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 Policy Technical Proposals Idea lab WMF Miscellaneous 
Shortcuts The idea lab section of the village pump is a place where new ideas or suggestions on general Misplaced Pages issues can be incubated, for later submission for consensus discussion at Village pump (proposals). Try to be creative and positive when commenting on ideas.
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For a listing of ongoing discussions, see the dashboard.

The aim of the Village pump (idea lab) is to encourage the preliminary incubation of new ideas in a "non-polling" environment. When you have a new idea, it is not mandatory that you post it here first. However, doing so can be useful if you only have a general conception of what you want to see implemented, and would like the community's assistance in devising the specifics. Once ideas have been developed, they can be presented to the community for consensus discussion at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals).

The formation of this page, and the question of its purpose and existence, are the subjects of discussion on the talk page. Direct all comments on those topics there.


Just a thought

I was just thinking that, as great as the English Misplaced Pages is and as successful as it's been, it could be far more efficient if a greater system of coordination between various branches could be created. For example, an admin who hangs out around AfD, an inexperienced but knowledgeable content editor working here or there, and someone who works a lot at the Mediation Cabal might not share a lot of collaborative ideas. Instead, how about this?

  • The Wiki could be divided into ten very loose sectors:
    • Materials for deletion, discussion, and creation
    • Content disputes
    • Inter-user disputes
    • Anti-vandalism tasks
    • Multilingual coordination
    • Technical areas
    • Societal encyclopedic content
    • Mathematical and scientific encyclopedic content
    • Popular culture encyclopedic content
    • Religious and philosophical encyclopedic content.
  • Each one of these groups would be assigned something of a "noticeboard." Editors who found themselves frequently at one of these encyclopedia areas could participate in a polling that would take place on each noticeboard. The polling would select two representatives. In the end, the twenty representatives could form an editorial collaboration council (click for more details).
  • The members of this editorial collaboration council would meet in a conference once every two months, and would discuss new, problematic, and positive things occurring in their respective necks of the wikiwoods. They would discuss the state of Misplaced Pages, especially regarding new editors, IP editors, and noticed trends occurring on the webpage.
  • I'm not sure if it's possible, but, to make council meetings more efficient, could a userright be given to councilors, allowing only them to access the conference page? A discussion page could be set up on which other editors could voice their opinions or make statements.

Just a thought ... dci | TALK 03:53, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I think this is too much bureaucracy. We already have mostly working processes for these. The people interested in the meta-stuff (e.g. deletion or anti-vandalism) already know where to go for each issue. For the actual encyclopedia, WikiProjects in general do a great job of coordinating topic-specific issues; improvements can be made, but I don't think organizational categories as broad as "Popular culture encyclopedic content" are needed. I also disagree with the idea of creating a new private group or council. I support transparency, except for issues that really need to be private (e.g. CheckUser). Superm401 - Talk 05:37, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, people know where to go, but do different groups with different interests always coordinate with one another and share information? I feel that this would be a way to have representatives from different interest groups come together and discuss exactly where we're at and where we're going, and I think it might be worth a try someday. As for transparency, the conference would be visible to everyone– the only thing that non-representatives couldn't do was edit the page. dci | TALK 05:53, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree that this is not a good idea. Specialists already know where they can go to discuss matters with people from the same specialty. There's no reason to artificially break up the project like this. Sven Manguard Wha? 15:17, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, maybe this is indeed a bad idea. However, do you think it might be possible to have a temporary, one-week discussion forum sometime where any number of users could post a reply to a fairly standard question, or one that could help to gauge where Misplaced Pages is at or heading? dci | TALK 17:44, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
You might be interested in WP:COUNCIL, where cross-discipline issues are occasionally posted. (Most of them are listed at the WP:RFC pages, of course.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I'll check that out. dci | TALK 19:46, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I think that the current WikiProject system is a good way to organise this kind of thing. I do agree that some WikiProjects are co-ordinated better than others, but that seems to be based on who is willing to take part in it. Also, I agree that cross-project collaboration may be lacking, and could be improved. DCI, I think that a decent idea could be worked out to solve these issues; however, I think it needs to be within our current WikiProject system. Perhaps you could look at ideas for improving and helping the less active WikiProject, improving the co-ordination of active but disorganised projects, and improving cross-project collaboration. I would be interested in supporting and working with something which attempted to solve these problems with the current system. ItsZippy 20:38, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
We could go that way. WikiProject Council could potentially start up an initiative to coordinate far-flung WikiProjects and could perhaps have a forum on its talk page where editors could post concerns and the other things I proposed could be mentioned in a conference (the link is above). dci | TALK 22:12, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
WikiProject Council should establish the areas listed in this suggestion as broader areas under which WikiProjects can be grouped, and create relatively autonomous "working groups" for each area which will be able to act on the Council's auspices. The working groups will focus more on the specific subject matter of the areas they are assigned as well as low-level coordination, while the Council can focus on higher-level co-ordination between more prominent groups on WikiProjects and areas of general concern for the encyclopedia, such as dispute arbitration, compilation of statistics, scrutiny of the working groups, and some interpretation of policy. Although I am observant of the fact that Misplaced Pages is not to be a bureaucratic system, it is also my understanding that the encyclopedia needs some sort of overall co-ordination if it is to survive, rather than fall apart into a thousand tiny pieces. By the way, I think that now that we have developed the topic this far, it seems more like a policy than a specific feature for implementation, and therefore should be moved to the policy section of the Village Pump with an appropriate link to this discussion. Wer900 (talk) 23:00, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Remind everyone about WP:BACKLOG and WP:Dashboard: Users who like joining long discussions can pick-a-topic from WP:Dashboard. However, perhaps the single greatest cross-subject "dose of reality" which can wake-up editors to the broad spectrum of Misplaced Pages concerns is, of course: WP:BACKLOG, with over 70 lists of problem areas which have needed help for months (or rather, years). For example, WP:BACKLOG notes "5,620" pages need editing by subject-matter experts, another "7,728" articles seem slanted (need NPOV), or "14,297" pages have promotional wording to remove (might be adverts or sound like it), and "9,751" images/files should be moved to Wikimedia Commons for cross-linking in German, Italian or any other-language Wikipedias. From working last year with WP:GOCE (Guild of Copy Editors), I can estimate the "4,078" articles which need copy-editing have from 50-450 grammar, awkward wording, or spelling errors, plus need hyphens/commas, and those 4,078 pages require an average of 1-hour sessions of intense editing, often adding 1-3 sources each. Remind more people about the need to meditate and absorb the impact of WP:BACKLOG, to really gain a wider perspective on some of those 70 major aspects of English Misplaced Pages. Meanwhile, remember to scan some of the major WP:Dashboard areas, especially for questions at WP:Help_desk, WP:RfC and WP:PUMPTECH to gain more perspective on issues discussed there, as well. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:51, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
There has to be some large-scale collaboration on issues, and with the declining editorship on Misplaced Pages WikiProjects are too small and constrained to do much for the wiki as a whole. I wholeheartedly support this idea.

There are, though, some additions I would like to make - the council should be expanded to forty, maybe fifty members. I will discuss more later. Wer900 (talk) 02:50, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Properly speaking, the council does not have members. Anyone who wants to participate is welcome. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:41, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Positions of trust

I have recently been notified that I must identify to WMF or be removed from a position of trust I hold. It is reasonable to me and I will shortly accede the demand. It occurs to me that administrators should be no less required, for the same reasons expressed to me. In fact it is remiss to require me, an account creator to identify while exempting the larger group of admins who have the same right bundled. My76Strat (talk) 05:00, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Note for clarification from WMF
The identification was required of those with access to the account creation tool, not the right. That tool gave access to data that was covered under the access to non-public data policy, which is a Foundation-wiki Board codified policy. Administrators do not have access to the same private information, and are not, therefore, required to identify to the Foundation. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 01:20, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Personally I have no problem identifying to the WMF, but the obvious concern is whether a significant number of the admins doing the heavy lifting at AIV and elsewhere might just say "no thanks" and we'd be out some valuable volunteers for no appreciable benefit. 28bytes (talk) 05:25, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
May I ask why you believe it is needed? What problems would it solve? jonkerz ♠talk 05:27, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Notified by whom? Someone with an official WMF account? Nyttend (talk) 06:52, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I first saw the message when I logged on to toolserve and there was a red message stating that after 1 week if I hadn't identified I would lose the permission. I asked in the irc channel for ACC when the week expired and was told Monday. As I stated I have no problem meeting the request. It does however strike me as odd that administrators who are more exposed to personal information than me would be exempt. Additionally the mandate requires that I be at least 18 years old. Fine, that is reasonable, but again, perhaps our admins should also be at least 18, though I would propose 25. I understand this concept wouldn't be well received, but hey, I can see some benefits too. So I proposed the idea here. I suspect it will be shot down and that is also fine, I'm use to that. Meanwhile I'll simply do what I am being required to do while consensus forms to explain how wrong a notion it is. Cheers - My76Strat (talk) 08:22, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
That would exclude me from the admin corps for a long time, and so far I'd like to think I've done a decent job.... Reaper Eternal (talk) 14:36, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I think you are a good administrator and see your character as rather strong. Your example serves a persuasive argument against. I have stricken the portion where I suggested 25 years old because it is stretching reason. I truly do however believe 18 is a reasonable threshold, but consensus may be clearly against this. My76Strat (talk) 14:48, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I personally have no problem identifying to the Foundation – I actually already have. However, as members of the account creation team, we have access to non-public information about editors (e-mail and IP addresses), to which we, as admins, have no access whatsoever. We can discuss whether or not having access to articles deleted per G10 is more sensitive than seeing an IP, but under the current Privacy Policy, admins have no access to data that would require them to identify to the Foundation. Salvio 12:38, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Thank you Salvio, that is a very good point. In fact I better understand the situation myself as it was explained to me after my last post that in fact it is the toolserver access I would lose not the AC permission. Consequently an admin who does have the AC flag, does not inherently have with it, toolserver access. So I am glad to see this point corrected for perspective. Nevertheless, as it did occur to me that it seemed reasonable for admins to identify for similar reasons of trust. I hope conversation will continue regarding this idea, in case it does emerge as a supported notion. And thanks to those offering comments thus far. My76Strat (talk) 13:29, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
@My76Strat - My understanding is that the requirement to identify for ACC was due to the nature of the ACC tool rather than the nature of MediaWiki accountcreator right. Users of the tool itself have to identify. Can you clarify?--v/r - TP 14:25, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, this is the case. This isn't because it is a position of trust, but rather because they have access to non-public data under the WMF's policy. They want to make sure that only people over 18 and who have known identity are able to see people's IP addresses, which is what ACC on TS can do. Admins can't see non-public information (by definition of what the right includes) and therefore don't need to be identified. MBisanz 14:27, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
FWIW they check your identity and age, then delete that data. Being "identified" makes no comment about your age, and your name is not stored. I suppose with permission the foundation could pass on this age detail to the ACC admins. But really identification is a "meh" thing, security theatre. --Errant 00:52, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I see no reason why we should institutionalize age discrimination, already a problem at RfA, by making identification mandatory for adminship. As for upping the age to 25, that's a terrible idea, it cuts off a large group of users (college students), and offers no benefit to the project. Sven Manguard Wha? 14:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
    • Honestly, I don't believe that to require all admins to be at least 18 is age discrimination... Actually, I would consider it a very sensible idea, as admins have access to material which was deleted and can block other editors: maturity should be mandatory. Salvio 15:01, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, one could argue that maturity is not always proportional to age, but requiring admins to be above 18 isn't a very bad idea after all. Admins frequently have to view offensive and sometimes sexually explicit material; something which may not be legal in their country of residence. Lynch7 15:05, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
It's not our job to hold viewers hands and coddle them and prevent them from seeing "bad things". This should apply even less for users. Sven Manguard Wha? 15:12, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree, but I consider it our job to make sure that admins are mature and professional. And a 14-year-old generally is not; he's just a kid and should not have access to the admin toolset. Salvio 15:16, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree with that, but a 14-year-old wouldn't possibly have the maturity or "capability" (that isn't the correct word, but for my life I can't think of the correct one to use!) to pass RFA anyway. You can tell just by reading the requests at WP:RFPERM the approximate age of each user. Reaper Eternal (talk) 15:28, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree it is unlikely a 14 year old could pass RfA, but not impossible. One positive thing that would automatically ensue involves the allegations that "kids are in charge" which I have seen levied. A requirement to identify would allow that kind of innuendo to be dismissed out of hand. My76Strat (talk) 15:54, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually we do have quite a few young admins, even young 'crats. You just don't know because they're highly professional, or as some people like to say "mature". Sven Manguard Wha? 16:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I would strongly oppose placing an age requirement for administrators. There are many teenagers out there who are incredibly responsible, and are highly-trusted by families, schools, and communities. I see no reason why we cannot extend this same amount of trust to responsible editors on Misplaced Pages who would like to receive additional abilities so that they can help keep Misplaced Pages moving along efficiently. Some say that teenagers aren't mature and may be faced with inappropriate material that they cannot handle. This may be true in some instances, but it is equally likely that a disruptive adult editor could have a less-than-desired reaction or post an inappropriate item on this website. Misplaced Pages should be proud that young people would like to help keep it clean and moving along, and should not be trying to restrict them from doing good work. dci | TALK 17:52, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
What we should be proud of and how we should build infrastructure are two different things. My76Strat (talk) 06:31, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
What I do as an admin really has no requirement for me to identify to the Foundation; period. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:37, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Although admins are a position of trust, we don't really have any secret special access that requires identification. We're way closer to users with additional privileges than traditional network or system administrators. We're closer to "moderators" in that sense on a traditional forum software. The traditional administrator would be closer to someone who wore all hats (checkuser, sysop, steward, crat and oversight) and even then that falls short of the traditional administrator role on a website.--v/r - TP 14:15, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I believe that the current criteria for admins should remain in place for some time, with no new additions like age requirements. For admins who act terribly immature or in bad faith, I'd go with the plan linked below, in the next section. I think it's on the Proposals page now. dci | TALK 21:23, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Out of curiosity, how would this affect an admin under the age of 18 now who has already passed RFA? Would he be required to step down? And if so, would he be required to re-run through RFA after reaching 18 and identifying? Reaper Eternal (talk) 22:23, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
  • While particulars would require development, I believe there would be strong support to not require a second RfA. More than likely, once a deadline was set, any who remain unidentified on the deadline would be suspended, and the tool reinstated when they did identify. Honestly I don't anticipate it happening but then again, last week I had no idea it would be required of me. So it is worth considering. My76Strat (talk) 22:45, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
    • If we must have an age requirement, I would be fine with it being for bureaucrats, as their userright involves even more abilities. I will still strongly oppose any age requirement for administrators that advances to a further stage. dci | TALK 02:30, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages needs a training ground

One of the most pressing problems facing Misplaced Pages at the moment is declining editorship. This is largely due to the fact that Misplaced Pages has become an unwelcoming place for new editors unfamiliar with the rules and mores we've developed over the years. The "Article feedback tool" was one method tried to remedy this, but it has proven largely a joke, at least for the articles I edit. A better idea, I think, would simply be to make Misplaced Pages more welcoming to visitors. Right now, the "how to" sections on Misplaced Pages are faceless, intimidating blocks of text, hidden behind tiny search icons on the side of the page. What is needed is a user-friendly interactive website, complete with audio, video and its own cadre of dedicated users who will handhold new editors through their first attempts. I would also suggest a "training ground" be set up consisting of ~1000 duplicate articles on which new editors can be politely led through the dos and don'ts without getting their heads bitten off by irate editors. Serendious 08:23, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree - Misplaced Pages has become quite old-fashioned in how it runs - it is not obvious how it works. Many successful website now make it incredibly easy to do something (consider Facebook's removal of the send button in favour or just pressing Enter, or Google Instant). I think large steps will be taken to the effect with the development of the visual editor, and I am really hoping that it will be intuitive and obvious to use. I believe that, if Misplaced Pages wants to attract people beyond those who would edit Misplaced Pages anyway, it needs to become simple to use and move away from the culture of expecting people to read pages of instructions. We seem to expect new editors to read and understand out 5 pillars, our policies on notability, reliable sources, copyright, and original research and to read all the guidance on editing.
Creating a new page is now very difficult. There is no button which says "CREATE A NEW PAGE BY CLICKING THIS", and there should be. We have the Article Wizard and Articles for Creation but, for a new user, they are almost impossible to find. Unless you somehow know to type "Article Wizard" into the search bar, you'll never get there. We use Wikimarkup because it is much simpler than HTML; despite this, unless you've had prior experience with wikis, clicking the edit buttons can present a page full of complex coding at the top, which can be difficult to navigate if you don't know what is happening.
There needs to be something where new users immediately go to when the register, which they can find again without having to type something into the search box. Our problem is that some of the very useful pages we have cannot be found unless you know to search for them (and, if you don't understand the Misplaced Pages namespace, even that is confusing). I certainly agree that there needs to be an overhaul of Misplaced Pages's editing guidance, especially for new users, placing big unmissable buttons to the important guides and not relying on a user's ability to navigate our complex web of policy. This needs to be built into the existing systems we have for editing, as well as used as a principle for writing guides for new users. ItsZippy 16:07, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
I have no objection in principle to a "training ground"; indeed, it would be nice to have a way to identify and get in touch with newbies who are interested in good faith article creation, and help them learn to do it right. Not to be a hidebound reactionary, but I oppose the call to "move away from the culture of expecting people to read pages of instructions." This is an encyclopedia, not Twitter. In order to write articles correctly you have to read, and read a lot. How can someone who is unable/unwilling to read a volume of material ever get through the reliable sources required to create their article? There is no royal road. Ntsimp (talk) 23:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
The notion that new editors should have to digest reams of wikispeak and acronyms before they can share their knowledge and expertise seems somewhat distant from the original conception of Misplaced Pages. There's a lot to be said for intuitive beginners' guides which are quick and easy to consult. — MistyMorn (talk) 00:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
There is no way that I can disagree with this: as a newish editor myself, Misplaced Pages was at first an intimidating place to navigate. While it is much simpler now, Misplaced Pages is well behind the bell curve in terms of how many prospective editors stay and contribute to the community got a long period of time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wer900 (talk • contribs) 02:41, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


If you think that Misplaced Pages has become an unwelcoming place for new editors, please read Misplaced Pages: Please do not bite the newcomers, and try to get more people to read the article there. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:25, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Allow any logged in editor to delete their own U1 and G7 cases

Some of our least contentious speedy deletions could be "unbundled" so that the any user can delete their own U1 and G7 pages. This would take a bit of work off our admins, and more importantly it would empower all editors to get rid of their own mistakes and clutter. For G7 I'd suggest that any logged in editor be enabled to delete any page where they are the sole author, you could also broaden that to pages where the only other edits are from bots or were marked as minor. For U1 I'd suggest that we In either case we need to exclude pages that have moved, otherwise we risk vandals moving articles into their userspace and then deleting them. Otherwise per U1 editors should be free to delete pages in their userspace - though not their usertalk space. This would still leave a proportion of U1 and G7 tags for admins to deal with, but hopefully only ones where something needs checking. I haven't fully quantified the number of articles involved, but from my experience it would be many articles per day so thousands of articles per year. ϢereSpielChequers 15:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Update per Nyttend's comment, I'm adding the restriction - "Other than in userspace, this would only apply to pages created in the previous 7 days". ϢereSpielChequers 20:49, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
I like the idea, and the qualifications you've added would solve any potential problems. It would have to be limited, but I think you've covered that. ItsZippy 15:46, 19 February 2012 (UTC)`
Misplaced Pages:Perennial proposals#Grant non-admins admin functions within their user space touches on this. Is there some huge backlog of U1 or G7 deletions that there is any actual need for this? Also, BTW, you'd have to exclude moved pages from your G7 deletion deal too, or a vandal could move a page to a random title and then delete the redirect left behind. Anomie⚔ 19:59, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
There is not a large backlog, but I don't think that should prevent the implementation of such an idea unless there is reason not to implement the idea. The page you linked to mentioned possible security issues; I would be interested to hear more regarding that. Restricting moved pages for G7 sounds like a good idea. ItsZippy 20:20, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Would this be given out as a user flag to prevent abuse? If so, perhaps -suppressredirect could also be added to the flag. Such a flag would definitely allow more non-admins to help out with non-controversial requested moves i.e. deleting the redirect left behind to do a multi requested move. Alpha_Quadrant (talk) 20:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
I wasn't suggesting this as a separate userright - more that all logged in editors could be allowed to do such uncontentious deletions. ϢereSpielChequers 15:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I like the spirit of this proposal. My singular concern is that I prefer a system which incorporates adequate checks and balances. Because every saved edit is an "irrevocable release" of that contribution, I am generally opposed to abilities that could contravene the spirit of that intent. I would rather support a flag that allowed non administrators to accomplish these non controversial deletions, but not where the contributions are their own. I cringe at the prevailing practice where administrators routinely delete their own pages. I just believe deletions should have the endorsement of an additional editor to ensure propriety. — Preceding unsigned comment added by My76Strat (talk • contribs) 20:37 19 February 2012
As it has already been mentioned, there is one more potentially dangerous way to use such abilities: when a page is moved, the user who performed the move is the only author of the resulting redirect... But it doesn't feel right to let the same user delete such redirects - there is a separate user right for that...
And there might be some other potential dangers. Furthermore, unless we are going to allow the same users to undo such deletions (and I don't think we can, since that would require to let them view the deleted versions), it might lead to some, er, embarrassing situations (when user deletes something after, er, getting carried away with testing the interface). Thus no, I don't think it is a good idea. It is not very hard to add the template and that lets an administrator to check if the tagged page really should be deleted (there might be some reason not to). There is nothing wrong with such deletions taking some time - that just gives some time for the user to think it over. --Martynas Patasius (talk) 01:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Good point about moves and redirects - I've tweaked the proposal to exclude any page that has moved. Not just the G7s. I appreciate that it will lead to the occasional request for a restore. But they won't be as much work for the admins as the deletes currently are. As for checks and balances, this is for a very restricted group of pages where checks and balances are not needed due to their being in one users userspace or the sole work of one author. ϢereSpielChequers 15:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
"I appreciate that it will lead to the occasional request for a restore. But they won't be as much work for the admins as the deletes currently are." - I'm afraid you misunderstood me. The problem is not the work for administrators, but the embarrassment for non-administrators. Will all of them really get to asking "Um, could you please restore the page that I have deleted, er, by accident..?"? Or will many decide "It isn't worth it..."? --Martynas Patasius (talk) 21:40, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I think WSC has summed up what I would have said in response to the above post, bar one thing. Perhaps with restoring deleted pages, a user would be able to see deleted versions of pages that they have themselves deleted. This would have none of the problems that allowing users to see deleted contributions usually entails. ItsZippy 21:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, I guess it might be so. Still, it doesn't mean that no other problems are possible. For example, what about the pages that would otherwise be deleted for some other reason? Maybe in worst cases (when, let's say, the user creates an attack page, deletes it and publishes his password so that everyone would be able to see that page) the page could be simply undeleted and redeleted by some administrator. But still, in such case deletion might end up deterring creation of undesirable pages less effectively.
Also, all that slowly starts to look somewhat technically difficult: we need to check if the page has been moved, or if it is the result of a move, and for deleted revisions - if the user is the one who deleted the versions (by the way, would "desysopped" administrators be able to view all versions they deleted too?)... Are all those checks really worth it?
Finally, there is a "philosophical" problem. The need to go to an administrator for any deletion slightly emphasises the fact that nothing we write in Misplaced Pages really belongs to us and we cannot take our contributions back without some sort of permission of Community (or Foundation). And that does seem worth emphasising (as noted in "Perennial proposals")...
In short, this proposal is in "Perennial proposals" for a reason (like many others)... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 21:34, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I have no objection at all to the spirit of this proposal, but I can't say I see any real gain from implementing it either. I am generally opposed to unbundling the tools, but this would just apply to pages a user created in their own userspace so it just shortcuts the process we already have. The thing is, that process is already very simple and almost never controversial, and does not experience significant backlogs, so the benefits seem rather minimal. If the fix were simpler than the problem, I would be all for it, but at the moment it appears this would add a bunch of new rules that users would have to understand before using it. At present all they have to understand is how to slap {{db-user}} on it. So, the current approach seems more practical to me. Beeblebrox (talk)
    • Hi Beeblebrox, the editors wouldn't need to understand the rules as the idea is to get the devs to code this into the system. If you are entitled to delete a page you would be able to do so. If you aren't entitled to delete it you won't be able to. So for editors the fix would be simple, and it would to some extent empower non-admins. As for backlogs, well my guestimate is that this would automate many thousands of uncontentious and routine admin actions per year. I don't know how long the typical admin spends on each of those deletes, but it would clearly save many hours of time and leave people time to focus on more contentious deletions. With RFA broken we have to start thinking how we function with fewer admins, and this would make a contribution to that. ϢereSpielChequers 22:48, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
      • Good idea, but I have to oppose it for licensing reasons. Like Beeblebrox, I agree with the spirit of the proposal, but I'm afraid that this could be used by people who are attempting to revoke irrevokable licenses — especially on images, since people more often try to revoke those and they're far less commonly edited by people other than the uploader. Nyttend (talk) 23:58, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
        • I'm assuming that you are just opposing the G7 bit not the U1 part? If so you've made a good point about revoking licenses that are being used. As my intention was only to unbundle the uncontentious deletions, would your concerns be resolved if we narrowed the G7 part to "pages created in the last 7 days"? In my view that would enable people to resolve typos in image names and similar but require admins to rule on other stuff. ϢereSpielChequers 20:49, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Our license is irrevocable, and there is great benefit to the encyclopedia in maintaining that part of it. People want to withdraw what they have written for all sort of reasons--if,for example, they find an article more difficult than they intended, yet someone may want to work on it in the future. I interpret the current criterion as discretionary, and if it does not seem reasonable to me, I decline the speedy. Letting people delete at pleasure is OWNership. We need the criterion to allow for rapid action when it is clear there will never be a usable article, , but I do not think it extends beyond that. It's for mistakes, not second thoughts. DGG ( talk ) 02:21, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
  • See Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approval/7SeriesBOT and Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approval/7SeriesBOT 2 Josh Parris 21:57, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
    • I remembered there'd been a bot discussion and I thought that we'd got consensus but never found a bot writer. Yes that bot has so far done 6,327 uncontentious deletions and would be redundant if this went ahead - but I think it would be more empowering for our editors if they could do these directly rather than use an admin even if that admin was a bot. Also this includes some instances that the bot doesn't yet cover. ϢereSpielChequers 11:44, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Sorry if I missed it, but with the proper restrictions, aren't G7s for pagemoves over redirects something that could ease up on admin workload? Aslbsl (talk) 14:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
  • G7 and U1 deletions are amongst the easiest to do, so there is seldom a backlog, unlike for copyvios and A7's. I think this is a solution looking for a problem. It makes the interface more complicated for those that would never use the feature. The G6's for page moves can be delayed, but that can be because the move is contentious or unclear or wrong. The undo move seems to be the only addition that might have some benefit, but the extra complexity would negate that. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:41, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Automatically updating "As Of (date)" template

Hi, I've always thought that instead of using Template:as of, there should be an "as of" template that properly updates the date of an item when required (Example: "As of 2011, Jimmy Hoffa's body has not been found." would change to "As of 2012, Jimmy..." automatically). What the current As Of template is intended to do is to categorize an article as "will be outdated eventually" after inserting a date manually. Wouldn't it be more convenient if there was a date template that updated itself instead of simply tagging the article as "soon outdated"?

I've been told that one of the reasons for forcing manual update is that in some cases there is a need for manual checking, as in "As of 2012, Obama is president". Obviously you wouldn't want the template to continue updating indefinitely "As of 2020, ..." but for those cases one would simply remove the template when it's no longer applicable. Are there any other reasons to not consider this type of template that anyone can think of? -Kreachure (talk) 20:35, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The main argument against such a template would be that (one hopes) the "As of 2011" is sourced. If the source says "as of 2011", it should stay that way until a new source comes along with updated information. An unsolved math problem, for example, might be unsolved as of 2008, but more investigation is needed to determine if it's still unsolved in 2012. 28bytes (talk) 20:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I see your point. I am talking, though, about instances where only a "precedent" is required to confirm it to the future, and until a new precedent is established. Jimmy Hoffa's body is not the best example, but it illustrates my point. You wouldn't need new sources every year to keep establishing that Hoffa's body hasn't been found yet, right? You would simply need the proper sources to tell you that Jimmy Hoffa's body wasn't found, an is "still" missing. Maybe I need more examples to illustrate: as of 2012, there are 8 planets in the solar system and five objects considered dwarf planets. Until a new planet is discovered (if at all), this will be a fact as of 2013, 2014 etc. You don't need new sources every year to tell you this, you would only need a new source when and if the fact changes (i.e. a new planet is discovered). Last example: As of 2012, Emma Thompson is the only person who has won an Oscar as both a writer and an actor. This fact will be true for all future time except if and when someone else accomplishes this (and only then would you need a new source). Do you agree? -Kreachure (talk) 21:15, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
But how would the automatic process know that the fact now needs an update? It would just continue refreshing the date until a human comes by and fixed it. Given Misplaced Pages is on a WP:NODEADLINE, that might be a long time during which the article will be wrong. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, many articles are wrong and outdated until an editor fixes it. That's how Misplaced Pages works. But there are many articles right now that are wrong because they still say "as of 2011", "as of 2009", etc. The template would at least fix those errors. Of course it wouldn't know when it "starts" being wrong, the same way an article about a person can't "know" it is now wrong because the person died and it still says he's alive. Of course the template would manually need to be removed when it is time, even if it becomes "wrong" for some time. IMO it would help articles stay "right" for longer than they would begin to be "wrong". The idea is that articles remain "right" as time passes instead of remaining outdated. -Kreachure (talk) 21:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I disagree that "as of 2009" is "wrong" in an article; outdated, yes, but until someone checks to see if what was true in 2009 is still true in 2012 (many things will be, but some things will not be), having it automatically increment as the years go by is a violation of WP:V. It would essentially be telling the reader "yes, we checked, and this is still accurate" when we haven't checked. 28bytes (talk) 21:51, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Kreachure, to do this automatically will cause too many problems, but what do you think about using "Obama is president{{Please update me|date=20 January 2013}}" for statements that we know needs to be updated at a specific date? jonkerz ♠talk 22:02, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
We have {{Update after}} for that (and we don't know your example). PrimeHunter (talk) 00:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) If the date updates itself then that means it will always stay the most current, in which case you can just use a template with current date. If it will at some point expire, then you cannot have it update automatically, because eventually it will make an error. So unless I'm missing something here, I don't see what this would achieve. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
(ec)I guess my point is that there are instances where the fact remains year after year, and that's when this template would be most useful. For cases with a time limit, it would also be useful, and you would simply remove it when it no longer is. If the Obama article has the phrase "as of 20XX" referring to his presidential term, you need to change it manually every year. It's easier to have a template that does this automatically, and then simply remove it by the end of his term. You would have to edit out the "as of 20XX" manually at the end anyway, template or no template. So at least it prevents edits concerning dates, which I often find on obscure articles, and hence the proposal. -Kreachure (talk) 21:31, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Exactly. WP:BOTPOL does not allow any automated processes to make errors when we are aware that those errors will happen. Be it 10 years or 100 years in the future, eventually it will make the article wrong. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 22:07, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
But what if there are only 8 planets? My76Strat (talk) 21:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
That's funny. Not helpful, but funny. Error fixed. -Kreachure (talk) 21:36, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
First off, you should propose to create a new template, because {{As of}} is already used for something else, namely to mark potentially dated statements. Adding your suggestion to the template would defeat its purpose. Also, there are a few magic words to insert the current year and so on, but using these in articles could cause trouble.
  • "As of 2011, Jimmy Hoffa's body has not been found." This should be used when there is a source for the statement, it also gives a hint that it may be found later.
  • "As of {{CURRENTYEAR}}, Jimmy..." should not be used, because it could be false, and we never need to point out to our readers what year it is. Instead, just write "Jimmy Hoffa's body has not been found". jonkerz ♠talk 21:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) This goes against the whole idea of Template:as of which is exactly to say when it was known to be true. Some articles are not edited for years, and even then they may not be updated with current information. Barack Obama will presumably be updated quickly when he is no longer president, but his presidency is mentioned in many articles which receive less attention. And articles likely to be updated can still cause problems. Misplaced Pages has many legitimate reusers. Some of them copy articles and never update their copy. If we say as of {{CURRENTYEAR}} and a reuser has software to display {{CURRENTYEAR}} correctly then in 10 years their version of Barack Obama may say "As of 2022, Obama is president". PrimeHunter (talk) 21:42, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

{{ec}} ever since my last comment, and here is the follow-on:

The proposal has merit, you proposed it well, and I'm sure it seemed a no-brainier. Just remember, sometimes you have to deal with people who have no brains; like me. Don't be discouraged, extract the good parts, and "soldier on". Now here's the irony; I proposed the same idea over a year ago, right here. (although my idea was not nearly as well presented as yours) In the end there were to many reasons to not do it.

I apologize if my comment about 8 planets seemed callous. I actually got a chuckle out of the deal, and I thank you for that measure of good cheer. Because it so perfectly illustrates a down side. We absolutely wouldn't want it said; "in 2012 there were 9 planets", because no one had updated the information.

In my proposal we discussed things like live feeds, automatically updating statistics like population, holders of public office and so on. We even discussed reverse updating, that would be perpetually accurate, when relating prose to the event. For example: "10 years ago the towers fell" would become "11 years ago" on 09/11/2012.

Since I've set time for the above; I'll share some insight I've gleaned along the way: There is an institutional nemesis; that prevails at stifling every automated form of editing ever tried! The few that are used, (begrudgingly tolerated) are to be "used at your own risk". And the mere prospect; that Δ lays bare; is at minimum, cautionary! Wiki-love to all - My76Strat (talk) 23:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to write this. It seems you considered ideas I wouldn't have thought of, they all sound intriguing. I guess that talking about ideas like these every now and again, even if they're shot down or not, is a in the end good thing in the collective struggle to improve WP. Soldiering on indeed! Cheers! -Kreachure (talk) 23:38, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I think that most of the objections stem from the (quite possible) future problem of presenting inaccurate (or just plain wrong) information, thus making Misplaced Pages look something like a fool, for instance: "George Washington was U.S. president as of 27 Jun 2012", a statement which couldn't possibly be true. So, let's flat out say that the information may be incorrect and invite users to edit the page to fix the statement, so that the veracity of the information presented is always in question (after all, it may have been true at the time of the last edit, but is it still true now?). So, I've gone and created an {{as of currently}} template that does just this. For instance: ] disappeared at, or sometime after, 2:45 pm on July 30, 1975. His body has not been discovered {{as of currently}}. would give: Jimmy Hoffa disappeared at, or sometime after, 2:45 pm on July 30, 1975. His body has not been discovered Template:As of currently. Banaticus (talk) 04:38, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Any admins live near East Lansing, MI?

Greetings,

Some of you may be familiar with THIS CLASS at MSU this semester where we're exploring and studying the concept of the Misplaced Pages administrator. One of the class projects is to create a model of an admin portal that organizes admin tools, discussions, etc. These portal proposals are being developed in student sandboxes. Many admins have generously agreed to volunteer their time to speak with our students as noted HERE. These conversations will help students to complete their assignments and better understand what Misplaced Pages admins do (and why they do what they do). Anyhow, one group would like to add some video to their admin portal project and were wondering if any admins live near East Lansing, MI. Of course, you would have to be willing to be interviewed, and to have video of your answers put up online. If you're interested, please leave a note on my talk page. Thanks so much. Best, --Jaobar (talk) 16:34, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hey Jaobar. CatScan says there are two admins in Michigan, though a) that list might not be complete or up-to-date and b) that doesn't specify where in Michigan. You might also try using a geonotice, as not everyone checks this page. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion to Add Editorial/Opinion Section to Current Events Pages... to Get Well Defined Arguments from Various Sides

All,

I would like to suggest that an editorial/opinion section be added to Misplaced Pages for current events. It is always a struggle to fully understand all sides of an argument through the popular media or through Misplaced Pages. Most often, the user comments sections of current events articles are most enlightening.

As Misplaced Pages is viewed as a trusted hub of information, delineating an editorial/opinion section, or a way for various sides of an argument to be understood more clearly would be a helpful addition to the site.

Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pko1219 (talk • contribs) 17:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

  • Oppose - this is the exact opposite of what Misplaced Pages is for. Personal opinion has absolutely zero place in any article here. → ROUX ₪ 17:34, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose - per Roux. Sven Manguard Wha? 14:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Alas, Misplaced Pages is not a social media site, nor is it a place for personal opinion. This proposal flies in the face of WP:POV, WP:OR and several parts of WP:NOT. Resolute 15:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Sides of an argument that are mentioned in reputable sources should be mentioned anyway in a Misplaced Pages article, in a neutral fashion. dci | TALK 21:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I believe the reason that the creator of this idea wishes for such an editorial section is in order to better cover all of the major points of view on a subject and therefore ensure that they are covered on Misplaced Pages. This does advance neutrality on the encyclopedia, in my opinion. The editor only wants a place where these opinions can be presented for later incorporation into articles. This is indeed a legitimate suggestion and does not fall into the category of what Misplaced Pages is not. Wer900 (talk) 22:49, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
    • So, for example, an article on the Syrian insurrection might discuss the viewpoints of several rebel groups, that of the government, and that of specific world governments? Or, an article on same-sex marriage would discuss pro, anti, and more intermediate viewpoints? If that's what is being suggested, this might be something worth considering. dci | TALK 19:13, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Reform

I'm afraid that this might get shot down as soon as I post it, but I'd like to say a few things about the role of polling and voting in our online community.

First, I'll make it clear that I strongly support the use of polling and voting on Misplaced Pages, and I believe that it is a useful way to establish a recognized consensus. Polling and voting may not be ideal substitutes for general consensus, but they are far more efficient and representative than certain ways currently in place on our community when it comes to selecting editors to serve as administrators, bureaucrats, and when determining the course we should take in the future.

There are often complaints about administrative overreaching or inappropriate behavior that flouts the guidelines we as a community expect of our highly-trusted delegates to these positions. An administrator is a person selected by fellow editors to perform highly important and occassionally sensitive maintenance tasks on the website. As such, the process of delegating editors to serve in this role can be rather tricky. Currently, administrators are appointed by bureaucrats, who take into consideration a quasi-election/discussion that hopes to establish consensus. However, a bureaucrat is not bound by the discussion; if the minority viewpoints are seen to be valid, the bureaucrat may support the editors falling into that category.

I believe that we must reform the administrative selection process to include a pure voting system, a smaller-scaled version of our Wikimedia Steward Elections that could take place in lieu of an RfA for a given candidate. This, I believe, would be a more efficient way of selecting these highly-trusted delegates because an editor supported by a great deal of the community, despite valid opposition, is more representative and likely to be trusted by larger amounts of editors. Some will say that voters might not be of an appropriate caliber to choose administrators, and they might be inclined to say that editors who oppose RfA candidates because of their lack of experience in certain fields are correct in their views. Sometimes, the current system shoots down editors who could be outstanding administrators just because they haven't been active in certain battlegrounds of our website. On a website that devotes pages to information for "wannabe" administrators, it seems unnecessary to voice objections to candidacies because of the respective candidate's record in a particular area. Yes, an editor needs some experience to become an administrator, but I believe that editors voting in election-RfAs would be experienced enough themselves to select a qualified and worthy candidate. Let's not judge a high-quality vehicle by the tire-marks it makes.

Secondly, I think that polling when it comes to community decisions would be a good substitute for the often heated discussions that often arise about controversial issues and then get mired down in the muck of angry, misled vitriol. Take for example the once-never-abating proposals to rename our article on the Libyan Civil War. This led to high amounts of tension on that article's talk page, tension that is unhealthy in any encyclopedic community or in any community, for that matter. When it comes to debates like this, largely content-inspired, voting could show how the majority of community members feel on the subject, and then bureaucrats or trusted administrators thought of as representatives of the community could make a decision as to how this result compares with the depiction of the debated item in reputable sources.

Finally, voting would be a good substitute for some policy-making decisions. Policies should not be in place if a majority of editors involved in discussing the said policy do not agree on the status quo or the issue in question. A good argument should not be the basis for a policy, for a policy change, or for a proposal, no matter how our administrative and bureaucratic elements feel about those arguments. Instead, a majority of editors involved in discussing the topic should make the final call when it comes to determining policy on Misplaced Pages. Yes, this is an encyclopedia, and we don't want to get too far from our main goal, but no online effort like this can survive without an active and heard commmunity. We must rely on knowledgeable and diligent majorities, and not always eloquent minorities. dci | TALK 02:08, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

My understanding is that voter participation in RfA tends to be low and/or insular, so I'd be wary of making it a pure vote. "knowledgeable and diligent majorities, and not always eloquent minorities" — False dilemma. --Cybercobra (talk) 19:23, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I see that my statement about "eloquent minorities" was probably distracting; what I really meant is that decision-making should be made by the majority or by the delegates of the majority of interested/active editors. dci | TALK 20:38, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Take it from someone who has the same problem, your block of text is massive and almost no one is going to read it. Let me try and break down your argument:
1. You want to do pure voting instead of discussions for RfA.
2. You want to do pure voting instead of discussions for contentions RfCs.
3. You want to do pure voting instead of discussions for policy decisions.
I'm pretty sure that you're going to get very little support for any of those tings. For one thing, the consensus model does work, except in a small minority of particularly dramatic cases, and let's be honest here, no system is going to solve the truly dramatic cases. Secondly, often enough discussion leads to new options not originally put on the table, pure voting would deprive us of those options. Sven Manguard Wha? 20:28, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I doubt that any support will be forthcoming, actually, but I wanted to voice these opinions here, to see what others thought of them and to see if anyone thought voting/polling could be adapted successfully anywhere on the website. Out of the three summaries you created, I'd have to say I feel that the third is most important. Policy discussions like these aren't very common, from what I've seen, and I think that our policies need to reflect the views of the majority of interested/active editors. My striking above should show this more clearly. dci | TALK 20:38, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm not going to revert it, but striking out other people's comments, even if they're comments on your comments, is considered grossly inappropriate. Since you're clearly acting in good faith, I'm not going to make deal of it. In the future though, avoid what you just did. Sven Manguard Wha? 21:07, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I was only doing it to emphasize a point, not to contradict or oppose anything you posted (all of which was true). I am extremely sorry. dci | TALK 21:28, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I think you should change this proposal into an essay and tag it with {{essay}} because this reflects mainly your ideas and opinions. However, I'd like to say kudos to writing this out. Regards, Whenaxis talk · contribs | DR goes to Wikimania! 00:25, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I'll try that. I have one copy in my userspace; I can copy the content into a new article into a WP-namespace essay. dci | TALK 15:07, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Generally, consensus is established by an administrator or bureaucrat determining which side has the strongest arguments, with the best interpretation of Misplaced Pages's policy and guidelines. The reason that this works so well is that a strong argument based in policy does not just have the support of the people involved in the discussion, but the support of the community as a whole. Policies are determined by community consensus, with a much larger discussion, which is why consensus rather that voting usually works. If you replace consensus with voting, everyone's vote is equal, regardless of whether it is based in solid understanding of policy or just made on a whim. Once voting replaces consensus, each decision really is only made by the small group of people involved in the discussion at that time, rather than the wider community who have lain down our policies and guidelines. ItsZippy 13:57, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Having myself run a contentious RfC, I can say that the discussion was very fruitful in refining the ideas. The final version was much closer to something the community as a whole might have endorsed. Likewise, although RfA is a bit of a battleground, there are good oppose votes at RfA that give the candidate constructive criticism on what to do before reapplying - not something we want to eliminate! Dcoetzee 17:44, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
I prefer to say "effective opposes" rather than "good opposes". I've seen several RFAs where the whole debate turned and the RFA tanked because of something that came up in the discussion, in a straight vote such RFAs would conclude with a success followed by high drama. I doubt if any RFA !voters check everything that a candidate has done, some I suspect check very little. But a large proportion of the Supporters will switch if they see a civil, diff supported oppose that gives good reason why a particular candidate should not become an admin (I've also seen spectacularly incivil opposes be ignored by the community despite them hiding a solid oppose reason beneath the rhetoric). ϢereSpielChequers 14:29, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

"Endorsed edit" flag

To me a nice feature to have would be a way for one or more registered editors to flag a history-page edit as "endorsed". That way, when I look at the history of a page, I can see what edits have already been examined, rather than having 20 different people all checking the same edits. If the endorsement is from an editor whom I have already developed a respect for, then I can simply assume the change was okay.

Does this seem like it would be useful as a productivity gain? Regards, RJH (talk) 20:54, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

We currently have no real consensus on pending changes, which is what you appear to be suggesting. Cheers! Reaper Eternal (talk) 20:56, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Well no, I wasn't referring to that. I mean a qualified editor could go to the history page for an article and find that beside each edit entry there would be, say, a check box with a message that says something like "Endorse edit". Once that is checked by one or more editors, anybody else viewing the history page would see a statement next to the edit entry saying something like "(Edit currently endorsed by ABC, DEF, GHI)".
Does that make it clearer? It would mean tracking which editors endorse what edits, of course, so there would be a greater load on the database to track endorsements as an active control. But hopefully the editor's work load would be reduced as a consequence. Regards, RJH (talk) 18:17, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
This seems to be something of the like of flagged revisions, or maybe I'm just slow to understand this. →Στc. 18:31, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes it seems like it. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks. Regards, RJH (talk) 22:42, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
This proposal relies on trust towards the editors. Thus, unless the ability to endorse edits is somehow limited to a small community of "trusted" users, it want work. But even if we create a gruop of endorsers, it will be either too small to have noticeable effect or too large to maintain mutual trust. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:35, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting a need to create such a constrained group, other than to limit it to experienced editors. The number of editors who regularly watch a particular page is almost always limited, and the aliases of the editors are often familiar to others watching the page. Each edit requires all of said watchers to perform a check. I'm proposing to shortcut that cycle a little. Regards, RJH (talk) 22:42, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Seems to be a good idea, I think that there should be a minimum requirement for endorsement by two (auto)confirmed editors in order for an edit to be endorsed. This eliminates many problems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wer900 (talk • contribs) 15:56, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
  • The flagged revisions plan had two more-or-less independent parts. The first was trialled (to much acrimony, as we all remember) as pending changes. The second part - patrolled revisions - is pretty much exactly what you're describing here, except slightly simpler - it's just a flag saying, in effect, "checked and clean". It should be substantially less controversial to implement, especially since it doesn't impact in any way on what any reader actually sees (the main criticism of PC), but I fear the memories of last time might make it a hard sell! Shimgray | talk | 13:42, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Copyvio test in the editfilter

A large proportion of newbies are from the copypaste generation and need to be taught that writing your own words is not the same as copying from other websites. Currently we do this laboriously and painfully by bots checking after the event, and people sweeping up after the bots. But that is a design from a different internet era. What we should have today is an edit filter that incorporates the search that corensearchbot does, so if someone clicks save on a paragraph of new text the system can spot that this is a straight copy of foo.com and explain to them why we don't do that. I think that would be less bitey for the newbies who need to be taught about Copyvio, and less work for the rest of us. If there is a serious processing overhead then you could leave certain edits unchecked, rollback for example. ϢereSpielChequers 17:57, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

No idea if it's possible, but it seems like a good idea. We could start with new articles, and with a high certainty bar. That way we can see to any problems and easily expand it. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 18:40, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I don't think it's possible, since MediaWiki and specifically the filter system can't "search" the general Internet, which is why a bot does it. Further, I suspect that would be a massive overhead. --Izno (talk) 18:42, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
It is impossible with the currently available MediaWiki software. Reaper Eternal (talk) 18:45, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
One of the wonderful things about Moore's Law is that a massive overhead one year is pretty serious number crunching a couple of years later and relatively trivial on a slightly longer timescale. One of the cool things about this idea is that it would still be useful even if we first had to throttle it to a random paragraph from a random subset of new articles. Even better target a few high risk ones such as those by newbies or by students in the Academic outreach program. As the cost of processing falls so the proportion screened can be stepped up. As for Reaper's comment, OK so this requires a change to the mediawiki software, that isn't impossible, I suspect we even have the source-code. ϢereSpielChequers 23:37, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I think you can try suggesting this at: Misplaced Pages:Edit filter/Requested. Whenaxis talk · contribs | DR goes to Wikimania! 21:52, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
I've raised it there, but they would need changes made to the mediawiki software before they could do this. So I'd like to see if we can get consensus here that it would be a good idea if it were possible to implement, and if people like the idea I'll file a bugzilla request to change the mediawiki software to allow this to be done. ϢereSpielChequers 13:23, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
At this point in time it should not be in the edit filter as it should have a bit of human intelligence behind it to weed out wikipedia mirrors and copying of free material. However I do support the idea of an automatic bot run or toolserver util that would detect this soon after the material is added. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:47, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

In A Nutshell

I am Robert a college student offering Misplaced Pages a business proposition. Although it may seem odd to accept an offer from such a young mind, I think some of the best ideas often come from the unlikeliest of places. This email may be ignored, and deleted but hopefully someone out there will read it through.

First of all, I think that Misplaced Pages is a great source for people and I hope that the website never stops running. I do, however, feel as though it could be enhanced to obtain more success. My idea is to develop an App (on the IPhone etc.) called "Nutshell" that is based off the old saying "in a nutshell." People could enter what they are looking for into the search bar (a nut) and it would crack open with their brief results (that could be drawn from Misplaced Pages sites). They could then possibly send their "nut" to friends, have it put directly into their bibliography, and more. This would be a simple and, I think, catchy way of people gaining and sharing information. It could revitalize Misplaced Pages and also make research a little more enjoyable.

I think it would work really well with Misplaced Pages though, as it has always been my first choice when it comes to research!

Thank you for your time,

Robert Peterpaul — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.100.224.95 (talk) 04:28, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Implement an incentive mechanism for prolific editors

I think Misplaced Pages should implement an incentive mechanism for prolific editors. Human nature is selfish, and human beings invest labor for the purpose of getting incentives. A lot of Wikipedians invest a large amount of time to build world's largest encyclopedia. But there are never remembered, they don't get any recognition outside the Misplaced Pages administration pages.

Misplaced Pages has a tremendous impact on popular culture, on the education system of the entire world. Misplaced Pages is in news everyday throughout the world. It is time to acknowledge the contributions of the largest encyclopedia's architects. How? Implement an incentive mechanism. I'm not sure how this can be implemented, but off-wiki recognition (we already have on-wiki rewards like barnstars etc) such as a certificate will give justice to those who have worked hard here.

Benefits of issuing certificates to prolific editors: This will encourage more people to register and contribute, particularly students who can use those certificate to increase their CV value by showing their extra-curricular activity in associated with world's largest encyclopedia. By issuing certificates to prolific editors, given that they meet a specific set of criteria, will encourage them to contribute more and constructively, and they will not view their contributions in Misplaced Pages as a waste of time. Thoughts? Contributing to Misplaced Pages will be a status symbol. Editors will proudly describe themselves as Misplaced Pages Editor. --SupernovaExplosion 12:41, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I think incentives would be very counter productive. Less hassle with trolls vandals POV pushers and eejits in general would help most. A bit of automated appreciation could help but anything too official or prominent is I think liable to the law of unintended consequences and will turn many good contributors off. Your basic premise is wrong and totally inappropriate for the editors here. Dmcq (talk) 13:03, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Why will giving certificates to prolific editors turn other prolific contributors away? --SupernovaExplosion 13:10, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Why are you on Misplaced Pages in the first place? To get certificates which are an equivalent to money in helping you get a job? If you give a person money they are far less likely to work cooperatively and only do what is directly in their own self interest. Dmcq (talk) 13:22, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Why are you turning the discussion about an idea to personal level? When a person gets incentive only when their activities benefits the project, the person's self-interest will not be in conflict with the interest of the project. For example, if a person gets a certificate for helping to promote 20 articles to FA status, then the person's self-interest (i.e. developing the articles and getting certificates) will ultimately benefit the project. I don't see any conflict of interest here. Or take another example, if a person gets a certificate for taking and uploading a specific number of Featured Picture-quality photographs, will that harm the project or benefit the project? --SupernovaExplosion 13:32, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
I was hoping you might be able to look inside yourself and examine why you are here to get an insight into why money or money equivalents are not in general a good idea for something like this. We don't want to get into the situation with doctors where they are paid the full amount if 50% iof their patients hav some test - and later on find practically all doctors have almost precisely 50% and no more tested. Unintended consequences Dmcq (talk) 13:41, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Your counter-argument is argumentum ad consequentiam fallacy. What you are saying may happen in the current system also. --SupernovaExplosion 14:17, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Are you saying we should do something despite the probable consequences being bad for Misplaced Pages? Dmcq (talk) 14:42, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
This discussion is getting tiresome, let other editors input their thoughts. --SupernovaExplosion 14:45, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
It would be likely to increase the number of poor submissions to WP:GAN and WP:FAC by editors looking for the next shiny badge, without increasing the number of quality contributions from the real content writers. Reaper Eternal (talk) 18:26, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
There is a good "selfish" reason to edit Misplaced Pages: "I want to have access to an encyclopedia that is as good, as it can be.". That reason should be sufficient. And even if it is not, there is another good "selfish" reason: "I want to learn something, thus I will write an article about it, for I know that the best way to learn anything is teaching others (and maybe someone will criticise the article and thus point out the things I have misunderstood).".
Also, the "incentive mechanisms" can encourage things that we shouldn't encourage and attract the editors we should actually discourage from editing. For example, making 20 featured articles for "certificates" can be achieved both by making 20 good articles and by somehow trying to promote articles that are, well, less good...
Thus, adding additional incentives doesn't seem to be a very good idea... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 00:44, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure we ought to be rewarding people for pissing away their lives in cyberspace but that aside, it should be the quality, not quantity of edits that is recognised.--Ykraps (talk) 18:45, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I just wanted to post here to say that I agree with OP that there need to be more incentives for editors. This opinion seems to be quite unpopular unfortunately. A few weeks ago, I proposed User ratings. But you may be interested in the following currently-existing "selfish" incentives (a little in my opinion):

Leonxlin (talk) 03:24, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

I think we need a serious essay to explain and ground the attitude not to give back for serious contributors also when this is appears easily possible. Instead of calling the opponent selfish, it may be more important to explain why project implementing the "no reward" attitude remains moral and worth contributing to. It may not be a wrong approach but it would be great to have some calm and deep explanation of it. Audriusa (talk) 12:51, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
I have tried to write and essay along these lines. Improvements welcome. I have seen frequently turning the discussion of this kind to a personal level and do not think this is a best way to help people to understand. Audriusa (talk) 15:20, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

"Passive" links

I had an idea about links that I'd like to gauge interest in. WP:Overlinking gives the guidance that common/major nations, religions, etc. shouldn't be linked unless they're particularly relevant to the article's topic. But if a reader happens to see the name of a country and want to read our article on it, it seems silly to make them type it in the search bar instead of just click the word.

My idea is a new style of link that only appears to be a link if you mouse over it.

For example, in the Mustard seed article, there is this sentence: "Major producers of mustard seeds include Canada (90%), Hungary, Great Britain, India, Pakistan and the United States."

None of the countries are linked. Making them all into normal ] would be too distracting, and against the guidance of WP:overlinking. But what if we were to make them into passive links, that only appear to be a link if the reader mouses over them? This way, it would be easier to navigate to other articles, without the visual clutter of overlinking.

The wiki syntax for passive links could be quite simple: perhaps three brackets instead of two, ]]. Regular links would continue to be displayed normally.

I'd love to hear some feedback on this. 28bytes (talk) 17:16, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I like this idea, though I found that if I have Firefox's search bar set to enwiki, then when I right click on a highlighted section, there is an option to "Search Misplaced Pages (en) for ''". Adding new markup to wikicode may be prohibitively complicated, considering there are already little things like this in the browser. —Akrabbim 19:01, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Firefox might do this, but do other browsers? Sven Manguard Wha? 22:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
I don't hate the idea, but the addition of so much markup may make text nearly uneditable. It may become viable when we switch to a WYSIWYG editor. Josh Parris 22:04, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Having hidden links like this might be confusing to the reader. Do they drag their mouse over every term that they want to look up? If this was implemented, maybe it should be done in a standard manner on every page based on a list of key words that are commonly used and have a rich context. Regards, RJH (talk) 23:12, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
I think this is a dreadful idea. If I'm interested in mustard seeds what does following a link to Great Britain or India add to my understanding? A link to mustard seed production in India yes, but not the country. Malleus Fatuorum 00:57, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Depends on whether you're looking for specific information or just browsing; back in the "olden days" when overlinking was more prevalent I'd often click over to India or shrub or hectare or what have you. 28bytes (talk) 01:13, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
I support the desire, but agree that the additional markup is a major negative. I'd prefer the following: double-click on any word to select it, then right-click and the menu (which currently, for me, includes the ability to look up the word in Yahoo or a dictionary) would include an option to go to a Misplaced Pages article, if one exists. I don't know how to build such functionality, but obviously, it can be done, and it would not add additional markup to the article.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:23, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Articles for Improvement

Currently, there is no active location where one can simply search and find all articles which need improvement in some way or another. Yes, the Article Improvement Drive did exist at one time, but it is now deprecated and no longer serves any useful function. Furthermore, that was merely a one-off "shock drive" to improve a large volume of articles in a short period of time, not a sustained effort which would give Misplaced Pages a permanent way to correct itself and improve in areas of style, clarity, and its width and depth of knowledge. It is to these ends that I propose a new Misplaced Pages system of identifying Articles for Improvement.

This system should be organized based on subject matter (Astronomy, Religion, etc.) and should also be divided into subsections which identify the specific improvements which need to be made to the page:

  • Format and Conventions - this section will identify pages where the formatting of the page is bad, where data on the page can be better presented through such a change, the quality of the use of English on the page, et cetera.
  • Clarity - this section will contain articles which require an improvement in their style of writing, their verbosity/brevity, the way they are split into sections and subsections, et cetera.
  • Width of Knowledge - just that. This section will deal with all areas where articles have not given much information on the topic at hand.
  • Depth of Knowledge - this page will have all articles where a large amount of information is presented, but not explained well
  • Completeness of Lists - this section will deal with whether lists have all of the data which they intend to cover
  • Facts and Sources - this section will identify articles without inline citations, where facts appear dubious, where facts are outdated, and all pages with over two (or whatever number is most appropriate) tags.

In order to better integrate with the existing Misplaced Pages interface - the widespead tags such as the cleanup tag and others - all such templates could be modified in order to make a listing, on a remote Misplaced Pages page, of links to all articles that hold them. Each tag's output will be placed in a subsection of the Articles for Improvement page most relevant to its contents. While this would doubtless be an arduous task, it would be much simpler than creating an entirely new infrastructure of tags, which would have to be placed on all pages with the same tags, a task which could never be done.

It is my hope that this brings to the attention of the broader community the massive number of pages which have these problems but go unnoticed. Currently, there are several hotspots of editing with excess activity resulting in edit wars, separated by netherworld articles which have little and transient activity outside of that of a few dedicated users. As time wears on, these articles are seen as increasingly irrelevant and obsolete, and indeed, in all of the errors which they accumulate and keep, unfixed, as time goes on, this becomes increasingly true. If we had a mechanism - easily noticable, easily accessed, and centralized - then article improvements could go where they are needed most, improving the quality of Misplaced Pages as a whole and ensuring that some subjects are not ignored entirely.

Wer900 (talk) 02:44, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

You may find the subcategories of Category:Misplaced Pages maintenance helpful, particularly the subcategories of Category:Misplaced Pages maintenance categories sorted by month. Anomie⚔ 03:56, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Doubtless that page has many resources, however, it does not seem to be terribly inviting and it would be easier to navigate if it were broken up into some broad categories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wer900 (talk • contribs) 04:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Would something like this be what you are looking for? It is sorted by Wikiproject, so you could focus on topics that interest you most. The complete list of enrolled projects is here. Resolute 04:34, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
While it is an excellent tool, make no mistake, the listings there are a bit too specific. Listing by WikiProject is a good idea, but many of them are extremely specific and need to be established as sub-groups under a larger umbrella. As for the specific errors in the articles, their identification seems to be good but the sheer number and complexity of all of the ways in which the page could be improved would be extremely intimidating to new users. New users are the lifeline of this community, and anything we can do to obtain and keep them would be an improvement.
This has come pretty far. All that remains to be done, now, is to group the many categories of errors as subcategories under larger umbrella areas, and to link up the template messages with placement in these categories. This will make it more accessible to all users beyond a few specialist, experienced and inexperienced. Wer900 (talk) 05:45, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Separate definitions from counterarguments

One thing that would help on Misplaced Pages (given it's goal of providing a neutral point of view) would be a policy to separate description/definition from counterarguments. If neutral descriptions on any subject came first and counterarguments / refutations were segregated into their own separate non-defining sections, that would help. But what actually happens is Misplaced Pages editors trip over each other to break up sentences describing ideas they don't like with contradictory sources so that the actual meaning of what is being refuted is almost completely if not totally obscured.

What Misplaced Pages says now is something like this:

"Controversial -ism A means X but X is not true and Y but Y is not true and Z although Z is not true. "

That's no way to write an encyclopedia. A readable format would be something like this:

"Controversial -ism A means X, Y and Z. It has been promoted by so-and-so and such-and-such.
According to and , X is not true.
According to and , Y is not true.
According to and , Z is not true."

This has long been a problem on all the articles dealing with the controversy over evolution, Creationism, intelligent design and various concepts in psuedoscience, politics, religion and philosophy. If Misplaced Pages is meant to say what academia thinks is true that's fine, but not inserted into the middle of sentences meant to provide definitions of alternative views! --BenMcLean (talk) 18:02, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

There are already interesting Misplaced Pages policies on fringe theories but nothing which protects definitions so that they remain grammatically intact such as I propose as far as I know. The practical upshot of my suggestion would probably be either a new policy that would be something like "Misplaced Pages:Keep definitions intact" or a new section in Misplaced Pages:Be neutral in form which states something like, "All definitions should remain grammatically intact and not be broken up with contrary information for the sake of neutrality and readability." --BenMcLean (talk) 18:20, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Have you presented your thought to the people who might be chief culprits of what you disapprove of, i.e. Wikipedians who zealously police WP:FRINGE? Misplaced Pages:SKEPTICISM would be another venue to get some unsentimental feedback on your proposal. Alternatively you could notify them of the present section. __meco (talk) 12:03, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Is there a fundamental issue on some mathematics pages?

On a great portion of the wikipedia mathematics pages it involves terms and jargons for users above the level of someone who needs to know whats actually on the page. And if one follows the links on these jargons, one gets a page full of more jargons(with links), one then follows one of those links, to a page full of complex jargon, and so on, and sometimes you go full circle back to the first article you where on none the wiser. It seems to be a network of complex texts and to explain each complex text, it refers to another complex text which refers to another and another and so on. Even one who knows their math, might be mystified at the large role some math articles place on complex terms, that they may have forgoten by now. Plus, its very unfriendly to one new to the subject matter. Editor0000001 (talk) 00:07, 5 March 2012 (UTC)editor0000001

Being specific about the particular articles that worry you on the talk page or the maths project page would help more. I get the feeling you are looking for elementary maths from the point of view of teaching people, is this correct? Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia and doesn't provide a learning package for subjects, it is supposed to be more for looking up and reading about particular topics. So for addition it doesn't teach people how to add, it describes the history etc and methods used and how it can be applied to objects and lengths and these were considered differently, that sort of thing. Dmcq (talk) 08:59, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps you find some tags for your predicament at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Mathematics or User:Gregbard/Mathematosis which are two pages I recently visited... __meco (talk) 11:53, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Grehgbard's mathematosis has bee deleted where he tried sticking it round the project as being offensive and silly. Please don't go pointing new editors at it. I see that other thing you referred to was also written initially by Gregbard. Just avoid that sort of thing. Dmcq (talk) 12:57, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
There is an essay about making technical articles more accessible at WP:TECHNICAL. WP:LEAD also has a bit about it and WP:MOSMATH some specifically about maths. Dmcq (talk) 13:04, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
We do have a problem with editors showing off their knowledge by using the most obscure terms rather than explaining material in plain English, but that problem exists in basically all subject areas that have any technical component, not just maths. Additionally, some editors honestly find it easier to write in their field's jargon. Explaining things well is a rare talent. That's why there are more good mathematicians than there are good teachers of mathematics. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:32, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Improving accessibility of math articles is important. That said, there are always going to be highly technical topics that require substantial background to understand, and we don't want to give all necessary background in the article. Perhaps a solution is to clearly indicate which articles to consult for more background, emphasising the ones that are more accessible. Dcoetzee 22:27, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Though, it seems to me their are some very good mathematicians(or whatever subject), out their that need to look up something in an encyclopedia as a refresher. But, it seems to me that all the jargon spirals into confusion to one who has a very good knowledge of math, but has not been to college/highschool in the last decade. Is there any wikipedia project devoted to making articles more comprehensible(please)? Editor0000001 (talk) 01:02, 9 March 2012 (UTC)editor0000001

See Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 35#Easy as pi? (subsectioned and sub-subsectioned).
—Wavelength (talk) 01:43, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
I completely agree with Editor0000001. A large number of those articles rely too much on background knowledge in the area it is trying to address. I.e. they seem to be written for people who already know the subject, almost as if they were refresher summaries rather than introductions. An example of this is Measure (mathematics). Regards, RJH (talk) 03:12, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Actually I think the measure article has one of the better leads and is aimed at about the right level, those who just about know enough already to be able to grasp the bare basics. I agree though there are quite a few though where the lead assumes knowledge that one would only have if one already knew quite a bit about the topic, things like talking about Minkowski space in the lead of Lorentz transformation for instance. It is a pity that Easy as pi discussion has got so messed up it is a waste of time. I think the various technical type projects are very aware of the problem but even for those editors who really try and do something about it there is a huge amount which is jut so bread and butter to someone who is any good at the topics that it is hard to figure out exactly how little people might know who might reasonably be expected to be able to get the gist of it. Dmcq (talk) 09:33, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Dcoetzee that after a certain point a topic may naturally become complex enough that it may not be immediately understandable by the general public. And that applies to advanced biochemistry as much as it does to mathematics. As for users "showing off their knowledge" that is not always the case, and a separate reason may be that some users do not write pages from scratch, but use class notes, etc. they have developed for teaching the topic, and just use the notes they have on their computer as the basis for the article. And class notes on a graduate level class almost always assume prior knowledge. The fundamental problem, as always, is the need for more editors with infinite time to spend on Wiikipedia. Yet, overall, I would say that the Misplaced Pages mathematical articles are far superior to those in computer science. So available energies should probably be directed towards current needs. History2007 (talk) 05:47, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Special:Unwatchedpages

Special:Unwatchedpages is currently available only to admins. My understanding is that this is to prevent vandals from targeting these pages and getting away with large-scale vandalism that would go unnoticed. However, I can imagine the benefits of established users being able to access this page, such as those who enjoy NPP, those heavily involved in Wikiprojects (to find pages that would fit within a project scope) and those who like to do cleanup, among others.

I'm thinking that some kind of a user right, similar to rollback but with perhaps more stringent requirements would take care of the vandal issue.

Are there any other problems that could arise from allowing established users access to this page? Good idea? Boring idea? Terrible idea :)? Nformation 00:58, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I like it. Good idea.AerobicFox (talk) 02:47, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
IMO "boring idea" since the special page is basically useless. The list contains only 1000 pages, and currently it consists entirely of articles beginning with certain punctuation characters and the numbers 0 and 1; it doesn't even get into the A's. Yes, we apparently really do have that many unwatched articles. And even were that to be somehow fixed, how much good would it really do when a page watched only by a user who hasn't logged in since 2007 would still not be included in the list? Anomie⚔ 02:50, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
I like the idea, but considering the information which Anomie provides, it may not be as good as it looks at first glance. __meco (talk) 11:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
In principle, it's an interesting idea, perhaps if the unwatched pages list was improved. It might be worth extending the scope of the list to include pages not watched by an active editor (we can define that later). If that were to happen, I think that the idea has merit and could be potentially useful. I'm sure more improvements could be made, but I like it in principle. ItsZippy 20:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the detailed feedback, Anomie. Itzippy, I like your thinking. I was going to propose something similar, maybe a list of pages watched by less than one or two editors. Is it possible there are a decent amount of pages that were created earlier on in WP's history that only ended up being watched by the creator? Kind of like a deep web version of WP. Nformation 21:01, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Back in the days of the great unsourced BLP madness, the issue of unwatched BLPs came up. I suggested then to have a bot track changes at Special:Unwatchedpages and produce a list so that the people of the mindset it takes to monitor NPP and recent changes could check on these articles. It still strikes me as a potentially good idea. Resolute 01:21, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

well if any established editor here wants to add the first 1000 pages on Special:Unwatched they can ask me or an an adminstrator get them emailed. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:56, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
And to add to the possibilities apparently the toolserver can give this information. This would be the way to procede beyond the first 1000. But currently releasing this information is not permitted. Just think how pages get on watch lists and you will get the idea of how many are unwatched or watched by only the creator. Prolific gnomes probably do not add every page they touch to a watchlist. So a report on pages that have been substantially edited by only one person will likely show those with only have one watcher. And if the report goes on to show those pages where the creator is no longer active then you have a list of pages at risk. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:23, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
General topics aside, at a more detailed level, does it matter if a technical page is not watched? I am sorry, but there are so many pages out there full of incorrect information, and "vendor planted items" that getting watched by those not familiar with the topic does not make much difference. I see them every day, say Dynamic programming language, tagged as confusing since 2009. What difference does it make if anyone watches it? It is 70% incorrect information and a list of links, some being promo oriented (I saw that someone managed to get a link to just one person's work: Erik Meijer - so unrepresentative of the field). So I think the entire mentality of "page watching" is no longer working. A few, closely watched Misplaced Pages technical pages have very high quality, and then there is the other 80%... History2007 (talk) 16:32, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

A clearing house for information mining of external media

I would like to see Wikipedians organize a clearing house for bits of information harvested from various types of media, indexing the finds by topic and where possible by names of articles for which the discovered information could possibly be of interest. This effort could be organized under the auspices of a dedicated WikiProject that would devise and set up the various mechanisms and protocols by which this enterprise would operate. __meco (talk) 11:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Resource Exchange. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  13:18, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
I have notified that project and suggested the discussion (hopefully there will be one) should take place primarily here. Eventually, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Council may also be a venue for inclusion in this proposal. __meco (talk) 14:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Council#Indications of relevant reference books, specifically encyclopedias and dictionaries, to individual projects (permanent link here).
—Wavelength (talk) 17:51, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

New users discouraged by loss of work

Moved to WP:VPR#Keep drafts of edited pages by NYKevin @829, i.e. 18:53, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

One thing I've noticed after clerking WP:HD for a few weeks is that about once a week we get a post like this: "I made an article and can't find it. Where is it?" Inevitably, the asker's only contribution is the question. This is disturbing to me because I think it is discouraging users from contributing ("Well, I tried to make an article, but it vanished!"). Obviously some portion of these users are actually making their contributions while logged out; I don't see much we can do about those. But we can deal with people failing to click "Save page". The average user does not read modal dialog boxes saying things like "This page is asking you to confirm that you want to leave...". If a dialog appears, the average user will just click through it . The problem is that the average user doesn't realize which button is "cancel" so half the time, they miss! And the rest of the time, they correctly pick "stay on page" only to find themselves staring at the edit box, wondering how to save their stuff without committing to it. Eventually, they give up. I think Misplaced Pages ought to automatically back up entered text if the user leaves without saving, much like Gmail's drafts feature . Basically, it would create yet another "My whatever" link along the top of the screen ("My drafts") which would store the wikitext and (original) oldid for drafts (so that an edit conflict would be correctly generated if necessary). Thoughts? --NYKevin @170, i.e. 03:04, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

+1 like Josh Parris 05:32, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. Wonderful idea, and not useful just for them! I frequently make large edits to low-edit-traffic articles and find myself periodically having to save the work-in-progress in a file. I could create a sandbox for the purpose, but that's such a hassle, as it requires either a disruptive move or a history merge later. Saving draft edits on-wiki would be immensely useful. However, on any high-edit-traffic article they would rapidly go "stale" as new edits come in, but at least the new content could be merged into the latest revision manually. The draft saves can be done in the background by Javascript so they don't disrupt editing. Frankly, I can't see any downside to this idea. Dcoetzee 08:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment - At the risk of coming over as a cold-hearted bastard, competence is required and I do not believe that a new editor incapable of figuring out how to save a page would be likely to read and understand our (numerous) policies and guidelines. Therefore, I'm content for them to be discouraged and for them to not contribute material that will probably need deleting. The link given above () gives some prime examples of people I would hate to see ruining our hard work. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹ 09:00, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
    • All users are new at one time. They learn by participating. Users who cannot save edits cannot receive feedback from other editors on their edits and learn to be productive contributors. Also, as I noted above, the proposed feature is also useful for experienced editors. Dcoetzee 17:00, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
      • Also, experts may be highly competent in their own field but have little time "to read and understand our (numerous) policies and guidelines"—I guess that tends to happen quite a lot. Although no expert, as a new user I remember worrying about the possibility of losing my work (before realising that it could often be recovered by using the back button). As a Gmail user, I find the autosave feature very helpful. I know nothing about feasibility considerations here though. —MistyMorn (talk) 18:27, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment IMO, this would be better done as a gadget using Web storage, rather than storing random potential edits on Misplaced Pages's servers. Either way, it would also need some logic to avoid making bad changes if the page has changed between when the draft was stored and when it was reloaded (i.e. either throw away the draft, try to do some sort of diff-and-merge if wgCurRevisionId has changed, or reset the hidden fields in the edit form such that an edit conflict will be thrown if necessary when submitted). Anomie⚔ 12:09, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
    • I could implement a prototype of something like this myself using database storage on Toolserver and a Javascript extension. I think the last option you suggested, forcing an edit conflict, is the ideal way to deal with the case where there are intervening changes, since it already gives them all the info they need to do a manual merge, although I'm not entirely sure the best way to actually do this. Dcoetzee 17:04, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment It already exists as mw:Extension:Drafts and writing by foundation a employee. — Dispenser 21:27, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
By the way, there is a Firefox add-on called "Lazarus" () that is supposed to do just that... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 18:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Commonly, however, when users are saying, "I made an article and now I can't find it," the article has usually just been deleted so only admins can see their real first contribution. Reaper Eternal (talk) 20:54, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Don't admins usually notify the author when they do that? --NYKevin @036, i.e. 23:51, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Sadly, many just zap it and never say a word. (Many also commonly assume the tagger has alerted the author.) Reaper Eternal (talk) 22:38, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Surprising redirections

I've often had the experience of using Misplaced Pages's search box, say typing in "apple sauce" and finding myself deposited on an article entitled "lubricating agents." This leaves me wondering, "What's going on? Am I to conclude that some people use apple sauce as a lubricant? Or maybe the relationship between the two concepts is that machinery used in fabricating apple sauce requires lubrication? Or, of course, maybe the redirect was just a mistake?"

It's my sense that if people are going to create redirects, then it's their responsibility to have pity on those poor surfers who may find themselves confronted with a very startling article and having to perform a combination of detective work and guess work to figure out just why they've been dumped where they have. Here's an explicit example of the problem and what I think ought to be required of editors.

I've not been able to find any existing policies that address this. But I do believe it poses a serious problem for Misplaced Pages's quality. Anybody have any ideas about good ways to tackle this in the community?—PaulTanenbaum (talk) 17:02, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Often, as I think might be the case here, poor redirects are just vandalism - someone probably thought it would be funny. If you ever see something like this, please revert it. Sometimes it is not vandalism and the redirects are unclear, which is a problem. Sometimes it is the quality of the article - the redirect may make perfect sense but the article may not be up to the standard. In these cases, it is best to get the article improved. Sometimes the redirect could be improved - either pointing to a different page or pointing to a specific part of the page. I think this encompasses any possible redirect trouble; it is usually just a case of something that just needs to be fixed, which people will get round to doing. If you notice anything, you can do it yourself or let another editor know. ItsZippy 21:32, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
See, now my view is that it'd be good to have a policy along the lines of "If you're going to create a redirect, then you need to ensure that it's reasonably easy for those who find themselves redirected to understand why. Yes, of course, doing it myself is in the nature of Misplaced Pages; what exasperates me is those disorienting redirects I encounter when I'd been trying to use Misplaced Pages as a reference from which to learn something. In those cases—on those subjects—I'm too inexpert to fix it myself. So is there any better way to "let another editor know" than to plant a grouse on the talk page?—PaulTanenbaum (talk) 21:43, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Check out, for instance, WP:Redirect's citation of the principle of least astonishment. Maybe that's about the best I can hope for.—PaulTanenbaum (talk) 22:03, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
I think that WP:REDIRECT is pretty comprehensive in terms of policy. I do understand your position with articles that you are unsure about, though - of course, not everyone has sufficient knowledge to accurately fix every redirect. I think that this could be better done on a case by case basis. Any centralised place (a noticeboard, for example) would have the same problems: the regulars at the noticeboard would not necessarily have the right expertise. Instead, I would suggest that editors leave a note on the talk page of the redirect's target, asking for someone to make the link clearer or, failing that, to ask people at the most relevant WikiProject. That way, those who are most likely to know how best to fix the problem will be the ones who see it. ItsZippy 19:37, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Civility, Editor Retention, Hostility, and Burnout-- summed up

  • Some people think Misplaced Pages is all the same team. A newbie passes the ball towards the goal and counts on more experienced teammates to keep it going.
  • A minority see Misplaced Pages is as a battleground of two teams-- Visitors vs the Home Team. They don't want to help "keep the ball going", they want to "spike the ball back towards the opponents".

This is an unending source of frustration for all parties and we all know it. "Anyone Can Edit" is a mockery right now. We need ideas. --HectorMoffet (talk) 07:59, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

There are more sources of frustration on Misplaced Pages than the two you describe. I'll give a couple of other perspectives: Some newbies are generators of mass quantities of rubbish and need to be, well, redirected (or retired). Some experienced editors are tired of plebish or ignorant edits constantly being made to articles that have undergone months or years of intensive development.
It all depends on your perspective. I think it's important to maintain a good balance here. Regards, RJH (talk) 20:53, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
What I see as a major problem is the increase in the deliberate and pervasive addition of semi-marketing material to articles. There is no doubt that there are large numbers of people doing that, both as organized PR efforts by marketing firms, and as personal promotions by people who have written a book and plug it for ever, authors who have published some obscure algorithms, then edit Wikipages to position their own work as a highly respected item, etc. If nothing is done on that front, we will get content that has been so pervasively mixed with self-promotion that there will be no recovery from it, for there are not enough editors with "knowledge of the field" to defend content. So while the damage done by the inexperienced newbie may be easy to detect and fix, the longer term issue of technical pages having content that is getting mixed with self-promotion does not even seem addressed anywhere. Has it been addressed? History2007 (talk) 13:18, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit summary suggestion

A simple suggestion: in the text above the "Edit summary" box, the addition of a friendly reminder would be appreciated:

Please be civil.

Regards, RJH (talk) 20:42, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I do like the idea; I wonder how effective it really would be, though. Perhaps it would, I'm not sure, but I get the feeling that people will not be swayed to change an uncivil post just be reading that. Still, I wouldn't object to it; I'm all for civility. ItsZippy 20:57, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
I'd support that. I too doubt its effectiveness, but it shouldn't do any harm. It's likely to be ignored for the most part, but if even a handful of summaries are more civil because of it, it's worth it. - Jorgath (talk) 21:42, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
I couldn't support this, just because the Edit summary box is already preceded by a bunch of text (Content that violates any copyrights will be deleted. Encyclopedic content must be verifiable. By clicking the "Save Page" button, you agree to the Terms of Use, and you irrevocably agree to release your contribution under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL. You agree that a hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative Commons license.) Adding more text will make it less likely that they will read any of the text, and a reminder to be nice is not going to have any effect on people leaving angry comments in the heat of the moment (or trolling). Dcoetzee 22:49, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
As Dcoetzee says, nobody reads that stuff anyway. Malleus Fatuorum 21:39, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
And some users just use custom css to hide the text above the edit summary box altogether. I doubt it would have any affect on uncivil comments. Alpha_Quadrant (talk) 22:00, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Why that particular policy? It could also say "Please keep a neutral point of view" or one of the countless other "rules" that one should be mindful of when editing. If it were up to me it would say "don't be a dick" but I know that would never fly :) --Ron Ritzman (talk) 22:08, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, because it's directed specifically at the edit message, rather than at the edit content. Regards, RJH (talk) 03:02, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Things like this tend to suggest the opposite to me. But then again I've always felt that peace treaties and friendship alliances were undeclared declarations of war. Why would one do it if one were really a friend? Dmcq (talk) 00:29, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Wikiheresy

I have translated an essay from Lithuanian Misplaced Pages (translation is Misplaced Pages:Wikiheresy)... Would anyone, by any chance, have some suggestions on how to improve it, or criticism..? It does seem to have some support in Lithuanian Misplaced Pages, perhaps in some way it would be useful here too (at least it is my pretext for writing about it here)..? --Martynas Patasius (talk) 20:52, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages needs more of what you label as Wiki heretics, not less. As George Bernard Shaw once said, "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." Malleus Fatuorum 21:38, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
That is definitely a criticism, but, unfortunately, it looks a little too similar to something answered in the essay's section "Groupthink"...
Still, it seems to be fitting that Shaw is discussed in Chesterton's book that is called "Heretics" (s:Heretics/4)... I guess this part might be worth citing: "Having come to doubt whether humanity can be combined with progress, most people, easily pleased, would have elected to abandon progress and remain with humanity. Mr. Shaw, not being easily pleased, decides to throw over humanity with all its limitations and go in for progress for its own sake."... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 00:00, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Looks nothing like it all. Malleus Fatuorum 01:07, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
I find the use of the term heretic in this context abhorrent. Even with the objectionable message of the essay overall I find that applying the heretic label to the phenomenon described is a misnomer, at best. Heretics are doctrinaire dissidents, not riotous seditionists, basically a mere subdivision of the vandal typology, also a much used and abused meme in the Wikimedia community. But apart from the misapplied heretic label I find the essay stupefying and in spirit encouraging quelching of principled critical discourse although on the face of it only clearly disruptive behavior is targeted directly by the author.
I also resolutely condemn the initiative to establish a practice of asserting group pressure to ostracize editors that are considered less than "team players". __meco (talk) 10:06, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
"Heretics are doctrinaire dissidents, not riotous seditionists, basically a mere subdivision of the vandal typology"? Sure. Is the essay so unclear that it is possible to read it and think that it describes some type of vandals and not the type of users who sincerely wish the best to Misplaced Pages? In that sense the essay was meant to be somewhat similar to Misplaced Pages:Competence is required... And if it is so easy to misunderstand, perhaps it's a good thing that I wrote here - maybe Lithuanian version can also be misunderstood... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 00:24, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Wikiheresy? Wikitics? Well, contorting to think positive at least it stops short of an Auto da fé. But then again, no...! —MistyMorn (talk) 01:00, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Disclaimer: no offence intended. —MistyMorn (talk) 01:08, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, among other reasons, I did choose such name for the essay to encourage such jokes... I wonder if anyone will think of a way to mention Warhammer 40,000 here... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 14:27, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from but I don't know... Might it be unnecessarily divisive? ItsZippy 20:42, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, I feel the doctrinaire perception of WP to which many, whether consciously or not, probably subscribe is more a hindrance than a help at a community level (inevitably, think groupthink...). Imo, pillars and policies etc are better perceived as aids and tools rather than doctrine or writ. My 2c —MistyMorn (talk) 21:30, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. I guess it means that, in your opinion, groupthink hasn't been addressed satisfactorily in the essay..? Good, but could you be a little more specific..?
Also, concerning "pillars and policies etc are better perceived as aids and tools rather than doctrine or writ"... That sure is completely true for many of them, yet there are some principles, which are more important... Not exactly in the sense that those policies are "true" or "best", but in the sense that if we change them, we will get a completely different project. Not necessarily worse, but definitely completely different. For example, if we change WP:NPOV, we can get, let's say, Conservapedia. Or if we change "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia." we can get Wikibooks or Wikinews. And we change the policies concerning the language, we can get Lithuanian, Russian or German Misplaced Pages. Now, it is rather pointless to try to change Misplaced Pages into a completely different project, however good that project might be. Thus any user must eventually either adapt to work in Misplaced Pages (accept its main policies etc.), or go away and look for another project. And if it just so happens that the user simply cannot make a decision (although it doesn't happen often), then, perhaps, the community should make it for him? And maybe in some cases we should actually say so..? --Martynas Patasius (talk) 00:11, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
Agree totally with Meco. This kind of page makes Misplaced Pages look like a bloody cult. the wub "?!" 16:51, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Using dogmatic religious terms like that in an essay to describe editors on Misplaced Pages seems like a very bad idea to me. Something that I fear would only serve to encourage some to engage in battleground behaviour. --Saddhiyama (talk) 00:48, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, certainly besides being a hobby and an encyclopedia we're a bloody cult with fanatical insistance on dogma and disdain for Conservapedia, Citizendium, Wikihow and any other deviationists that may arise. At least, I am and if politeness, tolerance, NPOV, and working and playing well with others were not among our major dogmatic doctrines we would be much worse off. Jim.henderson (talk) 01:28, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
As long as these fundamental policies (copyvio, notability, neutrality, etc) are not violated or questioned, I think it is better to allow and encourage people to speak that do they think. The good member of the community can also yield to consensus or result of vote still openly saying he disagrees and stays not convinced. I think there is no need for additional rules or policies to force accepting the views of majority. Audriusa (talk) 09:10, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

And contributors who are happy to feel part of an open community encyclopaedia project, freely abide by NPOV and other principles and policies, but maybe loathe dogma and want no part in anything doctrinal or any sort of church? —MistyMorn (talk) 09:59, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, I guess it is safe to say that the word "wikiheresy", er, does not have a universal approval... So, could there be a different way to name this "phenomenon", when some contributor openly rejects the main policies of Misplaced Pages (let's say, NPOV)? After all, the problem in such case is different from, let's say, "normal" POV pushing, when the contributor "pays lip service" to NPOV, so, it should probably be approached somewhat differently and perhaps also named differently..? --Martynas Patasius (talk) 20:07, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
Please mind also Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules - not only talks but probably even some actions are allowed if the heretic is sincerely sure this will improve Misplaced Pages. We cannot have an essay that directly contradicts the English Misplaced Pages policy. Audriusa (talk) 11:52, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I know WP:IAR. After all, I did write its Lithuanian version (). And you should know that, for you did argue against one part of it ()...
And, of course, there is a difference between thinking that some policy doesn't apply in some specific case and rejecting it outright (see essay Misplaced Pages:Exceptions should leave the rule intact for some views about that)...
On an unrelated note I'd like to repeat the "new" question: if "wikiheresy" is not a suitable name, what would be a more suitable one? --Martynas Patasius (talk) 21:31, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Just a note... Most people on Misplaced Pages agree to the general policies and guidelines - are not 'heretical', so to speak. To these people, the essay doesn't do a great deal: they know that they fall inside the norm and have probably come across people who think differently. There are also a few people - the 'heretics' - who do disagree with some fundamental policies and guidelines. These people are a problem, but reading an essay which calls them heretics (or being singled out at all) will probably not be helpful - they are the ones who will get offended at this. So I'm not quite sure what the purpose of the essay is; I can only see the potential for divisiveness, I'm afraid. ItsZippy 21:43, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, it was meant to say that if discussion with such user ends up with him leaving Misplaced Pages, it's still a relatively good result (not as good as him understanding the policies and accepting them, but good nonetheless). For example, there was one discussion on one talk page (, later ), in which simply pointing out to the user, that it is pointless to edit Misplaced Pages while rejecting its main policies, did seem to work (after a couple of tries). And that is exactly the approach this essay was meant to recommend... Although it doesn't look like I did a very good job... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 01:04, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

TFA to become TFAs

There seems a substantial backlog of FAs waiting to be listed on TFA. What if two were listed each day, alternating odd-and-even hours? Josh Parris 03:09, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Why? What backlog? Malleus Fatuorum 03:12, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
I randomly suspect he is referring to Category:Featured articles that have not appeared on the main page. MBisanz 03:29, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
That's not a backlog, it's simply a list of articles that haven't been featured on the main page. Malleus Fatuorum 03:47, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Josh's statement appears predicated on the assumptions that the current rate of FA creation is greater than one/day, that all FAs should be featured on the main page, and that the rate of FA creation will not decline to one/day. Under those assumptions, there is backlog in that mathematically, some articles that should appear on the main page as TFA, never will. MBisanz 04:23, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Everything in one; wasn't aware of the cat, but that's four years supply in case FA writing dries up. Our best work, not poking anyone in the eye. Josh Parris 13:16, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
There's a tension between FA's two traditional roles as "the top rung of the quality ladder" and "an article to be featured on the front page" - the general practice seems to be to say that FA status is primarily the former, and that it does not guarantee (or demand) the second part - so there is a large pool of eligible articles for the daily slot, but not a backlog as such. A subtle distinction...
You might be interested to see Misplaced Pages:Featured article statistics; since October 2010, 75% of months have had a net increase of less than the magic one FA per day, and through 2011, we had a net gain of only 308 FAs. (In practice, many demoted FAs have already appeared on the main page and so this doesn't directly translate to a change in backlog, but it's indicative.) Shimgray | talk | 15:30, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Some of the principle authors of FAs have expressed a desire that their work not appear on Main Page, due to the impact it can have on the article. It's not a view I share, but I do understand it. As does Raul, as I believe he's said he won't schedule such articles. I'm not sure how much this reduces the "backlog". --Dweller (talk) 14:12, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

That's... odd. Understandable, but odd. Just close your eyes for a day, let someone else fight off the vandals, then review the good-faith additions once the crowd of visitors has died away.
I learned of the 975 page backlog from Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2008-08-18/Dispatches. 4.5 years later it's at 1320.
We've got 3m articles. If they all get to featured status, even if there are no new articles... need I say more? This is a pressing problem, action must be taken. If necessary, I will take this to Jimbo. We need more FAs on the front page, FAs such as Doug Ring with the Australian cricket team in England in 1948 (Doug scored 9 runs in his one Test match appearance), Meteorological history of Hurricane Gordon (1994) (Gordon never made landfall as a hurricane) and Interstate 80 Business (West Wendover, Nevada–Wendover, Utah), a 2.26 mile long road that had a light bulb installed after they built it. Think of the children! Josh Parris 15:16, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
The level of detail in that last article makes me want to cry. MBisanz 16:52, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Pressing problem? We need more FAs on the front page?
These are just opinions. They happen to be opinions that I don't share. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:47, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Multi-page rollback tool

I am seeing a growing number of spammers on technical pages. And it is just logical, it costs nothing for them to spam, and appealing to their sense of civic duty does not go very far. Examples just today were this and this on just one of the pages I watch. I try to revert what I can, but there too many of them out there, many of their spam edits still persist and will just get mixed with valid content. There are just not enough experienced editors to revert these on the more technical pages one by one, and Misplaced Pages is gradually turning into a version of Craigslist. I think once an account has been identified as a WP:SPA spammer, there should be a facility to roll back its edits in the past 3, 5 or 10 days just by pressing one button. History2007 (talk) 05:26, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

See User:John254/mass rollback.js. Goodvac (talk) 06:02, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
Not a bad idea in fact. I can take that and make my own I guess. And is it certain that it does not run against WP:3RR, I think it does not. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 09:11, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Guidelines for Listing Endorsements for Government Office

I would like to get a discussion going on the subject laid out below. I've tried at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Elections_and_Referendums, but there doesn't seem to be much traffic there currently.


Misplaced Pages articles describing election campaigns could use some general guidelines for deciding which political endorsements are appropriate for inclusion in the articles.


First, there is the issue of what constitutes a political endorsement.

There are some statements that nearly everyone, if not everyone, would accept as clear endorsements. An example would be when the editorial board of a newspaper publishes an article shortly before an election stating that of the candidates seeking office, the board prefers Candidate X and urges readers to vote for Candidate X; or when a retiring elected official holds a press conference together with his chosen successor and urges voters to cast their votes for that person.

There are many other situations in which it is not so clear that a formal endorsement is being made. These are the sorts of cases that can be problematic for WP editors. Current guidelines do not adequately address these situations.

  • Is casually saying "I agree with a lot of what Candidate X says" an endorsement for office?
  • Is it an endorsement if the person only makes the statement in question with reluctance (for example, during an interview that is not primarily about the interviewed subject's opinion of the candidates and in which the interviewer must ask repeatedly to extricate that specific information)?
  • Is saying "I support Candidate X" while simultaneously saying "I support Candidate Y" and "I support Candidate Z" — all of whom are competing for the same seat — an endorsement suitable for inclusion among the endorsements listed in a WP article about a campaign? Or should exclusivity be a requirement for inclusion?


Second, there is the issue of whether a person who has some formal connection to the campaign (eg, someone who is described as a "senior adviser" to the campaign) should be listed among individuals making an endorsement for a candidate — or whether the connection is exclusionary due to the conflict of interest. (see, for example, http://www.ronpaul2012.com/2011/08/24/ron-paul-campaign-welcomes-constitutional-law-heavyweight-bruce-fein-as-senior-advisor/, which is cited at Ron_Paul_presidential_campaign,_2012#cite_ref-BruceFein_203-0) And what are the boundaries, if any, for deciding to exclude an endorser on the basis of being connected to the campaign? Would major financial contributors be acceptable for inclusion, or should they be excluded? Or will it vary case by case?


Third, what are the guidelines for deciding whether a particular endorsement is noteworthy enough (or whether the endorser is notable enough) for inclusion? For example, in the United States, the endorsement that a local schoolboard member or city council member makes for a candidate seeking to be the nation's president would not seem to be noteworthy enough for inclusion in a WP article, even though local newspapers might report on the endorsement. (and yet see, for example, "Frederick County Board of Education Student Membar Neha Kapoor," "Kent County Commissioner William Pickrum," "Bardstown City Council Member Bill Sheckles (D-Nelson)," and "Hamtramck City Councilmember Catrina Stackpoole" all listed at List_of_Barack_Obama_presidential_campaign_endorsements_from_state,_local_and_territory_officials)


Fourth, what should the convention be for handling endorsements made by individuals or groups with whom the candidate or party does not wish to be associated?


Fifth, it may be helpful to spell out what specific rules apply to choosing citations for endorsements, given that they often are made nowadays on blogs, social media sites (eg Facebook), or personal websites. WP:SELFPUB requires that the material involved does not involve claims about a third party, yet political endorsements almost always involve claims about third parties (usually the preferred candidate, and often the rival candidates). For a couple of examples see the citations for Barbara Ehrenreich's and Garrison Keillor's endorsements at List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008. And is it sufficient for the WP citation to be to the name of an endorser that is included in a list on a candidate's campaign website?Dezastru (talk) 21:54, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Unaltered revision histories could have a tiny green mark at the bottom

I heard that a high privilege Misplaced Pages admin or crat or something idk, is allowed to change revision histories with consensus. However, possibly in super rare cases, individuals might want to know if a revision history was changed, so adding a tiny marker at the bottom of unaltered revision histories saying "this revision history was never altered" could potentially be useful. Why not? Just a thought. 173.180.202.22 (talk) 00:18, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

I guess you refer to Misplaced Pages:Oversight. It can remove revisions and certain information about the edits but it cannot add false information about who did what. Oversight should usually be done quickly and non-publicly to protect people or Misplaced Pages. It does not require a discussion first so consensus is not required. I don't see a good reason to mention whether there has been oversight in a page history. It would just cause pointless speculation about what was removed. If you are not an oversighter then you cannot see what was removed, and you shouldn't ask an oversighter about it since the whole point of removal is to make it non-public. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:54, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, true, but as boy will be boys, people who have pointless speculation will have pointless speculation, and this'll at least spare them from having pointless speculation towards page histories that don't even have an oversight alteration, unless they're paranoid n don't believe "this revision history was never altered"... either way how could this hurt? Thanks for the info bout oversight and all, 173.180.202.22 (talk) 02:15, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Realistically, oversighters never use mw:Extension:Oversight anymore. Instead, they use the more flexible suppression feature, and suppressed page revisions appear in gray and struck out. Reaper Eternal (talk) 13:15, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
What exactly do you mean? Sorry I'm not quite the computer expert... 173.180.202.22 (talk) 18:32, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
What I mean is that if an admin or oversighter hides a revision in the page history, you will be able to see the revisions in gray. However, you may not be able to view the contents, edit summary, or username. See this for an example of a large number of hidden revisions. Reaper Eternal (talk) 19:48, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Oh, I see that, thnx, so does deleting revision still exist as an option? If it does there is a reason for it, mayb this identifier to mark unaltered revision histories would still have some use, for its 0 cost. 173.180.202.22 (talk) 21:16, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

is there a place where disillusioned and tired editors can "hang out" - like the waste bucket of WP ?

Procedural note: Thread moved here from Village pump (policy) as more appropriate venue for further discussion. - OhioStandard (talk) 17:14, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

When an editor is totally frustrated, where can he go ?

normally many editors will just leave the project.

can we create a waste bucket, sanatorium, wellness refuge for those editors ?

--POVbrigand (talk) 15:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

They usually just take a short break from editing. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:41, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
If you're feeling that way, the best answer is to blank your watchlist, at least of the troublespots, and go to "random article". As far as possible avoid talkpages, as such feelings usually result from too much time debating. Be a wp:wikignome for a while. It is very theraputic. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:28, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
The question was more a general one, not specifically concerning me. Actually, I am feeling GREAT, you know, I just survived a Arbcom case and more and more RS supportive of the minority view are appearing daily. Really, I can't complain. :-) btw, being a SPA, I don't need to use a watchlist. Thanks for the wikignome hint anyway. --POVbrigand (talk) 16:40, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
The discussion forum website Misplaced Pages Review might be of interest to you. Although it is not intended as a "sanatorium, wellness refuge", it does have many "disillusioned and tired editors" as well as those who are "totally frustrated". Obviously, many views will be expressed accordingly. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 12:21, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice. Don't worry about me, I am an SPA and the article I work on is in fairly good shape, so I'm not frustrated myself. Is there an essay or some other page where this "self-help" information can also be found ? I was thinking that Misplaced Pages should improve the offered help to "almost burned out" editors who would otherwise be lost to the project. Instead of standing by when good editors leave, I have several ideas how WP could "make good use" of valuable editors who are tired of fighting over some silly content. --POVbrigand (talk) 08:07, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


There's considerable merit to the idea of creating a venue of the kind wished for above. So-called "burnout" is a serious problem for both the encyclopedia and more so for those who experience it, as almost all contributors to contentious articles and topic areas periodically do. A venue of the sort being proposed here could help

  1. Retain experienced editors, an emphatic need for the project, given current stats,
  2. Diminish edit-warring and other forms of disruption we see in article-space from very-frustrated veteran editors,
  3. Give editors who need to "vent" an alternative to cluttering up the drama boards or posting to a perceived adversary's talk,
  4. Decrease the frequency of off-topic rants on article talk pages coming from editors who are basically just seeking a little recognition for the validity of their frustration.

Similarly, exasperated editors who feel inclined to leave, but who don't leave because they're somewhat addicted to Misplaced Pages, would have a place they could go to get their editing "fix" more productively. A place, that is, where such previously-productive but still-addicted contributors could both "get their editing fix" and "blow off steam"; a place where doing so wouldn't be met with the indignant, dismissive, or otherwise counterproductive replies that are so typical on other project pages, and that result in the regrettable escalating cycles of aggression we see so often, suspending and disrupting the collaborative process by which we produce our highest-quality work.

If it were implemented well, I think this idea could significantly reduce drama and disruption to project pages, and would simultaneously be of considerable individual value to editors who've reached their frustration tolerance.  – OhioStandard (talk) 20:46, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

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