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Why are we citing First Things so much?

I get impression that First Things has inherited the mantle of Erik Kain in the draft article. According to the ref list is now up to five citations. Is it because of the novelty of a conservative view being expressed in a reliable source? --TS 03:49, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• If it's a reliable source, then what's the problem? The New Yorker is cited at least six times, The Washington Post at least eight, New York at least five, Vox at least seven, Columbia Journalism Review at least eight. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 04:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The article is a first-person opinion column, not a news story, and must be cited as such. I write not because I am a Gamergate partisan—the movement was largely over by the time I had thoroughly investigated it—but because Mary Eberstadt is right: silence emboldens the practitioners of the New Intolerance. Gamergate was not a perfect movement, and neither was the loose coalition of conservatives, libertarians, and contrarians who opposed the social justice incursions into science fiction. But someone ought to speak out. If we wait for a perfect victim to emerge, we will be waiting forever. It's an interesting and useful source for a contrary opinion to the predominant one, but must be presented as such. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:17, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I've no problem with it being cited, but I worry that we often fall for a kind of recentism, picking up a novel article and giving it rather more weight than it can bear. The article suffers in such circumstances because one voice is being repeatedly juxtaposed to many others, in a way that gives it presentation false balance. It's a bit like altering our article on global warning to insert at length, and repeatedly, the views of the tiny minority of scientists who reject the well established greenhouse effect. --TS 04:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• The greenhouse effect is a scientific phenomenon. GamerGate is a huge mess. Now, on your "tiny minority" argument, if you'd look at the Misogyny and antifeminism section, we quote over ten sources (including The Washington Post / The Week / Iowa Public Radio / Macleans / Develop / GamesIndustry.biz / On the Media / The Daily Beast / Mother Jones / The New Yorker) who express an anti-GG POV, and you're protesting against one source (perhaps the only one) which provides a dissenting POV? You'd rather have 10-0 versus 10-1, that's balance to you? starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 05:22, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

When talking about weight in articles, we don't just talk about how many sources are used, but how frequently these sources are cited and to what extent Misplaced Pages uses these to display information. I believe Tony Sidaway is talking about how frequently the source is cited, not just it being cited (which he seems to not mind.) PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

As I have pointed out above in my first comment, there are at least four more sources which have been cited more than First Things. Upon further reading, the New York Times has been cited seven times in the article, the Verge eight... get my point? starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 06:48, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Those sources should be cited more, as they have each written multiple articles discussing the issue which represent the predominant, mainstream point of view on the issue. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:44, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

But this is a social issue, not a scientific one. There are multiple ways of interpreting a social issue; there is no need to double down on a single standpoint, especially when one of your principal sources is The Verge, which is a tech blog, not a journal of American society. Shii (tock) 12:04, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The Verge is far more widely read and more respected journalistically than First Things, an explicitly-religious, socially and politically conservative journal. Moreover, there aren't multiple ways of interpreting false allegations about living people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Shii (tock) 16:56, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Our article on First Things helpfully describes them. The journal is inter-denominational and inter-religious, representing a broad intellectual tradition of Christian and Jewish critique of contemporary society. With a circulation of approximately 30,000 subscribers, First Things is considered to be influential in its articulation of a broadly ecumenical and erudite social and political conservatism. Meanwhile, The Verge nets at least 20 million unique visitors per month, as of last March, and is almost certainly higher today.

I happen to think First Things is well-written and generally well-argued. But there can be no argument that it's anything but a platform for primarily conservative religious and social views. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:59, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Is there something bad about expressing conservative religious views, that makes them not notable or relevant to American social upheaval? In the lead to that same article, we have a Newsweek quote calling First Things "the most important vehicle for exploring the tangled web of religion and society in the English-speaking world." I would argue that a religious outlook on social issues is more relevant than The Verge which is basically an industry and product review blog. How exactly do we determine who the most relevant voices are in American society? Shii (tock) 17:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The entire article reeks of recentism, and from one side of the discussion as well. There are more sources like First Things out there, we'd be smarter to find more like it than complain about reliable sources that are more accurate than the ones we currently use. Thargor Orlando (talk) 12:37, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

It does not "reek" of one side of the discussion. The "discussion", such as it is, is the general public looking at gamergate and being rightfully thoroughly appalled at the vicious sexist harassment and essentially ignoring idiotic claims of "but ethical journalism will be just presenting 'objective' reviews of games - ie whether or not they are fun" -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:46, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I've said. It reeks of one side of the discussion. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:23, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

There is only one side, I'm afraid. The minor, dissenting "but ethics" point-of-view is not equatable, and is given the coverage that it is due, per policy. That is all we can do, is go by the reliable sources. Tarc (talk) 14:42, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

As noted before, there are multiple sides and facets to this issue, of which only one gets a hearing here, and it's not due to the lack of coverage. This will be dealt with soon, I'm sure. No established editor wants to go outside of the reliable sources, but many of us do want the reliable sources used appropriately. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:46, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The best way to make it better is to suggest changes, complete with appropriate sources. If the coverage is there (which I dispute but if it is there) then you should be able to do that.Soupy sautoy (talk) 15:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the well is so poisoned it's better to wait and see if the worst parties are removed from the topic area first. Even questions get you labeled a troll, so right now it's more an awareness thing in hopes some change their tune. Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

That's been the 8chan/reddit playbook all along; agitate the real Misplaced Pages editors, run to Arbcom for relief, then hopefully return the atricle to all its Quinn/Sarkeesian/Wu-bashing early days It remains to bee seen whether this was an effective strategy or not, hopefully Arbcom was up to the task of drilling down to what really happened here. Tarc (talk) 15:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

What any outside group wants is not my concern. I'm interested in a neutral article on a controversial topic, and we do not currently have that. Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:39, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually we do have that now, just needs a little quotefarm and bloat cleanup. The focu of the article as the Draft version stands is essentially correct. Tarc (talk) 15:45, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The draft article has a very skewed focus that does not reflect the accuracy of the situation, which is a problem that will need resolution eventually. Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:59, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, it does reflect the accuracy of the situation, as per all the reliable sources. Even the movement's supporters (c.f. First Things) admit that Gamergate is effectively dead at this point. The movement has devolved into random swatting, doxing and invective targeting its opponents, and isn't even pretending to be about "journalism ethics" at this point. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:33, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

This is what our article says, yes. The concern is what is actually occurring. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:52, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

You and others have been repeatedly invited to present the reliable sources which say something else is occurring. That you and others have been unable or unwilling to do so suggests the accuracy of the situation is, indeed, well-reflected by our article. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Many have and continue to do so. That the process has largely been driven by bad acting than fundamental encyclopedia building is why many of us, myself included, are taking a more wait-and-see approach. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:01, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we have all seen the attempts to present anonymous blogs and Breitbart as acceptable sources for salacious and highly defamatory claims about living people. They continue to not count as reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:08, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

And I'll join you in continuing to not want to include those sources in there, while continuing to criticize the skew of this article and the behavior that has created the failed article we currently have. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:10, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Two of the five times First Things is cited its just a footnote that's been tacked on to something already cited in another source. So it's not really that overrepresented. Bosstopher (talk) 21:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'd say that it should just be stripped out. The purpose of the article is not to enumerate every comment anyone has made; the purpose is to give an overarching description of coverage. One blog post by a media commentator does not change that, and it is giving it WP:UNDUE weight to include it without further support that the opinion expressed is significant (eg. similar commentators stating similar things.) Additionally, after looking over it, it was frequently quoted in areas where the quote or opinion it was cited for was tangential to the topic of the paragraph; remember, quotes and cites shouldn't be added simply as a way of indirectly repeating your own opinions in the article, but because they genuinely illuminate noteworthy swaths of the public reaction. I'm not seeing that here. (Remember, we just managed to trim the article down from the QUOTEFARM warning; if people start citing random blogs to argue point / counterpoint against each other by proxy, it'll explode back to there in no time.) --Aquillion (talk) 08:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oh come on. Any pro-GG POV is obviously the minority, so you're raising the bar to "noteworthy swaths", as well as dismissing the source as a "random blog". This plainly increases the partial slant of the article. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 12:21, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

How long until you get it? You have stated it directly above, as per policy we represent the viewpoints of the subject as they are representative of the mainstream views. Since the mainstream views of the subject are near unanimous in their reception/view, per POLICY, our article will reflect such a view, and ONLY by doing so will the article be/retain its encyclopedic Neutral Point of View. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:37, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

That's not what the policy says; we don't pick the predominate opinion and only present that. It will get the most details in the article, yes, but we don't simply omit other opinions. We cannot take any view even if it a near unaminous view taken by reliable sources, and we should be looking for reliable sources that cover the other side of the issue or give counterpoints, as long as those sources are strong reliable sources. I don't think this source qualifies as such, but the point is that to be neutral, we should be trying to find ways to be able to cover counter points if they are minority views; if more than singular sources express these points, we should be discussing them here. --MASEM (t) 19:46, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

"Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." The overwhelming majority of significant viewpoints in reliable sources are quite clear and unanimous and you have failed to provide evidence otherwise. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:43, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Unanimous in saying what? I feel like we have constructed an imaginary "consensus" here without explaining exactly what sort of views it ought to be able to silence. Is independent analysis that appears in a reliable source somehow "wrong" in its entirety, or is it merely inconvenient because it forces us to engage in critical thought? What specific views are supposed to be "overwhelming", and in which specific sources do they appear? Shii (tock) 21:50, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Unanimous that gamergate is nothing more than a clusterfuck of online, vicious harassment directed mostly at women that signifies nothing more than the culture wars have reached into gaming. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The First Things article is basically on board with that, so you shouldn't have any objection to it. Shii (tock) 22:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Then we return to Tony's question of Why are we including First Post when we have better levels of sourcing for those claims? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:46, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

As I said many times, because it is an outside source providing an independent viewpoint on what the cultural war is and why it is being fought. Shii (tock) 00:17, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

And then we are back to whether this singular voice is actually representative of a significant viewpoint when we dont have other reliable sources making comments on the same wavelength. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:17, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

NPOV is more than just UNDUE. There are several facets of being neutral, and one is impartiality. We should not be approaching this article with the mindset "There is only one major view, everything else is fringe", we instead, to be impartial, need to approach this recognizing that there are many other viewpoints on the situation and we should be trying to find sufficient (in terms of quantity and quality) of sourcing to include those other views to be impartial. Yes, the predominate viewpoint will still be the major fraction of this article, but to take the attitude that because the bulk of the sourcing have settled on one view that we should exclude all other views is not an acceptable way to write a neutral article. --MASEM (t) 22:01, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

And back to the "but its not impartial!!!!" without being able to actually identify any actual instances of non-impartiality. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:22, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

So I take it you want to keep the First Things discussion since it is, after all, impartial. Shii (tock) 22:24, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The attitude above is exactly the case of not being impartial - we cannot treat the predominate view as the only view , if there are reliable sources that also describe the other views (Which they do). Refusal to acknowledge that there are other views that have the possibility of being sources is a serious problem for editing neutrality. --MASEM (t) 22:27, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

We DO cover the "but ethics", probably in far more detail and length than it is given credit the reliable sources . And claims of "impartiality" happening on the talk page are irrelevant to the NPOV policy which covers article content. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:30, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

That's one angle. This source is a different point of view (coming from what appears someone uninvolved in GG). Trying to shut down discussion of these points when there are no immediately bogus issues (likely grossly-insulting BLP or a far-from-reliable source) because you claim that it is a point that won't fit into the article due to UNDUE is a problem; we have to be open to discussing all issues that are completely fair to discuss, unless it is clear that they have been discussed to death in the past. As this is a "new" source, that claim can't be made, and instead it is fair to see what other points align with this source and see if it is worthy of inclusion , as to be impartial to the matter. NPOV may not apply to talk page, but talk page behavior that attempts to bypass discussion as to what aspects of NPOV or other policies apply is not appropriate for talk pages. --MASEM (t) 22:46, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

then we are back to UNDUE- if the analysis/interpretation is only coming from this one guy, it is probably not a voice /interpretation that we should cover in any level of depth if at all. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Or we find better sources. Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:46, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

We have New York Times, Guardian, PBS, Washington Post, Columbia Journalism Review, Australian Broadcast Company, BBC, On The Media, New York Magazine , Inside Higher Ed... not really sure what "better sources" you might be wishing for. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:19, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

You can't have it both ways. Many of the opinions featured in the present article that are strongly against GG are just that of "one guy" (the writer), though when you take their points overall, they'll all in the same broad direction; that is, we right to discuss the broad opinions but we're still overly quoting singular voices representing different facets of that broad opinion. There's just as equal a valid broad opinion favoring GG from reliable sources, and if we're going to feature singular voices from the broad antiGG side then there's no reason to have as much call-to to a singular voice from the proGG side; otherwise, we remove the singular voices - at least those that are not major players in the overall controversy (eg we can including Quinn, or Intel, etc.) - least we admit being not partial and hypocritical. Note that the sources still have to be high quality, and this is not saying that the same amount of ink has to be devoted to the other side because that's against UNDUE, but it is UNDUE and impartial to allow detailed analysis of one side and refuse to allow similar from the other side when the quality of the sourcing is just as good. --MASEM (t) 15:52, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

(To add, I'd much rather prefer to keep the more detailed points from the higher quality sources on both sides - avoiding quotefarming but touching on core points that only secondary sources on the whole situation can make. But this means allowing those same from the proGG side when they come from a similar high quality source). --MASEM (t) 16:09, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

"There's just as equal a valid broad opinion favoring GG from reliable sources" - Bullshit. Just plain utter unadulterated bullshit. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Aquillion's comment here goes to the heart of my concerns. The viewpoint expressed in that essay is an extreme outlier, so all bt most cursory references risk unbalancing our article. Indeed we're using it in several places to gainsay the overwhelming weight of informed opinion. --TS 19:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The fact that the viewpoint is different does not change the fact that First Things is one of the most reliable and notable sources when it comes to analysis of American civic life, and is far more noteworthy than the likes of Vox and The Verge. Shii (tock) 21:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I note that User:Tarc has now removed the content twice despite the fact that he has neither justified his characterization nor indeed participated in this discussion at all. Shii (tock) 21:15, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Most reliable and notable according to whom? It's a religious magazine with a small readership as far as I can tell. Let's not over weight it. — Strongjam (talk) 21:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

FYI, you can find First Things in any American library that carries political journals, alongside similar publications like The Atlantic, Foreign Affairs, and the New York Review of Books. If you ever read a book about religion in America after 1990 you will probably see it mentioned. It's not my fault that you haven't heard of it; you only have to read the first two paragraphs of its Misplaced Pages article to see that it is far more relevant to encyclopedic summaries of cultural commentary than tech blogs. Shii (tock) 21:24, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I disagree, a religious journals take on a controversy founded in the technology world is not as relevant as a major technology news site take on it. It's useful, but it shouldn't be so heavily weighted. — Strongjam (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I don't think that the tech blogs have too much weight in the draft article or that they are biased (after all, we have the NYT and New Yorker in agreement), but they are very close to the controversy and deserve a bit of balance with an uninvolved attempt to frame the controversy in light of culture wars more generally. First Things should be considered more notable than, for example, Anders Sandberg's academic analysis which he posted on his blog, and which we currently devote a full paragraph to. Shii (tock) 21:35, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Geez, hysterics much? I have been following the discussion throughout, and saw little need to post a "I agree" post. But if it will make you feel better, I agree with the sentiments of Aquillion and TS. Happy? Tarc (talk) 21:22, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Please explain to me in what way I am being hysterical. Shii (tock) 21:24, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Your Downton Abbey-esque "my goodness, the dear chap protests without communication!" above. This is a fringe, minor point-of-view being giving more prominence that it deserves, now being edit-warred over by single-purpose accounts. This is what we're trying to get out of this topic area. Tarc (talk) 22:36, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Blog discussion

• Whether the First Things article was religious or not (having read it, I don't see the religion stuff), First Things Is a journal which critiques society and GamerGate is part of that. The relevance of the source shouldn't mbe questioned .Likewise the claim that it's a random blog should be nullified, lest we trim all "random blogs" from the article. I'd say First Things should have a lot more say on "social justice" than Vox. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 01:02, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
  • But it is one blog post in a journal only tangentially related to videogames or journalism. The reason we cite such commentators is to explain noteworthy coverage, responses, and analysis about the subject; when the overwhelming majority of commentary agrees on something, it is naturally noteworthy, and we need large numbers of citations to establish that. On the other hand, when one person writes a blog post disagreeing (even if it were a noteworthy blog), giving them this sort of extensive focus amounts to WP:UNDUE weight; our article is not meant to be a catalog of every blogger's opinions on the topic, nor a place where people can fire off quotes from various blogs as a form of point-counterpoint; rather, it is meant to summarize the noteworthy views. Nothing about First Things gives me any impression that their views on this controversy are intrinsically noteworthy simply because this blog is saying them; nor, thus far, has anyone made a particularly compelling argument that the personal opinions this blogpost expresses are noteworthy in their own way the way (eg.) the large-scale reactions summarized elsewhere in the article are. Therefore it is mostly non-notable in the context of the article. --Aquillion (talk) 05:03, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
    • @User:Aquillion -- are you aware that The Verge and Vox are also blogs? By the standard you just employed, everything cited to those sources should be removed from the article as well. Shii (tock) 13:38, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
      • They publish both news and commentary about the news; they're not just opinion-blogs the way that particular column from First Things is. We only cite their more opinion-oriented pieces, as far as I am aware, for their opinion in situations where we can establish that this opinion is notable (eg. as part of a list of many other opinions to establish that a particular interpretation is widespread and not just one random blogger commenting on it.) When they focus on the news, I believe they pass WP:RS; Vox does its own reporting and has a history of issuing updates and corrections when necessary, say, which is an important part of being a reliable source (as WP:RS says, "One signal that a news organization engages in fact-checking and has a reputation for accuracy is the publication of corrections.") Both of them are also heavily focused on analyzing and interpreting the news, the media, and reporting, which are central to this topic -- we badly need the kind of in-depths coverage they provide in order to write about GamerGate at all, given how complicated it is. The First Things article, though, is just a blogpost in which someone expresses their personal opinion -- it makes no claims to accuracy, nor is there any reason to grant that author's opinion any particular weight beyond anyone else's. Their 'about' page, as far as I can tell, talks a lot about how they intend to confront the ideology of secularism and push a religious viewpoint, but very little about how they intend to ensure accuracy or reliability in their articles. This, to me, gives me the impression that their opinion pieces would be worth citing (carefully, with an eye to avoid giving their particular view undue weight) to give the opinion of people who oppose secularism and want to push for greater presence of religion in the public sphere in an article where the opinion of people like that is clearly relevant (eg. articles about religion), but it doesn't give any reason to think that stuff from their opinion-pieces is reliable for matters of fact, nor any reason to think that their opinion is at all relevant in a topic like this one. --Aquillion (talk) 22:47, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Wingfield's opinion on Gjoni's blogpost

Shortly after the release of Depression Quest on Steam in August 2014, Quinn's former boyfriend Eron Gjoni wrote a blog post, described by The New York Times as a "strange, rambling attack", containing a series of allegations, among which was that Quinn had an affair with Kotaku journalist Nathan Grayson

Currently we are using a New York Times quote to comment on Gjoni's blogpost as a "strange, rambling attack". The quote comes from a Bits blog post by Nick Wingfield from Oct 2:

In a phone interview, Ms. Alexander, who also consults for independent game makers, said that “Intel was fleeced by a hate mob.” She said she wrote her opinion piece because of the online treatment of Zoe Quinn, an independent game maker who was the subject of a strange, rambling attack written by a former boyfriend in August.

In context it's not clear whether the quote reflects Wingfield's own or Leigh Alexander's opinion.

Two weeks later another article by Wingfield is published in the more prominent Technology section of New York Times. This article also appears in the print version. Here Wingfield uses a milder wording as before and describes Gjoni's blogpost as a "rambling online essay". We should prefer the wording of the second article over the first, because it's less ambiguous, more recent and was published more prominently. - preceding unsigned comment by User:Maklaan at 01:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support - thanks for bringing this up. Yeah, the Bits Blog is less reliable than the later Technology article. Wingfield's opinion also has more "distance" from the controversy. Leigh Alexander is already 'proven' to be partisan against gamers, as per the Gamasutra piece she wrote which this GamerGate article depicts. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 01:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

"rambling online essay" is okay, as long as we don't lose the fact that it was fundamentally a character assassination. That it was effective in its context is undeniable. The victim of the attack is still suffering and may blamelessly suffer throughout her life. We should be careful to avoid understating the savagery of the attack on Zoe Quinn, and the extent to which the attacker was complicit in the ramifications for months beyond the original malicious attack. We don't rely on that particular article to support the fact of the savagery or it ramifications. --TS 01:48, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Then we might also add Eric Johnson's discussion on Re/code, Her accuser comes off more as an angry, unbalanced ex than a responsible watchdog. Or The Verge's description of it as a screed. Or The Age's discussion: It's such a wretched, sleazy business that there's little surprise this latest septic eruption of Internet misogyny escalated from a jilted boyfriend, a programmer by the name of Eron Gjoni. He had been dating a game developer called Zoe Quinn and then in the way of these things, Eron and Zoe were dating no more. We've all been there, and like many of us Eron did not cope well. He said a lot of spiteful, nasty things. Or Vox: Eron Gjoni, who had dated Quinn, posted a revenge blog accusing her of cheating on him with Nathan Grayson. The point is that Gjoni's post was not a dispassionate note but a highly personal diatribe by a deeply involved person — reliable sources view it not as some sort of altruistic whistle-blowing but as an act of spiteful drama-dumping revenge. If you'd prefer that we paraphrase that clearly-expressed sense of the reliable sources, I'm not opposed to doing so. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:52, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'm looking for opinions with has more "distance" from the controversy ... also known as ... mainstream media. Of which, I believe only the Age qualifies above, but does the Age say anything specific? I went to check, so He said a lot of spiteful, nasty things is not necessarily referring to that exact blog post. The exact wording to describe the blog post is he unloaded his grief online, alleging that his ex-girlfriend had sex with a critic who then wrote a friendly review of her game. (Note, this didn't happen). starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 02:00, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

The Age's summary is most on the mark. I don't think either "strange, rambling attack" or "online essay" is a decent summary. Neither one gets to the point of how personal the blog post is. It (1) accuses ZQ of serial infidelity and (2) publicizes a large number of private break-up related conversations, (3) under the flimsy pretense of "alerting the community" -- an ingenuity that became typical of GG itself. I agree with NBSB that it's an incisive drama dump that poses as "altruistic whistle-blowing." Shii (tock) 02:08, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Shii, NorthBySouthBaranof per sources below "rambling online essay" or one of the proposals by Ries42 do reflect the media's opinion better. If you were still opposed to it, could you give further explanation. -- Maklaan (talk) 12:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

As per the sources below and here, here, here and elsewhere, no. "Spiteful, rambling essay" would be fine. Gjoni clearly intended the post as an attack on his ex-lover, and the description of that is apt and necessary. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:47, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I think "spiteful" is too harsh, especially considering you want to include it because "Gjoni clearly intended the post as an attack". The majority of sources does not make that implication. While the sources you posted did use the word, there are many more and better sources, which choose a milder or even neutral wording. Keep also in mind, that it's a WP:BLP issue and we should be careful to include harsh judgments. There is also a WP:SYNTH problem with "Spiteful, rambling essay".-- Maklaan (talk) 13:58, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

i am not sure what world you are from, but "spiteful" is a mild description for spewing allegations about your ex all over the web because she dumped your sorry ass. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Redpen, if you feel compelled to write in such an insulting and pejorative manner to other editors about living persons involved in the article's subject, I think you ought to step away for a while. Starke Hathaway (talk) 14:56, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

not even close to BLP issue. There are multiple sources describing this particular rant as "spiteful" and i ] -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:02, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Starke. TRPoD, there is no need to make personal comments against me or other editors. Regarding your post:

No, It's not about what world I am from, but what world the media is from. Does "spitful" reflect the media's broad opinion? If it only reflected a minority opinion, shouldn't we leave it out because of WP:BLP? -- Maklaan (talk) 15:06, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• How much discussion on this blog post do we want to have exactly? More than one comment may be WP:UNDUE or else we may be making it more that what it is. Whats next, dueling quotations on what everyone feels about it? Its unimportant to the big picture and it would be irresponsible to give thezoepost more than that, for fear of BLP issues related to Ms. Quinn or Mr Gjoni. Support the updated NYTimes wording, but Oppose adding anything more beyond that. I may support an different wording if it is proposed in alternative to the NYTimes wording, but I don't quite see that above. Ries42 (talk) 02:11, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Most of the coverage of GamerGate in reliable sources indicates that the controversy fundamentally grew out out of harassment against Quinn in particular in response to that blog post; it eventually expanded to other targets, especially Wu and Sarkeesian, but the blog post is still at the heart of the subject's coverage in reliable sources today. Obviously, we have to be careful not to become part of the attacks against Quinn (or any other living person), which means that we have to be very careful to use the most reliable sources in that section and remove anything defamatory; but I don't feel it is possible to cover GamerGate coherently without going into extensive detail on how Quinn was attacked. --Aquillion (talk) 05:53, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

other options:

• Long Diatriabe
• rambling 9,000-word essay
• an angry online rant
• rambling blog post
• a big rant
• a 9000-word rant
• a nearly-10,000-word screed
• a vicious attack
• a dirty-laundry double load of drama-laden chats
• the blog post that sparked the controversy set a misogynistic tone.
• 9,000-word screed

"Rant" seems to be the descriptor of choice. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:04, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

• "Long diatribe" (NYTimes) "rambling online essay" (NYTimes) both seem to be the most reliable sources here, and look to be the most acceptable, neutral descriptors. "Rambling blog post" (ABCNews), "rambling 9,000-word essay" (Businessweek), seem acceptable as well. If anything rambling seems to be the most common descriptor. The other ones seem to be a bit less reliable and/or perhaps a bit less neutral. My issue being there may be BLP issues against Eron Gjoni to attack him too much with how we choose to describe the essay. Ries42 (talk) 14:23, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

From what I can gather mentions of its length and ramblyness pop up more than anything else, although stuff like "screed" and "rant" both pop up a significant amount too. To avoid sampling bias in the quotes people are selecting, below are descriptions of the Zoepost from the first 50 sources used in the mainspace article :

Bosstopher (talk) 14:52, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

One thing I think we should avoid is deciding to take the "average" words and make a WP voiced comment on what the blog post is. Saying "it was a long, rambling rant" while maybe the most accurate after looking at every source, is never said exactly by any source. The closest, reliable source we can get to that wording (which mentions both its length and 'rambling') should be the one used.

• Propose "rambling online essay" by NYTimes. It includes rambling and an "online essay" is more indicative of length than Guardian's "rambling blog post," although BusinessWeek's "rambling 9,000-word essay" may work on both points as well. Ries42 (talk) 15:30, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I say we just avoid trying to find a good quote everyone is happy with and WP:ASSERT that it's a rambling blog post. I've given it a go in the draft article — Strongjam (talk) 15:49, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I 100% disagree with this. You've just asserted, in WP voice, that it is a FACT that it is a rambling blog post. The only fact there is its a "blog post" the rambling part must be attributed because it is a subjective opinion. The point of this is to find the most neutral, but still subjective, opinion and source it. With that being said, we have a source that calls it a "rambling blogpost," the Guarding. Add a source, and you're golden. You can either say, "described by the Guardian as a "rambling blog post"" or perhaps "a blog post that several commentators have described as "long" and "rambling" of which we have several sources for those descriptors. In no event, though, should any subjective descriptor be in WP's voice. Ries42 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Self-reverted, but I disagree. It's widely described as rambling and there is no dispute about that in our sources, it's a perfect candidate for WP:ASSERT. — Strongjam (talk) 16:42, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Multiple sources on rambly. Zero sources identifying it as "concise" . WP:ASSERT. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:31, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

TRPoD and Strongjam: The blogpost is not factually "rambling". It's an opinion (held by many commentators). Because it's an opinion Ries42 suggestions follow the guidelines of WP:ASSERT, while Strongjam's edit does not. Strongjam's edit would imply the blogpost being "rambling" is a fact. -- Maklaan (talk) 18:09, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

It is factually rambling (long and without clear direction.) There is no dispute about that, reliable sources accept that as true. Per WP:ASSERT that's a fact. — Strongjam (talk) 18:26, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

It is not factually rambling. It is a commonly held opinion that it is rambling. It is a fact that it is a blog post. Per WP:Assert When a statement is an opinion (e.g. a matter which is subject to serious dispute or commonly considered to be subjective), it should be attributed in the text to the person or group who holds the opinion. An opinion does not become a fact simply because it is commonly held by a group. While opinions can become fact, generally there needs to be an empirical or objective reason for such. For instance, it may have previously been an opinion that the earth was round, but it has become a fact after it was objectively observed or proven. While we can agree that the opinion is not subject to serious dispute here, an adjective such as rambling is "commonly considered to be subjective" and as such, should be attributed in the text to the person or group who holds that opinion. Ries42 (talk) 18:53, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Note: Just because it is an opinion, though, does not mean we need to counter-source it with an opposing opinion. To my knowledge, there isn't a reliable source that makes such a counter argument, and even if there were, it would likely be WP:Undue and in the vast minority. However, the lack of a counter opinion does not raise the initial opinion to the level of a fact. Ries42 (talk) 18:57, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

It is FACTUALLY a vicious attack per FOX News . It is FACTUALLY a 9000-word rant per the SMH It is FACTUALLY rambling by ABC News and to anyone with 2 brain cells who looks at it. WP:ASSERT -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:38, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

You can't just yell ITS A FACT and WP:ASSERT as if that ends the conversation. Its like you haven't even read Assert. I quoted it above and here, with my own emphasis added When a statement is an opinion (e.g. a matter which is subject to serious dispute or commonly considered to be subjective), it should be attributed in the text to the person or group who holds the opinion. There is no way to objectively define something like this. It doesn't exist. Its an opinion that its rambling, even if it is a commonly held opinion. Facts are concrete. The earth is round. The sun is hot. The post was made on a blog. Facts. Facts can be subjective, but generally only in the first person. If Person A says they're sad, this is a subjective fact. If Person B says Person A is sad, no matter how true it might be, it is still an opinion because Person B can never truly know Person A's mental state. Ries42 (talk) 21:21, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

If you are going down that rabbit hole "Eron Gjoni wrote a blog post described by everyone who read it as a rambling attack". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:41, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

You keep citing essays, as if they say exactly what you want. You're wiki-lawyering more than I am. I'm pointing out that the things you're citing as authority don't say what you're saying they do, after reading them. You don't get to cite an essay, as if you're correct, then call me a "wikilawyer" when I then say you're using that essay incorrectly. The fact remains, for that wording, you need a Citation. Especially if you're going to call it a "rambling attack" which is much less supported than "rambling blog post or online essay". Further, "everyone"? That's a huge assumption that requires an equally huge amount to back it up. Hell you could keep most of that wording and just change some things slightly to be neutral. "Eron Gjoni wrote a blog post described by many commentators as "rambling" and "long". " No need to use inflamatory words. Ries42 (talk) 22:46, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Is it that hard to distinguish between fact and opinion? "posted online" = fact. "____ words" = fact. "rambling" = opinion, because not everybody might read the post and think of it as so. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 05:37, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

provide a single source that describes it as "consise" or "direct" or anything counter to "rambling". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:58, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

"not everyone"? ummmmmmm no. there is no one who would not agree to "rambling".-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:57, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Really? I don't agree. There, you are now, for a fact, wrong. Sure I'm not a reliable source, but you can't make blanket statements like "there is no one who would not agree" to X, and be correct. There are plenty of people who would not agree just to spite you. And don't then make a conspiracy theorist remark in response to try and discredit me, the ad hom here is getting sickening (I am mostly refering to NBSB's baseless remarks above, but others have done so too). That doesn't have any logical sway here. The point is, that no matter if someone is spiting you or genuinely disagreeing, you have no way of knowing that for certain. As such, you must defer to the fact that such adjectives are opinions and source them appropriately. Don't be needlessly dense it is not difficult to do so. The alternative is to label an opinion in WP's voice as a FACT. Only someone with an agenda would prefer to do so instead of attributing an opinion to the person or persons who hold it. Ries42 (talk) 15:36, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:PROVEIT give one source that describes it as "concise" or "direct" or any synonym for "non-rambling" .-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:58, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Irregardless of any source commenting whether something is 'direct' or 'concise' (opinions which would need to be sourced, after all), WP:PROVEIT that you could describe ANY writing as "rambling" as a FACT, without providing a source that holds that OPINION. Show me it has ever been done before without being sourced to the person or persons that hold that opinion. Ries42 (talk) 16:21, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm new here. In all honesty, the drama surrounding this article is what sucked me into the addicting and beautiful mess that is the creation of Misplaced Pages. Nevertheless, here are my two cents: the current version of the draft article including the "rambling online essay" phraseology feels superfluous. I'd go so far as to say the vast majority of self-published essays online are "rambling" - one needn't look much further than this very talk page for evidence of that. Therefore, it feels silly to modify the sentence by adding that information, when it adds little, if any, value. I'd suggest one of two paths. One would be to shift the quote back to something more in line with what it was, describing the post as a "rant" a "screed" or some descriptive phrase from the list culled by Bosstopher. This way, the appositive phrase informs the reader of the overall tone of the blog post, rather than a simple judgement on its style. The second path would be to strike the phrase altogether, and simply have the sentence read: "Shortly after the release of Depression Quest on Steam in August 2014, Quinn's former boyfriend Eron Gjoni wrote a blog post containing a series of allegations, among which was that Quinn had an affair with Kotaku journalist Nathan Grayson." If we aren't adding a quote of value to the sentence, I'd suggest not adding one at all. "Strange, rambling attack" is illustrative of the content of the post and represents something unusual and noteworthy. "Rambling online essay" is vague and offers no real new information to the reader. If we're opting to be vague, at the very least we should be concise. SinglePurposePartier (talk) 07:04, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm ok with with either leaving it out or choosing "rambling" or "rant", though I still prefer "rambling". If the sources thought "rambling" was superfluous in describing a blog post, they wouldn't have used it. To me the words "rambling", "rant" and "screed" have a similar meaning and all express a slightly negative opinion. From the discussion above I take, that "rambling" would be accepted. Unless there are other editors coming forward to use "rant" over "rambling", I would leave it at "rambling". Further I prefer keeping the media's opinion about the blog post in. The blog post is important for the controversy and the majority of media choose to comment on it. -- Maklaan (talk) 14:44, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

To further explain why "rambling online essay" is better than "strange, rambling attack" as shown above, the same writer, Nick Wingfield, wrote both articles. The "rambling online essay" was written two weeks later. Additionally there is some concern that a rather involved party (Leigh Alexander) may have directly influenced the first wording, or that the wording may have been hers and not Wingfield's (see above for discussion). As such, the later wording seems to be the more "accurate" from the author's POV and why it would be better to take it. If there is something from another author that is more appropriate, we could discuss replacing Wingfield's quote with that, or removing it all together; however, if we're choosing between Wingfield quotes, the "rambling online essay" one is clearly superior because it reflects his most recent opinion. Ries42 (talk) 15:52, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I suppose I concur. That seems to make sense to me. I just felt the need to butt in and suggest that we worry less about slightly conspiratorial things like "concern that a rather involved party (Leigh Alexander) may have directly influenced the first wording", and more about what ultimately helps the reader understand what the popular sentiment is about this blog post. If that's the logic this is based on, as per Maklaan's comments, I'd say I'm swayed. SinglePurposePartier (talk) 18:10, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The primary targets MUST be mentioned in the lead section

There cannot be any summary of the GG controversy without mentioning who the primary targets are. And we CAN use their names and not attempt to erase them via the GG LW strategy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Zoe Quinn is mentioned by name 47 times in this article, and has large sections of the article that are centered around her. Anita Sarkeesian is mentioned 21 times. Brianna Wu is mentioned 9 times. Given that the lede is meant to be a summary of the article, I see no reason reason why they (or at the very least Quinn) should not be mentioned by name in the lede. Bosstopher (talk) 17:30, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

The lede is "extra" short in our case because there are a lot of tangents in the article; the current length, WP:LEAD would suggest we have 3 paragraphs but to go into any more detail on any specific elements gets us into describing details that are very hard to summarize. As such, to keep the smaller details of the lead as to provide a quick overview has been made to the lead. This has included removing the names of the three primary harassed figures, not because they aren't critical to the story, but simply that at this point, well beyond their initial involvement, the story isn't about those three specifically anymore but the general use of harassment as a silencing tool by their critics that claim to represent GG - that fact which is captured in the lead. They are important to the story as an historical perspective, but they aren't the reason that GG is still discussed (its the ongoing use of harassment that's central). We keep the lede cleaner and sustinct by avoiding that potential rabbit trail, leaving it to the body to explain this part. --MASEM (t) 17:36, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh get real. Not one piece of coverage of GG does not name the targets. It would indeed be a NPOV violation for our lead to break with ALL of the sources in such a manner and to omit this major portion of the content of the article. We are not participants in GG's efforts to erase the presence of women. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:39, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

No, it's not an NPOV in terms of the lede (in the body, of course it would be completely wrong to omit them). And I've seen plenty of GG articles of more recent that omit Wu and in some cases Sarkeesian, focusing that it was the allegations against Quinn that set the thing in motion and then her name is dropped. They were, unintentionally, catalysts of the situation and important to the history but in the larger picture, what the controversy is, they were early names but aren't part of that bigger picture on the situation. I'm not saying they aren't important, but in the choice we have made for a very concise lead to avoid rabbit trails of details that would have to be introduced, omitting their names in the lead (in favor of explaining that a series of harassment against numerous people including female game professionals) is an allowable editing choice that does not violation any policy and helps to make the lede read better and direct to the point. --MASEM (t) 17:45, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

No, "omitting their names" is not "allowable editing choic" , it is a step in the GG LW playbook. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:51, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

If we explain that we then need to explain all the other steps in the GG playbook in the lede (including all the various "Operations', etc) to be neutral, which I'm pretty confident we don't want to do. We cut two paragraphs that when into a history of the details of GG for this reason, to avoid getting into what is a complicated history of events, to focus on the crux of the controversy - "ethics" vs hostile harassment. --MASEM (t) 17:55, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

No one said we need to explain their playbook in the lead. We just dont need to be accomplices. And your concern about getting dragged into the rabbit hole is addressed by not getting dragged into the rabbit hole, not by pretending that rabbits dont exist. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:03, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

You just said it right there, its part of the GG playbook, so if we're going to cover that, we would need to cover the rest, otherwise we are being overly selective for a neutral source. And we're not ignoring anything - the harassment against female game professionals - just not named ones - is still cited as the reason that GG was brought to mainstream attention. --MASEM (t) 18:24, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, harassment particularly directed at the LW1-3 is part of the GG playbook and we can cover that easily in the lead as it is a major component of the notability and history of the controversy (you will remember what brought this to the front page NYT ?) - no rabbit holes there. That there are other parts of the GG playbook, such as attempting to invisiblize women, we dont need to cover in the lead, as they have not received significant coverage. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:35, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Well considering that The Union says that only a minority are attacking the LW's we can't really call this the standard GG playbook, Misplaced Pages shouldn't be giving a voice to the minority in the lead as that would be undue. Avono (talk) 18:42, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Can we just use their names instead of this literally who crap? — Strongjam (talk) 18:45, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

So it's a BLP violation to spend too much time on the harassment and such, but we must make sure the harassment is in the lead to ensure that it's front and center and bring lots of attention to it? I know that there's a desire to make one side look really, really bad and the other really, really good in the way this article is being edited, but can we maybe aim for neutrality instead? Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

The only reason Gamergate is even notable is its harassment campaigns. There is not a single mainstream reliable source which doesn't discuss Gamergate in the context of vicious, misogynist, anonymous harassment campaigns against Quinn, Sarkeesian, Wu and others, because it's essentially the only thing of substance that Gamergate has done. So yes, there's going to be a significant focus on the harassment which Gamergate is responsible for. That is an inevitable consequence of their actions, and it is why the very word is poisonous at this point to anyone not ideologically committed to the movement. We reflect the world as it is, not how a movement's supporters might wish it to be. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:59, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Can you rephrase this in a neutral way? Thargor Orlando (talk) 19:12, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Not with Intel's $300M thing, it is more than harassment. GG is now notable for having the industry recognize there are internal problems with how they treat women and minorities as a result of GG. It's not what GG wanted, and the methods used are highly suspect. In getting past RECENTISM, their role in the overall situation is no longer a significant factor as what the GG controversy is, to the point that they need to called out in the lede and ignoring other similarly "important" facets (on both sides). The lead summarized the current situation with GG without knowing who exactly those people are. (It also begs the question of who was more important here: remember that others like Phil Fish, Jenn Frank, and Leigh Alexander, among others, got unfair treatment via social media; it is simply better to not play favorites in the lede.) --MASEM (t) 19:21, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

It's not a matter of playing favorites, it's a matter of noting who the primary targets were, as the reliable sources have done. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

It is playing favorites both on targets, and then omitting much of the rest of the history of GG (in both directions). There is nothing special gained for a reader who may be coming in fresh into this article w/o knowledge of Gamergate and its major participants (who are not household names), to know who these three are; you can understand the crux of gamergate - "ethics" vs harassment - without knowing that. Yes, we could put them in, but then we have to include a good summary of all the various core events of GG that go around that, and that was something that was agreed to remove some time ago (when the lead was 4 paragraphs long, it was trimmed to 2). --MASEM (t) 19:39, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Complete fucking nonsense. Of COURSE it is relevant to the summary of any subject who the major players are. That GG has decided to remain "identifiable" only anonymous trolls is their PR problem and we are not here to be their "white knights" to fend off their bad press. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:43, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not talking about fending off bad press, I'm talking about keeping the lede concise. We have previously agreed to a more condensed lead which did omit the names to avoid going into the detailed history. If we include the names we have to expand the lead to explain all the core history aspects of the story, which weighs down the lead, particularly considering more recent develops are looking well beyond those points (eg Intel's thing). --MASEM (t) 19:49, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

The lead is still very precise while adding the single sentence "The harassment has prominently targeted game designers Zoe Quinn and Brianna Wu as well as Anita Sarkeesian who critiques video games from a feminist perspective. ". And No, we do not need to expand into every detail beyond that. We can control verbal diarrhea, that is what editors do. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:55, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

But again, these are not household names. If they were people of celebrity-type status that were seriously involved (not like Felicia Day or Alec Baldwin's limited involvement but with the recognition of those names), then yes, that might warrant their names. But these are - outside of video games and even within it - nobodies to the average reader. Their role is unavoidable in discussing GG in detail, but they can be omitted from a broad brush stroke, as otherwise we are, to an average reader, throwing out three random names. --MASEM (t) 20:01, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

You do not have to be a household name to be a "major player". And for someone to read the lead and walk away with no indication that the major players are Sarkeesian Wu and Quinn would be to WOEFULLY misrepresent to them what the gamergate clusterfuck has involved. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:08, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

That line of logic means we should be including the other major players attached to the GG situation, including Fish, Jenn Frank, Leigh Alexander, Milo, Alec Baldwin, etc. It's a loooong list, and the involvement gets more complex with each name added. Profession women in the vg industry were harassed which was both condemned by others and brought the situation to light to the rest of the world, that's core to the story and a major walking-away point and as it is now, must be in the lead, but the specifics of who, this far past the initial events, is not as critical for a concise lead statement - and that was the consensus when we did condense it down, to provide as short a definition of what GG is without going into any more specific to avoid a potentially POV lead either way. --MASEM (t) 20:15, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Uh, no. Editorial control of verbal diarrhea. The major players that are all in 90% of the coverage are the LW1-3. The others are ALWAYS peripheral when in the few instances they are mentioned at all. If you are not clear about that, WP:COMPETENCE kicks in. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:26, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

But again, the GG situation can be 100% understood at a broad level without mentioning a single name. Remember that most of the sources are anti-GG and are trying to appeal to the popular opinion of readers so they are intentionally or not going to take a personal view of the matter and focus on those three to point out that there are real people that were harassed, compared with the faceless side of the proGG that it hard to muster any sympathy for due to their anonymonity. From a completely impartial POV and in the concern of keeping the lead as tight as possible, omitting the names does no harm to the reader's understand from a broad perspective. It is an editorial choice, yes, there is no policy that says the names must be omitted, but again I will point that the lead of the current draft was something agreed to on a month or so back, and so readding the names is going against that consensus. --MASEM (t) 20:31, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

E=MC2 can be 100% understood without any mention of Einstein, but to not mention Einstein in the lead would be a travesty that would not happen in any encyclopedia. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

The lead sentence of a front-page article in The New York Times: Anita Sarkeesian, a feminist cultural critic, has for months received death and rape threats from opponents of her recent work challenging the stereotypes of women in video games. Bomb threats for her public talks are now routine. One detractor created a game in which players can click their mouse to punch an image of her face. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:09, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

That's a newspaper aimed to sell copies hence they are going to write empathically towards a common public opinion to sell more papers. We're a clinically neutral encyclopedia trying to provide neutral coverage of a topic and do not write in a manner to engage the reader's empathy. --MASEM (t) 20:15, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Haha, no. We don't psychoanalyze the writing of one of the most respected newspapers in the world. "Neutral" coverage of Gamergate, as per WP:NPOV, means that we write about topics as they are reflected in reliable sources. It is trivial to demonstrate that reliable sources focus on the harassment of specific people. Other examples here, here, here, here, here, here and how many more would you like? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:19, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes we do. We are not a newspaper. We have to recognize opinion and empathic writing and separate statements from that in writing an encyclopedia. Otherwise that is non-neutral writing. NPOV does not say we reflect how other sources write their material at all - we don't take up the sympathetic viewpoint that most GG sources have taken for those harassed. We summarize those sources in a neutral, impartial tone as an encyclopedia, balancing the content appropriate to how the sources provide it but without supporting or opposing any point of view. --MASEM (t) 20:26, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

None of the stories I just cited are opinion columns — to the contrary, they are all hard news stories published by some of the most respected journalistic outlets on the planet — BBC, The Guardian, The New Yorker, The Washington Post and The New York Times. Reporting that specific people have been targeted for vicious and unrelenting harassment campaigns is not a "sympathetic viewpoint," it is simply the mainstream viewpoint about Gamergate and our article will reflect the mainstream viewpoint of reliable sources, as policy demands. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:27, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

It is a sympathetic viewpoint. It introduces a victim first before explaining why she was targetted as a victim. That's a key feature of empathatic writing, putting the figure you want the reader to sympathize with front and center, even if the story is all factual. It happens all the time in newspapers (look at the coverage of the current Charlie Hepdo shootings for example from RSes). We on WP do not write that way and have to recognize that tainting coverage when it does happen. --MASEM (t) 20:37, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

No. I'm sorry, but this is not a "sympathetic viewpoint." It's just not. It is simply how news articles about people who have been victimized are written. That you disagree with how reliable sources frame an issue is interesting, but of no consequence to the encyclopedia. We write articles based on how reliable sources cover something, and reliable sources treat the people at the center of the attacks as what they are - human beings. Because unlike anything Gamergate has raised, that actually is part of journalism ethics: Ethical journalism treats sources, subjects, colleagues and members of the public as human beings deserving of respect. Journalists should: Show compassion for those who may be affected by news coverage - from the SPJ Code of Ethics. It is, after all, about ethics in journalism - reporters ethically reporting on people who have been victimized by anonymous Internet harassment campaigns. UI am truly sorry that reliable sources haven't covered Gamergate the way you want them to. That does not give you license to ignore what those sources say or their framing of the movement's real-world impact on real human beings. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:45, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

It's very important that we recognize when sources try to create sympathy, because we cannot write in any type of sympathetic style, just as we cannot write in a judgmental style towards the proGG side. They are identified as victims, that's fine, we definitely say that. We use their quotes because of being victims their side is core to understanding. But we cannot write the article to create any more sympathy than that. We can express the attributed viewpoint that most sources give that these women did not deserve the harassment they got or the intensity of it, since that's a major viewpoint. But again, it is a viewpoint and opinion, not a stance that we can take in writing this article. We must be clinically neutral in our writing, which newspapers do not have to be to still be considered highly reliable sources. --MASEM (t) 21:17, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

It is not "sympathy" to mention the names of the three most notable victims of Gamergate harassment in the lede of an article which is primarily about the movement's harassment of these three women and the resulting fallout of widespread public condemnation which, in turn, effectively discredited the entire Gamergate movement and resulted in its reduction to an impotent fringe — or, in other words, the Gamergate controversy. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:20, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes it can be taken that way, as by assigning names, you have now introduced real identifible people, who are otherwise unknown outside the situation and the VG field. Obviously in discussing the situation in detail, they cannot be omitted at all, but in a broad summary that the lede should be, it can be seen as personalizing the situation to implicitly create sympathy that the reader should feel. We can write a summary without their names and still get the point across that GG was a situation brought to light by harassment against women professionals in the industry (as you stated above), creating no attempts to sway the reader. --MASEM (t) 21:31, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

they are real people. who were attacked viciously by anonymous trolls. that resulted in the coverage that made the controversy notable. end of story. thems just the facts. no "emotion". no "bias". just standard reporting. the only "emotion" is your facile attempt to shield the poor pooor misunderstood gamergate trolls. you will need to take your white knighting elsewhere. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:26, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

"They are real people" - right there you have forced sympathy into the argument. As a real person, I appreciate that, but as a WP editor, that's a no-no. The only facet about them being real, identifiable people is making sure to uphold BLP claims, but otherwise that's it. --MASEM (t) 22:34, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry that you are so emotional and non objective that the inclusion of information about living people automatically skews your ability to edit appropriately. but please do not project such emotional wimpiness onto others. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:49, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we use names of people when people are encyclopedic. As per the reliable sources and WP:V, the only reason Gamergate is encyclopedic is because of the public attention drawn by its vicious harassment of, among others, Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian and Brianna Wu. All three now have well-sourced biographies on the encyclopedia. Their victimization by Gamergate supporters is indisputably encyclopedic and is widely if not unanimously viewed as the reason Gamergate became a major public controversy. That you disagree with this is of no consequence - we don't write articles that you agree with, we write articles based upon reliable sources, and the reliable sources repeatedly and routinely discuss the controversy in the context of its three primary victims. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:21, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

This is getting nowhere. Perhaps a third opinion is needed. — Strongjam (talk) 21:37, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Agree that they should be mentioned in the lede. The harassment of Quinn, Sarkeesian and Wu make up a significant portion of the article and the coverage. We shouldn't bury the lede. — Strongjam (talk) 19:32, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Counterarguments are deeply unconvincing and basically the same old disruptive editors advocating non-policy. Artw (talk) 01:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• RE TRPoD's OP, why are we even concerned by "the GG LW strategy"? (whatever that is, I have no idea) We should not be affected by that, let's just continue without that in mind. I get where Masem is coming from, if we are really taking a very broad overview of the whole matter, then yeah, we have common themes such as ethics, misogyny, culture war, harassment, social media, but Masem is correct to say that the harassment of Quinn, Sarkeesian is just one tangent of the whole issue, with other tangents like Operation Baby Seal and GameJournoPros which are on a totally different tangent. I am definitely not convinced why Brianna Wu should be in the lead, I mean, the blog post on Quinn basically started GamerGate, and Sarkeesian had the university bomb scare, but Wu ... well she was harassed, but others were harassed as well, what makes her so noteworthy of being in the lede? starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 05:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

No, the harassment of Sarkeesin, Quinn and Wu IS the controversy - it is in no way "tangential". if you are confused about that primary fact, you probably need to consider whether you are up to editing -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:58, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Can I ask what source you are basing this off of? A very quick google news search of "gamergate controversy" doesn't seem to support this definition, at a glance. HalfHat 13:16, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay hold on, I seem to have misunderstood "tangential"; to clarify, the harassment is one part of the controversy, most likely the largest part of the whole controversy, but not the only part of the controversy. There are other parts of the controversy which are unrelated to Quinn, Sarkeesian and Wu, including Operation Baby Seal and GameJournoPros. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 13:36, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

No, those are not part of the "controversy" , they are merely background. The controversy is the vicious horrible harassment of women particularly LW1-3 which led to an exploration of the general culture war against women in video game culture. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:43, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

What sources did you get that definition from? You just seem to be declaring that. HalfHat 21:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

What makes them noteworthy is that the harassment the three were subjected to is wholly responsible for making Gamergate a focus of international media attention, turning a spotlight on the issue of sexism in video gaming and revealing the movement's true nature — stripping away the "ethics in gaming journalism" shield to reveal a culture war against game developers, cultural critics, journalists and others. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:49, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I suggest bringing in external voices here and getting it settled ASAP, these rambling discussions at glance look as unproductive as ever, plus this is quite a major detail of article direction. HalfHat 13:05, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Or people could just stop being tendentious making ludicrous attempts to remove the three most prominent people associated with subject from the lead. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:21, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• I think they obviously need to be mentioned. At a bare minimum, we can't leave out Zoe Quinn; even articles published today describe her as "the game developer at the centre of the Gamergate controversy." --Aquillion (talk) 22:55, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Grace Lynn swatting again

The Grace Lynn swatting discussion (archived here) petered out before we decided what to do about the story. I suppose it's been a busy week, but here we now have plenty of coverage of a Gamergate-related event by major reliable sources. It would seem odd not to cover it in view of that. --TS 03:47, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

She appears to be the only source connecting an address she no longer lives at to anonymous posting on a forum and concludes it's gamergate supporters in real time (what are the odds?). She's flip-flopped on GamerGate because of the inherent conflict of modern feminism and transgender issues. This is perhaps the single most unreliable incident reported. It discredits the other instances through association, though, which is a strong argument to ignore it. --DHeyward (talk) 04:56, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Basically every reliable source acknowledges the person responsible claimed to have nothing to do with GamerGate with at least one explicitly describing it as the likely work of an unaffiliated troll. We shouldn't include everything that happens to a person connected with GamerGate in this article.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:58, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• This incident is already on the swatting article. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 05:47, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Unless we find some sources that talk about how things like the swatting are blamed on Gamergate when they aren't related, I'm not really seeing the point of putting it in given the lack of actual connection. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:22, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm seeing a lot of attempts to deny the known facts as reported by multiple reliable sources, and at least one attempt to say that all the reliable sources say the exact opposite.

Could we get back to reality, please? We're going to have to cover this. --TS 16:09, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Based on what? The known facts are that she has some sort of relationship to Gamergate, but that the swatting was unrelated to the actual movement. If we're going to include it, and I still don't see a good argument as to why we should, it will have to include that information. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:12, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• 'I am afraid for my safety': California woman has 20 police sent to former home in Portland as part of Gamergate harassment campaign.
• Gamergate: Woman blames online harassers for hoax that sent 20 Portland cops to her former home

The sources are crystal-clear here; a person or persons under the banner of "Gamergate" swatted a Gamergate critic. We can even tie it to 8chan directly;

• 8chan user offers to “swat” GamerGate critic, cops sent to an old address

and the information contained there that the police are looking to track down the hoaxer's identity. All of this is relevant to this article. Tarc (talk) 16:27, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

The reality is that her relationship to GamerGate is tenuous. The Oregon Live article isn't particularly reliable for Gamergate as they call it an initial movement for ethics in "video journalism." She felt she was being harassed when she was pro-gamergate, too. Sources reporting based solely what she believes is too much weight. The police didn't attribute a motivation or name a suspect despite her call to the Portland PD and providing her view and the 8chan post doesn't seem to care who they swatted as long as they were doxxed. --DHeyward (talk) 16:44, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Only one of those sources actually attributes it to GamerGate, one makes no attribution, and another presents it as Lynn saying one thing and the party responsible saying another thing. This source implies a connection, but notes the party responsible denies affiliation with GamerGate. In The Verge the parties responsible are dismissed as likely trolls unaffiliated with GamerGate. Even Gawker doesn't say GamerGate is responsible. So the people responsible are widely reported to deny affiliation, sources overwhelmingly avoid implicating GamerGate themselves, and at least one outright states it was likely the work of an unaffiliated troll. This would fit just fine in the 8chan article. We don't need to include every incident with a dubious tangential GamerGate connection in this article.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:56, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

This sounds like the same situation with the media on that Blizzcon speech, where many wanted to interpret a simple head nod to an interview question as a full-out accusation against GG (with the higher quality, more neutral sources properly identifying that it was an implied reference). We have to remember that it is factually true there are third parties out there not associated with GG either direction that want to stir the pot, and this sounds like a case of just that. --MASEM (t) 19:44, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

It was the 8chan "raid board" /baphomet/ who seem like the old 4chan /b/ that just love to raid and doxx everyone they can RetΔrtist (разговор) 10:02, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

• I think it definitely belongs in the article, since there has been a huge amount of coverage connecting it to GamerGate; but we should be careful to source exactly what they say. In other words, we can report that most coverage has connected it to GamerGate, that the victim connected it to GamerGate, and so on, and that several news articles have noted that the anonymous nature of 8chan makes it difficult or impossible to confirm. But I think it's clear that sufficient sources have found the possibility of a connection to be notable enough and credible enough that we need to cover it here; it is, for the better or worse, a significant event in the coverage of GamerGate by reliable sources. The fact that an extensive list of reliable news sources found her allegations credible enough to publish is sufficient to include it in our article. --Aquillion (talk) 23:05, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

State they are concerned about ethics in the lede

Should stay in the lede per our sources and the Debate over ethics allegations section. Per our sources, often when the supporters say they are concerned about ethical issues, what they're talking about aren't actually ethical issues. — Strongjam (talk) 21:39, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Ethics in journalism and misogynistic attacks are not mutually exclusive. Using the term "state they are" versus "are" is simply not supportable as NPOV representation. Both are covered. We don't couch beliefs in scare quotes or weasel words and it's why we don't use such equivocal language to describe the harassment. There is no reason to doubt that many gamergate supporters are concerned about ethics in gaming journalism and is a sourcable and true statement. It takes nothing away from harassment, misogyny or sexism. There are no sources that support "Many gamergaters state X but they really don't believe it." It's a false dichotomy and is language that is to be avoided. --DHeyward (talk) 21:59, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Per our sources:

• The heart of their complaints had less to do with the ethics of how mainstream gaming sites were reporting, but what they were reporting.
• acutely aware of their own negative image, members redirected the movement's public-facing purpose to be about ethics in game journalism — an agenda that was literally set after journalists reacted to a week of swatting, rape and death threats directed towards both men and women in the industry
• While many claimed this movement was about calling out ethical lapses in videogame journalism, I was astounded and appalled by the misogynistic and threatening nature of some posts

I'm sure there's more if you want to go digging. — Strongjam (talk) 22:05, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

It might be worth explaining what they mean by 'ethics', although I would worry that that could go into too much detail in the lead or give one particular interpretation too much weight. In general, though, the article makes it clear that the ethics issues are intimately connected to the culture war issues (in that the members of GamerGate seem to, generally, believe that their ideological and cultural opponents have established a vast media conspiracy in order to produce and get people to consume media in line with their views, and to suppress any sort of news coverage that threatens this conspiracy.) Obviously that is a fairly WP:FRINGE belief, but I feel, somewhat, as if just saying "ethics" is potentially misleading, since it whitewashes just how out-there much of the underlying thinking here really is. --Aquillion (talk) 23:14, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The ethics are about more than the culture war issues, according to proponents. The ethics issue didn't just arise with Quinn, it was a long-standing complaint in gamer circles that got co-opted in a sense by this broader cultural broadside. This is why we need better sources for this article, since so much of it provides the appearance of this being a recent complaint. Thargor Orlando (talk) 23:37, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

More specifically, we, as a neutral work, have to consider what has been reported about the GG's concerns in reliable sources as fully legitimate, and not take the attitude that the press has done that GG is not legit. That the press concerns the movement illegitimate will be a significant portion of the article, no doubt, but when we are describing what GG wants, we cannot play the game of says "yeah, that's what they say but we really know what they are going for" that some of the current language implicates (eg the changes in the article lede today). We are not to try to judge the group's motives either way in WP's voice, though certainly can express the strong negative complaints from others as part of criticism of the group. --MASEM (t) 23:42, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

No. This is a misconception and a misreading of policy. There is no requirement that we consider anything "fully legitimate" just because someone says it. Misplaced Pages is based on what reliable sources say, and if reliable sources overwhelmingly and essentially unanimously say something, Misplaced Pages will present that point of view as predominant. We can and should say that some people believe otherwise, but the very point of the due weight, balancing aspects and equal validity sections of the NPOV policy is to refute the idea that Misplaced Pages has to present anyone and everyone's ideas as "fully legitimate." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:58, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

And the reliable sources overwhelmingly say that gamergate supporters are concerned with ethics in journalism and also say that the concern has been overshadowed by the harassment of quinn, wu, et al. They do NOT say that gamergate supporters are not concerned with ethics in journalism or that the view by most gamergate supporters was false or insincere. --DHeyward (talk) 00:09, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, no, the reliable sources routinely say that the ethics claims are false and are largely a facade for culture-warring against feminists and others who are interested in the diversification of video gaming culture. Strongjam above presented a number of those sources, and there are literally dozens more if you want them. Actual experts in media ethics have examined the claims, refuted them and described the movement not as an "ethics" movement but as a culture war. Plainly and specifically expressed in one of the most respected media criticism publications in America, the Columbia Journalism Review: At core, the movement is a classic culture war. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:29, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Understanding that Gjoni was not a gamer and that the gamer community jumped all over the relationship between an indie game developer and a journalist was just the latest in the social justice aspects of gaming. There are many female mainstream gaming executives simply not involved that are much more notable, accomplished and influential than indies likw Quinn and Wu. Sarkeesian has been around a lot longer than Gjoni's post. This isn't new and "Gamergate" is just the latest name for a long standing feud. If we really dig, we'd find transgender vs. radical feminist, indie vs. large commercial gaming companies, modern feminist vs. libertarian feminist, commercial vs. "free" software, etc, etc. The expectation that the press is neutral w.r.t. these issues with full disclosure is not new. --DHeyward (talk) 00:19, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

It is required to be neutral and write about GG in a legitimate light with as little as we can from reliable sources. That's the definition of neutrality, that's what WP:IMPARTIAL gives, that's what WP:FRINGE says to do. We have to document without assumption of right or wrongdoing. We have plenty of sources that will be critical of GG and call out what they think is illegitimate, that's fine, but that's just opinion and cannot be presented as fact. --MASEM (t) 01:13, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

(ec) It is synthesis to construct what most gamergater supporters are concerned with by a sampling of discussion boards. The WP article discusses the antics of the discussion forums. That in no way shapes it as mutually exclusive from supporters views about ethics in journalism. Gjoni named Grayson because he was a journalist. NotYourShield arose from it, etc, etc. It takes nothing away from the outrageous behavior and isn't used an excuse. There are no named misogynists yet we still have large sections on misogyny. There are named individuals that are concerned with gaming journalism ethics. These two concepts are not mutually exclusive and I've yet to see any proof that the concern about ethics is not widely held. WP:WEASEL, scare quotes, words to watch and other guidelines explicitly call out such language as unnecessary and an NPOV problem. --DHeyward (talk) 00:02, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Synthesis is what our sources are supposed to do. As the majority viewpoint of our sources are that gamergate supporters say it's about ethics in journalism, but that their issues aren't actually about ethics then the article should reflect that per WP:NPOV. Scare quotes doesn't come into it as there is no expression of doubt. "GG supporters supposedly are concerned about ethics" would be scare qoutes, and weasel is fine in the lede as long as its covered in the article. Indeed, if it wasn't then we should remove it entirely from the lede. — Strongjam (talk) 00:31, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

It is not even weasel to have "GG say but ethics" - thats basic WP:SAID. Proclaiming that "GG are about ethics " is the unalowable WP:OR as the multiple reliable sources state otherwise. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:48, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

−

Yes, this. The key thing to understand is that our description of GamerGate -- even what GamerGate wants, insofar as that can be characterized when it comes to a disparate, leaderless group -- has to come from reliable sources. Masem said, above, that we have to take what has been "reported about the GG's concerns in reliable sources as fully legitimate"; the thing is, we are doing this; that includes taking reliable sources that say "GamerGate's concerns are mostly about defeating Social Justice Warriors by any means necessary, and really have nothing to do with ethics beyond a vague belief that there is a vast unethical Social Justice Conspiracy that must be defeated", we have to take that seriously. And that (or parts of that) are what the vast majority of reliable sources say! When The Columbia Journalism Review (and many other reliable sources) say that GamerGate is not actually about ethics -- that its ethics concerns are centered around a conspiracy theory intended to provide support for their ongoing culture war -- that is something we must report. I would add to this that the characterization of their ethical concerns as a conspiracy theory used in support of their long-running culture war actually does not contradict most of what the sources we have that claim to be speaking for GamerGate say -- most of those sources, at least the ones we have in the article, seem to agree that the ethics issues are fundamentally about fighting against a conspiracy as part of a long-running culture war. They would just describe it not as a "conspiracy theory" but as a "conspiracy fact"; they believe that their really is a vast unethical "social justice conspiracy" or somesuch that must be defeated. This means that we can most accurately cover the ethical concerns by placing them in the context of that culture war; as far as I can tell, no reliable commentators on any side of the debate are now claiming that it exists outside that context. --Aquillion (talk) 02:21, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

No, that's clearly an opinion, that they feel that GG is not really about ethics. We no way can report that as fact. It is a fact that many sources believe that GG is not about ethics - that point can be made for certain, but not in WP's voice. Facts do not come from common public opinion. --MASEM (t) 02:28, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

When it comes to the better sources, it is not merely an opinion; it is a detailed analysis by reputable sources with a strong reputation for fact-checking and a broadly-trusted ability to interpret and explain cultural phenomenon like these. It is an opinion in the sense that any expert who writes about anything is ultimately only giving their opinion, no matter how well-backed and well-researched that opinion might be; but it is one of sufficient strength and authority -- and with a sufficiently broad consensus -- that we can report it as fact; it is not an opinion in the sense that we use that word in our policies. Facts absolutely do not come from popular opinion, yes; but (at least when it comes to the facts we report in our voice as an encyclopedia) they do come from a consensus among reliable sources, and that is what we have here. They could be wrong; ultimately, even the most reliable journalist or scientist or expert has to use their opinion to interpret results, after all. But as an encyclopedia, we can only follow the consensus among reliable sources. Our articles on other topics do not say "Scientists believe evolution works like this..." or "Historians and political scientists say that America is a representative democracy...", even though there are surely people who would disagree with those statements, and even though you could reasonably say that ultimately it is just the opinions of those people. Instead, we survey the reliable sources and, when there seems to be universal or near-universal agreement on some point, we report it as fact. Beyond that, as I mentioned in my edit above (which edit-conflicted with your reply, sorry!), I am not convinced that there is as much of a conflict between two sides here as people are saying. At this point the vast majority of sources, regardless of what perspective they say they're writing from, seem to agree that the ethics concerns are fundamentally about cultural warfare in the sense of fighting an (alleged or actual) unethical conspiracy by what they view as their ideological and cultural opponents. --Aquillion (talk) 02:37, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Your examples are scientific and institutional, this is an article about a group of people. You can't say that a group of people are "near-universally" anything as fact when there are sources that dispute the claims of the others. Weedwacker (talk) 02:42, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

The only source that would be considered an expert or close to academic in this whole swath of articles is the CRJ, and even then he was only looking at the media treatment of the situation, not as a social analysis of GG. Not unreliable in discussing this, but far from something akin to a peer-reviewed paper or a court of law to establish their statements about GG as fact. Certainly, in time, we can expect actual studies on this matter (the pieces on DIRGA, for example, promise years of academic analysis of why GG came to be), and perhaps in time, it might be concluded that based on a survey of the people that claim to be GG supporters they were less interested in ethics and more interested in harassment, at which point we can talk to it as a fact. But at this point, the statement that "GG is not about ethics" is a clearly contentious statement, and while the popular opinion is that is it true, we cannot act like it is, but instead describe the predominate view that it is true. We don't call the Westboro church a hate group, but reflect that most everyone else considered them that while noting what they consider themselves as. We don't call ISIS evil but reflect that they are broadly considered that way while describing what they have stated as their beliefs/approach without judgement. That's the same manner we are required to take here and trying to do anything to make GG look illegitate in WP's voice without established facts towards saying it is illegitimate is against NPOV. It is very easily to slip into this mode considered that GG is generally strongly disliked by most everyone but we are still a impartial encyclopedia and have to put that emotion behind us and not slip into this mode. --MASEM (t) 02:49, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Again, it's not a dichotomy. "Group A likes meat. Group A is largely known for eating cheese" doesn't mean we say "Group A says they like meat but group A really eats a lot of cheese." I don't really care how many sources say they eat cheese. This is the scenario we have here. Gamergate supporters are concerned with journalism ethics. It doesn't matter how many times people also say misogynistic things on forums. The first thing most reliable sources say is that the hashtag is not really a movement as it's leaderless without a platform. One of its most notable group action is getting Intel adverts pulled from a game review journal. They didn't do that with hate filled screeds and threats written to female Intel employees. This is why journalism ethics is considered the common and binding force of the hashtag. It also has nothing to do with the overshadowing threats and doxing that also occurred. As a neutral observer of reliable sources, we note both as both are true and relevant and sourced according to weight. More importantly there are people associated with the hashtag and all of the named persons associate with the ethics and transparency in journalism aspect and portraying that in any way as insincere or that they really support misogynist and sexist attacks on women is a false light portrayal. It is a synthesis of POV to juxtapose pieces against each other as if both can't be true. --DHeyward (talk) 02:50, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

When the sources say "Group A says they like meat but group A really eats a lot of cheese." thats what we say. And that is what the sources say: "Some Gamergaters claim to be about 'ethics' but they are actually about harassment and opposition to "social justice warriors" and women and anyone who doesnt by into their 'but ethics'" -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:29, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

No, that's not how Misplaced Pages sourcing works. We can say those source say that, but if it is clearly not an established fact (popular public opinion is not fact), we cannot say it in WP's voice. --MASEM (t) 05:32, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Of course it is. we follow the reliable sources in proportion to the manner the views are held in those sources without our personal interpretation to make up for the poor poor gamergaters not being given any credence by any of the sources because we dont get to be their white knights to make up for the fact that an unorganized mob with no idea of what ethics actually is has been dismissed as complete nonsense. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:31, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

No, you are missing several factors of NPOV, specifically IMPARTIAL and SUBJECTIVE, that we have to include as well. Misplaced Pages cannot in any way attack or make any direct negative claims about GG if we are to be neutral, even if the press has opted to do so. We will report the press's opinions as that is the more predominate view per UNDUE/WEIGHT, no question, but we cannot state opinions as fact without ascertaining who stated that opinion. We have to write in a clinically impartial tone, and that means even when reporting what is said as a popular opinion by the press and attributing to them, we cannot glorify or extenuate the wording to even look like we are agreeing with that view or disagreeing with the GG view. We're not trying to make GG look good (the sources don't even go there save for a minority, so we can't go there), but we also cannot attack them in an article on WP, even in a subtle language manner, even if that's the popular opinion of the press - we don't do it anywhere else on WP, we aren't going to start here. --MASEM (t) 06:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

So instead of the lede having a statement of the majority of commentator views on the ethics, you changed it to an ambigious "commenters say it" which can be interpreted as either 'all' or 'some'. I'm in full agreement that most commentators dismiss the ethics claims but it misrepresents the sources to say the only disagreeing source is Milo Yiannopoulos or that all commentators dismiss them. Weedwacker (talk) 05:43, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Explanation of Tony Sidaway's revert of an edit by Weedwacker

In this edit weedwacker (talk · contribs) removes from the lede the statement that "commentators have near-universally dismissed the concerns has focused on as being trivial or unrelated to ethics".

That statement is simply a summary of the section called "Debate over ethics allegations." Removing that text lessens the correspondence between the article body and the lede in a serious way.

That is why I restored the text to the lede by reverting the edit. --TS 02:54, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate you explaining your reasoning. I mainly took issue with the insertion of the term "near-universally" so I reworded it while leaving the importance of the sentence. I probably shouldn't have just reverted the first time around. "Near-universal" is a phrase that implies almost nobody ever disagreeing with the statement, which isn't true. Just because the number of sources disagreeing with that are a minority does not mean they are going against a universal agreement. Weedwacker (talk) 02:59, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

The vast majority of reliable sources (which we use to draw information about public opinion) state that gamergate is near-universally publicly derided. I don't think 'most' accurately conveys what the reliable sources have said- perhaps there's a stronger word to use than 'most' that would be more appropriate in this case? PeterTheFourth (talk) 03:32, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

This is a statement about the ethical concerns, not about whether the movement is publicly derided. 'a majority of commentators' work better for you? 'Near-universally' is an opinion about the weight that marginalizes sources that don't agree with that statement to the point that it makes them seem non-existent. It has no place in the lede stating that ethical concerns are near-universally dismissed in an article that addresses ethical policy changes by a number of websites as a result of the controversy. Weedwacker (talk) 03:45, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

You've got me: I should have said "the concerns Gamergate has focused on have been near-universally publicly derided.", as I meant to in the context of the discussion. Do we have the number on the reliable sources which indicate one way or another that these concerns are trivial or unrelated to ethics, or which indicate these concerns are non-trivial or related to ethics? Would this reflect a majority/minority situation (which could be a small difference in opinion), or should we say something like 'vast majority of commentators' (a large difference in opinion regarding these concerns)? PeterTheFourth (talk) 03:50, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I think use of the term "universally" should be barred on all of Misplaced Pages, because my experience has been that never is something universal and any use of that term is typically indicative of agenda-driven editing.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 06:36, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps you would like to write an essay on the use of the word 'universally'? PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:38, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

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