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    Important notes:

    1. For a request to succeed, either
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    (ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA
    is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.
    2. While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
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    Information for administrators processing requests

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    Plot Spoiler

    No action taken. Please make a new report for any new concerns. T. Canens (talk) 10:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


    Request concerning Plot Spoiler

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    TransporterMan (TALK) 19:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Plot Spoiler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#General_1RR_restriction
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 23:06, 8 October 2011 Initial revert
    2. 00:11, 9 October 2011 Second revert, 65 min later (violation)
    3. 00:32, 9 October 2011 Third revert, 21 min later (violation)
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warned on 6 Apr 2010 by Sandstein (talk · contribs)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Previously blocked on 06:03, 3 June 2010, for violation of this same sanction. Newcomer editor Public awareness (talk · contribs) may also need to be warned under ARBPIA as a result of this exchange.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    • Notice to Plot Spoiler here.
    • Notice to Public awareness here


    Discussion concerning Plot Spoiler

    Statement by Plot Spoiler

    Please note, the ARBPIA notice was added to the page after all these reverts had been made. I did not see the ARBPIA restrictions on the page and honestly forgot about that rule. I think this is a relatively minor content issue between Public Awareness that should be covered on the article's Talk: page. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:21, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

    At the same time, I now recognize that the article is subject to the 1RR policy and I will not be breaching it in the future. I apologize for mistakenly overlooking this policy and I hope Public Awareness will WP:assume good faith so we can actually resolve this minor content dispute. Plot Spoiler (talk) 22:36, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
    I've now self-reverted my last edit from the article for the sake of 1RR. Plot Spoiler (talk) 01:31, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
    Also, why is this an WP:AE issue? Shouldn't have this been pursued at other boards first? My understanding is that AE is the last stop solution. Isn't this an abuse of that process? Plot Spoiler (talk) 23:29, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
    Public awareness has been blocked as a sock of banned user Passionless. Can we close this already? Plot Spoiler (talk) 21:45, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Plot Spoiler

    Comment Public awareness is on three reverts on the article in question, he is removing a quote which is sourced to the New York Times. The Last Angry Man (talk) 19:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

    Look more carefully. nableezy - 19:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
    I just noticed, have amended my statement. The Last Angry Man (talk) 19:43, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
    Stop bickering
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Comment PA's removal of the perfectly sourced and relevant content is borderline vandalism and any reasonable editor, including myself, would have reverted the baseless removal. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:53, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

    That isnt true. Both of these users have blatantly violated the 1 revert rule. Not a single one of the reverts is an allowable exception to that rule. nableezy - 19:55, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
    What isn't true?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
    That the reverted edits are "borderline vandalism". That border is well-defined, and this is not that. nableezy - 20:07, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
    "borderline vandalism" is actually a liberal description of the removal of relevant sourced material with nonsensical/incoherent edit summaries.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:14, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
    So, when an editor removes material with nonsensical summaries such as "better wording" or "dont see any footnotes, but referneces. reference 1 is foreign language article that appears to be an op-ed. unless its attribution is determined and noted, we will keep it simple" that is "borderline vandalism"? Or is it "borderline vandalism" when you, and you alone, makes the determination as to what edit summary is "nonsense"? Again, what vandalism is and is not is well-defined. The reverts listed here do not qualify for a vandalism exception as they were not reverting vandalism. nableezy - 20:21, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
    @brewcrewer, the exception to xRR is for "reverting obvious vandalism" (emphasis in original). If you have to resort to wikilawyering, Public awareness's edits weren't "obvious vandalism". — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 20:35, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
    if any wikilawyering is necessary, its needed to explain this edit summary. "calling him a liar"? What? Who? Where? When?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
    Please don't change the subject. You're trying to excuse a 1RR violation by wikilawyering. — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 20:53, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
    The subject is whether reverting with nonsensical/incoherent edit summaries can be considered vandalism. I have yet to see any policy contradicting said position or any attempt at rationalizing the removals and edit summaries. Attacking me does not count.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:16, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
    Really? You want a policy that contradicts "said position"? How about the policy that actually defines what vandalism is. See where it says Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism. Edit warring over content is not vandalism? nableezy - 18:17, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
    I'm having a difficult time wrapping my head around the idea that the repeated removal of relevant sourced content without an edit summary would be considered vandalism, but once an incoherent/nonsensical edit summary is added it becomes kosher. I guess I'm not that good of a wikilawyer. Regardless, the whole issue appears to be moot because Plot Spoiler has apologized and self-reverted.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

    Sorry, I did at the time of the edit remember something about very limited editing reverts for Israeli articles, but than I saw that Nableezy, AndresHerutJaim (190.17.232.48), and Plot Spoiler all made several quick reverts, so I did make a second revert. The situation was bleak so I went to Fastily (my go to admin) for advice, which I took and went to Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard for help. Vesal did agree with my edit on the talk page for the article, that the current form did "imply that the man is a hypocrite" though he did not agree it was a BLP violation. I'm sure to remember now that I can only revert once for Israeli articles, but, where should I go for help when it is instantly clear the other editor has no interest in listening to get outside help as my section at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard was closed for being "premature"? Public awareness (talk) 20:28, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

    The article's Talk page is a good place to start. — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 20:31, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
    Please tell me how I'm supposed to work constructively with Public awareness (PA) when s/he makes diffs like this: ? What PA is advocating has nothing to do with Misplaced Pages policy, which relies on verifiability instead of truth. The WP:Soapboxing doesn't help either. In short, Public Awarness is holding the page hostage to his/her whim: "If the relevant policies are not changed, and the quote not removed, I will remove it myself next time I stop by." Plot Spoiler (talk) 23:06, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

    Regardless of the outcome of this complaint, I recommend that Public awareness be given the ARBPIA notice. (Plot Spoiler has already received it.) — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 23:26, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

    @Plot Spoiler: 1RR violations under ARBPIA may be brought to WP:ANEW or here. — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 23:30, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
    Equally so? My understanding is that WP:ANEW is the preferred method. WP:AE is just a last resort. And look at all the unnecessary drama it has caused. Plot Spoiler (talk) 23:49, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
    According to the template at WP:ARBPIA#Further remedies, "Reports of editors violating any of these restrictions should be made to either the Arbitration enforcement or Edit warring noticeboards." I agree with you that an AE complaint is more likely to attract drama. I've always made 1RR violation notices at ANEW. — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 02:51, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
    This may explain the confusion. One place or the other should be dealing with this, I dont really care which, but The Man should make up His mind. nableezy - 04:06, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

    Result concerning Plot Spoiler

    From the Vandalism policy page: "Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Misplaced Pages." (emphasis in original). There is no such thing as borderline vandalism. The malicious intent is either there or not. There is a borderline case for vandalism, where the proof is less clear.--Tznkai (talk) 18:20, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

    Atabəy

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Atabəy

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Khodabandeh14 (talk) 21:29, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Atabəy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced

    I am asking for permanent ban of Atabəy (talk · contribs) on Armenia/Iran related topics (and those of Armenia/Iran that overlap with any other topic). Note Atabəy (talk · contribs) had the previous name Atabek (talk · contribs) and has been in two arbcomms, as well as banned permanently from some topic.

    I would like to bring to attention my attempt to get a third party viewpoint on the discussion in Anti-Turkism as well as the discussion page in Anti-Turkism.

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. violates WP:NPA WP:NOTBATTLE on two users, specially this quote attacking a third party mediator (not from the region but an expert on history) who gave his opinion. Atabey states: "@Folantin, instead of pandering to Khodabandeh14's nationalist WP:POV and attempting to insult me". So a 3rd party user is accused of "pandering to my nationalist POV"!
    2. WP:SOAPBOX " I personally don't see how Hitler blaming Jews for troubles of Germany in Mein Kampf is different from Ferdowsi demonizing Turanians/Turks vs Persian pride in Shahnameh. One may look more ancient than the other, and no action would have been taken after Shahnameh, simply because Turks ruled Iran at the time. But it does not change the essence of intolerance" (user is equating a mythological book about mythical battles with Hitler/Mein Kemp which is WP:SOAPBOX] and inflammatory).
    3. violates WP:ATTACK by first bolding the word you and then threatening the user to spend some time in Arbcomm. "So unless, you, Folantin, (not Khodabandeh with another WP:FORUM) can provide a sensible response to opinions of other authors about Shahnameh being essentially anti-Turkish "bible" of Persian nationalism, you should not be using LOLs, Oh Wells, or worse, calling me a fool. Moreover, if Khodabandeh14 uses your one-sided opinions in formulating an opinion in talk pages, then you should probably spend some time as a party to ArbCom case he is currently pursuing to open - that is taking a position in a handful of edit conflicts that he is involved with pushing POV. ". Clear violations of WP:NPA and WP:NOTBATTLE.
    4. "It is impossible to conclude that in a country which takes pride of Shahnameh, and where expression "Tork-e khar" (Turkish donkey) is a popular way of insulting ethnic Turks, there is no Turcophobia whatsoever" WP:SOAP, and WP:NOTBATTLE.
    5. "What is more relevant to this article, is that using the word Turk, Ferdowsi anachronisticially attributed to them an image of alien, an enemy. That is a reason why, compounded with numerous Turkic invasions, a deep sense of anti-Turkism is inherited over centuries in Persian-speaking society" violates WP:SOAP, and WP:NOTBATTLE. (Note the second part: "That is a reason why..." is not in a source and is a WP:SOAPBOX and WP:NOTBATTLE violation which is not any source. Basically that is like accusing all blacks to be anti-white or all whites to be anti-black...also not related to the topic at all).
    6. " Iam just drawing comparison that by essence of anti-Turkish intolerance that Shahnameh has incited (which is obvious in ongoing edit conflicts of Khodabandeh14 on Turkey-Azerbaijan-Iran related topics), it was not far from Mein Kampf inciting anti-Semitism. You may consider my view in context of Goodwin's law, and I will consider your inability to respond in detail to references above to lack of time or interest. Hence, Khodabandeh14 simply cannot use your view as a conclusive third party opinion on Anti-Turkism. " (note the user is stating that I am pursuing "anti-Turkish intolerance" which is again violation of WP:SOAPBOX and WP:BATTLE. He has accused other users priorly of this charge and was one of the reasons he got sanctioned last time. For example his accusation on Kansas Bear with the charge of Turcophobia:)
    7. I'll bring what a third party user said about the POV pushing. Folantin responding to Atabek's belittling WP:BATTLE/WP:SOAPBOX comment that "is Khodabandeh14 your Spokesperson"?. Folantin (responding to Atabek's accusation) wrote: "is Khodabandeh14 your spokesperson?" Khodabandeh has made some sensible, evidence-based comments about Ferdowsi. You have compared Ferdowsi to Hitler.. Who is responsible for your coming across as a fool here, him or you? Now if you don't mind I'm off to add Geoffrey of Monmouth to the Anglophobia article. His stories about King Arthur's resistance to the Anglo-Saxon invasion are dreadfully biased against my ancestors. Let's ignore the fact the English later adopted Arthur as one of their own, it doesn't disguise the innate racism and Celtic supremacism of Merlin and his bigoted ilk. There is no difference between The History of the Kings of Britain and Mein Kampf. -"" .. (the last three sentences are obviously sarcastic because of the bad POV atmosphere created by Atabek. Thus we can completely see that a 3rd neutral party expert sees clear POV pushing. Consequently my attempt to seek 3rd party mediation failed because of the POV pushing and WP:NOTBATTLE/WP:SOAPBOX comments).
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

    Atabəy (talk · contribs) had the previous name Atabek (talk · contribs) and has been in two arbcomms, as well as banned permanently from some topic. . The most recent sanction whose full report can be found here: was in May 2011. The result was: "Atabəy (talk · contribs) is banned from Iranian topics including the Safavids for three months and is under an indefinite restriction to 1RR/week per the result of a thread at WP:AE. Notified. EdJohnston (talk) 04:09, 6 May 2011 (UTC)"] Saygi1 (talk · contribs) is notified: --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 02:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    It would be good if EdJohnston looks at this case as he was the one that enforced the last sanction. He is familiar with my edits, Atabey's edit and Folantin's helpful comment as a 3rd party mediator.

    I tried to make Arbcomm aware that the problem is POV battle pushing which needs a mechanism like Russian wikipedia. If such a mechanism is not enforced, then I will quit. However, before quitting, I should note what made me propose such mechanism is exactly such users. I have wasted archives after archives with such users and it was a great waste of time. English wikipedia is too inept to unfortunately handle problematic articles in one day. So I decided to seek third party dispute resolution. I sought third party comments from two admins who are familiar with the classical history of the area and are known for the objectivity. However, the discussion ended with the admin concluding: "No, I'm done here. By comparing The Shahnameh and Mein Kampf and thus resorting to reductio ad Hitlerum, Atabey has violated Godwin's law and the discussion is therefore over. ". This is a result of WP:SOAPBOX, WP:NPA and WP:NOBATTLE. So even though the Arbcomm case is likely not approved (because they claim that other methods exists which does not), I tried third party dispute resolution, and instead the comments above popped out. I might have made some comments myself outside the discussion, but this has to do with past experience and evidence I sent to arbcomm. All the above are violations of fundamental policies. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 16:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


    As I said the admin EdJohnston is very familiar with this user and the case. So this report was made due to the fact that he emposed the previous section. At one point in his talkpage, he was about to give a permanent ban to Atabek for WP:NOTBATTLE comments and not cooperating with a 3rd party. This time, he did not cooperate at all with two 3rd party admins. He was the one gave the last sanction to Atabek in May (banned for 3 months on all Iran related topics). My record is clean and I have not had any prior AA warnings. I also can answer all the chargers below:

    • Charge 1 of Atabek is baseless as I am trying to get opinions for an Arbcomm on a proposal from users who are experiencing nationalistic bickering and also admins who had to constantly deal with the issue. It is not canvassing for votes, but rather to get feedback on a proposal.
    • Charge 2 is a report to EdJohnston on his page, but EdJohnston as usual would want a formal request. This is all it is. No violation of wikipedia rule.
    • Charge 3 Dbachmman/Folantin actually left the discussion after Atabek's comment not mine. They never made any negative comments about my messages, but they made several on Atabek['s comments.
    • Charge 4 is a copy & paste from an open site. I copied & paste some messages from that open site and by mistake a name popped out. The next message I delete the name (2 minutes later). The message can be deleted for good as it was a copy & paste mistake. I just wanted to demonstrate that there is actual racism going on the off-line wikipedia lists and user should not be preaching to Dbachmann. I believe the user brought the Hitler, Nazis, Mein Kemp, Skinhead and etc. into unrelated discussion due to Dbachmann's Germany ancestory. As far as I know that evidence I sent to Arbcomm was accepted by Arbcomm never took action. As noted in Russian wikipedia such a list was used to ban 30 people. But admins can always delete any message that they properly deem violates any privacy concern as I try to follow that rule to the best of my knowledge (when I deleted a name 2 minutes after). I have had no prior violations.
    • I should note that I am not a party in AA1 or AA2, and only had one violation in my whole editing history which was overtuned quickly. This cannot compare to a user who had multiple AA1/AA2 violations and none of my comments demonstrate WP:BATTLE as I initiated the feedback from Dbachmman and Folantin (who firmly rejected the POV push of the user).
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    (user notified)

    @Tznkai, thanks for the proposal but also I would like to get the feedback of EdJohnston who is familiar with the case. I have no prior topic bans, AA warnings or etc. The user on the other hand was topic banned recently. Admins need to go through the comments carefully. I asked for 3rd party feedback and the third party was attacked by: ""@Folantin, instead of pandering to Khodabandeh14's nationalist WP:POV ". Basically, the admins need to reread the discussion that took place. As I said, EdJohnston is very familiar with this case and he handed out a 3 month ban on Atabek in late May 2011. So I really want to hear his feedback on this issue as well. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 18:53, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

    Just wanted to note that there is more bad accusations here. Atabek claims I reverted him here: which is a bad faith accusation, since he was banned from that article for POV pushing. That is right, he was topic banned from that specific article for POV pushing (see the discussion there where he uses a 1909 popular source to push POV against all evidence). In that page, he pushed "Two sources from 1905 and 1913" while ignoring all modern sources. I think if admins look at that 2008 edits (for he was topic banned from that article) and compare to his modern edits, there is no improvement as it is all about pushing a sort of ethnic agenda. But my edit had nothing to with Atabek, rather I added sources to the article and looked at the talkpage. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 20:14, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

    I would like to recall the previous AE sanction case which I filed against Atabek . What makes the admins think that a 6 month ban is sufficient? I have a clean record and I was not involved in AA1/AA2 topics. I asked for mediation and instead the user brought up hitler, mein kemp and accused the 3rd party neutral user of ""@Folantin, instead of pandering to Khodabandeh14's nationalist WP:POV ". I do really believe sanctions are needed here, and although I could not see any mistakes by myself, I do see huge violations of WP:NPA and WP:NOTBATTLE from Atabek. Specifically, when he gets into a disagreement, he has several time accused users of anti-Turkism or what not. Simply the atmosphere created by the user is not conducive to wikipedia. How many chances do users get? Just note he did not listen a 3rd party mediator here (Gareth) here either: . Just one quote: " I still fail to see why Tigran is pushing Armenian POV, when Abgar had nothing to do with Armenia. Tiridates acceptance of Christianity in Armenia was also a legend, so there is no reason why one legend is more important than the other, while several authors confirm the fact of Abgar VIII's acceptance of Christianity by 201. I am ready to present more references to my edit, than dozens already presented in my version. But the information is already out, and it won't be possible to hide facts by historical fabrications, POV pushing/edit warring this time.". You might ask why would a user be interested in such a rare topic? It is because he does not want Armenia to be known as the first Christian state (something generally agreed upon by scholarship today). This goes back to the third century A.D., and the user simply is fighting now battles about 3rd century A.D. and 10th century A.D. (Shahnama). --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 20:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

    I consider the RfC of Atabek in bad faith as already two neutral users gave their opinion. But I am not going to let the user have a one-sided viewpoint there.--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 00:36, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

    I would also like the sanctions to apply to User:Sayig1 here: --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 00:50, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


    Discussion concerning Atabəy

    Statement by Atabəy

    This frivolous reporting by User:Khodabandeh14 (previously known as User:Nepaheshgar and User:Ali doostzadeh) follows his consecutive WP:CANVASS attempts targeting me:

    1. Attempt to bait several contributors, including myself, into another ArbCom case, which is currently being declined; obviously wasting community resources while not exploring other paths towards consensus. This also includes Khodabandeh14's WP:BATTLE and WP:CANVASS attempt to engage User:MarshallBagramyan - , User:Takabeg - , User:Folantin - , User:EdJohnston - , User:Lezgistxa - , User:Sandstein - , User:Vacio - , User:Kansas Bear - in an ArbCom case against a group of users with which Khodabandeh14 disagrees.
    2. Frivolous reporting to User_talk:EdJohnston, who did not comment on the case.
    3. Massive WP:FORUM staged by Khodabandeh14 at User_talk:Dbachmann, not letting other users to speak for themselves, and acting as their spokesperson. Interested arbitrators can follow this thread on Dbachmann's page, to carefully review the rhetoric of Khodabandeh14 and myself.
    4. WP:HARASSMENT violation attempting to link me to a real-life identity, using some controversial spam site which published someone's private email online.

    At Talk:Anti-Turkism, Talk:Flag of South Azerbaijan and Talk:Azerbaijani people, User:Khodabandeh14 exhibits extremely disruptive WP:BATTLE behavior, refusing to come to any consensus, acting WP:OWN, pushing WP:POV, using WP:PEACOCK wording towards any author he disagrees with, WP:SOAP labeling them as nationalists. Just look at his admission: "I believe the third parties gave a sufficient response. That is why exactly this went to enforcement". This implies that he is using Arbitration Enforcement as a way to intimidate contributor with a threat of sanctions, in order to push his WP:POV in an article.

    Assuming good faith, in an attempt to achieve consensus with him, I made a proposal at Talk:Anti-Turkism. But Khodabandeh14 is clearly dismissing any source that he disagrees with, focusing only on his WP:POV or else, the objective to get me sanctioned.

    In his prior WP:HARASSMENT, few months ago, User:Khodabandeh14 succeeded by having User:EdJohnston temporarily restrict me from editing pages like Safavid dynasty. Despite EdJohnston's promise to lift this restriction on certain conditions that he suggested, after my appeal and my fulfillment of those conditions, the restriction was forgotten and not lifted, and I did not have time then to follow through the case. But it is obvious that instead of working on articles, and emboldened by such support, User:Khodabandeh14 is now targeting contributors.

    I ask AE to remind User:Khodabandeh14 to be more patient and WP:AGF, to constructively participate in talk page discussions, and to leave my identity alone, simply because it is irrelevant to the topics of pages that we edit. I am also expecting AE action in regards to the item 4, which is a severe violation. I mean why is Khodabandeh14 is allowed to go around freely alleging my real-life name? Is this something acceptable in Misplaced Pages? And I am completely disappointed as to why, being actively involved in all WP:AA2 edit conflicts, User:Khodabandeh14 remains free of any arbitration enforcement and is even allowed to harass contributors?!

    Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 21:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

    @Tznkai, completely agree. I am sorry for having to waste my time here, but I wasn't the one who opened this case, so I have no other option but to respond. I already made a good faith proposal, but unfortunately instead of discussing, Khodabandeh14 still wants to pursue other objectives. Atabəy (talk) 00:07, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
    I would like to request adding User:Kurdo777 to the sanctions. Thanks.Atabəy (talk) 02:57, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

    For information of Arbitration Enforcement, at my request at WP:Oversight purged out comments by KHodabandeh14, attempting to link me to a person in violation of WP:HARASSMENT. I kindly ask AE to take actions to prevent repeated violations of the policy by User:Khodabandeh14. The topic disagreements can be resolved on talk pages of the articles, via RfCs, and other currently pursued methods. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 02:54, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

    Regarding the bad faith comments by User:Khoikhoi about myself. Back in January 2008, he endorsed an unfounded allegation that User:Ehud Lesar was a sockpuppet of User:AdilBaguirov, based on claims made up by a group of WP:BATTLE editors. The allegations were found to be untrue. This one ArbCom case, however, demonstrated the issues with neutrality of User:Khoikhoi when it comes to WP:AA2 cases. So, I suggest that before accusing me in bad faith, in traditional support of User:Khodabandeh14, he produces some facts as to what have I violated to be the subject of this current AE report? Atabəy (talk) 23:27, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

    Questions about AE decision

    @Tznkai, and other supporting administrators, your decision below raises the following question:

    • Will there be any action taken about WP:HARASSMENT violation by User:Khodabandeh14 or I should take that to a different board? Is this rule enforced by WP:AE?
    • In May 2011, following my topic ban from Iran-related articles after frivolous report by Khodabandeh14, I was suggested by User:EdJohnston to open an RfC and to follow through with achieving consensus on Talk:Safavid dynasty. I did so, but the ban was not lifted. Can I know the reason?
    • If I am asked to create a Good Article, but at the same time banned from editing articles, how can do so?

    Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 23:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

    FYI, as a last resort, in good faith, I initiated a Request for Comment on Talk:Anti-Turkism regarding the disputed subject. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 23:43, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Atabəy

    Does this read to anyone else as "You-suck!-No-you-suck!"--Tznkai (talk) 23:23, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

    Yes. Put them both on chairs in the corner for time out? KillerChihuahuaAdvice 14:49, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

    Result concerning Atabəy

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    Directed at both Atabəy and User:Khodabandeh14, based primarily on your behavior here, and a brief perusal of your contributions, it seems that your sole activities on Misplaced Pages are getting into ideological editing struggles over what I will loosely call Western Asia/Eastern European nationalism and the bloody history thereof, and then getting into personal fights via our dispute resolution mechanisms. This is the very definition of abusing Misplaced Pages as a battleground. I suppose I could waste all of our times making a more detailed and nuanced assessment and apportion blame in a precise manner, but I do not see benefits outweighing the costs.

    Both Atabəy and User:Khodabandeh14 are:

    • topic banned from all edits in article and article talk space concerning the topic of Eastern European or West Asian nationalism, which includes but is not limited to any nation, ethnicity, people, state, region, person, ideology, entity, work of art, origin of food items, or historical event in Eastern Europe, Northern and Central Asia Division, East Central and South-East Europe Division, Western Asia regions as defined by the United Nations; and
    • are so banned for six months, starting October 16 00:00 UTC; and
    • a ban will be suspended upon proof to either myself, a consensus of administrators on AE or a neutral process such as Good Articles, that you can write in a collaborative manner and produce by improvement, well written and well sourced articles

    If either of you, or anyone else, in your attempts to get the good behavior suspension disrupts previously stable forums, I will move onto blocks. You have until the ban starts to make further comments, or point me at other editors whose behavior also justifies being included in the topic ban as described above. You may also consider an appeal, and as always, my fellow administrators are encouraged to comment as well.--Tznkai (talk) 18:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

    Khodabandeh14, this is not a proposal, its a sanction. I would also welcome EdJohnston's comments. You might want to get his attention quicklike.--Tznkai (talk) 18:59, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
    Atabəy, we are not arbitrators, but administrators. You can always go over our heads to the Arbitration Committee if you wish. Second, your behavior in this enforcement request is an independently sufficient ground to show you are violating editing norms. It is your actions, and choices that I am acting on.--Tznkai (talk) 21:44, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
    Start with and pick an article that doesn't fall within the topic ban.--Tznkai (talk) 23:17, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
    Khodabandeh14, please notify user:Saygi1 and post the notification here.--Tznkai (talk) 01:44, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    • Concur with Tzn; good call. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 19:26, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
    • The sanction on both editors which Tznkai proposed above sounds good to me. EdJohnston (talk) 20:20, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
    • Oppose for now. User:Khodabandeh14 has a clean block log. This is an area where there is a lot of nationalistic editing and those who oppose it are often targeted by nationalists. I'm not convinced that there is suffficient rationale here to treat both editors the same way. I'm not saying I can't be convinced, just that I'm aware that this is a difficult area in which to work and I wish to be assured that we are not banning a basically constructive editor from it and thereby perhaps creating more problems for those trying to maintain an NPOV position in this area. Dougweller (talk) 06:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    • what Dougweller said. Go easy on the topic bans. You can always encourage admins to adopt a zero-tolerance for temporary blocks over disruptive behaviour. Or a 1RR policy or something. For the "well-meaning but agenda-driven hothead" type of editor, it is more than enough to impose a week-long cool-down block every time they get out of line. Strictly speaking I don't see why the arbcom is required for something like this, as it is within the authority of admins. But there you are. This can easily be fixed on the admin level just as long as admins are alerted to the problem and encouraged to issue temporary blocks. Imho the arbcom should limit itself to do just that. --dab (𒁳) 11:47, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    • Just like Dougweller and dab, I'm opposed to treating Khodabandeh14 the same way as Atabəy. I've been one of the most active administrators in this topical area and I've witnessed the behavior of these two editors first-hand over the years. Atabəy has more than earned his topic ban. To be frank, he should had been permanently banned a long time ago, but the admins have been too soft on him, giving him chance after chance that he's burnt. Khodabandeh14 on the other hand, while displaying signs of compulsive and combative behavior, is generally a constructive editor with good research skills, and who helps keep this area of articles NPOV. He may be a hothead sometimes, but anyone else constantly dealing with nationalist trolls like Atabəy who are always engaged in gaming -- is going to be prone to lose control every now and then. As Dab said, a week-long cool-down break in the form of a ban should be more than enough to deal with Khodabandeh14. Atabəy, I am afraid though, is a lost cause. Khoikhoi 16:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
    I've been significantly swamped in meatspace, so have been unable to fully follow up on this. I hope to rectify that within the next 24 hours. In the meantime, I have considered the opposing opinions, and I have found them ultimately unpersuasive. These seem to be appeals to a notion of justice in punishment: equal crime doing equal time. As we have droned on and on, bans are not punishments, but tools for preventing harm. The behavior here justifies the action independently. It is not only outside of our mandate and abilities to Do Justice, a practice best left to philosopher-kings, but ill advised in the AE context, where fine tuning lengths as a sorting function of who is the "worst" encourages even lengthier complaints and game playing behavior. Furthermore, the topic ban has a structural out. If one party is fundamentally a better editor, they will escape the ban much sooner.
    I am generally of the mind that administrators should try to achieve consensus when possible, even with discretionary sanctions. However, I also balance those concerns that the need for relatively swift conclusion, and the implicit err-on-the-side-of-action implied in the broad grant of administrator discretion in discretionary sanction remedies. To that extent, I am logging the sanctions, but leaving this thread open for investigation of other users in related dispute, as well as to independently investigate and entertain arguments that Khodabandeh14 has been inappropriately sanctioned. Please bear in mind that Khodabandeh14 has apparently left Misplaced Pages indefinitely. Perhaps he or she will be back if the topic area is brought to heel.--Tznkai (talk) 06:02, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

    Jonchapple

    Jonchapple is topic banned from articles relating to The Troubles, as well as the Ulster banner and British baronets, broadly construed, for a period of three months. KillerChihuahua 11:39, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Jonchapple

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Domer48'fenian' 08:44, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Jonchapple (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Per Result concerning Jonchapple Terms of probation and Enforcement

    All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period). When in doubt, assume it is related.

    Terms of probation Participants placed on probation are limited to one revert per article per week with respect to the set of articles included in the probation. Any participant may be briefly banned for personal attacks or incivility. Reversion of edits by anonymous IPs do not count as a revert.


    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 18:04, 13 October 2011 First Revert
    2. 19:55, 13 October 2011 Second Revert
    3. 20:46, 13 October 2011 Third Revert

    Additional Violation of Probation since report was filed.

    All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period). When in doubt, assume it is related.

    Terms of probation Participants placed on probation are limited to one revert per article per week with respect to the set of articles included in the probation. Any participant may be briefly banned for personal attacks or incivility. Reversion of edits by anonymous IPs do not count as a revert.

    1. 11:27, 17 October 2011 First Revert adds Flag against WP:MOSFLAG in addition to changing Nationality from Irish to British with sources making no mention of British.
    2. 08:40, 18 October 2011 Second Revert, Per previous again adding flag against WP:MOSFLAG and ref which dose not support addition. Notice the big green race car with big shamrock not to mention the Team Ireland logo's. Editor accepts that they are editing against the terms of their probation by reverting on British Nationality.

    Again:

    1. 06:57, 18 October 2011 First Revert: Again reverting over British Nationality.
    2. 09:49, 18 October 2011 Second Revert: As previous, again Nationality.
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    Prior Notices of 1 RR Violation of Terms of probation notice
    1. Warned on 19:34, 14 August 2011 by KillerChihuahua (talk · contribs)
    2. Warned on 16:24, 14 August 2011 by EdJohnston (talk · contribs) who made them aware of the Terms of probation
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    The editor is well aware of the enforcement and sanctions, and has made it a habit of arguing the point regardless. As the notices placed on their talk page illustrate, this disruption is over a number of articles. The editor is knowingly violating this enforcement. Should addition diff be required I'm more than happy to provide them.
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning Jonchapple

    Statement by Jonchapple

    I am fully aware of the sanctions under which I'm placed, but I haven't broken 1RR on any articles that come under the scope of the Troubles restrictions. If you've got some more diffs that prove I have, please provide them. JonC 08:57, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

    One Night in Hackney, Flags of country subdivisions is not an article related to The Troubles, British nationalism in Ireland, the Ulster Banner or British baronets. It's a gallery of flags used by subdivisions of states from around the world. It's as equally related to Argentinian nationalism, Australian nationalism, Austrian nationalism, Belorussian nationalism, etc. JonC 09:11, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    With respect, KillerChihuahua, I'm not trying to offer up an "I didn't know!" defence, merely stating that the article in question clearly isn't covered by the Troubles restriction. Per Template:Troubles restriction, articles subject to the restriction are defined as: "any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland". Flags of country subdivisions isn't, and as such isn't subject to 1RR. JonC 14:44, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    I can't believe this is even being considered. So, what – anything that mentions Northern Ireland even in passing is now subject to Troubles restrictions? Is Georgie Best? The Titanic?
    Or is it the fact that paramilitary groups identified with the Ulster banner? Is the Flag of Ireland under a hidden 1RR too because it was used by republican groups? Honestly, I don't even know where we're at here. Maybe I'll just have to get into, say, birdwatching instead. Hope there's no birds in Northern Ireland. JonC 16:22, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    I'll only say this one more time: Flags of country subdivisions doesn't fall under the Troubles restrictions. Is anyone actually going to address this? JonC 23:38, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

    If you'd bothered to look at the page history of Adam Carroll, you'd notice the flag and British nationality have always been there as he's a racing driver that races with a British licence. From WP:MOSFLAG: "Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country, government, or nationality - such as military units, government officials, or national sports teams." (emphasis mine). This is the convention for racing drivers on Misplaced Pages, as the infobox is their racing infobox that displays their sporting information, including the country that they represent. I have now provided two sources from the two racing leagues Carroll has raced in since 2010 that clearly show he races as a Briton. You shouldn't edit articles related to subjects you clearly know nothing about (and have only found by trawling through my edit history; not for the first time). JonC 12:52, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

    In response to One Ton Depot's assertion that he finds it "hard to reconcile with his comment a few months ago in the Nationality RFC that 'in agreement that the Anglo-Irish disambiguator is neccessary here'", I'd just like to make it clear that that particular discussion was for what should appear in the lead. I don't believe there was any discussion about what nationality should be in the infobox. Thanks. JonC 11:17, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Jonchapple

    Considering the probation section reads "To address the extensive edit-warring that has taken place on articles relating to The Troubles, as well as the Ulster banner and British baronets, any user who hereafter engages in edit-warring or disruptive editing on these or related articles" (emphasis added) and Jonchapple is indeed edit warring regarding the Ulster Banner, his defence is incorrect, particularly as he is "fully aware of the sanctions under which I'm placed". 2 lines of K303 09:03, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

    If an article has got the Ulster Banner in and you're edit warring over it, it's a related article. If an article has got the Ulster Banner in and you're edit warring over some other part of it, it's not a related article. It's not rocket science... 2 lines of K303 09:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    more troubles
    See Ernest Shackleton and Talk:Ernest Shackleton#redux.
    Jonchapple has been systematically edit-warring over the terms Anglo-Irish and British on this article since February. There's a large RFC on the very issue just above the redux link: Talk:Ernest Shackleton#Nationality. Jonchapple even agreed that "Anglo-Irish is good". For reference:
    ; Anglo-Irish to British, with link changes, too. ; removes Irish-born. ; adds Anglo- resulting in Anglo-Irish. Followed immediately by: ; Nationality to British. ; Nationality to British, again. ; Nationality to British, again, removing a source re Anglo-Irish (BBC, ironically). ; Nationality to British, yet again, and yet again removing the BBC link. In this edit summary, it is asserted that Anglo-Irish was just added five days ago (which would be the edit by me, where I linked the BBC page): ; Anglo-Irish sourced to BBC.
    ; Jonchapple agrees with a request for comment that "Anglo-Irish is good. :)"
     — One Ton Depot (talk) 03:04, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
    Since posting, here, I've read this whole thread and the older one (and see that two of the reverts I mentioned were previously given). Jonchapple has removed my post to his talk page about this and posted on mine protesting that he believes 'British' was the stable version. I find this hard to reconcile with his comment a few months ago in the Nationality RFC that "in agreement that the Anglo-Irish disambiguator is neccessary here." Say one thing and do another, I guess.
    He's been at this article for 8 months, and is here for more of the same, on others. Someone clarify just why he should ever edit regarding anything British/Irish again? It's disruptive, and takes time that would be better spent improving articles.
    One Ton Depot (talk) 11:01, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

    Result concerning Jonchapple

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    • He's already on probation, the only option left is a block. I suggest a one week block, and if he comes back and does it again, block for increasing periods of time until he either learns or is indef'd. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but we have had enough of this "I didn't know!" defense from this editor, and I am disinclined to suspend disbelief enough to believe this is sincere this time. I almost simply blocked and then closed this, but would appreciate other admins offering their views before taking this step. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 14:30, 14 October 2011 (UTC) Support 3 month topic ban per updated options, see below. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 15:56, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    • Jonchapple was here at AE as recently as September 24, which is later than the August appearance which led to his Troubles probation. See the closure of that AE. When closing, I stated "I'm closing this with no action. However any new appearances of Jonchapple here at AE in the next three months, as either the source or the target of complaints, could cause the issue to be revisited." The reason for the AE complaint was this comment by Jon in his edit summary, referring to Domer48 as 'Dumbo48': "Seeing as Dumbo48 won't play nice, let's remove the republican links from this article". During the discussion at that AE, participants (including one arbitrator) stated that WP:TROUBLES could be interpreted nowadays as allowing bans from the area of conflict. Since that AE was about to close with a 3-month topic ban, I propose that we now go ahead and issue the topic ban that was previously considered. The mention of the Ulster banner in the Troubles arbcom case surely allows banner-related edits to fall under Troubles enforcement. EdJohnston (talk) 15:53, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
      I had forgotten that, thank you for reminding me. I support a 3-month topic ban for this editor. So glad we're not painted into the "block or nothing" corner. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 15:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
      Does WP:TROUBLES give us the authority to hand out a topic ban? --Mkativerata (talk) 19:27, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    See the discussion in the Result section of the last AE about Jonchapple for the logic of giving out topic bans under TROUBLES. EdJohnston (talk) 19:31, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    Thank you. That is fine with me. Perhaps we should ask Arbcom for a clarification or amendment to make it official. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:34, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    It might be nice to have a note, I forgot this myself, and I was part of the discussion - but do we need to pester Arbcom with that? Ask a clerk, maybe? Or Coren, since he was the one who commented on the earlier case? KillerChihuahua 19:42, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    Definitely wouldn't hurt to have this clearly on the record - and I am still of the opinion that the Troubles remedy provisions should be revamped. T. Canens (talk) 05:25, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
    Speaking as one of the original administrators in this area (which is a reason I have recused myself as an arbitrator), I am in the firm opinion that from practice as well as theory that a topic ban is within the bounds of the Troubles discretionary sanctions, and while recused, issue a statement supporting this in any such clarification request. I am not going to speak on the APPROPRIATENESS of the sanction (administrative recusal), just the validity of the sanction itself). SirFozzie (talk) 20:27, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
    So are we in agreement on the sanction as proposed by EdJohnston? KillerChihuahua 22:42, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
    3 months is probably lenient considering the last thread, but it's fine with me. T. Canens (talk) 09:33, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
    3 months, then, and if he's back before the three months is up we'll look at other measures. KillerChihuahua 11:29, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

    Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Ludwigs2

    Appeal unsuccessful. T. Canens (talk) 13:51, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    Appealing user
    Ludwigs2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Ludwigs2 17:19, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    Sanction being appealed
    Topic ban from Astrology article, imposed at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Request_concerning_Ludwigs2
    Administrator imposing the sanction
    KillerChihuahua (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
    Notification of that administrator
    notice of appeal

    Statement by Ludwigs2

    This topic ban was improper for the following reasons:

    1. It failed to acknowledge or consider mitigating factors
    2. It failed to acknowledge or consider a perfectly feasible non-sanction solution
    3. It was (apparently) punitive rather than corrective
    4. It effectively imposes a dual standard for sanctionable behavior
    Point 1 - Failure over mitigating factors
    The sanction was based on the five or six unfortunate comments that were entered into the case. It failed to consider 50+ edits I made to the same talk page which were calm, cool, reasonable, productive, and in no way disruptive. On request, I will provide diffs of all such comments. Narrowly focussing on a small subset of behavior can make anyone look like a monster, and while I do not try to justify my comments, taking them out of context and placing them under a magnifying glass is an improper way to evaluate my behavior. My behavior on the page was largely good, and was improving as time went on, and that was disregarded as a factor.
    Point 2 - Failure over non-sanctioning resolution
    I offered a solution to the problem which effectively resolved all of the concerns raised: promising to refrain from 'poisoning the well' type statements.. I included two caveats: that I be allowed to discuss skepticism as a cultural group (based on the common practice on fringe articles to discuss fringe advocates as insular groups), and that I be allowed the opportunity to refactor if I erred (this to avoid being blocked on the spot for a minor slip). KillerChihuahua did not acknowledge this in the AE discussion, and when I approached her on her talk page after her response was a gross misrepresentation of my offer, asserting that I had not pledged to de better (when in fact I specifically had) and that I was looking for a loophole to attack other editors. . The latter was probably my mistake - I worded the offer as "be allowed to refer to skeptical editors as a cultural group" instead of be allowed to refer to skepticism as a cultural group" - but I would hope that would be obvious from the context. See more on the more troubling aspect of this issue in point 4 below.
    Point 3 - Punitive nature
    Policy for sanctions on Misplaced Pages asserts (I am using the language from wp:Blocking policy, which I assume is universal) that sanctions are intended to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages, not to punish users. However, it is clear from KillerChihuahua's language that she is not aiming to alter my behavior, but rather to adjust my attitude - "I suggest a month long break from all Astrology articles, to give Ludwigs time to think this over and hopefully come back with a more productive attitude", "I also do not see any serious attempt to be self-critical or improve. Leaning towards making the topic ban 6 months, not 1." Whatever one may think of my 'attitude' on project, it is not KillerChihuahua's or the Project's purpose to change it or improve me as a person. The goal of sanctions is to prevent disruptive behavior. Since (per the previous points), the behavior being questioned was largely gone and I had offered a resolution that would effectively end it, this sanction can only be perceived as a punitive measure.
    Point 4 - Dual standard of sanctionable behavior
    KillerChihuahua's sanction effectively creates a dual-standard of behavior on fringe articles. Editors on fringe articles have a long history of referring to people who believe in fringe topics as specific and identifiable minority groups, despite the fact that on a topic like astrology from a quarter to a half of the general population has some belief in the topic. Sometimes this is done abusively, as with the all-to-frequent dismissive comments about 'fringe advocates', but generally it is a valid move important to maintaining NPOV and proper perspective on the article. KillerChihuahua's objection to my offer focuses entirely on the fact that my request to do the same with skepticism is morally wrong . However, it is precisely as necessary for neutrality to keep a clear vision of skepticism as a cultural perspective as it is to keep a clear view of fringe views. It would be impossible for me to bring every case of fringe-group labeling to AE - there is a long-standing acceptance of that practice in administrative pages which would make any such case unsuccessful, and the sheer volume of cases would swamp AE (I could easily produce ten or twenty over the course of a standard week) - so a dual standard is created in which one group perspective is subject to unilateral administrative sanctions. The administrative process on Misplaced Pages should not be complicit in enforcing violations of NPOV.

    Proposed resolution to the Appeal

    I would like the topic ban lifted under the same conditions (slightly modified, for reasons given above) that I offered on the AE page:

    • That I refrain from 'poisoning the well' type commentary.
    • That I be allowed to refer to skepticism as an insular perspective (in a non-poisoning-the-well manner), consistent with the standard practice of referring to fringe groups as insular perspectives.
    • That I be allowed to refactor if I make an error (within reasonable constraints, obviously), so that I am not constantly in danger of being sanctioned for any reason at any moment.

    Modifications are, of course, welcome if further guarantees are necessary on the project's side: my main concern is relief from punitive sanctions and some guarantee on my side that this ruling does not become an excuse to impose future sanctions vindictively.

    This is going to be my behavior regardless. Whether or not this sanction is lifted, I will be entering discussions on articles where I will run against this strong cultural bias, so it is obvious that I will need to be deeply circumspect in my actions regardless. We might as well begin on the astrology page now rather than later; the ban serves no particular purpose. --Ludwigs2 17:19, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

    quick response to KC, before I'm off for the day

    1. Considering violations without giving any credit to context or improvements is not appropriate.
    2. As I clearly stated, (1) it is a long-standing practice to lump groups together on fringe pages, and (2) the use of the term 'editors' was an unfortunate typo. I am not making a judgment about the wisdom of that kind of grouping (I can, if you like). I'm simply stating that the practice cannot be sanctionable for one side only. Doing so means you are using your power as an administrator to assert that a particular viewpoint is true, and that's unconscionable.
    3. You refuse to accept it when I say I will stop, you refuse to look at all of the positive contributions I made to the page, and then you turn around and tell my I need to reconsider my approach? what approach is it precisely that you want me to reconsider, if not to have better behavior and make positive contributions? It is increasingly clear here that you are trying to punish me for some some attitude you dislike rather than deal with my occasional bad behavior. that does not rise to the level of unconscionable, but it is unfortunate.
    4. the editor who filed the report (Hypocrite) refers to 'duped true believers'; there are numerous comments on the talk page about 'advocates' and 'apologists' for fringe topics. there are even such comments by participants in the AE thread itself. Your comment that I was the only editor in the report can only mean that you are intentionally ignoring similar behavior by others in order to make a case for a stronger sanction, and that - again - speaks to a punitive mindset.

    KC, you are simply not being reasonable. --Ludwigs2 18:29, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

    Response to T, Canens
    I am noting for the record that this is the second time I have received an excessive and unjustified sanction under Arbitration Enforcement while working on a fringe topic. People can say what they want about my flaws (and undoubtably will; it seems that personal attacks are always allowable when directed at me) and I never deny it, but a system where punishment is doled out because someone 'feels' like an 'attitude' needs adjusting is just plain horrific. You ask me to examine my flaws, but you (collectively) are unwilling to examine your own. If you want to pursue an utterly pointless sanction against me I can't stop you (short of raising the issue with ArbCom itself, I guess, and I doubt it's worth that), but I cannot respect the system or the people who use it in this emotionally haphazard way. --Ludwigs2 14:28, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
    Clarification to KC
    The principle I am concerned with here is the intrinsic bias that I (and many other editors I know) experience when working on fringe topics on wikipedia. It's a function of not toeing to the skepticism line: Anyone who does not agree that fringe topics are intrinsically contemptible is labeled as an advocate and monitored by numerous editors who seek out problematic behavior to use in administrative actions. We are required to have far better behavior than other editors (because everything we do is examined with a fine-toothed comb), are punished more severely for smaller infractions (because people exaggerate the problems hyperbolically), and are generally harassed by other editors/administrators with impunity. I'm not suggesting that you intentionally gave me a harsher punishment than I deserved because I did not toe the skepticism line; I'm telling you that the deck was stacked against me the instant I stepped onto the astrology page and tried to create a neutral tone in the article. This would never have happened if I were trying to add damning information to the article, even of my behavior were far worse than it was (which I know because I've been on the receiving end of far worse behavior, and seen the perpetrator excused for it).

    I keep hoping that administrators will see the light and do something to redress this bias, but it's becoming increasingly clear that that will not happen. Sooner or later, I'm afraid, we are going to have to reopen the pseudoscience arbitration decision and fix it by ArbCom fiat - it will not get fixed otherwise. In the meantime, I'll be on my best behavior. That will not make any difference, mind you; I will certainly be back here in a few months because someone somewhere will will find some excuse to impose a sanction on me. The only real power I have is to be as close to perfect as possible and force whomever that will be to reach for something truly trivial as an excuse for the sanction. But mark my words, it will happen. We can reopen this discussion then. --Ludwigs2 16:30, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

    Statement by KillerChihuahua

    Response to points as numbered by Ludwigs:

    1. Edits which did not violate sanctions were not specifically considered; while Ludwigs' contributions to the project were weighed in determining the sanction, the report, discussion and sanction were all necessarily about the violations, not adherences to, policies and Discretionary sanctions as authorized by ArbCom.
    2. Ludwigs offered a "counter proposal" to proposed sanctions, in which he basically offered to try to follow policy so long as he was allowed to continue to lump opposing editors together, as he would "ethnic or religious groups". I did not consider this a helpful solution. I neither accused him of not trying to be better, nor of looking for a loophole, but did caution him on my talk page when approached that such characterization is problematic and has led to blocks and bans.
    3. If Ludwigs cannot edit collegially, he cannot edit. A topic ban of short duration will hopefully allow him time to reconsider his approach. I changed from 1 month to 6 due to his continued combative approach on AE, indicating he would continue problematic and disruptive behaviors. It appeared to me that more time away would be needed to gain the necessary perspective. I hope 6 months is enough time; I hope he spends that time wisely, re-examining his edits on Astrology and why they were so disruptive and unacceptable. In his statement, he included the comment that "I don't my attitude sometimes either - but my attitude is a product of trying to reason with people who do not want to be reasonable and are willing to use force to avoid it." in which he admits that his attitude may have a fault, but then turns around and blames that on the other editors, who "do not want to be reasonable". There is nothing punitive about trying to separate an uncivil editor from those he blames for his lapses in civility and personal attacks.
    4. Ludwigs2 was the only editor in the report, and therefore the only editor for whom sanctions were considered. There was no hypothetical other editor who was not sanctioned. This is unfortunately another example of the "Us vs. Them" battleground view which has caused so many problems, and is continuing to cause problems, for Ludwigs2 and editors trying to work with him.

    Please let me know if there are any questions, thank you. KillerChihuahua 17:51, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

    • Note: the topic ban is fairly narrow, and about a subject (Astrology) that Ludwigs2 has stated several times he does not care much about editing; he has also stated that "I'm not all that concerned about the topic ban itself" and is appealing merely for the principle of the thing. I'm not quite clear on which principle he feels is in play here, however. KillerChihuahua 12:29, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
    • Note 2: Regarding AQFK's and T. Canens comments regarding sanctions of persons other than the person reported: Yes, we have the discretion to sanction others; I have done so myself in the past and will surely do so again. I did not mean to imply that such sanctions should not happen, or that I never consider them, etc; but rather that in a case where only one person is reported, for that person to have sanctions and not others is not a "double standard"; a double standard would have been if two editors with virtually identical transgressions, editing history, contributions records, comportment etc had been reported, and one had been sanctioned and the other not. So 1) this is not a case of having a double standard and 2) My post was not meant to imply that because this particular time the one person reported was the only person sanctioned that is how it always is, or should be. Sometimes the reporting party is sanctioned and not the one reporting, for example. (And when that happens, its not a case of shooting the messenger, either.) KillerChihuahua 13:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Becritical

    I think the Ludwigs has earned himself some sanction, certainly, for being chronically uncivil. But the way it looks to me he has stated that he will not be uncivil anymore. Thus, I think 6 months is harsh. I was expecting something more like two weeks or a month, and then another chance to see if he can be civil and not refer to groups of editors in a negative manner. I would suggest revising the ban period to two weeks or a month, then give a longer ban if things do not go well when he comes back. He does have useful ideas on the articles where he edits. He is also correct that the more scientifically oriented editors are nasty to the advocates a lot. This is a fact for what it's worth. It is obvious that there are two sides at the article, and it would be unreasonable to try and make Ludwigs never mention that fact. The two sides obviously come from different social milieus.

    How about if he promises not to make his own behavior contingent on the behavior of others? Because I've been observing him for some time now, and eliminating that excuse would go 90% of the way to either having him be civil, or else be uncivil with no excuse at all. B——Critical 19:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

    Comment Olive

    As long as a solution has been offered by Ludwigs as an effort to correct his own behaviour then a sanction becomes only necessary as a secondary step, that is, if the first step, in a community that professes to be non punitive, isn't effective. Self correction on Misplaced Pages by implication is a superior and preferred way to deal with behaviour that is not community accepted. And Ludwigs is right. Name calling is rampant in regards to some editors and by some editors.The truly unfortunate aspect is that this name calling has become so commonplace, like fringe POV pushers, advocate, and worse, and has become so engrained in the Misplaced Pages culture that it is accepted, brushed aside with out notice, or ignored.

    If any aspects of Ludwigs proposal isn't acceptable remove it , and amend the proposal. Always, our position must be to help editors improve behaviours, and to do so in a way that does not punish good and productive editors. Seems a simple, first-step solution has been offered. (olive (talk) 21:00, 14 October 2011 (UTC))

    Comment by A Quest for Knowledge

    I have not participated in the discussion on the Astrology talk page, but I have followed it over the course of the last week. From watching the discussion, it's clear that Ludwigs2 has earned himself a sanction, but it's also clear that he's not the only one causing a problem. On the one hand, I am sympathetic to the viewpoint that the reason why Ludwigs2 is the only editor being banned is simply because he was only editor being reported. That's fine. I understand that. But on the other hand, by focusing on a single editor in a dispute when other editors are also causing a problem, it simply leads to gaming of the system. I don't fault anyone at AE for this happening. My point is that a more holistic approach is required. Maybe my point is beyond the scope of this appeal, but something is broken in the system itself. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:06, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

    Statement by SirFozzie

    Just a comment here, this caught my attention (I have AE on my watchlist). I personally do not consider the sanction to be out of line with expectations. In fact, I have concerns that this is seemingly a habit with Ludwigs2. Consider the events of the Arbitration Enforcement Sanction Handling ArbCom case. Ludwigs2 is a generally decent editor, as long as other editors remain relatively civil. However, they has a habit of "returning fire" so to speak. If they perceive someone as editing outside Misplaced Pages's norms and policies, then they feel justified in violating those norms to deal with it. Unfortunately, as the saying goes "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind". It is important to stay within Misplaced Pages's norms and policies when everyone else is.. it is just as important to do so when other editors are violating them, it means that admins and others in the topic area can see the difference between those playing by the rules and those who are violating them.. makes everyone's life easier....SirFozzie (talk) 20:21, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

    Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Ludwigs2

    Result of the appeal by Ludwigs2

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • This appeal does not seem to challenge KillerChihuahua's conclusion that misconduct occurred, only the sanction imposed for the misconduct. I'm not convinced that KC's chosen sanction (a 6-month topic ban) exceeds the limits of admin discretion. Regardless of whether I would have chosen to impose the same sanction or a more lenient one, therefore, I'm of the opinion that this appeal should be declined, consistent with my longstanding view that AE appeals should not be used to micromanage the severity of sanctions. If, after some time, Ludwigs2 can demonstrate a substantial positive change in his interactions with other editors, an appeal to shorten the ban will likely be considered favorably. T. Canens (talk) 10:53, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
      • AQFK raises a good point. Ludwigs2 made some serious allegations against Hipocrite that, if true, may well constitute grounds for sanctions. While KC is correct that H. wasn't technically reported, and we are never obligated to look into the filer's conduct, we do have the discretion to do so, and in this case it might have been better if we had taken a long, hard look at all involved parties. Regardless of the particularities of this case, I think we should clarify the way by which a countercomplaint may be made. T. Canens (talk) 17:38, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
    • I think T. Canens (and KC) are actually making a very important point about this appeal - it doesn't challenge the grounds on which the sanction was given (ie behavior incompatible with collegial editing); and given that KC's points in the original AE thread dismiss the dubious diffs and rely only on diffs where editwarring and well poisoning occurred I don't see a reason to overturn KC. I would echo T. Canens's suggestion that if, after time has passed, that Ludwigs2 can show that there is no longer a need for this sanction he should appeal it then--Cailil 15:30, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
    • I don't see any flaws in KillerChihuahua's reasoning and her closure with a 6-month topic ban seems well within discretion. At any time, Ludwigs2 is free to start creating a record of more calm and reasonable participation in discussions, to show that this previous problems are over and that he is able to "discuss matters more circumspectly and ... avoid drama-creating rhetoric." If he does so, this close might be revisited. His self-assigned role as a defender of certain positions which he feels to be unfairly maligned on Misplaced Pages can't be helpfully pursued at Talk:Astrology and I don't know what is a better venue. EdJohnston (talk) 18:14, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

    BesterRus

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning BesterRus

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:41, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    BesterRus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Warning of Misplaced Pages:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions
    • BesterRus is to be officially put on notice of potential discretionary sanctions
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 11:19, 19 October 2011 Accusations that User:Vecrumba harbours Nazi sympathies or has somehow been involved in 'collaboration' (figurative or otherwise) with Nazis.
    2. 09:07, 20 October 2011 BesterRus clarifies/redacts his comment to clarify that Vecrumba was not being personally attacked; rather, he meant the Baltic states and their inhabitants collectively.
    3. 19:58, 20 October 2011 BesterRus responds to Vecrumba's objection, stating that he was not focusing on Latvians specifically, but rather all Balts, and that Vecrumba is one of 'them'.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Perhaps this is a bit harsh or even bite-y of me, but I felt that it was necessary to bring this here for official review. BesterRus is a relatively new editor who has immediately decided to rush headlong into the hostile environment of Eastern European disputes here (e.g. inserting himself into the current MedCab case regarding Holodomor POV disputes, having never previously participated in any discussion on the topic) with a flamboyant us-versus-them battlefield mentality. He made efforts to backtrack on his initial nationally-motivated attack on Vecrumba, but never retracted it fully. Instead, he shifted his meaning from personal attack to national attack, staying on the "Nazi sympathies" grounds specifically targeted in the Digwuren case. He has shown a willingness to moderate his comments on a strictly personal level, but has remained defiant in preserving the intent on a broader national level. In any case, his mentality is strongly counterproductive to dispute resolution, in which he has decided to participate (with right, don't misunderstand me), and he should be made officially aware of the consequences which will follow should he keep it up. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:41, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Done.

    Discussion concerning BesterRus

    Statement by BesterRus

    Comments by others about the request concerning BesterRus

    Result concerning BesterRus

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement Add topic