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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 24.81.87.152 (talk) at 06:38, 9 March 2007 (→Ghani's book). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Reza Shah was a good article, but it was removed from the list as it no longer met the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. Review: March 28, 2007.

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Exile in South Africa

Please had more to this section. There is some mention in the internet Reza Shah helped establish the apartheid system there.

Relations with Germany

The guy was an unspeakable fascist and a clear Nazi sympathizer. To say he dispised the Nazis is just naive. I've added NPOV tag to the corresponding section. --Sennaista 20:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Illiterate?

I have heard it said that Reza Pahlavi was illiterate. Is this true? It is not mentioned in the article.

No, this is not true. His handwriting is still available. He certainly did not have a very advanced education, however. Few Iranians had in those times anyway.

De-tribalizing of Iran

I was told that Reza Pahlavi did much to remove tribal politics from the Iranian scene. According to the account that I heard, his methods were brutal. He took all the sons away from tribal chiefs. This eldest, he had killed. The others, he sent for schooling in the West. True? If so, it deserves mention in this article.

Yes, all of that's true. That's how the Bakhtiari elite (Teymur Bakhtiar, Khalil Esfandiary Bakhtiari et al.) became so well-educated, a tradition that has continued to this day with family members such as Rudi Bakhtiar. There are plenty of sources available about all this. Users SouthernComfort and Zereshk are very knowledgeable about Iranian history in general, and would probably be happy to give you some pointers. --Jpbrenna 19:22, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He was not illiterate

His Imperial Majesty

SC, after reading the Misplaced Pages guidelines you cited, it seems to me that you've misunderstood. It would be OK to say, Reza, Shah of Iran, or Mohammed Reza, Shah of Iran. Name, then title. But "His Imperial Majesty" is an honorific, not a descriptor. Suppose one doesn't want to honor Reza Shah? Suppose one loathes and despises the Pahlavis? It's much as if someone were to write an article about a Pope and consistently refer to him as "His Holiness". Someone who isn't a Roman Catholic might well object to this usage. I don't say "His Holiness" when I talk about the Pope, and I don't think Misplaced Pages should. Ditto pompous honorifics for rulers.

Are you a monarchist, that this is important to you? Zora 05:29, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

PS. I just looked through the history of the article. The article didn't have any honorific until July 8 of this year, when an anon introduced it. Zora 05:34, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Zora - "His Imperial Majesty" is a style, and technically, we do use these at the beginning of biographical articles on people who held them - at least, we tend to. There is some considerable dispute over whether we should do this or not, but note, say Pope Benedict XVI and George V of the United Kingdom, for examples of articles on both living and dead monarchs which list their style at the beginning. I completely agree with you that we should not "consistently refer to" monarchs, and so forth, by their styles. Sentences like "His Imperial Majesty then did this," ought to be cut out, if there are any. But that does not seem to be the case here. As to objecting to this usage, this argument is frequently made, but I remain unconvinced. To say that an Emperor is an Imperial Majesty is simply to note that "His Imperial Majesty" is a style which is attached to the office of Emperor. "His Holiness" is similarly attached to the office of Pope - it says nothing normative about the Holiness of the Pope, it is simply a traditional address attached to a title. Whether or not these should be included (I tend to think they should be, not so much for people like Popes and Kings, but for princes and princesses, whose style is often rather more difficult to predict if you don't know the intricacies of the rules - for instance, some Princes of Denmark are royal highnesses, and some are just highnesses.) remains an open question, but I'm not sure about the POV claim - it is no more POV to state that Reza Shah Pahlavi held the style of Imperial Majesty than it is to say that he was Shah of Persia/Iran. Whether you like him or not (I don't particularly care for either of the Pahlavis), he was the Shah, and as the Shah, he held the style of Imperial Majesty. The issue becomes more complicated for royalty of countries which are no longer royalties, but this issue does not arise with actual reigning monarchs. john k 05:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Persian vs. Iranian

Could you, if you will, please have a look into the following dispute on the Zoroastrian talk page.

Talk:Zoroastrianism#Persian_vs._Iranian

Thanks in advance. Str1977 10:00, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Title

This article shoud move to Reza Shah. Usually, Reza Pahlavi refers to Mohammad-Reza shah's son (Reza Shah's grandson). Bidabadi 19:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

That's true. I agree. Shervink 20:07, 9 March 2006 (UTC)shervink

Marjoribanks

A rather brief article for such an important figure. I might add some material from Cyrus Ghani's excellent Iran and the rise of Reza Shah, not to mention some of Robert Byron's wickedly funny observations on his regime from The Road to Oxiana.

خدا حافظ

Sikandarji 23:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Needs more images and content.

I was wondering if anyone could help locate more images for this article. For example, this image on Fa.WP; it's a great photo, but I don't know anything about the copyright. In North America and Europe, the copyright is life plus 70 years; what are the copyright laws for Iran? Other than that, I'd like to find other photos that we could possibly use (on the Reza Shah Farsi WP article, there is also a stamp image). Once this article starts getting longer (which I hope we can all do), it'll need more images. ♠ SG →Talk 01:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just did a major cleanup of the article. Still more work to be done, but at least it's a start. Comments? Let's get this article going! ♠ SG →Talk 22:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Good Article nomination

I've nominated Reza Shah for good article status. I think the article has gone through extensive changes in the past while, enough to warrant the nomination. Comments? ♠ SG →Talk 11:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Reviewer Comments

I've droped by to review the article. It looks like a solid candidate. Before I promote it, however, I'd like to see more inline references as it is difficult to tell where all the information in this entry is from. --CTSWyneken 16:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I've just added some more references. I believe that should take care of the lot of it, but are any other there any statements that you feel need referencing? ♠ SG →Talk 19:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick work! I'd like to see some references in the Rise to power section and the Family section. Also, something to back up the tomb destruction.--CTSWyneken 19:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I added three more references, one of which is used twice, so only two unique refs. I might have to move the third ref to the end of Overthrow of the Qajar dynasty, because it gives info for the second and third paragraphs of that section, not just the second. What do you think? ♠ SG →Talk 20:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks good. I've got to go out of town this weekend, but will look in again Monday. It's close enough to promote now, I think, but one or two more wouldn't hurt, esp. for anything that people might think, "Oh, really?" Very nice work here by all concerned, by the way. This is just small, picky stuff. --CTSWyneken 21:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm getting ready to go out in a bit, but I'll see if I can throw in a couple more refs tomorrow. Thanks for your help! ♠ SG →Talk 21:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty, that should take care of the references. Added a few more, of which the "mausoleum destruction" was probably most important. ♠ SG →Talk 23:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Done! Congrats! The article has been promoted. --CTSWyneken 15:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Great! Thanks for your help in improving the article, and thanks for promoting it! ♠ SG →Talk 19:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Surnames

The article is unclear when he adopted Pahlavi as his surname? Or when any of his surnames were adopted, dropped, and adopted? Could someone in the know make this more clear in the article?Mowens35 14:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

RE surname, then check out the genealogical link at the bottom of the article ... His father's last was Khan, as were his siblings. He didn't adopt Pahlavi until later in life. How do we handle this? It has to be handled properly and not ignored.Mowens35 14:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Also have to explain what Mirpanj means and also later title ... can't just plunk them into the text without explaining what they are and what they mean.Mowens35 16:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I didn't write the whole article, and I do not know the answers to all your questions. You can look them up if you like and add them. Shervink 16:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)shervink

Yeah, that's my fault. I added in his name changes, but I wasn't exactly sure why they occurred. I'll see what information I can dig up about it tomorrow. ♠ SG →Talk 06:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

changes by 24.81.87.152

The recent changes by 24.81.87.152 did appear to have some merit, and new sources, however it also removed sources, so its hard to justify the edit as a move towards NPOV; it feels more like a switch of POV, especially removing "the Great". To the contributor 24.81.87.152, feel free to re-introduce these changes slowly so others can review them (i.e. only edit one section at a time). If in doubt whether others will agree that the changes are for the better, talk about the changes here first to gather concensus. John Vandenberg 08:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Comments by A Historian

I have changed the previous version after seeing a student has used it as a source for his essay on the "Roots of Discontent in the Iranian Revolution". The student completely absolved the dictatorship of Reza Shah of any wrong doing and responsibility for creating a condition that resulted in the post war unrest in Iran that continued under the tyrannical rule of his son and ultimately caused the pendulum of history swing to a different direction. After reading the article I came to the conclusion that it is urgent to revise the article before other students also get a biased impression in favour of that tyrant.

Now I have at my disposal a library of more that 2000 books, and more than 150000, documents. It would be unrealistic to list them all. That’s why I offered few sources that I thought would satisfy a scholarly mind, but I welcome any inquiry about any of the thesis in the new version.

As for the title of “Great”, it would have been legitimate if the history had conferred that title to him as a sovereign. To call a despot ‘the Great’, because a Muppet parliament had voted by the dictate of his son, is beyond any reasonable credit.

I plan to read other pages related to recent history and edit them if needed. However, this may take a long time, as I am a busy man. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Artaxerex (talk • contribs) 19:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC).

Firstly of all, Im glad you created an account and come here to explain your contributions.

Im sure you will agree that the student is solely responsible for any conclusion in an essay; Misplaced Pages records facts and opinions of notable people; it does not present its own synthesised opinion, and should not be used as a source, nor should it need to be used as a source. A well written Misplaced Pages article will have copious sources so that the reader doesnt need to cite wikipedia. It is great that you want to get involved in improving this article, but in your haste you neglected to take my advice in #changes by 24.81.87.152. I specifically asked you to introduce your changes one section at a time, and only in the rarest case should you be removing sources in the article. As you will see, you have replaced the old problems with new problems, and usually everyone feels more comfortable with the old problems, so your work ends up being reverted. Anyway, its Sunday here and you have created an account, so here is a critical review of your contributions. After writing this, I will start slowly melding the old and your new contributions in the hope the final result is better. John Vandenberg 23:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

the Great

Where the article used the title of 'the Great' , it does not imply he was great; just that he was referred to as that. Unless you have a source that says nobody ever referred to him as 'the Great', it is an accurate title. In relation to that change, you replaced by vote of parliament to as a dictator he demanded the Parliament, which its members were hand-picked by himself to call him, however you did not provide a source for any of the facts you added:

1. he was dictator
2. he hand-picked the parliament
3. he demanded that they call him that

The way you have written it here is clearly to ensure that people dont get the wrong impression, however the result is that you are jamming statements of fact into this sentence without any hope of being able to adequately address them. In the very least, the use of the word "dictator" needs to go as over-simplistic. John Vandenberg 23:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

"over-simplistic” ! I am surprised. An overwhelming majority of the Persian sources of various political persuasions consider this as a fact – as I do. You only need to read the speeches of the members of the majles after the dictator was sent to exile. However, let’s look at some of the English sources:

• Barry Rubin, Paved with Good Intentions: The American Experience and Iran, Oxford University Press Inc. 1980, ISBN o 14 00 5964 4 AACR2 “Reza Shah operated more like a traditional monarch. He would not delegate authority. The bureaucracy trembled before him since anyone might be whisked away with the Shah's DICTATE. He preferred prestigious construction projects to more necessary irrigation work. He feared rather than promoted any mobilization of the people. Etc." Sounds dictatorial, doesn’t it?

• Michael Ledeen & William Lewis, Debacle: American Failure in Iran, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1981. ISBN 0-394-51657 AACRI “Mohammad Reza systematically discarded from power all men who might have developed a popular base of support. While his methods were not as ruthless as those of Reza Shah, he made it clear that he did not wish to have strong-minded men in the position of prime minister.” Sounds dictatorial, doesn’t it?

• Roy Mottahedeh, The Mantle of the Prophet, Religion and Politics in Iran, Pantheon Books, New York, 1985.ISBN 0-394-74865-4 “The (Reza) shah and the new intellectuals now lived in an uneasy symbiosis. Some of the new intellectuals refused to betray the ideals of (the Constitutional Revolution) of 1906 and refused to take their place in the national forced march even if it was going in a direction they wanted. These men went to prison, into exile, or committed suicide as did (Davar) the author of Reza Shah’s new law codeSounds dictatorial, doesn’t it?
• Richard W Cottam, Nationalism in Iran, University of Pittsburgh Press 1979. ISBN o-8229-3596-7 “This inability to win clear public acceptance on nationalist grounds in turn compelled both father (Reza Shah) and son to resort to strongly repressive policies to control the Iranian people” Sounds dictatorial, doesn’t it?
• Nikki R. Keddie and Yann Richard, Roots of Revolution, 1981, Yale University, ISBN 0-300-02606-4 AACR2

"Political life under Reza Shah was extremely limited, owing to the Shahs DESPOTIC CONTROLS and SUPPRESSION of OPPOSITION The prominent poet Eshqi was early assassinated for his opposition to the new ruler...Mohammad Mosaddeq, ..., continued briefly to attack Reza Shah's programs in the majles. He was soon put out of office and retired to his estate, re-emerging to prominence in WWII. Other high=level oppositionists either kept quite or were, at least for a time, co-opted by the regime, as was the former democratic leader of the constitutional revolution, Sayyed Hassan Taqizadeh, who became minister of finance and minister to England.
More striking was the fate of some of Reza Shah’s top advisers and aides. Abdol Hossein Taimurtash,.., died in prison after the oil negotiation of 1933, in which the shah suspected him of double-dealing. Sardar As’ad Bakhtiyari,…, become a leading supporter of Reza Shah, but was arrested and murdered in prison. Lesser men suspected of disloyalty were similarly treated…The majles became A RUBBER STAMP and the constitution was paid lip service only. Communist and socialist groups and propaganda were outlawed.” Sounds dictatorial, doesn’t it?

There are such references in virtually every pertinent historical book in English (and I can provide you with more), The Persian Books are even more explicit).

On the subject of “Great” I have not seen a single book in English that refers to him as “Reza Shah the Great”. Have you seen one?

When I was a young man in Iran people called him “Reza Khan the Thug (Qoldor)”. Young girls used to play a game that accompanied a song about him that can be translated as follows: They tricked you, they put a false crown over your head, do not think that you are a king. You are their black slave” (Sar beh saret gozashtan, kolah beh saret gozashtan. Khial nakon to shahie,to qolame siahie). This does not sound like the song of a people for their great king. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Artaxerex (talk • contribs) 08:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

(btw, I havent looked through this recent set of sources but thank you in advance for finding them -- any evidence of his dictatorship will find a place in the article in time)

wrt to "the great", I've not added it back to the title and lead sentence because I took heed of the points you have made earlier. I am not knowledgable enough on the topic to "push" for "the great" to be mentioned outside of the "Name" section.

wrt to using "dictator" in this section, you seem to have missed my point. I do not doubt he was a dictator; I dont care that he was a dictator or not; I just dont like the word "dictator" being added to the section "Name" because that section should be succinct and dedicated to his various names. Using the word "dictator" in that section of the article resulted in an awkward sentence. Quite simply, there is no room in that sentence to squeeze in any reasonable justification for using the word "dictator". I have reworded the sentence; what do you think of it? John Vandenberg 10:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Overthrow of the Qajar dynasty

In this section you moved "the role of the British" to the first paragraph and reworded it from a "sources say" to "popular view". Now I dont know offhand whether it is an accepted fact, and im willing to accept the number of sources support that, however I cant understand why you think it is more important to mention the "view" of the British role before the "real-true-undeniable-facts" of what happened. By doing so you have pushed the facts of the matter down. John Vandenberg 23:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

"the role of the British" is the "real-true-undeniable-facts" of what happened. Is it not strange? First you question if Reza khan was a dictator. Now you question the "role of British". May I ask why you are acting as an editor for this subject? Do you understand that the object is to provide an unbised source of information? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Artaxerex (talk • contribs) 09:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

As I said in my comment to the last section, I do not doubt he was a dictator -- you assumed that. And again here, I did NOT question the role of the British. I even said "im willing to accept the number of sources support that". Please stop leaping to conclusions and try to have faith in your fellow Wikipedians intention.

What I was pointing out was that you have rearranged this section and put more weight on the role of the British. The article says that the British's involvement is a "popular view" (those are your words) -- even using that phraseology, the British involvement should not carry as much weight as the stated facts of the matter -- i.e. the number of troops, their training, where they first started marching from. Those facts are the undeniable ones. On the other hand, the role of the British is poorly explained, and consequently doesnt currently deserve to be mentioned at the beginning of this section. The most obvious question is how did the British help? The article doesnt give any indication. Without those specifics, the role of the British is only worthy of mention as an auxiliary piece of information.

Please note that I am commenting on the way the section is arranged/phrased based on the facts and sources that have been provided --- I am not disagreeing with your sources or the facts presented. If you believe that the role of the British deserves to be in the first sentence of this section, you need to provide details of how the British helped put him on the throne. John Vandenberg 11:42, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Election to the Persian throne

In this section, you have removed two key dates:

1. December 15, 1925: he took his imperial oath
2. April 25, 1926: he receive his coronation and his son Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was proclaimed the Crown Prince

You also replaced two web sources with a book, which prevents many people from quickly looking at further information:

1. named ref "pahlera": The Pahlavi Era of Iran para. 2, 3
2. Timeline: Iran; A chronology of key events at bbc.co.uk

Now I can see you have moved the "pahlera" ref further up in the article, but it was also appropriate in this section. The BBC ref has been disappeared completely.

And in addition you have added lots of bold statements to this section, with a single source called "An Interpretive History of Modern Iran" (that book title doesnt conjure reliability)

1. he pushed for a "republic", fiercely opposed by the powerful clergymen
2. he forced the parliament to depose the young King
3. he assured the landlords and the conservative clergy that he will defend Islamic law

I would be useful if you could provide an additional source for these additions; and please include ISBNs when citing books so it is easier for others to verify the book and its contents. John Vandenberg 23:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I wanted to check the two sources carefully, before including them. The sources for the second segment are now cited in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artaxerex (talk • contribs) 09:13, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

No worries. In future, when you see a statement that you arnt confident is accurate, please add {{cn}} after it. You should only remove text from Misplaced Pages if you can prove it is incorrect, or if you have good grounds to doubt it, and after having asked for a reference, nobody has come forward. In both cases, it is advisable to explain your actions on the talk page. The key here is that you should never take it upon yourself to remove stated facts; always try to give other Wikipedians a chance to back up the fact with sources. John Vandenberg 11:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Reign and modernization

You removed an image. Why on earth would you do that?? All of the facts that were in this section have been replaced with a negative view of his reign. Could you please explain why you so heavily trimmed this section. John Vandenberg 23:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The removal of the image was done inadvertently. However, what you call a negative view of his reign are not my opinion, they are well documented facts. As you can see in the previous replies there are many other negative facts such as the stories of Davar and Sardar As'ad Bakhtiyary, and many others that are needed to be told. There is a book in Persian by Senator Ibrahim khajehnoori, The Players of the Golden Era, that is needed to be translated among many other books. There are many other documents that show how the Pahlavi era paved the path for what we see today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artaxerex (talk • contribs) 09:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

wrt to the image, no worries.

Please note that again I didnt doubt the negative facts here. I have no problems with the negative view being included in the article, provided it is carefully worked into the current article.

My question was why have you "heavily trimmed this section". I have added the removed image and text back into the article. If you dont believe any of the facts in this section, definately add {{cn}} so we can all see what you consider dubious. John Vandenberg 12:08, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with all your points. Umfortunately, I will be in Boston next month with a heavy work load. I will provide more sources when I reurn. On the British involvement Hossein Makki's 12 vol. of History of Iran in Twenty Years is an excellent source. Queen Soraya, the second wife of Mohammad Reza Shah In her memoirs (Palace of Solitude, Quartet Books, 1992, ISBN 0 7043 7020 4 implies that Reza Khan was promoted in the Cossack Brigade because of his father-in law: "Taj-al-Mullouk, my mother -in-law...Her father had commanded the cossack regiment in which her husband, Reza Khan, who was later to become Reza Shah, had done his training before becoming colonel. Was it not she, in a sense, who had promoted him in the rank of 'Shah of shahs'"

Michael Ledeen & William Lewis, Debacle: American Failure in Iran, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1981. ISBN 0-394-51657-7 AACRI write: "Reza Khan had a brilliant militay career, and a remarkable stroke of luck opend the door to power at the end of the Great War, when Great Britain occupied Iran in an effort to contain the spread of the Bolshevic Revelution. As part of their anti-Communist program, the British removed all Russian officers from the Iranian Cossack Brigade and replaced them with Iranian Nationals. Reza Khan soon came to the attention of the area commander of the British trooops, Major General Sir Edmund Ironside." Nikki R. Keddie and Yann Richard, Roots of Revolution, 1981, Yale University, ISBN 0-300-02606-4 AACR2 write: " While there is no written evidence of British civilian involvment in the coup (of Reza Khan) it is now known that the commander of British militay forces in Iran, General Ironside backed Reza Khan's rise to power in the Cossak Brigade and encouraged him to undertake a coup." Richard W Cottam, Nationalism in Iran, University of Pittsburgh Press 1979. ISBN 0-8229-3596-7 writes:" By the Treaty of Freindship of 1921 with Iran, ..., (Bolshevic) Russia renounced the hated capitulations, turned over all Russian assets except the fishery industry to Iran, and promised to withdreaw Russian troop from Gilan as soon as British evacuated south Iran... Ironically , however, the Iranian government that accepted the Treaty of 1921 was that ofSayyed Zia al-Din Tabatabai, a government that Iranians considered British-sponsored. In all likelihood, The Russians shared this Iranian assessment. Even after Sayyed Zia had fled and Reza Khan had become the real power in Iran, they may well have agreed with the Iranians that British influence was being exerted in Iran through Reza Khan."

Makki thesis is that to prevent the threat of Bolshevism and to put an end to the tribal unrest and their clamours for more radical reforms British planned and executed the coup of Reza Khan through their embassy’s involvement in Tehran with the support of General Ironside (Sayyed Zia’s cabinet was humorously dubbed Iron cabinet by Iranians). Makki suggests that many of the Reza’s industrial reforms in Iran was directly advantageous for British interest. For example, in spite of the fact that economically an east-west railway system was justifiable (due to the demographic factors), Reza Khan constructed an uneconomical north-south system, which was of greater benefit for the British who had a military presence in the south of Iran. The British strategic defence plan for the transfer of their troops to Russia in the north required a north-south railway. Should the Bolsheviks have threatened the British colonial interests in the Indian subcontinent, this strategic defence system would have compensated for Britain’s geographical distance.

Artaxerex 20:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

It is truly sad to see how one person, with little capacity of decent english writing and obviously even less knowledge of Iranian history, is using this page to promote hatred and bias against Reza Shah. The mere language used by this person shows that he/she cannot be an academic person, let alone an unbiased one. I demand that this article, which after all had been rated as "good", be returned to its original and stable state, and "any additions", which will probably be controversial given the changes that we have already seen, be proposed first on the talk page, discussed thoroughly, and then incorporated into the article. Shervink 14:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)shervink

Thanks for only partly reverting. the {{cn}}'s that you have left behind give Artaxerex ample to work on. And I agree with shervink; new content that alters the POV of the article should be discussed here, so that it can be reviewed and the article can be improved slowly. John Vandenberg 15:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

NOPV Model

• Shervinek’s personal attacks on Artaxerex are uncalled for. His innuendos and vandalism in inserting numerous citation tags in the middle of various sentences which is cheered by his chum John Vandenberg is appalling.

• Misplaced Pages is not a propaganda forum for Iranian monarchists, republicans or any other groups.

• The discussion of the Reza Shah role in the Iranian history should be in NPOV voice. That does not mean one can delete all the negative points about his character and his rule, and stress on his titles such as Great that was given to him by a puppet parliament. The fact that he was a ruthless dictator collected a vast fortune through embezzlements and confiscating lands, that who concentrated power in his hands through murdering his opponents, and used censorships and torture are well documented.

• Stalin, Franco, and Pinochet among others had the same characters as Reza shah. Thus wikipedia pages on these characters can be used as a NPOV model for Reza’s Page. For example, in Stalin case we read in Misplaced Pages that

  “Stalin's rule had long-lasting effects on the features that characterized the Soviet state from the era of his rule to its collapse in 1991… Stalin's rule - reinforced by a cult of personality - fought real and alleged opponents mainly through the security apparatus,... Millions of people were killed through famines, executions, deportations, and in the Gulag.”

Similarly for Franco we read:

“Student revolts at universities in the late 60s and early 70s were violently repressed by the heavily-armed Policia Nacional (National Police), ...Franco continued to personally sign all death warrants until just months before he died, despite international campaigns requesting him to desist.

And for Pinochet we read

“The regime's violence was directed against dissidents. It is not known exactly how many people were killed by government and military forces during the 17 years that he was in power, but the Rettig Report concluded that 2,279 persons who disappeared during the military government were killed for political reasons, and at least 30,000 tortured according to the Valech Report, and several thousand persons were exiled.”

• Nobody has asked for citation in any of these lines, and nobody accused the writer of those lines of using the page “to promote hatred and bias against Stalin, Franco,” This accusation is preposterous. When one reads various Iranian parliamentarians’ speeches (delivered immediately after Reza Shah was sent to exile, particularly that of Ali Dashti’s) the parallels and similarities of the Reza shah, Stalin, Franco, and Pinochet rules becomes quite evident. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.80.199.91 (talk) 00:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

First of all, I did not insult anybody. If Artaxerex (whose user id had been supposed to be Artaxerxes I assume!) feeled isulted, I wonder why he himself did not say so. In any case I sincerely hope that my tone was not inappropriate.

Secondly, I congratulate you on your insightful comment ragrding the personalities of four different historical figures. It seems that in your opinion, saying that all of them were "the same" is not a generalization, nor is it pov!

Thirdly, saying he was a dictator is ridiculous. Sure, Iran wasn't a democracy in his time, but then one would have to add this term to the articles on most monarchs throughout history. He was a monarch.

This article is in a terrible situation. The reason is the one-sided editing applied to it, which has obviously no regard for neutral writing. I do not have the time or the desire to engage in a lengthy discussion with wannabe historians. However, I think there can be no doubt that this article, in its present state, does not meet the good article criteria. I will therefore remove it from the list. Shervink 17:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)shervink

* This pipsqueak who does not want to engage in a lengthy discussion with wannabe historians, apparently thinks it would be suffice to assert his verdicts and expects that they be accepted as facts. He tries to pretend that Reza was a legitimate monarch, and not a ruffian doughboy who betrayed the trust of his true monarch, the young Ahmad shah. He is quite cute in his judgement about the article not meeting the good article criteria. Faranbazu 07:19, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Watch your language please. Your tone is totally inappropriate. Shervink 10:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)shervink

Do you mean you can call people "wannabe historians", and make various sarcastic remarks about them, and one can not infer from these that the writer is a pipsqueak?! Furthermore, your reverence for Reza Shah should not instil in any human-right advocate an intense feeling of contempt?!! Faranbazu 05:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, watch your language please. I'm not saying that facts about Reza Shah's autocratic rule should not be included. All I'm saying is that both good and bad things about his rule must be included objectively. You cannot selectively choose only those sources which attack him. Even in those cases where you use these sources, you cannot claim their content to be necessarily the truth, you should simply quote this and that person as saying this and that. Don't add analysis on your behalf. It might be good also if you read the wikipedia guidelines regarding sources and how to include them. As for being a human rights advocate, welcome to the club. I'm an amnesty activist myself. Shervink 09:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)shervink

Bad reference deleted

I deleted this reference/source because of it's biased POV and unreliability:

Black, Edwin Despite Holocaust denial, Iran seen to have worked with Nazis http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=16133&intcategoryid=2

Edwin Blacks article is full of factual inaccuracies, inpossibilities, exaggerations, lies and unsourced claims.

For example Black claims "Iranian Nazis" served in the Muslim Waffen-SS Division "Handschar". There is absolutely no evidence to this. I challenge anyone to back this claim up with some facts/evidence. Handschar consisted almost exlusively of Bosnians and other Balkan-Muslims. He also claims the "Handschar" SS-Division openly recruited in Tehran. The "Handschar" Waffen-SS Division was created in 1943. This was two years after Reza Shah abdicated and during the height of the Allied occupation of Iran. Blacks claim of Handschar-recruitment is not only unlikely... it's pretty much impossible.

Furthermore Black connects policies and crimes of the Grand Mufti Amin-Hajj al-Hosseini with Reza Shah, despite the fact that most of these happened after Reza Shahs abdication and had nothing to do with him.

Black also tries to paint Reza Shah (and also Mohammed Reza Shah) as a genocidal antisemite. Actually Reza Shah Pahlavi granted Jews equal rights, paid them respect in a synagogue and made a social and economical flourishing of Jews in Iran possible. The Pahlavi reign (father and son) was undoubtly the most free and safest time for Iranian Jews since ancient times. There undoubtly was pro-German/Nazi sentiment in Iran during the 1930's. Yet to describe Reza Shah as an Hitleresque antisemite on the same level as the Grand Mufti Hosseini is shameful, ridiculous and without substance.

Also Blacks anti-Iran hit-piece seems to see no difference between Iranians and Arabs and their respective policies during the 1930's and 1940's. The radical Pan-Arab and Islamist policies and movements are thrown together with the policies of Reza Shah who had infact strict anti-Arab, anti-Islamic, pro-Western, pro-secular and "Iranian-first" policies.

I therefore decided to delete this source as a reference. The concerned section in the article ("Persia was renamed Iran to emphesize the Aryan roots") remained untouched.

Striped cat 15:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)Striped cat|

Extremely biased

The entire Article is extremely biased and POV against Reza Shah Pahlevi. I'm not going to alter it right now, but the first paragraph.

"He established a repressive and corrupt regime that valued Persian nationalism, militarism, anti-liberalism and anti-communism combined with strict censorship and state propaganda"

This is extremely one-sided. Only the most negative aspects are listed. No word about the reforms, secularisation and modernisation. State propaganda and censorship is nothing particular about Reza Shah. Same can be said about EVERY state back then (even Western democracies) and also many, if not most, countries today. For comparison the Khomeini article doesn't include any such references in it's leading paragraph. A more balanced leading paragraph should be written (I have changed it a bit as an temporariy solution), paying attention to both his authoritarian and strict rule, but also to his reforms and modernisation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Striped cat (talk • contribs) 17:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

• Nonsense. The terms one uses to depict the regimes of such historical truculents, such as Benito Musolini, terms like "State-propaganda" and "sensorship" can be regarded as veritable compliments when applied to Reza Shah. In fact, Reza Shah's actions were by far more oppresive, and harsh than Musolini, and it is a true warping of history to deny this fact. Some my believe that history can be rewritten by the interest group, and that has given precise rise to such proponents to the truth, enyclopedias such as Misplaced Pages, which allow fact to be discerned from oppressive fiction. The article is shamefully silent about the savagery of Reza and his overall corruption. I have not the time right now to correct this, I will do so in an opportune time. I just hope to make my views known, and hopefully others will question the "known" facts and allow me the opportunity to explain in verifiable and researched arguments, as opposed to opinionated commentary that I see written here. Faranbazu 06:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The article at the moment is indeed biased. "Modernised" was changed to "Tried socio-economic reforms"?! there is no question that Iran and its modern development as we know it today was started by Reza Shah. Comparing Reza Shah to Musolini is like comparing Ata turk to Hitler. This was a nationalist phase throughout the world and even if Reza Shah was in a way promoting ethnic nationalism, he never went as far as many others went. Looking at attempts by imperialist states at the time especially the soviets, arguably if it wasn't for his efforts the country would have been seperated (and indeed it was for short periods). No matter how dirty facts are, they should be seen in that historical phase and context --Rayis 13:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• To assert that "there is no question that Iran and its modern development" was started by Reza Shah, is ludicrous at best, but not ludicrous enough: the exaggeration is the first trait of an Iranian monarchist anyway, so for want of historicity or originality the joke falls horribly flat.

For the truth is that Amir Kabir started the modernization process a century before. Amir Kabir founded the first European-style faculty, supported the foundation of the first Persian newspaper, established and planned for almost all of industries in Iran including steel factory, ship making, textile, weaponry, sugar, glass, and metal manufacturing,(the first Import Substitution policy in the history of economic development). Amir Kabir established strict customs procedures to reduce importation from Britain and made a strong and stable economy. He introduced patent regulation and supported entrepreneurial activities by providing them with loans and credit facilities. He enforced quarantine and mandatory vaccination to prevent disease outbreaks and epidemics. He made improvements in military, in discipline, salaries and establishing Navy, and extended Persian influence in Northern and Eastern borders. What Reza did was a destruction of these achievements. To assert that Reza prevented the country to be disintegrated (or in the words of Rayis; Separated!) is another flat joke. Artaxerex 23:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Artaxerxes, the country was "disintegrated" (if that is your preferred word), to soviet backed "republics", for more information feel free to investigate this. If you prefer to calls these "jokes", that is fine but such comments without sources are not really appreciated, especially when given in a provoking manner. See WP:Civil. Regards, --Rayis 16:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The article is biased in favor of Reza Shah.

The article whitewashes all the negative aspects of Reza's regime. There is no hint to be found in this article that his regime's atrocities and corruptions (augmented and exacerbated by the excesses of Mohammad Reza), were direct causes of the subsequent tragic historical events in Iran.

The so-called modernization program which his apologists refer to was not anything but the implementation of Lord Curzon’s plan after the Versailles, and Paris 1919 to create a viable buffer in Mesopotamia and Persia to safeguard British India's interests. In fact, construction of the railway, the reorganization of the government and other items in the so-called Reza Shah’s modernization efforts were among the items in the lopsided 1919 treaty that Curzon wanted to impose on Persians by bribing Vosough-ud-dula, Firooz and Sarem-ud-dula. When the three stooges could not deliver, Ironside arranged for the coup of Reza Khan. The article is also quiet about the murderous acts of assassinating Eshghi, Taimoortash, Davar, Modaress, etc. As well, various acts of corruptions like the embezzlement of public funds, the confiscation of private lands, and so on and so forth are totally ignored. I intend to write a NPOV as soon as I have some time. Meanwhile I have asked some students of mine to watch the article, for disturbing propaganda and historical distortions.

Artaxerex 20:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Artaxerex (or Artaxerxes?),

Please contribute to the article. Nobody is trying to stop you. But do not remove sourced material which correctly describes the positive aspects of his reign. Also, whenever you add something negative you have to say who has said this, i.e. quote your sources, don't state the material as undisputed facts. Additionally, as per wikipedia guidelines, we are not supposed to add our own analysis. Misplaced Pages articles are not research papers. They must be NPOV, inclusive of all credible sources, and verifiable. As for asking others to "watch" the article, I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean. But the hostile attitude that your sentences project are not encouraging. Misplaced Pages is open to all editors, and you should understand that before doing anything around here. Thanks for your cooperation.Shervink 10:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)shervink

Artaxerex, as per Essjay controversy please do not refer to your current or background scholar positions while discussing this article, it does not make any difference. Thanks --Rayis 16:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• Dear Shervink

As I have asked you and your associates in neumeous times before, please do not use Misplaced Pages as a monarchist propaganda platform. I am not sure what is your background, but it appears that you are not paying any attention to all the references I have provided for my contributions. The resort to sock puppets to distort historical facts is deplorable. As I have mentioned before, Misplaced Pages is used by many students as a reference source. Thus we have to be honest and truthful in our statements. What I have contributed up to now all are from reliable academic sources (many of which are recorded in this very page). All your positive comments are from questionable websites or non-academic aticles that are not piere reviewed. If You have any specific question about any of my information I will be more than happy to provide you with the references. I intend to write a more balanced and more accurate essay based on verifiable documents. However, in the meatime please let me to maintain my hostile attitude towards those who resort to fiction and distortion of facts.

Artaxerex 17:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Editorial Integrity is Vital for Misplaced Pages

I like wikipedia. It has democratized the access to epistemology, for which it is becoming a valuable source. Unfortunately, for many people subscription to sites such as the JSTORE, to gain access to the scholarly pier reviewed articles, is financially prohibitive, and here is the place that Misplaced Pages plays it’s the most important role. I am saddened that the history department at Vermont’s Middlebury College has band students from using the site in citations. Sadly Don Wyatt the department’s chair is quoted as saying that the recent Essjay embarrassment is “vindicating in an interesting way”. My feeling is that Don should, and he could, mobilize his department,like many others throughout the world, to work on improving wikipedia content and preventing people like Rayan Jordan to damage such an important source for students. Nevertheless, I agree with Dan Brandt of Misplaced Pages Watch, who said “if you’re going to intrude in the social sphere, you have to be accountable for it”. It is in this spirit that I welcome Jimmy Wales’s initiative, announced yesterday that I understand would exert some degrees of scrutiny on the editors who exhibit some inappropriate agenda. This would hopefully weed out the postings by interest groups that either purposefully or inadvertently undermine the credibility of this source.

It should be clear that on the Reza Shah page we are already having such a problem, with some editors trying to portray an oppressive and corrupt dictatorial regime which destructed a fledging democracy, by ignoring the rules of law and by total disregard for a hard won constitution as a kind of moderniser and liberator. Despite the fact that there are ample evidences that the process of modernization in Iran was started during Amir Kabir, and the modernization program of Reza khan was at most a rehashing of the provisions of the 1919 treaty of Lord Curzon with Vosough-ud-dulah, these editors insist to distort the history. 140.80.199.91 21:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Ghani's book

Ghani's book is by far the most thorough source for the information about the rise of Reza shah to power. It hasn't been mentioned in this article. Jahangard 02:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Jahangard, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you are genuinly unaware of the implementation of the 1919 agreement by Reza shah. Under the terms of the Agreement Britain, after pledging respect for Persia's integrity, undertook to provide expert Advisers for her Treasury and any other departments of government that needed them (in effect, to bring them under the British control == Reza shah implemented this socalled reform); to second military officers for the reorganization of Persian army (incorporating the South Persia Rifles to create a subservient army == implemented by Reza shah) and to provide munitions and other material for its equipment; to help her revise her Customs tariff ; to assist her in the planning and construction of new railway and road projects (mainly to create the necessary infrastructure for Curzon’s strategic defense system of India == implemented by Reza shah); and finally, the carrot after the stick, a loan of £2million to be secured on customs and other revenue. In two letters addressed to the Persian Government simultaneously with the Agreement Britain promised (a larger carrot) to 'reconsider' current treaties to which Persia objected-this was understood by both parties to mean that the British would eventually, under proper safeguards, agree to the abolition of Consular courts, the so called, 'capitulations' (which Reza shah took credit for). Faranbazu 04:50, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Your sources don't support your sentence. Reza shah didn't implement the 1919 agreement and that's a fact. About your calims:

1. Reza shah didn't bring Iran under British control. He actually gradually fired all the foreign advisors.
2. Reorganazing Persian army and abolishing the South Persia Rifles (which were under British control) was in spite of British will, not because of it.

Your historical analysis is, at best, an example of Original Research, if not a deliberate distortion of historical sources. Jahangard 05:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a clear POV by the monarchist camp. Your distortion of historical facts is sickening.

According to Harold Nicolson, "it was largely owing to…Sir Percy Loraine , that he owed his...rise to power. After the collapse of Lord Cruzon’s Anglo-Persian Treaty of 1919, it was evident that Persia was heading for complete disintegration; only hope was that she could be renovated under strong leadership from within; Sir Percy rightly foresaw that Reza Khan was capable of such regeneration. See: Benab, Younes P. The Soviet Union and Britain in Iran, 1917-1927: A Case Study of the Domestic Impact of East-West Rivalry. Washington, D.C.: The Catholic University of America, 1974. Stop Vandaliasm!24.81.87.152 06:38, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delisted good articles
• Unassessed Iran articles
• Unknown-importance Iran articles
• WikiProject Iran articles
• Unassessed biography articles
• WikiProject Biography articles