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Boldishness
I moved everything from the 'Legal background' into new article 'International law and Israeli settlements'. It's a copy/paste apart from a couple of named ref fixes. I added a temporary lead without attempting to comply with WP:LEAD and copied it into this article for the time being. If anyone would like to write a proper lead for the new article and copy it over here please go ahead. Sean.hoyland - talk 15:23, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
- ..and having re-read what I put in the lead for the split off article and copied over here, apparently I don't think that the Golan Heights exists. This is why I shouldn't write leads. Someone might like to fix that. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:36, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
New Section needed
I propose to add a new section called "International reaction to settlement" As of now there is lott of data indicating several countries take on the Israeli settlment. USA - U.S. slams Israel over new settlement activities link China - China criticizes new Israeli move on settlements link Britian - Britain: Israeli settlements are 'illegal' and 'obstacle' to peace link Egypt - Egypt criticizes Israel's settlement expansion link Brazil - Brazil leader urges freeze on Israeli settlements link —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cr!mson K!ng (talk • contribs) 21:32, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Total population of Settlements
Not sure what the correct total population of Israeli settlements is, but currently the article gives it as 400,000 in the West Bank and 280,000 in East Jerusalem (so a total of 680,000), but the BBC article footnoted as the source for this statement talks about a total of 500,000 so I think the figure needs looking at again —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.172.14.16 (talk) 10:59, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Violence
Not sure who put the tag on violence, but I have moved it to cover the whole section (Originally it was just covering Palestinians against settlers). The reason for this is the different sections under violence are in completely different styles and dont seem to balance (ie The Settlers section describes specific deaths and their circumstances whereas the Palestinian section is general without specific examples). As the writing style can evoke emotions (especially where specifics are used), the style should be the same in both sections. Clovis Sangrail (talk) 11:43, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Hi, Clovis. I see what you are talking about. I removed a duplicate section on Settler Violence from another part of this article and then copied it over to the section you are talking about since the language seems more neutral and factual.
- What do you think? Factsontheground (talk) 11:54, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Settler as a pejorative
The way this article is framed is arguable slanted. example. It misrepresents the reality as the "settler" status is clearly disputed. In other words, biased language is not help towards NPOV.
The "Palestinian violence against Israeli settlers" should be rewritten and allow a more comprehensive, fact-based section. "Background" contains incorrect casualty stats.
The "settler violence against Palestinians" is disproportionate and needs more RS.
Statements such as this are quite libelous: "Olive farming is a major industry and employer in the Palestinian West Bank and olive trees are a common target of settler violence."
There are over 400,000 Jewish residents of the West Bank. No doubt violence has occurred but I cannot find any documents proving olive trees are a "common target" of settler violence. It gives the false impression that olive trees are under attack.
MORE NPOV:
The Israelis built a system of bypass roads that allowed settlers to travel between Israel and the different settlements in relative safety, avoiding ambushes by Palestinians. These roads often encroached upon inhabited Palestinian areas, and areas under cultivation. Many dunam of olive trees, the means of livelihood of Palestinians were destroyed to build the roads. to allow expansion of settlements in populated areas, by settler vandalism, and in some cases, because the olive trees had served as cover for Palestinian terrorists.
The overwhelming majority of violence between the Jewish residents and Arab residents of the WB is sourced from the Palestinian camp, not the settlements. ~50 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli settlers over the past 10 years, and this was in the context of the 2nd intifada where palestinian attacks were quite frequent.
http://www.mideastweb.org/map_israel_settlements.htm
Also, is it just me or is this article really, really huge? Wikifan12345 (talk) 15:10, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- It would make it easier to answer your questions if you split your issues with this article up, perhaps even in to separate sections, instead of having one large block of text to reply to. Factsontheground (talk) 12:25, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Merge with Israeli settlements, Palestinians, and human rights
The Israeli settlements, Palestinians, and human rights page is a blatant POV fork and seems more like a sandbox of non-neutral POV by Factsontheground. Until recently, it was a legitimate redirect, by the editor removed that and recreated the duplicate material and to add more POV. --Shuki (talk) 20:10, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. Most of the information in that article is simply a regurgitation of content from this article. Israel articles are bloated enough as it is. Wikifan12345 (talk) 12:02, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, Shuki, but you seem to have a misunderstanding of what a so-called "POV fork" is. One of the main features of a POV fork is that they are "deliberately created to avoid neutral point of view guidelines". Israeli settlements, Palestinians, and human rights is simply a summary style article created as an extension of the eponymous section in this, the parent article.
- WP:POVFORK describes it as an example of what is not a POV fork:
Sometimes, when an article gets long (see Misplaced Pages:Article size), a section of the article is made into its own article, and the handling of the subject in the main article is condensed to a brief summary. This is completely normal Misplaced Pages procedure. The new article is sometimes called a "spinout" or "spinoff" of the main article; Misplaced Pages:Summary style explains the technique.
- The reason Israeli settlements, Palestinians, and human rights was created was to have a place to add extra material now that this article has reached ~90kb in size. It was NOT an exercise in POV-forking. Factsontheground (talk) 12:35, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
- Whether it was deliberate or not is irrelevant. Most of the information of the article could be easily merged into this one and they argument to keep it is clearly very weak. There already is too Israel articles and I can't see the justification for an essay-based topic. "Israel, the settlements, and the Palestinians" is not a straight definition like "Israeli settlements." It is vulnerable to user bias. Similar to Israel, the Palestinians, and the United Nations. Personally I think that article should go as well. Wikifan12345 (talk) 18:41, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
- Merging is not an option, since as you yourself noted above, this article is already too big. Factsontheground (talk) 23:00, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
- FoG, thanks for pointing out the problem with the 'human rights' article. It was "deliberately created to avoid neutral point of view guidelines". The article is one sided non-neutral POV fork. --Shuki (talk) 23:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
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