This is an old revision of this page, as edited by GoRight (talk | contribs) at 21:06, 13 November 2007 (→Pielke jr. and sr.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

An Inconvenient Truth

Elhector has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Wow, that talk page is a warzone :-P Elhector 23:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:3RR

Hi GoRight! As far as I can tell, you have either already violated Misplaced Pages's 3 revert rule, or are very close to a violation on An Inconvenient Truth. The rule is intended to limit unproductive reversions by restricting editors to no more than 3 reverts per article per 24 hours, where a "revert" is defined broadly as any edit that at least partially undoes another editors work. In particular, a revert for this rule does not have to restore an older version, and reverts that undo different edits still count towards the limit. If you did not already do so, please read this rule and abide by it - preferably in letter and in spirit. Thanks! --Stephan Schulz 21:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Blocked

You've made at least 4 reverts in the past few hours (, , , , and a partial revert here which undid part of the prior edit). You express familiarity with WP:3RR here. It should be clear that there is no consensus supporting your proposed changes; please discuss them on the talk page after the block expires rather than continuing to reinsert them. MastCell 22:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

GoRight (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

I do not believe that my edits constitute reverts in the sense intended by WP:3RR. In each case I actively provided commentary in the discussion page concerning my rational for the changes thus demonstrating my willingness to cooperate with the community. Also, a close inspection of my edits will reveal that I was, in fact, making alternate wordings in an attempt to accommodate the views of others while still presenting the material I feel was relevant to the article. In addition, all of my material was clearly sourced and as such should be allowed in the article. If my interpretation above is incorrect, please clarify what actually constitutes a revert under WP:3R. Does changing the wording to accommodate the views of other editors also constitute a reversion? Is merely touching a given section of text considered a revert? For example, the item you list as a partial revert is did not restore any of the original content at all but was merely a new edit.

Decline reason:

The idea behind 3RR is to prevent people from repeated edits that make the same point or convey the same information. I have reviewed your edits and you repeatedly inserted references to anthropogenic leanings. Please be more careful and if you find yourself inserting or deleting similar language repeatedly, go to the talk page and discuss it there first.

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

-- But|seriously|folks  05:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The Zen Garden Award

		Zen Garden Award for Infinite Patience
		I award this to GoRight for the infinite patience he has shown while attempting to improve the An Inconvenient Truth article and also for having to deal with the above ban because of his efforts. Elhector 23:39, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You can move this award to your main user page or wherever else you like :-) Elhector 23:39, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate it. I haven't given up on the AIT page but have been focusing on other topics for a while. --GoRight 01:49, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Smoke and some sort of fire

There are traces of Singer's fire which others aren't willing to examine. I'm not in a hurry so it will take several days for the address of the info to reach me, then I'll probably have the search space reduced by 98%. (SEWilco 03:24, 10 November 2007 (UTC))

wp:3rr again

looks like you close to breaking the rule again if you not done so already so watch it on the article An Inconvenient TruthOo7565 18:41, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I have been careful about which sections I am touching. I am done for now anyway. --GoRight 18:50, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again, a second look on my part indicated that I had erred so I self-reverted. --GoRight 19:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

If I may... it seems there's an ongoing problem here. It was good of you to self-revert, but the underlying issue appears to be that you're making changes without consensus and thus being reverted by a number of different users. The point of WP:3RR is not to wait for 24 hours to expire and then keep going; it's to discuss these changes on the talk page before repeatedly re-inserting them. You will find peope willing to engage in dialog; if you hit a roadblock, you can always ask for a third opinion, request for comment, or mediation. But please consider holding off on repeatedly reverting without gaining some sort of consensus for your proposed changes, which appear quite controversial. MastCell 20:05, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I understand your point, however there are frequently some users who simply refuse to acknowledge valid points and thus use the discussion pages as a means of stonewalling any changes. If you actually take the time to read my comments on AIT I do try to compromise. I do attempt alternatives. But if even one user is determined not to let my change in I am totally blocked, and unfairly so.

I am following the rules. I am providing valid references from legitimate sources. Now given the subject matter sure there are people who won't agree with my perspective, in some cases you even seem to be one given your comment above. This is fine. We worked through the Singer page updates, right? But I had my comment on the WP:BLP/N regarding the Newsweek source for quite some time before I made my changes to force some action. I think that I would still be waiting for a reply on that point if I had not "boldly made the changes". How am I supposed to know that consensus has been reached when I get stonewalling silence in return to my points on the talk pages?

You were adamant that the Newsweek and Monbiot quotes were properly source and thus should not be deleted. No consensus had been reached there. I had not agreed. So now let us consider the edit that I self reverted. It has been discussed days ago. I have outstanding commentary in the talk page. The quote is from a notable commentator on Fox News. I was respecting the previous complaints of undue weight by replacing the AAAS quote (which was my addition in the first place) as well as a previous complaint regarding the AAAS article requiring a (free) subscription to read.

But after a couple of days of discussion and with other users supporting me my change is still stonewalled off the page with you talking about I need to reach consensus like I never even tried to do so. In my interaction with you you simply reverted my edits without so much as a howdy and I didn't feel we had a consensus over on the WP:BLP page. You simply instituted your favored option, but somehow I am at fault for doing the same? Will you now argue as fervently that properly attributed criticism should be allowed in on the AIT page as you did on the Singer page?

The quote itself should not even be that controversial. The only reason they object is because it is from someone they don't like. It is being censored not because it doesn't meet the criteria for inclusion but because they don't like the person who wrote it. Do I get that same veto power? No. So why do they?

I have a real problem with the way RealClimate is being used in this context. It is like wikipedia is their personal soapbox which allows them to use their scientific credentials to vanquish dissent on anything GW related, even on things that are NOT related to the science involved like their speculating on the ExxonMobil funding. They have no more credibility to speak about what funding arrangements ExxonMobil had with NSTA that the man in the moon. Yet they are climate scientists so we must all bow before them? I don't think so.

As you are no doubt aware (since you seem to be "watching" over me) I have taken that particular case to WP:BLP. Is this not exactly what you are suggesting? Getting independent help on the issue? Am I being beligerent in this respect? No. Go read my post there. I make it quite clear that I don't want to take sides and I don't want to single any specific group out, but that I have some concerns and here are some real world examples. Go read William Connolley's page and my discussion there. There may be a pointy stick or two but the substantive parts are very reasonable and well intentioned as I discuss there.

If I sound like I am venting it is because I am. Don't take it as an attack. I appreciate your taking the time to offer advice.

--GoRight 20:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree with the above. I also fought a long battle to change 1 word in that article a while back. The change wouldn't have really been a big deal, it only would have corrected a portion of the article to sound more NPOV and less like an attack on a group of people. I was stonewalled from the get go on that change without anyone providing a valid reason against the change. All reasons given fell along the lines of "I just don't like it". After some back and forth the change just kept getting reverted without any comment or discussion. I complained and was basically told that if i propose a change on a talk page and no one comments on it after 2 weeks that it's still not acceptable to make the change because "no consensus" was given for the change. Basicallly it's gotten to the point where if you be bold and just make an edit it will be reverted. What is worse is if you try to propose the change on the talk page your proposal will be flat ignored. After several weeks have been given for comments and suggestions to be made and you decide to make the edit because there is the appearance that no one cares or disagrees with the proposed change it just gets reverted without discussion. What it boils down to is that in a lot of articles (and An Inconvenient Truth is a prime example of this) there are groups of entrenched editors that have taken up ownership of articles and basically now have a pocket veto power over any proposed changes that they don't like or go against any preconceived notions that they may have. Given that the above is happening I would love for someone to come up with a way to get around this. Perhaps MastCell has a suggestion? Elhector 21:44, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not watching over you, but your talk page is still on my watchlist from the 3RR block and I noticed the above discussion. I'm happy to remove your page from my watchlist and not comment further if you don't feel it's likely to be productive, though - I'm not trying to harass you. I think you're editing in good faith, or I wouldn't even bother to mention it. I don't think you've ever been "belligerent"; in fact, I've been impressed with your civility, given how contentious global-warming articles can be.

I understand your concern about the fact that one stubborn user can stall change on an article. In fact, I've run up against this myself. But from an (admittedly somewhat cursory) glance at the page history at An Inconvenient Truth, it appeared you were not being reverted by one stubborn user, but by a number of users with real, good-faith concerns about your edits.

I think you're right to be bold and make a change first - no one needs to get, or give, proactive "approval" to make an edit. It's hard to know, in most cases, whether anyone will disagree with an edit until you make it. However, if the edit is reverted, then it starts to become incumbent to get some kind of discussion going and try to achieve consensus. This is summed up in WP:BRD, which is an essay but a pretty useful one. Mind you, I don't claim to be perfect in this regard - but I got the sense that even after being reverted by several users, you were a) engaging in discussion, which is great, and b) continuing to revert to your preferred version, which is not so great. That's all. If I've oversimplified the situation, then I apologize.

I don't feel that I simply instated "my favored version" of the Singer page - there were real BLP concerns which were addressed, including those of User:ATren. There was a feeling that ExxonSecrets was not a useful source from a BLP perspective, which I don't fully agree with in this context but can accept. There was a request for more and better sources, and we used the Newsweek article, which seemed more satisfactory to everyone than the prior sourcing. It seemed to me that User:ATren's concerns were addressed, and it seemed at least initially that yours had been as well, though apparently I was mistaken there.

How, and whether, to cite RealClimate or Steven Milloy at AIT is a thorny issue and one which I don't feel like getting involved in at the moment. I do think, however, that edit-warring over the material is a mistake and in the end is not going to accomplish what you want it to. That was the point of my note above, to steer you in other directions - again, based on a fairly quick skim of the page history at AIT, so apologies if I've misinterpreted. MastCell 21:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I was venting as I mentioned above, so no problem. I don't mind your offering advice, it is appreciated (even if it doesn't sound like it from the vent above). I don't blame you for avoiding the RC/Milloy discussions. Maybe I am more partisan that I think, but I honestly am only seeking to have both sides fairly represented in this debate. Cheers. --GoRight 21:33, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

While I hate to prolong a discussion like this on a user talk page, I feel it's worth noting that GoRight is being railroaded here. Some Pro-AGW editors (I don't want to name names) simply revert edits they don't like but refuse to discuss their reasoning on talk pages. AIT is a perfect example of this. So what seems like a number of editors relying on consensus is actually at times a handful of editors refusing to listen to the other side and just attempting to bully the edits away. I can reinstate GoRight's edits at times but I choose not to get in edit wars and rather I discuss things on the talk page. The fact that a few people are reverting his edits rather than one doesn't mean those few are in the right. Oren0 22:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

No, of course it doesn't. But it does mean that continuing to reinsert the material isn't going to be effective. That's all I was getting at. MastCell 00:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Reinserting it won't be effective but continually reverting it will be effective. Yeah, that's balanced... Elhector 02:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Pielke jr. and sr.

Hi GR! I get the impression that you are not aware about the difference between Roger A. Pielke (sr), who is an accomplished meterologist with a nuanced opinion about climate change (roughly "CO2 is a major part of global warming, but there are other aspects, we don't understand all the procesesses, and anyways, local effects are much more important and much or influenced by other anthropogenic factors") and Roger A. Pielke (Jr), his son, a political scientists who mostly agrees with the science of the IPCC, but is sceptical about mitigation. --Stephan Schulz 19:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I was aware that there was a jr. and a sr. but I never had occasion to dig further than that. I was mostly familiar with Pielke Jr. from the CIRES website. Now that you point out the distinction and rereading the description for the CIRES website, my faux pas on the AIT talk page is obvious. I assume that when WC was arguing to keep Pielke off the list of skeptics he was actually discussing sr? Would that be correct? --GoRight 21:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)