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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 190.25.80.226 (talk) at 02:16, 3 November 2009 (→Murder). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Spina bifida pic

IE is used in the modern world (Netherlands) only for children born with severe forms of this condition. It is absolutely appropriate to have it on the page. ► RATEL ◄ 23:18, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Murder

As Ratel said the only Netherlands is the only country where involuntary euthanasia is allowed. It is a fact that there at The Netherlands: euthanasia hasn't be decriminalized but it is still considered a murder although under certain circumstances unpunishable for the physicians.. 190.25.109.145 (talk) 05:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Your source does not back up what you are saying. I would suggest that you edit the Misplaced Pages version in your native tongue (there is a Spanish version for instance), because much of what you write is difficult to understand properly. ► RATEL ◄ 10:09, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

False Ratel, the source back up what I'm saying. See by yourself:

"...The Committee is well aware that the new Act does not as such decriminalize euthanasia and assisted suicide...The new Act contains, however, a number of conditions under which the physician is not punishable when he or she terminates the life of a person"

190.27.99.85 (talk) 15:27, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

And your point is .... ? ► RATEL ◄

What is exactly your question? 190.25.104.148 (talk) 02:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I already changed for the better the wording, based on the source. But Ratel has not answered yet. What is exactly his question? 190.25.192.2 (talk) 17:03, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Before I remove your edit again, I'm going to explain why. Firstly, if you want to make comments about the Groningen Protocol, please make it on the appropriate page, not in the lede paragraph to this article. And if you want to start a section in this article about involuntary euthanasia in the Netherlands, you can do that in a new subsection within the page, but again, not in the lede. Ok? ► RATEL ◄ 23:39, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not commenting the Groening protocol. In the modern world, euthanasia is not only a medical situation, but a legal situation. The Netherlands is just an example which I used because the article already refered to it. I made a correction, see the new look. 190.27.152.60 (talk) 00:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll try one more time. This article is ONLY about involuntary euthanasia in general. If you want to insert data about the Groningen Protocol or Euthanasia in the Netherlands then you must do that in the appropriate place. You cannot insert general comments about euthanasia or euthanasia in the Netherlands on this page. Ok? ► RATEL ◄ 01:24, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

But, you Ratel was the one who inserted data about Groningen Protocol, thus about euthanasia in the Netherlands, in the definition of this article. My edition goes on the legal point of view which is also part of the modern definition of ANY euthanasia. From the introduced legal point of view: involuntary euthanasia is just a case of euthanasia, Groningen Protocol is an example: it was based on the general Act on euthanasia. So far, as you can read, my edition refers to the Groningen Protocol in the same way your edition does, it means as an example; actually a relevant example, because it is perhaps the only real existing example of not-punishable involuntary euthanasia on the world. Then, see the new improvement of my edition. 190.25.97.110 (talk) 04:05, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

This page is not about "ANY" euthanasia and this is not the right place to make general comments about euthanasia. In addition, and without wishing to insult you, your command of English is poor and your sentences are malformed and difficult to interpret. Once again, I urge you to edit the Misplaced Pages version in your native tongue (home language). ► RATEL ◄ 04:11, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

1. Don't you understand that from the legal point of view which I introduced, involuntary euthanasia is a sub-case of euthanasia??

2. The sentences I put were taken almost literally from the source, as anybody can read above. Perhaps you don't understand the source, is it?. 190.25.97.110 (talk) 04:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm trying to understand your point here. If you want to say on the page "Most euthanasia is illegal" then this is the wrong page. Go say that at Euthanasia and the law. ► RATEL ◄ 05:33, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Seems that you Ratel realize that: in the modern world, thus in reality the concept and the definition of involuntary euthanasia are not separable from its medical point of view. Why dont' you realize that in the modern world, thus in reality the concept and definition of involuntary euthanasia are not separable from its legal point of view? or are you suggesting me that you're going to make another wiki-article called "Euthanasia and Medicine" and then you're going to remove here and to move there your edition which refers to "medical situations"? If so, I don't agree. 190.25.97.110 (talk) 07:08, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I really, really wish you'd stop editing the English wikipedia. Your edits are often nonsensical, incomprehensible, misplaced and tendentious. I hope other editors help me to revert your recent changes. You seem to ignore 3RR, I'm trying not to. ► RATEL ◄ 08:55, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

You Ratel are not giving any argument but you are just accusing. As any body can see,my edition is almost literally based on the source. Don't you undertsnad the source? Do you think that United Nations (the source) is nonsensical and tendentious? Therefore I asked for an editor assitance, please don't delete my edition until then. 190.25.99.55 (talk) 16:10, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I also had trouble understanding your wording. I would ask you to get consensus here before adding the content back to the page. --TeaDrinker (talk) 17:55, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

The wording is almost literally based on the source. Tell me what is exactly the point you don't understand so I can improve the thing. Because just deleting is not a help. 190.25.80.226 (talk) 01:08, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Since you really want to see this addition, why don't you wait until you get a consensus. Otherwise edit warring will get you blocked and no one will get to read what you want seen in the article. - 4twenty42o (talk) 01:11, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok. But realize that the guy who is deleting is not helping. Just telling the wording is wrong, when it is almost literally based on the source, that is blatant. Is it a valid reason to delete an edition that Ratel and TeaDrinker are unable to understand the source? perhaps they are unable to understand a legal concept. Why they don't answer what is exactly the point they don't understand? Until a consensus I will assume that the definition of involuntary euthanasia should not include its legal point of view but neither its medical point of view. Until a consensus please don't add any of those editions because they could be misplaced as Ratel suggests.

190.25.80.226 (talk) 01:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Tell us in simple words what information you are trying to add to the article. It seems to me that you are keen to say that involuntary euthanasia is murder except for instances when it is legal. Is that right? ► RATEL ◄ 01:41, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

ANY CHANGES YOU WANT TO MAKE should be discussed here for CONSENSUS. If you continue to edit war and POV push you may find yourself unable to edit. Please stop now. - 4twenty42o (talk) 01:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I demand the SAME TREATMENT GIVEN TO EVERYBODY, or do you prefer to violate the Constitution and the International Law, discriminating me??. If my editions need consensus to be published then also the editions made by the others, for example the edition made by Ratel. Therefore: let us discuss. 190.25.80.226 (talk) 02:16, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Answering Ratel: In the modern world, involuntary euthanasia is illegal everywhere. Involuntary euthanasia everywhere is defined as a crime, as a murder. But in the Netherlands, under certain conditions the physician is not punishable if he or she practices involuntary euthanasia. But it means euthanasia remains illegal. These are basic legal concepts. From the legal point of view there is a difference between legalizing euthanasia and declaring not punishable the euthanasia under specific conditions. This legal point of view is not separable from the definition of involuntary euthanasia. For example, it is a fact that if anybody practices an involuntary euthanasia in the Netherlands (the only real example on the modern world), then he or she will be prosecuted, unless he or she was a physician. But read by yourself the source:

"...The Committee is well aware that the new Act does not as such decriminalize euthanasia and assisted suicide...The new Act contains, however, a number of conditions under which the physician is not punishable when he or she terminates the life of a person"

Therefore, not only the medical point of view but also the legal point of view are not separable from the definition of involuntary euthanasia. 190.25.80.226 (talk) 02:16, 3 November 2009 (UTC)