Talk:Asperger syndrome - Misplaced Pages

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Merging Page With Autism

Remind me again why wikipedia is not doing this. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has recently concluded Aspergers Syndrome is- for all intents-and-purposes- the same condition as autism.Ordessa (talk) 12:27, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

It's complicated. Semantics mostly.--Auric talk 17:56, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Because Asperger syndrome still exists in the WHO ICD scheme. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:29, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

The Autism article is already far too long - the spectrum of autism is conveniently (if arbitrarily) divided into several different segments (of which Asperger Syndrome is one) - and currently each has it's own article. If we merged them all back together then the very next thing we'd have to do would be to figure out how to split the resulting gigantic article up again - and the present division is as good as any.

The changes in DSM V don't alter the fact that we have special names for various sections of the Autism spectrum - all it does it to make clear that from a diagnostic perspective, these are all shades of symptoms from what is presumed to be a common cause or set of causes.

SteveBaker (talk) 01:41, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

As an adult person who appears to have Asperger's and has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and depression, it is vital for me to have been able to begin my search for answers here in this wonderfully real Misplaced Pages universe; merging these articles would do a disservice to those who need this information for the information that it is. That's the point: Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a diagnostic tool. Whether the American Psychological Association classifies Asperger's as a separate diagnosis or not has no bearing here, other than as a noted piece of information in the article(s). I agree that the Autism, and even the High-Functioning Autism articles are already so heavily informative that it/they cannot absorb the additional information in the Asperger's article and be functionally serviceable for a reader; it would amount to one of Misplaced Pages's books, which is what I did with these and related pages - put them into my own "book". It is wise to keep Misplaced Pages the information resource it is by not politicizing or medicalizing information. Anniecan (talk) 18:26, 10 July 2014 (UTC)anniecan

Asperger's and high level autism are two different subjects. The fact that DSM cannot figure out how to deal with them does not mean that Misplaced Pages should necessarily add to the confusion. As someone who has been diagnosed with Asperger's, the ability to look specifically for Asperger's rather than a generic "autism" article provides the reader with a lot more direction. Where is the benefit from merging? Does it disenfranchise a group of people who identify with Asperger('s) Syndrome? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.9.167 (talk) 07:44, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Would someone please explain the difference between "Asperger's" and "high functioning autism"? As a practicing psychiatric social worker, I do not know the difference. Granted ASDs are not an area of my expertise. But going by current definitions in professional literature, there is no difference.Dstern1 (talk) 20:53, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

The article High-functioning autism explains the differences, though not everyone agrees on them or their clinical significance. I think this talk page needs a big banner stating that just because DSM-V has merged their diagnostic categories doesn't mean that a syndrome thousands of people are diagnosed with and is part of common culture will suddenly disappear. These requests are like saying that just because The Beatles split up, we should no longer have that article. -- Colin° 09:19, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Great analogy. Maybe we should put it on all psyc related article talk pages. The world does not revolve around the DSM even though some seem to think so. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 17:24, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

By no means would I ever suggest that all reference to the term "Asperger's" be excised. I also see merit in the argument that it would be inadequately concise if the 2 articles were merged. None-the-less, I question the existence of differences. Yes, this is a complicated and controversal issue.Dstern1 (talk) 17:58, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

The diagnosis of Asperger syndrome is scientifically and culturally significant despite being deprecated, since notability is WP:NOTTEMPORARY, but the article will need to be rewritten from a historical perspective. Muffinator (talk) 20:57, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Asperger syndrome is currently only deprecated in the DSM. Asperger diagnosis is not historical if many countries which rely more on the ICD (including here in the UK) are still diagnosing it. Misplaced Pages is about more than just the US... ChiZeroOne (talk) 23:15, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

As I noted on the HFA talk page, there is a huge problem with the other article. The problem is with terms and definitions. It defines HFA as "autism without mental retardation" and references a journal article in Portuguese as the source. I had expressed frustration as I do not read Portuguese; however, I have been fortunate to obtain an English translation. The article as translated never uses the term "High Functioning Autism." It differentiates between people with autism and mental retardation and without MR. Unquestionably, people without MR are functioning on a higher level than those with MR. But the cited article does not report upon less impaired people with autism per se. Hence, I propose that the HFA article be deleted and a redirect here for those searching for "High Functioning Autism." Dstern1 (talk) 00:52, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Can people from India get aspergers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.165.120 (talk) 05:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I have worked with Aspergers for a long time and they are such different levels they are like night and day, I would greatly caution against including them in one article. the article would be very very long. Jinandtonicpark (talk) 14:12, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Treatment and intervention

Under the Management section, I wonder if we could list both common interventions used in educational and home settings, and also list schools and programs that are specifically set up to help students with Asperger's. This seems to be a resource that families are often looking for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Troolium (talk • contribs) 17:47, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Not a disorder

Asperger syndrome is not a disorder. It is, to some extend, actually the opposite. People with it actually have much better geographical skills. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.175.40.89 (talk) 09:14, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

You will need WP:MEDRS sources if you want to include such a statement in this article. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:59, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Indeed - but in any case, it's a spectrum condition. My Asperger's has more benefit than downside - but I've met plenty of sufferers who have a very hard time of it. SteveBaker (talk) 02:25, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Asperger Syndrome and other "conditions" within the Autism spectrum are not considered a disorder by members of the Autism rights movement. Such individuals are part of a new brand of social movement, promoting neurodiversity. The idea of neurodiversity is that people who are wired differently (like those on the Autism spectrum) tend to suffer most because of the poor way they are treated by their environment and that society should embrace the strengths that come with Autism rather than stressing its weaknesses.

Autism rights movement

Further information: Autism rights movement

The autism rights movement (ARM) is a social movement within the neurodiversity movement that encourages autistic people, their caregivers and society to adopt a position of neurodiversity, accepting autism as a variation in functioning rather than a mental disorder to be cured. The ARM advocates a variety of goals including a greater acceptance of autistic behaviors; therapies that teach autistic individuals coping skills rather than therapies focused on imitating behaviors of neurotypical peers; the creation of social networks and events that allow autistic people to socialize on their own terms; and the recognition of the Autistic community as a minority group.

Autism rights or neurodiversity advocates believe that the autism spectrum is genetic and should be accepted as a natural expression of the human genome. This perspective is distinct from two other likewise distinct views: (1) the mainstream perspective that autism is caused by a genetic defect and should be addressed by targeting the autism gene(s) and (2) the perspective that autism is caused by environmental factors like vaccines and pollution and could be cured by addressing environmental causes.

The movement is controversial. There are a wide variety of both supportive and critical opinions about the movement among people who are autistic or associated with autistic people. A common criticism leveled against autistic activists is that the majority of them are high-functioning or have Asperger syndrome and do not represent the views of all autistic people., even though some prominent figures in the movement (such as Amy Sequenzia) are nonverbal and have been labeled as low-functioning.

Cultural references

The TNT show The Bridge and the same named Danish-Swedish show on which it is based are without a doubt the most important cultural references to AS that have ever occurred. Therefore, I can only consider removing reference to them from the article as vandalism and will report it as such. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 19:27, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I in fact provided an edit summary. As discussed at WP:IPC, when adding cultural references you should provide third-party sources as a means of establishing their significance. DonIago (talk) 19:59, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Completely agree with DonIago. Third-party references are a must. --NeilN 22:45, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Have either of you ever watched the show? Chuck Hamilton (talk)

Have you read WP:V? "Misplaced Pages does not publish original research. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it." --NeilN 22:59, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

It's not original research. In fact, Sonya Cross' AS is what got me interested in the show in the first place. Both those Misplaced Pages articles clearly and prominently referenced it. I can't believe no one has referenced the show here before. Sonya Cross isn't a minor character; she's the lead character. Marco Ruiz is the other main character, but Cross, the AS character, is more prominent. The Jerry Espenson character played by Christian Clemenson on Boston Legal was given AS by the writers, but they failed to consult with someone who knew anything about it and wrote him with symptoms of Tourette's instead. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 23:27, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

The trouble with "Cultural References" sections is that they accumulate junk at an alarming rate. There are hundreds of cultural references for this syndrome out there. Flooding the article with a L-O-N-G list of them is objectionable - and picking and choosing among them is ripe territory for WP:RECENTISM. See Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Trivia sections for further guidance. But in these cases, it's utterly vital to have solid references. SteveBaker (talk) 03:00, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

In this case, a hugely successful and accurate TV show has the top-billed of its two protagonists with Asperger's, and that is most definitely relevant. Where would you put that if not in a "cultural references" section? Chuck Hamilton (talk) 00:21, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Removed again ... this information does not belong here. I have linked to it in Sociological and cultural aspects of autism. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:06, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Asperger and autism present very different symptoms, and the show in question specifically states the character of Detective Cross has Asperger's. Since I supplied several references and since the section includes a Wikilink to the main article on cultural references to AD, I can only assume the removal earlier today was part of the ongoing campaign to merge this article with the one on autism. As for concensus, there isn't one here,but the editor with whom I was in disagreement thanked me for my last edit of the section that you removed. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 23:47, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Asperger is on the autism spectrum and Sociological and cultural aspects of autism has other pertinent info on the syndrome. That's a much better article for the content. --NeilN 02:05, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes that would be an appropriate place for it. Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:20, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

And now I have removed it. We need not add such trivia, and this article is about a medical diagnosis, not about trivia. Dbrodbeck (talk) 23:52, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm curious as to why you seem to want to hide the fact that persons with AS are represented, often positively, in the media. I did not create the section "Cultural references", I added the information about The Bridge because what was already there was almost completely irrelevant while The Bridge is directly relevant and accurate in its portrayal, at least according to its AS consultant who has AS. The other material got eliminated,btw, in one of the revisions. That show, in fact, was the very reason I looked at this article in the first place, and I see no reason to make persons with AS invisible by pretending such representations do not exist. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 07:02, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

The material is better suited to another article. We do not list the many positive pop culture portrayals of people with a developmental disability. This does not mean we're "hiding" facts. --NeilN 08:02, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

What NeilN said. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:57, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Agree with the others, without an independent reliable secondary source that provides significant coverage the social aspects of Asperger generally and discusses how this particular show is particularly important, adding this mention is questionable. A brief interview with the actress playing the part or entertainment-related blogs aren't sufficient for inclusion here, although they might be for the actress's BLP or the article on the TV show itself. Zad68 13:08, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Wrong information

There is wrong information on this page. It clearly says on here that there have been no genes found linked with autism or Asperger's. This could not be more false if it tried. Autism, and therefore also Asperger's being a form of autism, have already been identified with ten gene mutations. The Autism Speaks group, with millions of dollars in federal funding, conducted a study to find just that. All the genes are related to nicotinic acetylcholine, adenosine, NMDA, and AMPA in the brain. There is also one gene mutation in some called the CHD8 gene. Although it does not affect all but actually a fairly small fraction, it is still very significant. "In their study of 6,176 individuals with ASD, the researchers found 15 who had a mutation in the CHD8 gene. All 15 shared distinctive physical characteristics and health issues. They looked strikingly similar, with broad foreheads and wide-set eyes. They also shared a history of gastrointestinal problems (severe constipation) and disturbed sleep. Sleep problems and constipation are common but not universal among individuals with autism. - See more at: http://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/study-links-specific-gene-autism-subtype#sthash.YgQLToDh.dpuf" This error and lack of information needs to be amended by someone willing to link together all the pertinent data and who understand HTML well enough to properly edit the article. Under medications Clonidine HCl, Memantine HCl, and Ketamine HCl need to be added. This is a rather thoughtless omission. Do not delete this I have proof for every single claim, legitimate proof from scientific journals. I will provide proof to any specific claim requested of me. This will deeply improve this article, which is at this time horribly lacking. A disruption in adenosine results in the inability to properly ionize the Mg2+ ion at the glycine site at the NMDA receptor, resulting in overactive calcium expression, resulting is racing and repetitive thoughts. The data is overwhelmingly obvious to anyone with any basic understanding of neurology. Let us actually share useful information; the article the way it is is quite frankly utterly unacceptable. There is also no mention of the issue of co-morbid suicidal ideation which is markedly higher in the population with Asperger's than any other population. Look at this article. http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/2014/suicidal-thoughts-alarmingly-common-in-people-with-autism Thank you and have a nice day. Also how can I be the first person to suggest this on here, that seems odd to me. Memantine and clonidine are already being prescribed off-label by many doctors for Autism. Again I have proof for every single claim, I just need a little time to organize them all for use on wikipedia. This is why I am posting this here on the Talk page for now. Once I get all the referenced data properly organized, I will post it here on the Talk page and allow someone with HTML experience to merge it into the current article. Thank you, this information is very important and needs to be made public knowledge. There is also no mention of the fact that autistic patients experience reduced REM sleep than the average person, again another issue I have proof for. Look here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3111973/ Here is an article for adenosine http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028390812004492 . Here is an article for memantine and NMDA antagonists for both Autism and Asperger's. http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v31/n5/fig_tab/nbt0513-367_T1.html Here is a reference for Nictotinic Acetylchloine antagonism as a useful treatment in Autism. http://utd.edu/~mxa049000/lessons/research/literature/Autism/super%20new/Lippiello%20nicR%20blockers%20for%20autism%20MH%2006.pdf Ketamine and memantine HCL are both potent NMDA antagonists, as well as Nicotinic Acetylcholine antagonists- therefore the effectiveness couldn’t be more obvious, and I have personally seen its effect in patients. Dr. Craig Erikson of Cincinnati Children’s hospital is currently running clinical trials where he uses an intranasal ketamine spray to treat autistic patients. Here is a reference of proof of this. http://www.psychiatrist.com/_layouts/PPP.Psych.Controls/ArticleViewer.ashx?ArticleURL=/jcp/article/Pages/2014/v75n08/v75n0810.aspx I will continue to add more references for things I mentioned in time, I have an insanely large amount of data too add. I have dedicated the last two and a half years of my life to this research, and have so very much to show for it, so please please listen to me. For now though I need to go to sleep, I have been very sick and need my rest.

Sincerely, Alexander Charles Lewis (talk) 05:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC) an Autistic patient, researcher, and advocate.

Thank you for your interest in improving this article. We would certainly be interested in any helpful corrections or additions. Be aware, however, that any information in a medicine-related Misplaced Pages article must be based on reliable, third-party, published secondary sources and must accurately reflect current medical knowledge. In particular, primary sources should generally not be used for medical content. See the content guideline on "Identifying reliable sources (medicine)", via the link WP:RSMED (or WP:MEDRS). Also see the subsection of the "No Original Research" policy called "Primary, secondary and tertiary sources" (WP:PSTS). In brief, what these pages say is that we need to be extremely careful about using a "primary" source (such as an article in a medical journal) — it's far, far better to find a high-quality secondary source which reviews and evaluates the available primary sources. We are required to be especially wary of leading/bleeding-edge material, or material from a researcher who is promoting his own research results, or material which appears to contradict the mainstream. This may mean that Misplaced Pages will be somewhat behind the times when brand-new breakthrough claims are involved, but that's just the way we need to be. — Rich wales (no relation to Jimbo) 06:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Signs and Symptoms

Would you mind if I started a signs and symptoms section. Many of the other pages have this and I find its good to have a list like format for this part. Let me know what you think and I'll start one, likely starting with those listed by the Mayo clinic http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/autism-spectrum-disorder/basics/definition/con-20021148 Thanks Jinandtonicpark (talk) 14:16, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

New posts go at the bottom of the page. This article already has that section, under the alternate name of "Characteristics" (some people in the autism community don't like the terminology of symptoms). Please see WP:MEDMOS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:54, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

^ Solomon, Andrew (2008-05-25). "The autism rights movement". New York. Archived from the original on 27 May 2008. Retrieved 2008-05-27. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
Mission Statement. Autism Acceptance Project. Retrieved on 2008-11-24.
Mission Statement. Aspies for Freedom. Retrieved on 2008-11-24.
Autism Network International presents Autreat. (2008-05-23) AIN.
"Declaration From the Autism Community That They Are a Minority Group" (Press release). PRWeb, Press Release Newswire. 2004-11-18. Retrieved 2007-11-07.
"The autism rights movement". Synapse.org.au.
Amy Sequenzia (2013-01-19). "When Autistics Grade Other Autistics". Ollibean.

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