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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Risker (talk | contribs) at 17:43, 30 August 2011 (→Interaction ban: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator or clerk, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behaviour during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

Query about duration

Hiya, asking a question as an uninvolved admin. On the proposed remedies, I'm not seeing anything about duration. I have no opinion one way or the other, but am seeking clarity: Are these intended to be indefinite bans, only to be changed upon appeal to ArbCom? Or do they have an expiration date? Whichever ArbCom intends, it might be best to spell things out. --Elonka 03:03, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions for prior examples. When no duration is mentioned, as has been the custom in recent cases, topic bans are understood to be indefinite. Jehochman 13:31, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Jehochman's understanding is correct. After an appropriate period has elapsed, a request to lift or modify a restriction may be posted on the Requests for amendment page. (In some recent cases, we have provided more specifics about how much time should pass before any amendment request is made and what sort of factors we take into account in evaluating such requests, which in general are more or less what common sense suggests they would be, such as good editing in other areas of the project.) In this case, I would think that Cirt should plan to spend a very significant period of time working on other areas of the project before he even considers making any such request. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:10, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

too broad a proposal

• - 3.3.2 Cirt restricted for all non-NRM BLPs is too broad a proposal

• - Request to the committee

With it looking likely with two opposes to the broad BLP editing restriction please consider voting on my proposal instead - Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Cirt and Jayen466/Workshop#User:Cirt is banned from_editing WP:BLP articles of politicians (broadly construed) - there has been clear evidence of editing violations presented on the evidence page in regards to multiple BLP articles in this sector. Off2riorob (talk) 13:50, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

The all-BLP restriction is too broad and is effectively a site ban. A ban on editing BLPs of politicians makes sense. Tangential mentions of politicians in other articles should not be included. Jehochman 14:35, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I have wording in mind for a more tailored alternate proposal regarding "non-NRM BLPs" in case the decision is to take that course. (As you will have seen, I've asked on the proposed decision if other arbs want to move in that direction.) The input in this thread and on the workshop is helpful in this regard, so thank you all for it. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:13, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

A more limited ban would be acceptable as a remedy as well; if Brad doesn't get to it I'll offer one as well based on sentiment on the decision page. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 16:03, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I understand the application of this remedy Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Cirt_and_Jayen466/Proposed_decision#Cirt_topic-banned_from_new_religious_movement_.28.22NRM.22.29_articles, and will of course abide by it. However, I agree with this comment by Newyorkbrad at remedy Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Cirt_and_Jayen466/Proposed_decision#Cirt_restricted_for_all_non-NRM_BLPs. I agree particularly where Newyorkbrad states: this proposal is too broad and would effectively ban Cirt from editing any article except perhaps for ones concerning purely abstract concepts. Newyorkbrad notes an important point: For example, Cirt sometimes writes articles about U.S. Supreme Court cases. If he writes "in 2010, Jones sued Smith, and the case reached the Supreme Court, where the opinion was written by Justice Scalia," he has mentioned three living people, and all three mentions are "within the scope of the BLP policy" although all three are incidental and harmless. This sort of remedy is too broad, and would likely be stretched by a few users to effectively ban me from editing any article or page on Misplaced Pages. — Cirt (talk) 17:42, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Interaction ban

I am inactive for this particular case, so will comment here. I find the wording and the intention of the interaction ban between Cirt and Jayen466 to be quite concerning, and to have the effect of sanctioning one of the few editors who failed to bow to the masterful use of every process within the project to separate Cirt from his critics, including regular noticeboard postings, COI and SPA allegations, blocks, SPIs, sudden warnings from Cirt-friendly admins otherwise uninvolved in the articles in question, RFCs, and now arbitration remedies. Jayen466 has been the one person who's weathered it through all of the other "discipline" and stuck it out to bring a problematic editor to arbitration. Sanctioning him for having the fortitude to do what everyone else has given up on seems to send the message "Hold Cirt to community standards, and you'll be on the receiving end of sanctions yourself." It's clear from the current votes, and Cirt's own admissions, that his editing in many areas of the project has been a longstanding problem. That other editors backed off or decided not to invest significant time and energy into addressing the issues with Cirt's editing does not mean that the problem was any less significant, only that people don't want to spend their time on frustrating and unpleasant tasks where they need to constantly defend themselves.

Should Jayen466 wind down the rhetoric occasionally? Possibly, and the simple fact of proposing a finding related to this is sufficient, whether or not it even passes. But we should not be applying arbitration-level sanctions to editors who stick it out through difficult cases to curtail seriously problematic editing in one of our most critical areas. Risker (talk) 17:43, 30 August 2011 (UTC)