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Changes

Five important explanations about the article:

• We have to edit only what the reference says. One reference, one number.

• In 2004, the Second Intifada was not over. Besides, it is easier to include all those years of Israeli casualties by Palestinian terrorism in a single topic (including 2005-08 period, when terrorism decreased for Intifada's end, but Palestinian violence remain, at least until Gaza war broke out).

• An Haaretz article says that between may 2008 and may 2009 (last Yom Hazikaron period), 133 Israeli soldiers and civilians died in the course of military service or as civilian casualties of hostile activity. However, according to a reliable source as B'Tselem (until 2008) or Jewish Virtual Library (until 2009), Palestinian terrorism killed only 12 Israelis (military and civilians). In other words, 121 Israeli security forces members did not died in that year for terrorism or wars. I calculated that approximately half (maybe little less) of those 22,570 24,293 Israelis who perished in total, were not killed by Arabs, terrorists or enemy soldiers, but fell doing their duty services in different manners.

• The complete name of Yom Hazikaron is Fallen Soldiers and Victims of Terrorism Remembrance Day, so those 22,570 24,293 fallen Israelis who are remembered are not just soldiers, but all fatal victims of terrorism in Israel too (whose majority are civilians).

• Many Israelis were killed during terrorist fatal attacks in 1970s and 1980s decades, usually for PLO attempt. For example, the worst terrorist attack suffered by Israel (more than 38 dead) didn't happen during an Intifada, but in a 1978 attack perpetrated by a Palestinian woman from Lebanon; as many (26 dead), many (11 dead), many (6 dead) many (27 dead) others important attacks (12 dead). Those are not included in the casualties of this article (and are just a few examples).

PD: I apologize if I made a grammatical mistake. I'm not an English-speaker (I'm from Argentina). Thanks.

Hello. I didn't change much, the only meaningful revert was changing "1860" to 1948. The source does not say 1860, and at the time there was no military or even militia to protect Zionist settlers. The militant/jewish-self defense forces didn't develop until well into the 1930s, and I couldn't find any numbers for the casualties. As far as I know less than ~500 etzel, lechi, etc were killed up until the civil war, but this is just an estimation and I don't have a source confirming. the coastal road massacre is the most recent "big" terror attack, but the Jaffa Road bus bombings is considered to be part of a single campaign and that killed 50+. also, it is said 100+ civilians were killed through a series of single bombings by arab legions during the 1948 war (i.e, one act kills 100 civilians) independent of the massacres. this was most likely during the siege of jerusalem, where 2,500 civilians died. but then there was no definitive "terrorist" label, so it is easily debatable.

I hope this was helpful, let me know if there any more disputes! Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:45, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

• My only hard objection is that Norman Finkelstein is a very polemic professor. In fact, most people say he is an Holocaust denier and Shabak agents prohibited him to enter Israel and he was declared a "non-desirable" person by Israeli authorities (you can see it on the news). I'm telling you this because a read a book which says that just during the 1966-67 period before Six Days War broke out (when Fedayeen violence increased notably), Arab incursions inside Israeli territory killed at least 400 people (both military and civilians), while Finkelstein source says that during 1956-67 only died 132 Israelis.

• It is true that in 1860 there was no Jewish defense force, but the first one of this force appeared in 1907 and 1909 with Bar-Giora and Hashomer guards, while the Haganah was created in 1920 as the first organized and massive Jewish paramilitary force. On the other hand, your estimation about Jewish militias casualties is really credible. In Menachem Begin's book Rebellion in the Holy Land, he made a list with all Irgun fallen members since 1931 until 1948 (including all those killed during Israeli Independence war)... and the number was approximately 350. Fallen combatants of Lehi and Haganah (including Palmach) in the period before 1947-48 war should not be so different from that number. However we can only estimate about this.

• I don't think that Israeli and Jewish victims of Arab legion or Arab militias attacks during 1948 war could be considered as a different type of casualties separated from the whole war. In fact, all civilians who died in 1947 and 1948 are included in those 7,800 Israeli war casualties.

• In Israel, 2006 Lebanon war is officially considered as a war. The main enemy was Hezbollah (whose military power and capabilities overcomes the Lebanese army) and it isn't a formal state, but this doesn't prevent from being considered a war. War in Afghanistan against Taliban and Al-Qaeda are not a fight against a state either, but US authorities didn't say that the war ended when Taliban government fell in December 2001. The same example could be applied for Iraq (Saddam Hussein regime fell on May 10 2003, but no one says Iraq war ended then). In 21 century, most wars didn't nor will be fought between formal states.

• I have a request: You seem to be a serious and intelligent editor in this issue. Could you search some casualty list of Israelis who died during terrorist attacks in the 70s? I think this list will clarify the death circumstances of more than 9,000 Israelis.

Thanks for your time —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.16.232.216 (talk) 21:02, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree Norman Fickelstein is hardly an objective history but unfortunately he is considered to be a "reliable" source. His writings on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is rather prolific. His gushing support for [[Hezbollah and Hamas is morally idiotic, but Noam Chomsky and many other Israeli historians are also supportive of the organization. Chomsky is frequently cited in the Six Day War and 1982 Lebanon War. Fickelstein claimed "132" Israelis died based on the estimation of 1 Israeli died per month (132/12=11 months). Unfortunately, Israel does not have an extensive list for casualties between 1950-1967 so really all the numbers whether they be from Benny Morris or Fickelstein are merely an opinionated estimation by the author. As a compromise perhaps we could put a range of 132 - 400 or average it out (266). If you can find the name of the book you read and hopefully the page number than we could get rid of Fickelstein.

The amount of people killed between 1860-1918 was very marginal compared to the later years at least according to records. It is more accurate to simply put the number at 1948 since the 95% of all deaths started from then. If it pleases you I can simply create a new graph, perhaps "1860-1947." The real problem is more "settlers" did from inter-fighting with the Arab residents, or casualties from the British-Ottoman The 350 Irgun killed is included in the Palestine Civil War stats. The majority of Jewish casualties were simply part of the overall Sinai and Palestine Campaign during WWI. Nearly 80,000 British soldiers were killed in Palestine alone, and many more Ottomans were killed or wounded as well. The rest of the Zionist casualties died when the Ottomans banned Zionists and expelled a lot of them to Egypt where they remained up until the six day war (~45,000 Jews lived in Egypt I think.) I can try and create a section but I don't think it would be honest to include the ~100 KIA Jewish Legion casualties from the Palestine campaign, even though many would later become leaders in the Zionist movement such as Ze'ev Jabotinsky. Unfortunately a lot of the history about the Jewish presence in Palestine has been rewritten or lost in Palestine revisionism. Academia has spent a good 20 years minimalizing the importance of the region for the Jews while romanticizing the Arab presence as a victim to "imperialism."

The casualties for the Palestine Civil War and 1948 Arab-Israeli war are separate.

The 2006 Lebanon war was a "war" officially but not considered to be part of the major six wars. In comparison to conflicts waged by US and British forces in Iraq (Operation Crescent Wind) it is truly irrelevant. Merely a year after the 2006 Lebanon "war", US/Iraqi forces a waged a a nearly identical battle as far as death and destruction is concerned - though its representation in the media was marginal and no one dare draw parallels between US soldiers and Nazis (unlike Israelis) in the mainstream media. This is why I say the 2006 Lebanon War was not a "war" in the sense of all other wars fought, but merely a product of the overall post-Arab/Israeli War. I personally believe the conflict was simply an extension general Arab foreign policy, and even though Iran is not Arab, Syria is and most of Hezbollah's weapons are supplied of Syria. Anyways, just to be clear Lebanon 2 is not considered to be part of the "major" wars just as Operation Crescent Wind is not considered to be a a war independent of the greater Afghanistan War.

I will make a new graph detailing "terrorist incidents 1967-1989" as they are part of they ~1700+ civilians killed (1,000+ killed between 2000-2006) however the majority of civilians killed were from actual wars. The ~900+ killed in the revolts of the 1920s, 30s, 40s are not included.

I'll make some time for this article but I'm always trying to build a similar article here. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:05, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

• I agree with you at all, except one thing: I just noticed that Israel also considers as a war the Operation Peace for Galilee (1982 Lebanon war) and this war was not fought against a state, but mainly against PLO combatants. Neither this war was strictly part of the conflict between Israel and the Arab states, but against Palestinian non-state organizations. For this reasons, I don't see any impediment to accept Israel's classification of 2006 Lebanon as a war. What do you think?

• By the way, the book I told you is in Spanish and I do not trust too much in it, but neither I do in Norman Finkelstein.

• I also noticed that organizations such as B'Tselem and even Israeli authorities themselves consider police officers killed in action as part of military or security forces casualties, when we know that the police is a civilian force, not a military one (except the Border Police, which it's considered in Israel as part of IDF). For example, in March 2009 two police officers were killed in a shooting attack near Massua in the northern Jordan Valley by Palestinian terrorists. How would you describe this casualties? civilian or military? I included them with civilian casualties (Gaza war-present), while B'Tselem probably would have included with the military one. And this is just an example. Do you think we should clarify that?

• I suppose that fallen Jewish volunteers from Palestine who fought in the British army or the Jewish Brigade in World War II are also included in those 22,000+ soldiers killed since 1860. The same thing happens with Palestinian Jews who fought during World War I, like Jewish Legion veterans you talked about.

Greetings--190.16.232.216 (talk) 00:26, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

1982 Lebanon war involved Syria. In fact, the Lebanon War was merely part of the greater Lebanon Civil War. The majority of Palestinian/Arab casualties occurred independent of the IDF, though a considerable amount were killed by the Israeli-backed Christian militias. The Lebanon War is considered to be a major war simply based on the sheer death involved. Nearly 700 Israeli soldiers killed out of 60,000 that served. That's 3,500 American soldiers killed in comparison to the Iraq War (300,000 initial invasion) if my math is correct. So it was rather devastating, and it was the first enemy Israel faced that had the training of a sovereign military and the tactics of a terrorist organization. Also, the media was highly invested in this war, and criticisms of the IDF was painful and hampered Israel's image in the war. The PLO managed to turn the media against Israel, and even today many of the myths like Israel targeted non-military objectives inconsistent of the realities continues to circulate. And the myth that Israel broke the cease-fire with the PLO, when in reality the PLO intentionally engaged in controlled-cease fires to bait Israel into a war and then see it condemned by the international community. In contrast to the 2006 war, which was more consistent with the Gaza War than anything else. Lebanon itself was simply in the background and the majority of casualties, including Lebanese civilians, happened in Hezbollah-controlled areas of southern Beirut.

Israel considered armed combatants whether they be police officers or soldiers to be "military." Civilians are considered to independent of the war effort. Soldiers on leave or exercising their civilian rights are considered to be civilians. For example, many soldiers were killed in bus suicide attacks, but they were tallied as civilians since they were not active combatants nor were they engaging in belligerency. The Jewish fighter casualties as part of WWI were reported as independent of the Israeli war. So the hundreds of British Jews killed were merely casualties of the British army. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:07, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

• I understand you perfectly, but let me ask you something: wikipedia should considers your criteria (which of course is very interesting and credible) in order to define an engagement as war or should be considered the Israel's criteria? until that question be answered, I think we should limit ourselves to Israel's considerations about their casualties and engagements: officially, 2006 Lebanon was a war.

• I was wrong about those 400 Israelis who died in the 60s. I don't know what I was reading... the book that I saw, says literally this:

desde 1965 a mayo de 1967, habían muerto 11 israelíes

In English: since 1965 until May 1967, 11 Israelis had died (talking about violence before Six Days war broke out)

I don't know how I could commit such mistake, in fact, in no part of the book the number "400" is written. Probably I miss confused with another thing. Look for yourself, I found that the book is on the Web.

• Soldiers on leave or exercising their civilian rights are considered to be civilians

That's what you and me think (and what international law says), but not what B'Tselem considers about Second Intifada casualties (look at this). Remember that we wrote in the table that all Israeli security forces members killed according to B'Tselem, are part of the "military casualties", although many of them were killed (for example) in suicide attacks against buses.

• WWII Jewish fighters from Palestine were not British citizens and it would be helpful to know if they were counted as part of those 20.570 soldiers who gave their lives for the state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.16.232.216 (talk) 02:44, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

• All right. Like I said, the statistics between 1948-1967 are heavily disputed. israel played down the casualties unless it was politically significant or a justification to war. it is likely many casualties simply went unreported. The problem with the statistics is that in one year - say, 1956, 200 israelis were killed, but in the other years hardly anyone were killed. Just like the intifada, where 300 were killed in a single year purely from suicide bombings, and then the next year there would be calm. B'Tselem often conflicts with officially Israel reports, and as of late their research tends to follow almost identically the palestinian narrative. B'Tselem's methodology is questionable, and as far as I know they refuse to release their official method of intelligence gathering. Ultimately the IDF is far more meticulous. B'Tselem dubiously managed to issue casualties listings for the Gaza War a week after it ended, and it took Israel 6 months. The reason? Because Israel investigated the names, ages, female/male, location, etc. B'Tselem merely parroted the Gaza leadership propaganda. I don't consider independent though clearly others. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:27, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

• You are right, in all issues. I'll try to add some 70s terrorist incidents to the list you began writing. Very good job, by the way.--190.16.232.216 (talk) 21:12, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Israelis killed abroad

Israel also counts as a victim of terror every Israeli citizen killed in a terrorist attack against their embassies or diplomatic representation abroad. However, I don't know if Israeli authorities count also an Israeli killed in foreign soil whose assassination has nothing to do with his Israeli or Jewish identity: for example, an Israeli tourist man killed by stabbing during a robbery in Bolivia.--190.16.232.216 (talk) 03:11, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think an Israeli being killed during a robbery could be considered a victim of an Israeli war. EuroPride (talk) 13:51, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, definitely doesn't count.

What about Mossad agents killed abroad during an operation? I'm sure that there are a few cases... Maybe Mossad's Web page says something about it. There must be some way to find this information, for example, I read a book (Victor Ostrovsky's By way of deception which explains at least two cases of Mossad agents killed in Europe).--190.16.232.216 (talk) 02:27, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

The overall numbers in the beginning says dead includes mossad agents/shin bet. I know a mossad agent was captured in Africa and fed to aligators (true story), and another mossad agent was killed trying to rescue Ron Arad (pilot). Wikifan12345 (talk) 03:35, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Casualties during the British occupation of Palestine

Why is this included? This article states it is about casualties Israel has suffered during war, and these deaths occurred before the State of Israel was established. 188.221.145.66 (talk) 08:47, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Notice "casualties prior to Israel's independence"? Those deaths occurred in the context of WWII and White Papers, which played a role in the riots, massacres in Palestine, etc. Also, those ships were sunk BY the British and typically defensive actions by whatever Jewish militant groups existed at the time. Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:07, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Israel counts all their war/conflict deaths (24,293) since 1860, when the first Jews established outside the Old City walls of Jerusalem (that's even before Zionist colonization began in 1880). So, it is obvious that Zionist organizations members who perished in Palestine by conflict with Arabs and British occupation forces are counted by the state as fallen soldiers. I heard when, during a Yom Hazikaron act organized by the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, were named all people fallen from clandestine organizations (such as Lehi, Etzel, Haganah, etc) who died fighting for Israel's independence, including those who perished before 1948 (an example: Shlomo Ben-Yosef, hanged by the British in 1938).--190.16.232.216 (talk) 02:39, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, thanks for answering my question. 188.221.145.66 (talk) 09:52, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Labor accidents and disabled soldiers

It seems that Israel considers inside those 24,293 dead people all the thousands of security forces members who died by traffic or work accidents and disabled veterans whose disabilities contributed to their deaths. It is a strange criteria... for example, if we applied this conception in Argentina, more than 1,500 people would be honored as fallen soldiers of Falklands war, because the number of veterans who died from their wounds or suicide for their war's traumas (and the complete abandon of their nation) are much higher than all 649 soldiers killed by the British during the 1982 war. I guess something similar would happen with many veterans of Vietnam war who died on American soil. Any way, the Israeli authorities have their methods and I'm nobody to judge them.--190.16.232.216 (talk) 03:33, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

The haaretz article says the 133 killed in one example included those killed in traffic accidents. But the MFA does not say this applies to the 22,000+ killed. Israel does not count suicides as far as I know. Remember, Israel only has a population of 7,000,000 with a activated military of 150,000 say 24,000+ dead is a lot. From the numbers we have on the article (which is not comprehensive since no definite count exists) the total comes to ~17,100 killed in war/conflict, and not traffic/work/crime.

And that does not include the 500+ killed in massacres prior to the riots, or those killed fighting for the british, etc. Wikifan12345 (talk) 03:53, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

So how do you explain that suddenly Israeli authorities add to the annual fatalities of 2009 all those 120+ people killed by traffic and labor accidents? Is there any way to clarify that we don't know really if that criteria is applying to all dead people since 1860 or 1948? (120*60=7,200... seems credible if our numbers give 17,000). Because in the source I didn't see that the criteria, which applies to May 2008-May 2009, doesn't count for the rest of the years also.--190.16.232.216 (talk) 04:26, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

We cannot conclusively say the final ~22,000+ includes soldiers killed in traffic accidents. Israel did not keep a very explicit record of casualties between 1948-1960s casualties. most of the records are still sealed so we wont know for a long time. i say we remove the "traffic accidents" link since i cant find anything directly from the israeli government that states this. traffic accidents killed more israelis than war on an annual basis (about ~500 a year), so that's ~30,000 israelis killed in traffic since 1948. more israelis served in the military proportional to population from 1948-1970s than today. if israeli accounted traffic accidents as part of military deaths, the total number of casualties would be far more than 22,000. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:12, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me, I think Israel counts only those deaths related with traffic accidents from people who died while they were working for the military or the police.

BIASED

How on earth is this not biased? The page is littered with deeper explainations on the Israeli casualities and there are dozens of pictures of Israeli massacres, which is pretty bloated by itself, but there is no mention of Palestinian deaths. And who makes a list of casualities for a side in a conflict, anyway? 92.0.155.113 (talk) 22:31, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

If you want to contribute to wikipedia, I personally would be happy to help you writing a new article of Arab/Palestinian casualties of the conflict, based of course on reliable sources and the Palestinian National Authority's official information. But I'm only willing to CREATE something new, not DESTROYING something already created in order to hide a truth (as you are used to do). Anyway, I still can not understand how can be possible that an article, based only on numbers of Israelis killed and whose title is Israel casualties of war, could be "biased". Mathematics neither are biased nor have political preferences.--190.16.232.216 (talk) 23:22, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

There are plenty of articles for casualties in war. Israel/Pal arena is an overly-represented genre on wikipedia and I hope this article will allow us to delete or at least merge many of the unnecessary articles (such as every suicide bombing in friggin history). There is only one picture of an Israeli massacre, and that is from a crime scene. It might not be considered a massacre since I think the Palestinians might have been a memorial honoring the killer...I mean resister. :D Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:57, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

It's easy to understand why in this encyclopedia Israel/Pal arena has so much attention: Israeli-Palestinian confrontation is an overly-represented conflict in the entire world... in the media, in politics, in public opinion, in international forums, etc. Specially if we know that this conflict is nothing compared with other conflicts much worst in the number of deaths, wounded, destruction, population implicated, territorial size, economy, duration, intensity or politic impact... even for the Middle East region. However, I repeat my statement again: we don't have to delete correct information because is overly-represented, in any case we have to ADD new information about other conflicts or wars which are lower-represented. Those are wikipedia's principles and our challenge. Don't you think that?--190.16.232.216 (talk) 04:33, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Uh, there's a gallery full of memorials. 92.0.155.113 (talk) 13:37, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Palestinian violence

• Mr. Wikifan, your analysis is incorrect because takes two different sources which explain the same period of Palestinian violence, but differ slightly in the numbers, in order to talk about different periods. On one hand, B'Tselem says what is the number of Israelis killed by Palestinians between September 29 2000 (Second Intifada outbreak) and December 26 2008 (one day before Gaza war broke out). But this is not the period of 2nd Intifada, because it ended in 2005 or late 2004, not in 2008. But it's easier to include the years 2000-2008 as the same period of violence against Israel because almost 95% of Israeli killings happened during Second Intifada's attacks (2000-2005). On the other hand, Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs says what is the number of Israelis and foreigners killed by Palestinian terror attacks (including 18 Israelis killed abroad) between 2000 and today (March 2010). And the difference in the period of one source and another is just for the Israelis killed during 2009 (only 6) and 2010 (2, if we include the Thai victim). Besides, B'Tselem official list is already included in the article's table, while we didn't the same with Israeli Ministry list (we should do it in the "Palestinian war" section, which doesn't talk only about 2nd Intifada).

• I don't know how was your calculation, but victims of 1920-1999 (2,500) and 2000-2010 (1,000) add up 3,500.

• There is no such thing as a "Palestinian war" (who says terrorist attacks are a war?). For me, the most correct expression is Palestinian violence, because is more general, impartial and correct.--190.16.232.216 (talk) 06:00, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

• 1920-1999 figures are not exclusive to Palestinian nor are they comprehensive. Like I proved before, the Israeli government did not seriously document casualties until the 1960s. The estimate of 4,500 is based on the fact that 1262 were killed in general Arab violence or "terror" victims between 1948-1999. This does not explicitly include all those killed in fedayeen attacks, which amounts to 1,700+ between 1951-1967 alone. So the 3,500 includes those killed fedayeen and the 2nd intifada, and the 1,200+ killed in unspecified Palestinian violence. Am I making sense here? These numbers do not include the how many thousand Israeli/Jews killed prior to 1948.

• The "Palestinian War" title is more accurate because the conflict was more like a war rather than a series of episodic "political violence." The political violence tag is a largely new phenomenon and news coverage up until 2007 rarely pictured the war as "political" any less than the Iraqi insurgency is "political." Unfortunately, the Palestinian terrorist/militant article is dubiously titled "Palestinian political violence" and hopefully one day it will be changed. The Jewish Virtual Library refers to the conflict as the "Palestinian War" and that site is considered to be empirical. Israeli ministry of foreign affairs site frequently links to it. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:18, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

How do you know the Israeli Ministry list of fatality victims of Palestinian violence in 1948-1999 don't include also the Israelis killed during Fedayeen attacks. I didn't see in the source any separation between Palestinian terror attacks and Fedayeen incursions. On the contrary, despite the huge difference in the numbers of every source about 1950s attacks against Israel, I think Israeli authorities consider a Fedayeen action (both against civilians and soldiers) as a terrorist attack, just like a shooting, a stabbing or a suicide bombing.

I quote: From 1920 through 1999, a total of 2,500 residents of Mandatory Palestine and, since 1948, the State of Israel fell victims to hostile enemy action; in most cases, terrorist attacks

I really think Fedayeen attacks are included at least in the topic hostile enemy action.--190.16.232.216 (talk) 08:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Did you read what I wrote? The 2,500 is not comprehensive because over 1,700 died during the fadeyan attacks alone over a period of 10 years. The 3,500 includes those killed in fadeyan attacks, the 2nd intifada, and unspecified palestinian violence. We can't simply assume or infer what the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs is saying. If it is written ambiguously, we assume it is ambiguous. Could you response to the other paragraph about the Palestinian War? Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:24, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Why do you say that? According to this article's table, 1,700 Israelis didn't die during fedayen attacks over a period of ten years. In fact, over 1,700 people were killed in a period of 36 years (1951-1987). Besides, the only important difference of numbers between this article and the Israeli Ministry Foreign Affairs is only the period between 1951 and 1955. However, if 2,500 Israelis were killed between 1920 and 1999, doesn't sound too crazy that 1,700 of them were killed by fedayen, who were the main perpetrators of violence against Israel before islamic suicide bombings were developed in the 90s and 00s. Over 400 Israelis were killed by Palestinian violence between First Intifada (1987) and Second Intifada's outbreak (2000), another 1,700 were killed by fedayen since the Israel's establishment and First Intifada (1951-87) and 400 more were killed in other attacks. I think it's logic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.247.95.116 (talk) 11:32, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

We can not base ourselves on a source if we interpret it like we want, thinking with conjectures. About the "Palestinian war", I insist: I don't really think a campaign of terrorist attacks (mostly against civilians) could be called a "war" (besides, in that case terrorists caught wouldn't be criminals in jail, but prisoners of war who desearve a specific treaty according to Geneva convention, not a common trial). However, if you know about any reliable source which considers a war the Palestinian violence against Israelis, I won't have any objection to add it in the text. Greetings.--190.16.232.216 (talk) 00:44, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

There is no legal definition for "war." The Iraq War is considered a war, but Iraqi insurgents are not afforded the rights of a conventional army since they do not belong to a sovereign entity, nor are they part of state actor that is signatory to the G.C or specific treaty. Terrorists don't have the same rights as legal combatants. The conflict between 2000-2005 is framed as an overall war, similar to the Sri Lanka-Tamil war, India-Kashmir war, etc. It is not simply a series of general Palestinian violence against Israelis, but specific political movements acting in a way consistent with the modern characteristics of war. Jewish Virtual Library is a reliable source and considered very encyclopedic in nature. The math supports my original claims above for Israel casualties. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:27, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Concerns have been raised by uninvolved editors regarding the use of Jewish Virtual Library. I suggest that you take specific pages that you want to use to RS/N in the future and that you move to have the sources you are using now either confirmed at RS/N or find better sourcing. Unomi (talk) 18:01, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

References

1. Martin Gilbert (2005). The Routledge Atlas of the Arab-Israeli Conflict. Routledge. p. 58. ISBN 0415359015.
2. http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Modern+History/Israel+wars/The+Six-Day+War+-+June+1967.htm Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs
3. B'Tselem fatalities
4. Jewish Virtual Library
5. "Israeli traffic policeman shot dead". BBC. March 15, 2009. Retrieved March 15, 2009.
6. "Israeli man stabbed to death in La Paz". Jerusalem Post. January 26, 2010. Retrieved January 26, 2010.
7. "24,293 fallen soldiers and terror victims".
8. B'Tselem - Statistics - Fatalities
9. Victims of Palestinian Violence and Terrorism since September 2000
10. Fatal Terrorist Attacks in Israel Since the Declaration of Principles
11. "Terrorist was a PA officer". Jerusalem Post. February 11, 2010. Retrieved February 11, 2010.
12. http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=171296
13. Terrorism deaths in Israel - 1920-1999

The sources for the foiled suicide bombing attacks data give completely different data

Wikifan12345 has added figures for the number of foiled suicide bombing attacks per year based on data from Jewish Virtual Library (), a source that has been repeatedly criticized as a biased in favour of Israel at WP:RSN, and the "Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center" ( page 55), which seems to be an Israeli government-funded public diplomacy center.

At first glance, both of these sources are obviously anti-Palestinian and as such it would be in their interests to exaggerate the number of foiled attacks to make the Palestinians appear more violent and less peaceful than they actually are.

But that doesn't matter, because their figures are completely different!

Number of reported foiled attacks by year and source:

As you can see for yourself, these two sources give completely different figures -- 540% differences for one year.

This shows that both sources are so unreliable, their figures don't even basically match up and they can't be trusted. The figures should be removed from the article until proven reliable sources can be found. And any more data on foiled attacks should be carefully scrutinized since it is obviously being fabricated for propaganda reasons by some parties.

Regardless, this article is supposed to be about Israeli casualties anyway, and I don't see what foiled attacks have to do with casualties - by definition a foiled attack can't produce any casualties!

The information on the foiled plots is both irrelevant and completely unreliable. Removing it from this article is a no-brainer.

Factsontheground (talk) 10:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Jewish Virtual Library is a perfectly reliable source. The fact that the data is conflicting is unfortunate but not completely shocking since a lot of casualty information in I/P articles is highly disputed. I'm not sure how to proceed from there but to simply remove it all wholesale because two sources don't agree is absurd. Many wars and conflicts in the ME, especially among the Palestinians, give opposing ranges for stats. It is accepted that at least ~1,000+ suicide plots were foiled between 2000-2006. Since the IDF did not keep a comprehensive record of counter-terror operations, all we have is estimations from relevant sources. I don't think anyone is trying to exaggerate the number of foiled plots to make the Palestinians more violent. The reality is more than a thousand plots were foiled, probably more if we go way back to the early 1990s and count to 2010 (I know at least one bomb was prevented in Eilat this year). The only problem as you rightly state is we have two sources that disagree (somewhat) on specific plots. As a compromise we could possibly create 2 unique sub-categories listing the foiled attacks for the conflicting sources. In other words, add two tables labeled, "Foiled attacks per x", "Foiled attacks per y" similar to the graph you created above.

Also, I don't really understand how information is being "fabricated for propaganda reasons." Are you accusing users of promoting propaganda? I suggest you take a look at WP:CIV since the tone of your post is rather hostile. Thanks. Wikifan12345 (talk) 11:26, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

pro-Israel does not mean 'anti-Palestinian'. The source seems reliable here and certainly you won't find this success/failure on a pro-Palestinian site. Take the issue to RS noticeboard. --Shuki (talk) 13:57, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

The persistent bias in the numbers from JVL in this case seems to preclude that it is simply a matter of inaccurate data. The JVL clearly state that they are a public relations organization and as such should not be given as much credibility as The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center which, if nothing else, has military intelligence as its expertise. We could, perhaps, show a summary of the data of the JVL but we cannot give it undue weight given its stated mission and apparent lack of expertise in the matter. Unomi (talk) 15:17, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Again, JVL is a perfectly reliable source. Using it as a simple source for failed suicide bombing plots (which was barely covered in the israeli-palestinian conflict) is hardly undue. JVL is considered empirical for israeli/jewish issues, if you have a more balanced source feel free to provide it. But I really much object with FOTG disagreements, and I think this dispute has been blown way out of proportion. I/P arena is a very polarized genre on wikipedia and virtually every source, from Al-Jazeera to BBC, has a documented institutionalized political philosophy towards Israel. It is near impossible to find truly unbiased source everyone can agree on. Wikifan12345 (talk) 15:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

The thing is that TIaTIC is an Israeli source to start with. It is also a NGO specializing in military intelligence and it is actually in Israel. JVL is not a reliable source for anything but their opinion, that is the natural condition of a self described public relations organization. Like I said, I don't mind noting that JVL disputes those numbers but nor do I feel comfortable giving the impression that JVLs numbers are as notable or reliable as TIaTICs. Unomi (talk) 16:43, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

You should read up on WP:RS and other wiki guides. The fact that JVL or TIaTIC might be based in Israel is irrelevant. The fact that it is an NGO specializing in military intelligence is irrelevant. In fact, it adds even more credibility. Sources based in Israel are no less credible than sources based in the USA, Britain, or Australia. If we were to ban sources or information that were provided for by the US military (such as casualty statistics), we would be removing thousands of sources. Your dispute with JVL is purely your opinion. JVL is not an opinion sitee, it is run by a variety of experts and historians (such as Mitchell Bard). Like I said, it is considered to be an encyclopedia for Jewish and Israeli-related topics. JVL is not a public relations organizations or Israeli pimping site as you are clearing inferring. According to the wikipedia article it is linked to a variety of prestigious universities and has won various awards. It's nothing like Palestine Facts which arguable is more consistent with your opinions of JVL. Wikifan12345 (talk) 18:33, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Please take a moment to read what I actually wrote.

Regarding JVL http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/about/index.shtml The AMERICAN-ISRAELI COOPERATIVE ENTERPRISE (AICE) was established in 1993 as a nonprofit 501(c)(3), nonpartisan organization to strengthen the U.S.-Israel relationship ... One of AICE's principal objectives is to enhance Israel's image ... I am sure that it aims to be an encyclopedia, and I am sure that conservapedia does as well, the latter actually manages to provide verifiable references. Unomi (talk) 18:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

So what? This doesn't refute the facts I provided above. JVL is perfectly reliable and your criticism, while possibly valid, are simply your opinion

Concerns have been raised by uninvolved editors regarding the use of Jewish Virtual Library. Wikifan, I suggest that you take specific pages that you want to use to RS/N in the future and that you move to have the sources you are using now either confirmed at RS/N or find better sourcing. Unomi (talk) 20:48, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

If you have an issue with JVL, take it up at RS/N. JVL is perfectly reliable and is considered encyclopedic for Israel/Jewish information. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:45, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Fix

Since when were attacks on diplomatic missions 'casualities of war?' By that logic the Holocaust is an act of war. Also, I propose the removal of the memorial gallery. The article is also very biased compared to this one. SGeography (talk) 17:19, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

What? What does this have to do with the holocaust? Some might find that offensive. Attacks on diplomatic missions are part of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Those killed/wounded are considered casualties of the war. It is a grey area, but the Palestinians have projected their conflict with Israel on a variety of targets - including synagogues, , 1997 Empire State Building shooting, and dozens of other places. As far as the memorial gallery go - I don't see a problem with it honestly. Israel spends a lot of time on memorials and values the lives lost - it's part of their culture. I tried looking for Palestinian memorials but the most I could find was memorials honoring suicide bombers, and I don't think that would be appropriate for the Palestinian article. Also, could you clarify as to how this is biased? The article is sourced reliably. If you have specific issues feel free to start another section. Thanks. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:55, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

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