Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by I7laseral (talk | contribs) at 23:32, 22 June 2011 (→Libyan generals). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

ok Jaiyen29

Welcome!

Welcome to Misplaced Pages, EkoGraf! I am Marek69 and have been editing Misplaced Pages for quite some time. Thank you for your contributions. I just wanted to say hi and welcome you to Misplaced Pages! If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on my talk page or by typing {{helpme}} at the bottom of this page. I love to help new users, so don't be afraid to leave a message! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• Introduction
• The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
• How to write a great article

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Also, when you post on talk pages you should sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); that should automatically produce your username and the date after your post. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome!

Marek.69 14:05, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Question.

Question. Umm, maybe.. so 'Commanders and leaders' is right..? Thank you. --Idh0854 (talk) 04:25, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Citations

When providing references, please avoid using bare citations if possible. Secondly, while I upon re-checking the source fully acknowledge my mistake (I had read it before, but evidently too fast), please avoid comments like "read the source before...", which, even if that was not the intention, can be perceived as hostile and not assuming good faith. Regardless, it appears you've been adding some good stuff to various articles and I hope you'll continue. Cheers, 62.107.209.191 (talk) 16:54, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

300 killed as if fact in the info box

Please don't replace this edit again. - http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2011_Libyan_uprising_%28Tripoli%29&diff=417156166&oldid=417150388 if you want to add it as claims and according to harry and according to john in the body of the article then I can accept it and add reputals , for discussion but please do not replace it as if a fact again. Off2riorob (talk) 00:49, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Attribution

Please stop adding content as if fact - as in 3000 troops and 300 dead - these are unconfirmed claims only and they need attributing to the sources - they are not facts at all, please stop presenting them as such. Actually therer are no confirmed claims at all. Please attribute correctly. Off2riorob (talk) 01:40, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

As you seem to not going to stop revertting, I have templated the article - it is not NPOV - as I said, there are no confirmed facts and they need attributing correctly and until they are the article is not neutral. Off2riorob (talk) 01:42, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Battle of this and battle of that

Please take your time - As an uninvolved person , as I see it the naming under battle is a complete exaggeration - totally a false representation - I can see you are involved but please consider a neutral reporting of the issue - I will be back tomorrow and there will again be no battle for here or there, please take the long term position , thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 01:46, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I have made my issues clear and you have moved to you favoured position but I still clearly dispute so I have added dispute templates and will discuss more tomorrow, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 01:50, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

info box unconfirmed claims

Its best if you don't ever add unconfirmed claims to any infobox. Add your claims and attribute to article body, especially when they are completely unconfirmed. Please stop edit warring. Off2riorob (talk) 02:05, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

2011 Libyan uprising (Tripoli)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on 2011 Libyan uprising (Tripoli). Users are expected to collaborate with others and avoid editing disruptively.

In particular, the three-revert rule states that:

1. Making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period is almost always grounds for an immediate block.
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you continue to edit war, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. _ Off2riorob (talk) 02:14, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

claims and attribution

Add death claims to the body of the article and attribute as close as possible. Off2riorob (talk) 02:17, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I am unsure , but you seem to have copied my warning to you to my talkpage, so I deleted it. Off2riorob (talk) 02:21, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

cautious reporting

I am uninvolved in this - I care less about it, but lets take care on what we report, 100 dead , 1000 dead, claims, please err on the side of caution, and step back if you are involved on one side or the other, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 03:33, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

one last time

I'll tell you this one last time, I think most of the things both sides are claiming is rubish and propaganda, I think the number of 3,000 dead or 6,000 dead is fantasy. I myself belive that no more than 1,000 people have died, and 200 of those were probably loyalists. However, it's not up to us to insert our points of view where we think that things the BBC or CNN say are rubish or propaganda (which they most probably are). Our job as Misplaced Pages editors is to present both sides views and claims and stay neutral. There are no facts in wars, only claims, which can never definitely be confirmed, especialy in this conflict where we will never have independent observers on the ground, at least not until the war is over.EkoGraf (talk) 03:39, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

One last time - stuff off. Just attribute and use strong citations - and add to the body of the article - please do not present your claims as if fact.

I will be here tomorrow and the day after, I am a neutral wikipedia editor. The battle of Tripoli is the fact, bigoted fantasy, false claim . As per wikipedia users - the battle of Tripoli is a wikipedia editors fantasy...bla di bla di bla. Off2riorob (talk) 03:44, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Off2riorob, please learn how to indent your comments. You are not following proper Wikiquette by not doing so. I've indented them here so you may learn from it.

Second, since I'm here, I remind you that your opinion has nothing to do with it. If a reference clearly states that something is fact and it's a legitimate reference, you must accept it regardless of your opinion on the fact. Good day. CycloneGU (talk) 03:52, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

You're Wasting Your Time

Off2riorob is a user with a lengthy block record, meaning that this will just be another shiny medal for him. He has a history of being extremely contentious with what he believes is correct, regardless of what others say.

I hope in the 3RR situation that you yourself did not reinsert information three times in identical fashion, that others were also involved in the reinsertion of that information. As long as is the case, you should be safe; otherwise, they might nab you also. I hope given this user's glorious history that it takes precedence.

As for why I happened upon this, I was curiously checking into whether the user had any interest in communicating with me regarding his opinions on the Pending Changes discussion, which I obviously disagreed with him on by removing a flawed poll that he felt it necessary to add to a page that would take two days to read to even reach the poll. His poll was a total catastrophe before, and this user is demonstrating that he is more than willing to ignore whatever he feels like ignoring. Hence, as I noted, you are wasting your time. Just let 3RR work itself out. Cheers. CycloneGU (talk) 03:49, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

This post copied from CycloneGU's talk page to maintain conversation in one location.

I know I'm wasting my time, I saw his block record. I did undo his edits, but each time I didn't revert to the last version before him, instead I tried to make changes that could be considered compromise solutions. However, he pushes his POV without any regard to how it can hurt the neutrality of the article. I don't know what to do or who to turn to.EkoGraf (talk) 03:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

For starters, there is the noticeboard for 3RR violations. I am also going to make a quick check of things and confirm whether the information he is attempting to remove is actually legitimate, if I can make a determination either way. Having a second editor confirm also helps keep you out of trouble for 3RR and edit warring. Also, please remark here; per the notice attached to my pages, I am watching your page for any replies. =) CycloneGU (talk) 04:05, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

All right, I can't find the information on a force of 3,000 in the second reference as you refer it. I did find the source for the 7,000, saying 6-7 thousand. Still checking other refs.

Source #3 now claims over 20 people - 4 in one, 19 in another I think I saw in that.

The problems are the three articles on the Tripoli clashes, the Battle of Brega and the Battle of Ras Lanuf.
Tripoli - In the Tripoli article, I myself stated that I am for it to be renamed because it wasn't a military battle, however he attacked me that I am not for renaming it and is constantly deleating the number of killed. I tried to insert in the infobox the claim by the IFHR that by February 24, 275 were reportedly killed, and the opposition claim that on February 26, 25 people were killed. For the sake of compromise I noted that both figures were claims. He deleted those sourced figures along with the references.
Brega - He constantly claims that it was just a minor skirmish and not a battle, even though every major media outlet is describing it and calling it a battle. I asked him for a source where it says it's a skirmish he plays crazy like he didn't hear me. And says that media claims don't count. He also constantly deletes the number of dead from the infobox because he says the BBC only claims 14 died in the battle/skirmish so it doesn't count if it's not fact. Again deletes both figures and sources.
Ras Lanuf - Same story as Brega. I tried to compromise with him and for the sake of stopping the edit war I renamed the article to Ras Lanuf clashes. But that term is simply too much POV, since these kind of things are and are being called battles.
I realy don't know what to do, I am at a loss for words.EkoGraf (talk) 04:17, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the sources confirm 3,000 or 7,000, he doesn't want to include them in the infobox because, according to him, if it's a claim it has no place in the infobox. o.O And this is the source for 3,000 . It doesn't matter to him if it's sourced, because they are according to him all just claims and if they are not facts then they don't count as sources for the infobox. And I tried and asked him what are facts according to him, he said independent observers, when I asked him what are the BBC and health groups if not independent observers, he just ignored me. EkoGraf (talk) 04:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

The problems are the three articles on the Tripoli clashes, the Battle of Brega and the Battle of Ras Lanuf.

Tripoli - In the Tripoli article, I myself stated that I am for it to be renamed because it wasn't a military battle, however he attacked me that I am not for renaming it and is constantly deleating the number of killed. I tried to insert in the infobox the claim by the IFHR that by February 24, 275 were reportedly killed, and the opposition claim that on February 26, 25 people were killed. For the sake of compromise I noted that both figures were claims. He deleted those sourced figures along with the references.

Brega - He constantly claims that it was just a minor skirmish and not a battle, even though every major media outlet is describing it and calling it a battle. I asked him for a source where it says it's a skirmish he plays crazy like he didn't hear me. And says that media claims don't count. He also constantly deletes the number of dead from the infobox because he says the BBC only claims 14 died in the battle/skirmish so it doesn't count if it's not fact. Again deletes both figures and sources.

Ras Lanuf - Same story as Brega. I tried to compromise with him and for the sake of stopping the edit war I renamed the article to Ras Lanuf clashes. But that term is simply too much POV, since these kind of things are and are being called battles.

I realy don't know what to do, I am at a loss for words.EkoGraf (talk) 04:17, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm looking at Ras Lanuf right now. It might help to mention the rebel's name from ref 7 (Marai), I don't know what ref 6 is referencing but ref 5 doesn't give the two day information, only "earlier in the week". That needs to be better referenced. Ref 8 matches two others; I'll help you fix references later once everything checks out. Neither refs 9 or 10 mention the 20 executed soldiers.

So in summary, some editing is needed and I will not question Off2riorob on questioning the accuracy, as I found a few inaccuracies among the ones that do check out. I'll hel;p sort out citations later if you can fix it up. I am concerned about the triple-ref source, however; since it's constantly updated, information will vanish over time and have to re researched and referenced elsewhere. Keep an eye on that. =)

I do not know about the rule with claims. I know infoboxes are generally for facts. I'd stick claims into the prose; it deserves to be mentioned if referenced in the sources, but perhaps not in the infobox. But again, I don't know the rule for claims in the infobox. CycloneGU (talk) 04:25, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Cyclone, that's just it, there are no rules for the claims thing. When we don't have independent figures we at least mention in the infobox claims by both sides and note they are claims. This has been done everywhere, in the Iraq, Afghan, Vietnam and other war articles. And here is the 20 soldiers executed source , and I should note, that 20 soldiers executed claim was not originaly inserted by me. And I just saw that Off2 has tolled me to stuff of which is breaking the rule on civility, and I have said nothing to inslut him. He has broken at least 4 wikipedia rules by now. According to Off2 the BBC's figures and the health group figures are not facts but just claims. Than I don't know what figures are to him.EkoGraf (talk) 04:35, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I deleted his post. He added it in a very unusual way that made no sense, and I almost thought you were getting upset at me until I realized it was a trademark post relocating but in a very bad way. I've left a note on his talk page regarding it.

Regarding the content of your last post, I could find someone in the Wikiproject (if we can locate a proper one) and get an additional opinion from someone better adept at this style of article. For now, work on removing information that is not in the sources and of course add anything else relevant; we can fix the neautrality of the article, if necessary, as we go. CycloneGU (talk) 04:41, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

No, he copypasted something I told him to my page. He was starting to constantly say blah blah blah instead of talking to me like a normal being and I couldn't take it anymore, but was still trying to be civil. Didn't say anything that was directed at you. Listen, the problem here is, I am adding sourced information, but he doesn't regard those sources factishes enough, even though it's the BBC, CNN, Guardian or whatever.EkoGraf (talk) 04:43, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I am asking you now Cyclone, would this be ok to add to the infobox in the Tripoli clashes article? 275 killed (by Feb. 24/IFHR claim), 25 killed (on Feb.26/opposition claim) I noted the figures to be claims for the sake of neutrality.EkoGraf (talk) 04:51, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I apologize, can you give me 15 minutes? Not going away, just need 15 minutes. =) CycloneGU (talk) 04:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok.EkoGraf (talk) 04:55, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

All right, I'm back. Let me see where the article is and I'll comment further. Please keep posts to this page and add one extra colon to each new post so we have some kind of resemblence of sequence here, all right? For instance, read what I've typed and see the ":" - start your next post with two of them "::" and so on until an outdent is necessary. =) That's how to typically do it on most talk pages, but a one on one conversation can have exceptions. CycloneGU (talk) 05:21, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I just left a notice at the administrator noticeboard that he violated the 3 revert rule, and also noted if he tries to defend himself that I also violated it, that my reverts were not total reverts but edits in an attempt to find a compromise solution.EkoGraf (talk) 05:23, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Excellent. I did notice that and that bodes well for you as I don't quite call yours a violation, but an attempt to compromise (I'll add to the notice you posted), but as another piece of advice (I'm full of these today LMAO), please be careful with your edit histories. One looked merely like an invitation to arguing on your part ("Indicating it's a rebel CLAIM, happy now?") might be slightly further than you should go. I can see however you were getting aggravated and am overlooking it, but just be careful not to put something there without thinking; you can't EVER change the edit history.

Let's go back to what you want to add now while I find that notice. Which source gives what specific information you wish to add to the article right now? CycloneGU (talk) 05:32, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

275 killed (by Feb. 24/IFHR claim), 25 killed (on Feb.26/opposition claim) You can also check my last edit at the article here .EkoGraf (talk) 05:35, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Noting I've only looked at Ra's Lanuf so far, I read this in the source:

The figure is more than double the official Libyan government toll of 300 dead, and includes 275 dead in Tripoli and 230 dead in the protest epicentre in the eastern city of Benghazi, the IFHR's Souhayr Belhassen said.'

The Benghazi toll includes "130 soldiers who were executed by their officers in Benghazi for refusing to fire on crowds" of protesters, she said.

Thus, for that one, adding 275 dead in Tripoli's article and 230 dead in Benghazi's article are good additions (just include the source). It's important to note these are claims, not official numbers. The 130 soldiers is also notable, though that far differs from the 20 from before. for #6 as I see it now, refer to it as up to 25 people in the prose, it's not an exact figure.

As for the edit, it's a start. Tripoli looks like people want it redirected to another article while others say keep; if a redirect happens, make sure to update there. Once the decision is final it's not worth fighting to keep its own article. CycloneGU (talk) 06:04, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I myself am not able to add the 275 and 25 figure in the box because it would be an additional violation of the 3 revert rule and also he would just revert me stating that humanitarian group is not reliable and is only claiming and not stating facts.EkoGraf (talk) 06:08, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I never got back to you. Give it a little time and give Rob a chance to go away, then go ahead and do the editing that is necessary. If he's still watching the page and keeps trying to revert, then we might have a more serious problem. Besides, you have the existing 3RR complaint, but it appears not to have even been given any attention at my last check (everyone deserves a day off), but given that almost 24 hours have passed since the incident, I don't think anything is going to happen. Just give it a little time, then try making the edits again. After 24 hours, 3RR no longer applies and you can try again.

I would suggest reviewing the notes I made above and making sure improper material is removed, however. As promised, I will help with the linkage once the article is cleaned up a bit. CycloneGU (talk) 02:17, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

It appears the situation has calmed down, if you would check the discussion pages for the Ras Lanuf and Brega battles you will see a number of editors have expressed their opinion that what he did was not all right. At Brega the situation has totaly calmed down and at Ras Lanuf there is still a discussion going on about the renaming because one more editor voiced support with Off however others have voiced support for the name of the article to be Battle of Ras Lanuf. :)EkoGraf (talk) 02:20, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Awesome, glad the situation has calmed down. I haven't been checking any of the article talk pages today, so I wasn't up-to-date on the proceedings. I didn't want to make any edits since I didn't know anything about the subject, too, but instead leaving that work to someone who knows something about what they're researching...and my posts here were just advice on what to change, so I hope that also was constructive to the discussion. =) The 3RR warning still sits untouched, not expecting anything out of it but who knows? CycloneGU (talk) 04:25, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The Barnstar of Diligence

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		For your work on Battle of Benghazi adding well cited content, generally improving the article, and maintaining a NPOV. All the Best, Mifter (talk) 18:58, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

the BBC

• - content cut and copied for educational and discussion purposes only not for publication. - It is a mistake to see this campaign as an outright civil war. In skirmishes like those around Bin Jawad and Ras Lanuf, as few as 100 men are fighting on each side. Most are lightly armed, and even the aircraft which are used on the government side are remarkably ineffectual in their bombing - for whatever reason. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12663513 - Off2riorob (talk) 21:11, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Don't know the purpose of your last message to me about the civil war thing since I wasn't talking to you about that at all, but I will use this chance and say that I support the change in name of the conflict to Libyan civil war like I have already did at the articles discussion page and this assertion of yours that as few as 100 men are fighting on each side is totaly unsupported since there are numereous sources where we have confirmation from reporters on the ground who say that for instance at ras lanuf there were 500-1,000 rebels against 3,000 loyalists. And on the western front Zawiyah has been reduced to ruble because of the fighting, wouldn't call that a skirmish. Two loyalist brigades are fighting against 2,000 rebels there, wouldn't call that 100 men eather. In addition, as of today CNN and a few other news media have started calling it a civil war.EkoGraf (talk) 21:17, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I will just make an edit here and there, as I am uninvolved apart from my usual concerns with policy and content - this issue is repeated as usual with such newsy articles and wikipedia needs to find a solution to the issue, but basically, the articles are all awful, often written by opinionated single purpose new accounts from one side or the other, with poorly formatted citations some of which are not wikipedia reliable and claims presented as if fact, all the usual editing standard are unable to be reviewed and any attempt to improve the articxle is reverted or removed and replaced with the next newsy claims. I think clearly when this is over, articles like the one you insist on calling a battle will correctly be merged to a couple of lines at a more correct location, all these minor spats don't warrant an individual article. Burt time will tell. Off2riorob (talk) 21:27, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Zawiyah

I think you called the battle too early, see the source at Talk:Battle_of_Az_Zawiyah#Qaddafi_victory.3F. —Nightstallion 22:23, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Map

I was wondering if you have any knowledge on who fixes or updates the map on the Libyan uprising page? Zenithfel (talk) 11:52, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Never-mind, I found out how to find out who is editing the map, you use wikimedia commons. Zenithfel (talk) 12:41, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

attribution

Please try no to add weak claims, there are all sorts of false unconfirmed claims and you continue to present them as if facts, wikipedia is a neutral publisher please follow WP:NPOV and attribute who is is that is claiming the claim and who it is that is reporting who has claimed it. There is little to nothing verified regarding all these dead and so on. I see you commenting that in your opinion thousands have died but please don't add such unverified claims as if facts, they are not facts at all. The rebels claimed the troops refused to shot - well how come the troop sare all shooting now, the rebels claimed to have found 20 mutinous murdered troops, please attribute and take it easy - we are not a rolling news report, the editing on this section of articles is very opinionated. Off2riorob (talk) 17:57, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I have been following Misplaced Pages's NPOV rule, and all of my edits are sourced. Me and several other editors told you, your opinion that those are week sources, although I cann't see BBC and CNN week, is just your personal opinion and it doesn't count. We report based on references and strong references have been provided. I warned you before that removal of sourced information can been seen as vandalism so please stop, thank you.EkoGraf (talk) 18:01, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

WP:VANDALISM - is something else entirely. Like I said attribute and take it easy, we are not a propaganda rolling news report. Off2riorob (talk) 18:03, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Changed the wording so it is reportedly and according to the rebels. Ok?EkoGraf (talk) 18:09, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I haven't looked, I only look occasionally as the articles are so poor, but if you have attributed then yes better, thanks. IMO it would be a lot better if you stopped focusing on all these unverified claims, focus on the major verified or at least close to verified details. Such as , On Friday Gadaffi troops entered the town, there were unconfirmed reports from both sides of small numbers of injured and dead...which is plenty of detail, all will lster be verified and presented in an encyclopedic way, presently its a farce of unverified propaganda from both sides that you are adding to wikipedia - we don't need it - all the papers are full of different claims, wikipedia doesn't need to report them all. Off2riorob (talk) 18:15, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Libyan uprising page

Can we get someone to establish a protection template on the page? Like the type where non-users are not allowed to edit. There is repeated vandalism Zenithfel (talk) 16:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Casualties of the 2011 Libyan uprising

The article Casualties of the 2011 Libyan uprising has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

This page violates a number of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines; WP:NOT#NEWS, WP:VERIFIABILITY, WP:CONTENTFORK and WP:No original research.

While all contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Abductive (reasoning) 04:27, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Second Battle of Benghazi

Made the page, needs a lot of info to be added.Zenithfel (talk) 11:23, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Infobox

They messed up the infobox on the Libyan uprising page again, i don't know how to fix it because i can't undo it due to other people editing after the editor who did it.Zenithfel (talk) 20:09, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Who caused poss. casualties?

I have removed the claimed casualties from Operation Odyssey Dawn, and believe it is only fair I provide an explanation: For casualties to be added to any of the specific country operation pages, we need to know that they really happened as part of that exact operation. Tomahawk attacks were by both US and British, and additionally British planes have bombed an undisclosed location (BBC). Consequently we have no way of knowing if these deaths, if they actually happened, were part of Operation Odyssey Dawn. Based on the information available in the provided source, they could just as well be the result of the British Operation Ellamy. Or for that matter a combination of the two. Regardless, I'll see if I can locate a source that provides some more specific information on this, and if I find it I'll add the info to the specific operation page(s) with the new ref. Cheers, RN1970 (talk) 03:53, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

You are entirely right that no casualties was not satisfactory when one side claims there were casualties. However, I do believe it is better to be accurate, so I have re-inserted the exact numbers that you added initially (no matter if it is "1 death", "some deaths" or "50 deaths" the source still does not say exactly what operation was involved), but provided a note that explains the uncertainty. Cheers, RN1970 (talk) 04:28, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, I believe this change to "unknown" may be the best option for now. Though I probably would have said it more diplomatically than this user, claims by the Libyan Government easily fall under WP:RS#Questionable sources. RN1970 (talk) 04:36, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. No one knows where these casualties are from or how they were injured. Could be due to rebels, as they are known to have aircraft as well and be using them. Having the support of international air supremacy may have given them a bit of courage to attack. Who knows. Given how much state media has been shown to be manipulated recently, it;s far from a reliable source. Unknown is far more reliable.--Terrillja _talk 04:47, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Discussion is here.--Terrillja _talk 04:49, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, I see good points on both sides, but have to say I believe change to "unknown" is the best option for now. The Libyan Government and the associated national tv have a clear history of providing misinformation (it was only yesterday they announced ceasefire... only to move ~150 km and attack Benghazi). Please also see WP:GEVAL and WP:Balance. But I'm off to bed, so I'll leave it here for now. RN1970 (talk) 05:02, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Please read Misplaced Pages:TP#Indentation. Fixing your comments is tiresome.--Terrillja _talk 05:14, 20 March 2011 (UTC) ^this guy. again. read it. learn it. do it. fixing your inability to format is pissing me off.--Terrillja _talk 07:08, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

March 2011

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Operation Odyssey Dawn. Users are expected to collaborate with others and avoid editing disruptively.

In particular, the three-revert rule states that:

1. Making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period is almost always grounds for an immediate block.
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you continue to edit war, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Terrillja _talk 06:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Language

I apologize for offending you. I'll refrain from using profanity. Let's not get distracted by it though, shall we? Swarm 07:09, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

not 2S1 Gvozdika!

The destroyed self-propelled howitzers south of Benghazi are not Soviet 2S1 Gvozdikas but Italian Palmarias! You can recognize a Palmaria by bit of the gun which holds it in place - it has two steel protusions to the left and right that keep in place. Here is a good description of the Palmaria noclador (talk) 05:00, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

you're welcome :-) noclador (talk) 05:06, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

and there was also a 9K33 Osa surface-to-air missile system ripped apart: noclador (talk) 05:29, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Zawiya

On a different note, look out for news regarding Zawiya, through random statements and references to the city in recent days, it seems that the goverment largely withdrew from the city a few days ago, which would put it under rebel control or atleast unclear situation. I guess do the same for Zuara. The TNC also claims it has "representatives" from cities all over Libya including Zuara, which may indicate renewed resistance.Zenithfel (talk) 00:55, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

That the government forces withdrew does NOT indicate rebel held territory. Not in Libya. In peacetime Libya there are local, more-less tribal, militia supposed to control of the public order. So the army withdrawing could actually indicate the opposite.Ihosama (talk) 02:13, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Like I said on Zenithfel's talk page, the withdrawal of tanks from Zawiyah could just indicate that the city has been firmly secured by the government, the tanks moved on to fight another battle elsewhere and the loyalists left a smaller contingent of troops to guard the city, local militias like you said. EkoGraf (talk) 02:28, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Google

Here is a useful tip I just wanted to share with you in case you didn't know. You can quickly find relavent information by typing a word into google and then clicking "latest" at the left of the screen once you searched for it. Thus you can find the latest postings of info relevent to your word. You can also do it for 24 hours 1 day, 1 week month year ect

example or

Zenithfel (talk) 02:01, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Casualties

In the casualties box on the Ajdabiya page it says up to 154 rebels killed, and uses the video given by Al jazeera as a source. However the vidoe states that those 100 killed were civilians. The info box is quite a mess and i can't change it without breaking it, but if you can change the info box to state over 100 civilians dead as referenced from video, it would be much appreciated. Zenithfel (talk) 19:47, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Ajdabiya

One of the reasons why there may be so much confusion regarding Ajdabiya, is because when you look at the city it self up close using google maps, it is really hard to define what makes western eastern or central Ajdabiya. On top of that there are several "east gates" and a couple of western gates. Check yourself using google maps satellite image up close on Ajdabiya. Zenithfel (talk) 02:36, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Marsa Brega

Marsa Brega definitely recaptured.

http://www.france24.com/en/node/5156407

France24 correspondent philip crowther at Brega himself and says and shows rebels have captured it.

He later tweets that he himself later went past brega and found that they have established a checkpoint 15km west of Brega too. Though this is not a proper source for wikipedia.

http://twitter.com/#!/PhilipinParis

The use of Twitter

I noticed that another user has placed Twitter as one of the sources. While the account is genuine and definitely belongs to Nic Robertson, I would caution against using Twitter as a source, as after a while the information on the source becomes lost due to new tweets. For example in a few weeks no one will be able to find that info in the source. Sopher99 (talk) 00:18, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Brega

As it turns out, i have discovered that neither the Rebels or Gaddafi's troops are in Brega at all. While the rebels are in the outskirts, Gaddafi;s troops are in the unvieristy, where they are using heavy artillery to keep the rebels away. The univeristy actually happens to be half a mile away from brega.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCoQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbbs.keyhole.com%2Fubb%2Fubbthreads.php%3Fubb%3Ddownload%26Number%3D966752%26filename%3D20101218113707-4d0d0d63008916.38970247.kmz&rct=j&q=Marsa%20Brega%20university&ei=VMuYTYCfF8LngQe8943UCA&usg=AFQjCNHnZidGYrLX_fs-xa9vunB9o3UQGg&sig2=eODqde5uuXjalgZmB429bw

If that link doesn't work for you

http://wikimapia.org/2062806/Bright-Star-University-of-Technology

If it is possible, i wish to make a note of this on the third battle of Brea page, but unfortunately i fear it counts and independent research. If you can find a way to add this info it would be appreciated.

Zenithfel (talk) 19:39, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Casualties of the 2011 Libyan civil war‎

Good evening. Sorry at casualties of the 2011 Libyan civil war‎ I made a mistake, I do not know why I put Mahmoud Gibril when I meant Ali Hassan al-Jaber. More strangely, there are two Mahmoud Gibril. Sorry for the confusion. Regards --Youssef (talk) 18:46, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

talk page etiquette

Hi - What part of this discussion id finished here don't you understand - I have closed or requested you stop posting on my talkpage so please follow that request. Off2riorob (talk) 14:47, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Yeah right, the rebels are lying and making up propaganda by saying 700 of their men were missing so to damage themselves. Nice way to lead a propaganda war. Whatever, we already noted it is unconfirmed. Also, they did not say 700 were killed, they said 700 were missing. By all accounts they were captured, which has been since then confirmed with independent investigations that have concluded several thousand members of the opposition have been rounded up and put in prisons in Tripoli and Sirte. EkoGraf (talk) 14:45, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Second battle of Ajdabiya

I'm glad that we found a good solution. The next time, please dont accuse someone who changes your edits of vandalism. Regards 62.178.177.37 (talk) 21:09, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

The Algerian man was likely a migrant worker, according to the source. Stop writing false information in the article, or you will be reported. 62.178.177.37 (talk) 16:39, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Tanks

When Nato says 11 tanks around Ajdabiya, they mean from Brega to Ajdabiya, a span of 50 miles. the 6 armored vehicles were just in the 1 or 2 mile proximately. Nato strikes tanks heading from sirte to Ajdabiya, but those can't be confirmed because correspondents simply can't travel there. So just because a correspondent sees only 6 vehicles doesn't mean there aren't more destroyed vehicle 10 or 20 miles further in Pro-Gaddafi territory.Zenithfel (talk) 23:39, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Misrata casualties

I know its frustrating trying to differentiate between propaganda and facts, but i personally think there is no intentional propaganda going on here. Each report we get is just from one doctor out of dozens. Each doctor is obviously keeping a mental record, and because they are human, there are bound to be mistakes. You should also remember that the number dead are only the ones brought to the hospital. In all likelihood there are alot more dead due to artillery shellnig in area that the rebels have a difficult time getting to. It would appear that most do get brought to the hospital, as it seems the rebels are making a conscious effort to reach every place hit. You should also remember that not all doctors were there from day one, or were keeping records from day one. People also die from their injuries, and I don't see the doctors saying "today 2 people died from their injuries" ect, so that could make the difference. Zenithfel (talk) 01:13, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Destroyed loyalist BMP in Misrata.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:Destroyed loyalist BMP in Misrata.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude2 (talk) 04:41, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Al kufra

Al kufra is next to Al jawf, which is on the Jalu road Zenithfel (talk) 01:31, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Ref

You also forgot to change the death count at the 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests page, but you did change the refs. Pass a Method talk 18:09, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

The Saudi soldier is part of the Gulf Cooperation Council meaning he is considered also a policeman. The soldier is being called a policeman because he was sent as GCC police enforcement. You're getting specific terminology mixed up. I'd appreciate if you self-revert unless you can find a source saying theres 4 policemen killed plus 1 soldier. Pass a Method talk 18:27, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Could you please specify which source says that "all four were run down by cars" ? ThanksPass a Method talk 19:18, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

nafusa mountains

About 100 dead Civilians or rebels in Nafusa mountains past 24 hours. http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-18 Zenithfel (talk) 18:52, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

The video

Here is an exclusive video of Misratan rebels fighting a gun battle of the school. In the video you notice that they killed 6 or 7 Gaddafi men thus far because you can clearly see the corpses in green armor lying around. On a daily basis the rebels do not report how many they kill, just how many cvilians and rebels died. Should we count the loyalist corpses in the video and add them tot he death toll? http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-19-0 Zenithfel (talk) 13:05, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The video is at the 1:35 PM section

The vidoe is a blurry one, let me get the uncensored one. Zenithfel (talk) 13:07, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Tank video

Here is some evidence that at-least 10-15 of the 35 tanks Nato claims to have targeted were actually targeted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvaCEmP2TWc&feature=player_embedded#at=98 Zenithfel (talk) 19:52, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

brega situation

The NTC has ordered rebels not to attack Brega for the past few days, claiming that NATO told them they would take out artillery so that rebels can enter. I lost track of which source said it, but see if you can find something on that. I know for sure that NATo took out the telecommunication systems from Sirte through Brega yesterday, and that there have been no shelling or attack by Gaddafi's forces from the brega road, and within 40 miles on brega road there are no Gaddafi forces. (perhaps there are a few on Jalu road still) Musa Ibraham also agrees that NATO is going to intentionally start a rebel offensive, though he is crazy to begin with. Basically i do not believe this is a stalemate, but an intentional calm. I have read source saying this, so thery are out there. Zenithfel (talk) 00:11, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

re:Map of Misrata

I was thinking of doing that. The only problem is that I can't find resources for a good map like this one. If you know of a detailed map of the city with street names then I would gladly use the info. Otherwise it would be a waste of space to create one that only contains Tripoli Street. the Airport and the seaport.--Rafy talk 02:38, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I will see into it. Hopefully I will finish sometime after Easter.--Rafy talk 00:34, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Personal attacks

Simply stating that i don't get Misplaced Pages's rules is not helpful. Please refrain from personal attacks, which i beleive is Misplaced Pages policy :) Fancyflyboy (talk) 23:07, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Consensus? Whatever happened to 'Misplaced Pages is not a democracy'? Fancyflyboy (talk) 23:16, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

You use the word 'majority', again; Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. It's worth pointing out that this vote was before this battle, and as such only applies to battles and conflicts before it. Fancyflyboy (talk) 23:25, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

The majority of an outdated vote; let Misplaced Pages's newly founded democracy vote on this new battle. They may very well decide to mergae it, but don't assume. Fancyflyboy (talk) 23:31, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

The battle of Wazzin happened after this vote; ergo the vote was not about this battle. Maybe outdated is the wrong word, but my point stands Fancyflyboy (talk) 23:37, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Your 'see you after the merge' comment is just jejune; you're acting like you have some personal stake in this merge. Please either debate or leave the issue alone. Fancyflyboy (talk) 23:43, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Jejune means childish. Misplaced Pages doesn't need to be boiled down as much as you may like. Cheers for what? You're really not making sense here Fancyflyboy (talk) 23:48, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm British. Cheers is British for 'thank you'. You keep saying 'bye bye' in increasingly jejune ways yet you keep replying to me. Politeness seems to be too much to ask so can i just request consistancy? Fancyflyboy (talk) 23:53, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Yifrin? Yafran? Yefren?

I started a move request Talk:Yifrin which you might want to weigh in on. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 03:11, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

regarding the maps

As of today rebels have now reached the airport in Misrata, and on fighting for it. http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/2011428101929477818.html

Also rebels lost control over the border post http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-28 Zenithfel (talk) 16:23, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Pretty clear which side they are on

When you said that could you motivate your input ? It's not that clear for me. Zil (talk) 17:35, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Syria

I noticed in the page's history you update the casualty numbers. I tried updating but only messed it up. About 50 civilians/antigovernment dead today. http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/04/201142993412242172.html Zenithfel (talk) 19:55, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

May 2011

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Everyone is welcome to contribute to the encyclopedia, but when you add or change content, as you did to the article 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests, please cite a reliable source for the content of your edit. This helps maintain our policy of verifiability. See Misplaced Pages:Citing sources for how to cite sources, and the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. You re-added the lower death estimate although the source for this claim dates back to 2 months ago, so is out of date. Pass a Method talk 18:51, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Please do not add unsourced content, as you did to 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests. This contravenes Misplaced Pages's policy on verifiability. If you continue to do so, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. Per WP:CITE policy Pass a Method talk 07:35, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Please read the Misplaced Pages:No original research policy which is one of the three core content policies. Pass a Method talk 07:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

If you disagree with certain sources because of "propaganda purposes" (as you put it), you need to go to WP:RSN. Otherwise, your claims are null Pass a Method talk 09:22, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

All references disagree with you

Almost all news reports of the last 2 weeks give a 10 000 - 30 000 count : Libya death toll: References from last 2 weeks

Why should i take your word over recent prints by dozens of notable/established newspapers, tabloids and magazines? Pass a Method talk 10:07, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Your thoughts?

I'd like you to weigh in on this AfD, if it's not too much trouble: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tajoura airstrike. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:39, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Brega–Ajdabiya road

From today's AJE Live Blog:

9:36pm

In a live interview with Al Jazeera, a Libyan rebel commander claims rebels have killed 57 pro-Gaddafi soldiers and destroyed 13 military vehicles during a major battle in Ajdabiya, a city in west Libya.

Hamed al-hafi said fighting happened on the periphery of a small outpost half way between Ajdabiya and the strategic oil port of Brega, where Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's forces control.

Over the past 20 days, we had reorganised our forces. The real clash happened two hours ago, on the outskirts al-Arbaeen.

Al-Hafi said two rebels were killed in the fight, during which Moatassem, one of Gaddafi's sons, was leading the government forces in Brega. His claims could not be independently verified.''

What do you make of this? A new battle? Or continuations of the old one? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:03, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I responded to both of your latest messages on my talkpage. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:32, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Libya Alhurra

I really don't think the Libya Alhurra tumblr is any more reliable than al-Manara, Wefaq Libya, libyafeb17 or any other rebel website. You added it to the Battle of Misrata article here, and I am wondering what your reasoning was behind it. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:39, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I removed it today here. I see you have now removed it again, which is good. All is in order. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:48, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Re: end date

I think that the battle for the city proper is over at this point. The shelling is dying down at this point, from what I gather. We should check what the sources are saying, though.

"Pyrrhic" carries a strong negative connotation, so I would say no to that. Plus, we don't know if more loyalists were killed, since we only ever got sporadic estimates, never an official death count. "Decisive" would be much more appropriate here; this is a huge victory for the rebels. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:06, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I put in a note to Rafy at the Commons talkpage.

Yes, rebels lost a lot of man and saw most of their city destroyed. However, if they can consolidate their massive gains from the past days, then this would really be decisive. Gaddafi and his forces is getting weaker by the day. They still have some fight left in them, too be sure, but I think we are starting to see the beginning of the end of things here. Misrata was a battle with huge symbolic significance for the rebels. It is like their Stalingrad: more casualties than the enemy (maybe), but a very important victory on a symbolic and strategic level. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:21, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Maybe, but I think this time it may be for real. Gaddafi's "well-trained" army is becoming ragged and demoralised, by most accounts, while the rebels are in high spirits and becoming more professional by the day. His money is slowly but surely being siphoned off to the rebels, who are gaining ground diplomatically as well as militarily. Tripoli is not quiet in the air or in the streets; acts of civil disobedience are growing bolder and bolder. Mu'ammar himself is getting increasingly dodgy; his latest "appearance" was just his voice. Sure, it's possible that his forces will make gains, but it's only a matter of time until everything starts falling down around his head. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:39, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I have given the matter some more thought, and I believe firmly that the battle should be labelled as a decisive victory, as it was the biggest battle of the war with tremendous significance for all involved. There don't seem to by any counterattacks on the city, and though the rebels have (wisely) not decided to overstretch themselves in advancing further, they appear to maintain a firm grip on the city and have consolidated most of their gains. Sure, the rebels lost many fighters and the city was ravaged, but we don't know for sure if it was greater for fewer losses than G-unit suffered; what's more, this victory has shown the world that the rebels can fight effectively enough on the ground to win a major battle. What do you think? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk)

Oh, of course. NATO was the factor that tipped the scales heavily in the rebels' favour. But so would the loyalist air force have been for G-unit had NATO not stepped in. Also, the fighting on the ground was also a very important factor as well. Regardless, NATO is listed along with the rebels on one side of the infobox, so it is fair to include them as one with the rebels in deciding decisiveness. But the only situation where this victory is not "decisive" that I can think of is if the rebels lose most of Misrata again. I really don't see that happening, since the loyalists seem to be wearing out in materiel, morale, and manpower by the day. We can wait, but I predict that when this is all said and done, the biggest battle of the war will be labelled as decisive. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:34, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't discount the loyalist air force entirely. I recall many reports early on that said that the rebels were absolutely terrified of the Gaddafist planes, even though they didn't always hit things. Taking them out of the skies certainly improved the confidence of the rebels. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:47, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Re: Nafusa

I don't mind a name change. Start a request if you wish.

The thing with Yafran is that I only see references to a "siege". This would be a very odd word to use to describe loyalists occupying the city. Indeed, Gharyan, which we know to be under occupation, is not described as being under siege. There are bulletins like this which make me think that the city could still be held by rebels:

"The revolutionaries are patiently waiting for the help of the revolutionaries of the Nafusa Mountains to break the siege on them and provide them with the weapons and food which they are in dire need of." (Sunday 15 May, 12:00 h)

I think that original report of the city's loss was premature; what really happened was probably that G-unit surrounded the city, cutting the rebel fighting force in two and severing communications. But since the reliable sources are scant for this, it is best for Yafran to remain as "situation unclear". ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 09:28, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

AJE Live Blog has this update which seems to indicate that Yafran is under heavy siege and in a very dire situation, but still in rebel hands, as it talks about G-unit shelling the city, not being shelled in the city. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:48, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I said that Gharyan was occupied by loyalists, did I not? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:50, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, ok. No worries. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:40, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Re: Casualties

Alright, sounds good. I've been more focused on the military aspect of the war, but I'll see if I can find some sources to help with that

But in the meantime, User:Reenem has been adding daily updates to the main article, often using Libyafeb17 as a source. I've put in a message at his talkpage for him to stop, but I'm not sure if he got the message. These updates need to be reliably sourced and moved to the Timeline; if sources can't be found, they should be deleted.

Also, the Human rights violations in the 2011 Libyan civil war article is an absolute disaster. It needs to be restructured and expanded with some of the recent news from the ICC regarding loyalist crimes. As it stands, the article is grossly slanted towards some isolated incidents committed by rebels. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:27, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Civilains

Good idea. Make sure to make it clear on the casualties page that the table covers armed combatants only. I should also point out that you appear to have made a mistake on the table, where you put 358 as the Misrata rebel death toll. 358 is the loyalist one, not rebel death toll. Zenithfel (talk) 16:16, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

bad map

It was some glitch in commons... refer to the talk page we might have to re-upload that image with a different name if it persists.--Rafy talk 10:05, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Re: info

Oh wow, that sounds bad. At least we have a definitive verdict on the current situation. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:22, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Misrata

It's the 1-week anniversary of the rebel recapture of Misrata, and loyalists have not yet launched a strong counterattack. What say you — decisive or no? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:00, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

No not decisive, not until Zliten or Sirte falls if they do Zenithfel (talk) 23:21, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Yefren

Within a week thousands are probably going die in Yefren, as that is when they estimate their food will run out. Gaddafi's forces surround the area, and no supplies come in.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1391197/Time-running-starving-Libyan-town-Yefren-Gaddafi-offers-ceasefire.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/05/21/libya.small.towns/index.html?eref=edition_africa&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fedition_africa+(RSS%3A+Africa)

I just thought i would give you the heads up, so that if thousands do die, you can add them to the casualties table without hesitation. Suddenness is often paired with doubt and restraint when editing wikipedia. Shouldn't be that sudden if I already warned/prepared you of the idea.Zenithfel (talk) 23:21, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Most major news sources still report Yefren as under siege so I think it should be kept blue until a clear evidence is found.--Rafy talk 09:23, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Rafy on Yafran; there are simply too many conflicting reports about it. Rebels have claimed its loss before, only to be contradicted by reports of intense fighting. This report may be referring to the loss of the city centre, who knows? The situation is not clear, thus the full blue circle is best. Rayayan is certainly in Gaddafist hands, though. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Zinjibar

I'm seeing a lot of reports of heavy fighting between Yemeni government troops and Islamists in Zinjibar. Should a Battle of Zinjibar page be created? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I was just about to reply when I got your message. I'm not sure what the best title for the battles outside of Misrata would be; I was thinking maybe 2011 Libyan rebel advance from Misrata, but that seems a bit cumbersome. As for Yemen, we should wait a bit to see if the fighting spreads. Right now it seems to be centered in Sana'a and Zinjibar, and these are not 100% affiliated with the protests. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:43, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

The Sana'a clashes are most definetly affiliated with the protests. They were a response by the tribes to Saleh not wanting to give up power and attacking protestors. As far as Zanjibar goes...well...that one isn't 100 percent connected, but it is connected somewhat because of the reports that Saleh gave up the city so he could prove a point to the protestors. So in essence Zinjibar is a result of Saleh's attempt at staying in power from a certain point of view. And I do belive this will go the way of a civil war if Saleh doesn't step aside, and, if it will be like what we saw in the last week, than it will be most definetly more bloodier than Libya. EkoGraf (talk) 15:48, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I had meant to say "protesters", not "protests". Both battles are reactions of certain groups to the uprising, but they do not constitute a general movement towards an armed revolt that is consistent across the majority of the dissenters, as happened in Libya. See for example some of the pictures here. Also, there are no clearly delineated zones of control here, just conflict hotspots in a few cities. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:54, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you about Saleh; if he doesn't step aside, we may see things become more violent. But we should hold off on renaming until the situation becomes clear. Many battles had occurred in Libya before reliable sources started calling it a "civil war" and consensus to move was achieved. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:00, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Taiz?

If this happens to be true, we might find ourselves with another battle-page to create. That is, of course, unless this happens first... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:16, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

In the meantime, I've created an article for Sadiq al-Ahmar. I'd appreciate any expansion that you could help with. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Yemen

Assuming, only assuming, that Saleh does not return, dies, or gives up power, should the page be renamed 2011 Yemeni revolution? I do not believe the acts of violence would degrade that title, given the dozens of bloody revolutions in the past but still called revolutions. It should be noted that the protesters themselves were never took arms into the street, just the tribesmen. It should also be noted that the page gets changed to revolution when the head of state resigns/captured/killed, even if his government is still in place, as that is what was done with Egypt and Tunisia, as well as eastern Europe. What is your take on this? Zenithfel (talk) 15:17, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Misrata

Update misrata casualties, Lots of opposition fighters deaths today mostly due to rocket attacks. Opposition in Misrata getting more impatient so they are trying to push closer to Zliten, and so Gaddafi's forces responding more intensely due to the threat.

http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/06/june-10th-updates/

Zenithfel (talk) 17:48, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Zawiyah Part II?

What do you make of the resurgent uprising in Az Zawiyah? A second battle? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:17, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, though I had been under the impression that the rebels were only ever in the western part of the city, not the east or centre. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Combining all of these battles, many of which are occurring hundreds of kilometres away from each other, would be a bit cumbersome anyway. In the meantime, I've created an article for the 2011 Sabha clashes. You should have a look at it. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:22, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Still don't think it's a great idea. If you can find reliable sources that say all of these battles are connected, then it would be fine. Otherwise, your interpretation of "coincidence" is pure WP:OR. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:26, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Weak agree for Zawiyah. Disagree for Zlitan, as it is still ongoing (see Zenithfel's link on my talk). ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:54, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Your update to the Timeline of the Libyan Civil War 2011

I'm just reminding you that Misplaced Pages takes pride in being as neutral as possible. It is important to write from a neutral point of view. In your June 12th update to the Libyan civil war timeline, your information was very biased towards the loyalist cause and excluded the claims by the rebels they were still fighting in the west and you also excluded the fact that foreign reporters were not allowed to tour the entire city, being barred from the west where the rebels say they are active. The timeline has been edited accordingly. Though the contribution is appreciated, for the sake of all, please try to be as neutral as possible when editing the encyclopedia. Thank you. Daniel Musto (talk) 00:53, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I'd be awesome to keep the conversation on one page but it doesn't really matter. I told you I felt that your information was biased and that I felt you may be writing it from a biased perspective. I did not outright accuse you of spreading propaganda. However, I have been reading articles about Zawiya since it began and never once have I come across an article that said they believed that the city was back completely in Gaddafi's hands. Perhaps the best response would have been to step back, analyze your work, realize how favorable it was to one side, and then more politely tell me that my words were harsh. I didn't set out to offend you, I merely do not sugarcoat things. I also told you your contribution was appreciated and ended with a thank you. Assume good faith, as I did in you. Daniel Musto (talk) 01:25, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Also, what is wrong with the term revolutionaries? They are fighting for a revolution. The root of the word is 'revolt.' They could be revolutionaries if they were uprising for the sake of neon-colored cars. It is still a revolution. Also, I've seen Reuters use this term. Revolutionaries is not a positive or negative term, as I could name many revolutions which were/are regarded as detrimental. Daniel Musto (talk) 01:28, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Link=

Can you give me the link which The Syrian observatory confirms the soldiers deaths. I know several hundred soldiers died. Defectors said "hundreds" were killed by the Syrian army itself, particularly in Rastan. The syrian government does not release the bodies or even show the bodies to any officials, which make it difficult to believe that human rights can confirm, as in contrary, HRGs can see bodies of protesters in general as well as reports. Sopher99 (talk) 18:23, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Yefren

If you don't have a number yet for how many loyalist soldiers were captured in Yefren, this video may help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVIZDIKxFSA&feature=related , i counted 15 captives, at least in that one room. Zenithfel (talk) 12:48, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Bdama

I'm seeing a lot of news coming out recently from Bdama in Syria (for example here). Does the government action here warrant another "siege" article? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:04, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Also see here. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:06, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Tripoli

Just by being against gaddafi doesn't make you a rebel, (even though that is what Gaddafi claims in his speeches). Reporters report 90% of tripoli is against or gave up on gaddafi. Does that mean that 90% of Tripoli residents aren't civilians? Most of the population of Benghazi is against Gaddafi, and at Benghazi's protesting height there were 300,000 protesters, doesn't mean there are 300,000 rebels. Protesters are civilians unless they take up arms or knives. Zenithfel (talk) 21:09, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Also given that this is the first time NATO struck a regular house (though not the first time civilians died in NATO strikes) i would say it is weapons failures, especially after 3000 strike sorties. On the first day there was mechanical failure, and a jet crashed landed in Benghazi, the first day. Given that NATO is hoping for a Tripoli uprising, I highly doubt it would want to eliminate the civilians they hope to help overthrow gaddafi. Though with NATo striking a rebels again in Brega, this would make it the 3rd time NATO messed up a brega assault, so i guess anything is possible.Zenithfel (talk) 21:12, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Responses...

After parsing through what you left on my talk page, I have a few things to respond to:

• Bdama – I'd agree with your assessment. The news reports that came out seem to have overexaggerated the scale of what was going on.

• "Stalemate" – People have been saying "stalemate" for months now, and then one side or the other makes advances. The conflict moves at a stop-and-go pace.

• Misrata – I suspect that the low number of fighters is a big reason why the strategy seems to be to holding the line from Dafniya to Tawargha.

• NATO and the West – Yeah, I've kind of lost patience with them at this point. I suppose it's better than Muammar "Zenga Zenga!" Gaddafi retaking the country, but it's pretty clear that their current "bomb the crap out of Tripoli and hope that Gaddafi gets scared while simultaneously hindering rebel advances by denying funds/weaponry and bombing convoys" strategy isn't turning out so well.

I think it is still possible that the conflict can still end in a rebel victory, but for that to happen, the rebels and especially NATO and the EU need to refocus their efforts. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:04, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

"crushed" uprising

I think you are conflating the earlier crushed uprising in zlitan with recent fighting, your BBC article merely confirmed the former.174.91.109.171 (talk) 21:02, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Libyan generals

Hey, I'm new to wikipedia (though i been editing without user on and offer 2 years) but I am already engaged in article creation. I am working on creating a wikipedia page for each of the 9-12 Libyan generals left, and seeing that you worked on the Libyan civil war for a quite some time, was wondering if you can help find some references in your spare time.

Generals already wikied: Abdullah Senussi, Akbar Younis Jaber, Massoud Abdelhafid, and Mahdi al Arabi ( i created his page).

Generals without wiki page:

Khouidli Hamidi

Al Rafi al Sharif

Awad Hamza

Bashir Huwwadi

Mustafa al Karoubi

Thanks I7laseral (talk) 23:30, 22 June 2011 (UTC) -