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Death

With a heavy heart, we share the news of Dr. John McDougall’s passing. A visionary physician and author, beloved husband, father, grandfather, brother, mentor and friend, Dr. McDougall died peacefully at his home on Saturday, June 22nd, at the age of 77. Kezzz'd (talk) 17:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Died at 77 and was ill was a very long time. It's interesting because a lot of his followers were using this talk-page inappropriately claiming he was going to live to a very old age. We need good WP:RS for his death date. I will look around. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:58, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Will this do? Bon courage (talk) 06:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Plant-based News is a weak source, it is usually removed from Misplaced Pages but is probably acceptable to use for a death notice or obituary, it's probably worth waiting until they publish better sources on his death. That will probably happen in the next week. Psychologist Guy (talk) 10:51, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
“ It's interesting because a lot of his followers were using this talk-page inappropriately claiming he was going to live to a very old age.”
Surely you must have links to this? 173.49.59.45 (talk) 08:42, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
It's in the archive of this talk-page somewhere if you click on the archives. I have discussed the topic many times with his followers over the years. I called it correctly about a year ago, I knew he was very unwell and wasn't going to make it to old age. Of course his die-hard followers are now all over the Reddit plant-based diet sub claiming he only died at 77 because he ate meat as a teenager. They always have an excuse. The fact that he ate some meat as a teenager has nothing to do with the fact he died at aged 77. It's about long-time lifestyle changes that impact longevity, not things you did briefly for a few years as a teenager. There is also the fact that there are many factors associated with longevity but online today all people want to talk about is diet. Psychologist Guy (talk) 10:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
So… no link? 173.49.59.45 (talk) 16:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
He had a massive stroke when he was 19 or 20. A bit more than doing something “briefly”. How would you have been privy to his health records? 172.222.56.202 (talk) 03:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
Dr. McDougall is dead and in the ground, but yet this poorly presented, biased article lives on, completely unchanged despite abundant constructive criticism over the years. This is an example of the worst of Misplaced Pages. Jack.B.2007 (talk) Jack.B.2007 (talk) 16:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Nobody's produced any evidence of a problem. This guy promoted a dodgy diet, and got called out for it in reliable sources. Misplaced Pages reflects that. Bon courage (talk) 19:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
This page is talked about on the 'Chef AJ Live' show. She mentioned how great this article is by name on her July 1, 2024, show, "In Loving Memory of Dr. John McDougall", at 38 minutes in: "Misplaced Pages did a horrible job..." I agree, although I might not use the word horrible. Jack.B.2007 (talk) 03:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
And this is relevant how? This is WP:NOTAFORUM and dodgy Youtube diet channels are irrelevant to Misplaced Pages (except maybe when mentioned by reliable sources). Bon courage (talk) 03:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Subjective not objective

It looks to me like whoever wrote the second paragraph is a staunch meat lover, and anti plant-based eating. I would like to see some edits, such as...

It has been categorized by some as a low-fat fad diet. Other nutrition experts consider it to be an extremely healthy diet. The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks. As with any low-fat high-fibre plant-based diet, it may lead to weight loss, lowering of cholesterol, and many other health benefits that have been proven by science. Some people who are accustomed to eating animal based products and high-fat, high-sugar or highly processed foods in general may find it a difficult diet to follow, and experience some physical discomfort until their body adjusts. 2604:3D08:447B:1900:4559:D95:A488:BAB9 (talk) 22:30, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Not correct. He was wrong about pretty much everything and the science doesn't support his claims. We have multiple WP:RS noting that his fad diet had no good evidence to support it. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:31, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Agreed. This is definitely a subjective article. I wish more effort was put into briefly explaining the tenants of the diet and less effort put into citing multiple criticisms. I'm neither for nor against this diet, but I don't care for the bias here. That is not why I sought out information on Dr. McDougall. 173.47.45.49 (talk) 00:02, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Tenants? Bon courage (talk) 04:56, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Agreed, this is a completely subjective review- from fad diet to the entire last paragraph. There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work. Moreover, Misplaced Pages shouldn’t represent such bias. 72.73.114.211 (talk) 10:13, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
"There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work" ← citation needed! Bon courage (talk) 12:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
"There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work"...Here are five published studies that back John McDougall's 50+ years of treating and curing chronic disease. I could find many, many, more if necessary to help improve the accuracy of this page. Annie354 (talk) 18:41, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Those are all unreliable primary sources, WP:MEDRS would be needed for such claims. Bon courage (talk) 18:51, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:MEDRS States that ideal sources for biomedical material include reputable medical journals. NIHis undisputedly reputable which accounts for 4/5 of these sources. The 5th is published on the American Heart Association’s website. All 5 are well within reliable source guidelines. 2600:6C67:517F:4674:8064:1807:1F02:12EA (talk) 19:11, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
There is no clinical evidence that McDougall's diet (or any diet for that matter) has "cured" chronic diseases. The sources listed make no such claims so I doubt Annie354 has read any of them. Two of the sources Annie354 listed are about complete proteins and protein combining. How is this empirical evidence for curing chronic diseases? The other sources are short-term RCTs that do not mention any significant results, merely improvements in BMI. Again, no evidence any chronic disease has been cured on the McDougall diet. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:20, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
See WP:MEDFAQ#PUBMEDRIGHT Bon courage (talk) 19:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Curing chronic disease was not the matter in need of citing. The sources listed were in reference to: "There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work" ← citation needed! Bon courage (talk) 12:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC) Annie354 (talk) 02:51, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
You are moving goal posts and doubling down on your claim. You said there is 50+ years of evidence of McDougall curing chronic disease. You haven't cited a single reliable source for this claim. You now claim to have shown empirical evidence that validates his work but you haven't. You have cited some papers he co-wrote himself. Show us 4 or 5 meta-analyses or systematic review validating his work. There isn't any because his diet has no clinical evidence to support it. Citing his own papers is not evidence. Where is the independent replication? In a nutshell you have not provided any evidence. We have been at this since 2020. Every few months a new user comes to this talk-page and claims there is evidence for the McDougall diet but no reliable medical sources are ever given. Big talk, empty claims. Psychologist Guy (talk) 04:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2024

asked and answered. Bon courage (talk) 14:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

"It has been categorized as a low-fat fad diet. The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks. As with any restrictive low-fat diet, it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation."

1. Change "fad" to "starch-based".

2. Remove "processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks". End sentence after "cooking oils".

3. Remove sentence "As with any restrictive low-fat diet , it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation." Replace above sentence with, "His dietary recommendations have been used to reverse and prevent chronic illnesses for over 50 years". Taterslayer (talk) 22:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The text would appear to be supported by the cited sources. PianoDan (talk) 22:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Where’s the source that it’s a fad diet?
also, it’s not appropriate to add “ As with any restrictive low-fat diet , it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation” in a Misplaced Pages page. This isn’t a school of learning. Absolutely inappropriate. It needs removed. 47.215.74.175 (talk) 14:27, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Remove It has been categorized as a low-fat fad diet. The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks. As with any restrictive low-fat diet, it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation.


REASONS: 2013 Wardlaw's Nutrition textbook is out of date. The current 2024 Wardlaw's Contemporary Nutrition: A Functional Approach, 7th edition does NOT discuss or criticize the McDougall Program

Remove LAST PARAGRAPHS In 1992, nutritionist Kurt Butler described McDougall's ideas as "vegetarian extremism" and McDougall as "Americas most influential vegan zealot" who has taken the low-fat vegetarian diet to extremes. He also suggested that McDougall's diet may increase the risk of calcium and iron deficiency and is not safe for children.

Reviewing McDougall's book The McDougall Program for Maximum Weight Loss, nutritionist Fredrick J. Stare and epidemiologist Elizabeth Whelan criticized its restrictive regime and "poor advice", concluding that the diet's concepts were "extreme and out of keeping with nutritional reality". The authors state that failure to consume dairy products creates a risk for osteoporosis, and that if animal products cannot be replaced with peanut butter and soybean foods, vegans may not obtain enough protein. Reviewing The McDougall Program: 12 Days to Dynamic Health, doctor Harriet Hall wrote that the book is filled with anecdotes and questionable statements, and that it makes many claims which are not supported by science. Hall concluded that "Some of McDougall’s recommendations are in line with mainstream advice, but there is reason to fear that strict adherence to his whole Program might result in nutritional deficits that could do more harm than good."

McDougall's diet was studied as a potential treatment for relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis, but showed no changes in brain MRI outcomes, MS relapses or disability.


REASON out of date negative criticisms of a vegan diet not in line with current AMA recommendations. The anti-vegan claims written are unsubstantiated and already mentioned in other places in this article. WFPB Vegan (talk) 21:18, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Geardona (talk to me?) 23:53, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Remove (Repeat Request or change wording to accurately reflect Wardlaw's 2013 nutrition textbook categorized the McDougall program as a fad diet, but the current 2024 Wardlaw's nutrition book removed the "fad" designation.) It has been categorized as a low-fat fad diet. The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks. As with any restrictive low-fat diet, it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation.


REASONS: 2013 Wardlaw's Nutrition textbook is out of date. The current 2024 Wardlaw's Contemporary Nutrition: A Functional Approach, 7th edition does NOT discuss or criticize the McDougall Program — Preceding unsigned comment added by WFPB Vegan (talkcontribs) 11:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Removal of word "fad" diet from old textbook. Current textbook does not negatively describe the McDougall program

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
American physician and author (1947–2024) This article is about the American physician and author. For other people with the name, see John McDougall (disambiguation).

John A. McDougall
Born(1947-05-17)May 17, 1947
Detroit, Michigan, U.S.
DiedJune 22, 2024(2024-06-22) (aged 77)
EducationMichigan State University College of Human Medicine (M.D.)
Occupations
  • Physician
  • author
Known forAdvocacy of the "McDougall Plan", a low-fat fad diet based on starchy foods and vegetables
Notable work
  • The McDougall Plan (1983)
  • The Starch Solution (2012)
Websitewww.drmcdougall.com

John A. McDougall (May 17, 1947 – June 22, 2024) was an American physician and author. He wrote a number of diet books advocating the consumption of a low-fat vegan diet based on starchy foods and vegetables.

His eponymous diet, called The McDougall Plan was a New York Times bestseller. The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks.

 Not done: Forget the edition. You've got the wrong title. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Background

McDougall was a graduate of Michigan State University's College of Human Medicine. He performed his internship at The Queen's Medical Center in Honolulu, Hawaii, in 1972 and his medical residency at the University of Hawaiʻi. McDougall contributed to the Vegetarian Times magazine and appeared on television talk shows.

McDougall was also a member of the advisory board of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM). In 2016, he was one of four named plaintiffs in a lawsuit by the PCRM alleging improper influence by the egg industry on establishing cholesterol recommendations in the US. The lawsuit was dismissed in 2016.

McDougall died on June 22, 2024, at the age of 77.

Diet programs and products

In 2002, McDougall began the McDougall Program at the Flamingo Resort in Santa Rosa, California. The program is a 10-day residential treatment program which features a low-fat, starch-based, vegan diet.

The McDougall diet is a low-fat starch-based diet that is high in fiber and contains no cholesterol. The diet is based on a variety of starches such as rice, potatoes, corn, breads, pasta, and fresh or frozen fruits and vegetables. For example, a meal might be made of a baked potato with steamed broccoli, or steamed brown rice with steamed vegetables, perhaps with a piece of fruit for dessert.

McDougall was the co-founder of the now Woodland-based Dr. McDougall's Right Foods Inc., which produces dried and packaged soups, manufactured for it by the SF Spice Co.

McDougall promoted his diet as an alternative treatment for a number of chronic disorders, including arthritis, atherosclerosis, cancer, diabetes, hypertension and osteoporosis.

Reception

His book The McDougall Plan was on New York Times paperback "Advice, How-to, and Miscellaneous" bestseller list. The plan is classified as a low-fat fad diet in Wardlaw's Perspectives in Nutrition.

McDougall has been criticized for making unsubstantiated health claims. Some of McDougall's dietary recommendations are in line with mainstream nutritional advice, such as an emphasis on fruits, vegetables and whole grains, but others are considered extreme and are not supported by evidence. McDougall's diet plan has been called a low-fat fad diet that may lead to boredom with limited food choices, and feelings of deprivation because of exclusion of favorite foods. The high fiber content can cause flatulence and possibly interfere with mineral absorption.

The McDougall diet is very low-fat, high-carbohydrate and vegan. Sodium intake is restricted and no animal products or added oils are permitted. A review noted that "iron, zinc, vitamin B12, vitamin D, calcium, and omega-3 are potential nutritional deficiencies from following such a strict diet", but also noted that one study had reported "improvements in predictors for cardiovascular and metabolic disease" in people using the diet, and that "improvements in low density lipoproteins cholesterol (LDL-C), total cholesterol, insulin, BMI, and fatigue severity scale scores were observed" in people using the diet.

In 1992, nutritionist Kurt Butler described McDougall's ideas as "vegetarian extremism" and McDougall as "Americas most influential vegan zealot" who has taken the low-fat vegetarian diet to extremes. He also suggested that McDougall's diet may increase the risk of calcium and iron deficiency and is not safe for children.

Reviewing McDougall's book The McDougall Program for Maximum Weight Loss, nutritionist Fredrick J. Stare and epidemiologist Elizabeth Whelan criticized its restrictive regime and "poor advice", concluding that the diet's concepts were "extreme and out of keeping with nutritional reality". The authors state that failure to consume dairy products creates a risk for osteoporosis, and that if animal products cannot be replaced with peanut butter and soybean foods, vegans may not obtain enough protein. Reviewing The McDougall Program: 12 Days to Dynamic Health, doctor Harriet Hall wrote that the book is filled with anecdotes and questionable statements, and that it makes many claims which are not supported by science. Hall concluded that "Some of McDougall’s recommendations are in line with mainstream advice, but there is reason to fear that strict adherence to his whole Program might result in nutritional deficits that could do more harm than good."

McDougall's diet was studied as a potential treatment for relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis, but showed no changes in brain MRI outcomes, MS relapses or disability.

Bibliography

McDougall wrote several books, with his wife Mary contributing recipes, which had sold more than 1.5 million copies as of 2008.

Books

References

  1. "Paperback Best Sellers". The New York Times. May 26, 1985. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved February 19, 2022.
  2. ^ Byrd-Bredbenner, Carol; Moe, Gaile; Beshgetoor, Donna; Berning, Jacqueline. (2013). Wardlaw's Perspectives in Nutrition, Ninth Edition. McGraw-Hill. pages 338-339, §10.7, Table 10-7. ISBN 978-0-07-352272-2
  3. ^ Stone, Gene, ed. (June 28, 2011). Forks over knives: the plant-based way to health. Workman Publishing. pp. 52–3. ISBN 9781615191468.
  4. ^ Butler, Kurt. (1992). A Consumer's Guide to "Alternative Medicine": A Close Look at Homeopathy, Acupuncture, Faith-healing, and Other Unconventional Treatments. Prometheus Books. pp. 24-27. ISBN 0-87975-733-7
  5. "Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine". Activist Facts. Center for Organizational Research and Education. January 8, 2013.
  6. Aslam, Sunny (November 28, 2001). "Vegetarian diet on solid ground, experts say". USA Today.
  7. Tayna, Lewis. "A lawsuit claims government guidelines on cholesterol were tainted by the egg industry". Business Insider. Retrieved September 13, 2016.
  8. "The Physicians Committee sues USDA and DHHS, exposing industry corruption in dietary guidelines decision on cholesterol" (Press release). Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. January 6, 2016.
  9. "Federal Court Dismisses Physicians Committee Lawsuit Over Industry Influence on Food Policy" (Press release). Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. October 14, 2016. Retrieved February 19, 2022.
  10. Foreman, Polly (June 25, 2024). "Renowned Plant-Based Physician Dr John McDougall Dies Aged 77". Plant Based News. Retrieved June 26, 2024.
  11. ^ Asbell, Robin. "Practicing What He Preaches". Better Homes and Gardens. Archived from the original on June 17, 2008.
  12. ^ Lubkin, Ilene Morof. (1998). Chronic Illness: Impact and Interventions. Jones and Bartlett. page 415
  13. ^ Hall, Harriet. (2020). "The McDougall Diet". Science-Based Medicine. Retrieved January 28, 2021.
  14. "Mary's Mini-McDougall Diet®". Dr. McDougall. Retrieved February 19, 2022. Simple Eating-out Suggestions: A baked potato or sweet potato with steamed vegetables like broccoli (steakhouse)...Steamed rice and vegetables (Chinese)
  15. "Executive profile John A. McDougall". Bloomberg. Archived from the original on November 29, 2016. Retrieved July 27, 2017.
  16. Anderson, Mark (December 10, 2014). "Bay Area food company to move operations to Woodland". Sacramento Business Journal. Retrieved September 13, 2016.
  17. "PAPERBACK BEST SELLERS". The New York Times. May 26, 1985. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved February 19, 2022.
  18. ^ Langley MR, Triplet EM, Scarisbrick IA (July 2020). "Dietary influence on central nervous system myelin production, injury, and regeneration". Biochim Biophys Acta Mol Basis Dis. 1866 (7): 165779. doi:10.1016/j.bbadis.2020.165779. PMID 32224154.
  19. Stare, Fredrick J.; Whelan, Elizabeth (1998). "Book review:The McDougall Program for Maximum Weight Loss by John A. McDougall M.D.". Fad-Free Nutrition. Hunter House. pp. 202–203. ISBN 9780897932363.
  20. Katz Sand I (September 2018). "The Role of Diet in Multiple Sclerosis: Mechanistic Connections and Current Evidence". Curr Nutr Rep. 7 (3): 150–160. doi:10.1007/s13668-018-0236-z. PMC 6132382. PMID 30117071.
  21. Peterson, Diane (May 31, 2012). "John McDougall a true believer". The Press Democrat.

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WFPB Vegan (talk) 11:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

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