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Gun_politics_in_Australia, rewrite for accurate neutral view

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Gun_politics_in_Australia
as i'm new to wiki and to have some arbitration with the finished product, i wish to request assistance in rewriting this page to present a balanced position, while working with 3 or 4 people
i think someone with writing skills and who is able to perceive australian gun politics though australian or european general gun culture would be needed,
thank you Jack v1 (talk) 00:45, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Looks like someone else has attempted to kick-start discussion at WikiProject Firearms about this, and it also looks like there's a bit of discussion at Talk:Gun politics in Australia. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 21:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I am the editor who is reverting Jack v1. I agree with him that the article has tended to have NPOV problems, but that is only because the pro-control partisans tend to be drive-by editors. The specific reverts that bothered him were because his edit removed the point of the sentence.
Jack v1 asked if the 'government position' should be regarded as the neutral ground; it is a major stakeholder and actor on one side of the politics, and NPOV is better handled via neutral and fact-based language than adopting one party's line. Happy to have all assistance in improving the article, especially if editors are willing to actually cite better sources which we need. The talk page at Gun_politics_in_Australia is active, please visit.ChrisPer (talk) 05:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Still hoping for editors to drop by at Gun_politics_in_Australia and help with NPOV. The editor Jack v1 who initiated this request has not been around for a little while, but I would be glad of your help. ChrisPer (talk) 08:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

No editors have stopped by to help make the article more NPOV as yet. One editor apparently from Gun COntrol Australia inserted a section displaying fairly extreme NPOV problems, which I moved to use in the article as an example of their thinking. Still want assistance or suggestions to improve NPOV and quality of the article. ChrisPer (talk) 02:23, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


Lily Kempson

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:41, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

An article I researched, wrote, and contributed (about 2 years ago) has been deleted. Its title was "Lily Kempson". By whom? On what grounds? Why was I not notified? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Junkbakayaro (talkcontribs) 03:05, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

It was deleted by Renata3 (talk · contribs) per CSD A7 (article doesn't assert notability of the subject). You can contact the deleting admin on his/her talk page and then ask for a deletion review if necessary. –Capricorn42 (talk) 03:12, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Nearing edit war on Stephen Gostkowski article

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:42, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

An anonymous editor (from 83.31.*), a few days ago, decided to add this note to Stephen Gostkowski article immediately after the pronunciation: "however, in Polish, this pronunciation is improper." Attempts to remove this have resulted in reverts; with the claim that "this is important." Given how unusual it is for an article to state how a name "should" be pronounced, I've asked the editor to explain why such information justifies such prominent placement, to no avail; moreover, the editor has said "don't reply on my talk page." Samer (talk) 03:09, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Well if he refuses to communicate then I guess WP:3RRN is the way to go. –Capricorn42 (talk) 03:14, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
I struggle to see what your problem is. The IP editor is from Poland, this is a Polish surname and it would be pronounced with a "K" in the original language like "(pronounced "gost kov ski" in Polish) then by compromising in this way a) you add value to the article and b) you get rid of the edit war. Speaking of which I'd say you are just as guilty of 3RR as the IP editor. --TimTay (talk) 06:39, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
  • The IP editor is not adding the actual Polish pronunciation to the article, just the phrase "however, in Polish, this pronunciation is improper" in reference to the English pronunciation. Even if the original Polish pronunciation of the name were relevant to the article, which I don't think it is because the subject was born in the United States and has spent his entire career here, that's not useful information. The IP editor would arguably have been helping if they had added a sentence stating what the original pronunciation of the name was. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Author Biographies

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

On behalf of authors of Oxford Children's Books, I'd like to start new articles containing their biographies, bibliographies and some images. However, I am not sure how to achieve this without infringing verfication or original research policies, as the information that I have is straight from the authors. How would I reference the information for these pages?

Also, I would like to link each author page to our Oxford Children's Book website, but am unsure whether this would fall under conflict of interests - please advise.

Oxford Children's Books (talk) 15:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I note that another editor has already noted on your user talk page that your username appears to be problematic, so won't get too deep into that. However, as you do work for the company in question, your creating articles and editing the ones already in place that represent authors under that impression is very much against our conflict of interest guidelines. Generally, an author who is notable enough for inclusion will have an article created by a person independent of the company. I suggest that you first consider a username change or start a new account under a new name, then consider joining Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Children's literature and offering suggestions there - I'm sure the editors participating in that project would be happy to discuss your suggested additions. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:58, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
I'd argue against the username change, solely for the fact that you are advising companies to sign up as a "un-affiliated user" when they really are, still confused about policies, and editing as if they were. This makes identification of such users harder. I'm more of an advocate of "have a editor guide said company/person in determining notability, and through wikipedia policies on a few articles, lessening the learning curve, and then, they hopefully will become a beneficial contributor to the project. I endorse going to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Children's literature. ηoian ‡orever ηew ‡rontiers 05:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
That would be at odds with WP:SPA which argues against single purpose accounts and clearly contrary to WP:UN. – ukexpat (talk) 22:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Actually, it is not contrary to WP:UN. Company names are not forbidden, it is a problem if it is being used for promotion (url of a website for instance) but is not specifically against policy. I am with Noian, it is better to have peoples affiliations out in the open. It is quite against Wikipedias' interests to have them forced to hide them. SpinningSpark 01:45, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I'd debate the point, but it's moot, as another admin has blocked the account and requested a username change. Tony Fox (arf!) 06:30, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Living Person Biographical Information re Ken McCarthy

Current dispute over inclusion of material on biography of living person, Ken McCarthy. Thanks! Jettparmer (talk) 19:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I have commented on the talk page of the article, but can you be a little more specific on what you are requesting? SpinningSpark 01:20, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I am concerned about escalation to an edit war, particularly lately. It seems like some edits are purposely attempting to exclude relevant material about BLP. I appreciate your thoughts.Jettparmer (talk) 21:57, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I too would like the perspective of editors coming to this without a personal viewpoint - I recently made a request on the BLP noticeboard. I might as well declare my interest at this point, since the matter is bound to arise at some point. My only contact with Mr McCarthy is as an attendee at several of his 'System Seminar' events over the past few years and a fairly regular listener to his podcasts of interviews with entrepreneurs and internet strategists. The impression I formed of him is of someone who is intelligent, thoughtful, level-headed and possessing a high level of personal integrity. It is easily verified that he is widely known and respected for his activities as a business educator, and somewhat well-known for his social activism and commentary. There is no perceptible public conversation characterising him as a 'conspiracy theorist', and the attempt to pin such a label on him seems to me clearly defamatory. I came across this article by accident while browsing wikipedia to see what it says about individuals that I happen to know, and started editing here in an effort to correct what seemed to me to be several clear violations of wikipedia policy directed at undermining the subject's reputation. DaveApter (talk) 08:32, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


How should citation format be done for foreign language citations?

I'm helping work on an article on userspace for reintroduction into mainspace, and whilst there are >9 english citations, ~50% of the remaining ones are in Chinese. I'm considering changing the citation style to something like this:

What exactly should the formatting style be? The manual of style doesn't really provide a clear position on this, only stating "shouldn't be used as only sources", and "needs translation".

Thanks for the help!. ηoian ‡orever ηew ‡rontiers 05:02, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Erk... I initially completely misread what you were looking for. My best suggestion would be that you should translate the quotes and maybe use a direct quote in the article instead of just referencing the site. I'm sadly not sure how to translate this though. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 06:07, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
You'd need to provide an English translation in the references section, in a standard format of some kind or other. I don't think it would hurt to provide a foreign-language reference after the English one (on the same line). Ling.Nut 07:10, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
So would that mean switching the order around in the example citation? ηoian ‡orever ηew ‡rontiers 15:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


DAVID DOMANICH

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:45, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

ON THE LIST OF PEOPLE HE PRODUCED / WORKED WITH, A VERY IMPORTANT ARTIST, FREDDIE FRY IS DELETED,, DAVID DOMANICH, PRODUCED " RESONATOR" BY FREDDIE FRY HE ALSO PLAYED DRUMS, MELLOTRON,, AND DID BACKGROUND VOCALS ON THAT EXCELLENT CD , WHICH FEATURES MIKE DALY , FROM WHISKEYTOWN ONE OF RYAN ADAMS' LAST BANDS BEFORE GOING SOLO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.135.187 (talk) 05:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Erm.....content dispute? ηoian ‡orever ηew ‡rontiers 06:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I can't tell what article this is in reference to. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 06:59, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Maybe this is a request to create David Domanich or add his name to other articles? Hard to tell over the SHOUTING! – ukexpat (talk) 16:22, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Michael Jackson's "Stranger in Moscow" and Sega's "Sonic the Hedgehog 3" ending credits theme

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:46, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to have some advice on how to best incorporate the "fact" that Sonic the Hedgehog 3 featured a version of the song Stranger in Moscow two years prior to it's official release on Michael Jackson's HIStory album. This is pretty much straight forward and can be concluded with a quick search on youtube.

See Stranger in Moscow and my Edit, which got undone. I provided a source which proves the claim but it has been tagged as an unreliable source. The Sonic the Hedgehog 3 article on wikipedia mentions this fact.

PabloGS (talk) 00:14, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Exceptional claims require exceptional sources; a fansite is generally not considered an "exceptional source". If it's a credible claim rather than a fringe theory it seems likely that mainstream gaming and music publications would have carried it by now. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 00:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Sonicretro.org is a very well reputated Sonic related site on the net. If that is not reliable enough, take a look at the Sonic 3 ending credits which lists Brad Buxer, Bobby Brooks, Darryl Ross, Geoff Grace and Doug Grigsby which all also worked on HIStory. Also, a quick look at http://www.musicpowers.com/cirocco.html would reveal, that composer Cirocco was working with Michael Jackson on the Sonic soundtrack. A quick search on youtube would also reveal that the songs are technically the same just at different pace and pitch. And I believe this deserves attention and is noteworthy since Mainstream media like YouTube or AOL video cover a broad variety of subjects regarding Michael Jackson's involvement in Sonic 3. PabloGS (talk) 00:41, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
We can't use any of that technical evidence; it's original research. As to the musicpowers source, I'm not sure. You might want to ask the people at the reliable sources noticeboard, or maybe at the fringe theories noticeboard; the people there are more experienced with these sorts of cases. I may not be a specialist, but it genuinely doesn't look like the Sonicretro website qualifies as a reliable source for this sort of claim. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 02:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
I moved the talk to the Talk:Stranger_in_Moscow page. It is more appropriate there for future reference. Thanks for the Info! PabloGS (talk) 08:38, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Edit warring in Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing‎ and Misplaced Pages talk:Tendentious editing‎

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:47, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Background

In WP:TE, editor Colonel Warden made a revert (18:36, 13 January 2009), undoing my own edit 04:21, 10 January 2009 and a new shortcut added by Inclusionist. Colonel Warden's edit summary indicated he objected to the new shortcut.

I reverted Colonel Warden's edit 19:00, 13 January 2009 , requesing that he join the discussions on the talk page.

His response was to start a new discussion 20:12, 13 January 2009 without addressing the actual discussion on the edits he was reverting here or the related discussion here.

I found his response to be a personal attack that did not actually address the merits of the information he restored, so removed the attack and left an uw-npa1 note on his talk page 20:30, 13 January 2009 .

At issue

Since then, two WP:SPA ip's have begun editing Misplaced Pages. Their sole edits to date are identical other than the edit summaries, and consist of restoring Colonel Warden's edits to both the article and the talk page. I've reverted these edits, and warned both ip's about our WP:NPA policy.

Request for assistance/advice

At this point, I'd like some advise on what to do if this continues. I'm going to avoid reverting, of course. --Ronz (talk) 19:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks like WP:ANI is the correct place for this. – ukexpat (talk) 20:32, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
IS there seriously tendentious editing going on at WP:Tendentious Editing. I don't know whether to rofl or cry... Surely this is WP:LAME-worthy. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

When "reliable sources" aren't: proof that FactCheck is lying deleted from Obama talk page

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I added a section to the Barack Obama talk page that you can see here. It was quickly deleted by SHEFFIELDSTEEL; see the note here. I'd like to know which rules my comment broke, and, if it did break any rules, how to bring it into a form where it can be kept on the talk page for further discussion designed to improve the Barack Obama article.

I realize this is a very contentious issue and many people are unable to accept that FactCheck would lie. And, unfortunately, many people have been more or less trained to discount any discussion of Obama's birth certificate. However, if you review my comment with an open mind you'll see that I'm correct.

What this boils down to is the FactCheck statement that The director of Hawaii’s Department of Health confirmed Oct. 31 that Obama was born in Honolulu. However, if you review the statement from that director (PDF link at hawaii.gov, cached here) you'll see that she did not confirm where he was born. Then, take a look at the Hawaii state law that allows those born outside that state to get valid Hawaii birth certificates (link at hawaii.gov). That law - established in 1982 - means that FactCheck is making an assumption that - per Hawaii state law - might be false. That doesn't mean that Obama was born outside Hawaii. However, it does mean that those who definitively state that the HI DOH statement shows he was born in Hawaii are lying.

It's difficult to find what Misplaced Pages considers a "reliable source" to point that out, since many "reliable sources" other than FactCheck have been lying about this issue. See the full discussion and a list of the "reliable sources" that have lied here. LonewackoDotCom (talk) 20:38, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I think a review of WP:OR is all that's needed here, though WP:BLP applies as well. --Ronz (talk) 20:47, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
i'm no expert but that explanation looks like original research (synthesis-wise) Untwirl (talk) 21:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Even if the FactCheck page misstates the Hawaii release, I think one would need to evaluate the page as a whole to ascertain whether its conclusions are still viable. And even if they aren't, what reliable source is there for the (loaded) assertion, as fact, that FactCheck "lied"? Unsourced; POV; OR. JohnInDC (talk) 21:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Since I posted this request, my username (LonewackoDotCom) was blocked due to an apparent violation of naming rules; it was suggested I choose a new name, which I did. For proof it's me, see lonewacko.com/zxy4931-my-new-wikipedia-username.
As for my assertion that FactCheck is lying, I haven't yet mentioned that in December 2008 I emailed FactCheck and asked them for a correction. I later verified over the phone with Jess Henig from FactCheck that their editor, Brooks Jackson had received my email. She told me he would contact me, but he never did. So, I personally have absolutely no qualms about saying that FactCheck is lying, but Misplaced Pages can feel free not to go that far.
While the fact that FactCheck is clearly at the least misstating Hawaii's position and has no interest in correcting the matter doesn't necessarily negate everything else on that page, it certainly doesn't boost the credibility of what else is on that page.
And, the bottom line is that the Barack Obama article is relying on a FactCheck page that contains what any objective person would consider a false statement. Which is more important, a strict adherence to WP:OR, or keeping Misplaced Pages from spreading disinformation?
Please tell me exactly what I need to do to get the truth about this matter into either the Barack Obama article itself, or at least the talk page. ZXY4931 (talk) 23:03, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
As stated in WP:V, "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth." --Ronz (talk) 01:25, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Since you seem to be the one proposing an idea that is not supported by any reliable mainstream source on this, perhaps you should be finding source that positively confirm your interpretation of events. Merely having a source which you choose to read in a very specific way different from someone else does not mean that the people you disagree with are lying. Obama's citizenship is no more in question than any of his predecessors in the Office of President, and any claims to the contrary simply do not have any positive evidence to support them. If there were such evidence, it would be more than a statement by the Hawaii register of deeds refusing to release private medical records... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:26, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Please don't misrepresent my argument. This has nothing to do with the "Hawaii register of deeds", and I never mentioned them. Further, I haven't argued whether or not Obama is a citizen; my argument is as stated above. Nor am I making an "extraordinary claim". Please read my argument thoroughly, read the links at hawaii.gov, and endeavor to understand my argument. It really isn't that difficult at all: FactCheck is misrepresenting what the state of Hawaii said. As for those "reliable mainstream sources", I already provided a list of some of those who've lied about this issue in my first posting here.
So far, it looks like all of Misplaced Pages's rules are stacked against my attempts to make sure that the Barack Obama entry is not relying on a "reliable source" that's spreading a false statement. And, Misplaced Pages is enabling them to spread that false statement.
Hopefully an editor who cares about Misplaced Pages's credibility will tell me what my options are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ZXY4931 (talkcontribs) 03:25, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, part of the problem is that your concerns seem to be shifting. This section, which you created, complains that an editor removed your commentary concerning "proof" that FactCheck had "lied". You had, of course, provided nothing of the kind - and what you had written was OR to boot. As the discussion has progressed, your concern has narrowed - it's no longer about FactCheck actually lying, or whether Barack Obama is a citizen (if that's not the concern then why all the fuss about this birth certificate?), or whether the FactCheck site still can reasonably be said to establish the thing it's cited for, this inaccuracy notwithstanding - but simply that Misplaced Pages has cited to a link with a factual error in it, and thereby is "spreading disinformation". If that is where you now in fact find yourself, I would start by figuring out what your actual point is, and then making it dispassionately and credibly on the Talk page of the article in question. You may have a bit of repair work to do in that regard - I hope you can appreciate how most editors would react with skepticism when evaluating your initial effort, which was after all a pretty obvious OR, POV and FRINGE complaint from someone with the user name "LoneWacko.com". JohnInDC (talk) 04:10, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

In order to avoid wasting everyone's time, please do your best to understand my argument. My argument has not "shifted". I say that FactCheck is lying based on them refusing to print a correction to a false statement. Anyone who examines the issue in an objective fashion will be able to see that they aren't telling the truth. How exactly Misplaced Pages wants to phrase that is part of the consensus I'm trying to reach; Misplaced Pages can say they're lying or simply that they aren't telling the truth or whatever.
As for the supposed "narrowing" of my argument concerning "whether Barack Obama is a citizen", please re-read what I wrote. You won't find me arguing for or against that or even mentioning whether he's a citizen or not.
As for your issue with my former domain name and username, I'm sure everyone recognizes that for a childish ad hominem.
Let me try this again: Misplaced Pages's entry about Barack Obama is prominently linking to (fourth footnote) and based in part on a page from FactCheck that contains a blatantly false statement. Whatever rules Misplaced Pages has, Misplaced Pages is enabling FactCheck to mislead people.
In order to improve the Barack Obama article and keep it from being used to mislead people, how do I change my original comment on the talk page into a format that's compatible with Misplaced Pages's rules? Surely, if Misplaced Pages wants to avoid helping mislead people, that must be possible, right? ZXY4931 (talk) 23:53, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Your statements that FactCheck are your opinion only, unless you have reliable sources that have covered the similar statements. Your opinion is not enough to get the article changed. It's got to be something that has been covered in a notable, reliable outside source - a third-party reference. Unless you have that, and can prove unequivocally that there is an issue, then there's not really much that can be done. Verifiability is the key. Tony Fox (arf!) 00:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

North Sea references

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:49, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

An editor User:Inwind and I have been helping to improve North Sea. Inwind has removed some references from a section I had worked on (see diff), saying that he had moved the references to another page and a wikilink to that page was sufficient (User_talk:Inwind#North_Sea_3). I disagree and feel that those references are critical to establishing and verifying that there are potential ecological and wildlife effects from the use of wind power in the North Sea. I don't read anywhere on Misplaced Pages:Citing sources that references should be removed from one page if that information might be in another. That means a reader would have to know exactly which link to click (in this case Environmental effects of wind power) and have to search for that or similar information just to find the reference for material they read on the North Sea article. I believe articles should be able to stand alone in terms of verifiability. Is this correct? --Jh12 (talk) 22:54, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

The guideline you are looking for is Misplaced Pages:Summary style#References, citations and external links. Where there is a more detailed main article on a sub-topic, the section of the more general article should be a summary of the sub-article and there is no need to repeat all its references except where a specific fact in the summary needs to be supported. I have to say, you have one impressive list of references in that article - 215 currently, and that's after a swathe have just been deleted. The specific sentence you are referring to had two references, are you sure you need them both for just for a summary? Can I also offer the advice that the article is a bit too long, it takes ages to load and could do with breaking up into smaller articles. SpinningSpark 01:39, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
I think they are absolutely needed because the environmental impact (particularly for migratory birds) of wind power is extensively documented in news and reports, but it is cited nowhere else on the North Sea article. The environmental impact on wildlife ecology is summarized in only one sentence on this article and referenced with one citation for above and below the water, respectively. It says at Misplaced Pages:Summary_style#References.2C_citations_and_external_links that "There is no need to repeat all the references for the subtopics in the main "Summary style" article, unless they are required to support a specific point. The policy on sources, Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, says that sources must be provided for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations." It does not say there is no need to repeat any references and I also believe the sentence is on a specific point that should always be referenced per Misplaced Pages:Verifiability policy --Jh12 (talk) 15:43, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability/Archive_18#What_if_you_used_Wikipedia.3F --Jh12 (talk) 16:01, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
That is not the issue here, it is not about using other Wiki pages as a reference. SpinningSpark 00:47, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
I believe it is the issue. Every claim of every sentence I have worked on is supposed to be verifiable to a reliable source. If it is not written in another source, I do not include the material or I add a fact tag. Simply stating that there is an "environmental impact of windturbines" requires a reference. If the statement in question is excessive information, then I have no problems with removing it. But as written, it is an insufficiently referenced sentence. The archive link I provided by User:Blueboar says "Each article should stand on its own, and things said in each article should be verifiable to sources outside of Misplaced Pages." --Jh12 (talk) 16:12, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with Spinningspark, it's a case of too much info can spoil a page. Many times it is better to try and add a simple sentence, such as "The environmental impact of windturbines is discussed here (and then put a link/links to the pages) Chaosdruid (talk) 01:30, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Jh12 is right, a summmary article must contain citations for all non-trivial statements, even even if they are expanded in other articles that contain relevant citations.
There are a few things wrong with ""The environmental impact of windturbines is discussed here (and then put a link/links to the pages)":
  • "Each article should stand on its own, and things said in each article should be verifiable to sources outside of Misplaced Pages." (cited above)
  • It implies that there significant of worrying environmental impacts, and that needs at least 1 citation.
  • For about the same number of words the article could say, e.g. "The use of wind turbines round the North Sea has aroused ecological and wildlife concerns", which is much more informative - but requires citations. --Philcha (talk) 17:09, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Mitch Berger - football player

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:50, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Mitch is an old friend of mine, I played minor league baseball with him and graduated in the same class. His dad coached baseball with my father. I used to work where his mother worked. So when I went to his page and saw that it said he attended Tyler Junior College, I edited the page stating that he had graduated from Colorado University. My edit was erased. Please research it before you just dismiss it. He may have transfered from Junior College but he graduated from Colorado. Want proof - check any of his football bios. I remember his mom had a University of Colorado bumper sticker on her car. This is not very vital - I realize, but I am disappointed with how I thought this site worked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.6.149 (talk) 08:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Mitch Berger did attend Tyler Junior College as well. I'll check his page. Thanks for letting us know! Dayewalker (talk) 08:46, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Ban Request - 172.162.29.86

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:51, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

172.162.29.86 - This IP has been seen consistently vandalizing pages.

For instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Pay_It_Forward&curid=577152&oldid=264567046

They just blanked this page (which was restored by a bot). Check their contributions page for more info.

--Sc0ttkclark (talk) 16:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

They've only vandalized one page since 2007, and have been warned for that. Behavior should be watched, but if it progresses beyond a final warning, WP:AIV is the proper venue to report the IP's vandalism. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 18:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
also, contribs link: contributions —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 19:03, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Mistake in results for the marathon results for the Guam team at the Seoul Olympics

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:52, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I was a member of the Guam team at the 1988 Seoul Olympics. I ran the marathon in a time of 3:25:32 finishing in 63rd place. Mariana Ysrael of the Guam team finished 64th in a time of 3:42.23. Other information is shown on your

http://en.wikipedia.org/Guam_at_the_1988_Summer_Olympics

Can this be corrected?

Thanks,

Lourdes Klitzkie

(redacted) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.55.220.35 (talk) 06:52, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Please do not include contact details in your questions. We are unable to provide answers by any off-wiki medium and this page is highly visible across the internet. The details have been removed, but if you wish for them to be permanently removed from the page history, email this address.


The reference (Official report) backs up what you claim so I have amended the article. --TimTay (talk) 08:29, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Hrafn

I've encountered multiple problems in dealing with User:Hrafn in connection with the Chuck Missler article. I told Hrafn that if the problem persisted I would take it to WP:AN/I, but because I'm not requesting a block, that forum may be inappropriate, so I decided to try posting here.

The underlying issue is a dispute about whether Missler is notable enough for an article. That dispute, of course, is properly raised at WP:AfD, not here. My concern here is with unilateral actions by Hrafn based on his personal view of notability, and his removal of talk-page comments expressing disagreement with him. For convenience, I'll create a subsection for each issue, so that editors can comment on them separately. JamesMLane t c 22:47, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Hrafn's disregard of WP:AfD

In brief: The Chuck Missler article was twice nominated for AfD, based on the nominator's assertion that Missler was nonnotable, and it twice survived (i.e., was not deleted). Hrafn, considering Missler to be nonnotable and hence disagreeing with the result that Misplaced Pages should have a standalone article about Missler, blanked the content and substituted a redirect to a one-line entry in a listing, and disparaged the AfD's. His position seems to be that a lone editor who considers an article subject nonnotable may act on that belief regardless of what anyone else says. This would be a very bad precedent and should be rejected.

Background: An editor who considered Missler to be nonnotable nominated the article for deletion in January 2006. The result of this first AfD was "no consensus", so the article was kept. Another editor who considered the subject nonnotable nominated it again in August 2006. The result of this second AfD was "speedy keep", with five editors responding, four of whom favored keeping the article, all four of whom affirmed Missler's notability, and one of whom added that the nomination was by a banned user.

In February 2008, Hrafn made this edit, blanking the entire content of the article and substituting a redirect to a one-line mention in List of evangelical Christians#Authors. When Hrafn was reverted a month later, he promptly re-reverted, stating in his ES, "Rvt: unexplained revert of redirect of article on non-notable topic". This month, I reinstated the article, noting in my ES, "redirecting as nn is improper when the article has survived AfD". Hrafn by this edit again removed all the content and substituted a redirect, stating "Restore redirect: per WP:ONEEVENT and per WP:AFD's EXPLICIT disavowal of control over redirects".

If an editor believes that the subject of an article doesn't meet Misplaced Pages's notability guidelines, the appropriate action is to list it for speedy deletion, citing an appropriate WP:CSD criterion, or to nominate it at AfD. In this instance, the article has been nominated twice. On each occasion, several Wikipedians gave their opinions that the subject was notable. On each occasion, the result was that the article was kept. Nevertheless, Hrafn has now unilaterally decided that these other Wikipedians are wrong, that Missler is nonnotable, and that Misplaced Pages should not have a standalone article about him. Hrafn has implemented that result without using CSD or AfD, and without using WP:DRV.

You can read the ensuing discussion between Hrafn and me at this former version of Talk:Chuck Missler. In sum, Hrafn made two major points. First, he quoted this passage from the AfD policy: "For problems that do not require deletion, including duplicate articles, articles needing improvement, pages needing redirects, or POV problems, be bold and fix the problem or tag the article appropriately." He apparently interpreted this as meaning that substituting a redirect never requires an AfD and can always be done by a lone editor. My response is that some problems don't require deletion, but some do, and nonnotability is in the latter category. For example, if someone were to create a new page at Charles Missler and write a couple sentences of bio, the correct response would be to remove all the content and substitute a redirect to the Chuck Missler article. No one would contend that the Charles Missler article would have to be nominated at AfD. The difference is that, in that instance, Misplaced Pages would still have an article about the subject. Duplicate pages is an example of a problem that can be handled by a redirect, without an AfD. Nonnotability, however, is not such a problem. Nonnotability is the single most common basis for AfD. For example, by Hrafn's reasoning, this recent AfD was unnecessary, as the nominator could instead have unilaterally removed all the content at Bizz buzz and substituted a redirect to Drinking game. The same could be said of practically any current AfD. The use of AfD to resolve notability disputes can't be circumvented by twisting the redirect policy. That would be true even if the article had never been nominated, but the violation is especially clear where, as here, the article has twice survived AfD.

Hrafn's other principal argument has been to disparage the prior AfD's. He apparently feels free to ignore the first AfD because the result was "no consensus". He described the second AfD as "ludicrously superficial", a conclusion he justified by expressing his !vote-by-!vote reasons for disagreeing with the 80% of the responding editors who favored keeping the article. He also concluded that the reason for the "speedy keep" in the second AfD was that the nomination was from a banned user. My response is that, if he thinks a "no-consensus" result might now be changed, or if he wants a non-superficial discussion, he should start a third AfD, a course I specifically suggested to him. Alternatively, I also pointed out that , if he thinks either AfD was closed improperly, he could raise the matter at WP:DRV. He did neither.

Relief requested: I suggest that an uninvolved editor revert the article to this version, the one immediately before Hrafn's most recent substitution of a redirect, without prejudice to the restoration of material previously removed by Hrafn (some of which I think was properly encyclopedic), and without prejudice to Hrafn's resort to DRV or AfD in pursuit of his goal. JamesMLane t c 22:47, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

JamesMLane's disregard of WP:AFD

Consider making the page a useful redirect or proposing it be merged rather than deleted. Neither of these actions requires an AfD.

— WP:AFD

HrafnStalk 02:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Hrafn's disruption of a talk page by suppressing another editor's comments

In brief: Hrafn has removed from the article talk page two threads in which I expressed my reasons for disagreeing with his actions. He has left behind, in their stead, only a summary of his position.

The dispute in the foregoing subsection was pursued in two threads at Talk:Chuck Missler between Hrafn and myself. By this edit, Hrafn put the second thread in an archive box, with the "reason" on the template being a statement of his position. I didn't accept this preferential presentation of his views. I corrected this bias and began a discussion on Hrafn's talk page, but Hrafn responded by removing both threads and placing them on my user talk page, again leaving only a summary of his point of view. He gave the explanation, "Deleting material not relevant to improving the article".

This is another reflection of Hrafn's unilateralist approach. He decided that my comments were mistaken, so he removed them from the page. (He also removed his own extensive comments but left in the gist of what he had argued.) In this, as in his disregard of the prior AfD's, he seems unable to deal with the concept of a good-faith disagreement. My comment was that the article should be restored to the form -- a full article instead of a redirect -- that it was in from its creation in 2005 until Hrafn's edit almost three years later. That was the form in which it survived two AfD's. Hrafn is certainly entitled to disagree, but it's preposterous to claim that expressing a preference for that form is "not relevant to improving the article".

Relief requested: I suggest that an uninvolved editor examine this edit and restore the userfied threads to the Talk:Chuck Missler page. A simple "undo" won't work because another editor, BlueMoonlet, has since engaged in a discussion with me. You could go back to this version, copy the last two threads, and paste them into Talk:Chuck Missler. A few polite words to Hrafn about the general tone of his comments might also be a good idea. JamesMLane t c 22:47, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I have restored the deleted conversations but put them in a {{hidden}} template. I wouldn't strongly object if they were taken out of the template. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 01:50, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Note that the action I just described was only on Talk:Chuck Missler. I am not touching Hrafn's talk page, per WP:Talk#User talk pages and WP:DRRC --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 01:52, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

JamesMLane's disruption of a talk page by WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT

In spite of first pointing JamesMLane to the box of advice at the top of WP:AFD that states "For problems that do not require deletion, including duplicate articles, articles needing improvement, pages needing redirects, or POV problems, be bold and fix the problem or tag the article appropriately", and then to the more explicit passage quoted above, this editor insisted on continuing to debate the point, argumentum ad nauseam. I therefore archived (and later userfied) this thread per WP:TALK#Others' comments "Deleting material not relevant to improving the article" and left as a summary this explicit WP:AFD passage. HrafnStalk 03:07, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorting through all this

  • In terms of Hrafn's redirecting the article, it was done in Feb 2008, 18 months after the previous AfD was closed. Furthermore, the previous AfD was speedy closed as a bad-faith nomination by an impersonation account/AOL proxy IP, not necessarily because the article should have been kept. While it might appropriate for Hrafn to start a 3rd AfD, he BOLDly redirected it, and this remained unopposed until just now. At this point, perhaps a discussion at WP:PM would be appropriate if he still feels a M&R is necessary.
  • Regarding the archiving of comments, I think it's rather inappropriate for Hrafn to have done that himself since it was an argument in which he was involved. It's fine for him to propose it be archived and waits for someone else to come along, or waits for JML to agree to it. I think it was fine for BlueMoonlet to restore and collapse it.
  • Regarding JamesMLane and WP:IDHT, I'm not sure. To me, it's pretty clearly to BOLDly redirect an article that only has a no-consensus and a "reject due to bad faith nomination" under its belt. Now that JML has opposed the redir, it should be reasonably discussed per WP:BRD. I'm not sure if that's happening, but I do consider the overall tone of this thread and the discussion at Talk:Chuck Missler to be generally assumptive of "poor faith" at this point. That is to say, you guys are focusing on each other when you should be focusing on the article.

In the end, you both need a little WP:TEA. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 08:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Fully agree, I've put some obvious advice on the article talk page and on JamesMLane's talk page on getting on with improving the article instead of fighting to keep an inadequate stub in place. Since it's a redirect rather than a deleted article, the previous versions are readily available to reduce re-typing, but the sorely lacking reliable sources must come first. . dave souza, talk 09:20, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm more than happy to discuss the issue of the topic's notability, and new sources that might establish this. I would agree that such (should it eventuate) would be a productive use of the article's talkpage. HrafnStalk 10:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Until somebody can move JamesMLane off the AfD issue, I will however (do my best to) stay well clear. HrafnStalk 10:33, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
As I've stated in response to dave souza at Talk:Chuck Missler#Report of editor assistance request concerning Hrafn, I care more about clarifying our general process than about the fate of this particular article. The policy is that if an editor believes that an article topic is nonnotable, he or she is certainly welcome to begin a discussion on the talk page, but where there's disagreement about notability, the appropriate forum for resolving it is WP:AfD.
What's important is that the dispute be resolved by consensus rather than unilaterally. I suppose that, in this case, that goal could be accomplished at WP:PM, but it's certainly not a typical merger. Hrafn merged very little information into List of evangelical Christians#Authors, omitting even the titles of Missler's non-self-published works. Hrafn made explicit that his real basis was alleged nonnotability of Missler. Notability disputes are the bread and butter of WP:AfD and that's where editors expect to find them. That's also where dave souza should bring his contention that the standalone Missler article was "an inadequate stub". JamesMLane t c 11:15, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Shorter JamesMLane: "I want an AfD, I won't change my mind and I won't change the subject" (to paraphrase Sir Winston Churchill). As nobody else seems to think you should have one, nobody else seems particularly interested in further discussing the subject of whether you should have one, and there seems to be a WP:CONSENSUS for a redirect on Talk:Chuck Missler (with JamesMLane's 'no redirect without AfD' being the lone dissent), I don't really think there's anything more to be said. HrafnStalk 12:33, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
As I told James at my user talk, I believe his concern is one that goes farther than this article, and may be a problem with the AfD process in general. I believe in his eyes, there should be an AfD to attempt to include more opinions from uninvolved parties, as frequently happens at AfD. However, the problem is that AfDs with a stated goal of redirection are generally frowned upon and may be speedily kept. As you aren't interested in deletion, Hrafn, you aren't going to go to AfD. But James won't AfD it either because it would likely be speedy kept as a POINTy nomination, and that would still say nothing about redirection. I think James' concern is warranted, but probably should be discussed where it will get a wider audience, such as WT:AFD or WP:VPP/WP:VPR. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 17:46, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Mendaliv, I appreciate your recognition of the broader issue. I feel some frustration that no one seems willing to think beyond the question of what Misplaced Pages should say about one nutjob anti-evolutionist. For example, no one has given an opinion on the Bizz buzz hypothetical that I presented above. It may well be that only in one of the policy forums you mention will editors think about that kind of question. JamesMLane t c 05:52, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
JamesMLane: from my viewpoint your "frustration" is mostly self-inflicted. Talk:Chuck Missler is purely for discussing "the question of what Misplaced Pages should say about one nutjob anti-evolutionist" (see WP:TALK) within existing procedures (which tend to 'speedy keep' AfDs nominated for redirection) and policy (which explicitly disavows AfD jurisdiction). If you want to discuss changing policy or procedures, the appropriate forum would be WT:AFD (as has already been pointed out to you). I don't know if you'd win support there (I suspect many consider AfDs to be purely for decisions that potentially require Admin action to implement and/or reverse, and that opening them up to purely non-Admin action decisions would result in a loss of focus, and be too difficult to enforce), but they'd at least listen to you because that is the right forum for discussing it. HrafnStalk 07:46, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Hrafn, do you have an answer to my question about Bizz buzz? Just curious -- I'm trying to understand your position. JamesMLane t c 09:46, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
JamesMLane: I WP:TLDNR it. Having now read it, the answer is yes, any editor could have redirected it instead of taking it to an AfD. But then, any editor could have reverted it. This being so, it is only a WP:CONSENSUS that can enforce a redirect, irrespective of whether this consensus comes from article talk or AfD. So in principle it is better not to clutter up WP:AFD with it (a principle that AfD regulars are willing to speedy-keep to enforce) -- particularly as it would be article regulars not AfD regulars who would have to enforce it. This is however all I have to say on this matter here as this is not the forum for it. HrafnStalk 10:59, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Elaine Kim Tags

http://en.wikipedia.org/Elaine_Kim

I am writing to request assistance in removing tags on this entry. Substantial changes were made to the article nearly six months ago which resulted in agreement by editors to keep the article. In the meantime, several others including myself have added additional references as they became known. A Misplaced Pages editor swept the article to Wikify it some months ago. I think the tags may now be irrelevant given the changes and addition of new content. Seireeni (talk) 01:26, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

A more basic question - is the article supposed to be about the individual or her company? The body of the article is about the individual yet it has a company infobox with the name of her company and company details. – ukexpat (talk) 02:09, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, the focus of the article is definitely wrong, it is supposed to be a BLP per the AfD discussion but it concentrates on stores and products which are the domain of an article on the company. This article needs to be cleaned up to focus on the subject and if a second article on the company is appropriate then that information should be split out. In the mean time I have changed the infobox for the appropriate one. Mfield (talk) 06:09, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Articles on Aidan Kelly and the NROOGD

Please note that I've added comments and new text for the following two articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Aidan_Kelly

http://en.wikipedia.org/New_Reformed_Orthodox_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn

I cannot cope with formatting, and I will leave it to someone else's editorial judgment about how to deal with the added text and the issues I've raised, but both of these now need cleaning up whenever someone can get around to it. Thanks.

Aidan A. Kelly, Ph.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AidanAKellyPhD (talkcontribs) 15:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I have undone your edit to Aidan Kelly - as you appear to be the subject of this article you have a conflict of interest and should discuss on the article's talk page any changes that you think ought to be made. I looked at the edit history of New Reformed Orthodox Order of the Golden Dawn and do not see any edits by you to that article. Please note however, Misplaced Pages is concerned with what is verifiable by reliable sources which may not be the "truth". – ukexpat (talk) 16:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I now see your edit on Talk:New Reformed Orthodox Order of the Golden Dawn which is the appropriate place to discuss it. – ukexpat (talk) 16:06, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Quarrelsome behavior on astrology articles

There are some individuals on the signs' articles that insist on going against Misplaced Pages consensus and I have a difficult time dealing with. The decision on the reliable sources noticeboard has been that just random internet sites do not constitute reliable sources (), but these individuals insist on undoing my removal of these sources (especially Elore.com). Their "frontline" seems to be on Scorpio (astrology) and Aquarius (astrology).

Am I right to remove these sources? I don't want to be seen as edit-warring. These guys have already attacked me in every venue possible here, and keep threatning editors in their edit summaries. Thanks for having a look, Nathanael Bar-Aur L. (talk) 01:59, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Someone963852 is now misusing warning templates on my talk page as a response to my reverting of his unsourced material in the signs' articles. Please help. --Nathanael Bar-Aur L. (talk) 23:18, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Nathanael: you should name the other editors and invite them to join this discussion. The thread you linked to at WP:RS/N doesn't sound terribly conclusive. There might be ways that you could get a discussion started with other people who care about astrology. If all else fails, and there are still only two people disagreeing, you could try WP:Third opinion. In a dispute with more than two people, you could open a WP:Request for comment. If you can show that www.elore.com is spam, there is always WT:WPSPAM for reporting it, but I'm not convinced yet. EdJohnston (talk) 23:23, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
The issue is mainly that if editors start adding traits to these articles sourced to every which site, these articles will quickly become one big mess. Every other day someone comes up with a new "trait" for the signs from some source. Opinions about the signs are a dime a dozen. This kind of mess can at least be avoided if sources are kept to the more authoritative sources, beside this clearly being more inline with WP:ASF and WP:RELIABLE.
Besides User:Someone963852, User:SotosfromGreece has also been assuming bad faith on my part despite all my efforts to explain my points and reasons, and has been disparaging my name on Talk:Scorpio (astrology) and making completely unfounded allegations. --Nathanael Bar-Aur L. (talk) 02:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Nathanael, I still don't see you notifying those two editors and inviting them to participate in this discussion. EdJohnston (talk) 16:18, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I have now invited them. Hopefully it can stay civil this time. --Nathanael Bar-Aur L. (talk) 17:45, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi everyone.

Mr. Nathanael, stop trying to sound all innocent. Also, quit trying to act like you're the judge on all the astro. articles. How do you know if those are so-called "spam" sites are not reliable ones?

Recently, it looks like you've shown alot of biasness towards the signs. There might be some traits added by other users saying that Aquarius are stunning and Scorpios are sexy (with sources of course) and you (Nathanael) with remove them stating that it's against the neutral point of view.

Really? If that is so, then why don't you remove all the non-sense from Taurus saying that they're the most beautiful astro sign and extremely graceful in their movements. (There are many more at the article and I can't list them all.) Wait, you can't because you are a Taurus and you favor that.

Hmm, doesn't that go more against the Neutral POV? "Oh oh, but it's from a reliable source!" you might say? Oh really, it sounds like you got it off from someone saying that it is . So you're telling me to read the Neutral Point of View when you're the one that should.

Well, yeah, I guess those are some of that reason why people might disagree with Nathanael and that he is trying so hard to be innocent. Thanks for reading and I hope that you could be my side! --kashimjamed (talk) 22:59, 21 January 2009 (UTC) - Someone963852

P.S.

...."on my part despite all my efforts to explain my points and reasons...." -Nathanael

Are you serious? You NEVER TRIED to reason "with all your efforts", instead, you give warnings..

I don't give a damn what it says, I just care that it is attributed to somebody who's opinion matters, and not some website you find on Google. Jeanne has attributed her claims to published astrologers I have actually heard of before. Frankly, I personally don't believe at all that the signs have attributable physical characteristics. If it was really up to me, these entire sections could go, but I respect Misplaced Pages's guidelines. As for the warnings I gave you, that is because you keep inserting unsourced material, and that is widely discouraged on Misplaced Pages. I have explained my reverting on your talk page and on the talk page of the articles in question. I don't see how I could have made it any clearer. --Nathanael Bar-Aur L. (talk) 00:13, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Physical Appearance comes from your parents' genes, not what your astro. sign is. kashimjamed (talk) 01:02, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
You see, now we think alike. That still doesn't give anybody the right to remove that material just because one doesn't agree with it. These are just the opinions of some well-known astrologers.

That said, there is still an issue of sources, and it is a critical one for these articles. I don't see elore.com as spam, just that it is very irrelevant in the wider field of astrology. I believe that the articles should contain more material from these guys: Category:20th century astrologers, Category:21st century astrologers. Their opinions should be "notable" if their status in the astrological community has been demonstrated in their Misplaced Pages articles. --Nathanael Bar-Aur L. (talk) 02:25, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I get what you mean. But your opinion, my opinion, the astrologer's opinion, it doesn't matter. It's suppose to be a fact. kashimjamed (talk) 21:52, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Question

Kellyplummer44 (talk) 17:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC)My article got the following response and I don't know what it means. Can you help me: Or, where do I get help??


It is proposed that this article be deleted because of the following concern: WP:N

I am not sure exactly which page you are referring to, your userpage was deleted for blatant advertising ("Pages that exclusively promote some entity and that would need to be fundamentally rewritten to become encyclopedic. Note that simply having a company or product as its subject does not qualify an article for this criterion.")
If you had created another page that was deleted for WP:N, that is notability, in short the subject of the article was not deemed notable enough, as confirmed by Reliable sources to merit inclusion in the encyclopedia. Mfield (talk) 17:16, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Please help with edit war

I would really appreciate some further input on Talk:Children of alcoholics#List of people. There are two editors (quite possibly one and a WP:SOCK) who insist on deleting parts of an article without any policy justification. I am open to discussion of the material and would like to build a consensus, but they repeatedly redo their edits, saying "we don't need a policy reason." I don't know where to turn, please help! --Elplatt (talk) 03:36, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Consensus looks to be against your addition, with yourself being the only editor to support your position. I appreciate that you think consensus hasn't been reached, but experienced Wikipedians tend to describe this sort of situation as "one editor going against consensus".
  • Don't accuse other editors of being sockpuppets, unless you are sure enough of your case that you're ready to post at our sock-puppet investigation page. In content disputes of this kind, it's generally best to avoid any accusation that other editors are acting in bad faith without solid evidence.
  • Policy states that Biographies of Living Persons must not contain any information about living people that's unsourced. Adding contentious information, or information that could be seen as defamatory, to any article or page is particularly likely to result in your edits being reverted, and possibly more serious sanctions. This applies to all articles and other pages at wikipedia. Of course, saying someone is a child of alcoholics potentially harms not only the named person but also their parents.
  • Edit warring is disruptive, so don't do it, even if you're right.
I hope this information is helpful. Regards, SHEFFIELDSTEEL 20:52, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Translating articles from other language versions of Misplaced Pages

Dear Friends, My question concerns the applicable formula of giving credit to the original creator of the Misplaced Pages entry in a language different than my target language. How is it done? Yours, Paweł Jędrzejko Pawel Jedrzejko (talk) 19:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The {{Translated page}} template can be added to the article's talk page. – ukexpat (talk) 20:16, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

POV/NPOV Dispute, Not Sure How to Proceed

There has been some disagreement concerning whether a certain statement on the Hamas article is POV or not. The dispute existed before I became active there. I thought that it had been resolved and the article itself returned to NPOV after having been tagged for POV. However, I recently found the statement returned along with the POV tag; and the argument has begun again. I really do not know what to do at this point. PinkWorld (talk) 14:22, 22 January 2009 (UTC)Pink
I may have jumped the gun here: it could be that a simple revert edit might have switched back to a statement ("best known for suicide attacks") that I had tagged as pov-statement and later dropped. It is hard for me to tell, though, because I am really inexperienced at editing actual articles. The earlier debate on whether or not to include that statement was . PinkWorld (talk) 14:54, 22 January 2009 (UTC)Pink

energy economics

Hi,

Here's the situation.

I've been working in the field of energy economics for some 20 years now. I've a PhD in economics. I've been a professor of economics since 2000. I've been an editor of Energy Economics, one of the three journals in the field, since 2003. I'm a member of the International Association of Energy Economists. And so on.

I think I can claim that I know the field of energy economics. It is an eclectic field, in which a variety of people from a range of disciplinary backgrounds use all sort of methods -- but all aimed at improving the understanding of energy prices, market, use, and production.

There are scholars who believe that one can model the economy as a thermodynamic system. This approach is commonly known as thermoeconomics, and the Misplaced Pages page is fine. Thermoeconomics is clearly identified as a heterodox school of economics. Energy economists are by and large orthodox economists, but most would be rather pragmatic when dealing with the fine print of economic dogma.

Over the last two weeks, a user by the name of Skipsievert has been inserting material that belongs to thermoeconomics into the page of energy economics. I've shifted the material to where it belongs (in my view), but he keeps putting it back.

Thanks for your help. Sorry if this request came a number of times; my internet connection is doing strange things.

Richard Tol Richard Tol 21:01, 22 January 2009 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rtol (talkcontribs)

This is a content dispute and so you should attempt to reach consensus with the other editors on the article's talk page. Having some reliable sources at hand wouldn't hurt either. – ukexpat (talk) 21:31, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I was asked by User:Skipsievert to look at the situation and I noticed this. Assuming good faith, Rtol is running into a common problem with experts, who are accustomed to writing about their own field based on their own knowledge. But Misplaced Pages has editorial standards for reliable sourcing, etc., and an expert in the field of an article may not be familiar with these, or may assert rights as an expert over other editors. I'll be looking at the history and seeing if I can advise the involved editors as to how to avoid conflict and edit warring, while at the same time preserving what could be valuable comment from an expert. --Abd (talk) 00:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Submarine

Hi I have been trying to add aditional inforamtion on the early history of submarines. The information is consistantly removed but is valid. In fact a later paragraph allueds to the origianl creator "Holland" I just dont understand. Is the inforamtion decided upon on writing style or something im not getting?If this is meant to be a place for information then please!! have the editors do the research before deleting valid inforamation for a topic. There is no point in me posting something to have it deleted within a minute. These editors cannot have checked the information by then. This is my first experience of wiki posting and i must say I am stratiing to douby much of the information here, maybe its time to return to the good old encylopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.114.141 (talk) 23:46, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi, there's a couple of pages you should read up on. WP:V and WP:RS. The information you are adding needs to be sourced correctly to adhere to Misplaced Pages's policy of verifiability. WP:CITE will tell you more about how to cite the information, you can use a tool like this one to generate the relevant cite code. Also, to avoid instant reversions by the vandal patrol you need to remember to use edit summaries with every edit so people can see what you were doing with your edit. You can also start a discussion on the article talk page to let people know if your edits could be considered controversial in any way. Mfield (talk) 23:53, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

External links on Dust collector

I believe the editor for this page http://en.wikipedia.org/Dust_collector is unfarely disallowing my link to a helpful maitenance checklist

baghouse.com/Periodic-Dust-Collector-Inspection-Recommendations.php Dust Collector Maintenance Checklist

while he is allowing2 of my competitors to list no perticural artical just their websites USAirfiltration.com has a large resource area for terminology, links to helpful sites, and detailed drawings and information about baghouse / dust collector issues. Cyclone Dust Collector Research Do it yourself Dust Collection for the home to small scale shop written by a lung-damaged engineer.

please help

<e-mail address redacted> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.254.206.174 (talk) 00:15, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I removed the USAirfiltration.com link as spam, so I think that should do it. – ukexpat (talk) 02:45, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Help is needed to establish a dialog

I encounter a problem with the WP user who does not accept logical arguments and behaves as an article's owner. The most recent example is here. I would like to avoid an edit war. What should I do first to resolve a problem?
Best regards
--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that the other editor has engaged in debate and is arguing from the sources, although you were not specific on what exactly you have taken exception to. You have been asked several times during the discussion to provide sources backing up your case. Concentrate on doing that, rather than the tone of other editors, and see if there is still a problem after you have done that. SpinningSpark 12:29, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I wouldn't say so. I always provide sources (mostly, from scholarly journals (jstor.org)). I always try to present my rationale on the talk page, and try to achieve a consensus. In contrast, the other editor prefer to do direct changes of the article. Sometimes, I am able to convince him to accept my POV, or to consider it seriously, but it demands enormous efforts. I never had such problems with other editros before.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:53, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Just ran across this. A few reality notes you can pick up with even a cursory examination of the Talk Page:

(1) Spinningspark is correct -- I've stuck to the sources entirely. In fact, as an aside, I've probably added well over 60% of the sources in this article now (which used to have massive completely unsourced sections). I could be off, but I haven't checked.
(2) In addition to that, I've probably myself made 20+ edits based on this editor's (Paul Siebert) complaints on the Talk Page alone (including hunting down sources to try to support individual points), many of which I didn't even want, just to attempt to prevent some mass disruption of the article.
(3) This editor also wants to take a large section of the historical page out chronological order based on a notion not only not supported by a majority of historians, but as far as I can tell, is supported by zero historians. His own fringe theory. I won't bore you with it, but you can read the discussion for yourself on the talk page.
(4) There's an obvious reason he's doing it (reading numerous comments on various Talk Pages) that I won't bore you with. He himself said above "Sometimes, I am able to convince him to accept my POV," which is not exactly the attitude one should have on Misplaced Pages.
(5) I received zero courtesy notices on my Talk Page about this section being started about me. In fact, I was actually spending a considerable amount of time going through and discussing his various theories with him, while even adding sources where a fact was thrown out, as this was on this board.
(6) He just attempted to take a section out of Chron order, delete several facts in it, and then won't allow any edits of it, claiming "let's discuss this first" -- on his changed section. I wish I weren't kidding, but just have a look at the history page.
(7) I'm pretty close to going to ANI with this editor. I've bent over backwards to work with him. Repeatedly. Mosedschurte (talk) 21:19, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of Orthogons & Design Article

It's very possible that the article was deleted by editors who believe they are familiar with the content but may in fact be coming from an entirely different perspective. The concern was raised that only one source was available for use of the term Orthogon in the context of the article (art). The main problem with the source is that it is in German and the text technical and cumbersome to translate. Other sources are available but not via the internet at this time. Instructions and information on how to apply these 12 dynamic (harmonic) rectangles, termed "orthogons", to art is currently being taught at the university level in the US as well as Europe. Their use in art is the point of the article. So far, no one has disputed the reference nor have they disputed use of the term in this context or the use of these structures by artists and designers (which is completely abundant on the internet). Editors who are artists/architects/designers should make the decision to delete or keep the article, rather than mathematicians/scientists/researchers. I would make pages from the book available in the article but the book was printed in 1956 and copyright issues are still a concern. Artists do not make a practice of publishing their most valuable information--they'll teach it at the university level but not generally in published form. To quote Kimberly Elam in her book, Geometry of Design, pp. 101: "In many schools of art and design the study of geometric organization begins and ends with a discussion of the golden section relationship to the Parthenon and an art history course. This is due in part to the separation of information that is a part of education. Biology, geometry, and art are taught as separate subjects. The content area of each that is congruent to the other is often neglected and the student is left to make the connections on their own. in addition, art and design are commonly viewed as intuitive endeavors and expressions of personal inspiration. Unfortunately, few educators will bring biology or geometry into the studio or art and design into the science or math classroom." I agree with Ms. Elam that the congruencies should be given air time--I don't like having to "make the connections" on my own and believe others deserve the same enlightenment. Unless someone can verify that this set of 12 "dynamic rectangles" have not been called "orthogons" for a very long time and the term not used in relation to art, the article should be kept. The entries were not unanimous that the article be deleted. Your assistance in what is of vital importance to artists and designers is much appreciated. Valriejensen1 (talk) 05:11, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

The deletion debate for the article is here. During the course of the deletion debate the article Dynamic rectangle was created with what those participating believed to be the verifiable information from the german source cited in the deleted Orthogons and design. The point I think you are missing is that on Misplaced Pages the criterion for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. Things you know personally, but are not published, are not suitable for inclusion. The concept also has to be notable, meaning it is discussed in reliable independant published works. Have you looked at the dynamic rectangle article and does that satisfy your complaint? If not, one of your options is to start a deletion review. Another option is to ask the deleting admin (who was User:Lankiveil) to userfy the article so that you can improve it before reposting it to mainspace. There is no rule (in general) against creating an article that has previously been deleted. However, before doing so you would be expected to address the issues of concern raised in the original deletion debate. I would strongly recommend that you create any new article in your userspace and then ask other editors to review it before moving it to mainspace. Merely recreating exactly the same material not acceptable behaviour and will attract admin action. SpinningSpark 11:59, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks so much for your clarifications and direction. The information in Dynamic rectangle is great and works well from the standpoint of math. However, this articles does not explain how anyone interested in design can actually use the orthogons to create a work of art, architecture, calligraphy, etc. It's not clear from the article how the orthogons relate to each other, which is vital to the discussion from the viewpoint of design. The technicality (and lack of practical application) of books on this subject (Jay Hambidge included), turns artists away. Orthogons need to be presented as a unit that can be applied (and understood) by artists, architects, etc. Even though it's written in German, Wersin's book has very informative images that an artist/architect can follow. I'm hesitant to post images from his book but will do so if that is advisable. Designers would use the Dynamic rectangle article for verification but would not wade through all the math. The Dynamic rectangle article could be a great reference for an article about how to practically apply the orthogons. Kimberly Elam explains, " that have been involved in education such as Le Corbusier, Josef Muller-Brockmann and Max Bill considered geometric organization and planning essential and fundamental to the design process." Just wish more published information on HOW this is done was available in English!Valriejensen1 (talk) 12:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
You probably cannot use images from Wersin's book on Misplaced Pages, it will still be in copyright and very unlikey that the images are available under a free licence. Using the book as a reference is ok though, we have plenty of German speakers here to check the refs. If the images in question are just diagrams (rather than works of art) we can create our own here on Misplaced Pages, drop a note on my talk page if you want help with something like that. As for the application of the mathematical figures to art, I thought use of the golden ratio, at least, was well known and references should not be hard to find. Take a look at this Google book search, it comes up with lots of relevant books, many of them with parts viewable online. Using refs like that in an article makes it much less likely to be deleted. SpinningSpark 15:46, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the guidance on using Wersin's images, your help in making these available would be very much appreciated. The books you reference are great examples of how the golden section has been applied. The rectangle is super-imposed over the work of art and that's basically it. "Extensions" in these books refers to math rather than instructions on how to begin and follow through creating a design using the relative measurements of the golden section. The work of Giorgio Morandi is a perfect example of how the measurements from an orthogon can be applied in any direction. The additional orthogons are useful because the golden section is somewhat unwieldy (long) and difficult to manage in a design. Books are available that detail in depth how artworks fit orthogons but finding material (outside of a university classroom) explaining how it's done is the trick. The orthogon and design article does that. I'll get the Wersin material to you pronto. Many thanks Valriejensen1 (talk) 20:50, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Another concern with the article, several of the terms for individual orthogons have been translated into English. Much like standard music notations are in Italian, keeping the terms in one language (with translations in quotes) keeps them more recognizable to researchers. Valriejensen1 (talk) 21:27, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Karen Weldin Stewart

I was Karen Weldin Stewart's campaign manager. What is posted on your site about her is dishonest in the extreme in that it cherry picks what it wants your readers to believe defines Ms. Stewart and even some of the information listed is inaccurate. Two items come to mind. First, she is no longer the Commissioner-Elect, she is the Commissioner. Second, in connection with her credit card issues, she had an American Express card, charged and paid in full and on time close to two hundred thousand dollars over two years while using the card for her business expenses. There was a ten thousand dollar dispute that was eventually settled. The earlier postings on her were so slanderous and libelous that they were radically changed owing to an attorney I had never met or talked to until he contacted me. I, Ms. Stewart and our staffs do not have the time to read every day to see if someone has tried to edit what is already there with the kind of lies, attacks etc. that were their at the beginning. As Mark Twain said, "A lie goes around the world before truth puts its boot on." Misplaced Pages mentions that they are interested in verification not truth. But once a slanderous posting is made, how many readers see it before it is corrected. The early posts had no verification. Having said all of this, I would like to have her name and all information about her erased from Misplaced Pages. How do I go about doing so? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yorttoille (talkcontribs) 13:58, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I have changed the Commissioner-Elect to Commissioner as that is clearly stale information. Clearly the article has simply been allowed to get out of date. I'm having a bit of a problem seeing how you can describe that as dishonest in the extreme in that it cherry picks what it wants your readers to believe. The credit card issue was raised during the election campaign and is reasonable to have in the article if done in a balanced way. However, it is referenced to The Delaware Talk Radio blog site. As a blog, that cannot be considered a reliable source for Misplaced Pages purposes and I have therefore removed it from the article. There is no guarantee that the issue will not be re-inserted if reliable sources are found for the story. Misplaced Pages is entitled to have an article on any notable person, you cannot insist that we do not; unless of course, you want to make an argument that Karen Stewart is not notable. SpinningSpark 16:30, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Barnstar editing all model sites

Dear Editor Assistant,

My problems concerns 2 articles: Christie Brinkley and Errol Sawyer.
There is an editor that calls himself "Barnstar" who says that he guards all the model sites (as a sheriff with a star on his breast). He has been rejecting numerous times the contribution to Brinkley's article that says that the African-American photographer Errol Sawyer discovered Christie in Paris in 1973 although it stems from a book of Michael Gross, "Models: The ugly business of beautiful women book", William and Morrow and Company, Inc, New York, 1995. pp 17-19, because he only has read the New York Magazine, September 2008, in which Brinkley does not mention Sawyer. "Barnstar" says that every reference should be retracable by Internet. As I studied Art History and Architecture/Building Engineering I think this is absurd and I told him that a lot of archives are not digitized yet.

Finally "Barnstar" leaves in Brinkley's article that Errol Saywer discovered, but now he takes away all the time African- American or African in front of American. I explain him that Obama also describes himself as black or African-American but it does not help. This is a sensitive subject as Brinkley said the following in the Michael Gross book: : ”I lived in a chambre de bonne with no telephone or bathrooms. It was so charming. The toilet was two flights down; the telephone was about a block and a half away. I had a little dog, and he had distemper. So I went to the phone to call the vet, and this guy, Errol Sawyer, this kind of loud, crazy black American photographer, said: “Oh, there you are! I spotted you one day at the telephone office, and I was hoping I would see you again because I’ve got a job, and the clients are looking for a girl just like you. Would you be interested? This is my address. I don’t have a telephone but you can just drop by" — And I went by, and he said: "Can you run home and put on something nice?” So photographer Errol Sawyer made Christie’s very first model pictures and introduced her later on with his pictures to John Casablancas of Elite Model Management in Paris.

Since "Barnstar" finally left Sawyer in as the one who discovered Christie, he also suddenly introduces photographer Patrick Demarchelier who has according to "Barnstar" introduced her to Eileen Ford. Now this is maybe said by Brinkley in New York Magazine, September 2008, but not in the book of Michael Gross of 1995. There one page further in the same book "Models" Christie says: "In the meantime Mike Reinhardt went back to New York and told Eileen Ford about me."
In the late seventies Christie went actually with her husband Jean-Francois Aillaux, after he got out of the army, back to New York and joined Eileen Ford Model Agency. Sawyer and everyone who was in Paris at at hat time knows that.

So there are two notes that contradict each other: one from the book of Michael Gross and one from a gossip magazine, New York Magazine.
According to "Barnstar" the latest prevails because it is the most recent or maybe because he knows it all and is actually a "star" himself. You see how easy it is to rewrite history ...

But worse is still to come. Since one week there is an internal link from Brinkley to Sawyer's article and "Barnstar" does anything to destroy it and he writes that Sawyer should not even be there etc. Of course he continues taking African away in front of American and he put 4 tags which I ask him to explain exactly but he refuses to do so. I need help because I find it very unfair that someone like Brinkley can actualy buy herself into Wiki with a interview set up by her P.R. office and a genuine artist like Errol Sawyer should not be able to get into Wiki because he does not have the means for buying an interview. On top of that a "Barnstar" is provoking an unresolved matter and therefore disqualification of Errol Sawyer.

I did not make the article of Sawyer but Yes, I edited Sawyer's article while I am besides his wife and agent also an academic and guest professor at the Technical University Delft in Holland and I know his archive very well and otherwise a lot of information would not be there at all. But I only used published and public references. To my amazement Roy Decarava, another very good African-American photographer is not in the Misplaced Pages either.

I would gladly hear your advise because Errol Sawyer deserves a good article. I understand there still has to be editing done and I would appreciate exact directions,

Mathilde Fischer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mathilde Fischer (talkcontribs) 15:08, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I am struggling to establish where all this discussion is supposed to have taken place, you have not provided any links. I suspect that there has not been any other than through edit summaries. So my first suggestion is to go back and discuss the issues properly either on the article talk pages or the user talk pages as appropriate. You may be pleasantly surprised at how collaborative people become if you approach them with a collaborative attitude. On the question of offline sources, you are right, offline sources are acceptable. Printed sources are often more reliable, and online sources can be frequently changed or disappear altogether. Many editors prefer online sources because it makes it easier for other editors to verify. However, the rule is that the source must be verifiable by others, not necessarily verifiable online or verifiable easily, and this includes visiting a library to read it. SpinningSpark 15:51, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
There are no links provided because no links would support Fischer's slander of me. That I refer to myself as "Barnstar" or that I claim to "guard" model articles is laughable. As for the articles she mentions, I've linked-to and thoroughly explained the relevant Wiki policies behind my edits numerous times on my talk page and Brinkley's article talk page. It's up to her to read them and understand them, but unfortunately she would rather slander me instead.  Mbinebri  14:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Request for page creation.

I am requesting administrative help creating a page for the ironic shock-rock/goregrind band Abörted Hitler Cöck, the name of which of course contains blacklisted keywords which is why I am asking for admin to create the page. Thank you for your time.

I apologise if I am posting in the wrong place but I thought that I directed here from another user on that page.

In regards to notability, The band has a significant underground following, and has been featured in specialist publications (which I am not involved in) focussing on the genre. I am a music journalist and have compiled an biography, for which I can provide the various sources.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Antmartain (talkcontribs) 20:08, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Before I do any such thing, how are you intending to establish notability of this band, there does not seem to be a lot out there. Before replying, please read WP:Notability (bands). SpinningSpark 22:55, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
And note that the correct place to request the creation of an article is WP:AFC. – ukexpat (talk) 15:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Tampering with a site

Someone named Jameson L. Tai has been changing the Misplaced Pages site of Thom Hatch, including adding personal material that Mr. hatch does not want made public for security reasons. This Tai has no reason to be editing this site with his poor grammer and sentence structure and ruining a perfectly legitimate site, all of which can be cited if necessary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.247.21.131 (talk) 20:27, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I think what needs to be understood is that the article Thom Hatch is not the Misplaced Pages site of Thom Hatch, rather it is a community consensus edited encyclopedia article about the subject, Thom Hatch. There is no tampering going on, anyone and everyone can edit wikipedia, that is one of the guiding principles of the project. What the subject would like to see in a biographical article about themselves is irrelevant and POV, providing the facts in question are notable, verifiable and do not infringe the subject's privacy. Are you Thom Hatch? If so this is something that you should be declaring, and you should be careful when editing the article due to conflict of interest guidelines. What specifically is the personal information that you feel should not be made public? (bearing in mind that this information all has to be verifiable by sources and consequently is readily available anyway).
What is concerning right now is that the article is completely unreferenced and has no in text citations at all. It is also not written as a biographical article but more of a literary review of his works. I am going to flag it with some maintenance tags to make sure this gets addressed.
Be also aware that reverting constructive edits without engaging in discussion is considered vandalism and that editing from different IP addresses so as to obfuscate is called sockpuppetry and both are blockable offences. If you are serious about improving the article constructively then I suggest registering for a login name and learning to discuss with other editors to work towards consensus and how to use edit summaries to explain your edits. Mfield (talk) 20:48, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
This is the 5th time in 24 hours that an IP from Broomfield, Colorado has reverted Thom Hatch to an extremely spammy version. No edit summaries were given and no explaination was left in the talk section. Messages left at first IPs talk page were ignored (they continued to revert from that IP even after messages were left). The subject of the article is from Colorado, so likely to be this IP. No idea who Jameson L. Tai is, or what info "Mr. hatch does not want made public" (information was removed from the spammy version, not added). NJGW (talk) 20:53, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Noting that the version I was viewing and talking about is actually the version that the IP was attempting to revert to. The stable version is referenced and follows guidelines. The version that the IP prefers is a liable candidate for speedy deletion by contrast. I do not see what issues there can be with the article in its stable state, the article is a BLP, not a literary review and all the information is easily available or a matter of public record. Mfield (talk) 21:04, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Mfield, thank you for notifying me regarding this discussion. I simply reverted an anon IP edit whom was earlier reverted as well by NJGW. I understand a genuine frustration if the editor was new to Misplaced Pages, but it does not seem so. In light of the situation, I will assume good faith and say this may not be Thom Hatch, but reviewing this made me think otherwise. - Jameson L. Tai 21:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Still at it, now with a named account. I opened a report at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Thom_Hatch. NJGW (talk) 00:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

meme editing specifically deletion of mememetrics

I submitted a report of an empirical quantitative approch to research on memes which was posted on the meme site for approximately three months. My contribution describes a new science of mememetrics that differs from psychometrics. A drastic editing of the site omitted my contribution and included material that I believe has less relevance. How do I appeal to restore my contribution? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.76.138.24 (talk) 04:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Which page are you concerned about? I couldn't find it, I'm afraid. --AndrewHowse (talk) 05:10, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Oh, and if the material you added was original research, then it would be proper to remove it. Content here needs to be verifiable by reference to reliable sources. --AndrewHowse (talk) 05:15, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

One-on-one advice needed when creating articles

Hello,

I created an article, Affiliate Window, and it was deleted due to G11. I have since reviewed the article and included a number of references to make the article "notable" as the admin who was overseeing it said it needed in order to be published. However, it was deleted again. I adhered to the admin's guidance, however, they have failed to provide me with one-on-one guidance.

I now have two articles hosted on my User page located here:

I do not want to publish Affiliate Window without it being approved because the admin said it would be protected from being created again.

If you have any questions, please let me know. Hopefully we can work through this and get the page published.

Regards GeorgeGaz (talk) 10:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's deletable as it stands, but it still reads like advertising. I think it might get fairly well pruned. I also suggest you make them into one article about the holding company. You could then create redirects from the other subsidiaries. --AndrewHowse (talk) 14:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Doesn't really look notable to me. Britain's 18th fastest growing technology company? Do the 17 ahead of it have their own pages? My bet is no. And if you do have a conflict of interest here (some relationship with the company) then you really shouldn't be starting pages on it. Let someone else do it. And if no one else does... well that goes back to notability. LSD (talk) 00:00, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Disputed Articles

My question is what is the criteria to dispute an article. I've noticed people just give an opinion and do not offer anything constructive. It seems to me that NPOV standards are being followed so I can't understand what the dispute is all about. My specific article was in the crime fiction area entitled "Hard Boiled". I felt that the critcism was simply for critcisms sake so there wasn't anything I could think of in order to resolve the dispute.

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by MattCamm (talkcontribs) 16:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

There are ascending levels of dispute resolution set out at WP:DR - did you try that?. – ukexpat (talk) 17:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
The first level of dispute resolution is to discuss the issues on the article talk page. I see no discussion there whatsoever - it's hard to give you a view on a dispute that is not being vocalised. This page should be your second port of call after first making a genuine attempt to collaborate with the other editors. SpinningSpark 14:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I want to understand why my contribution has been rejected

Hello,

I'm new to wikipedia and willing to contribute the best I can. The first contributions I made are related to a topic I know quite well: IP softphones. Yesterday, I spent time adding an entry in the table at the link below: http://en.wikipedia.org/Comparison_of_VoIP_software I did my best to follow the wiki syntax I didn't know before and to follow the wikipedia guidelines (no external link, etc.) After publishing, I was happy and proud to see that it worked, and that my entry (details about the softphone of eyeP Media) was included in the page !

This morning (French time), I checked the page again: what a disappointment! My entry had been deleted overnight by MrOllie who didn't explain me why he did that and I don't know how to reach him. Some people may argue that I added a description of a software developed by the company I'm working for but I truly believe that my entry is very valuable for anybody consulting this comparison page http://en.wikipedia.org/Comparison_of_VoIP_software, which is full of proprietary software developed by companies much bigger than us. Please help me to understand...

cheers,

jfhoup —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jfhoup (talkcontribs) 17:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It was probably deleted as linkspam - with a conflict of interest you should not be adding links to your business/company/employer etc. Please discuss on the article's talk page. – ukexpat (talk) 17:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Concur with UKexpat. I was also going to say it was likely also as the package did not meet the notability guideline, however the comparison article seems to be completely unreferenced and includes other software packages that are not notable enough to merit their own WP article (something that needs addressing anyway). Bring the matter up for discussion on article talk to avoid the COI issue as it doesn't seem, from a cursory look, that the package your company makes is any less notable than some of the others, although impartial editors more conversant with the area should be the ones to decide that. Mfield (talk) 17:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Supernatural episode guide

There is currently a dispute ongoing as to the format of the episode guide for supernatural the tv show. As evidenced by List of Supernatural episodes It is now getting to the point where reverts are continuing semi regularly and yet the main editor doing this reverting refuses to discuss the issue and just continues to force the format he prefers. Instead of revert waring which achieves nothing and only disrupts the wiki, I would appreciate some outside oppinions so as to draw this matter to a close. Personally I am in favour of the more in depth page as it provides all the info one needs on one page without the need for redundancy (such as the now extra 4 pages which were created that were at one point served by the one main page). Also the original style followed many formatting conventions such as seen in the episode guids of grey's anatomy, prviate practice, reaper and my name is earl. In short the original formatting was much more user friendly IMHO. However I do concede that the new format is more sparse and less word heavy being a simple list of episode titles, however I think it sacrfices too much utility in favour of minimality. -- 82.41.44.188 (talk) 00:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Russell29 is clearly an experienced and skilled editor so it is quite baffling that he refuses to enter into debate. I can only conclude that this is deliberate rather than a newbie oversight and is really not the collaborative attitude that is expected here. On the question of who is right, that is not very clearcut. A look at the guideline WP:Television episodes#Examples of good pages shows examples of both styles so there appears to be no Misplaced Pages preference. You might consider starting a debate with the purpose of tightening up the guidelines in these cases. Possible venues are the Misplaced Pages Talk:Television episodes or Misplaced Pages Talk:WikiProject Television. However, those sort of pages are not highly frequented and it is often better to start debates at WP:VPP and move to the relevant page later. SpinningSpark 15:18, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for the response Spark. It is much appreciated. I personally think both formats work, dependant upon which show its describing. Things such as lost which has an episode synopisis for each episode is more suited for the simple episode list, where as less popular shows like supernatural which don't have individual pages for each episode seem more fitting for the semi synopsis approach it takes. I will however continue to try and engage the editor in discourse about this issue so that we can draw it to a close amicably, however thus far he has ignored my attempts, so hopefully he will take heed at some point as multiple users continue to revert his edits. -- 139.153.13.48 (talk) 12:53, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Well if he is trying to single-handedly swim against the tide then one of two things will happen. He will either get the message and start discussing, or he will end up on the administrators notice board for edit warring. Looking at his edit history, he does not seem to be very big on talk pages. This is a shame, because he is clearly a prolific editor. He does engage in some discussion though, so there is still hope. SpinningSpark 17:09, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

What to do if the topic for a concept in common use is "appropriated" by an academic discipline?

Sorry, but the following is quite long. I have been thinking about what to do for several days and really need some guidance.

At the top of every Talk page it says that: "This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject". Where can I discuss whether it is OK to disambiguate a topic? And is it a "fork" if you set up a new topic for the "common usage" concept of a word, leaving the existing material (which covers a concept of the same word, as developed by an academic field) on the existing topic?

I need an article dealing with ordinary concept of Culture, to be linked to by another article I work on.

Two weeks ago checking the content of a linked topic Culture, I found what seemed to me a very mixed up and unclear article. That was OK - not unusual. What surprised me though was thatTalk:Culture was headed up with three giant Wikiproject notices saying the article was rated Good, plus two other banners to the same effect. So I initiated a reassessment of the quality of Culture. Within a couple of days at least two others had agreed the article was disorganised and unsatisfactory, then suddenly, and without discussion, another editor stripped out half the article and placed a large amount of new material dealing mainly with the history of meanings of the word in American anthropology (all in the one edit), so the article became a different "animal", and explained that he had revamped the article on the Talk page. I expressed doubts about his action, and suggested he might like to revert it, which did not happen. I then kept quiet till the review process was completed after a week (I delisted the article, and explained why).

I have not editesd the article since the review (aside from the re-rating edits) but have watched with mounting fear as more and more edits have been made by that editor, as it were hijacking the article away from dealing with the concept as in ordinary usage. Instead, the article now gives a lengthy history over the past century of how the meaning of culture (being the field of study of American anthropology) has changed, littered with the many names of people in the field who have modified the idea of culture in one way or another.

Apparently, using the American anthropology concept, the word Culture "refers to all non-genetic human phenomena" (part way through the intro. section). A wide definition indeed!

I have searched Google books etc, and the ordinary usage concept of Culture is alive and well in many fields.

So should I try to discuss the matter on the talk page (inspite of what it says at the top). Is it a "fork" to disambiguate this topic in this situation? Is it wrong to just disambiguate it without further discussion - given that I made the general point of need for wider coverage when doing the review? --AlotToLearn (talk) 05:38, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

First of all, you are absolutely right to discuss this issue on the talk page, that is exactly what it is for - discussion on improving the article. The injunction against discussing the topic is meant to prevent, for instance, a debate at a Star Trek article over whether phasors or light sabres are a more powerful weapon, it does nothing to improve the article. Disambiguation in Misplaced Pages terms usually means disambiguating between articles with similar names but different subjects or aspects of the same subject. There are two main ways of doing this; dab pages and hat notes. You can find an explanation of these and when you should them at Misplaced Pages:Disambiguation. SpinningSpark 14:24, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Syed Sharifuddin Pirzada

I have been editing the article for Syed Sharifuddin Pirzada, I was removing the POV statements since this is a living persons biography, the person has come back and reverted all my edits to some that are clearly POV and the username seems to indicate someone from the same family. I'm not sure how to proceed at this point, he has made legal threats in the talk page for that article which is really not conductive to a civil discourse. I don't have any stake in this article as I was just editing it because of the POV flag on it. I don't know if someone could review the article to see if I'm being to stringent in enforcing the sourcing of the article. Gordie (talk) 17:21, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Completely agree, material like that is utterly inappropriate, I have reverted it. The article is also totally devoid of meaningful references. If it were not for the fact that he is a former Attorney General, and hence automatically notable for that, I would have nominated the article for deletion. WP:BLP requires the strictest referencing of articles on living persons. Any unreferenced statements should be immediately deleted. Can you give me a diff to the legal threat, I could not find it. SpinningSpark 17:45, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Digital Library Federation article COI and citations comment

To Whom It May Concern:

I'm still getting my feet wet, and recently wrote the Digital Library Federation article. Overnight I received a COI message, and took it to be a good faith perspective, and responded with what I thought was a sound argument. The editor that posted the COI wrote back with a very uninformative response, and now I'm wondering if they're just trying to be difficult. It almost appears to be some sort of misanthropic behavior or Misplaced Pages spam. See the thread that's begun at http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Digital_Library_Federation.

I'm not sure how to handle this situation. Also, there is a posting that I haven't cited any resource for my article. Besides the fact that I posted an under construction banner as a way to let people know I'm still working on the citations, there are in fact one external link citation and several internal link in-text citations.

Both of these issues are discouraging to me. I'd like to continue my participation in Misplaced Pages, but am not having a very encouraging start. Diglib (talk) 19:04, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Please read WP:COI - if you are connected to the subject matter you are strongly discouraged from writing about it. Also, your user name is of concern because in the context of your edits, it contravenes the user name policy. – ukexpat (talk) 19:53, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Huwala

For the article Huwala, I have been bold and gone through the article and removed most of what I thought was not relevant to the subject matter, in particular, discussion of the Sunni Arabs and long lists of tribal names. Subsequently, my edits were reverted. I reverted again, asking for sources to the information (though admittedly, there are no decent sources online for this topic) but it was reverted once more.

As I am relatively new, do you have any recommendations?

Bladeofgrass (talk) 20:31, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for asking rather than embarking on an edit war. This is a content dispute so the next step is to discuss the changes on the article's talk page. – ukexpat (talk) 21:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Saeed Kamali Dehghan's entry

Dear Friend, I'm new in Misplaced Pages and I have just contributed : http://en.wikipedia.org/Saeed_Kamali_Dehghan It has some warnings, while I have provided the article with full details, could you please check if the article is ok or not? Best, Jean Lapomme —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeanlapomme (talkcontribs) 09:07, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

That's certainly a huge improvement. I think you can remove the cleanup templates at the top of the article now. If anyone still has issues they can tag the individual problem statements, having the whole article tagged is no longer appropriate. SpinningSpark 18:34, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I have done little more clean up, removed the tags and added project templates to the talk page. – ukexpat (talk) 18:49, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Jewish exodus from Arab lands

Hi, someone called Mose of Kabul keeps editing Jewish exodus from Arab lands and refuses to enter into a discussion. His English is poor and his editing makes the article unreadable and is prone not to address the issues. His changes are controversial and as such do require discussion first. Telaviv1 (talk) 08:42, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I cannot agree with your characterisation of Mose as having poor English. The English in his last edit strikes me as being very good. I agree though, that the page formatting is often broken by his edits. This in itself is not really a good reason for reverting an editor, page formatting can always be fixed. Reverting for this reason should not be done unless it would really require an unacceptable amount of work to fix. I also have to dispute your characterisation of him as refusing to enter into discussion. He references his edits (although I have not checked their quality) and leaves edit summaries. Your reversion of his last edit on the other hand, reverted without explanation a very large amount of material without explanation. This is really only acceptable for common vandalism, and even then a short "rv v" comment is normal. It is not acceptable at all to treat a good faith editor in this way. So where has he refused to enter into discussion? I do not see your name on the article talk page or his user talk page inviting him to discuss. So before coming here with requests for others to get involved, try opening a debate on the talk page rather than just reverting, which is edit warring and frowned on at Misplaced Pages. I do have a couple of concerns with Mose though, one of which is that all his edits are marked as minor; I will take this up with him on his talk page. A more serious concern is that there are ref numbers embedded in his text which are not wiki markup and lead me to believe that the text is copy-and-pasted from somewhere else. That is a copyvio concern but I could not get a match with anything online so we should assume good faith for now. SpinningSpark 13:39, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Requests for review of actions of User:Waterjuice.

Waterjuice has made the claim that my edit by addition of dubious tag to the Vietnamese American article openning sentence was racism vandalism, and threatened to block further additions to Misplaced Pages. I have made a good faith effort to discuss the tag which I added, which was removed without reaching a consensus, and thus I added it back. How is this dubious flag vandalism? --207.114.206.48 (talk) 13:33, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

What is it that you are claiming is dubious? You have tagged the definition of Vietnamese American as a resident of the United States who is of Vietnamese heritage. That seems perfectly reasonable to me, I cannot understand what you are disputing. SpinningSpark 13:54, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Ah, I hadn't read the discussion on the talk page. Well, as you were advised there, if you want to change the definition, find a source. The U.S. Census Bureau in this document says The foreign-born population refers to people who were not U.S. citizens at birth. It does not say they have to be U.S. citizens now to be counted. That might be so, but it doesn't say that. You need to find a reference that says that. SpinningSpark 14:25, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
You can also find a Q&A page at the Census Bureau site where I am sure they can answer this question. SpinningSpark 14:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Thank you I will endeavor to find such a reference to be cited in the discussion. However, my edit was being flagged as vandalism by Waterjuice, because he has a POV that my edits were racists, which was not my intention. Can I be assured that it is not flagged in such a manor?--207.114.206.48 (talk) 02:27, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Not until you remain anonymous. Gregorik (talk) 17:28, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

plagiarism?

I sincerely admire the wiki resource, which I sincerely admire, often use, and to which I contribute financially. And I with trepidation raise an issue as to, to be generous, unfair use.

Forgive me if I am being sort of old technology, but do you think - as do I - that the entry on Charles B. J. Snyder unfairly reproduces full passages and paragraphs from my own article in the Times of 1999?

Here is the wiki version, added by Eurodog in April 2008:

Wiki: In late 1896, Robert Maclay sent Snyder on a study trip to London and Paris. The New York Tribune reported that Snyder was particularly impressed with the late Gothic-style Hotel de Cluny in Paris, a few blocks south of Notre Dame. The wide courtyard facing the street gave Snyder an idea: pull back from the corners to the quiet, less expensive inside lots and build around a courtyard to insure light and air. He expanded that idea to the through-block H-plan, which became his signature design: The first such school, PS 165, was completed September 1898, a little more than a month after the death of Maclay, July 28, 1898.

Here is my 1999 article:

Gray: In late 1896, Maclay sent Snyder on a study trip to London and Paris, and The New York Tribune reported that the architect was particularly impressed with the late Gothic-style Hotel de Cluny in Paris, a few blocks south of Notre Dame. The wide courtyard facing the street gave Snyder an idea -- pull back from the corners to the quiet, less expensive inside lots and build around a courtyard to insure light and air. He expanded that idea to the through-block H-plan, which became his signature design: The first such school, P.S. 165, on West 108th Street near Broadway, was completed in September 1898.

And, if I may ask ... where'd he get that photograph of Snyder? Which I believe is also copied and pasted from my Times article.

Very sincerely,


Christopher Gray "Streetscapes" Columnist, Sunday Real Estate Section, The New York Times 246 West 80th Street New York City 10024 voice: 212... fax: 212-799-0542 Hope I have the tilde thing right 69.86.226.55 (talk) 19:41, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Of course you are right, that is not acceptable. I have deleted the copyvio paragraph and replaced it with a brief sentence. As for the photograph, is claimed to be from here but that is now a dead site. Its licence information says that it is in the public domain because it was first published prior to 1st Jan 1923. This seems perfectly possible, do you have any information to the contrary? SpinningSpark 20:37, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe my editor is reasonable

My web site was listed under "External links" on 3 pages previously: "First moment of area" (http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/npajkic/solid_mechanics/first_moment_of_area/index.html), "Second moment of area" (http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/npajkic/solid_mechanics/second_moment_of_area/index.html) and "Vibrations" (http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/npajkic/vibration/undamped_free/index.html & http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/npajkic/vibration/viscously_damped_free/index.html). I must point out that I NEVER POSTED MY WEB SITE ON WIKIPEDIA, I guess someone else must have. In any case, I bought a new domain name (http://www.engineeringaerospace.com) a couple of days ago and decided simply to update the links from the old addresses to the new ones. Nothing more nothing less. However the editor (Vsmith) decided the content was spam and removed the links altogether.

If you have a look on the pages in questions, they are EQUAL if not even BETTER than the content provided on Misplaced Pages. I stand by this because I am a professional aerospace engineer who knows what he's talking about. Therefore there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for anyone to remove the links which were posted on Misplaced Pages (by SOMEONE ELSE!) just because I, the publisher of the site, decided to update the links from non-working versions to the working ones.

Please consider this request for inclusion seriously. I have received praise in past for my web site and I believe that it is in public's best interest that they remain on the web sites they were ALREADY LISTED ON.

Regards, Nebojsa Pajkic —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nebojsapajkic (talkcontribs) 06:00, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Nice site, I agree that it is unfair to characterise it as spam, there is no hint of advertising in it. However, it is self-published and so has a reliability issue. Read our external links guideline especially the What should be linked section. The question to be answered here is what is your site adding that could not be directly written into the Misplaced Pages article? If you think there is a case, take it up on the talk page of the article. SpinningSpark 14:12, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi Spark, thank you for your reply and taking time to see my web site. I thought about what my web site has to offer that is not already on the Misplaced Pages page and I have come up with a number of things: "Irregular Boundaries" section, "Composite Shapes" section, problems and worked solutions which anyone can follow (and this is really important because most students learn by following examples) and a lot more detailed graphics. However, above all stands the fact that my material was written by a knowledgeable scholar who holds legitimacy of his credentials rather than an anonymous contributor of Misplaced Pages.

Furthermore I would like to point out that I learned yesterday that another person attempted to post a link to the same web site (who is not affiliated with me, but subscribed to my newsletter where I raised this issue), and her contribution was also rejected and deleted. I have not heard from here what was the reason she received. So how is this justified by vsmith?

Thank you, Nebojsa 08:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nebojsapajkic (talkcontribs)

Basal Metabolic Rate

I have been contributing to the article Basal Metabolic Rate, but a user named "WhatamIdoing" has been erasing my postings and my attemtpts to answer Misplaced Pages suggestions for improvement to make the article better. The thrust of the dispute seems to be the relevance of monitoring heart rate using gas analysis versus going to a gym and working out with weights to maintain a higher BMR through increased skeletal muscle accumulation. This is based on two references and the provider of that suggestion does not state his point of view (i.e. does he work at a health club.) I have been consistently answering questions with references and have stated my point of view. So I am curious why the current editors are blocking my contributions. I have tried communicating but they have erased my most recent contributions without explaining why I was censored. I was wondering what the process of mediation entails? I have looked up the two references that are used in the first paragraph by "Arcadian" in the talk page for the feedback and supported by "whatIamdoing", and the references do not establish the kind of precedent that is implied by this new addition. There are hundreds of articles that posit the opposite point of view, namely that aerobic exercise monitored by accurate technology corresponds to gas analysis. Weight training is helpful in some ways, but BMR is an aggregate measurement that measures organ efficiency, not muscle efficiency. So the addition of the quote in the lead paragraph denying the importance of aerobic measurement and training for BMR understanding is inconsistent with the principles of Exercise Physiology. In the classic text by McArdle, BMR is clearly explained as being predominatly influenced by the liver not the muscle tissue. As we age sarcopenia reduces muscle tissue mass and fat tissue mass (adipocytes) take/s on a more significant or greater role in determining BMR. This gives women an advantage in the aging process as I explain in the talk section. Thus women live 7 years longer than men across the lifespan in every culture predominantly because of the hormone differences that do not predispose them to muscle mass advantages. The two Journals that are quoted in the first paragraph fail to explain that phenomenon, and indeed most of the articles reviewed by American Clinical Journal of Nutrition and the Applied Physiology Journal speak of the importance of walking as a way to manage BMR and this is advocated by the Surgeon General, the American College of Sports Medicine, the CDC, Kaiser Permanente, American College of Cardiologists, the American Physical Therapy Association, the American Diabetes Association and several more. Weight training has a role, but it is not predeterminate for BMR management as is currently implied by the recent edit which failed to explain the purpose of the additon to the main paragraph and it seems to deny the principle thesis that BMR is a measurement of oxygen utilization which can be approximated by heart rate monitoring.

Muscle tissue emphasis actually raises blood pressure and recent research that I would be willing to post, posits that endocrinal imbalances frustrate type two tissue training for diabetic persons who wish to manage their glucose utilization more efficiently.

The reference for Exercise Physiology was listed previously in the Biochemistry section of the article but it seems that "Arcadian" and "whatamidoing" injected their sources from Clin Nut and Joural of Applied Physiology in the section that lists the order of importance of organs for BMR (pg 134 in McArdle's text on Exercise Physiology.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by BRileyPTA (talkcontribs) 09:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your consideration and if I can be assisted with the matter of why "WhatIamdoing" is erasing and blocking my ideas and references for support I will continue to contribute.

Sincerely,

<e-mail address redacted> —Preceding unsigned comment added by BRileyPTA (talkcontribs) 08:19, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

How to deal with editor insists on inserting unsourced material

I am having difficulties dealing with an editor who insists on including unsourced material in an article, has repeatedly removed citation needed tags and is behaving uncivilly.

The recent revision history of life expectancy shows the problem. They inserted some unsourced material . I removed portions that were of doubtful verifiability, made some other edits to clarify wording, and added a fact tag, indicating the need for citations to clarify/back up the statistics.

They reverted the deletion, with the summary "do some research first." I consider the summary to be a) rude, b) inappropriate, since as I understand it, it is the responsibility of the person proposing additions to provide documentation to provide sources for material that is questioned, and c) does not explain why they deleted the tag or the other changes.

I undid the reversion (because they hadn't offered explanation) moving the challenged material to the article's talk page. Talk:life expectancy#Gender differences (per WP:BRD), noting the move of the material in my edit summary .

They subsequently restored the material and again removed the fact tag, and undid several other changes I made to the paragraph, with no explanation.

I did contact the user on their talk page, regarding some of these problems.User talk:Ryoung122#Insertion of challenged unsourced material and removing fact tags

However they have continued to behave rudely, claiming that, while it was okay for them to "mass-reverted the article because the changes you made could not be undone individually." They said of my more focused change of deleting specific sentences and editing others "you should give this time to amalgamate before blanket-undo's." And calling a suggested rephrasing "ridiculous."

Suggestions of how to deal with this would be appreciated. Or would this question more appropriate for witiquette alerts?


Also a side question, in edit summaries I have been using the term "dubious" (borrowed from {{dubious}} to indicate material that is of doubtful verifiability. Is there a preferred shorthand?

Thank you. unsigned edit by user:Zodon

You are quite right to tag facts which you think are dubious. All facts on Misplaced Pages should be referenced. Some common sense needs to be applied here and not over-reference an article, but if a fact is challenged then the onus is on the inserting editor to find a reference, not on the deleting editor to "do some research first" as you were rather uncivily told to do. What to do: you should continue to attempt civil discussion with the other party even if they are uncivil themselves. If they continue to remove tags then warn the user this is not acceptable practice, as you have already done on their talk page. I would counsel against using the templates, templating regular users is thought bad etiquette by many and can be annoying. A personal message is more appropriate in these cases. If you get nowhere with that, you can take the issue to WP:ANI after first warning the user that you are going to do so if the behaviour continues. It is unlikely that the administrators there will get involved in arbitrating what the content of the article should be, but they will take action on breaches of policy, the relevant ones here being WP:V and WP:CIVIL. SpinningSpark 23:06, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Request for assistance with translation

Hi, I'm not sure if this is the right place for a request like this. If not, please point me to the right one. I tried to translate a section of an article from dewiki. It is currently in my sandbox. Since I'm not a native-speaker I would like to ask, if someone could be so kind and review my translation. I'm sure I made a lot of mistakes. Feel free to edit it. Thanks in advance, brgds, --R.Schuster (talk) 16:22, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Sure I will take a look for you and will leave a message on your talk page when I have finished. I do have one initial concern though: presumably your intention is to add this as a criticism section to JACDEC? If so, I think there may be an undue weight issue - the criticism section will have more content than the rest of the article. – ukexpat (talk) 16:31, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi Ukexpat, thanks for the fast reply! It is true that the criticism section is quite excessive. I'll translate more of the content from de:JACDEC. Brgds, --R.Schuster (talk) 16:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Allegations of state terrorism by Russia

An apparent defender of the Russian state repeatedly wants to categorize the article Allegations of state terrorism by Russia under Category:Conspiracy theories. The editor states that "The allegations themselves are conspiracy theories" No evidence of anyone engaging in a conspiracy against Russia by placing material in this article in presented, which would in any case be a very doubtful reason for adding it to the Category:Conspiracy theories. What to do? Hmains (talk) 19:19, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried discussing this on the article's talk page or with the other editor on their talk page? – ukexpat (talk) 20:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Content Management System article - External Links

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:35, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I had a site up on the external links for the Content Management System article. It pointed people to a huge list of CMS systems and a number of CMS reviews and articles on how to select. Every single visitor that came from Misplaced Pages commented on how glad they were to find the page in question. 3 times now, Bonadea has removed the link without warning. I've been told to post on the talk page for content management systems, which I did.. and nobody has replied for several months.

Please advise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.161.192.40 (talk) 17:54, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the History of the article, I see that the link removed by User:Bonadea is to a commercial site, Lexel. Bonadea's note cites (rm inappropriate link per WP:EL) If you follow that link you will see that it suggests that Links to be avoided include:

Links to web pages that primarily exist to sell products or services, or to web pages with objectionable amounts of advertising.

which would explain the removal. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Further to the above, I don't see your comment on the article talk page but I do see lots of comments about why commercial links are removed. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
My link request is right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Content_management_system#CMS_Listings_and_ReviewsCmscritic (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:27, 5 February 2009 (UTC).

Technical issue

Resolved – User referred to WP:VPT.ukexpat (talk) 03:41, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I experience a technical problem with the Holodomor talk page. My computer (Red Hat Enterprise) restarts immediatelly after I try to open a talk page. This never happens when I do that using Windows computers, and never happens when I enter other WP pages from Linux computers. I use different Linux computers with the same result (immediate reboot). Can anybody advise me to whom should I contact to resolve the issue.
Thank you in advance,
Best regards,
--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:28, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

You might try WP:VPT. Good luck! --AndrewHowse (talk) 19:34, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, I'll try.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:42, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Huwala

Hello All,

I recently made some significant changes to the article Huwala. The article was unreferenced, and contained information not relevant to the subject matter. I deleted it, and atttempted to clean up the article. However, my changes were reverted. I've asked for references in the edit summary and its talk pages, but I'm getting nowhere. Apart from reverting again, what should I do? Bladeofgrass (talk) 18:24, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

That was a pretty substantial edit. Now that it has been reverted you should reach out to the other editor (User:H. Totti) on their talk page. – ukexpat (talk) 18:46, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I've tried contacting the other editor through his/her talk page. How long should I wait for a response? Bladeofgrass (talk) 21:05, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
If you look at their edit history that will give you an idea of when they are online and how often they edit, take it from there.
I would also advise you that just because material is unreferenced does not mean that it has to be immediately deleted (unless it is a biography of a living person). This might be the right thing to do, for instance copyvio material or probable hoax, but is not always best. A better plan would be to replace unreferenced material with some referenced material - of course this involves more work than just deleting but is not so shocking to other editors watching the page. You can also do this piecemeal, one section each week as you find the material, and again, other editors are less likely to find this problematic as they can absorb the changes in bite sized chunks. SpinningSpark 23:24, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

regarding neutrality of links for "electronic laboratory notebook".

I'd like a second opinion on the entry "electronic laboratory notebook". Disclaimer; I am affiliated with a company that sells commercial electronic laboratory notebook software. It could be argued that it is in the commercial interest of my company to mention its name on this page. However that is not what I am asking for. I just want someone else to take a look at the obvious piece of blogspam posted in the links section and take an objective look at the discussion surrounding it and the frequent self-promotion of the web site belonging to the user at 128.200.86.85. The top "external link" that this user frequently posts is not useful, informative, independent or neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Invasifspecies (talkcontribs) 20:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Al-Qaeda involvement in Europe

Hello, On the page Al-Qaeda involvement in Europe we are having some trouble deciding whether or not the attacks in London were perpetrated by Al-Qaeda or not. In this version I provided sources from the BBC, Fox and the Council on Foreign Relations stating that they were, but another editor continuously reverts the edit, claiming the sources are not "tenable". So, I think it would be helpful if we could get an opinion from a neutral editor, thanks! Joshua Darkins (talk) 21:02, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

My opinion: If the BBC and CFR are not reliable, then I don't know what is. Remember, we are concerned with what is verifiable by reliable sources, which may not be the "truth". – ukexpat (talk) 21:22, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
It depends what should be included in the article; obviously with something such as Al-Qaeda the facts are often uncertain and disputed, with different groups claiming responsibility, and possibly inconsistent information in official reports. Some of the references used in the article about the attacks dispute the involvement of Al-Qaeda, so I don't think it can be claimed as a fact in the article about Al-Qaeda involvement in Europe, however I think it could still be mentioned, particularly if Al-Qaeda or a related organisation has claimed responsibility (which appears to have happened with the London bombings). It also depends on how "Al-Qaeda" is defined (see Al-Qaeda#Organization structure). —Snigbrook 22:36, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
In this version, I changed it to say that they claimed responsibility (and providing 9 different sources showing this) but the reliability of this claim is questionable; but the other editor continues to revert, claiming I am "edit warring", any further advice or intervention would be helpful. Thanks. Joshua Darkins (talk) 20:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I am the editor in dispute with Joshua Darkins . If you refer to the main article http://en.wikipedia.org/7_July_2005_London_bombings#Claims_of_responsibility the sources show the British Government has concluded that Al-Qaeda were not responsible for the London 7-7 bombings. It is enough to include tenuous claims of responsibly, which were never proven, in the main article. But it is not tenable to include this event in a list of Al-Qaeda attacks when the British Government themselves have said it had no involvement. Please remember that one news source can be superceded by another if more evidence comes to light. As is clearly the case here Vexorg (talk) 20:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
It depends on the scope of the article. According to Al-Qaeda article, "Activities ascribed to it may involve members of the movement, who have taken a pledge of loyalty to Osama bin Laden, or the much more numerous "al-Qaeda-linked" individuals who have undergone training in one of its camps in Afghanistan or Sudan but not taken any pledge." The content left in Al-Qaeda involvement in Europe article refers to Istanbul (where people involved had self-identified themselves as Al-Qaeda), Madrid (with evidence less reliable than that connecting 7/7 to Al-Qaeda), and Bosnia. I think it depends what is mentioned in reliable sources. Some link 7/7 to Al-Qaeda, but others say there is no connection. What can be mentioned is that people involved were at least influenced by Al-Qaeda. —Snigbrook 21:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Although I agree with Vexorg that it shouldn't be in Template:Campaignbox al-Qaeda attacks. —Snigbrook 21:52, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
This is exactly my point. The main article about the London 7-7 bombings includes references to alleged claims of Al-Qaeda involvement and I haven't a problem with that. But the article Al-Qaeda involvement in Europe states by it's title that it is about Al-Qaeda involvement in Europe, i.e events that involved Al-Qaeda. It would be misleading to the reader to include events that had, at one time, some vague media reportage of involvement which was later found to be false. It devalues Misplaced Pages to have articles implying that a group were involved when they were not. You are right to say "What can be mentioned is that people involved were at least influenced by Al-Qaeda." but this is something the main article.Vexorg (talk) 21:59, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
btw - Madrid shouldn't be in this article either, and it's questionable whether Istanbul should be either. but I need to do some more research before finalising a case for those two. There's too many articles in Misplaced Pages based upon vague or outdated news sources attributing events to Al-Qaeda when it really isn't the case. Misplaced Pages shouldn't be a mirror image of the mainstream media. If it is what's the point of it? Editors in the past have been too trigger happy and I'm just trying, in good faith, to remedy that Vexorg (talk) 22:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
If the article is only for incidents that Al-Qaeda is confirmed to be responsible for, it would only have one section, and probably wouldn't be needed – you could nominate it for deletion. Alternatively, the article could be about the Al-Qaeda's influence in Europe, not just about confirmed attacks by Al-Qaeda. —Snigbrook 01:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I think deletion is where we are heading with this article. The Bosnia link is kinda questionable also. Events influenced by Al-Qaeda could not be properly/sensibly verified. Where do you stop? And what's the point? It would be highly misleading at best. Misplaced Pages is not jounralism and needs to be immune from the media spin that speculates almost every terrorist attack being possibly influenced by al-Qaeda. Journalistic Media stories can get away with big headlines saying "Al-qaeda Claims Repsonsibility!" and then the content says "Al-Qaeda didn't directly claim responsibility". This isn't the remit of Misplaced Pages. It's not a speculative encyclopedia. The source has to be reputable but the source also has to actually say what is being claimed in the wiki article. Thanks for commenting Snigbrook - Vexorg (talk) 05:19, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


Border Television

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:35, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi

I'm the Managing Director of Border Television, a UK media company. Earlier this week, I carried out a number of edits on the Border Television entry to reflect accurately the current state of the company, which I bought this week. I have worked for Border Television for around 30 years, and have intimate knowledge of its history. In comparison, I'm not sure who the user RobinCarmody is, but if that is his real name he has not had a direct involvement with Border Television during that period, and his expressed views can only be based on second-hand information.

My changes were quickly undone by the user RobinCarmody. I have worked for Border Television for around 30 years, and have intimate knowledge of its history. In comparison, I'm not sure who the user RobinCarmody is, but if that is his real name he has not had a direct involvement with Border Television during that period, and his expressed views can only be based on second-hand information.

I sent him a message explaining that the updates I had made reflected the current position, and suggested that entries related to ITV Border which had been posted on the Border Television page would be better suited to a page about that company, since they were irrelevant on a page about Border Television. The message I sent was:

Hi Robin

I notice you've edited the Border Television page, and whilst I'm sure you did it in good faith, your comment that you've restored reality is incorrect.

You are confusing Border Television with ITV Border. Much of the content I removed from the page was relevant to ITV Border and should be placed on a page about that entity. I worked for the original Border Television for nearly thiry years and am now its owner and managing director. I therefore have intimate knowledge of its history and am in the unique position of understanding what the company is currently doing.

I had suggested in one of my first edits that a new page be created for ITV Border so that material relevant to that company be placed there. This is something you may want to give consideration to. However, such information has no place on a page about Border Television.

If you'd like to discuss this I'd be happy to chat it through with you. If you go to the company website at www.border-television.co.uk you'll find a number to reach us on.

I'll look forward to hearing from you, but for the moment I have reverted the entry to the current, accurate representation of the history and present position of Border Television.

Best wishes,

Ian Fisher Managing Director Border Telvision


His response was to undo my corrections, and to describe them as vandalism. His comments on the changes he made are:


Undo vandalism. Recent edits factually inaccurate. A new company 'Border Television' referred to in edits not same company as (or share history of) the Border Television now trading as ITV Border


I have made a reasonable attempt to explain the situation to RobinCarmody, and his response has been to ignore my approach for dialogue and re-edit the entry to what he believes is the correct position. I am therefore asking for your advice and help in proceeding. The problem is compounded by searches for ITV Border being redirected to Border Television. This is plainly wrong.

A summary of my position is:

1. As Managing Director of Border Television, I am in the best position to understand what the company is and does when it comes to facts rather than opinions.

2. There can only be one Border Television. The name Border Television is the sole property of Border Television Ltd, and only this entity has the right to use it. Robin is confusing Border Television, and its history, with ITV Border Ltd. which is a separate entity. In the same way, ITV plc is not the same entity as Granada Television or Carlton Television despite being formed by their merger in 2003, and both of the original companies continue to exist in their own right. Similarly, Granada and Compass Group are separate entities, despite being once a single entity.

3. Since ITV Border and Border Television are separate entites, searches for ITV Border should not direct the user to the Border Television entry.

Proposal for resolution

I suggest that the redirect on searches for the term ITV Border be removed and a page established under that title which can provide information about the current channel 3 franchisee. Since my version of the Border Television page accurately reflects the position of the company, the user RobinCarmody should agree that he will not further modify it unreasonably. I am sure that his edits can not be described as vandalism, and are simply being made through a misunderstanding of the current position, but his unwillingness to enter into discussion on the issue reflects badly on him.

I'd be grateful if you will let me know what you think.

Best wishes

Ian Fisher

Calfofman (talk) 10:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

The original Border Television, established in 1960, was renamed to ITV Border in 2006, and a new company Border Television has now been established; I can't find anything verifiable that connects the new company to the original Border Television. You could discuss on the article's talk page whether it should be moved to ITV Border, and add it to Misplaced Pages:Requested moves. If the new company meets the relevant guidelines for inclusion in Misplaced Pages, then an article can be created. The title would probably need to be disambiguated, with either a disambiguation page or a hatnote – people are more likely to be looking for information about the original company, and it is mentioned by its former name in many articles. —Snigbrook 13:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Snigbrook. Creating a new company (registered in the past few days) called Border Television ltd does not allow you to assume the history of the company that is ITV Border. The current Border Television ltd has been in existance for less than a week. That is not worthy of a Misplaced Pages article. The only way Ian Fisher's edits would be factually correct were if he had bought Border Television (now ITV Border) in 2006 and ITV plc had set up a new entity called ITV Border ltd. This however did not happen, ITV Plc simply renamed their subsidiary Border Television ltd to ITV Border ltd. It is very sad that ITV Border will disappear from our screens shortly. I realise you have worked for the company now trading as ITV Border ltd for 30 years, but that doesn't allow your company to assume the history of another company unless you bought the company from ITV which you have not. 86.17.90.72 (talk) 16:16, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Agree with two previous posters. The new company has not established notability and it were to do any article about it should have a title such as Border Television (2009 company) that clearly and unambiguously differentiates it. Calfofman'S edits do look like vandalism to me. This is not discussed anywhere on the article talk page. That is where the talk should start.Jezhotwells (talk) 16:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
And I think Calfofman should be declaring conflict of interest in any edits made and on the talk page. Jezhotwells (talk) 16:45, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Hungarian pengő

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 03:23, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I have tried numerous places, but have yet to recieve any meaningful input, so I'll try it here :

The exchange rate for the pengo to the forint is given as 400 octillion = 4×10 in the article Hungarian pengő. However this figure is not sourced. The only source for an exchange rate I could find is the Encyclopedia Britannica (online at ), which has a different rate (400 quintillion = 4x10). However since the Misplaced Pages figure is very widely quoted by other, mainly private sites on the internet, I did not want to remove it without further input. Unfortunately a request for additional sources on various related pages has not yielded any results. Further info on the problem at Talk:Hungarian_pengő#Exchange_rate_for_forint Passportguy (talk) 21:29, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Well I don't want to dis Britannica, but they are only an encyclopedia. This google book search turns up numerous textbook references for the 4×10 figure, including , , and . SpinningSpark 02:52, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


Ante Pavelić

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:35, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

In this article we are having statement: "Pavelić's Ustaše regime was the most murderous, in relation to its size, in Axis-occupied Europe" which is confirmed by 2 books.

I have tried to delete this statement because Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style is saying that we can't user word most in statement about anybody. After my deleting I have been reverted with statement that we can use this word and that statement is confirmed by sources. Because there are no answers on this question on Neutral point of view noticeboard......

Can somebody please tell me if we can use this sort of statements or not ??--Rjecina (talk) 05:27, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I have had a quick look at the article and the talk page where there seem to have been sevral disputes about this. I think that the description of the regime as murderous is clearly supported by WP:Reliable sources, but it should be expressed with a WP:Neutral point of view, e.g. this source described "Pavelić's Ustaše regime was the most murderous ......", thus maintaining NPOV. Jezhotwells (talk) 16:58, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for help--Rjecina (talk) 02:06, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Siege of Leningrad

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 03:23, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

There is a problem in the Siege of Leningrad article, where I'm in a low level edit war with couple(?) anonymous users. I have tried to point out weaknesses of their edit and requested sources for the claims they are trying to add to the article, but they have not answered to those requests in talk page but instead they have copied (three times) a list of citations of which only two have any relevance to the siege and even those doesn't have any connections to the claims in question.

These actions have quite similar feeling like one year ago, when an anonymous user from the same area tried to add similar kind of additions to the article, but when the meditation process was started, the user faded out. The nonymous users in this case are User talk:130.166.34.165, User talk:12.34.80.73 and User talk:137.159.37.226. --Whiskey (talk) 06:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be quite a lot of history to this and it is hard work for outsiders to go through it all from the year dot. What would be enormously helpful is a few diffs highlighting the specific issues. Involved editors often want to go through all the twists and turns of the dispute from the beginning: please don't do that, you are much more likely to get a response here if you give us less work to do. Limit yourself only to issues that are still a problem right now and only those of them that you feel you cannot resolve between yourselves. SpinningSpark 09:18, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
In the article Siege of Leningrad they keeps on removing and altering sourced statements: Line 14: Glanz doesn't provide those figures, see my reply in , Line 39: Changing sourced "one barge" to "barges with food" contrary to Juutilainen and Ekman, also the operation Iskra produced permanent breach to the siege, not temporary, Line 56: Removed "dubious" (See reason for that in ) without providing any reasoning, Line 111: Although not sourced here, simple check of 7th Army and 14th Army shows that those were never in the city, Line 117: Changed numerous places Finnish participation to opposite as several sources, including given Vehviläinen and Carell, state. It has been impossible to discuss with them in the talk page of the article, see , , ... Oh well, see the whole Talk:Siege of Leningrad And it is now five or six times they have added that list of pages from Vehviläinen's book...
Oh, and their pet peeve, that I'm in conflict with Britannica, see edit
I have pointed out specific places, occasions where their edit doesn't conform with the sources, but they still repeat their edits, even adding more mistakes. There seems to be no possible way to find a solution via a discussion between us.--Whiskey (talk) 18:27, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
For what its worth, my take on this is that this revolves around emphasis and misunderstandings of motives rather than any really substantive disagreement over the facts. There might be a whole host of minor disagreements on facts in dispute, but the broad brush of what happened at Lenigrad does not seem to be an issue. Part of the problem is that you are coming actross to the other editors as an apologist for the Finns. Please do not get me wrong, I am not saying you are an apologist for the Finns, just that that is how you are being perceived and possibly nationalist feelings have got people hot under the collar about this. A particular phrase that seems to be causing problems is saying the Finns did not actively take part in the siege. I cannot comment on what is, or is not, said in Glanz as I have no access to the book. But another book I can get to online by Leon Goure confirms my understanding of Finnish participation - that they were there but declined to actually attack Leningrad or aid Germany in completing the encirclement. Did no active part come from a source? It seems a bit of a misrepresentation of the situation, merely by being there the Finns were taking part in the siege. Sieges are by their nature passive affairs. It seems to me that it is perfectly possible to state the facts of the Finnish actions without using that phrase. I think if you make an effort to reassure the other editors over your motives it might be possible to move forward and this is one thing on which compromise could be reached.
Another difficulty I see from the diff you gave me is that the article is being reverted backward and forward, their version, your version and back again. This is not good, in fact, it is edit warring. Reverting en-mass a whole stack of edits with a large number of different issues is never going to resolve anything. A better plan is to address one small issue at a time. This is much more managable, everyone can understand what is going on, the arguments are more transparent. It will take a long time, but that is much more preferable to endless your version - their version and will ultimately produce a well researched and well referenced article.
On Brittanica, I can only agree with you, they are not infallible. More to the point, like us, they are an encyclopedia and as such are a tertiary source. We should be looking at the sources of Britannica, that is, the secondary sources, for our information.
Where you really cannot reach agreement it might be worthwile asking the other parties if they would be willing to abide by some form of neutral mediation, such as Misplaced Pages:Third opinion or Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment. But before getting other parties involved it is best to crystallise the disagreement into a very specific factual issue. This makes it so much easier for outsiders to get to grips with it. I hope that this has been of some help.
SpinningSpark 23:04, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
This whole stuff has certain reminiscent to the happenings almost one year ago, when an anonymous editor User:130.166.33.54 tried to enter same kind of edits to the article . When I requested third opinion Talk:Siege_of_Leningrad#Content_dispute_Third_opinion, he answered first, but refused to operate constructively, so he was blocked, see User talk:130.166.33.54.
I have tried to present reasoning and sources in Talk:Siege_of_Leningrad#Dubious and Talk:Siege_of_Leningrad#Glantz_and_numbers but no avail. I really wonder if he is willing to co-operate at all, as he is changing referenced entries to something those given sources don't support; I've got a feeling that they are just pulling my leg for fun. --Whiskey (talk) 01:44, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Copyediting unreferenced articles

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 23:18, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi,

I'm helping clear the back log of articles that require copy-editing. However, there are many article that require proper referencing. In my opinion, it is not worth it to copy edit articles that require this as that information could be challenged/deleted. My current temptation is to un-tag the article and fill in an edit summary asking for in-line citations. Does anyone see it differently? Bladeofgrass (talk) 16:49, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Then when someone comes along and provides the refs, the article will still need copyediting but be untagged. What then? Seems to me if you personally only want to work on articles that are tagged with copyedit, but not tagged with unref, AWB can quickly build a list of such articles.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 18:27, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Ownership issue with American Airpower Heritage Museum

Resolved – ukexpat (talk) 03:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

User:CAFAirpower and I are on the verge of an edit war over the name of the museum described in American Airpower Heritage Museum. As you can see by his user page he works for the museum itself, and stakes a claim of ownership of the article in question. He claims to know that the museum has changed names recently to "CAF Airpower Museum". However, there is no reliable reference to this fact (no published press release, the museum website has not changed, very few Google hits, etc.) I have reverted his changes a couple of times, but do not wish to continue an edit war over it. I did create a redirect page at CAF Airpower Museum in an attempt to satisfy his concerns, as the name "CAF Airpower Museum" is apparently used as a casual nickname for the museum. However, apparently this hasn't been enough.

Declaration: I did create the page and write the basic article based upon information found on the museum's website. However, I have no more interest in the article other than to have it remain accurate according to known public references. At such time as the name change is announced to the public and can be referenced, I would be happy to see the article updated to reflect that and will help move the article to the new name if needed.

I understand that User:CAFAirpower is fairly new here, and has edited very few articles. I have advised this editor to visit wp:introduction, among other WP guides, to show him that Misplaced Pages is not quite what he thinks it is. Perhaps if others tried also, maybe he would understand why I've reverted his edits.

The other possibility is that I am completely wrong. If so, please tell me.

Thank you for you time. --| Uncle Milty | talk | 18:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted the latest change by User:CAFAirpower but note that the user has now been blocked from editing by another admin as a role account with a conflict of interest in the subject. MilborneOne (talk) 18:52, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. I am a little shocked that the entire account was speedy-deleted, but I guess it did meet the criteria. --| Uncle Milty | talk | 21:45, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Don't be shocked - it was clearly a role account as indicated by the now-deleted user page. – ukexpat (talk) 22:40, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I just hope the user(s) understood that. --| Uncle Milty | talk | 22:48, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
In an effort to maximize clarity, the role account was given a handcrafted message when the account was blocked, rather than the spamusername template message. --Orange Mike | Talk 23:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


Zanesville (novel)

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:55, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I just wondered if anyone would be willing to look at this article. When I copy-edited it, it read like a one-sided review of the book. I tried to keep it NPOV. I raised the concerns on the other editors talk page, but my edits were reverted. I looked at the references again, and updated the article and commented on my updates. Perhaps I was a little curt here. But then my edits were reverted, and I got an e-mail which I've copied to my talk page. Could anyone give me a third opinion? I'm a bit of a newbie. Bladeofgrass (talk) 02:02, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

You got at that new plot summary just seconds before I tried to post my version. Yours is much better anyway. The editor user:Tornado Girl seems to have a bad case of WP:OWN. I have left a note on her talk page. SpinningSpark 15:24, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your help :). Is there a more appropriate place to raise issues like this? Bladeofgrass (talk) 17:28, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
It depends what you are looking for. If you are after some informal advice and help from other editors, this page is good. For formal dispute resolution there are various options at WP:Dispute and for administrator action against specific policy violations there is WP:ANI and the other pages listed in the template at the top. But I don't think you really need anything like that in this particular case. SpinningSpark 01:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Eunectes murinus

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:54, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Hello, at the article Eunectes murinus an editor named User:Jwinius keeps moving the "also known as" from the first sentence, and floats it over the article. Would you please intervene. I believe the AKA should be in the first sentence, not floating on the top, that is where the "disambiguation" should go. Thank you. Green Squares (talk) 22:31, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

There are other examples of this, in for example Special:Contributions/Jwinius and there's also a debate about taxonomy and nomenclature at WT:NC. I'm not sure that either approach is wrong, although the floating line is fairly novel, but it seems like a consistent approach would be helpful to casual readers. --AndrewHowse (talk) 03:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
The user also seems be using redirects in a very unconventional way - example. Again, hard to label this as being actually wrong, but it is certainly very confusing for those who are not in on the scheme. This ought to be discussed but I don't think this is the right venue. Village pump? SpinningSpark 07:51, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
I knew I'd seen an earlier thread about this. I don't have a better suggestion than village pump. --AndrewHowse (talk) 17:05, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Branch Davidian Article

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:53, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Hello,

I want to do a major renovation on the article titled "Branch Davidians." I anticipate some real opposition as the article is currently "tagged" due to disputes over POV and facts. I have most of what I want to change prepared in a word processor file. I need some help with a few of the technical steps in doing the edit because some may be attacking my revisions as I am making them. What I have is well documented and referenced. It is written from a factually neutral point of view, but those facts are not to the liking of some.Is there some way I can get some protection while editing the article and shortly thereafter? Two of someone(s) recent edits involved an unfair chracterization, and a name change that is wholly unfounded. I think I may even need an administrator to oversee the edit.

Thank you,Anyone77 (talk) 03:23, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps put it in a WP:Userpage? then come back here and ask someone to take a look and offer some thoughts? If you then feel able to publish it, the usual process will ensue. --AndrewHowse (talk) 03:41, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Jeopardy!‎ "Sushi Bar" set

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:52, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm attempting to remove fancruft/weasel words from this article related to a nickname given to a particular set used on Jeopardy. For example:

Its purple-backlit gridded walls and wooden accents earned it the nickname of the "sushi bar" set amongst fans.

The reference attached to this line links back to a fan newsgroup.

Other editors of this article claim that this is a "common nickname" however the term is not used within the general populace and is not found outside of fan pages. Sottolacqua (talk) 05:08, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

As the editor on the other side of this argument, I think the above characerization is objectionable. The subject matter of the article in question is a game show; everything in the article relates to the subject matter. Is it not paradoxical to discount sources that relate to the subject matter on the grounds that they relate to the subject matter? This logic would exclude reference to the nickname "The Jake" in the article for Progressive Field for the reason that they are Cleveland Indians fans who use the nickname. (Certainly after the name change from "Jacobs Field", no official copy is going to reference the old but still-used nickname.) Google the string literal "sushi bar set" and those results that do not refer to Asian cuisine are links relating to Jeopardy! and that particular set. () Misplaced Pages includes nicknames throughout--for biographical subjects, nicknames are almost always included in the lead--and it is a function of any encyclopedia to offer reference for a nickname so that someone unfamiliar with a term can associate it with the person, place, or thing it refers to. In this case, the fact that the nickname is used by fans is mentioned in the text and it is this usage which the citation is evidencing. A few words about the larger issue here: Any good encyclopedia article offers not just a superficial examination of its subject but also introduces readers to "terms of the art" that enhance the reader's understanding of the topic. Regardless of how unfamiliar the terms may become in an article, their inclusion deepens an article. The above message misuses the word "fancruft" as alarmist hyperbole when what is actually going on here is the useful inclusion of a common term. (List of Star Wars planets this is not.) Finally, I simply don't see it as an extraordinary breach of Misplaced Pages guidelines to include one line of text that provides helpful information, and it seems evident to me that the article is slightly weaker with the text omitted. This being the case, if the stickler says it must be removed, this becomes as good a case as any to refer to WP:ignore all rules. Robert K S (talk) 05:34, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Bel Air Presbyterian Church Article has inappropriate neutrality comment

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:51, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The objection to neutrality was entered for the amusement of the commenter and it was not truly a comment on neutrality. Can it be removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cbslocum (talkcontribs) 00:54, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Really the entire section needs to be rewritten or removed as inappropriate - it is not formatted as a quote if indeed that is what it is, and the reference does not function so it's impossible to say where it came from. As it is it is worded as a set of claims in the first person with no context as to what they represent with respect to the subject of the article in question. It either needs to be written into prose with "The church" as the subject of the sentences, or quoted out and correctly attributed/referenced. Mfield (talk) 03:18, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the two sections as on further inspection they are worded entirely inappropriately for WP. The article should not be written from the POV of the church, it (as all WP articles) should be a neutral and unbiased objective article about the church and should be a world view of the subject. Hence their theology can be discussed but only in balanced discussion and certainly not written out as a series of "We believe..." statements. Mfield (talk) 03:24, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

links to Wikepedia

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:51, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I have attempted to link groups to specific articles in Misplaced Pages

And have received the following message for including a link to the following

http://www.fashionistas.me/group/canali

the site provides news updates and images for the subject.

Please do not add inappropriate external links to Misplaced Pages, as you did to Canali. Misplaced Pages is not a collection of links, nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include (but are not limited to) links to personal web sites, links to web sites with which you are affiliated, and links that attract visitors to a web site or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam guideline for further explanations. Since Misplaced Pages uses the nofollow attribute value, its external links are disregarded by some search engines, including Google. If you feel the link should be added to the article, please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. Thank you. Versageek 04:53, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


I believe the link falls within the policies of Wikepedia specifically

Sites that contain neutral and accurate material Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews.

What should be linked Shortcut: WP:ELYES

1. Misplaced Pages articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the subject's official site, if any. 2. An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a copy of the work if none of the "Links normally to be avoided" criteria apply. 3. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Misplaced Pages article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons. 4. Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews.


Can you please confirm that it is within Wikepedia policies and how I should go about including the link

Thank

Sanjiv

Sanjiv —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanjiovani (talkcontribs) 23:49, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

You won't get these links included. A - They seem to be be spam aimed at promoting the site in question. B - You can't even see the groups in question without registering - so there's no way of telling if the link is relevant (it's unreasonable to expect people to register before they can see the info.) - please do not readd them. Exxolon (talk) 00:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

some one is vandalizing my article

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:49, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Some one is persistently vandalizing my article and I need help from the editors to either give warning to this person or block his/her IP address. Please see here

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Elias_Kifle&action=history

Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Enawga (talkcontribs) 10:40, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

You reverted the vandalism yourself, which is the appropriate thing to do, especially with a BLP article. You can also warn the IP yourself using an appropriate talk page template. – ukexpat (talk) 14:55, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
The templates are here by the way. SpinningSpark 01:21, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Mixed Matrial Artists issues/Hack

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:49, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

up to 20 or 30 Mixed Martial Artists pages have been hacked of sorts with messages such as "Headlining Text" and "youtube sucks" on pages like Brock Lesnar, it shows no last revisions on these errors and im frustrated being that most of the pages hacked were created by myself. PLEASE HELP!User:Sepulwiki 00:09, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, not seeing that on the page you mention. If there are pages vandalised then please post the pages here or simply revert it. --AndrewHowse (talk) 01:32, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
If it was on that many articles it was almost certainly template vandalism, which has probably been reverted by now. – ukexpat (talk) 02:47, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
It was probably caused by this edit to Template:0expr, which is now semi-protected. —Snigbrook 22:07, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
You can usually see which templates are transcluded in a page by clicking the "edit" or "source" tab and scrolling to the end of the page. —Snigbrook 22:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

What's the opposite of a sockpuppet?

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:47, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I've gotten into a long-running slow edit war (well, some others and myself) with User:DrJamesX. Today, I tried taking it over to the Reliable sources/Noticeboard to see if I could get some more eyeballs on it and to see what other people think. Since I posted that (here), there have since been nine edits, all to make a single response to my question.

Those nine edits break down to:

all of the above within about one hour, and all of which claim to be the same person.

A sockpuppet is when one person is claiming to be several. What is it when multiple people are claiming to be one person? And is this against WP policies? I'd appreciate the feedback. Dori (TalkContribs) 03:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I think meatpuppet is what you are looking for. Grsz 04:14, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
My understanding of MEAT is that it's when you have several unique editors, all of whom come in on the side of one editor to appear that he's got community support. DrJamesX isn't doing that, or at least not so as I can tell. It doesn't appear to be a TAGTEAM either.
Does it fall under NOSHARE, maybe? Then again, it's not as if he's trying to hide that he's coming in from two widely-distant places. Dori (TalkContribs) 05:02, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
This doesn't necessarily mean that it's a shared account – there are at least two other possibilities. One is impersonation by IPs. Another explanation: the IP-geolocation site I've looked at shows 75.61.68.68 as in California, which is where most of the suspected sock IPs are (although one is in Canada), and just because Visual Data Corporation is based in Florida doesn't necessarily mean users of its IP addresses are there (it does appear to provide services to organisations based in various states including California, and the geolocation fails for 64.95.122.34 on the site I use). —Snigbrook 22:01, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure what "suspected sock IPs" you're referring to—I haven't mentioned any IPs other than the two above, and I haven't accused anyone of being a sockpuppet.
For geolocation, I'm using the service that's linked to at the end of each contributions page: see Special:Contributions/64.95.122.34 and Special:Contributions/75.61.68.68, which link to http://www.ip2location.com/64.95.122.34 and http://www.ip2location.com/75.61.68.68 respectively. I've been pretty statisfied with their results overall; it's just that these in particular confuse me. Dori (TalkContribs) 23:02, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
The sockpuppet case was Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/DrJamesX, which was closed due to lack of evidence of sockpuppetry. I'm not sure about the IP locations, but I was surprised by the difference between the results on two different sites – I used www.ip-adress.com. IP-geolocation services don't always appear to be accurate – once I looked at my IP on various sites, and it was showing various different parts of the UK. According to ip-adress.com I'm in St Helens, Merseyside, ip2location.com thinks I'm on the Isle of Man, and I'm actually in Lancashire. —Snigbrook 23:54, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Proposed help

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:46, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Could Somebody please help me with my articles, Apparently they violate G12 and G16. South Bay (talk) 09:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

In the Criteria for speedy deletion, G12 is for copyright violations. There is no G16. – ukexpat (talk) 15:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Unintentional "spaming"

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:45, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I added a liink "eatinoutinsomerset" not fully understanding the implications relative to Wikpedia. It will not happen again!! I am agfraid thast I did not familiarise myself with the restrictions within Wikpedia!There was no interntion to be disruptive in any way.

Can you email me a reply to (email address removed SpinningSpark)

Best regards

Jeff Harris Jdavidh (talk) 08:11, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, we cannot reply to email and it is not a good idea to post your email address on a public forum where it can be collected by automated spammers. Thank you for responding to the warnings. You can read about what are acceptable links to Misplaced Pages at WP:EL. Thankyou. SpinningSpark 09:51, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Geber

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:44, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

In Geber a user deleted sourced materials, deleted a whole section, reverted large portions to an old version and other changes, here. I made a mistake by violating the 3RR rule with him, both of us were blocked for 31 hours. I told him before the block when he accused me of putting my POV that if he mentioned any unsourced addition I made, I will delete it. Now he is back giving the reason "Exceptional Claim" for his edit without any discussion in talk page . What should I do. Dy yol (talk) 17:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Not sure I have the capability to sort out for you whether Geber is the same person as Jabir or whether he is Latin, Arab, Persian or mythical. But what I can say is that this edit was not a very smart thing to do less than 24 hours after being unblocked for edit warring - especially as you persuaded an admin to unblock you on the basis that you would stay away from the article for 31 hours. All the involved editors seem to be contributing to the discussion on the talk page, admittedly not always with good humour. What on earth is wrong with arguing your case there and presenting your sources? Why is it so important that your version is on display while the debate continues? If there really is no agreement amongst the sources, it is not for Misplaced Pages to judge who is right, but both sides should be presented and attributed. SpinningSpark 18:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. The 31 hours start from the blocking not the unblocking. I wrote about the edit in the discussion. I'm not saying that Geber is Jabir or he is not him, that would be an original research. All what I am saying is that no sourced material should be removed without a good reason. Dy yol (talk) 15:54, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
It really does not cut any ice with me whether your revert was within the 31 hours or not. That is just wikilawyering. The point is that you felt that it was a higher priority to restore the "right" version of the article rather than first come to an understanding with the other editor. That is the kind of behaviour that got you blocked in the first place. It is to your advantage not to do that. If all the disruptive behaviour is on the other side then only one of you gets blocked next time. Anyway, the suggestion you have currently laid on the talk page of request for comment after both posting a version is a good one. There is no possibility of edit warring if you have both agreed a version before it is posted. I hope that works out for you. SpinningSpark 20:06, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks again. I've put a new proposal in the talk page, can you give your thought. Also, if you can help me in the general question of how to deal with reverting multiple edits. In the Bold, Revert, Dicuss you are supposed to make a bold edit then wait for someone to revert it and discuss your edit with him, if no body reverted you move to the next edit and so on. But what if you did 50 edits without objection then suddenly somebody came and reverted all of your edits? I find that very disruptive. It is not the case of "my version" Dy yol (talk) 17:38, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Also, you said "If all the disruptive behaviour is on the other side then only one of you gets blocked next time". The problem is that if only one side reverts, no admin will intervene because nobody will break the 3RR rule. This is what is happening now. Dy yol (talk) 17:57, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
I would not get too focused on the 3RR rule. Administrators will take action against disruptive editors whether or not the 3RR rule has been broken. Hopefully we will not need that to happen if everyone keeps a cool head. I would also advise against getting emotional about mass deletions. That version still exists in the history and can just as easily be restored. The trick is to get everybody to agree it should be restored (or deleted as the case may be). There is no point restoring it just to have someone else delete it again. You are doing the right thing by starting discussions on the talk page. I have a couple of suggestions that might move things along a bit. Firstly, what sometimes works is posting a block of text on to the talk page and asking for opinions. Since it is not in the article people tend to discuss it in a much calmer way. They can also post their own version and gradually you might arrive at a version everyone can live with and post it in the article. I would recommend limiting this process to one issue at a time (or perhaps one paragraph at a time). If you post too much you will never get anything agreed. My second suggestion is to make a direct request to the involved editor(s) on their talk pages to take part. Perhaps you could phrase it as a request for their opinion after making the post on the article talk page I suggested above. If you find there are issues that you really cannot agree on then there are dispute resolution processes available to help you, but for now, your best way forward is to try to come to an understanding amongst yourselves. If there is disagreement, the solution is always to go back to the sources to see what they say. Hope that is of some help, I know it is painfully slow to get things agreed sometimes but in the end it makes for a better article. SpinningSpark 22:34, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Callback Verification Article

I'd like some assistance / advice for dealing with an edit war concerning an article on "callback verification". This is a spam fighting technique that is commonly used in spam filtering. There is however a sort of "cult" that hates callback verification and has created a blocklist to try to punish anyone using it. The user Wrs1864 keeps removing sections I add on how to implement callback verification support.

So - I'm not a Misplaced Pages expert and I think we are both somewhat entrenched on this so I want to play nice but don't want this guy vandalizing my work. So I'm asking for some assistance in dealing with this from people who are better at Misplaced Pages than I am. I've started a discussion on the page that outlines the dispute. Marcperkel (talk) 22:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

"How to" sections don't usually belong here - see WP:NOTHOWTO - so a section about implementing a particular approach should, in all likelihood be removed. --AndrewHowse (talk) 22:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
BTW, Marc, that's a dead link up there. Why do these people hate it? What are their arguments? Why is opposition to the technology not in the article already? --Orange Mike | Talk 23:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Re-grouped here from further down the page --AndrewHowse (talk) 03:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC) I request editor's assistance for topic callback verification. The discussion page outlines the dispute. The problem is that someone who hates this technology keeps changing the page to insert factually wrong information while at the same time deleting information as to how to implement the technology. AndrewHowse has already attempted to resolve this but Wrs1864 keeps putting it back in. I'm not a very patient person so I'm asking people with better temperament than me to look into this. Marcperkel (talk) 18:22, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Both editors blocked 12 hours for 3rr. Since I've edited the page already, I should stay out of it. I have suggested to Marc that claims of personal expertise don't carry much weight here; much better to show sources. --AndrewHowse (talk) 03:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Personal Information

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:43, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I am a high school administrator and there is incorrect, potentially incendiary personal information (that is incorrect) posted about me on our high school's web page. How can I have the information removed and ensure that there are no further libelous comments posted? How should I proceed?

Thank You, LEW <redacted> —Preceding unsigned comment added by LEW237 (talkcontribs) 22:32, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

If it's posted on your high school's web page, you should talk to the person who administers your school's web page. If, on the other hand, you are talking about the Misplaced Pages article about your school, you can remove the vandalism yourself, or tell us what school we are talking about and we can take a look at it. In either case, I've removed your e-mail address so that it can't be harvested by bad guys. --Orange Mike | Talk 22:40, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Ava Gardner Bidet link

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

```` I linked to Misplaced Pages entry for Bidet that wa mentioned in the entry. Many people do not know what a bidet is. Ward3001 thinks it's overlinking, it isn't.```` s2grand

My biggest objection here is that s2grand repeatedly reverts without discussing on talk (and seeking consensus if needed), despite several requests that he do so. If enough editors agree with him, I have no problem with his edit. It's his refusal to discuss that is problematic. Ward3001 (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
I see from the edit history that you have reverted s2grand seven times recently. Your complaint is refusal to discuss that is problematic. Oh dear, I don't seem to be able to find your name on the talk page discussing anything, in fact it hasn't been edited by anyone since October. Really, I think an editor who has been around since 2006 and ought to know that much. SpinningSpark 20:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
And "oh dear", Spinningspark, take the time to look at something before throwing around information to create a false impression. Some of what you call "reverts" were unrelated to the issue s2grand raised here, and some were simply adding "citation needed" tags (last time I checked, it was acceptable on Misplaced Pages to add those). And it is s2grand who wishes to change the article. If he will begin the discussion on talk, I'll be happy to respond. Now ... let me take a look at your edit history and see if I can cherry-pick some of your edits out of context and discuss your editing habits. Ward3001 (talk) 21:02, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I counted the edits that you had described as "revert" or "undo" in the edit summary. What makes you immune from discussing your reversions on the talk page while s2grand must discuss his edits first? Oh, and all comments are welcome on my edits, especially the bad ones, please do go ahead and carry out a review. SpinningSpark 22:10, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Then you might want to brush up on your counting skills because there were not seven reverts about the issue that s2grand describes above. And I find it interesting that s2grand took the time to write about his concerns here, and you took the time to selectively pick some of my edits to create a false impression, but neither of you seem willing to discuss on the talk page of the article in question. And, don't worry, I'm watching your edits, collecting one here and there (out of context, of course), and waiting for just the right time to compile them into a list the next time you disagree with someone's edits. Now, feel free to continue wasting everyone's time on this useless discussion if you wish, but I personally don't intend to respond to you any more on this inappropriate venue (even though I'm sure you'll reply to this anyway in hopes that you can stir something up). Bring it up on the correct talk page, and I'll discuss as necessary. Have a good day. Ward3001 (talk) 23:27, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I would like add an an entry , would appreciate some advice

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:41, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Nd84/leisurecorp

Please view the link above for the initial draft of my article I wish to post.

Best Regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nd84 (talkcontribs) 07:07, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I have completely reformatted your references and added full citations. This is a big stumbling block for new articles. The article needs fleshing out, with more independent sources (as opposed to press releases) verifying the content.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 17:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
And it's also rather spammy. – ukexpat (talk) 03:40, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

incorrect citation- what to do in light of policy

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:40, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

This regards articles on written works of fiction. As I understand it, policy does not allow for removal of cited/referenced material. However, may an editor remove or revert an edit done with a misleading or unrelated citation? There is a critique referenced on a novel's page, which actually belongs to a film review site and is clearly a review of the director's work on the adaptation if the footnote is consulted. May I remove it myself, or does an editor need to step in for this type of thing? I see a work (for example a Charles Dickens novel) as being separate from any adaptations or alterations of it.

I sense that someone is doing this to insert their own opinion on the work (violating neutrality), but that's probably another issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GingerSnapsBack (talkcontribs) 00:30, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

If a reference is clearly inaccurate, misleading etc then it, and the material to which it relates (assuming that it's likely to be controversial if unreferenced), should be removed. – ukexpat (talk) 03:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Its neutrality is disputed

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:39, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi,

My username is Kashmirian and in Jan-2009 I add some informations about the political party (UKPNP) and my home country (Kashmir) and Party leader (Sardar Shaukat ali Kashmiri)

I have added my party under heading of UKPNP (Abreivation) and also tried to add under the heading of FULL PARTY NAME: (United Kashmir PEOPLE'S National party and United Kashmir PEOPLES National Party). My aim was to facilitate the users for search with any of name and that time I had no idia that it gona be under investigation and will be marked as "Its neutrality is disputed".

I am sorry for that and learned from this and in future will be carefull for to adding an article with two names.

My articles are correct one and if need any more references, I can add to verify.

I need your help to clear my user name and IP address from investigation/block to add some more informations in future.

Thanks<e-mail address redacted> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.171.129.69 (talk) 02:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Nothing is "under investigation" - the tag just means that another editor is of the opinion that the article does not have a neutral point of view and asking that those issues be addressed. The best place to discuss these concerns is on the talk pages of the articles. I suggest you create an account to avoid falling over IP blocks that are unrelated to you (if indeed they are). – ukexpat (talk) 03:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Joe Shell - links to conspiracy blogs of questionable veracity - request for semi-protection

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:38, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The article on Joe Shell, a California politician of the 1950s and 1960s, contains information from a conspiracy theory oriented blog, http://howtheneoconsstolefreedom.blogspot.com, which provides highly dubious information about Richard Nixon sabotaging Shell's plane and how Ronald Reagan destroyed Shell's career in California Republican politics, without any sort of confirmation from a reputable news source or an interview with the late Assemblyman Shell, his family, or his staff. Said blog's main focus is to elucidate a conspiracy between the Bush family, Ronald Reagan, Nelson Rockefeller, Richard Nixon, and even the Wall Street Journal to destroy the U.S. It is clearly an inappropriate source for Misplaced Pages and that is why I request that said page be at least semi-protected to guard against unreliable sources being used for information. I would suggest that the article on Shell be at least semi-protected. 71.106.212.211 (talk) 06:00, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I recommend sending this case to WP:RFPP Cheers. Imperat§ r 21:25, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Black_Eyed_Husband

Resolved – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:37, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Please remove this deletion tag as this is the only article about a movie starring famous porn actress Francesca Le --Bziona86 (talk) 11:17, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Article has been deleted for " real person, an organization (e.g. band, club, company, etc., except schools), or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant". Cheers. Imperat§ r 19:53, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Illuminates of Thanateros

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Would someone like to have a look at the recent history of Illuminates of Thanateros? I'm disagreeing strongly with what 67.177.27.74 is doing and I'd like a proper discussion of the matter rather than just go to and fro with him. Thanks! 217.234.215.248 (talk) 17:46, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm...apparently, 67.177.27.74's biggest disagreement is about your "politicized "insider" knowledge"; would you care to include another, if not better, reference? Your current reference (http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/icewars.html) appears to be questionable. Try to talk to him on his talk page; the editor in question appears rather dubious, with all his vandalism-warning templates... BTW, you and him might want to read this Cheers. Imperat§ r 18:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

OBTS: Teaching Society for Management Educators

I am a member of the Board of OBTS and the Communications chair. As part of my duties, I was directed by the Society's President to create a Misplaced Pages entry about the Society. I created a new entry as no entry existed, using wording from our official website since that wording best describes who we are and what we do. I received a notification that the entry was tagged for speedy deletion. How can this be resolved easily? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gary Coombs (talkcontribs) 20:49, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Several points: First, you should not be writing articles about subjects with which you are closely associated because of conflict of interest concerns. Second, copyrighted material can be made available for use on Misplaced Pages if the copyright owner follows the process set out as WP:IOWN. Third, any material from the subject's website is likely to be promotional in tone and an article based on it will probably be speedily deleted as spam. Fourth, any article about his subject will have to demonstrate its notability by reference to reliable sources. Bottom line, if this organisation really is notable, someone else will write an article about it in due course. – ukexpat (talk) 20:55, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Or better yet, put it on the board of requested articles. (no idea what it's called though, can someone else lend a hand?) ηoian ‡orever ηew ‡rontiers 05:21, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

wrong age of person...

Resolved – Fleetflame 03:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Marilyn_Miller

Marilyn Miller, She was 37. She died in New York City on the morning of April 7, 1936 which is stated on this page. and this info is also found at

http://www.ibdb.com/person.php?id=68326. thank-you for your time Jhasara —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhasara (talkcontribs) 02:04, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

It's been fixed – it looks like the article had been vandalised. —Snigbrook 02:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism on page: King Adamtey I

Stale

A user has continually removed the birth date (1 April 1956) of Dr. Kingsley A. Fletcher (King Adamtey I) from his Misplaced Pages article. This information is publicly available in a number of books published by Fletcher. It is not a secret, and there is no reason to omit it from a biographical article.

Mikhailovich (talk) 14:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I wish people would concentrate on providing some sources for that article instead; it's a mess, and entirely unsourced. We would be far better served if somebody would create an article on the Se, a/k/a Shai, who are part of the Ga people group of cultures, rather than on their ruler. (Full disclosure: as it says on my userpage, I'm an anti-monarchist.) I've done some cleanup, removing dead links and NPOV violations. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

The method of finding the "Poverty level" of article that title, is NOT neutral Nor ACCURATE

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:34, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I am an actvist against poverty in Maine. I know poverty,Classism Hunger, homelessness,first hand and from empical research. For some reason, I am listed in Whose who in America. Poverty the cause of Hunger, Homelessness,Violence, and Imposed Silence, is held firm by MYTHS. It Is time to expose those myths Poverty Level is neither neutral, Nor Accurate.

The author of the "Poverty level" article does nothing more than hold firm a false belief. As someone working to end Poverty,I challenge the writers promoting of this false belief that all expensives were accounted for in poverty level. That is what we call a livable wage today.

The false idea simply is

Mollie Orshansky of Social Security Administration, in 1965, released a study on the American poverty level. IT WAS based upon the FOOD COST ALONE, not transportation, health care or rent.----- It was Not a Needs based assessment as the author mis-guides the reader. Rather than being all inclusive the poverty line was determind only the price of food. No Rent, health care, transportation, phone was included to say nothing about either savings or recreation.

In fact, Mollie, boss Ida’s Merriam, wrote in 1967, that "It is easy to observe that poverty in the U.S. today cannot meaningfully be defined in the same way as in the U.S. of 1900....obviously today's measure, even if corrected year by year for changes in the price level...should not be acceptable twenty, ten or perhaps even five years hence." Bold text

The 2009 does not carry the cost of inflated rent either. This Is not what Molly did. Mollies own boss said Mollys calulations would have to be redone in 2 to five years-it was not.

Inccorect lines in Misplaced Pages.'Italic textDetermining the poverty line is usually done by finding the total cost of all the essential resources that an average human adult consumes in one year. This approach is needs-based in that an assessment is made of the minimum expenditure needed to maintain a tolerable life. This was the original basis of the poverty line in the United States,'Bold text whose poverty threshold has since been raised due to inflation. THis Was NOT the Method. The information is false. The author is citing a Livable wage methodogy, Calling it a poverty Level. This Is middle class standards prevailing. What we have from 1965 until 2009, is a Defective, and flawed Poverty Level. Jan Lightfoot

Our current federal poverty level, is Mis-measure of Poverty. By Nicholas Eberstadt http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3930481.html

THIS IS A MAJOR EDIT — Preceding unsigned comment added by Janshouse (talkcontribs)

This is a collaborative project so please be bold and edit the article - if you do so, please bear in mind our guidelines about reliable sources, neutral point of view and original research. It may be a good idea first to discuss on the article's talk page the changes you want to make. – ukexpat (talk) 19:37, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

List of metropolitan areas in Europe by population

Hi,

I am concerned regarding the article List of metropolitan areas in Europe by population.

I was initially involved in corrected what appeared to me to be a factual inaccuracy only to be reverted on the basis of lack of reference which strikes me as fair enough. However even after providing official references my corrections were reverted again without justification. Since I wanted to avoid an unproductive revert war I went on the talk page only to realise that the very fact I wanted to correct was already subject of a discussion with a clear consensus in favour of the correction.

Furthermore the validity of the main source has been abundantly contested by many contributors.

After a few month and several unanswered discussions, modifications are still arbitrarily reverted to data generally considered as inaccurate.

To be honest I am a bit lost and confused regarding the situation. Ghaag (talk) 09:54, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi, could you be more specific as to which facts you corrected and which sources and discussions exactly you are referring to. There are a lot of statistics and a lot of discussions so it is important to be clear. Mfield (talk) 06:11, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi, specifically I was trying to modify the entry regarding the so-called Manchester-Liverpool area by referring to the British office of national statistics. The talk page discusses this specific topic multiple times in "#9 UK figures" & "#18 Manchester". Ghaag (talk) 00:53, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
As the main source of these articles appears to be publications of a one man band, namely Wendell Cox, allegedly a an opponent of public transport, it would seem that articles based solely on his data are unlikely to be encyclopaedic and should probably be deleted. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:26, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
A number of users have expressed similar concerns regarding the validity of the source on the article's talk page (#2, #9, #14,

#24, #26, #27) as well as many many more.

However I only tried to flag some specific data as dubious and the article as "disputed" which I hope is a reasonable and productive position given the context. I am also trying to engage the contributors into discussion rather than unilateral revert but to no avail so far.
Ghaag (talk) 02:13, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Correction to above - one other source is a one man band Stefan Helders and it appears that the Wiki pages are being owned by User:Polaron. Looks like a serious rethink of the purpose and need for these lists is required. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:36, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Ok, In accordance with WP:AD I tried to had a {{disputed}} and a {{dubious}} warnings pointing to the relevant section in the talk page in an attempt to draw more people in the discussion. Only to see it reverted without any input in the dicussions nor answer on the user talk page.
  • My question is should at least the warning be maintained on the page ?
Ghaag (talk) 04:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Advice on new Page

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:32, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I'm very new to wikipedia and want some advice on a page that I have created, but have left unpublished. I'm a volunteer for Friends of the Earth and want to create a neutral Friends of the Earth Europe page. Article can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Dunkind

Is this acceptable?

thanks, Dunkind —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dunkind (talkcontribs) 10:31, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Couple of issues: You have a conflict of interest and, although there is no rule against it, you are strongly advised not to edit/create related articles; second, the draft article is heavily promotional in tone and would probably be speedily deleted or heavily cut back into a stub. Is there any reason why a short section on FOE Europe cannot be added to the main Friends of the Earth article? – ukexpat (talk) 14:53, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Philip Hayton

Stale – Jezhotwells (talk) 02:31, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi. I'm looking for some advice regarding recent edits which were made to the article concerning the BBC journalist Philip Hayton. A section was added yesterday regarding an incident which allegedly occurred on September 11, 2001 where the collapse of WTC7 was reported some minutes before the event actually occurred. I removed it because the subject's controversial nature and because most of the references came from blogs. However, I've re-posted it on the talk page and opened a discussion there. The section has since been added to and while some of the information appears to check out, I'm not sure exactly what is and what is not appropriate here. Therefore I would appreciate some help and advice from someone a bit more experienced in natures of this matter. Thanks TheRetroGuy (talk) 11:26, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

You were absolutely right to revert it and open a discussion on the talk page. I am not sure that this rises to the level of a BLP issue, but it is controversial and the sources may be thin, so to the talk page it goes to reach consensus. If that fails then there are increasing levels of dispute resolution. – ukexpat (talk) 14:36, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Waingels College article

Resolved – ukexpat (talk) 19:51, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I was browsing the Waingels_College article, and there are some sections which are slightly controversial and completely unsourced - particularly the refurbishment and sports day history section. I don't want to edit myself as I'm an employee so I guess would be considered conflict of interest? But what should be done. It's a fairly insignificant article, so I thought posting on the talk page wouldn't attract a lot of useful comment.

Thanks. tanc (talk) 16:03, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. The talk page is the correct place to start. If it does not generate any replies after a few days, I would go ahead and make the changes with the appropriate references of course, noting same on talk page. – ukexpat (talk) 17:16, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
I've removed one unsourced statement from the article, and added a {{citations missing}} template. —Snigbrook 22:33, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. I'll do as suggested! tanc (talk) 19:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


Alisa Valdes-Rodriguez

This author became involved in a highly contentious dispute with the website AfterEllen.com, a highly respected and award winning RS site. The author's dispute (which proved to be fabrication on her part and not that of AfterEllen) is of great interest to her LGBTQ readership -- to whom she herself has reached out.

Her own justification for falsely accusing this site of misquoting her, as explained in the reference, is related to struggles with her sexuality. Alison (talk · contribs) has argued that this is "not true". But by the authors own admission, it is.

The details of this dispute have constantly been removed by the editor Alison, arguing that it does not meet BLP standards. As this is backed up by sources from a respected and verifiable site, this is simply not the case. This dispute is part of the story of this figure (who has positioned herself as an LGBTQ advocate) and should be public knowledge.

While I am willing to, grudgingly, remove the reference to struggles with her sexuality (although this was given as her justification for threatening and offensive comments about the lesbian community), the details of the dispute should be in the public domain?

Jsrchicago (talk) 05:34, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

At Misplaced Pages we have a very high burden of proof for information included on Biographies of Living Persons. Anything that is in any way controversial or potentially libellous must be reliably sourced to a primary THIRD PARTY source. AfterEllen.com are not and can never be an independent reliable source for information on a dispute they were involved in. If there were some coverage of the issue by a truly independent source then the matter could be discussed for inclusion. Until that point it is an absolute no no. Please also be aware of 3RR, which prohibits editors from more that 3 additions or reversions of the same content in a 24 hour period. It is in place to prevent the kind of edit warring which has been taking place on the article in question. Mfield (talk) 05:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, Mfield. That's exactly where I stand on the matter. It's already been discussed off-wiki in a number of places and frankly, the BLP subject must come first here. Misplaced Pages is not a vehicle for personal agendas, especially not at the expense of a BLP subject - Alison 06:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
My understanding, from an admin on this board, is that Misplaced Pages's stance on editing is as follows:
"There is no tampering going on, anyone and everyone can edit wikipedia, that is one of the guiding principles of :::the project. What the subject would like to see in a biographical article about themselves is irrelevant and POV, :::providing the facts in question are notable, verifiable and do not infringe the subject's privacy."
The dispute with AfterEllen would constitute "notable, verifiable and do not infringe on the subject's privacy". The :::point of contention, being her sexuality. Given that the subject herself brought her struggles with her sexuality :::into the public domain this is worthy of note and no infringement on privacy.
So, if a third party source can be found (http://guanabee.com/2009/02/alisa-valdes-rodriguez-lesbians), then this is :::a legitimate edit? user:jsrchicago:jsrchicago
That blog is not a reliable source - see also verifiability/self published sources. Mfield (talk) 14:32, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
What about this one, then? http://www.lesbilicious.co.uk/books-art/interview-alisa-valdes-rodriguez-on-bisexuality-and-the-haters/ . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.22.234.235 (talk) 15:15, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

James Arbuthnot

Please would somebody review this in the light of WP:UNDUE and BLP. Kittybrewster 07:40, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

What is the problem? I've looked at the article, fixed a broken link, can't see any issues other than the fact that the Infobox would give a casual viewer the impression that he was still Chief Whip. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:09, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
It's a member of Kittybrewster's family, and I think he considers it unflattering. Unfortunately the references clearly support his being a member of the Conservative Party, so there isn't much we can do about the fact that the article identifies him as such. Guy (Help!) 22:41, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Ah, yes nowt much to be done! Jezhotwells (talk) 22:48, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

David Downie entry

Hello, I am not a frequent user of your site, in part because I am legally blind. Yesterday after much to-do, I managed to create an account specifically to correct errors in the entry about me, David D. Downie. I did not write the entry, I had no desire for the entry to be on your site, but I was told by colleagues that it existed, and had errors, and was out of date, all of which was true. I made the needed corrections and brought the entry up to date. I now see that it is flagged as an autobiography, something I purportedly wrote about myself, and this looks very unappetizing indeed, and casts me in a poor light. Please let me know how this can be resolved. Thank you. David Downie

The second part of that tag says: "...or has been extensively edited by the subject..." which is indeed the case. The tag alerts readers to the fact that the article may not maintain a neutral point of view because someone who has edited it, in this case you, has a conflict of interest. Also, with all due respect, we have no way of knowing that you are indeed David Downie. If you have concerns about the article, please discuss them on the article's talk page. – ukexpat (talk) 17:19, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I removed the tags as I don't think they are needed, the article doesn't appear to have been extensively edited by the subject (other than a few minor changes, only two short paragraphs of updated information were added), there are no obvious NPOV problems and no problems have been mentioned on the talk page. —Snigbrook 18:53, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
"Extensively" does not really apply to a single edit, I would say. Especially when he's correcting errors. Let's try not to be complete assholes, eh? Guy (Help!) 22:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Richard C. Fuisz

Could you help with Richard Carl Fuisz? The page is being voraciously edited by the cousin of a Susan Lindauer who implicated Dr. Fuisz as a CIA control agent during her spy case (sounds ridiculous I know) Richard Arthur Norton. The page needs help of course, but I think it should be done by someone with a NPOVChitownhustler (talk) 17:40, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

What point of view is Norton establishing, aside from adding references, and removing unreferenced material from a BLP? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:35, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

It does not appear from a quick look over that Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk · contribs) is editing the article in such a way as to advance any position. Removal of unreferenced potentially controversial material from a BLP is policy whatever relation the editor may have to the subject. The article seems to be much improved over its state a few days ago, with the addition of much additional referencing. The editor does not seem to be denying being distantly related to the subject and is experienced enough to aware of the COI guidelines. Which edits are you specifically concerned about? Mfield (talk) 20:13, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I have no personal knowledge about Lindauer or Fuisz, beyond what is available online. The Lindauer article doesn't mention Fuisz, and the Fuisz article doesn't mention Lindauer. However, Chitownhustler is a single purpose account created just to edit the Fuisz article. That account has been adding personal, unsourced information, for which I have been adding sources where I can find it, and adding fact tags where it is still unsourced. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:48, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Richard- please don't tell me the Lindauer article doesn't mention Richard Fuisz-you referenced it, and your geneology site lists Susan as your cousin.Chitownhustler (talk) 22:14, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Also a note to say that the recent editing of the article including deletions of sourced content by Fuiszt (talk · contribs) raises more COI concerns than Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk · contribs), I am kind of surprised that has not been brought up first Mfield (talk) 21:26, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree the Fuiszt deletions are also suspect.Chitownhustler (talk) 22:14, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Be specific and show specific edits that you have concern over. The Fuisz article makes no mention of Lindauer and the Lindauer article makes no mention of Fuisz. There is one New York Times article used as a reference in common in both articles. Please note that I am related to every editor of Misplaced Pages, including you. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Frankly, it may take more than a quick look to see what is removed and what has been inserted. Removal of mention of the endowed chair of medicine at Georgetown, removal of references to Baxter's guilty plea following Fuisz's volunteering of memos pertaining to the arab blacklist, changing the name of the page to Richard Carl Fuisz (he never uses his middle name in business etc.). Richard Arthur Norton has also done a fair amount of editing for Susan Lindauer's page on wikipedia, again without any comment about his relation to her (a relationship easy to find on a google search since Mr Norton is apparently a geneology fan). Looking back, the Fuiszt add/edits were explored on his or her talk page, but the are dwarfed by the quantity of edits done by Mr Norton.Chitownhustler (talk) 22:36, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

My first edit was to this version which had no inline citations and seven external links. If you want to write a personal essay, or an unreferenced biography, its best to start a blog. This is an encyclopedia, and only referenced material is allowed. What is with the Susan Lindauer red herring? What are you implying? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:38, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Actually while there were a lot of Fuiszt (talk · contribs) edits in 2007, there have been 2, deleting referenced content, within the last 36 hours days, in fact just before you started editing the article. Mfield (talk) 22:46, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

45 or so edits since end of January by my count for Richard Norton. My concern about his objectivity was piqued by this interchange on Susan Lindauer's talk page " I will act as your intermediate to help you with the process of fixing any errors. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:48, 26 January 2009 (UTC) Richard, I think your revision is excellent, much better and much more NPOV than some of the earlier versions with excellent references. I added a couple of minor tweaks for clarity.

  • And what does one have to do with the other? Are you a conspiracy theorist? An IP address claiming to be Susan Lindauer was deleting my changes to the Susan Lindauer article. A reference in the New York Times mentions Fuiszt, so I started editing there. Where is the sinister conspiracy, and what secret point of view am I pushing? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:40, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

No mention of family relationship. There is one though, as well as a connection between Susan Lindauer and Richard C. Fuisz. Encyclopedias are generally not written by family members or those with an axe to grindChitownhustler (talk) 23:09, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

From my looking at this Chitownhustler it looks very much like you are overthinking the situation. There is no evidence of COI or POV editing on the part of Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ). There is a fairly distant relationship and there has been no sign of actively attempting to conceal that fact. The exchange with Susan Lindauer is not inappropriate if she had a real COI and he was genuinely offering to help correct errors. Nothing was being concealed as evidenced by their conversation on a talk page rather than by an off wiki means. I suggest at this point that you return to article talk where if you have anything to dispute content wise you bring it up there as that is the correct place and other editors can voice their opinions too. There does not appear that this EAR has shed any light on untoward going on. I suggest AGF in the absence of evidence to the contrary and working to make sure that the article is the most factually correct and well referenced it can be. Mfield (talk) 23:57, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

So why is Richard Norton continuing to remove ref's and facts from the page? The ref I added today attributes the baxter guilty plea at least partially to documents provided by Fuisz, but it disagrees with Richard Norton's previous edits so he deletes it (5 minutes after its added). I'm trying to believe he wants to make it a better page, why I'm not sure, but it's getting hard to do.Chitownhustler (talk) 18:25, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

  • User:Chitownhustler is a single use account created to edit the article. The editor appears to have personal knowledge of the subject of the article and appears to be writing a personal essay with out sourcing. I added fact tags to information that I have not found a source for yet. Chitownhustler is now adding references to the article, but the reference I removed at least twice, doesn't mention the subject in the article. It would be better if Chitownhustler started with a reliable source and then edited the article, instead of starting with a personal essay, and then shopping for references. That way the exact wording with match. Every source, but the single one on a patent was added by Chitownhustler, has been added by me. All properly formatted, all containing the exact quote in context, using the quote function in the cite template. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:53, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Please help me understand then that when the direct quote from the source is "As a result of Fuisz's documentation and testimony, Baxter pled guilty in March 1993 to violation of U.S. anti-boycott laws and was fined $6.5 million" from this source , Richard Norton removes this from the page "Baxter was the first US company to every plead guilty to compliance with the Arab Boycott -- a first attributable to the source material supplied by Fuisz. " Is there something I'm missing? Or is Richard Norton removing facts without reading the source completely?Chitownhustler (talk) 19:48, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

You tried to sneak in the text to ride on one of my references. But my reference on the case made no mention of Fuisz at all. You readded it back, then the third time you added the above reference. Cheers. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 06:15, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Advice sought on serious WP:CIVIL violations

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Banned user has been advised how to appeal. Further evasion of the block will not be tolerated. Guy (Help!) 18:53, 23 February 2009 (UTC)


I would like to report two editors for serious violations of WP:Civil, namely WhatamIdoing and Gordonofcartoon. Their comments can be seen on the POVcivilPushing page here Please note that they have made a lot of statements about me which are simply not true, which is evident from the fact that neither of them have provided diffs despite them constantly tag teaming against me for 12 months e.g. here and here and having ready access to them. Here is one diff that they didn't show . WhatamIdoing refers to tactics such as "attitude readjustment tools" which are linked to information e.g. here about starting edit wars to troll newbies out of Misplaced Pages with the assistance of other editors outside of the normal honest and open discussion methods, and which is in itself a serious violation of the principles of Misplaced Pages that I could discuss later. However Gordonofcartoon refers to Guido den Broeder, the founder of the Netherlands CFS society, as Bilbo von Booger, which is a serious violation of WP:CIVIL. Then Gordonofcartoon refers to our previous discussions where I have won every evidence based argument, and tries to give the impression that I am in the wrong by describing my successful defences against their long list of false accusation, with Gordonofcartoon ending his tirade with the words "and so on and on and on and f***ing f***ing on)".

Note that if a politician used that type of language he would be escorted out of parliament and banned from politics by his party, and his constituents, and if a radio or television announcer used those words they would be taken off air immediately and sacked. Gordonofcartoon would try to annoy me by arguing that I was only guessing the missing letters, or that the fact that those obvious letters are missing is an excuse for claiming that they were not uncivil, and would try to find a policy clause a of paragraph b of some policy that meant it wasn't spelt out therefore it wasn't a violation, but I know that they were trying to provoke me into being uncivil and that they would have used it as solid grounds for immediately banning me.

I do not think it is appropriate for other editors to stand back and do nothing here, as if condoning that sort of conduct. Tag teaming, flame wars, unsupported personal attacks, the offensive misuse of code ID's, and foul language should not be tolerated, and the fact that those two editors have collectively provided 20000 edits means that they are fully aware of the inappropriate nature of their incivility, and cannot be used as an excuse. They should both be immediately and permanently banned from wikipedia in order to set an example for new editors on "how not to edit", and in order to reassure readers and the general public that Misplaced Pages is a respectable, honest, open and trustworthy source of information compiled by editors who have integrity. I would then recommend that you lift the ban on me, as it resulted from an RFC that was closed by Wizardman in violation of policy while still active , and an arbitration page that was closed by an admin named Moreschi on a Thursday here before the "regular" arbitrators could see my defense on Sunday which I mentioned her

This would be banned user Posturewriter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) here. If you want your ban overturned, e-mail the ArbCom. I doubt using an IP to evade the ban will be received positively. Tony Fox (arf!) 07:43, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Tony Fox: Are you saying that you represent all of the other editors in Misplaced Pages and condone the conduct of the few editors who ignore the standard editing principles, and act as a gang of trolls by using "attitude readjustment tools" to control content to selectively ban newbies. If so why should anyone take the unblock process seriously when it requires AGF. From my understanding of wikipedia policy a person does not have to continue showing AGF where there is evidence that it is not justified, so why don't you try and convince me by banning WhatamIdoing and Gordonofcartoon for violating WP:CIVIIL, instead of changing the subject?????
You're banned, PW. If you want to complain, please do it through proper channels as Tony indicated above. IP socking to complain (especially as obtusely as you did above) isn't going to help. Dayewalker (talk) 08:18, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Tony Fox and Dayewalker; this page is called Editor assistance/Requests, which is why I have asked the editors here to assist me in getting WhatamIdoing and Gordonofcartoon banned for violating WP:civil etc
Please also note that I am using my own computer, on my own phone line and have not made any attempt to hide my Misplaced Pages ID from the honest and respectable editors on this page who are willing to act as policy police and referees. I have however, not signed my comments for the sole purpose of giving honest editors the opportunity to see the information before my policy violating critics get time to delete it, or add their spin to every word I write.
You will therefore appreciate that SmokeyJoes attempt at accusing me of using my own computer and my own phone line as a way of hiding my ID or of using it as a sockpuppet is ridiculous spin. Since I am using my own computer I hope honest editors will appreciate my sense of humor when I say that you wouldn't call SmokeyJoe Sherlock Wiki Holmes
You. Are. Banned. You are evading a block as we speak. I see that the original block has been adjusted so that you can edit User talk:Posturewriter with your main account directly so that you can lodge an appeal; as that is the case, I'll be blocking this IP for said evasion. Tony Fox (arf!) 17:33, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Difficulties resolving NPOVD in article Energy Accounting

Me and some other editors have a NPOVD going on with the article Energy Accounting. It has been going on for two weeks now (see talkpage as from here) and starts to be really tiresome and infected by now. The main points:

  • I believe the article is not complying with NPOV since the article is mainly describing the concept energy accounting in the view of Technocracy Incorporated (TechInc), and not in a NPOV.
  • The editor who has made the most edits of the article, Skipsievert, disagrees about this. Curiously enough, he has provided me links outside WP to the concept of energy accounting, which actually confirms my view, that energy accounting is a general concept and not a concept alone belonging to TechInc. Also a google search on the concept reveals most hits to pages not talking about the energy accounting as a concept of TechInc, but rather as a general concept.
  • Further, I see reasons to suspect that there is a high risk of POV violations, since the three main editors of the article (they have made almost 300 edits out of approx totally 370) are all in one way or another advocates of the ideas of TechInc (see here, here and here). Although this may be to go too far for me, if my view that the article in question is violating NPOV, it may be a reason to look over the other articles in the Category:Technocracy movement.
  • I have tried to argue that the there is actually a dispute going on over the article, and I and an other editor have POV-tagged the article several times, but Skipsievert has removed the tag almost as soon as it has been put up. This must be an obvious breaking of WP:NPOVD.
  • I may go too far now, but it seems that Skipsievert is trying to protect the article in question by being very hard to cooperate with, and trying to tire us others out. He accuses me and an other editor for just complaining, not understanding the subject in the article, and so forth. He reported one very experienced editor (Johnfos) on the WP:WQA which maybe was juridically correct, but not a way to improve the atmosphere between us editors; on the contrary it may scare other editors who have a different opinion from contribute to the discussion and to the improvement of the article (that user has just now become semi-retired, maybe it was caused by feeling the WQA-report against him was disproportionate and not fair and therefore getting tired of the whole WP project?). It feels like he tries to look clean by accusing and discredit others, a really dubious method I think.
  • The WQA issue mentioned above, was then closed as resolved by Skipsievert himself. Is that really allowed? I think the issue wasn't resolved at all. One of the editors in that discussion who didn't agree with Skipsievert, was just (on dubious grounds I think) dismissed by Skipsievert as being biased.
  • Skipsievert accuses me for axgrinding. I can assure you I have no interests at all in putting up a certain POV, and I have nothing personally against Skipsievert. I'm just eager to have a neutral WP. On the contrary, the links and other information Skipsievert has provided to me seems very interesting, also the TechInc stuff. But it has to be presented in a clear and neutral way, that's my opinion and WP's.

What I ask for:

  1. Help us to find the right place to solve this conflict. It's really a mess here on WP with all the different places you can go for mediation and the like. It took me an hour to write this section; I don't wanna do that over and over again.
  2. Help us resolve the dispute, and tell us from the above-mentioned what behaviour is correct.
  3. To put av POV-tag on the article and explain for Skipsievert that he cannot take it away until the dispute is over.
  4. Have a look at the article and give us an experienced view whether the article is presented in a NPOV or not.
  5. Provide suggestions of how to improve the article to make it NPOV (if you agree it's not NPOV).

Mårten Berglund (talk) 20:50, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Hanswar References

I am having difficulty with a new editor User:Nafees 1979 who is repeatedly adding people as references to the Hanswar article. See article history. Repeated attempts to get his attention including big bold text asking the editor to read the note on his talk page, User talk:Nafees 1979 have failed to elicit any response. Another editor has warned him for vandalism, but I believe the editor is new and acting in good faith and simply doesn't understand. I'm looking for assistance to get through to this editor as my own attemtps have failed, and WP:AIV doesn't see appropriate. -- Whpq (talk) 13:37, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes a short block after the usual warnings is the only way to get the attention of an uncommunicative editor. So if a report to WP:AIV is the next step, then so be it. – ukexpat (talk) 18:26, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I guess you`re right. I'm trying to be mindful of WP:BITE but at a certain point, sterner measures are needed. Thanks for the advice. Please consider this request resolved. Regards. -- Whpq (talk) 03:19, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

University page being vandalized

Someone keeps adding a section entitled "Oppressive Regulations" stating several opinions with no verification. I know many of them to be false or heavily POV. Every time I remove it, someone adds it back. The university's president is listed as a puppet and was previously had his name hyperlinked to a porn site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quixar (talkcontribs)

I've reverted, and watchlisted the page. If it continues, I'll semiprotect it for a while. Tony Fox (arf!) 17:21, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Need help updating company information

I would like some help with the article AVADirect. Our company has decided to expand the information about our company. We would like to expand with as much information as possible, but do not want to be deleted due to marketing. We want to expand on our history, add our reviews we add, and also our product lines. Anything else we should post, please let me know. Avadirect (talk) 18:57, 23 February 2009 (UTC)Avadirect Avadirect (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

This C.O.I. s.p.a. role account has been blocked as a spamusername. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:35, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Senator Bill Heffernan

An editor seems to be persistently deleting information about the Australian politician Bill Heffernan. In 2002 the politician accused a High Court Justice of using a government car to pick up boy prostitutes. This was later found to be a fabrication. He also suggested that the openly gay man should be charged for homosexual acts committed before 1984 (when it was made legal). I believe it is inappropriate for this information to be deleted from the page as it was a major controversy. What can I do if the editor continues to delete it?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Loki12345 (talkcontribs)

First discuss on the article's talk page. If that proves fruitless, dispute resolution is next. – ukexpat (talk) 22:02, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

false vandalism claim

Hi, I'm having some trouble with a specific editor, Chaldor, on the oral rehydration therapy page. If you look at the history, he's basically taken over the page, and deletes any contributions that are not his own. This is especially problematic since the history section is quite limited in scope, and lacks any context. When I try to add historical context, he deletes it, presumably because he did not himself write it. When I added it back, he had me reported for vandalism.

Based on the wiki vandalism info, it seems like our disagreement would fall under stubbornness...

Stubbornness

Some users cannot come to agreement with others who are willing to talk to them about an editing issue, and repeatedly make changes opposed by everyone else. This is regrettable—you may wish to see our dispute resolution pages to get help. Repeated deletion or addition of material may violate the three-revert rule, but this is not "vandalism" and should not be dealt with as such. See also Tendentious editing

If a user treats situations which are not clear vandalism as such, then it is he or she who is actually harming the encyclopedia by alienating or driving away potential editors.

I think the fundamental problem is that Chaldor thinks he owns the oral rehydration therapy page. Obviously, I hope this type of thing is frowned upon. It's detrimental to page's quality to have a single person controlling it, and deleting anything that he does not write. I'm sad to say, but Chaldor's dictatorial attitude is stifling improvement of the page, and a detriment to wikipedia.

Could you please help? What is the recourse against a false vandalism report?

Thanks,

129.170.125.75 (talk) 22:37, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

As is stated above you can get help at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. If you read that page and then perhaps ask for help from Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal Jezhotwells (talk) 22:53, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Another pair of eyes?

Could I get another pair of eyes to look at a pattern of edits by User:Chcoc? I'm not enough of a content expert to judge, but there seems to be a consistent POV and languange bias with this new editor's work. There's a lot of changing 'Syraic' to 'Assyrian' across a wide range of articles. Thanks, Chuckiesdad/Talk/Contribs 03:19, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Aish Hatorah

Individuals are repeatedly posting content which is unsourced and from websites which are biased against the organziations. If its so accurate and such a major deal why cant they find any media on it ? I dispute the authenticity and would appreciate assistance.

Dejan Antonić

User:HKfans852 is kept undoing my edit on the article Dejan Antonić. I have already written a meassge on his talk page for asking for the reason, but not reply after I have waited more than 10 days. I nearly do no change in the content, but he kept reverting the edit, including deleting the link to other language of the article, that already added by the bot twice. I think the problem cannot be resloved by leaving a message on his talk page. So, what action should be taken? Thanks. --Antonytse (talk) 14:23, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Note: User:HKfans852 apparently does not exist; I assume you mean User talk:Hkfans852. (I'm including this information so someone can use it to help.) -- Why Not A Duck 23:22, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Utah Boys Ranch Page

I am requesting assistance with the Utah Boys Ranch / West Ridge Academy page. A user by the name of R.Fiend is vandalizing the article and removing cited material.

--Utahboysranchnetwork (talk) 23:37, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Might I suggest that you check out Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution and /or seek the help of WP:Mediation cabal Jezhotwells (talk) 01:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
The original poster's user name is clearly in breach of the user name policy and has been reported as such. – ukexpat (talk) 02:32, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
And now blocked. – ukexpat (talk) 03:37, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Yet another one who Plaxicoed himself. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:38, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

~~Please Create Page About "Alex Gilbert"~~

He has enough music releases to be on Misplaced Pages

He has 6 albums selling on the iTunes Music Store and he has many sites about him

heres him on Discogs:

http://www.discogs.com/artist/Alex+Gilbert

Please Create a Decient Article About this Artist

and please Admins please lock the article incase vadalism happens

thanks Filming NZ

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Alex_gilbert"

His website is here: www.alexgilbertstudios.co.nr

Please Help Thanks FilmingNZ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Filmingnz (talkcontribs) 04:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Looks like he's a 16-year-old who's got a bunch of self-released albums, and doesn't appear to have had much of any outside references. You need to show that he meets these guidelines for an article to stick around here. Tony Fox (arf!) 05:09, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Thought that looked familiar... it's been deleted previously. And repeatedly. Tony Fox (arf!) 17:08, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Kripalu Center

Hoping that someone could give 5 minutes to address some concerns we have at Kripalu Center, particularly whether or not the entire economics section is encyclopedic. This is also discussed at the talk page. The entire article could some degree of attention. Thanks! --ThujaSol 17:38, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Section removal from Right to keep and bear arms

I think it would be helpful, to understand this issue better, to read the text below on face value without following all the lnks I have given in the first instance. The references can of course be followed thru later at leisure.

BACKGROUND On 14 Feb I added a section to the article entitled "Correlation between gun ownership and gun deaths" which was effectively drawing the link between the actions of campaigners who wish to restrict the Right to keep and bear arms who often point to the correlations discovered by researchers between the high level of gun ownership and the high level of deaths from guns and correspondingly the low levels of gun violence in countries with low levels of gun ownership. The intial edit is here. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Right_to_keep_and_bear_arms&diff=270583927&oldid=270565333

The initial edit was a first attempt and did not contain too many references. The section was deleted several times and reinstated several times, and at one point (here http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Right_to_keep_and_bear_arms&diff=271201858&oldid=270583927) the section got renamed as "Gun violence and the politics of the right to bear arms".

The section has been controversial and several editors have sought to delete it. One editor User;Yaf actually deleted it in breach of 3RR but I generously did not report him (although he tried to blank references to this at some place(s). The final version which was deleted (and should be the main focus of attention) is here

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Right_to_keep_and_bear_arms&oldid=272894916. It was deleted by an editor not logged in but deleted the edit within minutes of User;Yaf deleting it and me reinstating it.

CONTENTIOUS ISSUES Editors have claimed the section is either POV pushing, not conforming with NPOV, WP:OR or else WP:SYN. The most serious focus of attack has been the claim that it comprises WP:SYN.

Most of the discussions about this have been discussed in the the talk page in the sections here and here.

I would like to use WP:EA to review this deletion and determine whether its deletion was justified.

(P.S. I see some editors are continuing to argue about this edit, which I personally view as pointless until we get an independent review. The issue is a simple one to review. Either the edit was WP:SYN or it wasn't. Either it was WP:POV or it wasn't. And WP:OR or not. A simple assessment on the right and wrong interpretation is all that we need to make collective progress. The issue has not gone stale just because I am not contributing to that ongoing discussion.--Hauskalainen (talk) 16:14, 27 February 2009 (UTC))


ADVICE IS SOUGHT FROM NON-U.S. BASED EDITORS ONLY

I know how controversial this article and its content is in the United States. I therefore would like assistance from an editor who is not in the United States so that this can focus purely on WP policies and not be infuenced by their own personal opinions. Because I have been accused (falsely in my opinion) of canvassing (see next section), the person providing assistance should not be User:HowardBerry.

you're making the broad assumption that merely being a citizen of the US predisposes editors to being biased, and that editors outside the US are not predisposed to being biased. that's overtly contra to WP:AGF. Anastrophe (talk) 18:47, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

For information (not really relevent to the main issue but added for completeness)

Before making this request I used a proxy account to raise this matter with User:HowardBerry, a contributor in the UK who is listed in the Editor Assistance page as someone who can help in disputes. I did so because I wanted to discuss the issue in general terms to know how to proceed, especially as I have some particular concerns about the editors at the article and the possible presence of persons in an advisory or administrative capacity who allow personal prejudices to sway their response (whether knowingly or otherwise). I have too much experience of editing controversial articles in areas covered by powerful and well funded lobby groups to know that this kind of thing goes on. I happened to make a single edit in the wrong account and my silent approach to this person involved in WP:EA became exposed. I have since been accused of sock puppetry, meat puppetry, canvassing, and heaven knows what else, but in my opinion, my actions were perfectly reasonable and well within the rules. You can see the consequences here , here and here

Hauskalainen (talk) 18:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

using a "proxy account" to raise the matter is the very definition of sockpuppetry. this requires sanctions. Anastrophe (talk) 18:48, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
also, you contradict yourself blatantly above. you claim that you raised the matter with howardberry using a proxy account "because i wanted to discuss the issue in general terms ". then you claim "I happened to make a single edit in the wrong account and my silent approach to this person involved in WP:EA became exposed.". so, you admit doing it purposefully, then claim you did it accidentally. Anastrophe (talk) 18:51, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
May I ask why my own neutrality has been brought into this discussion? I have found several comments in different wikipedia pages relating to me and this issue, with the moniker "meatpuppet" banded about quite a lot. Firstly, I would state that I have not been swayed by any supposed canvassing; secondly, I informed the user in question to go through WP:EAR and then I would look into it; and thirdly, I have not engaged myself in editing or becoming involved with the editing of any of the articles in question, nor have I contacted any of the users in question regarding the comments left on my talk page. I have totally kept out of the debate. Now I see it is being stated that I am not allowed to be involved. I see nothing wrong in my actions that merit such a statement and it seems as if I am being accused of being impartial or as having been solicited as a "meatpuppet" when my actions prove otherwise. I would hope for an explanation and an apology. Howie 06:53, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Howie. It's because these people are desperate to throw dirt, that they don't really care who gets hit in the process. The key things for anyone reading this to know is that
(a) Under WP:EA, approaching an editor directly IS ALLOWED (it says to do via the assister's talk page, which is what I did),
(b) my using an alternate account was because I wanted to get the advice in private
(c) I was not hiding my real identity from you. I made it easy for you to work out who I am. SO I am not a sockpuppet.
(d) I made it clear that I did not want you to edit the article (so soliciting a meat puppet is also clearly a false accusation)
(e) It was me who suggested that you now don't get involved (only because I want to protect you from such accusations as meat-puppetry, but as you see, I am already too late). But if you are prepared to put up with an assault on your reputation, you are welcome to try! Personally I'd sugggest you don't.

I agree wholeheartedly that you deserve an apology from the people who have made accusations against you. Funnily enough I think I need some apologies too from much the same people (but somehow I do not think that they will be forthcoming). I for one certainly apologise to you for the consequences of my approach to you (even though I acted with honour throughout and I have not been the issuer of any of the false acusations made against you). I am especially aggrieved by the statements of Edit Centric made towards me. I have come across such editors in the past in articles of a contentious nature, Their actions are ugly and they and their friends are such they always want to have the last word on the matter. See if I am right.--Hauskalainen (talk) 11:47, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Language issues and references

What's the general policy or guideline for using references that are published in a different language than the main article? My current prediciment involves another user who added some really dubious information to an English-language page, but the reference he cited was in Ukrainian, and I can't find an easy way to translate it. I'm wondering that, if anyone else is reading the article in English, how will they be able to use or judge the reference themselves? What's the point of it then? Shouldn't it belong on the Ukrainian version of the page? -LogisticEarth (talk) 23:12, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The standard is reliable sources, without regard to language (or being online, or cost). This does make it difficult sometimes; while a lot of Misplaced Pages is based on free web resources in English, there's no such requirement. Studerby (talk) 23:36, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Is there some pool of translators or something like that that I could get to look over the page, translate it, or judge it's veracity? -LogisticEarth (talk) 23:52, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Consider calling the article and edit to general attention here, so that others could perhaps ponder the likely reliability of the article, source, and edit? Xenophon777 (talk) 00:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

The article in question is in this section of the Honey wikipedia article:Honey#Preservation The paragraph in question is:

"Heating up to 37°С causes loss of nearly 200 components, part of which are antibacterial. Heating up to 40°С destroys invertase, and important enzyme. Heating up to 50°С turns the honey into caramel (the most valuable honey sugars become analogous to sugar). Generally any larger temperature fluctuation (10°С is ideal for preservation of ripe honey) causes decay."

The referenced web article for this info is here: Thanks in advance for any help/insight -LogisticEarth (talk) 02:54, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Gharjamai

User:Xghostfacexx insists on adding obscene language and superflous text to the page claiming he is the original writer. Keeps reverting cleanup edits calling them vandalism, even after User:Alansohn reviewed and declared the edits to be otherwise. Links provided in article do not match up to the information they are linked to. User has been warned twice, he removed vandalism warnings from his talk page. Request third party opinion. I've kept the page as it is after his latest revert, my version was this Anish7 (talk) 00:42, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

User SamJohnson posting false accusations of sockpuppetry

User:SamJohnston has accused me of being a sockpuppet on multiple occasions. His accusations are unfounded. When asked for proof, he claims to be "workign on it", but repeatedly adds the sockpuppet banner to my user talk page. I would like him to stop these actions. Quite frankly, I have no idea where he got the idea from, except for the fact that I had an old account without unification (just fixed that) and I have commented a few times recently (as a relative noob) with out logging in and also without signing my comments properly. Thanks you Memsom (talk) 01:06, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

To be clear - one account - but it said it was "old style" without unification. When it ran the unification process, it only found one user, which was this one I use now. Memsom (talk) 01:21, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Actually the accusations were genuine and an investigation was filed with evidence (Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Memsom) but closed after User:Memsom explained himself (above and on talk pages). -- samj in 03:29, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Having read the case, I can see where Sam was coming from - it did look dodgy to me too, until you realise that the IP address that cause the most suspect edit - indeed the one that caused an admin to reopen the case and ask for more details, was nothing to do with me. As far as I'm concerned, SamJ and I have put aside any personal issues we have and agreed not to put ourselves in to a conflict situation again. For my part, I have made a conscious decision not to get involved with any of SamJ's edits or pages SamJ has a strong presence on (he lists a number on his user page). Memsom (talk) 13:51, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Maybe people won't suspect that you are a sock if you don't give them reason to LetsdrinkTea 23:51, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Seasteading

I would like to request some assistance on the Seasteading page. I have a fairly clear bias against the subject, in that I am responding to a knee-jerk emotional reaction against what I see as rampant promotion by people pushing a libertarian agenda, creating a myriad of poorly-sourced pages (another page I recently gutted was Free State Project, many of these pages are sourced almost exclusively from self-published websites of the organizations themselves). I nominated it for deletion, but was convinced by other users that the page was notable enough for inclusion. I recently removed material from a self-published source that I saw no evidence for reliability. I'm worried about getting into an WP:Edit War, however...which is why I'm posting here for assistance. I am requesting two things: (1) some help/backup for maintaining high standards of quality sources, (2) a sense of perspective so that I am kept from being over-zealous in my quest to clean up these pages. I'm starting to get frustrated/annoyed with users which is never a good thing for me being unbiased. Cazort (talk) 03:31, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I have formatted sources, removed dupes and citations as the article is properly referenced and is definitely about a notable movement. Jezhotwells (talk) 02:26, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

chariots of fire

The article on the film Chariots of Fire, characterizes the story this way: "The story compares the similar athletic experiences of Abrahams and Liddell while portraying their vastly different characters and reactions to adversity, one who refuses to compromise his principles and one who is more than willing to bend the rules."

The basis for this slur, was that Abrahams used a professional coach, which the article alleges violated the rules. The fact is the coach in question, according to the Misplaced Pages article on Sam Mussabini coached a great many Olympic athletes in prior Olympics and in the 1924 event itself. I have been unable to find any source which supports the existence of such a rule. Indeed, quite the contrary.

In an article written for Perseus at Tufts University, the following quote appears about the ancient Olympics.

"Many athletes employed professional trainers to coach them, and they adhered to training and dietary routines much like athletes today."

Here is the citation.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Olympics/amat.html

It should also be noted, according to the Chariot article itself, it was Liddell who introduced Abraham to Mussabini, hardly what would be the expected behavior of someone of principle, if using a professional coach was prohibited. Moreover - and I mean to take nothing away from Liddell - the same article points out that contrary to the movie fabrication that he only learned of the Sunday conflict, between his religious beliefs and running, just before he left for Paris, he learned of it months before. Therefore there was no moral choice facing Liddell or refusal to compromise on his part.

What we have then is a fabricated story to besmirch Abrahams, a fabricated story to honor Liddell and I note finally, earlier in the article, Abrahams is identified as Jewish and Liddell, Christian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.186.127.83 (talk) 16:00, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

This is a content issue and should be discussed on the article's talk page: Talk:Chariots of Fire. – ukexpat (talk) 17:04, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Cape Cod Community College

I am a long time reader of wikipedia, but just started contributing. A few months ago, while reading the article on Cape Cod Community College, I noticed that the entry listed "Harvard of the Middle Cape" as a nickname for the school. That seemed odd, so I decided to add a citation. I googled the phrase, and was unable to find any reference to this other than the various sites that copy wikipedia entries verbatim. I put in a citation needed, and nothing much happened. I then removed the nickname, and asked in the edit history that anybody who put it back please put a citation as well. It got added back by an anonymous IP. I fixed it again, referencing Misplaced Pages:Citing, asking that anybody who put it back please include a citation. It got added back *again* yesterday, with nothing in the edit history other than, "tru cape coders know this name is real." It's obviously unproductive to keep up an edit war, and the person who keeps doing this doesn't have an account I can send a message to for resolution purposes. So what do I do next? Downfall2209 (talk) 16:39, 27 February 2009 (UTC).

Simple fact is that things need to be backed up by citations; I've removed the nickname, as per your comment here that you couldn't find any references for it. I see the IPs have said it's "common knowledge" - well, common knowledge means not much in terms of WP:RS. I'll keep an eye on the article and deal with it if necessary. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:59, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

would like to request articles?

any help? --Dairywebz (talk) 00:37, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

you are a registered editor you can create articles yourself. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:26, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
There is a system for requesting articles, but it relies on someone else caring enough to make the article for you, which is pretty unlikely. In case you don't know how to make articles for yourself, here's a standard message:
Before creating an article, please search Misplaced Pages first to make sure that an article does not already exist on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines which all articles should comport with. As Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain original research, must be written from a neutral point of view, should cite to reliable sources which verify their content and must not contain unsourced, negative content about living people.
Articles must also demonstrate the notability of the subject. Please see our subject specific guidelines for people, bands and musicians, companies and organizations and web content and note that if you are closely associated with the subject, our conflict of interest guideline strongly recommends against you creating the article.
If you still think an article is appropriate, see Help:Starting a new page. You might also look at Misplaced Pages:Your first article and Misplaced Pages:How to write a great article for guidance, and please consider taking a tour through the Misplaced Pages:Tutorial so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. Algebraist 02:29, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

dispute on an article's content

Hello! I have been in a dispute with Scorpion0422 over the "Cultural references" section in Marge vs. the Monorail. The discussion is taking place on the talk page, Talk:Marge vs. the Monorail. I've tried to follow Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution, which brought me to this page.

I'm just wondering whether I've been handling the dispute resolution process correctly. In addition, are my statements regarding the content of the "Cultural references" section reasonable? --Edp318 (talk) 05:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


Can you please edit and send me a version of this post? They seem to be editing it all the time for the wrong reasons. Please help me.



Sanaz Shirazi (Misplaced Pages Article, Draft One)

Introduction and early life Sanaz Shirazi (I’ll insert Persian here) is a Persian fashion designer, born in Tehran, Iran. Her childhood was spent between Iran and India, where she attended an English school, while later in Norway and England. Her full last name is Mojir Shirazi. Her Great Grand Father was the Mayor of the town Shiraz through the Qajar Dynasty. He changed the name from Mojir Sultan to Mojir Shirazi , because of his loyalty and love for the town of Shiraz. The family was one of the most influential families in Shiraz Her Grand Father was well known for his contributions and love for Persian poetry, and knowledge in medicine.

The collection and the press Sanaz is one of the designers and co founders of the brand The Sanaz Shirazi Collection, mostly famous for it s timeless fur, cashmere and leather designs.

The Sanaz Shirazi Collection is being sold internationally and is the favorite among Hollywood starlets such as Sienna Miller and Lindsay Lohan among others. The Collection has been featured in international publications such as ELLE, Vogue, Costume, The Times newspaper, The Telegraph, Financial Times and Grazia magazine to name a few, as well as several Television interviews. Sanaz Shirazi has been interviewed live on television by Voice of America and BBC Television regarding her contributions and her line of creations.

Most recently, The Sanaz Shirazi Collection has been doing campaigns with Protecter and Gamble for the Milan Fashion Week.

Education Shirazi attended the BI - Norwegian School of Management as well as the University of Leeds in England, earning a Bachelor’s degree in International Marketing. Additionally, she studied acting and drama at the Central School of Speech and Drama in London.

She works closely with her sister and business partner, Tanaz Shirazi, who is the Managing Director and the Creative Director of the company. Tanaz also studied at the BI – Norwegian School of Management, earning herself a B.A. in Business and Management. She also attended UCLA in Los Angeles, California studying film production at the UCLA Film Department.





Career Inspired as children by their mother’s beautiful vintage fur coat, reflecting 1970’s, both sisters took an instant liking to fashion. Stemming from this dream, they imagined a life and career immersed in the creating of their own style, which would become the uniqueness their collection inhabits today.

Drawing from their inspirations from the poet Hafez, their Persian culture and heritage, Sanaz and Tanaz set off on a journey to create a style that had a vintage, hand-made feel, but maintaining a couture feeling and a high level of quality. Their choice of materials represents history, heritage and tradition, and combining that with their personal touches, feels and styles, the pieces take on a truly unique and one-of-a-kind quality.

Their love of their childhoods in Persia, as well as their upbringing in Northern Europe are inspirations that they both draw on as well. As children, their grandfather’s love of Persian poetry, music and art taught them to appreciate and cherish the beauty of their culture. It is here their relationship with the famous Sufi poet Hafez was birthed, a relationship that would inspire them wholly and endlessly. The images from Hafez are today being used in their logos, and can also be found embroidered on several of their creations.



Goals and the “Sanaz Shirazi Girl” The sister’s philosophy and main agenda is to make wearable, timeless clothing. Their collection and fashion sensibilities revolve around creating a plethora of styles using high quality materials such as Persian lamb, organic suede, natural rabbit fur and cashmere. The sisters make certain they have extensive knowledge about how their fur is sourced. They never use the fur of endangered species in their designs.

The designs can be best described as bohemian yet chic. Styles that can be worn and treasured by both mother and daughter.





Who do they design for, and who, truly, is an SS Girl? The Sanaz Shirazi girl is a natural beauty, down to earth, classy but not pretentious. She is graceful, and has an unaffected beauty. She does not follow the crowd but stands out, because she is confident and comfortable with herself. A Sanaz Shirazi girl is not the type to torture her feet in four-inch heels; she wears and does whatever makes her happy. It is this trait, above all, that makes her even more beautiful. She is well traveled and loves to read books, immerse herself in art, antiques and be inspired by music.

As stated on their own mission statement: “Inspired by unaffected beauty, this is the world of boho chicks, lazy afternoons, old movies, and quite an unpretentious attitude…


Filmography Television interviews http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqYhk-lnpaM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXgpeEqiRHI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q18mB9AHhh8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xHlrRlRycA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAU9qUCctCw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqo2kz6fhRM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLNZv6aCY_c


References

www.sanazshirazi.com

http://www.pelsinform.no/norskedesignere/sanazshirazi/index.html

http://www.onionmag.no/blogg/2007/11/27/intervju-med-designeren-sanaz-for-sanaz-shirazi-collection/


http://www.lola.no/index.asp?id=83386


http://www.must-have.no/sanaz_shirazi.html


http://persianesque.com/2007/10/01/fashion_designer_sanaz_shirazi/

http://www.iranian.com/Khalaj/2007/April/Fashion/index.html

http://www.persianmirror.com/Article_det.cfm?id=1492&getArticleCategory=44&getArticleSubCategory=14


http://www.dagsavisen.no/innenriks/article290339.ece


http://www.theculturalconnect.com/new/2007/10/08/sanaz-shirazi-mideast/


http://www.seher.no/791580/sienna-miller-elsker-norsk-design


http://www.ashena.com/news/166/ARTICLE/1440/2008-02-11.html

www.wella.com The Sanaz Shirazi Collection has been doing campaigns with Protecter and Gamble for the Milan Fashion Week. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qchristina (talkcontribs) 15:35, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Administrator has been misusing his status to launch a personal vendetta

Andrewa (Andrew Alder) has been misusing his status as an admin to launch a personal vendetta against user Viktor van Niekerk. This initially started as a disagreement over a musicological definition, which Andrewa has evidently taken personally. A well-established musicological convention exists that if an instrument has at least one PAIR of strings, this is termed a "course" and not for practical purposes considered two individual strings. (The two strings are tuned to the same note and played as if a single string.) The guitar of the baroque period had 5 pairs of strings and is correctly termed a "baroque guitar" or "five-course guitar" by musicologists. Andrewa took it personally when Viktor van Niekerk repeatedly deleted his attempts to call the five-course baroque guitar a "10-string guitar". As a consequence Andrewa has launched a campaign against Viktor van Niekerk, misusing his status as an administrator to take over the re-writing of the article on "ten-string guitar". (This is a subject that Andrewa has absolutely no experience of, while Viktor van Niekerk is recognized as a world authority on this topic. As a consequence of this manipulation of wikipedia, Viktor van Niekerk has had to create a new website to promote correct, scholarly information about this instrument, as the wikipedia entry has become a joke at the hands of a despot editor who speaks with no authority about the subject - and gets away with it because he is a wikipedia administrator. I beg of someone to look into this, some objective administrators to step in and recognize what is going on. Here is Viktor van Niekerk's website on the topic:

After repeatedly confronting Andrewa (in forums outside wikipedia) about continuing to link from wikipedia to pages that contain PROVEN misinformation, Andrewa has continued to deny that there is anything wrong with the pages he has been linking to. This one, for instance in which the author claims falsely that "there are FOUR missing sympathetic resonances on the six string guitar. If you play a C, Bb, Ab, and Gb on the first string E, there will be less sustain from these notes than the others because there are no sympathetic resonant strings." Andrewa has elsewhere on the internet repeatedly denied that there is anything false about these statements, even though we have PROVEN that Narciso Yepes (the inventor of the instrument) always verifiably stated EIGHT (not four) missing resonances on the 6-string guitar, and that (aside from C, Bb, Ab, and Gb) also G, F, Eb and Db have no resonance. The above statement that Andrewa defends as correct, CLEARLY logically and mathematically claims that the resonances of G, F, Eb and Db, along with D, E, A and B must be present. (There are 12 notes in western music. If four are claimed to be missing, then eight are logically present.) Andrewa knows this, can count, and is an English-speaker. I can only conclude that he is misusing his status as an administrator to get his way in what is nothing more than a personal grudge. Clearly we cannot have administrators on wikipedia upholding proven misinformation over historical and scientific facts.

PLEASE, I beg of you, would some objective administrators please look at www.tenstringguitar.info and at www.myspace.com/tenstringguitar and the archives of the wikipedia article on "ten-string guitar". What is happening here is not just. I call for Andrewa's admin rights to be revoked.

Category:
Misplaced Pages:Editor assistance/Requests Add topic