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This article was nominated for deletion on June 4, 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. |
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Anwar al-Awlaki article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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11k hits per day?
11/10/2009 seems to say there are 10.9k hits today, up from nothing 4 days ago. Quite a popular guy now.
http://stats.grok.se/en/200911/Anwar_al-Awlaki
- This can be archived.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:07, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Style of the Article
I personally have heard some of his lectures, and I have read the transcripts of the Interview where Anwar Al-Awlaki talks about his connection with Nidal, and have found nothing to assume the idea of him being a terrorist or having ever encouraged terrorism, as you should know, terrorism is strictly forbidden in Islam. I found this article quite astonishingly biased, which is very disheartening, as I, up to this moment, had always looked up to Misplaced Pages to be accurate and unbiased and balanced. I urge Misplaced Pages to rewrite this in a more fair manner, using only facts. If you want to show one side of the story, you should also be fair enough to show the other side, which in this case, is the more correct side.
He has never been a terrorist, and will never be. He is only a terrorist to criminals, the same way a policeman is a terrorist to a rapist , the same way any Muslim, Christian, etc. should be and would be, if they followed the true teachings of their religions.
Therefore, I once again urge Misplaced Pages to remove and rework this article, which is very misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.150.124.42 (talk) 10:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- As a matter of fact, there do appear to be a number of internet postings of individuals on various jihadist message boards, including the facebook "Americans against Awlaki" group expressing exactly your POV. However WP doesn't care what an editor thinks, only what is verifiable from a reliable source. NPOV doesn't mean erasing one point of view (Awlaki is a terrorist) in favor of your view (his is not a terrorist), but rather NPOV means balancing all points of contention. Now if you could find a reliable source, or even a notable op-ed, even from a muslim or Jihad-sympathetic news source like al jazeera or jihadist press that either states this claim that he is not a terrorist, or notes a number of people who make that claim, that could be done to "balance" out the POV. The article already notes that Awlaki himself as well as his father and his tribe maintain that Awlaki is not a terrorist (Just as mosque friends and family of Nidal Hasan have maintained he is a loyal American who never had radical views, was only interested in marrying a devout woman, and never practiced shooting, and that his religion played absolutely no part of his motivation which cannot be determined at this time, and we'll revert any attempt to tag Fort Hood as an Islamic terrorist incident) That would be just like quoting op eds that attack or support controversial newscasters such as Glenn Beck. Nearly all of the people who claim that Awlaki is not a terrorist also express typical taqiya statements that Fort Hood was not an act of terrorism, that Hasan was not motivated by Islam or Jihad, and that Al Queda was not involved in 9/11 but was a US/Israeli plot. Such 9/11 "truth" theories are fairly well documented on WP, and similar Awlaki "truth" theories could similarly be added without needing to delete any mention that the US government and most of the mainstream western press has finally reached the conclusion that AW is worth killing, even if it still hasn't come to the conclusion that he was a co-conspirator who chose to tell Hasan the Islamic thing was to go ahead with the Fort Hood massacre (as is sourced in the article) rather than telling him, as you believe, that Islam forbids such killings (which so far nobody has found any supporting sourced statements from Awlaki other than his followers like yourself). If you can come up with any evidence that Awlaki's spiritual guidance was anything other than his website view celebrating Hasan as a hero, please document the source and feel free to add it to the article. Bachcell (talk) 04:32, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Edit warring/deletions of relevant material
Editor Causa has engaged in a series of edits today that I believe were largely inappropriate. They have included deletions of clearly (IMHO) relevant material from the lead, which I have restored. Similar deletions were made elsewhere. He also deleted pictures that I believe are clearly relevant--of 9/11 hijackers Nawaf al-Hazmi, for whom AA was reportedly spiritual advisor in both San Diego and Falls Church; investigators believe AA knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance, and Khalid al-Mihdhar, for whom AA was reportedly spiritual advisor in San Diego. I expanded the captions to more clearly reflect their relevance. He continued to delete them. I believe the pictures are relevant, that the captions clearly reflect their relevance, and that these deletions -- taken as a whole -- are disturbing ones to see coming from a sysop, as viewed as a whole they chip away at AGF. I've asked him not to edit war, but rather to start discussion here. He has failed to do so. So I'm doing so. Another editor has indicated that he believes that Causa is violating the 3RR, and I would tend to agree. One can't hide behind the apron strings of "protecting a BLP" when facially the edits lack indicia of good faith, and one's claim that "this picture is irrelevant" has been responded to properly. I would ask that Causa desist w/the edit warring, and not continue to delete relevant text and images. Others' views are welcome.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:30, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- I just looked at the series of edits that came after your contributions. I am distressed by the nature of some of those edits as well as by their edit summaries which tend to downplay the magnitude of what *really* happened with the edit. This example, for instance, suggests the editor had a problem with some pictures “(the pictures are still inappropriately suggestive)”. Right off the bat, the pictures were of two terrorists mentioned in that paragraph. Accordingly, they are “suggestive” of nothing more than providing pictures of the subject being discussed at that point in the article, which all good encyclopedias do. If the pictures are attached to text that amounts to just so much conjecture by law enforcement authorities, then the pictures would be adding undo weight to an issue; but it’s not an issue of being inappropriately “suggestive.” We can’t have a rational discourse and discuss anything if editors are providing the wrong reasons to justify what they are doing. I’m also seeing wholesale deletion of material that is seems quite relevant.
- Anwar al-Awlaki is notable because he is a living person of such profound infamy, the National Security Council approved the targeted assassination of him even though he is a U.S. citizen. There is no requirement that equal balance and fair play be added with regard to how Anwar might have once adopted a stray puppy from a shelter or how he exhales carbon dioxide, which is good for plants. All facts that are germane and topical to this subject properly belong here so long as they can be given an encyclopedic treatment and are properly cited.
- I suggest that all editors in this fray stop furiously editing on multiple issues without discussion. This is a collaborative writing environment and conflict is inherent—particularly if editors jump in with a particular slant they’d like to impart to the article. Discuss issues here and arrive at a consensus. If the material is germane, topical, factual, and properly cited, it should generally stay. If it can be improved upon, then improve it. Before hitting the key (which is much easier to do than it is for someone to create encyclopedic content in the first place), concerns should be discussed here first.
- The reason discussion is important is the rest of the Wikipedian community can’t sufficiently get into an editor’s mind by reading just an edit summary; particularly ones that seem to misdirect from the true nature of the edit. If an editor has a logical argument that is based on facts and are supported by current Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies, then let them spell out their rationale here so the issue can be sanitized by the sunshine of public inspection. Greg L (talk) 23:30, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think you make some valid points about the collaborative editing environment. However, the spirit of the WP:BLP policy is to remove potentially defamatory content from the article with haste and discuss afterward whether, and in what form, it should be reinstated. That explains the urgency of my removal, and my tendency to use reverting without discussion here. Out of respect for the subject of the article, we must discuss what content should be in the article before we put it in, not after. That's why I encourage you all to join me in discussing my objections to this content before we reinstate it. With the potentially defamatory content out of the article we can discuss civilly what, and whether, it should be put back in. Thanks. causa sui (talk) 02:37, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, it is possible that one might be tempted to wonder whether that is not just a mite disingenuous, isn't it? I mean, hours have gone by since you made your series of baseless deletions, and you've made no rational reasonable credible statements to support them here -- ever after your gosh-I-have-to-rush-with-great-haste-to-make-them-immediately reverts. Not one. Even your above comment is wholly content-less. I began assuming good faith. But your edits -- which began with wholesale deletions today of both footnoted paragraphs of highly relevant text and of images -- forces me to no longer labor under that assumption. In addition, you have ignored the communications of four other editors. Your apparent willing disregard of consensus, and edit warring without discussion, is conduct not befitting one who holds the mop.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:23, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, come… on, Causa sui, who are you trying to kid with that post of yours? First, please desist with your “that’s final”, somewhat dismissive tone where you conclude your post with a terse “Thanks” (as in “thanks for your understanding as I lay down the law”). You have now been warned by Xeno, a Bureaucrat, here on talk:Edit warring that “BLP is only a trump card if there is a legitimate concern”, which you simply don’t have.
At its core, BLP simply calls for common-sense stuff that applies, really, to all articles: Neutral point of view (NPOV), Verifiability (V), and No original research (NOR). Misplaced Pages must have special rules for biographies because of some high-profile horror stories involving living celebrities and politicians. Senator Byrd was rightly upset to read that he was now dead, according to Misplaced Pages. You, an Admin, of all people, should understand the principle behind WP:COMMONSENSE and its wise counsel that “Being too wrapped up in rules can cause loss of perspective.” So, since I perceive a galactic-grade degree of lack of common sense in your approach here (either that, or simply citing nonsense in an attempt to prevail at all cost), allow me to guide you along…
WP:BLP calls for (among many other things) that “Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy.” Now, do tell… are you thinking that some of the most infamous people on the planet, such as Osama bin Laden and Anwar al-Awlaki, both of whom have presidential and National Security Council approval for Navy SEALs to put a bullet in their head and for the Air Force to drop a 500-pound JDAM on them, have, according to Causa sui, some sort of “right to privacy”?? Do tell; must we have a huge RfC over on WP:BLP to explicitly spell out for your benefit what is blindingly obvious to everyone else? Notable individuals of world-class infamy are an altogether different class than are people like politicians such as Teddy Kennedy and Robert Byrd, or a celebrity like David Letterman who was recently embroiled in an unfortunate blackmail/extortion attempt. That’s the sort of stuff WP:BLP is trying to address with added details such as Avoid victimization. Now…
You will not hide your conduct behind the apron strings of WP:BLP. Your argument where you write we must discuss what content should be in the article before we put it in, not after is utterly absurd. The easy giveaway on that one was where the words preceding that whopper were Out of respect for the subject of the article… Greg L (talk) 04:13, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- Just for the record, I'm an admin - not a bureaucrat, and I wouldn't really call what I wrote a warning as such. It was a general comment and I hadn't reviewed this situation entirely. (Still haven't - going to bed - maybe in the morning). If an edit war continues, it should be reported at WP:AN3 and/or WP:RFPP for uninvolved administrators to review the situation and take action if necessary. –xeno 06:02, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- Odd, I figured you to be a ‘Crat. Thanks nevertheless for weighing in; it makes a big difference. Greg L (talk) 17:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, come… on, Causa sui, who are you trying to kid with that post of yours? First, please desist with your “that’s final”, somewhat dismissive tone where you conclude your post with a terse “Thanks” (as in “thanks for your understanding as I lay down the law”). You have now been warned by Xeno, a Bureaucrat, here on talk:Edit warring that “BLP is only a trump card if there is a legitimate concern”, which you simply don’t have.
Yes. BLP policy applies to all people, not only including accused terrorists, but especially accused terrorists. This is a paradigm case of why BLP policy exists: the content of this article might not only damage the mere reputation of the subject, but might actually contribute to his being killed. There has hardly been a case where our obligation to get the article right has been higher. causa sui (talk) 04:32, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- I see that you have heartedly embraced the notion of “A strong defense requires a strong offense,” even if you have to resort to shear nonsense. You will 1) carry out your editing conduct just like any other editor around here, 2) won’t be using your Admin-hood as if you have some sort of “I Am Really *Really* Special”-license where you can conclude your posts with stuff that reads like “so sad – too bad and thanks for your understanding”, and 3) won’t be hiding behind the apron strings of WP:BLP to get what amounts to “I get it all my way by default until I’m happy with what I elect to discuss on the discussion page.” You will abide by the consensus view, just like anyone else. If you’re smart, you’ll slow down the pace, discuss things more, and aim to achieve a consensus instead of that slash & burn flurry-editing and reverting of yours. Greg L (talk) 04:37, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- I concur. BLP does not sanction removal of reliably sourced information already widely reflected in the press or notable editorials. NPOV requires airing of ALL points of view, not removal of POV contrary to yours. Since it is widely sourced that Awlaki had contacts with 9/11 hijackers, as well as one of the Cole Bombing planners, it belongs in the article whether or not it might affect a jury trial. In general WP guidelines are no more or less strict than RS news articles. The New York Time for example does permit printing of facts that may support that a person may or may not be a terrorist or 9/11 participant. If you can find notable or reliable sources, or even a wild conspiracy theory on a notable jihadist blog like Revolution Muslim that casts doubt on whether Awlaki had anything to do with 9/11, you could ADD that, but please do not simply REMOVE a POV that you disagree with, especially if it is against consensus. Bachcell (talk) 04:43, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that we shouldn't remove reliably sourced information from the article. I assure you that I have no intent of doing so. If we could begin to discuss the actual content of the article, we could make some progress. causa sui (talk) 15:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
P.S. Causa, if writing something on Misplaced Pages’s Osama bin Laden article really could get the guy bombed into virtual vegetable soup any sooner, I’d write the CIA and give them a tip. I think they’d pass though. (*sigh*) I’m done for the evening. Goodnight. Greg L (talk) 04:49, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, thank you for being honest about your point of view. Personally, I have no particular love for either person. However, the BLP policy as well as common-sense standards of editorial judgment demand that we not suspend our editorial integrity when dealing with BLP's of people we don't like. In fact, if we don't like the subject, that is all the more reason to apply harsher scrutiny to the article. With that in mind, I've been combing the article for various errors, and the process isn't complete: but so far, I've identified several claims in the article that are not supported by the citations, as well as a general POV that claims made by the State Department about the subject's actual involvement in terrorism are true and the subject's denial of those claims is false. That he incites politically and religiously motivated violence against the US is nothing to debate about: we have all the sources we need for that, most of them straight from the horses mouth. But on the issue of the alleged links between the subject and the actual plotting of terrorism, this article steps well beyond what the citations actually support. We need to be honest with ourselves about what information we actually do have, and reign it in. causa sui (talk) 05:07, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- Very well; that’s fine. Good job. Just slow down the pace of flurry-editing and reverting. Discuss things (that’s a two-way street) if you get reverted. Like I wrote above, discussing matters out in the open sanitizes the dispute with the sunshine of public scrutiny and results in less editwarring because both sides must think about the issue and explain their reasoning (which tends to make editors exercise logical thinking and double-check their facts). Greg L (talk) 17:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry for the delay; I was out of town this weekend, but I'm back and ready to get to work on this. I'm glad we're on the same page when it comes to verifying our sources. I want to make clear why I am reverting without discussion, though, as this is a tactic I also generally find distasteful and in 99% of situations I would be saying exactly what you're saying. However, in the case of BLPs, we've set a lot of precedent that getting the content out is a first priority: 3RR does not apply to potentially defamatory material and those restoring the content are expected to have found consensus first before putting it back in. I'm not trying to be a lawyer here or prove myself right or whatever, but I want to at least explain myself so I don't seem unwilling to discuss this. However, BLP policy applies to this article just like any other, and that means removing problematic material immediately and sorting out what should go back in, not the other way around. With all that said, I don't at all mind breaking precedent on the issue of who should go first, so I'll start drafting some explanations of content I want to remove, and I'll make a better effort to document what I'm doing and why as I make future edits. causa sui (talk) 14:58, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Just be exceedingly clear about what it is you want. And be sure to cite, with links straight to the relevant text, the governing policy you think applies. Because I seriously doubt that when WP:BLP had its last major re-write, the issue of known terrorists with a bounty on their heads was on anyone’s radar screen. Yeah, yeah; you’ve written here that you think Misplaced Pages’s articles especially need to be sanitized to keep known terrorists from being killed any sooner. It is just utterly preposterous to think that the CIA or Navy SEALs could find the guy any easier and kill him because of what’s on Misplaced Pages. Or that officials from America’s Executive Branch are going to harden their resolve because of what they read here; school teachers across the land routinely caution their students to not rely upon Misplaced Pages when doing their homework. Yet here you are, doing your part, demanding that wide swaths of text be expunged to ensure that galactic-grade terrorists aren’t given a bum rap. That sort of reasoning is just utterly inane and I’ll have none of it.
Notable public figures of infamy of such an extreme nature that official U.S. bounties are on their heads (and they are too damned dangerous to try in any civilian court) are in an altogether different class than what was being discussed when Misplaced Pages falsely reported that Senator Byrd died. If you can’t figure that much out on your own, and keep on trying to remove material because it makes terrorists read like… terrorists, then this issue just might balloon into an RfC somewhere so we can finally have formal, written guideline covering people like Osama bin Laden and this creep. It would be better if you just exercised more WP:COMMONSENSE, stopped pointing to guidelines that were not intended to fully and properly govern these sort of topics, and got real rather than have to involve the rest of the community.
I keep on hearing from you and others that Epeefleche is POV-pushing. I can certainly see that his edits to these sort of articles make him sometimes seem intent on ensuring “bad guys actually look bad.” But from what I’ve seen, he logically and politely responds to reason, and it is quite easy to edit his stuff to ensure it is germane, topical, balanced, reads encyclopedically, and is authoritatively cited. I’m not seeing the same out of you just yet; particularly not when you make hay here with garbage like your below allegation, that including pictures of two terrorists with whom al-Awlaki had many closed-door meetings “further suspicion unfairly biases the reader”. That is just a metric ton of weapons-grade bullonium. Greg L (talk) 21:20, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Just be exceedingly clear about what it is you want. And be sure to cite, with links straight to the relevant text, the governing policy you think applies. Because I seriously doubt that when WP:BLP had its last major re-write, the issue of known terrorists with a bounty on their heads was on anyone’s radar screen. Yeah, yeah; you’ve written here that you think Misplaced Pages’s articles especially need to be sanitized to keep known terrorists from being killed any sooner. It is just utterly preposterous to think that the CIA or Navy SEALs could find the guy any easier and kill him because of what’s on Misplaced Pages. Or that officials from America’s Executive Branch are going to harden their resolve because of what they read here; school teachers across the land routinely caution their students to not rely upon Misplaced Pages when doing their homework. Yet here you are, doing your part, demanding that wide swaths of text be expunged to ensure that galactic-grade terrorists aren’t given a bum rap. That sort of reasoning is just utterly inane and I’ll have none of it.
Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this, so further discussion is probably a waste of both our time. I will use sysop tools to enforce WP:BLP on this article if necessary, though I don't want it to come to that. Future debate about the applicability of our core content policies to all articles (not just those of people we like) will have to be carried out in front of arbcom, as I won't discuss it further. --causa sui (talk) 15:15, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
BLP cleanup
In this section, I'll document changes I'm making on the grounds that they are against the letter or spirit of the Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons policy. If there is something I've missed, please create a new section. --causa sui (talk) 15:06, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
"Close contacts"
I removed this section of text:
There were close contacts between al-Awlaki and Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the suspect in the Northwest Airlines Flight 253 al-Qaeda terrorist attack on Christmas Day 2009. According to the suspect, al-Awlaki was his recruiter, and one of his trainers.
- The CBS News article opens by stating that Abdulmutallab "may have been in contact" with al-Awlaki. 'Sources' told CBS that they 'believe' they 'communicated'. Very vague and hedges their bets, hardly supporting the strong claim that contacts concretely did exist or that if there were contacts, that they were "close". Apparently, investigators (who are they?) are "looking into" the extent of the relationship. Ultimately the article incites suspicion, but does not establish, nor claim to establish, an actual link: but we reported the suspicion as concrete fact. Nor did we report the one concrete fact reported in the article: al-Awlaki's vehement denial of the allegations.
- Now, the NY Post article. This is a little bit better because it says the two "absolutely did" meet, though it attributes the "absolutely did" claim to an unnamed Yemeni authority, not the suspect, as our article claimed. The reason the Yemeni authority is certain that they did meet is that they were both in the area at the same time.
On the same grounds, I removed this statement from the lead:
According to Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the suspect in the Northwest Airlines Flight 253 al-Qaeda terrorist attack on Christmas Day 2009, al-Awlaki was his recruiter, and one of his trainers.
The aforementioned CBS news and NYPost articles are again attributed to this claim, but it adds a Washington Post article that also does not claim Abdulmutallab named al-Alawki. causa sui (talk) 16:39, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Avoiding needless discussion of your analysis, I'll simply suggest you could have added this ref, orthis ref, or this ref, or all of them and kept the material. That would have been more helpful than deleting accurate text.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:27, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks, I'll look at these. The LA Times article is definitely better than the citations I originally found, and in some slightly adjusted form (again striking colloquial talk of "close ties"), that citation might well be enough to stand alone. The Times Online article is not quite as good. It refers to this claim in passing, saying "There are already informed reports that Mr Abdulmutallab met Mr al-Awlaki during his final weeks of training and indoctrination for his supposed suicide mission". The article in general reads more like an editorial and I suspect this part is probably based on the same report that the first citation was, though I'm not sure. I wonder if it would really add much. The third also says they were in contact, so that's good. I think we have something here in the first citation that could be the basis for a compromise revision, though we'll have to talk about our citation practices as well, and making sure that citations that do not support our claims are not cited as if they did. causa sui (talk) 05:01, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Again avoiding needless discussion of your analysis, I'll simply suggest you could have added this ref, or this ref, or this ref, or all of them and kept the material. That would have been more helpful than deleting accurate text.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:27, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Hm, these look like the same links, so I guess we should stick to the discussion above. causa sui (talk) 05:01, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- As long as the text remains, I care little whether it has one ref or more. The only time I care about that as a general matter is when an editor seeks to remove a primary source, as in the removal of an actual indictment as a ref where the text discusses what is in the indictment.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:56, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
(undent) All right, let's stick with the LA Times article then, as that's clearly the strongest one. I think this is the relevant passage:
Some of the information about Awlaki comes from Abdulmutallab, the 23-year-old Nigerian charged with attempting to detonate a hidden packet of PETN explosive aboard a Northwest Airlines flight from Amsterdam to Detroit on Christmas Day, the officials said...Under questioning by the FBI, Abdulmutallab has said that he met with Awlaki and senior Al Qaeda members during an extended trip to Yemen this year, and that the cleric was involved in some elements of planning or preparing the attack and in providing religious justification for it, officials said.
This is good, since it concretely claims that Abdulmutallab named al-Awlaki. How about this:
According unnamed U.S. officials, "Christmas-Day" bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab implicated al-Awlaki in some elements of planning or preparing for his failed attack.
Good? --causa sui (talk) 15:20, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
9/11 hijackers attended his sermons
The article stated:
Al-Awlaki's sermons were attended by three of the 9/11 hijackers.
I removed this claim since it was not attributed to any citation. Finding a reliable citation that supports the claim would fix it. causa sui (talk) 16:10, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- In the section on this subject in the article, as I expect you know since you appear to have read the article, this is in fact referenced. I'm confused why instead of moving those refs to the sentence if you feel they are necessary, you would instead choose to delete a sentence for which there is obvious RS support. That could be viewed as disruptive.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:15, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Sure. It's good to make sure we cite our claims everywhere, even if we repeat them, to avoid these kinds of situations. If you have specific suggestions I'd be happy to talk about them. causa sui (talk) 05:07, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- I stand by my prior comment.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:58, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Targeting young US-based muslims
The article stated:
He is often noted for targeting young U.S.-based Muslims with his lectures. Terrorism consultant Evan Kohlmann calls al-Awlaki "one of the principal jihadi luminaries for would-be homegrown terrorists. His fluency with English, his unabashed advocacy of jihad and mujahideen organizations, and his Web-savvy approach are a powerful combination." He calls al-Awlaki's lecture "Constants on the Path of Jihad", which he says was based on a similar document written by al-Qaeda's founder, the "virtual bible for lone-wolf Muslim extremists."
All sounds well and good, with very concrete direct language and appropriate use of direct quotations, which is very helpful. There are two problems with this passage:
- As far as I could tell, the article does not support the "often noted" claim, as this would require a citation attributed to a secondary source that has done a review of the primary literature.
- The content is blended with allegations of actual planning/plotting of terrorism, whereas the cited article (and the content in our article) only refers to incitement, which is not contended.
In retrospect, it may have been hasty to remove the quotation immediately, though I do think we should talk about where it ought to be placed to avoid the appearance of "padding" the allegations of direct involvement. causa sui (talk) 16:18, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- There is more than one way to address this, as we could either: a) add a ref supporting directly the first sentence, or b) change it to a more direct statement, by having it say "He often targets ...", and perhaps adding a ref or two. I'll suggest the second, and adding this, this, and this, though there are many more one could choose from. Deleting accurate text is not the way to go.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:39, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- The first option would of course be the best, if a citation that supported the claim could be found, as that would solve all problems. I worry about the second solution though since that seems to be simply reversing what used to be weasel terms into concrete statement of fact, again not supported by citations because we don't have a secondary source that has done a review of primary sources. Really, I think finding a source that directly supports the claims we're making is the only way to go, and if we don't have sources, we should take it out. This is a WP:V issue more than a WP:BLP issue, though there is always some overlap. --causa sui (talk) 15:34, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
"Alleged" conections
I renamed this section from "Connections to terrorism" to "Alleged connections to terrorism". Since al-Alawki is a U.S. citizen who has not been convicted in court of any terrorism-related crime, I eventually came to the conclusion that jihad (holy struggle) against America is binding upon myself just as it is binding upon every other able Muslim as such. In the future, I will be adding more such qualifiers to the article as well, where I find they are appropriate. causa sui (talk) 16:25, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- "Ethically" obligated? Why? He has been identified by the Chair of the U.S. House Subcommittee on Terrorism Assessment as "Terrorist" No. 1 in terms of risk to the U.S. As a result of his having been identified as such, he is on U.S. kill lists. We routinely identify people on FBI terrorism lists, for example, as terrorists. And people such as the 9/11 hijackers, who have not been convicted in a court of law, as terrorists. Your "standard" is a personal one, and doesn't reflect Wiki policies and approaches.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- As I understand it, the reason journalists accept as part of editorial integrity the concept that they should refer to people accused of crimes as "suspects" who only "allegedly" did what the government said they did is that it is understood that what is written in news print can bias future jurors or even general political opinion about the case, unfairly swinging results one way or another before the accused has had his constitutionally protected "day in court". al-Awlaki, however reprehensible we may find his political opinions and actions, will likely never get his day in court -- which I think intensifies the necessity for this kind of editorial restraint. causa sui (talk) 05:14, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- What is it with you, Causa sui? Quoting you: …“we are ethically obligated to refer to allegations against him”… (my emphasis). You also state that you “will be adding more such qualifiers to the article”. This U.S. citizen (that’s quite unfortunate) stated as follows:
| “ | I eventually came to the conclusion that jihad against America is binding upon myself just as it is binding upon every other able Muslim.” | ” |
- That quote was from Reuters. You can listen to al-Awlaki threaten this in his own voice here in this CNN segment.
- I dunno; it seems that if the alleged voice of an alleged CNN report where U.S. security analysts allegedly said the voice is that of al-Awlaki (you can watch al-Awlaki speak in English here), and if these words, where one might allege could be interpreted by the ear as matching the alleged transcript where he threatens jihad against America, then it seems prima facia evidence that he is—you know—dabbling with this *terrorism stuff* (index and middle fingers of both hands doing that “quotey”-thing).
- Now, you can throw all your “alleged” stuff to no end, but when the Chair of the U.S. House Subcommittee on Terrorism Assessment as "Terrorist" No. 1 in terms of risk to the U.S., it is perfectly well established has “Connections to terrorism.” That is sort of a Well, Duh fact. There will likely never be some “U.S. Court” that will convict him (seemingly the only thing in your book that “proves” anything) because there is presidential and U.S. Security Council approval to bomb him out of his damned sandals. If al-Awlaki is blown to smithereens, I supposed that will liberate you to jump up and down all over Misplaced Pages claiming that al-Awlaki’s “terrorism thingy” will forever be just unproven *allegations*.
- Methinks the Chair of the U.S. House Subcommittee on Terrorism Assessment has his finger on the pulse of the facts here better than a volunteer contributor to Misplaced Pages known as Causa sui. I really do hope you don’t edit against consensus here on this article. I’m not too tempted at this point to really study this article and look at the grief Epeefleche has to endure to mollify one Causa sui. I hope I don’t have to wade too deep into this turd pit to keep you acting like WP:COMMONSENSE means anything. Greg L (talk) 19:55, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- That allegations against anyone, particularly a living person, should be called just that, is fundamental Misplaced Pages policy. That the chair of a House committee, a US president, or even a court call or convict someone as a terrorist is not enough for us to say in Misplaced Pages's voice that someone is a terrorist. What is necessary is a (near) universal consensus of (reliable) sources, a lack of serious dispute as to factual accuracy. This condition is not satisfied here, as Glenn Greenwald says "it's far from clear that he has transgressed the advocacy line into violent action.". Articles like this one are precisely what WP:BLP was designed to cover. By the way, the major reason journalists use "alleged" etc prior to convictions is simply that not using it exposes them and their publisher to lawsuits.John Z (talk) 00:00, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- Gosh, it would be quite nice if you read again what the issue is about before weighing in on a thread. This isn’t about “calling Anwar al-Awlaki a ‘terrorist’ ”, (no proper encyclopedia would do such a thing); the dispute originated over the title of a section of the article originally titled “Later life, and connections to terrorism”. I find it the height of absurdity when the original title gets a qualifier of *alleged* connections (“Later life, and alleged connections to terrorism”). It’s absurd given that al-Awlaki has publicly stated that he has declared a personal jihad against America (hmmm… seems like an objective connection to me). “Instead of reviewing al-Awlaki’s connections to terrorism, let’s review his *alleged* connections to terrorism.” I don’t personally have much a problem over such a minor detail as an unnecessary “alleged” equivocation inserted into a section title. Such an edit, among many others, is however, highly instructive as to who might be the actual POV-pushers here (and have difficulty logically parsing English). I’m keeping an eye on what going on here. Greg L (talk) 00:54, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- A number of his connections to terrorism are admitted. If we add alleged, wouldn't we then have to say "connections and alleged connections"? I'm just saying. This could be reductio ad absurdum. I think "connections" covers within it "those that are alleged, those that are admitted, and those that are not admitted but as to which there is a (near) universal consensus of (reliable) sources". Or, then again, we could put all that in the title. Might look pretty.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- Spot on, Oh. That sort of thought was in my mind but I couldn’t make the stars of the logic line up in order to type anything cogent. Exactly. Keep it simple. The “alleged” is insertium bullonium. Greg L (talk) 04:12, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- Epeefleche, if they are not admissions of guilt, I think it unlikely they would be enough to support "connections to terrorism", which can suggest criminal conduct or foreknowledge. What do you have in mind? Saying I am carrying on a personal jihad against America or something like "911 was a good thing" or knowing terrorists etc is not enough. Many of the statements on the talk page seem to me to not be very consistent with wikipedia practice and policy, which is why I commented above, in support of "alleged connection." Right now the most serious other problem I see is the unopposed implication, supported by a badly written passage in an NYT article, that the US government has the legal authority to order the assassination of a US citizen, a position which is likely still a minority view; it certainly was a fringe minority view a few decades ago. This is a major part of his notability, and the controversy belongs in the lead.John Z (talk) 05:07, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- We are getting way off target, but yes, you are correct, a few decades ago that was a minority view. In the time of stumbling-bumbling-I'm-ordering-no-assassinations-Gerald-Ford, to be exact. That changed post-9/11, though. No longer the case. BTW, WP is built on badly written RS passages -- you know the mantra, verifiability -- not truth.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:19, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- I appreciate your honesty, but if you mean to be carrying on a referendum against core policies, this article is decidedly not the place to do it. --causa sui (talk) 15:11, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- We are getting way off target, but yes, you are correct, a few decades ago that was a minority view. In the time of stumbling-bumbling-I'm-ordering-no-assassinations-Gerald-Ford, to be exact. That changed post-9/11, though. No longer the case. BTW, WP is built on badly written RS passages -- you know the mantra, verifiability -- not truth.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:19, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- Epeefleche, if they are not admissions of guilt, I think it unlikely they would be enough to support "connections to terrorism", which can suggest criminal conduct or foreknowledge. What do you have in mind? Saying I am carrying on a personal jihad against America or something like "911 was a good thing" or knowing terrorists etc is not enough. Many of the statements on the talk page seem to me to not be very consistent with wikipedia practice and policy, which is why I commented above, in support of "alleged connection." Right now the most serious other problem I see is the unopposed implication, supported by a badly written passage in an NYT article, that the US government has the legal authority to order the assassination of a US citizen, a position which is likely still a minority view; it certainly was a fringe minority view a few decades ago. This is a major part of his notability, and the controversy belongs in the lead.John Z (talk) 05:07, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- Spot on, Oh. That sort of thought was in my mind but I couldn’t make the stars of the logic line up in order to type anything cogent. Exactly. Keep it simple. The “alleged” is insertium bullonium. Greg L (talk) 04:12, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- A number of his connections to terrorism are admitted. If we add alleged, wouldn't we then have to say "connections and alleged connections"? I'm just saying. This could be reductio ad absurdum. I think "connections" covers within it "those that are alleged, those that are admitted, and those that are not admitted but as to which there is a (near) universal consensus of (reliable) sources". Or, then again, we could put all that in the title. Might look pretty.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- Gosh, it would be quite nice if you read again what the issue is about before weighing in on a thread. This isn’t about “calling Anwar al-Awlaki a ‘terrorist’ ”, (no proper encyclopedia would do such a thing); the dispute originated over the title of a section of the article originally titled “Later life, and connections to terrorism”. I find it the height of absurdity when the original title gets a qualifier of *alleged* connections (“Later life, and alleged connections to terrorism”). It’s absurd given that al-Awlaki has publicly stated that he has declared a personal jihad against America (hmmm… seems like an objective connection to me). “Instead of reviewing al-Awlaki’s connections to terrorism, let’s review his *alleged* connections to terrorism.” I don’t personally have much a problem over such a minor detail as an unnecessary “alleged” equivocation inserted into a section title. Such an edit, among many others, is however, highly instructive as to who might be the actual POV-pushers here (and have difficulty logically parsing English). I’m keeping an eye on what going on here. Greg L (talk) 00:54, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Images of 9/11 hijackers
Currently, the article contains two very large images of 9/11 hijacker Nawaf al-Hazmi and 9/11 hijacker Khalid al-Mihdhar bracketing a discussion of al-Alawki's alleged connections to terrorism. This is a bit less concrete, but I believe that the inclusion of these large images with captions further inciting suspicion unfairly biases the reader against the subject by juxtaposing discussion of the subject with known terrorists as universally hated as the 9/11 hijackers themselves. If we are supposed to hate the subject, his own deeds should stand on their own, rather than resting on guilt by association. causa sui (talk) 16:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- The pictures conform with MOS:IMAGES. 9/11 is somewhat notable. AA's connection with the hijackers has been widely reported in RSs. The pictures' captions carefully explain the relevance of the pictures. The discussion of the hijackers and AA is supported by RS refs--and many more of the same ilk are available, if deemed necessary. Everything points to inclusion as-is. The only reason I can imagine for deletion is POV of the deleting editor overriding Wiki standards.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:04, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- The picture does conform with the style guideline, though that is not my objection; nor is the notability of 9/11, which is not under dispute; nor is any mind-reading about my intentions you may wish to engage in a topic of much interest to me, or anyone else interested in discussing how to improve the article. The problem, as I see it, is that images of the hijackers might be less relevant to the article subject than just about anything else related to his life, such as say, the place of his birth. The reason the pictures are included is to emphasize the connection and remind everyone what a bad guy the subject is. That's not the kind of business we should be engaged in. causa sui (talk) 05:17, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Saaay! I never thought of it that way, Causa sui. For instance, there is this scruffy-looking photo of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed right smack in the middle of our September 11 attacks article. Talk about POV-pushing! Clearly, the only possible point of using such a photograph in that article is to remind readers that terrorists are often 18–36 year-old men of middle-eastern descent (and look like hairy monsters when rousted out of bed at 3:00 am) and amounts to so much POV-pushing by—you know—showing reality.
<dripping facetiousness>There is no other possible explanation, is there, Causa sui? I utterly reject the notion that it is a *simple* matter of using encyclopedic photos to illustrate the subject in question.</dripping facetiousness>. Here are some substitutes for you to choose from. ;·) Greg L (talk) 05:42, 13 April 2010 (UTC)P.S. The preceding post was clearly satirical in nature and was not intended to make people with asinine suggestions feel poopy about themselves as a person. Greg L (talk) 05:50, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
P.P.S. As for two very large images, try adjusting your preferences setting; there is no pixel-width specification on those two pictures. (Sheesh) Greg L (talk) 05:56, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- @Causa -- After admitting that what you first described as "very large images", and then again as "large images", which suggested to me at least that you were objecting to their size, you now agree that they conform with the wiki size/style guideline. You articulate your objection at this point as "images of the hijackers might be less relevant to the article subject than just about anything else related to his life, such as say, the place of his birth". Really? How in the world do you reach that conclusion? Not, I'm just guessing here, by reading the 100,000+ wiki hits that one arrives at by doing a search of "Awlaki 9/11 hijackers", and the 30,000+ that one arrives at by doing a search of "Awlaki 'September 11' hijackers". That's just the sort of baseless assertion that erodes assumptions of good faith. I expect more from a sysop.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:11, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Saaay! I never thought of it that way, Causa sui. For instance, there is this scruffy-looking photo of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed right smack in the middle of our September 11 attacks article. Talk about POV-pushing! Clearly, the only possible point of using such a photograph in that article is to remind readers that terrorists are often 18–36 year-old men of middle-eastern descent (and look like hairy monsters when rousted out of bed at 3:00 am) and amounts to so much POV-pushing by—you know—showing reality.
Regarding edit 355656180 re: Education
On April 12, 2010, according to an ongoing investigation, it was discovered that Awlaki was educated in the United States with taxpayers money.
Should this not be integrated into the Early Life section? While it is information gained through a current investigation, it pertains solely to his early education, and the fact itself is not part of his current status. I also do not feel it is entirely neutral in tone, or at the very least puts more focus on where his scholarship money came from than on how he obtained it. Trorbes (talk) 03:07, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- The "with taxpayers money" bit is definitely not good WP:STYLE. I'm a bit embroiled with more serious issues right now (see above) but based on your comments you certainly have my blessing to rework that bit.:-) causa sui (talk) 15:22, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
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