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DDS dynamics? Huh?

Hello, could someone please explain DDS dynamics in the article, or find the appropriate article to link to? There isn't any article on DDS dynamics right now. Thank you. LovesMacs (talk) 19:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Oops! DDS = Dark Dune Spots. -BatteryIncluded (talk) 04:45, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Header

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge into Dark dune spots.

• Must specify in the introduction that: "the dark dune spots and spiders are possibly related phenomena, and some hypothesis treating them being external manifestations of the same phenomenon or different phases of a same process, have been suggested".
• Information available merits a significant section on Spiders alone. -- BatteryIncluded (talk) 02:45, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Merger proposal with Martian spiders because it is thought that the "spider webs" and the Martian dark dune spots may be related features caused by the same phenomena. In other words, it is evident that different researchers give different names to the same features. See: "NASA Findings Suggest Jets Bursting From Martian Ice Cap". Jet Propulsion Laboratory. NASA. August 16, 2006. Retrieved 2009-08-11. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 03:41, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Scientific sources to this:
1.- Kereszturi, A., ed. (2009), "POSSIBLE LIQUID-LIKE WATER PRODUCED SEEPAGE FEATURES ON MARS." (PDF), 40th. Lunar and Planetary Science Conference (2009), retrieved 2009-08-12 {{citation}}: |format= requires |url= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |coeditors= ignored (help)

2.- "NASA Findings Suggest Jets Bursting From Martian Ice Cap". Jet Propulsion Laboratory. NASA. August 16, 2006. Retrieved 2009-08-11. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

3.- Bérczi, Sz., ed. (2004), "STRATIGRAPHY OF SPECIAL LAYERS – TRANSIENT ONES ON PERMEABLE ONES: EXAMPLES" (PDF), Lunar and Planetary Science XXXV (2004), retrieved 2009-08-12 {{citation}}: |format= requires |url= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |coeditors= ignored (help)

4.- They are unusual dark spots, fans and blotches, with small radial channel networks often associated with the location of spots. Ref:Kieffer, Hugh H. (30 May 2006). "CO2 jets formed by sublimation beneath translucent slab ice in Mars' seasonal south polar ice cap". Nature. 442: 793–796. Error: Bad DOI specified!. Retrieved 2009-09-02. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

5.- The 'Martian Spider' web page has dozens of images of radial troughs or channels with identical morphology to Dark Dune Spots (DDS); some examples: , , , , , , , , , BatteryIncluded (talk) 23:43, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose, at least in the current wording:

• Sources 1,2,3 do not provide any evidence that spiders and DDS are the same thing. They clearly talk of them as separate objects: in 1 there is this listing: "Various polar albedo features appear on Mars in springtime, like spiders ,dark spots, Dalmatian spots, and Dark Dune Spots (DDSs)" ; 2 provide some evidence of a theory about them being related but again not of being synonimous; 3 connects them in time (but doesn't say it's the same thing!only different phases of the same phenomenon) in Fig.5 which is described by authors as an highly hypothetical evolutionary scheme.
• Merging on the basis of points 4 and 5 falls within WP:OR and as such does not look acceptable.

If there is good scientific consensus on a phenomenon that describes them both where they can be merged, all good, but the current sources do not seem to indicate that. -- Cyclopia (talk) 09:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

"They are possibly related with Martian spiders, dark spots and Dalmatian spots, all of them being external manifestations of the same phenomenon or different phases of a same process."

• Kereszturi, A., ed. (2009), "POSSIBLE LIQUID-LIKE WATER PRODUCED SEEPAGE FEATURES ON MARS." (PDF), 40th. Lunar and Planetary Science Conference (2009), retrieved 2009-08-12 {{citation}}: |format= requires |url= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |coeditors= ignored (help)
  
• "NASA Findings Suggest Jets Bursting From Martian Ice Cap". Jet Propulsion Laboratory. NASA. August 16, 2006. Retrieved 2009-08-11. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
• Bérczi, Sz., ed. (2004), "STRATIGRAPHY OF SPECIAL LAYERS – TRANSIENT ONES ON PERMEABLE ONES: EXAMPLES" (PDF), Lunar and Planetary Science XXXV (2004), retrieved 2009-08-12 {{citation}}: |format= requires |url= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |coeditors= ignored (help)
  

Although their nature is not yet undestrood, it is unquestionable that scientists are presenting models that treat them as the same phenomena. BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

What is unquestionable is that some scientists are treating them as possibly a manifestation of the same underlying phenomenon. This means that 1. Apparently there is no scientific consensus on that, 2. They are hypothesis yet to be proven (and they are even wildly different between each other, if you go reading the papers) (which rationalizes point 1) and 3. They are not conjectured to be the same thing by at least one source, but to be different chronological phases of an underlying phenomenon. Eggs and chickens are different phases of the same phenomenon, yet they can be described separately. --Cyclopia (talk) 20:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Good, so we agree that scientists are studying them as "possible manifestations of the same underlying phenomenon." This is the reason for the merge proposal. Only one peer-reviewed paper would have been enough to warrant the merge, and there are several cited.

One aspect I want to remark is that different teams call these formations by different nicknames, for example, Ness' team enthusiastically describes all these formation types as "Plant-like", "Martian Boab-tree", "One-armed bandits", "Fans", "Platform", and "Terrace", and include in their research all low albedo (dark spots, dalmatian spots and spiders) formations but they : "use the word 'spider' as a generic name": . These names given to structures 'do not imply an etiology they are only used to describe or clarify an object's shape or appearance. Because of this features are new and their etiology is not yet well understood, there is no naming convetion yet, although more recent research articles have begun to coalesce the nomenclature by the use of "low albedo spots" or "low albedo formations" (likely chosen for their most evident reflectance property). Therefore I agree with Cyclopia's wording: "all of them being external manifestations of the same phenomenon or different phases of a same process." Cheers BatteryIncluded (talk) 05:05, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

No, as an author of peer-reviewed papers, I can guarantee you that one peer-reviewed paper is by all means not enough to warrant anything in most or all cases. You can find peer reviewed papers in support of practically everything: appearing in an academic journal does not mean it is the truth. There are peer reviewed papers denying that HIV causes AIDS, or proposing patent nonsense like butterflies being an hybrid of a beetle and a velvet worm In our case we have a couple of papers that put forward different hypothesis on these subjects, both suggesting a connection between the two things. Good, and surely worth a mention, and personally I am even convinced there is truth behind such hypothesis. But this does not make scientific consensus, which is an entirely different thing.

I try to explain myself with an example. Imagine we live in a world in which we don't know that caterpillars become butterflies (This is not so far-fetched: many larval and adult forms of invertebrates were thought to be different species for decades!). A couple of papers appear, based on sporadic and distant observations, suggesting caterpillars and butterflies are related: one proposing that caterpillars become butterflies, another proposing that butterflies become caterpillars. Is this worth a mention? Absolutely. Is this worth a merge? Absolutely not, until scientific consensus emerges, . If you have sources indicating such consensus exists (e.g. a review article stating clearly that it is commonly and widely accepted that they are the same thing) I will be happy to support your idea. --Cyclopia (talk) 09:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

If this is true (no reason to doubt of your words, but claims have to be sourced), it could be an idea to merge the two articles under the most generic name, Low albedo formations, keeping them as (mostly) separate sections, and redirecting appropriately. Please provide these sources. --Cyclopia (talk) 09:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Battery asked me to comment here. After a look through some of the links, I agree that the terms are not synonymous but that the Spiders are generally taken to be a type of DDS. The Spiders have a more specific definition (low albedo, depressed formations with radial troughs) while DDS seems to be something of a catch-all. I think the Low albedo formations (Martian south pole) might work, but it's a bit of a mouthful. Alternatively, could Planum Australe handle all of it? Marskell (talk) 23:07, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I apologize if I gave the impresion that I was proposing a new article name in order to merge both Dark spots and Spiders. I have been working late and I was quite tired to express myself correctly. The 'generic' name used in news releases and in the scientific literature seems to be mostly "dark dune spots" and "spiders". What I ment to say is that "low albedo" is not used so much as a name but as a "description" common to their optical and infrared properties (which is pretty much all the info there is now). Anyway, to close the circle, I gladly indulge you both and provide below some sources describing them as low albedo areas/spots/features/etc.):

Direct quotes:

• 1. "Introduction: Various polar albedo features appear on Mars in springtime, like spiders, dark spots, Dalmatian spots, and Dark Dune Spots (DDSs)" (2009)

• 2. "Edgett et al. have made an analysis of the whole defrosting process from the winter until the summer of the southern hemisphere, using images taken in 1999-2000 of the low-albedo dune fields".

• 3. "Introduction: Dark dune spots occur as ephemeral objects on the dark dune (DD) fields, which are fine-grained, dark blue, low-albedo, sand-sized eolian sediments, mainly of dense basaltic sand. "

• 4. "Spiders are pale albedo, typically with a mud-like core. + "The large objects are 200 to 400 m in diameter. Some arms spiral. Some have a hollow and others a solid core (pale albedo)." + "On right: larger Amoeba shapes with a dark core and more complex tubes radiating from the large central core/fissure. Dark albedo material is deposited over the branches. Note the small dark fans associated with the structures." + "Figure 2k is black (dark albedo) 'blob' material creating fans and ravines in the bedding." + "Old Tree - Above ground structures that look like tree stumps in old forests. They are normally pale albedo (white) and seem to be mostly composed of ice." + "Amoeba - Have a large dark albedo (black) central core, which may or may not be solid in appearance and legs that radiate out from the core. The shape is similar to a cockroach, with a large elongate central core and many small legs. These sometimes bifurcate. Amoebas tend to be related to and create linear elongate mounds (so may form dune-type patterns)." + "Many "spider-ravine" structures have a solid mudlike (or ice) core or plug This may be either a pale or a dark albedo - which implies more than one type of material may be involved." + "Dark albedo layers in the top image are tuff-like bands that may have oozed material out of the bedding plane." + "This image (and the others) may represent the same TCB units etched or eroded by the process of retreat– caused by the growth of tubes and ravines related to specific (dark albedo) layers." + "The pale albedo (white) tubes are old spiders partly eroded by outflow channels where fluids have burst the spider." + "Old terrace of ravines/ spiders from the equator. They have pale albedo infill as with spiders." + "The dark albedo (black ‘blob’) material on the right forms bush-shapes with feeders being permafrost fractures." + "Black (dark albedo) 'blob' material and tubes that occur on the edge of layered cliffs (of ice and or sand) or edges of spider platforms in Southern Polar Regions is crustal destroying."

• 5."Spiders were detected by MOC in the so-called cryptic region. It is defined as area that simultaneously has low temperature and low albedo."

• 6. This paper is all about polar dark albedo features: "Introduction: Knowledge of the physical nature of dark spots and streaks in western Arabia is important because they are among the surfaces that provide some of the best thermal infrared spectral signatures (i.e., strongest absorption features) for interpretation of the planet’s upper crust mineralogy,..."

• 7. "The CO2 jets hypothesis by Piqueux et al. (2003) requires the formation of spiders to be associated with the cryptic region, low albedo areas with temperatures around that of CO2 sublimation during most of the year."

• 8. "Such material may be confined to the observed low-albedo patches," + "Even if the dark material in the south is confined only to observed low-albedo patches, its thermal properties are probably similar to those of dark material in the north and to those of non-polar dust mantles."

• 9. "Abstract: The cryptic region is a fascinating part of the seasonal south polar cap (SSPC) defined by a low albedo, the presence of CO2 ice and the activity of the spiders.

Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 06:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are trying to demonstrate with these quotes.

• Quote 1 does not make a case for the merge: quite the contrary, it's clearly a list of separate things. It's like saying "Various animals appear on Earth in springtime..." is a reason to merge them all.
• Quote 2 does not make clear anything else than that people talk of "low albedo dune fields"
• Same for quote 3: kinda obvious that "dark"="low albedo"
• Quote 4 says that spiders are pale albedo, then goes into a morphological description which does not talk of DDS.
• Quote 5 emphasis is referred apparently to the cryptic region, not spiders
• Quote 6 again talks of polar dark albedo features, so what?
• Quote 7 says that if the CO2 jets hypothesis is real then they are connected, something which seems still very much to see.
• Quote 8 doesn't tell anything meaningful about the merge; again talks of dark albedo features.
• Quote 9 says that spiders occur often in low albedo regions but makes no further connection.

All of this makes a quite nice case for merging both articles (DDS and spiders) into a Southern emisphere albedo features (Mars) article, discussing them both or something like that, but absolutely not to merge DDS into spiders or viceversa.--Cyclopia (talk) 16:53, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

You did not read the comment before replying. I REPEAT: "low albedo" is not used so much as a name but as a "description" common to their optical and infrared properties (which is pretty much all the info there is now). BatteryIncluded (talk) 19:49, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I see, sorry. I read the comment above but failed to see the point of that. Do you mean that "Low albedo feature" is not a feasible name for the merge? --Cyclopia (talk) 23:55, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

If you have sources indicating such consensus exists (e.g. a review article stating clearly that it is commonly and widely accepted that they are the same thing) I will be happy to support your idea. -Cyclopia

I too am a published researcher myself, thank you. The scientific consensus is implicit in the multiple cited reports already embedded in the article and dished out in this page. Of course you can choose to ignore them, but that would not be intelectual honesty. The question is: Did you belive yourself when you wrote and sourced: "all of them being external manifestations of the same phenomenon or different phases of a same process." Regards, BatteryIncluded (talk) 08:22, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

My edit was not clear, and I apologize for that. The key word was possibly, which you didn't quote. I now reworded the introduction to be more clear. As for scientific consensus, sorry but I fail to see anything implicit, and I'm not choosing to ignore everything: you brought no quote explicitly stating that it is known for a fact that DDS and spiders are the same thing. There is only a bunch of interesting (and mutually conflicting) hypothesis. --Cyclopia (talk) 16:53, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

If you actually ever published anything worth publishing in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, you would know that nobody could claim such geology features to be "known for a fact to be xyz" while there is only indirect optical and IR data. However, planetary science builds up from theories based on observations and likely geophysical models, and it is this collective presentation of hypotheses, theories and models that bring forth the evident scientific concensus which relates their nature or dynamics in the same space and time. Scientific consensus needs not to be listed in a "single review article" in order to be a factual consensus.

This discussion and review of the material has served its purpose well, so I am glad I waited since August 11 for at least one person's opinion before proceding with the merger. We agree that the sources quoted and discussed grant the merger of Dark Dune Spots and Spiders not as synonyms but as possibly related features, and I agree with the 2 edits you have introduced in the WP article so far.

Having read the all the cited research with intelectual and scientific honesty and after discussion, now I take this to the next phase, our situational awareness here in Misplaced Pages: 'Truth' is not the criteria for inclusion of any idea or statement in a Misplaced Pages article, even if it is on a scientific topic. The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth —that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true.(Misplaced Pages:Truth) Therefore, my motion to coalesce the articles' information and merge them is on. Cheers BatteryIncluded (talk) 19:49, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Please avoid personal attacks. What I have published is of no concern here. And well, I understand completely that you cannot know with 100% certainity what these spots are. Nor it is important for the article, since what is important is the existence (I cannot repeat it too many times) of scientific consensus.

You very correctly state that the inclusion of material on WP depends on existence of verifiable sources. Now, the problem is that you fail to provide a single source indicating that there is general consensus for DDS and spiders to be facets of the same thing. You linked a lot of articles which seem all to converge on the possibility of a relationship, but still very vaguely, nor there is any indication that these articles do represent the majority viewpoint. If consensus is so obvious as you state, there should be no problem at all in getting a source clearly stating it is so. Don't get me wrong, I'm quite positive you're in complete good faith and you seem to show good knowledge of the subject -clearly more than mine. However if you want to merge within either DDS or Martian spiders, we need a verifiable source about such consensus, and such source still hasn't been provided.

That said, I think that a merge is a very good idea because there are indeed enough sources to justify treating the features in the same article. What I disagree with is merging within either of DDS or spiders. I would merge under an umbrella term: you look more entitled than me to suggest the right one. --Cyclopia (talk) 23:55, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I am glad you support of the merger now. Thank you. As I said before, I have already moved to the next phase from discussing the science, and now it is about the mechanics of Misplaced Pages merging. Nowhere it says a merge relies on "at least one review article of consensus"; I have cited almost thirty high quality sources supporting the possible features' relationship including a statistic study, so anyone's POV on "the truth" is more than overriden by the references brought forth.

As for the name of the article, it is WP policy to use the most common name of the person or thing that is the subject of the article; in this case I deem approrpiate to leave it as "Dark dune spots" with a large section on "spiders" as well -at least until new data is available. Cheers. BatteryIncluded (talk) 02:06, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A small wikiquette concern

• Comment Ehm, BatteryIncluded, you are the one who nominated the thing: it is obvious you are strongly in favour. It makes no sense for you to repeat your own arguments multiple times, it only gives a skewed apperance of the debate. For short, you should not vote on your own proposals: you of course should discuss it with voters. --Cyclopia (talk) 20:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

It is not "my argument" or vote that counts, but the facts presented in the scientific literature and their rightful interpretation. Cheers. BatteryIncluded (talk) 21:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely agree, but I (and fellow wikipedians who could join this discussion) would appreciate a less confusing formatting, so I took the freedom to reformat your edit cosmetically as a comment to my "vote", as it in fact is. We can continue the discussion about the article above. --Cyclopia (talk) 23:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe I didn't made myself clear. You are asking for a discussion about a merge. I added my opinion in a poll-like fashion. If you are the one who propose something (a merge, a delete, whatever) it is completely senseless that you also !vote (whatever we mean by that, remember WP:VOTE) on that something, reiterating the same arguments of the nomination. It only makes things incomprehensible for the casual reader. The change was purely cosmetic because it is plain obvious that you endorse the merge with those arguments: you nominated it with the same arguments! Please reformat your interventions in a non-confusing manner, and let's continue discussing about the article content. --Cyclopia (talk) 01:02, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I respectufully decline yor proposal to nulify my opinion and edits to my own posts. I have never been much of an edit warrior or take part on pissing contests, so can we please focus on the science now? Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 01:08, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by "pissing contests", nor by "proposal to nullify". No one nullified everything, nor wants to. I just moved the comment in the thread hierarchy, removed the bold and put it in the right context, to avoid to give readers the impression that you are casting a !vote on your own discussion, which would be an obvious breach of discussion transparency (and also redundant). WP:TPO explicitly allows editing of other people's comments for formatting purposes, provided no content is modified or deleted. That said, I would appreciate to focus on the science, and I would really hope for that, but if you reasonably want consensus to emerge, you should make the conversation as easy to follow as possible, which is not happening with its current formatting. I won't touch it anymore since you seem to be sensitive to it, but I ask you to consider that this would be a little effort but very helpful for the discussion, even if it's not raw content. Thanks. --Cyclopia (talk) 01:28, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

The contents of the Martian spiders page were merged into Geysers on Mars. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

Additional research articles

Additional articles to read and to extract info: , , , , . -BatteryIncluded (talk) 06:06, 5 September 2009 (UTC)