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Talk:Viridiplantae

What do you think of my "rename and expand" proposal. I agree strongly with your concerns, but also think the current version doesn't really work as an article in its own right. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:50, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

San Francisco meetup at WMF headquarters

Hi Curtis Clark,

I just wanted to give you a heads-up about the next wiki-meetup happening in SF. It'll be located at our very own Wikimedia Foundation offices, and we'd love it if some local editors who are new to the meetup scene came and got some free lunch with us :) Please sign up on the meetup page if you're interested in attending, and I hope to see you soon! Maryana (WMF) (talk) 19:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Abutilon × hybridum

Since you mention the possibility of a different name for the Abutilon ×hybridum article ...

The old suspicion that Abutilon ×hybridum, inter alia, is not an Abutilon (that is not congeneric with Abutilon theophrastii has recently been confirmed. There is a paper in preparation introducing a new name for the relevant group (Abutilon sect. Pluriovulata and Bakeridesia subg. Dipteron); this was trailed at Botany 2011. When this is published we would have an alternative name (e.g. Callianthe hybrids, though that would be somewhat broader, but better defined, than Abutilon ×hybridum). There is a possibility that there is a pre-existing name with priority, but this remains to be investigated.

On the other hand horticulturalists are still referring to Abutilon vitifolium, while botanists moved it to Corynabutilon 40 or more years ago Lavateraguy (talk) 11:01, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Supports my contention that the subject is notable even if the name could be better.--Curtis Clark (talk) 05:12, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Template:Botanist

Hi Curtis, we talked a long time back about an inline version of the above - an idea which was quashed. Looking at it again it occurs to me that it could be greatly improved if e.g. 'The standard author abbreviation Brot. is used to indicate this individual as the author when citing a botanical name' were changed to e.g. 'The standard author abbreviation Brot. is used to indicate Félix Avelar Brotero as the author when citing a botanical name'. The name would be taken from the title of the article in the same manner that the template:commonscat does i.e. using the title as default if no name is provided. I think that the change would make the language less stilted, something that is certainly to be wished. Let me know what you feel. regards Paul venter (talk) 16:29, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

In general, I like the idea. You should probably raise it on the template talk page.--Curtis Clark (talk) 18:12, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, will do - hope it gets some response! Paul venter (talk) 18:37, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

It would seem that the discussion has come to an end. Would this be the appropriate time to suggest that as nobody was opposed to the idea, but only had reservations about the way a modified template would operate, that launching a test template might be a good idea? Paul venter (talk) 16:28, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree.--Curtis Clark (talk) 16:31, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

MoS

The solution at MoS you support will be used to force lowercaps on all bird articles. The argument that WP:RS use UpperCase for Bird Names is not accapted by the Caps Warriors, who bluntly state that generic style guides are more important than all the bird literature combined when it comes to caps or not. -- Kim van der Linde 03:25, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I have never been in favor of capitalizing common names. I am willing to admit that bird names are effectively proper nouns, because they equate more or less one-to-one with species. But that itself I find problematic, because the existence of these official "common" names causes the loss of actual vernacular names. And I would find it an especial travesty if an article capitalized truly vernacular plant names to maintain consistency with bird names: "The Northern Mockingbird perched in a California Bay before flying to a Weeping Birch."

That said, I've been willing to support the ornithologists, although I disagree with them. But the horse I do have in the race is referencing names (orthography and all) with reliable sources, and the offered solution would accomplish that.

I guess a sticking point for me is consistency. If bird names are proper nouns, and plant vernacular names aren't, there's no reason to enforce consistency. I could live with bird names being capitalized in running text in bird articles, but that would be the extent of it.--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:31, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I happen to be in favour of capitalizing English names of species (my spelling of "favour" may give a clue to why I differ from Curtis Clark; there are significant differences in the relative usage of the two styles between North Americans and elsewhere). But either way the argument that there is some difference between the English names of birds and the English names of other organisms is surely ridiculous. The Botanical Society of the British Isles has a list of standardized English names for British plants, which I would always want to use precisely as presented (as I do e.g. in the checklists I maintain for a National Nature Reserve). How can the status of these names be different to those of standardized bird names? Peter coxhead (talk) 10:27, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Aye, there's the rub. If it were only as simple as engvar! AOU bird names are demonstrably different from US plant names. There are factions in the US who want to standardize plant names, but fortunately (IMO) they are not well-organized. I probably seem overly dramatic when I talk about cultural imperialism, but we already have an international standardized set(s) of names, regulated by the ICN, ICZN, and other codes, and I've never seen the need to erect an English-language parallel system. My sympathies are entirely with documenting official and quasi-official English-language names from around the world, but IMO Misplaced Pages should have only one "official" system for internal use, that of binomials.

And I want to reaffirm that I'm talking about running prose. I support using the orthography of reliable sources in lists and article titles.--Curtis Clark (talk) 16:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

On both of these points I certainly agree. The British Mycological Society has recently published a set of English names for fungi; there was even a competition to invent them. Why on earth invent names for obscure species which no-one incapable of using a Latin name will ever be interested in? As a grumpy old man, I can only say that it's another all too common example of modern dumbing down, of trying to be populist in the hope of being more popular. If it could be agreed on, using the orthography of reliable sources in lists and article titles but lower case in running prose would be a very sensible compromise; sadly, I suspect that positions are too entrenched at present to get agreement on this. However, I'd completely forgotten that I originally came to your page for a different reason, which is now below. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:37, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Rejection of Cactus and conservation of Cactaceae

I've just been writing about this at Cactus#Taxonomy and classification. The sources I can access aren't very specialized as regards taxonomy, so I'd be grateful for an expert check of what I've written on this, if you have time. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:37, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

That sounds about right, but I'll need to dig up some of my Cactaceae literature (assuming I haven't given it all away) to check. The "unusual situation" is uncommon but not unique; iirc, Caryophyllum" is a nom. rej., leaving Caryophyllaceae in the same situation.--Curtis Clark (talk) 18:26, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I didn't know about Caryophyllaceae; from what you say it seems that "unusual" is ok as a description for Cactaceae, although the situation is not quite as unusual as I thought. What's not absolutely clear in my sources is the reason for the rejection of Cactus; they suggest it was because it had become used as both a genus and a family name. While it's doubtless true that non-botanical literature used "cactus" for the family, it surprises me that this would be thought relevant to a decision under the Code. If you do manage to dig anything up I'll be very interested. Thanks. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:41, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I rather suspect it's because Linnaeus used the name Cactus, which in Classical and Medieval Latin refers to the cardoon (Cynara cardunculus). This creates considerable confusion, and I have no idea at all why Linnaeus would have applied this longstanding name of a Mediterranean composite to the entirely dissimilar and unrelated New World Cactaceae. --EncycloPetey (talk) 03:41, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Iirc, one of his members of Cactus was likely a Melocactus species, which, with its fuzzy cephalium, vaguely resembles a cardoon capitulum. --Curtis Clark (talk) 03:48, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, that's a very interesting point (the resemblance between the Melocactus cephalium and the cardoon capitulum); none of the sources I've seen so far make this connection – they just connect the spikiness of cacti with the spikiness of the cardoon. It fits the history well. A species of the modern genus Melocactus is said to have been one of the first to arrive in Europe in the late 15th century (Anderson 2001:456). J. P. de Tournefort published Melocactus in 1719 (one of four genera apparently published before 1753); the derivation is melon (apple) + cactos, referring to the shape of the body. (Cactus melocactus L. is part of the modern Melocactus caroli-linnaei N.P.Taylor – another nice taxonomic point since if it had been an animal it would have been transferred to "Melocactus melocactus".) Linnaeus' Cactus is generally regarded as a shortening of Melocactus. If Curtis Clark's explanation of the name can be sourced it would be nice to add to the article.

The answer to why Cactus was rejected will be in the 1905 Vienna Rules, but they don't appear to be online, and at present I can't access a copy. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:13, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

It's hard for me to imagine that I'm the first person to make the connection, but I thought of it myself, and have never seen a reference. (I once independently derived the Hardy-Weinberg equation, and only at the end of the process realized why it looked so familiar.)--Curtis Clark (talk) 15:17, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I found a bit more on the history of the name which seems to me to strengthen your suggestion. Melocactus was apparently first called Echinomelocactus by de Tournefort, before being shortened. As echino refers to the spines and melo to the body shape, it's even more plausible that cactus refers to some other feature.

Now you need to publish a note somewhere, so we can source it and put it in Misplaced Pages... Peter coxhead (talk) 09:10, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

On the other hand, "spiny melon thistle" might only refer to a general resemblance. I looked at some cardoon heads on Commons, and the resemblance is vague enough that I'd want to find a reference from Linnaeus's era. Some Cirsium are a somewhat better match.--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Botany status

Please see Talk:Botany#Where_to_go_now. Thank you. 512bits (talk) 15:59, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Present

There is a present for you on my user page.512bits (talk) 02:18, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks!--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:14, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Science lovers wanted!

Science lovers wanted!

Hi! I'm serving as the wikipedian-in-residence at the Smithsonian Institution Archives until June! One of my goals as resident, is to work with Wikipedians and staff to improve content on Misplaced Pages about people who have collections held in the Archives - most of these are scientists who held roles within the Smithsonian and/or federal government. I thought you might like to participate since you are interested in the sciences! Sign up to participate here and dive into articles needing expansion and creation on our to-do list. Feel free to make a request for images or materials at the request page, and of course, if you share your successes at the outcomes page you will receive the SIA barnstar! Thanks for your interest, and I look forward to your participation! Sarah (talk) 01:06, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

pronunciation

Answered on my talk. You might want to review Taxonomic_rank#Terminations_of_names, which gives my attempt at pronunciation for all the regular endings (though I left out optional syllables). Presumably this one should be changed, but maybe others as well. — kwami (talk) 04:53, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Botany GA nom

I've nominated this for GA now. Big thanks to you for all your kind help.512bits (talk) 21:55, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Roscoea cautleoides or Roscoea cautleyoides

Thought I'd continue this thread here as it's not relevant to Cooksonia. Older sources all use R. cautleoides as the spelling (e.g. the Flora of China), and this is definitely the form used by Gagnepain (everyone accepts this). However, the IPNI and the World Checklist of Selected Plant Families (WCSP) don't even have the name R. cautleoides, if you search them. Although The Plant List does find some infraspecific taxa under R. cautleoides, it gives the names as synonyms of R. cautleyoides. So I decided to use Roscoea cautleyoides as the article title, because this seemed to be the most recent usage, although all the older sources use the spelling without a "y". I then looked for a reason, and the only one I could find online was that Cautlea was invalid and should be Cautleya.

I didn't know what spelling Jill Cowley's 2007 monograph The Genus Roscoea used, as I've never seen the book; she used cautleoides in her earlier papers. This morning I found a review of the book here. It says "Cowley correctly uses the spelling cautleyoides (the name honours Sir Proby Thomas Cautley, ..." However, it seems to me that the -oides ending makes it clear that the name cautleoides doesn't of itself honour Cautley; it says that the species is related to the taxon Gagnepain knew as Cautlea, so this argument isn't relevant. Where does the ICBN/ICN justify changing the orthography of names using -oides?

Anyway, right or wrong, cautleyoides is the spelling now firmly established in the recent literature. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:58, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

ICBN (I don't know about the ICN) "60.1. The original spelling of a name or epithet is to be retained, except for the correction of typographical or orthographical errors and the standardizations imposed by Art. 60.5 (u/v or i/j used interchangeably), 60.6 (diacritical signs and ligatures), 60.8 (compounding forms), 60.9 (hyphens), 60.10 (apostrophes), 60.11 (terminations; see also Art. 32.7), and 60.12 (fungal epithets)." I can see no justification for regarding cautleoides as an orthographic error, so the only justification for changing it would be that it is a typographic error. And "60.3. The liberty of correcting a name is to be used with reserve...", with the example being especially telling: '* Ex. 7. The spelling of the generic name Lespedeza Michx. (1803) is not to be altered, although it commemorates Vicente Manuel de Céspedes (see Rhodora 36: 130-132, 390-392. 1934). - Cereus jamacaru DC. (1828) may not be altered to C. "mandacaru", even if jamacaru is believed to be a corruption of the vernacular name "mandacaru".'

I've done a lot of work with Eschscholzia; for about the first 100 years, people wanted to correct it to Eschscholtzia, since in the Latin alphabet his name was most often spelled Eschscholtz. But the Cyrillic spelling Эшшольц can be, and was, transliterated in other ways (one modern way would be Eshshol'ts), and so there was no clear evidence of it being a typographic error, and once the code became explicit (iirc the 1905 Vienna Code), people switched back to the original spelling.

But the issue is that if "authoritative" sources (especially IPNI) inappropriately correct names, it will take someone in publication slapping them in the face to get them to change it (and maybe not even then). The bacteriologists went for names in current use and avoided all that, but botanists are going for a de facto names in current use by accepting wrong names in compiled sources.--Curtis Clark (talk) 02:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

And it turns out my concern about Ehrendorferia was misplaced (I thought it should be Ehrendorfera):

Recommendation 60B
60B.1. When a new generic name, or epithet of a subdivision of a genus, is taken from the name of a person, it should be formed as follows:When the name of the person ends with a consonant, the letters -ia are added, but when the name ends with -er, either of the terminations -ia and -a is appropriate (e.g. Sesleria after Sesler and Kernera after Kerner).

So I won't be writing that paper for Taxon after all.--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:01, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I think that this recommendation (i.e. optionally allowing -i- after -er) must be relatively new. The older guides to botanical Latin I have are firm that the -i- is incorrect, and I recall alpine enthusiasts insisting on Saxifraga burserana not S. burseriana. But this seems to be a dead cause. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:01, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

There's no option for species:

'60C.1. When personal names are given Latin terminations in order to form specific and infraspecific epithets formation of those epithets is as follows (but see Rec. 60C.2): If the personal name ends with a vowel or -er, substantival epithets are formed by adding the genitive inflection appropriate to the sex and number of the person(s) honoured (e.g., scopoli-i for Scopoli (m), fedtschenko-i for Fedtschenko (m), fedtschenko-ae for Fedtschenko (f), glaziou-i for Glaziou (m), lace-ae for Lace (f), gray-i for Gray (m), hooker-orum for the Hookers (m)), except when the name ends with -a, in which case adding -e (singular) or -rum (plural) is appropriate (e.g. triana-e for Triana (m), pojarkova-e for Pojarkova (f), orlovskaja-e for Orlovskaja (f)).'

Dan Nicholson in an article in Taxon years ago made a case that names commemorating women should not have the -i- in any case, since Latin classically treated female names differently, but his recommendation never seemed to catch on:

'If the personal name ends with a consonant (except -er), substantival epithets are formed by adding -i- (stem augmentation) plus the genitive inflection appropriate to the sex and number of the person(s) honoured (e.g. lecard-ii for Lecard (m), wilson-iae for Wilson (f), verlot-iorum for the Verlot brothers, braun-iarum for the Braun sisters, mason-iorum for Mason, father and daughter).'

--Curtis Clark (talk) 15:28, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

(1) However, in spite of 60C.1, S. burseriana is now the norm (IPNI only has this spelling). However, 60C.1 doesn't cover the addition of -ana to a personal name, so perhaps this case isn't covered.

(2) In the light of your comments, I e-mailed IPNI and WCSP asking why cautleoides had been changed to cautleyoides and whether there was a publication supporting this change. I set out a version of the reasons both you and I gave above as to why it should not be changed. To my astonishment, IPNI (in the person of their "Sr. Nomenclatural Registrar") replied today (Sunday!) saying that someone else had raised the same issue (was it you?) and that they would immediately change their entry. So as of right now, IPNI has cautleoides and WCSP has cautleyoides. Which of course means that I need to change Roscoea cautleyoides. I hope this doesn't count as OR on our part. :-) Peter coxhead (talk) 22:33, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Woohoo! No, it wasn't me. Congratulations on getting it fixed! The problem with burseriana is that it's governed by a recommendation, not an article, and 60.3, which is an article, cautions against changes. If it were burseriana in the original protologue, I can't see how it could be realistically changed, but if it were burserana, changing it goes against both an article and a recommendation.--Curtis Clark (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

The plot thickens! Rafaël Govaerts from the Kew WCSP says that the correction to "cautleyoides" is right. His e-mail to me argues as follows:

Gagnepain says he names the new species for the genus "Cautlea", however this is an orthographic variant of Caulteya (named after Cautley Art. 60.11) and as Art. 61.4 says "Whenever such a variant appears in print, it is to be treated as if it were printed in its correct form". In other words Gagnepain writes that he named it after "Cautleya", therefore the epithet needs to be corrected as well. Do remember that only one orthographic variant is valid (Cautleya, Art. 61.1) and invalid names do not exist (for the nomenclatural purposes Art. 12.1). The most common such case is all Buddleia that need to be changed to "Buddlej..." as IPNI did.

So as of right now, IPNI has "cautleoides" and WCSP has "cautleyoides". I've pointed this out to them both, so we'll see who prevails. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:43, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

So it all hinges on Gagnepain's statement that he named it for Cautleya. Effectively what Govaerts is saying is that an orthographic correction of a generic name applies retroactively to all species (and I assume other ranks as well) explicitly named after it. I can accept that (indeed I find no fault in reading the rules that way), but it sure opens up a can of worms.--Curtis Clark (talk) 18:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, I've read the original Gagnepain source (it's scanned somewhere I can't find at present) and it's clear that he named it after what was at that time called either the genus "Cautlea" or the section "Cautlea" of Roscoea. But this name was not based on a valid publication, and when the name was later established it was spelt "Cautleya". So if you accept that all orthographic corrections apply retroactively however they have been used (whether to form specific epithets, family names, or whatever), then it should indeed be Roscoea cautleyoides. But as you say, it opens up a can of worms. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:09, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Invitation

	Great American Wikinic at Pan-Pacific Park
	You are invited to the second Great American Wikinic taking place in Pan-Pacific Park, in Los Angeles, on Saturday, June 23, 2012! Last year's was a blast (see the LA Weekly blog post on it) and we hope we can do better this year. We would love to have you there! —howcheng {chat} 19:56, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
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