User talk:Baseball Bugs/Archive029/Snapshot081009

< User talk:Baseball Bugs | Archive029

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Ark-Hives

In re: comments on my talk page

I think you make an interesting point, and when I have time in the next few days I'll try to find some sources from Native American leaders with their opinions on the issue. Also, I never suspected you had a bias, it became clear to me later that you were mainly concerned about the state of that article, and that's something I respect. For what it's worth, I do agree with many of your points about using Native American imagery and I have some reservations about the Indians' continued usuage of Chief Wahoo on their jerseys. Anyway, I do appreciate your help on this. Cumulus Clouds 05:23, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Church of baseball

So am I correct in guessing that you believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, and that there should be a constitutional amendment outlawing astroturf and the designated hitter? Durova 21:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm in favor of the DH. :) Baseball Bugs 22:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh horror! Say it ain't so... —Wknight94 (talk) 23:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

More?

Sorry for cross-threading. What do you think of these?

Baseball History (talk · contribs)
Negro League Committee (talk · contribs)
Robin Hawkins (talk · contribs)

I see 149.4.108.66 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 207.159.196.253 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) - usual Liebman IPs - mixed in with their edits. I was about to blast all three and soft-block the two IPs but wanted a second pair of eyes. At the very least, they're socks of each other. —Wknight94 (talk) 00:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

All blocked and all reverted. What a mess. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Help pricing

I need help pricing a baseballcard. Can you help me? -Tobi4242 01:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I plead the Sergeant Schultz defense. Baseball Bugs 01:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

???-Tobi4242 01:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

On the subject of baseball card prices, "I know nothing! Nothing!" Baseball Bugs 01:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Your user page

Hi. I just noticed you have a picture of bugs bunny on your user page. It's a fine picture, but it's certainly copyrighted and as such seems to violate WP:NFCC#8, which restricts non-free images to the main space. Definitely not user space. Sorry to bring this up but you're party to an arbcom case where people are muckraking, mudslinging, and bringing up things to use against people - you don't want anyone to accuse you of violating image policy. Maybe a nice free image of a rabbit? Wikidemo 17:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

BTW, if you're game, I've done some work on a baseball-related article that could use some major help, the 1989 World Series. The description of what happened in the game is very poor, just a series of random bullet points that doesn't tell the story. I would, but I don't know enough about baseball. Plus another series of bullet points about the earthquake. Wikidemo 17:39, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually it could very well be public domain if it was produced as a public service for the United States government during World War II, which seems to be the case. Durova 18:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

He was just pestered about this a few days ago. Click on the image - it's on Commons! With a nice description of why. Odd that two people have made the same oversight in one week. —Wknight94 (talk) 18:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the update and my bad for not checking the image file link. I'm dubious that this is a free image because the character is obviously copyrighted. Failing to obtain a copyright for the film does not release into the public domain previously copyrighted elements within the film (i.e. the characters). There's some case law on this, I think. This very issue has been discussed at some length over at WP:NONFREE. I don't know if we reached any resolution. But at least he has a claim that it's non-free, and I'm in no mood to pursue this. Wikidemo 19:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Even if you did, you'd have to go to Commons. I'd be surprised if no discussion has taken place there since they are quite strict about being 100% free and this undoubtedly raised some eyebrows. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I've posted it strictly based on the information at Commons claiming it's public domain. Baseball Bugs 20:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Cinemaniac

What's up, Baseball Bugs/Archive029!! You might not remember me, but at the beginning of the year I took part in a short-lived yet relevatory discussion with you, User:Brian, and User:WAVY 10, over Daffy Duck; that discussion, still available on that article's talk page, involved his voice origins and his recent resurgence. Towards the end of that discussion Brian advised that I sign up for an actual account, and I promised both of you that, if it ever came to be, I would let you know about it. Well---that day finally came. You can now refer to me officially as, not JS, but as User:Cinemaniac. ---Cinemaniac 04:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

That was awhile ago. Refresh my memory. :) Baseball Bugs 06:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Soitenly! Go to Talk:Daffy Duck and look under About the lisp and Happy Birthday, Daffy!. Here's the reason that debate started: You jokingly discarded Daffy's middle name as Dumas, and I later came out and apologized for editing that into the The Scarlet Pumpernickel page; during that apology, I also raised questions over whether or not Leon Schlesinger was the true inspiration for Daffy Duck's lisp. You then quickly apologized for calling me an ignoramus and then elaborated on your thoughts about Daffy's nonexistent middle name and the Chuck Jones/Bob Clampett feud. In a series of ongoing postings we both offered up vindication for both of our arguments and points...until User:BrianSmithson dropped by and argued for both stories about Daffy Duck's lisp origins to be included. USER:WAVY 10 also passed by and commented positively on my short mini-essay about Daffy Duck's resurgence. With the dispute about who originated Daffy Duck's lisp all but over, we all parted ways. Shortly afterward, however, you yourself responded to one of my postings on the talkpage over the cut the cards gag in the Marx Brothers film Horse Feathers. More recently (last month, in fact, you and I and another user had a discussion on Talk:Bugs Bunny over some vandalism concerning Bugs Bunny's "death". Any of that ring a bell? :D --- Cinemaniac 17:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Aha! Now it's coming back to me. For the record, the term I used was "ignoranimous", which is Bugsy's ironically ignorant way of calling someone else ignorant. :) And I also recall the alleged "death" of Bugs Bunny, which is a funny concept in that you can't kill something that's not actually alive. Alrighty then, may your cinemania continue. :) Baseball Bugs 17:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. --Cinemaniac 18:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

By the way, there's one loose end of our old Daffy Duck discussion that needs to be tied up. In that old debate, you brought up the possibility that Leon Schlesinger had only a slight lisp that was wildly exxaggerated by the animatorss for use by Daffy Duck. Well, I just recently re-watched Friz Freleng's 1940 animation/live-action hybrid short, You Ought To Be in Pictures---and it appears that you are right. Schlesinger doesn't have much of a lisp, if any at all, when he talks to Porky. I've also seen some old Christmas gag reels from the Termite Terrace crew that feature the boss, and there still doesn't seem tobe much of a speech impediment in his voice. Just thought I'd let ya know. -- Cinemaniac 21:40, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I recall reading somewhere that Blanc had overdubbed Schlesinger's voice in You Ought to be in Pictures, but after seeing it, I wasn't convinced. And if it's not much in evidence in the gag reels, where presumably it was actually him (though maybe not), then they probably just exaggerated it. Something else to keep in mind, that if I'm recalling correctly, might be the missing piece of that puzzle: In Daffy's debut in Daffy Duck and Egghead, Daffy only has a slight lisp, if I'm remembering right, and if so, then perhaps his original voice was not so far from Schlesinger's, and it just grew in exaggeration over time. In fact, in thinking more about it, that's probably the case. I don't think Daffy's slobbering was as strong in My Favorite Duck, for example, as it was in his later work. The WB cartoonists also caricatured Friz Freleng as their inspiration for Yosemite Sam, but Friz was not nearly (1) that short or (2) possessing that much facial hair. Don't know about the voice, but I expect that was a wild exaggeration also. Ya see, what artists do is take an "inspiration piece" and run with it, making it something separate and unique. As an out-of-left-field example, the Buddy Holly song "Peggy Sue" was inspired by a girl that a band member was dating, but from the artistic standpoint the song isn't really about that Peggy Sue, it's about anyone who can relate to the situation in the song. One clue to that is the subtlety of the line "You recall a girl that's been in nearly every song". "That girl" is anyone that anyone who hears the song might relate to. And that "universality" is what makes it art. (Shazam, my high school training is coming back to me.) Baseball Bugs 22:05, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Jerry Beck, a recognized authority in animation history, has confirmed in print and in an audio commentary for the Looney Tunes Golden Collection: Volume 2, that Leon Schlesinger's real voice was, in fact, utilized for the aforementioned cartoon. -- Cinemaniac 19:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll check out the cartoon when I get the chance. Baseball Bugs 22:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The lisp is only in evidence during his "The Merry-Go-Round Broke Down" song. Baseball Bugs 01:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh--do you mean The Merry-Go-Round Broke Down song from Daffy Duck and Egghead? Yes, that's one of the only times I hear Daffy (I assume we're talking about Daffy!) lisp in his first few years. -- Cinemaniac 13:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

That's the one. And it's obviously drawn in a different style and presumably recorded at a different time than the soundtrack for the rest of the cartoon. Either way, it's a zany cartoon - Daffy is a total anarchist in that one. Baseball Bugs 13:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Tom Lehrer

My beliefs on the matter are irrelevant. The content you keep putting into the article on Tom Lehrer are not relevant to the article and adds nothing, which is why I keep undoing your edits. TechBear 19:09, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe you. Baseball Bugs 00:57, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Note to self: Further discussion was on that talk page, and it's a no-win, so it's over-and-out now. Baseball Bugs 22:06, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Church of Baseball names

I think you should add Saint to the beggining to some of the names on your Church of Baseball section.--Tascha96 09:25 (UTC), 29 October 2007

Good idea. St. Louis, St. Paul, etc. Baseball Bugs 01:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I've always liked your title "Church of Baseball", considering that the premier book on ballparks and their histories is titled Green Cathedrals. It all just works for me. -- Couillaud 16:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Our Josh Gibson discussion

Apologies in advance, but I just don't have the stomach to waste my time with YoSoyGuapo on this particular topic, as it's just not worth the time. I filed a complaint against him on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, and you can add a comment if you'd like. If it turns out that Misplaced Pages doesn't have the cojones to deal forcefully with this kind of trolling, I don't think I'll stick around.

I've been adding statistical lines to Negro Leaguers on Baseball Reference Bullpen ({ http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Dobie_Moore } for example), using the template that BRMo originally provided for Josh Gibson, and will eventually put in all the current Hall of Famers (based on Hogan's book) and the nominees (from SABR's and the Hall's information provided to the press during the voting). I've put in Gibson, Moore, Newt Allen, Cristobal Torriente, and Buck O'Neil so far. You might want to take a look. The best thing is that YoSoyGuapo can't mess with that, as his efforts at editing Gibson (same time of the edit war here) on that site was not well-received, and he's viewed there as less than one step up from Liebman.

--Couillaud 16:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Aftermath?

Please Explain what a "wikibreak" is. Does this simply mean that YSG is going into lurking mode and that he will return in his full glory to wreak further havoc in another month or two? All we gain is a brief break from his actions is that's true. I want some teeth put into this. Do you think there will be real action on this one, or has YSG simply made a stategic retreat? I'm not sure I believe him anyway, as many untruths as he told in a short time during this fight.

I used to deal with a murderer (who killed my eldest goddaughter) over the last few years (before and just after his trial and conviction), and one of the things I've noticed about him is his shifting rationales for why things happened, and how he is really an misunderstood altruistic guy, and how he has been the victim of the most amazing coincidences and most evil conspiracies. Nothing is ever his fault. Everything happens to him, and despite his best efforts to be good. I'm beginning to see parallels with other people I have to deal with (no names here).

The original troll who started the war on "King's Daughters" came back tonight, and I put in a note to WKnight94 to remind him of his original threat to block the entire range if the guy started trolling again, but it may have gotten lost in the other excitement, so I reminded him.

You want to know the funniest thing about YSG's accusation that my use of cojones was meant to reflect badly on his hispanic heritage? The name "Couillaud" (a surname of one of my Québecois ancestors) literally translates as "one with large testicles". Coincidence? I think not :-).

I will be out of town tomorrow (believe it or not, I'm going to tour a maximum security prison tomorrow, by sheer coincidence the one where my goddaughter's killer resides) and will not be able to do much editing until next week, but I'd really like to completely revise the Gibson article, with one of the first major changes being the incorporation of BRMo's table of Gibson's career stats. We can talk about the fact that the numbers do not reflect the true achievements of the man, but they are the most accurate and the best record of what he did against major-league quality competition. It can be pointed out that he is anecdotally credited with x number of home runs in 19-whatever, with the obvious caveat that it is unknowable what level of competition he faced in those games, though it is known that he did face a large number of amateur and semi-pro pitching. It MIGHT be something to be proud of.

-- Couillaud 04:08, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I made bail after my trip. :-) It is a seriously sobering experience to see the inside of a prison like that and realize that the men inside are spending the rest of their lives there (I was told the average stay was 30 years). The visit was educational but otherwise (thankfully) uneventful, and I'll be working most of the next week or two on a couple personal programming projects, and my actual job is nearing year-end work, so my time for Misplaced Pages may be more limited anyway for the remainder of 2007.

My remarks about comparing a cold-blooded killer to an internet troll was not meant to be in the way of actions or motivation, but in the way that both (and many others) can rationalize any actions they take, and can mentally shift blame to anyone but themselves. I have seen more people than I care to count do rude, dishonest, and/or deliberately hurtful things, and then flatly deny that they did so, simply rationalizing that we either misunderstood their actions or their intentions. My experience with seeing it in real life in such an extreme manner simply makes me unfortunately much less tolerant of such rationalizations.

I will work on the info box on Gibson, and try to treat it as a template for Negro Leaguers in general. There is a lot of information we don't have on most Negro Leaguers, so we may have to work out a consensus on what information should be commonly presented, such as full name, birth/death data, seasons range and teams played for, rookie and final seasons, lifetime BA and HR (or W-L) as best known, HoF election year (if applicable); and anything else that seems appropriate.

One of the caveats that should specifically apply to Gibson's statistics is that Negro League players of the mid '30s through the end of segregated leagues played fewer official games per season than did their counterparts in the 20s and early 30s, and that a higher percentage of those games never made it into box scores. According to Larry Lester, co-chair of SABR-NLC, Gibson may have lost as many as 40 Negro League HR in games that were reported but never produced a box score. While we are pretty sure there were an additional 40 HR, we don't know how many at bats it took, how many total hits (not to mention other extra-base hits) were there as well. His lifetime BA might raise a couple of points, or drop that many. With the current state of research, we don't know. What we DO know is that the number will never be as high as "nearly 800"; we're just not missing THAT may games.

All the same, we should find a way to mention that Gibson suffers unfairly in comparison to Oscar Charleston and Turkey Stearnes in terms of lifetime stats for those two reasons.

-- Couillaud 19:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Shenanigans?

You'd be more familiar with these than I... are any of the edits by 70.113.73.42 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) factual? My gut says no... —Wknight94 (talk) 03:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

No, not Liebman. Just general lies. But I thought maybe you'd have sources that could prove one way or the other. Only one of the edits has been reverted so far but I think the rest need to be as well. —Wknight94 (talk) 04:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Josh Gibson

There is no source that really accounts for Gibson's non-league record. James Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues is a source for many of the numbers that one sees, but he doesn't tell us where he obtained his numbers. And there is no source that provides data for non-league games in any systematic manner. BRMo 05:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Riley gets his numbers from a variety of different sources, but almost never lists the source. His book is known to contain conflicting data, as if gathered from conflicting sources without reconciling the differences. He is more an author than a researcher in this regard, as he has not done as much original research as his book might seem to reflect.

-- Couillaud 19:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

In Remembrance...

--nat 02:08, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Charlie Brown

Thanks for the heads up. The song was written by Lieber and Stoller in 1959, well before Peanuts reached its zenith of popularity and cultural spread. As you say, the characters don't really match up. "Charley Brown" in the song is an urban high-school cut-up, more in the tradition of "Yakkity-Yak". The connection to the comic strip is probably entirely coincidental, unless L&S lifted the name from there. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 21:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Alkivar closed

The above arbitration case has closed. "For showing consistently poor judgment in performing administrative actions", Alkivar is desysopped. He may apply to the committee to have his adminship reinstated, but may not apply at Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship. Burntsauce is banned as a meat-puppet of banned user JB196. For the Arbitration Committee, Picaroon (t) 01:17, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Hallelujah. Thank you! Baseball Bugs 03:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Trivia Tag "Rule" Reply

Throught all of Misplaced Pages, just about any and every article that has a trivia section has a tag that says trivia is discouraged (WP:TRIV explains about Trivia). I mentioned to the user that took off a tag that had been placed since June that I didnt want to see him take off tags that are supposed to be there, for fear if the user is caught by someone with a little power, he could get in more trouble. Whammies Were Here 12:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

True, but as I had said, the user had taken off a trivia tag, so that was the real main issue. Whammies Were Here 21:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the guy's past history (and what just recently happened), it wasnt no one time thing. I see he hit another page taking off the tag, and an admin got him. I am not a fan of the trivia tag that they put in trivia sections, but I just go along with what has been the way things have gone. And thanks. I have been meaning to get to fixing that trivia section up anyway to incorporate the info into the article. but got either sidetracked, or just completly forgot about it. Whammies Were Here 11:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

clearing help

Thanks. Did not know how to do that. Whammies Were Here 03:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. Hopefully that clears it up. Baseball Bugs 03:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The Pledge

Perhaps you can answer my question on Talk:Pledge of Allegiance, since I see you have been active on the national anthem page. —Scouter Sig 23:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Marx redux

I noticed the quote box on your userpage and one of my favorite Groucho quotes sprung to mind: "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."--Father Goose (talk) 07:49, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The Onion

Actually, you are wrong about the interviews we do over at Wikinews, and if you look around on a multitude of pages you will see that our interviews are, indeed, cited. Sorry that the people have never heard that story about the student union, and that it's not true. But the interview will be up on Wikinews tomorrow. It's with the same folks whose photos you see I took on The Onion page: The President and the Editorial Manager. --David Shankbone 05:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

We can't do OR on Misplaced Pages, but on Wikinews OR is encouraged; it's meant to be a news and research website. The OR policy can often be misconstrued because many of us--myself included--tend to look at everything through a Misplaced Pages lens. So, if Misplaced Pages was the source of the interview, it would be a problem. Where would we put it? We couldn't create an article around one interview, which would fail WP:N. Wikinews has an accreditation system and its reporters can conduct OR, which can often help to flesh out some areas on pages--e.g. the history of The Onion's name--where there are problems by talking directly to the people involved with the subject of the article. But it's a Wikinews function as a sister project, to compliment Misplaced Pages. You should consider doing some work over at Wikinews. --David Shankbone 16:15, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It was probably just a campus rumor that spread. I should have the interview published in the next few hours. I'll post a link to it here. --David Shankbone 16:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting theory, but not pertinent to the page since we go by WP:V:

Sean: People always ask questions about where the name The Onion came from, and when I recently asked Tim Keck, who was one of the founders, he told me the name—I’ve never heard this story about ‘see you at the un-yun’—he said it was literally that his Uncle said he should call it The Onion when he saw him and Chris Johnson eating an onion sandwich. They had literally just cut up the onion and put it on bread.

Chet: Yeah, their food budget when they started this publication was so low they were down to white bread and onions.

--David Shankbone 17:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to take their word over someone else's musing. --David Shankbone 17:47, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not our role to question them, they have no reason to lie, and they have more veracity than some uncited source who thinks it has something to do with a student union (as if that makes sense, but again, there's no reason to lie). Regardless, all this discussion about whether they tell the truth is irrelevant to our policies and guidelines. --David Shankbone 18:24, 25 November 2007 (UTC)