civil per me, especially on the part of someone who is admin.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 10:18, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I have answered your question by explaining that it is your general continued low-level sniping that is the problem, not one specific action - and I can't help it if you cannot understand that. Also, the dispute is between Sitush and Yogesh, not you, and I am being even-handed in that by recusing myself from acting on it because I do not believe I am sufficiently uninvolved with the two of them. Now, if you can not point to any abuse of admin tools on my part, and are not asking for any admin action, then I have better things to do with my time - bye. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:29, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Boing! said Zebedee you cannot call it shit stirring, is it wrong to be part of a dispute. You mentioned on the ThisThat’s talk page Sitush and Yogesh are grown up enough and know each other well enough by now to conduct their own disputes and to seek neutral help with resolution if they need it - so please stop trying to stir the shit on one side only. Well if two users have some dispute and if they wanted to resolve it among themselves they would have discussed it somewhere else not on wikipedia, many times disputes are resolved by discussions which involve more than one editors(else no one would put pages on watch list). No one is having any doubts about Sitush’s hard work in cleaning up caste articles I have personally noticed Sitush putting great effort in cleaning a lot of articles. If you say that ThisThat should stop anti-Sitush bias I would request you to atop anti-thisthat bias and stop warning him for doing nothing.Do not call him a part of a problem just because he is bold enough to point out a problem/mistake P.S Not sure why you mentioned caste related articles here I don’t see thisthat editing many articles related to caste sarvajna (talk) 09:50, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

If they're "grown up enough" then they should just fricking do it, and stop the sniping or else a) someone else will bring it up, and/or b) someone else will stop it. Misplaced Pages is not the place for such childish bullshit, and Boing was absolutely right in notifying the editor that he saw as the prime instigator. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:21, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I am afraid you are wrong, I can say that Thisthat wanted to clear the dispute so he did a right thing. I am not sure whom are you referring as prime instigator I hope its not Thisthat as he entered the dipute very late and thus cannot be an Instigator. Misplaced Pages is not a place for childish bullshit of warning people just because they were part of a dispute and tried to help the someone whom they thing are on the right side sarvajna (talk) 10:44, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

It would be best if all participants in this discussion walk away without insisting on the last word.Nobody Ent 11:11, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

North American League

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Not sure if this is the right place to report this, but User:NostalgiaBuff97501 attempted to create a disambiguation page at North American League. I have no issue with this, but instead of moving the original page (and the associated edit history) to North American League (baseball), the user simply copy and pasted the page content to the new page and then edited the original page as seen by this diff. Basically what is needed is for the new page to be deleted, the original page reverted to the baseball content and then moved back to North American League (baseball). Once this is done, then the disambiguation page can be created at North American League. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 19:45, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I believe I've managed to sort things out. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:33, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

User:Joshtaylor1998 at Mercia

This is a new user who is making substantial changes to the Mercia article - all unreferenced, unencyclopedic, ungrammatical, etc. I've reverted him a couple of times, with warning edit summaries, and a warning on his talk page. He has not responded at all, but has continued to make edits. I would hazard a guess that his user name reflects his year of birth - his edits suggest that he is a young and enthusiastic user, but someone who is unwilling to engage in discussion. It's not vandalism, so I'm reluctant to revert again, but it would be useful if someone could take a look and try to persuade the editor that he needs to learn how to edit collaboratively. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:55, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Archivesharer redux

In relation to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive754#user:Archivesharer. The indef blocked user is now back with the IP 68.174.69.145 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) doing the same old re-factoring edits etc, see their contributions. For what it's worth, I also added to the SPI. Яehevkor ✉ 23:49, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I've semi-protected User talk:Archivesharer for a month and blocked the IP as a WP:DUCK for a week. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:57, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, The Bushranger. Яehevkor ✉ 11:24, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the contribs, he also removed any mention of Michael de la Force from WP:BLP/N, which can't simply be Undone due to changes afterwards. I'm going to go through and try to fix his "courtesy blanking," since it's nothing of the sort. — The Hand That Feeds You: 12:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

May de la Force be with you. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 17:16, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

And now this and this from 156.111.18.140 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Legal threats? Яehevkor ✉ 17:18, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Recommend blocking the IP as the language borders legal threats.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 17:41, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Now this and this (with personal attacks) and continuing. Яehevkor ✉ 17:47, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I've manually archived the BLP/N thread here, so it can be watchlisted for further vandalism. Also, the IP claims to be using Columbia University's computer system, so an email to one of their sysadmins might be prudent. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:07, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

They seem to be back as Globalenquirer (talk · contribs), editing the archived comment. - SudoGhost 13:48, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Ban proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Given the fact that Archivesharer (talk · contribs) and his band of merry socks, IP and otherwise, are determined to keep returning over this incredibly WP:LAME name-removal issue, issuing repeated legal threats, vandalising, and displaying an epic level of WP:IDHT (including now claiming, regarding his supposed client, that it is "Not possible for an American to have this name" - !!!), I propose that Archivesharer (and his socks of renown) be determined to be community banned from en.wikipedia.

• Support as proposer. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:32, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
• Support. The net worth of this user is disruption.
  ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 15:37, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
• Support. User has a severe lack of WP:CLUE and a bad case of WP:IDHT. Once the article on Michael de la Force was deleted, Archivesharer decided he could remove any mention of Mr. de la Force, including on the AfD page, BLP/N and even user Talk pages. I'm having to watch the relevant BLP/N archive because, as expected, Archivesharer created a sock just to remove mention of de la Force from it. This user obviously does not understand what he's doing, and refuses to listen to advice. — The Hand That Feeds You: 15:58, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

  I've semiprotected the archive page. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 16:34, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oddly for someone who has a "desire to have not be a part of or included in Misplaced Pages or the Wikimedia Foundation" , he does not seem to object to using Commons as his hosting service . Voceditenore (talk) 17:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
• Obvious support. Nothing of use has come from this person. Яehevkor ✉ 23:00, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
• Support from my IPhone, no less. Disclosure: I weighed in on this nonsense as an IP. For several weeks this has wasted the time of numerous editors. Also support contacting Columbia, with copies of disruptive edits made from the university's facilities. This would be appropriate given the multiple statements implying that Columbia was considering legal action against Misplaced Pages-- the university ought to be informed of these claims, and have the opportunity to find the user. JNW (talk) 02:14, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Shearonink (talk) 21:02, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

• Restored this from archiving, can an uninvolved admin close this? Thanks. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:31, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Perth

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A recent WP:RM (initiated by myself) from Perth, Western Australia to Perth was closed by JHunterJ (talk · contribs) as "moved", and the page was moved. A short time later, Deacon of Pndapetzim (talk · contribs) reversed this closure and moved the article back.

See Talk:Perth, Western Australia#Requested_move for some subsequent discussion between JHunterJ and Deacon of Pndapetzim.

There are a few problems with this action by Deacon of Pndapetzim:

1. The usual procedure would be to take it to Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Closure review. Doing an instant reversal in this way is wheel-warrish. (Also, it is bad form to edit a archived move discussion with a prominent "Please do not modify" in red at the top)
2. Deacon of Pndapetzim has a userbox indicating membership in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Medieval Scotland. Since Perth, Scotland was a former capital of medieval Scotland, and Perth, Scotland was the "rival" of Perth, Australia as WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in the WP:RM discussion, this at least creates the outward appearance of possibly having a personal stake in the outcome, and for this reason alone it may have been an unwise action.
3. In his reversal comment, Deacon of Pndapetzim appears to question JHunterJ's integrity by stating "Previous close sounds too much like a support and too little like an impartial close."

See also this note by JHunterJ regarding the formulation of his closure summary comments.

I would ask an uninvolved and impartial administrator to restore the original closure outcome of the WP:RM and move the page back to Perth, and then anyone who wishes may naturally start a review at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Closure review. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 23:57, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Did Deacon remove Perth without any explanation? That seems highly suspicious. Robby The Penguin (talk) (contribs) 00:26, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, now it seems Deacon did have an explanation. Deacon stated in this thread on JHunter's talk page that there was no consensus and the overturn was justified. Upon reviewing the discussion on the Perth talk page, it clearly shows that there was no consensus, with a hodgepodge of supports and opposes. I have to say, I think Deacon was justified in overturning the closure. Robby The Penguin (talk) (contribs) 01:21, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Deacon is definitely right. There was no preponderance of opinions either way, and when a discussion is split 50/50, you can't declare consensus one way or the other. Nyttend (talk) 01:30, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

And this isn't wheel warring, it was a single revert. It doesn't happen that often, but it is acceptable and it was explained. JHunterJ or others can take it to Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Closure review if they so choose, but nothing improper happened here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 01:35, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

D should have taken it to Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Closure review. As I've explained, WP:NOTVOTE, WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, and WP:RMCI indicate a move -- the !votes that were based on Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies were a consensus for the move. -- JHunterJ (talk) 01:45, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

That is one option, reverting is the other. You and I might prefer someone go to review rather than revert us on an RM or AFD or other discussion, but I don't see a policy against this type of reversion, so I conclude it is acceptable sometimes but subject to review like any other administrative action. The problem is, this is ANI, not review, and not the proper place to discuss whether or not the close is proper or not, or the revert is proper or not. If you think it was clearly abuse, sure, ANI is fine but I find it hard to believe that a single revert is abuse, and review is the much better, calmer place to review the situation. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:13, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, hoping the drama would be minimal here. This was a case of a highly controversial discussion, clearly having reached no consensus, being closed in favour of one particular view and being reviewed afterwards. Moreover, one to which the closer expressed a preference in the close rather than, as he is supposed to, summarize discussion and carry out whatever its conclusion is. I think my closure should be relatively uncontroversial. No admin with any relevant experience could seriously claim that this discussion had consensus (see my comments on the page in question).

PS, there is no established procedure for reversing RM closes, but neither is RM a binding process that would necessitate one; it is perfectly normal for page moves to be reversed when they are made in this fashion. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:33, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I am an admin with impartiality and experience and the serious claim. You are an admin member of a Scotland project who disagrees with my closure. Stop insinuating that that could only possibly have occurred if I suffer from some admin character defect. -- JHunterJ (talk) 01:49, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

This is certainly tough, as two Wikiprojects are contested. From an uninvolved view, I have to agree with Deacon. Closing a debate with no consensus and redirecting in one side's favor is clearly out of order. This seems to be very WP: BOOMERANGish. Robby The Penguin (talk) (contribs) 01:56, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

@J, I'm not really sure my academic interests should really be a topic of focus here, but I do not wish to imply any "character defect", and am sorry if it is taken in such a way. At issue here is not anyone's academic interest, but whether or not a particular discussion had consensus. The community would be best served, I think, if you focused on that. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:59, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

People should stop throwing this scottish thing around as the majority of opposers are actually australiains, many of whoom reside in Perth, Western Australia. The thing is this has been discussed for most the last 10 years and there has never been a clear consensus, to close either way on what isnt a clear consensus is just creating unnecessary drama any admin can see that the status quo works and has consensus and has had for a considerable time the "new" proposal hasnt shifted that consensus. Gnangarra 02:40, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

It was a bit "glass houses" for Deacon to question whether JHunterJ was being impartial. Even if you do argue that the reversal was procedurally correct, it really shouldn't have been Deacon who did it, because it could be inferred rightly or wrongly that his academic interests may make Perth, Scotland a primary topic for him within his own personal cognitive sphere. The optics of it are the issue. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 03:08, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Agree that D shouldnt have reversed the move, but its worng to say this is just a dispute based on racial lines because it aint when many Australians dont support the move, its more a matter of timing. That said the closure wasnt clear and wasnt reflective of the discussion as it should be discussed, but while others are running around making changes it creates a hostile discussion. The last comment by J on the matter indicates that he also question his decision. Gnangarra 03:24, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• One last time, Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Closure review is the proper venue, NOT WP:ANI. This is beyond the scope here folks. It needs the slower, calmer venue of review, not the drama of ANI as this doesn't appear to be abuse, but instead a disagreement on a close, the reason Review exists. This should be closed and moved over there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:16, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Closure review The following is a proposed Misplaced Pages policy, guideline, or process. The proposal may still be in development, under discussion, or in the process of gathering consensus for adoption. no one can say that that is the proper place, so please refrain from directing people to policy and processes that have not been accepted by the community. Gnangarra 02:50, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
    • Judging by the talk page, it appears they are ready enough to go. ANI isn't the right place regardless, so if you have a better venue, please suggest it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:54, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
      • there is no discussion indicating that unapproved Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Closure review is being used, please stop misinforming everyone Gnangarra 03:24, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
        • That is, in fact, the proper place for that discussion. And if it isn't, I believe WP:DRN is. Is there any reason this shouldn't be closed?. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:29, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• fruitful and cordial discussion is occuring at User_talk:JHunterJ#Perth please close this and raise concerns there so that everyone is on the same page Gnangarra 03:27, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
  • That works too. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:30, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
    • Please keep or raise this discussion somewhere other than my talk page as needed. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:58, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comments:

1. I do not agree with those who claim that the proper forum is Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Closure review. As pointed out above, it is not adopted as a policy or a guideline. In my opinion (expressed early at the talkpage), the page is nowhere near ready for adoption. In particular, it was diverted at the outset by an editor with an axe to grind concerning non-admin closures. The provisions for such closures remain vague on the page, but it has has been manipulated toward normalising a position that has not been subjected to wide or searching scrutiny.
2. JHunterJ has frequently closed RMs without consideration of detailed and clearly articulated arguments, and sometimes cited evidence that has been comprehensively dismissed by counter-evidence and cogent arguments. He has edited relevant policy, naming conventions, or guidelines (sometimes without any discussion toward consensus, or apparent assessment of existing consensus), and then applied those provisions in deciding RMs, sometimes counter to the weight of numbers and the weight of argument in the associated RM discussion.
3. I agree with the assessment by Deacon of Pndapetzim, who I believe acted with complete propriety in this case. He did not begin a process of wheel warring. If anyone did, it was Kwami who reverted a perfectly well-argued administrative action of review. But I do not censure Kwami, who appears to have acted as he saw best and with some circumspection.
4. I hope that JHunterJ will rethink his attitude and his actions, and find something more constructive to do than push what is obviously a particular and partisan view of priorities among vigorously contested provisions at WP:AT, WP:DAB, and related pages. Especially, he should not act so that the energy, time, and talents of knowledgeable editors participating at RM discussions is squandered. For my part, I have stopped participating because of his presence. Life is too short.

Noetica 03:29, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

RPP/AFD backlog

Just FYI... There's a long backlog at WP:RPP. A couple of items have been waiting for attention for almost two days. Zagalejo^^^ 00:19, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• AFD as well ... I've knocked off most of the backlog, but there are still 20-odd outstanding. Black Kite (talk) 02:29, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Phony use of a citation by a longtime administrator

I have organized this report into four sections: SUMMARY, REASONS, DOCUMENTATION, and APPENDIX.

SUMMARY. A longtime administrator User:Kwamikagami (or "Kwami", as he often signs himself) made an insertion that he supported with a phony citation. Here it is:
before: Kerala is often referred to as Keralam by the native Malayalis.
after: Kerala is pronounced Kēraḷaṁ (listen) by the native Malayalis.

Any reader would interpret the new sentence as saying that the inserted phonetic transcription is being sourced to the footnoted book. But the book does not contain any such material. (Moreover, the transcription is rife with inaccuracies both notational and factual (although one of Kwami's specialties at Misplaced Pages is IPA transcription) and it had never been sourced in all the years that it (or variants) had been appearing in the article.) * * * End of Summary * * *

REASONS FOR lodging this incident report. One month after he made the insertion in question, I reverted it, unaware of who had made it. Within one day, after discussion on the Talk page, Kwami (although not other editors) accepted my changes. But at that point I still didn't realize the old insertion had improprieties because I hadn't done deep investigation into its supporting footnote and into the article history. (All I had done was replace the old source.) Eventually two things happened. It slowly dawned on me that the flaws in the insertion could not be explained by mere inattention, and then this week, Kwami weighed in on a current complaint to AN/I about my own citation practice in a different article. All this plus Kwami's strong bias against me (next paragraph), and because as an admin he should operate at higher standards, are the reasons while I now feel it urgent to make this complaint.

The same administrator has denounced me aggressively twice in recent months. Just last month, he participated on an article talk page to threaten me with being blocked (Talk:Russian_phonology#Discussion, 21:10, 12 May 2012 (UTC)). Two months prior to the edit in question, this administrator totally lost his temper at me and established that he is hugely biased against me (Talk:Diasystem#Reply_to_declared_dispute_resolver, 15:51, 1 March 2012 (UTC) and 00:10, 2 March 2012 (UTC)). Now he has just commented against me at AN/I about the same Russian phonology article as prior, 01:02, 9 June 2012.

DOCUMENTATION. The administrator User:Kwamikagami made an insertion into the article, Kerala in mid April 2012. Kerala is a one of the states of India. For many years, the opening sentence has contained a phonetic transcription of how to say the name. For six years, the attribution ("sourcing") of the phonetic transcription was unsatisfactory, because there wasn't any attribution (a situation I myself rectified in mid May 2012). Although Kwami did not create this situation, he made it worse. Over the years, there was vacillation as to whether the transcribed pronunciation was that of Keralites or of English speakers (probably Britons). There was never an indication given in the article as to which community's pronunciation was being represented (sometimes such an indication was given in the edit summary), AND, the phonetic transcriptions changed over time, AND, citations were never offered. (The native pronunciation of the letter 'e', , is close to the vowel in 'day', 'say', whereas the transcription inserted for many years, , is the much more open-mounted vowel of the British Received Pronunciation pronunciation as in 'hair'.)

Also for many years, there has been an insertion that Keralites call the state 'Keralam' instead. Until 2009, this insertion, too, was unsupported. The latter claim is just a claim that Keralites add an 'm' at the end, and did not include a phonetic transcription.

What administrator Kwamikagami did at 19:36, 15 April 2012 is that he moved the then current phonetic transcription from the article lead to the existing passage which claimed 'Keralam', then without justification, he augmented the transcription with the false claim that it is the inhabitants' pronunciation, AND he arranged the sentence so as to create the impression that his insertion was sourced by the footnote already long in place to substantiate the 'Keralam' claim). In an associated edit just three hours later, 22:34, he inserted a different transcription in the opening sentence, in the gap created by the prior edit. The differentness of the transcriptions, along with a remark he made a month later (see below) prove he believed that the transcription of 22:34 was an English language one, although this is never stated AND no citation is offered for it.

Here is his change made at 19:36:
before: Kerala is often referred to as Keralam by the native Malayalis.
after: Kerala is pronounced Kēraḷaṁ (listen) by the native Malayalis.

The chief misdeed here is that while the new text is most reasonably interpreted as citing "Freiberger" as the source of the transcription, "Freiberger" is not its source. The "Freiberger" footnote, in place for three years, asserted only that the locals add 'm' to the end of the word. In fact, the only "authority" for Kwami's insertion is that it was present in the article, unsourced, for many years.

In any case, this phonetic transcription was incorrect. Not only are syllable stresses wrong and the vowels transcribed into IPA wrong, the dotted 'L' is transcribed into IPA wrong. The dot indicates the sound is retroflex, but Kwami's IPA transcription uses the wrong IPA symbol! This from an editor who specializes in updating IPA transcriptions! His transcription even overlooks the 'm' that supposedly distinguishes the inhabitants' version of the name!

Granted, there are multiple interpretations of what Kwamikagami's intentions and responsibility are. Perhaps it's plausible that his intention was not for readers to associate the longstanding "Freiberger" footnote with Kwami's inserted phonetic transcription, but to associate it only with the longstanding content it had always been associated with. But this interpretation is unreasonable (given the content of the previous passage as well as its longtime stability, and given how Kwami laid out the footnote). Besides, even if this interpretation were correct, it would entail that Kwami deliberately inserted a claim that has no basis.

An interpretation even more difficult to defend is that this lapse was an oversight. (1) The bad insertion stood for one month, unchallenged. (2) Kwami is not a casual Wikipedian who edits rarely and fleetingly, rather he's one of the most active among us. (3) He chides other editors on the insufficiency of their sourcing. (4) He's a longtime administrator. (5) At first, he swiftly did a global revert of every insertion I had made simultaneous to the one about the phonetic transcription -- incidentally, without acknowledging he was doing so -- which in itself is a misdeed when committed by an administrator. (However, he did relent after I posted a discussion on the Talk page..) For him to restore the original insertion is inconsistent with the interpretation that he had meant to change it but never got around to doing so. Please notice that in making this restoration, he did demonstrate inattentiveness in two ways. First, he still didn't catch the two whoppers I mentioned above, the missing 'm' and the bad 'L' symbol! Second, regarding his rationale that the English pronunciation of a foreign name customarily precedes the native at Misplaced Pages, the article contained no indication that the pronunciation he claimed is native, is so.

Incidentally, the invocation of "Oliver Freiberger" was not a proper citation because Freiberger is the editor of a collective volume -- that's why I have been putting the name in scare quotes all along. A proper footnote would use the name of the author of the chapter where the cited material appeared (the cited material being the claim of 'Keralam'). This is of course a minor point, but Kwami is supposedly a citation "hawk" (diligent auditor). It would strongly imply he committed the prevalent Misplaced Pages crime of not checking the citation for proper form and for content. Of course, if he did check it, if he did find it through Google Books as I did, then he incontrovertibly became aware it did not support his insertion.

APPENDIX Partial edit history of the article Kerala relevant to this complaint, only for people who think it's important, which doesn't include me).
(a) 16 Jan 2006. User Saravask inserts a phonetic transcription of 'Kerala', apparently, the first in the history of the article. Text: Kerala (IPA: .
(b) as of 01:56, 10 March 2006. User Saravask amended his own IPA transcription. Text: Kerala (IPA: .
(c) as of 23:17, 13 March 2006. User:Saravask amended his own IPA transcription. Text: Kerala (IPA: . ES: (use native pronunciation (nasalization, suprasegmentals, etc); gm; clarify chart caption)
(d) as of 19:35, 27 April 2006. User:Saravask (talk | contribs) amended his own IPA transcription. Text: Kerala (<\/span>"},"data":{"ipa":"","text":"","lang":"en","wikibase":"","file":"Kerala.ogg"},"classes":}">. ES: (Audio file "{{{1}}}" not found)
(e) as of 07:12 1 July 2006. User:Grammatical error changed Saravask's transcription. Text: Kerala (<\/span>"},"data":{"ipa":"","text":"","lang":"en","wikibase":"","file":"Kerala.ogg"},"classes":}"> (Anglicised) or (native). ES: added native pronunciation.
(f) 2 Jan 2007, IPA transcription had been changed to .
(g) Sometime between 11 May 2008 and 22 Jun 2008, a separate section, Etymology was created.
(h) 26 November 2009. User:Caughingjoe inserts reference "Freiberger" to support the claim that the natives say 'Keralam' instead of Kerala'. This claim had been in the article since at least 5 December 2005.
(i) 19:36 15 April 2012. User:Kwamikagami wrongly associated the "Freiberger" footnote with a detailed phonetic transcription.
(j) 22:23 16 May 2012. Dale Chock (that's me), citing a grammar of the Malayalam language, removed a phonetic transcription from the section, Etymology and amended the transcription in the lead sentence to native pronunciation.
(k) 01:52, 17 May 2012. Kwamikagami globally reverted me with the ES: "undo: that's not a "correction", that's a different language. English first on WP-en." In fact, instead of putting English first in the lead, he made it English only. (At Misplaced Pages, it is common practice to include the native pronunciation of names in the opening sentence.)
(l) Two minutes later. Kwami slightly amended his transcription (using updated markup to produce the same result).
(m) 15:23, 17 May 2012. I restored my edits with the ES, "Restore factual enhancements on prehistory and pronunciation. Restore Infobox heading. Clean up citations. See two new sections on talk page."

• * * End of Appendix * * * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dale Chock (talk • contribs) 22:21, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

• The above post clearly evidences lack of assumption of good faith and battleground mentality. A cursory review of the OP's contributions will show that this is a consistent pattern.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:24, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

A bit of WP:TLDR in there too. I feel like there might be a valid content concern buried somewhere in there and perhaps WP:ECCN would be a better venue (or the article talk page of course). SÆdon 02:29, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Dale, you're welcome to fix any errors. I didn't read your complaint past the summary (way TLDR), but the problem arose because the India project decided to remove all native script from geography articles, and several people implemented the decision badly. In this case (as in several others), the result was that we claimed the English pronunciation of Kerala was , which was not true. I moved the pronunciation down where I thought it would be more appropriate, rather than simply deleting it. — kwami (talk) 02:38, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• 1. If your AN/I posting comes to 12,522 characters, you might want to stop and ask yourself if maybe you're talking too much. and 2. I don't see a signature on that wall o' text. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:25, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• This feels like a tempest in a teacup; I don't see any evidence of any wrongdoing here, no evidence of deliberate bad faith or anything like that. I see nothing to be done here at all. --Jayron32 03:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment

Actually, we may have more than just a lack of assumption of good faith here. The Kerala thing happened a month ago; Dale didn't said anything until I responded to an edit war of his on Russian phonology, where he was making an unsupported (though very possibly correct) edit against sources. In that discussion he said I had it in for him, though frankly I didn't remember who he was at the time, and now he's using this ANI posting as evidence against my character in that debate, in an argument he added after the debate had been archived. Since I'm a minor party to that and it's now linked to this ANI complaint, perhaps I'm not the one to revert his additions to an archived talk page. — kwami (talk) 04:08, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I noticed a similar occurrence when I suggested at Wikiquette Assistance that his behavior at Diasystem was WP:OWNy and he has since taken to either accusing me of article ownership or implying as much by saying I'm the most significant contributor to this or that article.

I've un-archived the other thread. — Ƶ§œš¹ 06:06, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Personal attacks after being warned by User:Mishae

Mishae has been told multiple times not to make personal attacks like calling editors scum and calling them fascists. He has responded to his most recent warning by writing "...If it offends you, and don't want to see it just ignore it! Is it that hard? My other suggestion would if you will just cut both of your eyes out, that might prevent you from seeing my pointless edits, and other crap that I do, that you don't like..." . The editor has shown a high level of incompetence, i.e. arguing after he was told to stop removing persondata (User talk:Mishae#Persondata) and tries to excuse himself by claiming that he is Russian and has Autism . I personally think an indef block is needed for personal attacks after warnings were given, an unwillingness to accept consensus, and an unwillingness to receive advice. Ryan Vesey Review me! 04:46, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Wow yeah, I support an indef block for either WP:CIR or WP:NPA, admin's choice. SÆdon 04:49, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

It is difficult for me to support a block considering he has created 664 articles; however, I cannot justify allowing someone to continue editing after they have told an editor to "cut both of your eyes out". Ryan Vesey Review me! 04:52, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

While we by default often allow good content creators a little leeway, what he said to you was so unacceptable that it can't be excused by positive contribs. Indefinite, as you know, is not infinite, but he needs to be blocked until he accepts and understands that kind of behavior is unacceptable - Russian autistic or not. SÆdon 04:57, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

(Said to PamD) Right, that's why I brought it here, I was just remarking on how I dislike these situations. The final aspect is the fact that he was fully aware that it would get him blocked. "Altough I don't want to be blocked by using threats now". Ryan Vesey Review me! 05:02, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Ofcourse, thats the best way is to show how much you guys hate disabled people, especialy those that are here to help. I just was upset with PamD and Stemonitis. Well I actually do have autism and CP. It now feels like like I can't explicit my feelings. Rich told me that you are a good mentor. I don't see it. And as soon as admins would make the choice everyone will say "heil" on it. Just great!--Mishae (talk) 05:03, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I just need help, not a block. If Worm That Turned will be my mentor, I will stop issuing threats and namecallings!--Mishae (talk) 05:06, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

That is a problem. There should be no if/then situation for you to stop issuing threats and namecallings. All threats and namecallings must end now and should have been redacted before. Ryan Vesey Review me! 05:08, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Rich was referring to Worm That Turned I believe; however, I did nothing but assist you prior to your personal attacks. We do not hate disabled people. There are constructive editors on the encyclopedia with just about every disorder you can imagine. We even have blind editors. The deal is, we do not treat any editors differently due to what disables them. That means that we never treat them worse, but we also don't allow editors to act in a way that is contrary to the policies that are set in place while using their handicap as a crutch. Ryan Vesey Review me! 05:08, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Rhetoric about hating disabled people is not helping your case here. If your disability interferes with your ability to edit in a collaborative environment it is something you will have to deal with. WP is WP:NOTTHERAPY and competence is required to edit here and follow behavioral norms and guidelines. SÆdon 05:09, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

O.K. I agree, so whats now? I don't know how to deact?--Mishae (talk) 05:11, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

There is no guarantee that redacting your edits will keep you from being blocked for the reasons described in this thread; however, you can redact your attacks by striking them by adding <s>COMMENT</s> around your comment, or you can remove your attacks and replace them with (Personal attack removed). Ryan Vesey Review me! 05:15, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Strike your comments, apologize to everyone to whom you spoke like that and promise not to violate the spirit or letter of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL again. Keep in mind that if this happens again it will likely be a quick block (and that's not even guaranteeing you're not getting blocked now, but if you do what I said it will be a step in the right direction). SÆdon 05:16, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

O.K. I agree, so whats now? I did the deact. If you guys don't hate disabled people you'll have stoped reverting and ignored the pointless edits I made. That way I could have talked to Worm That Turned without getting into a conflict. Instead, I have PamD and Stemonitis giving me warnings that I find to be a scare tactic rather then helpful one, and now you Ryan, telling administrators Boo-hoo-hoo this guy insulted every editor. Ofcourse you will be on their side! Why you even came to Worm That Turned talkpage? You weren't invited. Neither you or PamD were invited to my talkpage. Fine, I apologize, but not because I feel like it, just because I don't want to be blocked. I can't promise, since I don't want to lie.--Mishae (talk) 05:11, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Facepalm. Heiro 05:28, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

If you can't edit here without attacking other users then you can't edit here; it's that simple. SÆdon 05:48, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

O.K. I did the deact. Whats now, what is facepalm?--Mishae (talk) 05:34, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Facepalm is my reaction to "Fine, I apologize, but not because I feel like it, just because I don't want to be blocked. I can't promise, since I don't want to lie." :It would be a good idea to say you will not repeat such behavior again and actually mean it, and strive to not repeat the offending behavior again. Otherwise you are likely to end up blocked until you can do these things. Heiro 05:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Mishae if you say you won't promise because you don't want to lie, you are in effect saying that you already know you will call people "scum" and "calling them fascists" over and again. If you must be insulting simply to function, there is a serious issue of incompatibility. How would you suggest we handle your conduct and your stated intention to continue? My76Strat (talk) 05:44, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

We don't "hate disabled people" here at WP, as Mishae likely knows. And the rhetoric that alleges that we do seems a bit trollish in nature. Doc talk 06:04, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Misha has struck through the two words "scum" and "fascistic" but I see no indication of an apology, and no change to the "cut your eyes out" rhetoric. This editor seems to have a lot of problems with Misplaced Pages, quite apart from the obsessive removal of spaces from places where they are widely accepted as beneficial (between asterisk and text in a bulleted list, between "|" and the following text in a template set out on separate lines) which was the trigger for various discussions. PamD 08:27, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comment Mishae is notoriously known for similar activity on Russian Misplaced Pages, where he was indeffed in August 2011. In addition, he went to external sites to place there insults to his opponents.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:29, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Fine, I am sorry Pam that your feelings have been hurt, boo-hoo-hoo. But you know my feelings are hurt now too, because of all this! Don't you want to apologize to me too. And besides just because its "easy to read for editors" the spaces I believe are worthless. Because how many editors even go through every article and look for removed trailing space? O' and I did cross that retoric out too, so that you will shut up and quit whining. How would you handle my conduct? Simple:

1. user:koavf will help me with it
2. Don't create the same "circus" you guys did here!

And yes, I already know that I might call people names, but only if they provoke me like here. I don't want to get a one way apology. It makes me feel like this: I apologize to Pam, Pam says "thanks" and will continue on critisizing me, with which I have an issue with! As for the comment: "this editor have a lot of problems with Misplaced Pages"... Question to you Pam: Don't you have problems understanding something too, or are you implying that you are perfect and people that have autism are suppose to be banned? If that so, then put a sign under the missleading "encyclopedia that everyone could edit" that "people with disabilities are not welcomed here, because they cause dissruption, thretening your cozy personal talkpages and articles, etc"--Mishae (talk) 11:01, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

You're invoking the "look what you made me do" game. No one can "provoke" you here, unless you choose to be provoked. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:24, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Dale Chock at Russian phonology

User:Dale Chock is refusing to acknowledge the agreement in the talk page that he needs to find a reliable source to back up a claim he wishes to make about Russian consonant clusters, a claim that sourcing thus far has directly contradicted. Before doing more exhaustive research, I had tagged the claim to request citation, which Dale continously removed. In addition to edit summaries that show as much, Dale has also repeatedly asserted in the talk page that this claim does not need verification:

• April 28: "We do not need to prove that a particular Russian spelling is unrealistic just AEsos, in an attitude of linguistic chauvinism, finds it hard to believe it is realistic."
• May 2: "...about AEsos's insistence on demanding a citation for the quintuple sequence /kvzglʲ/, i.e., that this is pronounced as spelled. Contrary to what he would have us believe, Russian spelling shows Russian pronunciation, except for as noted in reference works."
• May 4: "About clusters of five, I've already explained that: the spelling is to be taken at face value. It is irrational to call for confirmation, and this has already been exhaustively explained."
• May 11: "At the moment, he also persists in the approach of manipulativeness and aggression, bringing us chapter two of a petulant fiction that I really accept the validity of the demand for a citation."

I should note that some of these quotes illustrate Dale's mischaracterization of my request as being one regarding a specific consonant cluster. As I have said repeatedly, the issue is whether clusters with more than four consonants are permissible in the syllable onset. Despite a lengthy justification where I showed the problems with Dale's claims, he has chosen to disregard both my points and the responses by two other editors that show agreement on his need to find sourcing. This includes a recent restoration of the claim in question.

And, as I have shown in the past at Wikiquette assistance, ANI, and AN3, this all comes amid talk page hostility where he accuses other editors of incompetence and bias. — Ƶ§œš¹ 04:54, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

This is the third complaint in a month by this same complainant against me about the same article, and although this one seems to raise a new point, all three otherwise make the same allegations. In this his latest complaint, the opening words are a lie, as I will explain. Please bear in mind that virtually nobody else besides him and me is interested in this article and our editorial disputes (I regret that nobody else is interested in the article).

I call attention to a fresh act of his bullying of me which immediately preceded the lodging of this complaint. Please note that there is a behavior pattern from this complainant, where a complaint to Administrators' Noticeboard against me is preceded by some act with a cunning, mischievous design. The most notable example is when he deleted comments I made on an article talk page and moved them to his own talk page, stating that that was a more appropriate forum for my remarks. (This outrage was documented in my response to Aesos's previous complaints to AN/I.) This time around, earlier this week, while he was awaiting a reply from me at Talk:Russian phonology, shortly before I posted it, this complainant took to taunting me with this message. He is referring to an article he had never edited and in fact has no interest in; he tracked my recent edits to stalk me. Notice the message's sarcastically exaggerated camaraderie and bonhomie -- remember, this is from someone who had just complained about me twice to AN. Evidently, there is an emotional escalation within him which gets reflected in a progression from a display of personal harassment to a lodging of a complaint with AN.

Regarding the single dispute issue he is now complaining to you about: two other editors took his side against me, and two days ago I discussed that on the article's talk page.("Talk:Russian_phonology#Discussion", 23:29 4 Jun 2012) Therefore, Aesos is telling a lie in stating that Dale is "refusing to acknowledge". The reference to "agreement" is phony because all the "agreement" consists of is that a grand total of two other people have responded to his most recent discussion at Talk:Russian phonology, and they agreed with him. Just two days ago, before the complainant lodged this complaint, I made a comprehensive response to the his discussion topic.("Talk:Russian_phonology#Discussion", 23:29 4 Jun 2012) Please note the complainant preferred not to discuss points of contention with me until twice failing to get me disciplined. Even then, he chose just one contentious issue out of many, and addressed it in repetitive fashion.

I fault this third complaint for selfishness (the complainant can't stand that I disagree with him, but conversely he disagrees with me); repetitiveness; and distortions. He uses rhetoric that insinuates that certain true things are false, while on other points he exaggerates. He proposes a "majority vote" criterion which doesn't exist (or at least it shouldn't exist).

One of the two persons to respond to Aesos's discussion point and take his side, Cnilep, did so with reservations, and more importantly, Cnilep did not address my arguments and did not even argue his opinion, he just stated his disagreement with my opinion. Even if he had addressed my arguments, I am not obligated to desist from my editorial stances just because nobody agrees with me -- especially in a situation where participation by third parties is feeble. The other person to take his side, the administrator User:Kwamikagami, is very biased against me. Notice that Aesos uses rhetoric insinuating that my charge of bias on Kwami's part is a fiction. It is a fact I have alluded to in responses to Aesos's previous complaints to AN as well as on Talk:Russian phonology.

Aesos also alludes to my objection that he is incompetent as if it weren't true. I have proven ad nauseam how ill informed and uncomprehending he is at Talk:Russian phonology, Talk:Diasystem, and Talk:Diaphone. (To mention just a few examples: for Russian phonology, during five years he confused a source's claim about word roots as being a claim about words; he uses multiple spellings for the names of his own sources; he has twice inserted Russian language examples while misstating their grammatical case or mistranslating them, gaffes which drew swift corrections by native speakers; and once when he addressed the history of linguistics, he characterized a diehard opponent of generative grammar, Trager, as an "early generativist", which is like confusing Robert E. Lee and Ulysses S. Grant. Just two weeks ago in Russian phonology, he mistranslated a phrase meaning '(away) from friends, from among friends, on account of friends', as '(together) with friends' (a confusion of genitive plural with instrumental plural). He's been participating in this article for five years!)

One last, tedious point, in response to "I should note that some of these quotes illustrate Dale's mischaracterization of my request as being one regarding a specific consonant cluster. As I have said repeatedly, the issue is whether clusters with more than four consonants are permissible in the syllable onset." He has obsesssively complained that I mischaracterize this particular request -- which is mischaracterization on his part. He has given two stories of how I mischaracterize it. The first time, I responded on the talk page, rejecting his story. This time, my lengthy contribution to the Talk page at 23:29 4 Jun (linked above) was devoted to that objection. Aesos gets a kick out of refusing to acknowledge that I acknowledge the true content of the objection. Dale Chock (talk) 08:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment

This case is simple: since our sources say Russian onsets may have up to 4 consonants, if Dale believes it to be 5, he needs a source to support that. Meanwhile, he has issues with civility and assuming good faith. — kwami (talk) 14:35, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

As detailed in this fresh post, Kwami is the last person to be faulting people on "civility", "assuming good faith", and editorial judgement regarding citations. There is his verbal aggression toward me 1 March (linked to in that post), in which he yelled (in two posts, actually) "you're ranting, Dale", flatly refusing to acknowledge paragraphs worth of substantial, objective criticisms I made about a third editor. (To his credit, he has never lost his temper like that since.) That outburst is far more extreme than any indigation I have expressed. Likewise, what he did with a citation in April 2012 is far more objectionable than anybody could reasonably say about the editing action by me that is the subject of this thread. Dale Chock (talk) 03:35, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Or, as seems to be the case, if Dale believes that there are exceptions to this 4-consonant limitation, he needs to find sources to support such a claim. — Ƶ§œš¹ 01:02, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I am responding here only because Dale Chock has referred to me in his response above. Anyone who is interested may view my comments on the article talk page. I am not quite certain what Dale Chock means when he suggests, "Cnilep did not address my arguments and did not even argue his opinion, he just stated his disagreement with my opinion." My comments there were not an argument for or against any individual; I merely stated my understanding of relevant Misplaced Pages policy and best practice. Cnilep (talk) 01:30, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Cnilep, by disagreeing with my stance on how to edit an article, disagreed with a particular individual on something. His talk page comment was not "for or against that individual", but against an opinion -- some individual's opinion. He did not stop at "merely stating my understanding of relevant Misplaced Pages policy and best practice", he applied that understanding to make a determination on whether to oppose or second an editorial judgement. Not a hypothetical judgement, but a deployed judgement, deployed by an identified Wikipedian. Cnilep's reply is a string of obfuscations and insinuations. On the article talk page, he evaded engaging my reasoning about a particular action, and he evaded presenting his reasoning. What he did instead was state a conclusion, then chat about something else. The chat was interesting and informative -- of lasting interest in fact -- but it was only tangentially pertinent to the dispute. Dale Chock (talk) 03:23, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

A fresh example of Aesos inserting misinformation into articles on languages and linguistics (a point discussed above). He has been editing Russian phonology since 2007 (or is it 2005?). Here's a mistranscription he inserted 20 May 2012, and restored 04:02, 7 June 2012. "For example, the phrase с друзья́ми ('with friends') is pronounced ." (The first time, he erroneously wrote с друзья́х instead, but that's beside the point here.) The point of interest is how to transcribe the portion, '-ья-'. Aesos gives ʲa instead of ʲja. Not only that, but for this and some other examples, he fails to do what he demands of me, to cite a source for his transcriptions. Dale Chock (talk) 04:16, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

The last sentence exhibits the very mischaracterization I referred to above, one that you say I have mischaracterized. If you really aren't arguing that I'm asking for you to provide citations for the transcription of specific words/phrases when I ask you to cite the claim that clusters with more than four consonants are permissible in the syllable onset, then your written prose is prohibitively obtuse.

Here, I'll put it plainly. Either you to provide diffs that show me asking you in a talk page/edit summary to cite a specific transcription, or you concede that you're making this up. — Ƶ§œš¹ 06:26, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Note: Restored from archive. — Ƶ§œš¹ 06:01, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

After reading all of this it is clear that you are involved in a rather routine debate related to opposing views and stubborn convictions. That is called normal editing. If you feel you need outside opinions, an RfC is the way to go. There is nothing here to intervene. This thread should close without prejudice and you editors take this to the article talk page and work it out. My76Strat (talk) 06:40, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Fang Zhouzi

Fang Zhouzi seems to be subject of an edit war and attack by people trying to damage his reputation. Allegations of voyeurism, sexual assault, and plagiarism being added. References are in Chinese and difficult to understand. I have not left any notices of this posting to any editors as I am not sure who should be notified. This article likely needs an expert. Thanks Jim1138 (talk) 09:00, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Appeal

Magog the ogre has just imposed a restriction on my editing, he has banned me from editing Battle of Chawinda for two months even though I have committed no violations, there was an Iban violation on the part of the other editor with who I have the Iban yet again Magog sees fit to restrict me. His policing of this dispute has been suboptimal since the start had has gotten worse. I demand he remove himself from policing this dispute, and this restriction lifted. Ok here is the timeline Added by Mar4d. Removed by Dbigrayx. Restored by Nangparbat. I revert back to Mar4d. removed again by DBRX. IP reverts himhttp://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Battle_of_Chawinda&diff=next&oldid=496114020] which I revert assuming it was a sock, I self reverted this once I checked the IP. I have now edited this content twice. TG first revert of this quote was two days after I had worked it twice. There has been no violation on my part Darkness Shines (talk) 10:13, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

If anyone (other than someone with skin in this dispute) is actually interested in the events that led to this block, I will be happy to provide them. I'm not going to do so unless requested, because I'm not going to waste my time when most non-involved who are familiar with this dispute will instantly recognize that the community has been more than patient with both of these users, and that any sanction on them, especially when one of them has been continually trying his hardest to get around the spirit of his interaction ban, is more than fair, given the alternative remedies that could be produced. Magog the Ogre (talk) 10:22, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you can explain why you have not even warned the other side of this Iban when it was he who committed a violation, instead choosing to sanction me again. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:38, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I am stuck between a rock and a hard place in a response to that. I really don't want to respond per WP:NOTTHEM, because I'm really tired of always talking about the other party, and because I don't want to WP:SOUP up the conversation for the community. On the other hand, I really want to be fair and give a full explanation. So here it is: TopGun did not violate the ban. As I indicated to you by email, a reversion of vandalism (or, in this case, socking) by one editor is not sufficient to rise to the level of placing a block on the other editor's actions for said content - especially when the first editor self-reverted. And even if it is enough - you yourself have made such edits in the past and indicated you thought they were OK, so you kind of knew better, right? Magog the Ogre (talk) 10:51, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

One of those edits was not by a sock, the quote in question was first edited by myself, TG editing if it is a violation and again you choose to restrict and berate me though I had done nothing wrong. You continually do this, all anyone need do us look at the two warnings you gave out after the last ANI thread, one was nice and friendly, the other aggressive. Guess who got the aggressive one though again I had not commited the violation. Darkness Shines (talk) 11:18, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I guess you caught me, Darkness Shines. I am a proud American; Pakistan is as virulently anti-American parts of the Pakistani population is as anti-American as any nation in the world, save parts of the Afghan population. They harbored a mass-murderer of American civilians in their equivalent of West Point, and then threw the guy who helped out the US in jail for 30 years. They do things like throw US government agents in jail for the crime of being stuck up at an ATM. Their nuclear arsenal scares the daylights out of me, like no one else's. I harbor no such thoughts towards India. And yet, despite all of these thoughts going through my head, I have thrown my hat in the ring with a pro-Pakistan POV-pusher. Or could it possibly be that you are just acting disruptively? Magog the Ogre (talk) 11:39, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Having spent some time in Pakistan, and having written a series of articles about it, I would have to say that classifying Pakistan as a whole as "virulently anti-American" is plain wrong - period. The reality is that they try to have their cake and eat it too. Indeed, they will do actions to appease their US friends, then turn around and do actions to appease the Islamic congress. They're a massive double-agent, but everybody knows they're a double-agent. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:47, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I've redacted the statement a bit. Although it's a rabbit trail. Magog the Ogre (talk) 11:51, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Cheers. Of course, it's also detracting from the apparent purpose of this ANI anyway, which is apparently to review the editing restriction? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:53, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Magog please stick to the facts. Explain why you sanctioned me when I had done nothing wrong and have not even warned the editor who commited the Iban violation. Darkness Shines (talk) 11:57, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

So, let's take this from the beginning again. Darkness Shines was sanctioned because he reverted TopGun, from whom he is interaction-banned. DS claims that his revert was justified because TG's previous edit was itself a breach of the interaction ban. True? Well, in that case, DS is wrong: even if TG's edit had also breached the ban, that doesn't give DS the right to revert again. We can now proceed to investigating whether TG should also be sanctioned, but the sanction on DS is sound. And, insofar as it's restricted to this one article, it's rather on the lenient side. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:06, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

If one is in an interaction ban, and observes a violation by the other party, the appropriate thing to do is to privately notify one's most trusted admin, and let the admin take it from there. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:47, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions?

By the way, do we currently have a general regime of discretionary sanctions on Afghanistan and Pakistan issues? Given the intensity of multi-party disruption in this area (multiple POV warriors fighting on multiple ideological fronts, plus no end of serial sockpuppeters in between), we surely ought to have one. If we don't, let's get one now (community-imposed), and then apply it on a zero-tolerance basis until the appropriate proportion of editors in this field is gone (that is, at my rough estimate, about 70% of all editors active in the field now). Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:12, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Can't comment on Afghanistan, but Pakistan-India sanctions would also be useful in my opinion. Mar4d (talk) 12:19, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Crystal Cathedral article renaming problem

Without any discussion an editor has improperly renamed the Crystal Cathedral article to Christ Cathedral on the basis that the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange has recently announced that "Christ Cathedral" is to be the building's name when it becomes the diocese's new cathedral. Although the building is now legally owned the RC diocese, under the terms of the sale it is still currently functioning as the "Crystal Cathedral" and will continue to do so until Crystal Cathedral Ministries ceases to use the building, which is not expected until the middle of 2013 at the earliest. I have tried reverting the name change but for some reason this didn't have any effect. I will appreciate it if an administrator, or any editor who knows how to do so, will revert the name change. I apologise if this is the wrong place to request this. Thanks. Afterwriting (talk) 11:29, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Then just move it back and invite ktr101 to discuss the move on the talk page. It only becomes an issue if he moves it again without consensus. and yes I did check the redirect to make sure he didn't pull a dolovis by editing it so only admins could move it back. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 12:05, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Ron. As mentioned above, I already tried to "move it back" by reverting to a previous version but - although all the article's text was reverted - the name change wasn't. I tried several ways to do this without success. Can you tell me what the best way of reverting a name change is? Another editor has already reverted it for me. Afterwriting (talk) 12:49, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I would agree with Ron, this seems consistent with WP:BRD. Also, I notified Ktr101 that you brought the issue up here. Even though you didn't mention him by name, this is obviously referring to him since he made the move, so in the future, be sure to use the template at the top of this page and notify any party who is the focus of an ANI, please. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 12:11, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Dennis. Your advice on the notification of other editors is noted and appreciated. I had already considered doing this but didn't think it was so much an "incident" with another editor as a straightforward article problem that only needed changing without too much fuss and I didn't know where else to ask since I was unable to do it myself for some reason. But I will know better if there is a next time. Cheers, Afterwriting (talk) 12:49, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

212.118.232.164 / User:HunterSilver

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi. I think banned User:HunterSilver returned again, with his attempts to push his unconstructive edits at List of Prime Ministers of Nepal, now with this IP address: 212.118.232.164. Just to let you know, User:HunterSilver is a sockpuppet of User:HasperHunter, who was banned indefinitely on April 20, 2012 for abusing multiple accounts. All of them are, in turn, sockpuppets of User:DBSSURFER (A few days ago, I opened a SPI, which can be found here). I'm really becoming tired of this, and I hope someone can solve this issue for good. --Sundostund (talk) 12:13, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• IP blocked, article semi-protected for a month. Let us know if he comes back on other articles. Black Kite (talk) 12:55, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

disruptive editor with unsustainable PoV

Hi,

I have been doing battle since 16 May (It all started here) with Stodieck (Talk), who has a technical PoV about aircraft that he is trying to stitch into several articles, including Canard (aeronautics), Stabilizer (aircraft) and Wing configuration. He is abusive, does not listen to reason or accept the majority consensus of other editors. He has most recently taken to misinterpreting sources, which has started to confuse other editors. The main evidence of this may be found on Talk:Stabilizer (aircraft): see my posts from 5 June downwards for diffs and other links. I notice that this user has been censured before on their talk page. Please help, I am at the end of my tether. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 12:23, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards