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WikiProject UK Railways
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Redirect London Tilbury and Southend Railway

The plan is:-

  1. to take the existing article called London Tilbury and Southend Railway and rename it London Tilbury and Southend Line(s)
  2. take the article on the pre-grouping company (1854-1912) and transfer from my sand box to a full article called London Tilbury & Southend Railway
  3. The links for stations and locomotives will presumably direct to the London Tilbury and Southend Line(s) which won't be wrong as such but the new London Tilbury & Southend Railway will be better - is there a way around this?
  4. Improve the history of the London Tilbury and Southend Line(s) to cover the Midland, LMS and early BR days e.g. 1912 onwards.

The question I have are: What is the protocol for renaming (and please see talk page for other naming options) What is the protocol for getting the new article up - does it need reviewing first?

Please feel free to look at the work in progress (assuming that is possible).

https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Davidvaughanwells/sandbox

--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 17:30, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

So, as far as moving is concerned, we need:
  1. London Tilbury and Southend Railway moved to London Tilbury and Southend line
  2. User:Davidvaughanwells/sandbox moved to London Tilbury and Southend Railway
@Davidvaughanwells: is that correct? I'll take a look if this conforms with article title policies, and if you confirm it is what needs to be done I can give you a hand. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:03, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Ok, on further look:
1) Unless you can convince me that the WP:COMMONNAME for the modern railway line is Essex Thameside (or something else, really, so long it is a valid title), it probably needs to stay at the current title.
2) your point 1) refers to a redirect - am I correct in deducing that you would want to move your sandbox to that redirect?
3) Nothing links to either of "London Tilbury and Southend Line" or "London Tilbury and Southend Lines" (per the respective Special:WhatLinksHere pages); so no issue on that front, although the proper title would likely be in sentence case so in all likelihood "line"
4) For others, there's a discussion at Talk:London,_Tilbury_and_Southend_Railway#Requested_split_Feburary_13_2020.
Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:09, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Thanks @RandomCanadian:, I think you need to consider the history of the network and how wikipedia treats geographical lines else where. The London and Tilbury and Southend was a railway company and developed the route. Historically the line has until recently always been known as the London Tilbury and Southend but its history after 1912 was under the Midland, LMS and British Rail. So to be clear the article I have written is on the early history of the route and the pre-grouping company and the current page only gives that the briefest of mentions.

If we take the neighbouring Great Eastern Railway its geographic scope is covered by a number of line articles such as Great Eastern Main Line and this is mostly consistent through Misplaced Pages. Therefore renaming it to London Tilbury and Southend lines is consistent with how wikipedia has dealt with railway history.

I concede there is potential for confusion and I can just copy my work into the current article and then start working on the later history as and when I get round to it. I am concerned that other well meaning editors could pollute the article with post 1912 material so a copy and paste over the rudimentary early history of the current entry has its merits (and looks like less work).

--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 09:12, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Have to say, I prefer your seperate article version. A hidden note to other editors to add post 1912 info to the older article should cover it. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 09:49, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
@Davidvaughanwells: The alternative would be to have a separate article using parenthetical disambiguation, something like "London, Tilbury and Southend Railway (pre-grouping company)" (do we have some other examples of this kind of stuff just so we can compare for consistency's sake?); and then leave a note at the top about it in the article about the modern primary topic. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:22, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
We don't need the disambiguator. Davidvaughanwells's original proposal is just fine. One article about the railway company up to 1912, and one about its lines, although there is a possibility these could be dealt with separately. Mjroots (talk) 20:15, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
@Mjroots: So the course of action would be
  1. London, Tilbury and Southend Railway -> London, Tilbury and Southend line (and either suppress the redirect immediately or G6 it thereafter to make way for no. 3, whichever is more convenient)
  2. Fix the links to London, Tilbury and Southend Railway (there's 400 of them; - somebody with AWB would be the fastest way to fix this)
  3. User:Davidvaughanwells/sandbox -> London, Tilbury and Southend Railway
? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:43, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Move the railway title to the lines title. Fix the links, checking whether any to remain pointing to an article about the company, if they do the leave them. Then get a friendly admin (*cough*) to move the sandbox to the company title, sorting out the offending G6 at the same time. Mjroots (talk) 20:50, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
The fact is I could spare you the G6 (this is still active for a wee bit); but ok, when I get time for it, will be a happy distraction from current pursuits. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:12, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

@Mjroots: Do you have any clue why the inconsistent capitalisation on Template:Railway lines in London? We need to pick one for consistency. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:19, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

As for the moves, that should be  Done. I'm working on fixing the redirects. If I'm not done tonight I'll probably leave a request at AWB so they can finish. There was a template which might account for a substantial portion of the 400 links. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:34, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Additionally there are the odd cases like Becontree which refer to the line in the period when the line was owned by the Midland railway; those I'm not touching for the time being. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:20, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
I've done a fair bit. There's Category:Former London, Tilbury and Southend Railway stations (done as far as Ockendon) which will need some more thorough checking than the rest. And then all the modern day articles are also annoying because in addition to the templates (which I've corrected), many of them have route boxes at the bottom. Guess that would be a task best suited for AWB. The rest will have to be done manually, though it's not that bad, there's only about 200 articles still to check. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 05:34, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Thank you.--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 23:00, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Right now I'm busy with some things for off-wiki matters, but when I get a bit more time I'll go through all the articles that have a link to the railway page and verify them; though I think a decent part of the problematic links have been dealt with after the AWB request. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:24, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
I have worked through the rest of the stations and checked the individual locomotive class entries.--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 00:10, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

British Rail Class 447

The unreferenced British Rail Class 447 article has been nominated for deletion. Mjroots (talk) 15:47, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Its gone --Davidvaughanwells (talk) 14:11, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Kingsway tram station

Noted in news: ... anyone interested if seeing if relevant to Kingsway tramway subway. I've got about 3/4/5 articles I'm messily stacked on already ... and not sure if its a straightforward update. Djm-leighpark (talk) 12:34, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The article is wrong about it being the first time in 70 years, someone has posted a series of photos on Flickr of an organised visit there in 2009. Quite likely wasn't the only such visit. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 14:19, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Great Western main line

I am going to give it a day or two but I am going to be bold and move this page to capitalise. If we look at MML - Midland Main Line or West Coast Main Line or East Coast Main Line or even Great Central Main Line they are all capitalized. Even Bonnie Scotland has Highland Main Line in capitals. This article does not. I strongly feel we need consistency. I raised the issue on the talk page quite a while ago and a few agree with me GRALISTAIR (talk) 11:30, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you too, but be prepared for pushback. There are one or two editors who are really keen to decapitalise almost everything, railway lines among them. There have been several quite contentious discussions in the past 2-3 years. Thryduulf (talk) 11:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @GRALISTAIR: You need to give it more than a day or two: not everyone has time or is inclined to visit their favourite Misplaced Pages pages daily. A couple of weeks would be more accommodating. There's been a history of pages yoyoing back and forward between having "main line" capitalised or not. Although I prefer "main line", I'm not fussed if it's "Main Line", as long as there's consistency in article titles and links. I suggest, though, that some references are obtained to show that there is more use of "Main Line" than "main line": we work on WP:RS rather than our own likes. List of railway lines in Great Britain shows 22 with "main line" in their name. All but five are capitalised, the exceptions being South Western main line, Brighton main line, Chatham main line, South Eastern main line, and South Humberside main line. Advanced search reveals the following with lowercase entries: Great Western main line, Caledonian main line, South Western main line, Brighton main line, South Humberside main line, TransPennine main line (redirects to Huddersfield line), South Eastern main line. It looks like the current flavour is for "Main Line". Advanced search also lists templates which are lowercase: Template:Great Eastern main line RDT, Template:Chatham main line, and Template:South Eastern main line. Bazza (talk) 12:09, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
Adding WP:RS: Network Rail call it "Great Western Mainline", so following WP:RS suggests we should use the current redirect at Great Western Mainline for the main article. They also have "West Coast Mainline" and "South West Mainline", but "Chiltern main line" and "East Coast Main Line", so should we stick to WP:CONSISTENT, or follow WP:RS? Bazza (talk) 12:19, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
Regarding "Mainline" vs "Main Line" we should follow the sources. This is going to lead to inconsistency but that can't be helped when the real world is inconsistent. Thryduulf (talk) 12:42, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Agreed - I will probably give it at least a month unless someone else does it first GRALISTAIR (talk) 19:40, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

I swear I am not fussed either way but there should be consistency. I raised the issue on GW main line talk page a few months back. Consistency is my beef GRALISTAIR (talk) 12:21, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

I mean in meandering I noticed on the page Rail operating centre it refers to West Coast Route Modernisation. How far do we take this whole thing? Why is Route capitalised? Why is Modernisation capitalised? For that matter why is Coast capitalised? So should WCML read West coast main line? Perhaps I have lived in the USA way too long! GRALISTAIR (talk) 13:35, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

WCRM is the name of a project, so is a proper noun, and thus capitalised. FWIW I agree with capitalised Line - the Line is part of the name. LU's insistence on lower-case has always peeved me. -mattbuck (Talk) 15:22, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth I 100% agree that the current guidelines on capitalisation are ludicrous, and clearly unfit for purpose if they produce the results that we have seen. They only exist because of a few editors have a bizarre obsession with the issue! G-13114 (talk) 19:49, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Move request initiated at Talk:Great Western main line#Requested move 11 July 2021 Mallaeta (talk) 06:58, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
Given the above RM gave a clear result, have opened another RM to cover he remaining articles with main line in lower case. Mallaeta (talk) 11:16, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

AfD

Denton railway station (Lincolnshire) has been nominated for deletion. Mjroots (talk) 17:53, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

"Daventry Parkway Project" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Daventry Parkway Project. The discussion will occur at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 July 15#Daventry Parkway Project until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:06, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Courtesy notification only. This proposal has no evidence of wider acceptance or notability, so may safely be skipped if busy. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:16, 16 July 2021 (UTC)


Merchant Navy Class

The SR Merchant Navy Class article (FA class) currently only mentions one incident, that involving the broken axle on Crewkerne. I'm not sure that it had anything to do with the performance of the unmodified locomtives, which it is currently a subsection of.

There are other accidents and incidents involving the class which are not mentioned. I propose to move the subsection containing the Crewkerne incident to a become a retitled "Accidents and Incidents" section immediately above the "Withdrawal" section and add some other incidents I can verify, unless there are any objections. Mjroots (talk) 11:37, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

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