Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Samuell (talk | contribs) at 21:37, 31 March 2008 (Revert to revision 199953362 dated 2008-03-22 00:00:54 by 87.219.85.149 using popups). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Important notice: This page is solely for constructive discussion of how best to deal with the naming of the Republic of Macedonia, within Misplaced Pages talkpage guidelines. If you have come here to solely to protest against the current naming, please don't post here. Such objections have been raised before, and been given our consideration. A summary of the current consensus regarding the naming of entities called "Macedonia" or "Macedonian" can be found at Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (Macedonia-related articles). Suggestions are expected to be informed by Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, in particular Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict and Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions. Suggestions for an adaptation of standing guidelines are offtopic on this page and belong on Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conflict or Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy).

falsification of History

This article about the "republic of Macedonia" contains misleading information and inappropriate content. Under UN agreement in no way should any document state the F.Y.R.O.M. under the name of Macedonia of Republic of Macedonia. This article should be put under the F.Y.R.O.M. one and should be protected. I am inclined to believe that Misplaced Pages will act accordingly to best of everybody's interest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deafakos (talk • contribs) 11:08, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not answer to the UN, nor any other body. We make distinctions for article based on our own evaluations, it appears that the common English name Republic of Macedonia, or just simply Macedonia. This is also what the country calls it self. This article is not the first, nor the last name dispute, but in this case, if you look t the pages archives you will find that you are only one of hundreds of people who complained, we've been over this before. If we changed the name to FYROM, the people in Skopje would be just as offended as the Greeks. The horse is dead, stop flogging it. Samuell Lift me up or put me down 04:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

SO you believe it is better to abuse it than change it to something mutually accepted... This is a pretty "undemocratic" way of thinking... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.190.34 (talk) 11:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I doubt Samuell is an official Misplaced Pages admin... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.103.139.110 (talk) 18:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The fact is, the name FYROM is not mutually accepted, otherwise the country would call itself that. Misplaced Pages is not a democracy we work by consensus and discussion, not voting. And being an admin just gives you a few technical features such as deleting and protecting pages, it doesn't make you a spokesperson or give you much authority. The policies that support what I said before can be found here and here.Samuell Lift me up or put me down 20:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

You are contadicting youself here. How can you reach a consensus without democratic processes and no voting? There is no consensus without measuring the "consensus". If someone reports something ABUSIVE about you and this person claimed that it was true then what would you do? Naming FYROM as Republic of Macedonia is abusive to Greeks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deafakos (talk • contribs) 01:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

And naming Macedonia FYROM is abusive to Macedonians.Silvery Swirls (talk) 15:20, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Fyrom is not on macedon soil its in Dardani and Paeonian soil.Megistias (talk) 15:23, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Why doesn't FYROM call itself Vardarska or Paeonia? Would it offend them? Is it more fair to take a nation's history (I'm referring to Greece) and call it your own? What kind of justice is this?79.130.177.215 (talk) 12:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Move to F.Y.R.O.M

Can someone please move this whole page and all of its detial into Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia because that is exactly what it is. That is how the UN recognizes it and besides, Macedonia as a place is much bigger in Greece to where it culturally belongs. We can't go ignoring UN policy and more countries recognize FYROM including all of the improtant lands: Western and Central Europe etc. One more thing, Alexander the Great was not FYROM-Macedonian because he lived years before the Slavs came along. Antun Gustav (talk) 11:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not answer to the UN or any other organization or country. The country calls itself Republic of Macedonia so that is the more common English name (and probably the most neutral). The horse is dead, stop flogging it. Samuell Lift me up or put me down 22:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Obviously it should be referred as FYROM simply as that's how UN recognizes -and they themselves accept it that way- and UN is the ultimate place for any de-jure recognition of any state (along with name etc).I mean that's start up things for anyone involved in politics and international law.Otherwise we could name ourselves Republic of Apache and claim billions of dollars for Apache genocide by settlers.Or the Hustler's Republic and hustle anyone within our territory.I mean there is a law you know and UN are the ultimate judge on this law. BTW how ROM is the most "neutral" name.Hhaha lol Eagle of Pontus (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Ahahahahahahahahhaahahhahahaha. BalkanFever 02:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

And I lough upon you, troll. Stop insulting us. 87.221.4.107 (talk) 23:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Going with that line of reasoning, there should not be an article named Taiwan at all since Taiwan is not recognized by the UN. As Samuell said it, stop trying to beat a dead horse. I think this issue has been discussed over and over with everyone trying to push their favorite POV.--Ubardak (talk) 02:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. The archives of this article, the archives of Macedonia naming dispute, the archives of Macedonian language and the archives of Macedonians (ethnic group), among others, all mention this. BalkanFever 02:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It is obvious that the name of this article is another proof of the many cases where Greeks can get away with murder in Misplaced Pages...--   Avg    02:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Fute can be so very entertaining when he wants to, can't he? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 07:52, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It should not be called FYROM because the UN recognizes it as that. It should also not be called RoMacedonia because YES THERE ARE SOME RESERVED WORDS FOR COUNTRY NAMES. It should be called RoMacedonia (formerly FYROM), pendig naming issue. 79.103.155.16 (talk) 22:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Government of Republic of Macedonia never signs any documents with a name different than the constitutional. For example see this and "I consider this Exchange of Letters as the equivalent of signature." wording. --Kirev (talk) 15:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

A pity that its constitutional name is a big lie that will never exist, as Macedonia is Greek my friend. Vardarska is how they should sign. Good game. 87.221.4.107 (talk) 23:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• I think Ubardak you must reevaluate your knowledge.FYROM accepted entrance and is accepted as such in UN.RO Taiwan didn't.Don't you see a Pacific ocean of difference;;;;For Christ shake. Eagle of Pontus

Maybe you should reevaluate your knowledge. The Republic of Macedonia did not change its name, it just allowed the UN to use a provisional reference. You don't actually care though, you're just "offended" by the "misuse" of the name Macedonia, and in regards to what you think, no-one cares. BalkanFever 09:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

And I think that maybe it is you who should reevaluate his knowledge, huh? Republic of Macedonia is an illegal name that claims upon Greek history and upon Greek territory. It is about you Skopjans, that no one cares. We had enough of your propaganda. You know what we say is true, it is in every history book, but you insist on usurping recklessly our identity. We really really had enough Yugoslavians. STOP your anti-Greek POV and your propaganda. The world has had enough of your lies. 87.221.4.107 (talk) 23:16, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• To User BalkanFever and all BalkanFevers: Yes we do care. If Skopje would like to be called Macedonia, this is fine. We,Greeks have no problem as soon as it pays taxes.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Magicheader (talk • contribs) 06:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you should have asked :). BalkanFever 07:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Your country is all bought by the National Bank of Greece. All what you have about industry is Greek. All the food you eat is coming from Greece. You dare bite the hand of who feeds you? You obviously have neither morale nor dignity. The lies of Skopje have been so many and so long that they contradict themselves... 87.221.4.107 (talk) 23:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Please kickbankill BalkanFever for trolling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.97.51.67 (talk) 14:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Until the naming dispute is solved FYROM is the generaly accepted name. Only the US recognised Scopje with its constitutional name. Because of that they should be ignored (the US) by the general public. Their opinion (because is only an opinion) shouldn't be taken into account seriously... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stamatisg (talk • contribs) 22:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Please, rename to the United Nations form at once. 213.97.51.67 (talk) 14:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

"Republic of Macedonia" is total anti-Greek POV and fully Skopjan nationalist POV. Please, rename the article to FYROM as stated by the United Nations and stop trolling and vandalizing the page with your nationalist POV. 87.219.84.68 (talk) 00:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree, if Misplaced Pages and the administrators believe they are objective then I strongly recommend that they don't allow propaganda and nationalism in this site79.130.177.215 (talk) 12:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree as well. Move to FYROM already. Stop telling lies to people! Macedonia is Greek. Yugoslavia is no more. Wake up! Our national bank of Greece has bought all your land, so "all your base are belong to us"... So owned! 87.221.4.107 (talk) 23:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The above users are becoming a bit tiresome with their repetitive racist attacks. In their view, everybody who doesn't share their opinion should be banned and it should be a crime to call Macedonia Macedonia. I suggest some administrator look into the behaviour of some of these users, as they are repeatedly attacking other users alongside their racist attacks directed towards Macedonia.JdeJ (talk) 23:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The above user, JdeJ has clearly shown his biased, anti-Greek opinion and has used psycho logic attacks like warnings on the user pages and attempts

of censorship and has used censorship on Greek users. He is becoming annoying with his obstinacy and his will to harm Greeks. I suggest some administrator look into the behavior of this user together with all others that have posted anti-Greek comments, as they are repeatedly attacking Greek users alongside their propaganda, lies and insults such as the above, calling them racists. It is a real proof that Macedonia is Greek and that FYROMians are trying to usurp Greek history and territory, and he is the kind of person that supports such terrorist acts. 87.221.4.107 (talk) 00:08, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, I try to uphold the Misplaced Pages policies of WP:MOSMAC and ]. While that include edits that the now-blocked user above dislike, they also include opposite edits , . And I strongly object to calling "Greeks" racist, I never generalise about any nationality. I've only called the user above racist, and his edit history proves me right. JdeJ (talk) 08:42, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I have to disagree with you JdeJ. It is historical fact that Skopjans helped the Nazis and Greeks fought against them. Minorities on each sides always existed doing the opposite, but that was not the official move by each government. On the other hand, you have to understand how delicate it is for Greeks to have their history and territory taken over by the Salvs-Skopjans and that it is pretty logical that if 'Republic of Macedonia' is being used, it is first in favor of one group, and second a defiance on the United Nations naming convention. On the other hand, I see that no one of your so called racist-Greeks and POV posters has ever claimed the article to be renamed to 'Republic of Skopje', which is how all Greeks call the country and urge everyone to call it. Instead of that, all the Greeks that have talked here, have asked to take the neutral approach 'FYROM', which could keep both sides partially content. In other words, Skopjans want 'Republic of Macedonia' which is unbalanced. Greeks would prefer 'Republic of Skopje', but are tolerant and willingful to a peaceful end and would allow the use of 'FYROM', even though they still do not like it. In conclussion, using FYROM would be the best choice to keep this article neutral and stop this bitter and endless fight. Otherwise, I am pretty sure more Greeks shall follow claiming that Misplaced Pages is biased, unobjective and illegal, as it is proving through these moments, where the administrators are favoring one side and defying the United Nations. 87.219.85.149 (talk) 20:25, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Why lowercase 'former'?

Why should 'former' be spelled without capitals? I'm just curious. diego_pmc (talk) 23:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

See Macedonia naming dispute#Compromise solutions and look for the bullet points about two thirds of the way through that section - they explain why. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Nationalism in Misplaced Pages

Thank you for letting me speak here. I have posted again and it appears that somebody deleted my post but nonetheless, I believe it's the right of everyone to post their ideas. I think that we all are hiding behind our bare fingers, trying to persuade the world that Vardarska is in fact the nation of Macedonia. This nation is the making of Tito and the independence of Vardarska in the early 1990s. What I see that makes me utterly disappointed is the very fact that nationalists and fanatics have the control of this article and don't allow different opinions to be heard. By all means I could call my house the independent, ethnic state of London, New York, Alsace or Rome.

According to the same logic, I can say that it was my fathers that forged the British Empire, my fathers that made the USA or claim that I'm an ethnic Alsacian (We all know that this territory contains german and french populace) or even claim that the Roman Empire was my ethnic territory and claim it through propaganda.

Tell me: Would this appeal to any of you? Would this get this encyclopedia any further? Would extreme nationalism and propaganda benefit any of us? Since I started visiting this site I believed that it was objective and that it was in fact a site that checks all information, and by that I mean historical sources and not proclaimations of people. Why would the Skopians feel offended if they were to be called with their true name? Slavomacedonians or Vardar Macedonians would sound offensive? But wouldn't it be more offensive for the regions of Macedonia in Bulgaria and Greece to have an actual state being called with their name? I haven't seen such problems rise between Bulgaria and Greece since the Balkan Wars and WW2.

To conclude, I speak as an objective person that sees Greece and Bulgaria more offended than the Skopians themselves. What I see is a direct violation of history, political protocols and above all, national heritage. If the Skopians direly want to be called with the name "Macedonia" the only thing they need to consider is paying taxes to Greece.

I believe that as many of you claim that this site is objective you will allow this post to be read by visitors. Truly yours79.130.177.215 (talk) 12:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The Economist mentions this bitter name dispute on their magazine

About the Macedonia name conflict, The Economist wrote:

"If the Olympic games featured an event that measured stubborness and prejudice, the partisans from the Misplaced Pages talk page dealing with the name wrangle could form a world-class joint team."

Link to the article: http://www.economist.com/daily/columns/europeview/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10879850

Very funny! LOL Good job people, you are an Olympic team!!!!⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 19:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Yay! BalkanFever 23:49, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

A shame on us... The worse thing is that the trolling and fighting from both sides continued in the comments of the article of the economist. Can both sides relax a little? I'm pretty sure we'll have a final solution on the name issue very soon. 87.219.85.149 (talk) 00:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Adding that FYROM does not claim Greek history and territory

I think that in order to calm down things a little bit, it would be wise to add to the article the declarations of the Skopjan President and his ministers, stating that:

1) They do not want to claim any ancient Greek history related to the ancient Macedonia and Alexander the Great.

2) They do not have any territorial claims on Greece and that their constitution clearly forbids it.

3) That they know they are slavs that have nothing to do with the ancient Macedonia and have made clear that everything that was attacking Greek history or territory was spread by propagandistic irredentists who have no official nor legal power to do so.

NOTE: I'm trying to be productive here. If you find any other text that could be added so that fellow Greek users will calm down, go ahead. Goodwill is always welcome.
87.219.85.149 (talk) 20:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)