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Disruptive talk page notices by User:SPECIFICO

SPECIFICO (talk · contribs · count · api · block log)

As noted elsewhere, User:SPECIFICO explicitly has stated he is an Austrian School economist who thinks those connected to the Ludwig von Mises Institute which he sees as a competing economics faction are "hijackers" and "multi-level marketing" schemers. He has made biased edits and reverts on several related articles and his POV is so strong he fails or refuses per IDIDNTHEARTHAT to understand clear explanations of policy. He now has taken to leaving me eight questionable and even baseless Talk page "Notices" over the last two weeks, including three under one header, that look like attempts to disrupt my comments and editing. He is starting to do this as well to User talk:Id4abel who also has problems with his editing on these articles.

• June 15: Edit warring warning regarding this diff at Austrian economist Jesús Huerta de Soto article, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#SOTO.

This was a false accusation of 3rr where I had to explain his own edit warring to him.

• June 20: Three different warning notices at once regarding this diff at an RfC on another topic, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#Section_header.

I did launch into a general soapbox discussion of editing issues, but it obviously was not a personal attack on another editor, one who I was quite unfamiliar with. And I did strike it.

• June 21: Disruptive editing warning regarding this diff at WP:OR Noticeboard, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#OR_noticeboard.

Because I complained about User:SPECIFICO coming to the WP:OR noticeboard to dismiss policy issues and refusing to discuss policy. See the seven section discussion of his WP:OR entries to Huerta de Soto article.

• June 26: Edit warring complaint regarding this diff at Huerta de Soto article, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#Skousen.

My first revert of WP:OR discussed at both Talk:Jesús_Huerta_de_Soto#More_WP:OR_using_Skousen and Talk:Jesús_Huerta_de_Soto#Removal_of_Barry-related_WP:OR.2FSynth.

• June 27: Edit war warning regarding this diff at Austrian economist Murray Rothbard article, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#Rothbard.

My first revert of new POV controversial material. The article had been protected for two days previously because of my June 2 3rr/Edit Warring complaint about User:SPECIFICO trying to denigrate Rothbard. This time SPECIFICO was removing the fact that Rothbard is an economist from the first sentence, despite four solid refs saying so and despite previous talk page rejection of such a suggestion. This is a prime example of his extreme bias against competing Austrian economists which leads to his disruptive editing.

• June 28: Off topic personal remarks warning regarding this diff at Murray Rothbard RfC, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#June_2013.

After taking my advice to start an RfC on Rothbard as an economist, SPECIFICO objected that I wrote "Sources are what counts on Misplaced Pages, not editors' personal opinions and WP:OR." (This in reply to his criticizing my RfC support for economist.)

Thanks for any help. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 19:59, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

• Note At first glance, there does seem to be some merit as to the unnecessary aggressiveness. I don't have time to dig deep tonight, but hopefully someone will. Bumping because they needs to be addresses and not just archived. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Carolmooredc Addition: Thinking about it, realized the last three talk page notices came after I put a talk page message about Wikihounding on his talk page (corrected at this diff) because he followed me in 30 hours to 4 pages he had not edited before and there either reverted me or left a negative comment. So maybe this became his new mode of harassment. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 12:54, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

  Editor SPECIFICO seems to be in a habit of handing out Warning with citations to WP policies to any user who has reverted his change as seen here or here or here or here(even this editor warned him for wiki hounding) (and might be many more - as edit history for user talk shows a persistent trend of showering warning to a particular editor for a period of time and then moving on to some one else - depending on who he is having an argument with) -as this usually seems to happen to any editor he might be involved in argument over content - Carol Moore just might be his recent favorite.  A m i t  ❤  17:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

On the other hand this should be read through for the history these two editors have had  A m i t  ❤  18:51, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

: FYI, I do refer to that ANI in my June 27th entry above. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 22:48, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

The edit history shows a campaign to revise articles that touch upon Austrian Economics to push readers toward viewing that school of economics as a crank theory. Supposedly SPECIFICO is an Austrian economist so this whole thing makes little sense. I live in a mostly free country where people are allowed to support most any view they like, and advocate that view to others, but Misplaced Pages has different goals. The wikihounding that followed has not yet reached epic proportions, but it has grown well into the realm of unacceptable. Using reasonable sounding edit descriptions that conceal the actual actions taken, making a few useful edits to make finding the dishonest ones harder, citing respected sources and half sticking to what the sources actually said, deleting a claim with a valid cited source and attempting to defend the delete with no source whatsoever, and so on. It is masterful gaming of the system. I applaud the intelligence behind the campaign. There is dedication and craftiness that would be one of the biggest assets ever if applied to improving articles rather than used to push unsupported propaganda against a theory onto an unfamiliar population.

My first encounter with this editor was at 20:42 on 8 June 2013 where I replaced uncited and badly slanted text with cited text that better follows the neutrality policy within the Hans-Hermann Hoppe article. I think the second encounter is when the wikihounding began. This is were I think this Misplaced Pages system has a giant flaw in that it is much easier for an editor dedicated to making the article push one point of view rather than easier for the collaborative effort that Wikipiedia is supposed to encourage.

The first abuse of the edit war warning only resulted in a prolonged argument about how the three revert rule means whatever SPECIFICO says that it means.

The second abuse of the edit war warning had no response from SPECIFICO at all. Abel (talk) 17:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

User Abel's analysis of User:Specifico's modus operandi is excellent, though it would take a huge WP:ANI to document it all with diffs. It's just easier to document the most obviously behavioral manifestations.

As we all know, such subtle disruptive/tenditious editing can cause a lot of anger, hurts collaboration and can lead to edit warring. I'm quite burned out after a couple months of it with User:Specifico and barely have the energy to finish off several new or improved sections on articles on other topics that were interrupted when I first noticed this destructive editing pattern on a couple articles I've watched for a few years, as well as related BLPs. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 04:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• In my opinion, supported by my inspection of his editions and my encounters in talk pages with him, he doesn't edit articles about austrianism trying to enhance the material, with definitions, perspectives, and critics in a neutral way. Instead, I believe he destroy the articles when he tries to harm the intelectual reputation of austrian thinkers. He doesn't respect Misplaced Pages policies about consensus and references in the way to achieve the goal of destroy those reputations, and his way to talk to users is totally wrong, it seems he believes he is an battle field with "enemies" that should be exterminate. I don't know if he is concious of the diference of an hostile schoolar debate and what are the porpouses of Misplaced Pages talks.--Sageo (talk) 16:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• More evidence to support my point about how this system has an enormous design flaw in that it took SPECIFICO seconds to pepper the article with failed verification, not in citation given, and such tags with completely blank edit summaries yet took me I don't know how long to hunt down and type up exact quotes to show how each and every one of those tags was complete and utter nonsense. Abel (talk) 18:58, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I should note that this one article alone has more of that type of attack. These three were together and so easier to find. Usually the attacks are performed with far more stealth. Also, this is just one article. Given the number of edits made, there are likely hundreds more to track down and correct. Abel (talk) 19:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• How many boards have you been to about Specifico now? As I recall they all failed to get any response. OR, NPOV, BLP etc Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

June 15th - Notice that you appeared to be edit warring. Edit warring does not require 3rr. You can edit war with less or more reversions. Given that you were repeatedly removing sourced content, this can be considered edit-warring without crossing the 3rr bright line.

June 21st - Given you had already raised this as various places, it could quite easily be seen as disruptive editing. Close to forum shopping.

June 26th - More reversion despite no traction on the OR arguments.

June28th - Given that you have repeatedly tried to get Specifico sanctioned for NPOV, OR, BLP violations at various noticeboards (and failed), your comments could certainly be taken by Specifico as a personal attack on his editing. I read that comment as you accusing him of editing out of his opinion and OR rather than from a source-base.

In short, specifico should not be templating you so much. You should not be dragging him to every noticeboard under the sun when you are in a content dispute. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

So those were all responses to CarolMooreDC's original dated comments above?Abel (talk) 21:28, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

To User:Only in death: First, of course, you only are summarizing his/her claims all still at User talk:Carolmooredc, not my responses and corrections. Also, note that two editors were against Specifico's addition of WP:OR content unrelated to the subject of the Biography on the talk page but we didn't want to edit war by reverting User:Specifico again. I went to WP:BLPN with the OR issue and no one responded; who knows why. I asked at Editors assistance (my question) if it would be ok to go to WP:ORN since no response. Two longtime editors said yes. So I did. So that is not "dragging him/her to every noticeboard under the sun when you are in a content dispute." And this WP:ANI is a behavioral issue.

Not to ignore your mention of NPOVN - This NPOVN was regarding another editor soapboxing; when Specifico demanded evidence, and since s/he often collaborated with that editor in soapboxing, I provided evidence of them both doing it together and/or in his/her biased soapbox. That was Specifico's disruptive behavior of the month of May. I'm sure after this ANI, whatever the outcome, Specifico will find a new disruptive behavior. The only thing that keeps Specifico from totally destroying BLPs of those s/he detests seems to be taking her/him to various noticeboards. And when there are only two or three editors on an article (and s/he ignores the other two even when they explain policy clearly) that is the standard WP:Dispute measure. (I'd try dispute resolution noticeboard but s/he tends to ignore or mock usual Wiki dispute resolution processes.) CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 00:06, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Id4abel has been canvassing like-minded users in order to bring them to this noticeboard thread. — goethean 12:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

How is notifying people who are already involved but possibly not aware, regardless of their feelings, canvassing? Canvassing is trying to recruit people to jump on your side. I only asked that they share their experiences to make this report more complete. Abel (talk) 12:47, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Four points:

1. For CarolMooreDC (and Abel) – just what course of action would you recommend?

• You got me, what options are available? Abel (talk) 21:28, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

2. I have found SPECIFICO to be extremely reluctant to tone down the various warnings posted. This has been disappointing and frustrating for me because I've pointed out that the warnings were ill-founded.

3. Advice on Abel's user talkpage was posted about the need to be more neutral with ANI notification's. A positive response was made by Abel.

4. With this in mind, the concern about votestacking is not a major one. For myself, I consider myself more of a Wikipedian than "like-minded". – S. Rich (talk) 20:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Possible course of action: I can see from user contributions s/he is laying low right now, so I don't know if a short block would even phase her/him. I think User:SPECIFICO would take seriously something like a short topic ban, say a month from Austrian economics topics and related BLPs (and any related topics, like libertarian BLPs and topics, should s/he disrupt them). Then s/he might show some respect for Misplaced Pages processes and for other editors who have an interest in these topics.

Also, Austrian economics/libertarianism/various BLPs involved here are very complicated topics and there are a wide variety of views that different individuals can hold in relation to any of them. Therefore, it should not be assumed that those who are interested in a topic and argue to follow WP policies have some overwhelming bias regarding any topic that is in any way as strong as the explicit negative biases expressed by User:SPECIFICO in user and article talk pages, biases which have led to his/her repeatedly ignoring Misplaced Pages policies. This false and simplistic allegation has been made by User:SPECIFICO in the past with no real evidence and inferred by one or two others since then. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 21:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think a topic ban is appropriate. A substantial portion of SPECIFICO's topic edits have been worthwhile. He has more of a problem with editor interaction, which I've seen and described as high-handed at times. Rather, a one-way WP:IBAN would work better, where SPECIFICO could not violate the 4 restrictions described in IBAN. Who would be the beneficiaries of the IBAN? CarolMooreDC and Abel are certainly two candidates. For myself, I would not care to be included (as SPECIFICO may interact with me). If other editors wish to be included as beneficiaries of the IBAN, then (assuming they'd had some difficulties with SPECIFICO), they could say to him "I want your IBAN extended to include me because of ....." – S. Rich (talk) 02:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I do not dispute that 90% of User:SPECIFICO's edits were more or less within policy guidelines. The problem is the 10% which were very biased and where he refused to follow policy, or listen to other editors in regard to policy, and would ridicule other editors or the subjects of BLPs when he was challenged.

Moreover, User:SPECIFICO's refusal to interact and reply to policy concerns, including ones raised by you (SRich32977) on several articles, has been part of the problem, so it's not the solution. Only after I left the following in a response to one of his alleged edit warring alerts did he quickly respond to four or five outstanding issues raised on article talk pages. At this diff I wrote: Also note per various edits of yours, quoting WP:BRD, "If one skips the Discussion part, then restoring one's edit is a hostile act of edit warring and is not only uncollaborative, but could incur sanctions, such as a temporary block." And I've noted several cases on several articles where you have done problematic edits of materials others have reverted without bothering to respond on the talk page. Any IBAN would be just an excuse for User:SPECIFICO to keep doing biased edits and then ignore others complaints and revert them.

It would help if noticeboards were more responsive on complicated/abstruse/non-sexy economics-related issues we need to put before them. (And with BLPs it can be hard to figure out sometimes which noticeboard we should go to first, etc.) User:SPECIFICO has been known sometimes to give in to community opinions which go against him. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 13:25, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I was tossing up commenting on this thread but I'm jumping in for a couple of reasons: 1, Carol's very first diff is from a conversation between myself and SPECIFICO - part of a 3-to-4-way discussion about cleaning up the walled garden that is the collection of Ludwig von Mises Institute-related BLPs. (Which brings me to...) 2, Carol's last point, which I think is the most pertinent one here. The community isn't responsive to threads like this because a few minutes of looking at the history suggests this is all one giant content issue, because there is one giant content issue here. Editor behaviour is distinct from that, and should be dealt with, but it is obviously difficult to separate the two when they are so intertwined. Without any prior knowledge or interest in the subject, I was asked by another editor if I could help clean up a couple of related BLPs. I did (a bit) and then organically progressed to a couple of related BLPs (and they are very much "related"). For notability, many rely almost entirely on "significant coverage" from other institute figures, whose articles in turn rely on coverage from other institute figures, whose articles in turn rely on coverage from other institute figures, and so on. Each is published extensively in blogs and journals and periodicals that are related to the institute because those are the publications most interested in their views. Very few of them would be considered "mainstream". That doesn't mean they aren't notable but many of the issues relate to how their work is responded to by institute colleagues. Should the views of institute colleagues count for more or less than external non-institute responders? Should we allow notability to be established only (or even primarily) by institute-related coverage given many are unquestionably reliable sources with regard to libertarian economic theory. Part of the problem is that the walled garden was established long ago and those responsible have had no desire to clean it up (some of those editors being the subjects of the articles themselves). Editors like SPECIFICO have tried to clean it up (that 90% Carol refers to) but being of a different school of thought there is obviously a motivation for doing so. Such a clean up requires some frank discussion, some hard decisions and some ruthless weed-whacking. The issue is where that weed-whacking becomes editor-whacking. If anything, I would suggest a short topic-ban to give SPECIFICO a chance to calm down and re-find that line between weed-whacking and editor-whacking, though it would seem he has self-imposed a short break as a result of this thread anyway. As for the content, there's probably a good opportunity for interested editors to get together and work on a mini-project/editing drive to clean up economics BLPs (and not just institute-related ones). Stalwart111 06:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Alleged hounding by Badmintonhist

User:Badmintonhist's behavior, largely but not exclusively in recent days, indicates that thwarting my editing constitutes a substantial part of his participation on Misplaced Pages. He has followed me to article after article (here is a warning I left him earlier today about it, which did not stop him from continuing). In this edit to a talk page, he states that he is unwilling to accept any version of an article that I propose. He has lately decided that my disagreement with him must mean I have Asperger's. I would like to request administrator intervention (whether a sanction or a friendly push) in order to get Badmintonhist to stop harassing me through hounding and comments. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps she can't help herself but Roscelese habitually makes snarky, insulting comments, in edit summaries and the talk pages, about pretty much everyone who disagrees with her, particularly if the subject is a political hot button issue. It would behoove a fair minded administrator to follow this pattern which will reveal one of the most consistently rude editors in the Misplaced Pages enterprise. Everyone gets testy at times. In the case of Roscelese, however, insulting what she perceives as the political opposition is simply her standard modus operandi. 02:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)Badmintonhist (talk) 02:18, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This has every appearance of WP:HOUNDING. I note that Badmintonhist says nothing in defense of the purported hounding or stalking activities. Binksternet (talk) 02:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

The editor interaction chart is here. Most of the interaction is Roscelese editing an article first, then Badmintonhist coming in afterward. Binksternet (talk) 02:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Also, Badmintonhist, if you're going to make claims of an editor making insulting comments or that she has a pattern of this behavior in regard to political opposition, I'd suggest posting some evidence. I, Jethrobot (note: not a bot!) 02:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC):

A fine idea. Since I don't generally find myself if this sort of forum I'm rather naive about them. For starters let's say that her most recent exchange with me: "Do you or do you not know what a press release is?" followed by "welp" (edit summary) "So that's a 'no'. Good to know." is quite typical. She generally likes to claim that folks who disagree with her are incompetent. Give me a little time and I'll find plenty of examples. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC)PS As for the supposed hounding we are attracted to the same kinds of issues and I often find her editing contentious and partisan. By the way, I've been somewhat successful in amending articles that Roscelese and also Binksternet (who has weighed in here on her side) have tried to steer in a different direction, which may help to explain things a bit. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:35, 1 July 2013 (UTC) PS: The articles on Pro-life feminism and Maafa 21 are examples.

• Far more concerning is this edit summary; an editor who thinks that edit-warring is OK if your fourth revert is 24 hours and 1 minute past the first one is someone who hasn't read WP:EW, which states "Any appearance of gaming the system by reverting a fourth time just outside the 24-hour slot is likely to be treated as a 3RR violation". I almost always block editors I find gaming the system like that, so I would strongly suggest that you don't. Black Kite (talk) 13:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Not only that, but the three edits from today at this article suggest that a reading of WP:BRD might not go amiss either. The IP does not need consensus to revert Badminstonhist's edit, and BH should not have immediately re-reverted. The more I look at this, the more problematic it appears to be. Black Kite (talk) 13:50, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• But these reverts mentioned above by this IP edit's and its summaries bring doubt too(these are the only two edits done by this IP). This might be just an involved editor logged out to make a point.  A m i t  ❤  17:56, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I assure you, it's not me. I would not have been violating 1RR in order to revert, so had I desired to do so, I would have done so under my own account. Whether it's someone else, I don't know. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I went back about 15 months ago figuring that this was around the time I first had significant interaction with Roscelese . Instead I found a series of what are supposed to be "edit summaries" directed at her fellow editor Collect, who, judging by his numerous barnstars, at least, seems to be a respected contributor. Here's some examples:

• enough trolling
• ahaha so much fail, Collect
• blah blah blah
• I'm seeing some real WP:COMPETENCE issues here
• Supporting what you write with sources? That's crazy!
• How many times will I have to repeat myself
• Oh yeah, I'd forgot you're one of those people who wave the BLP flag to cover up POV-pushing
• More nonsense from edit warrior

Those are just her "edit summaries." I didn't look too closely at the actual "dialogue" which took place at the Talk page for Pro-life feminism but I did catch this one:

Where the hell do you get the idea that you can make these rubbish claims about the monolith of Irish women?

Around this same time she told another editor "your edits are ridiculous" and chided someone else on his/her presumed bigotry. I'm sure I'll have more examples of the Rosclese style later. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:31, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This is all very interesting (and I'm sure it will be even more interesting to read that discussion), but none of it explains or justifies your hounding, stated intention to prevent me from editing, or "diagnoses." Does this mean that you recognize that you were wrong and are planning to change your behavior? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:54, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This really doesn't have anything to do with what appears to be, at first glance, a pretty clear cut case of hounding. If Collect has an issue with Roscelese, he can bring it up himself, and Collect is no stranger to commenting on noticeboards and such. Can you address the issue of what appears to be a case of you following around another editor to unrelated articles and not bring up irrelevant comments that are over a year old. Gamaliel (talk) 17:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Regarding my supposed hounding, as I have said, we tend to be on different sides of topics we are both interested in. As for the article on Care Net I had already effectively relented on the point about CommonwelthCitizen's version rather than Roscelese's version being our starting point, by editing from Roscelese's version. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Here's an idea. Instead of self-righteously declaring yourself superior based on someone else's alleged wrongdoings and your own amateur psychoanalysis, you ditch this sort of behavior entirely, then you report it when someone else engages in it. The issue here is your uncivil behavior, which you're beginning to escalate yet again. I've talked to you about this before, and you are well aware this is a problem. I suggest you both avoid each other for a few days before trouts and blocks result from this discussion. You've already crossed the line with your comments above, please try to control yourself. Gamaliel (talk) 18:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm utterly puzzled by what you found objectionable about my previous comment. Surely not the term "aspies" which people with Asperger's syndrome themselves use, and even if you did object to that, which you shouldn't, what was objectionable about myfirst sentence? I find this all quite curious. The foulest of four letter words can pass muster here but a comment that someone finds vaguely insensitive gets canned. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:58, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

You should not be commenting in such a personal matter about other editors, especially ones you are in a conflict with. I don't understand why that would be such a curious concept. Gamaliel (talk) 19:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I think User:Badmintonhist is being a hypocrite when he criticizes Roscelese: "insulting what she perceives as the political opposition is simply her standard modus operandi" because this is exactly how I see Badmint's behavioral pattern on talkpages. He seems to prefer taking jabs at other editors rather than discuss content issues, and takes disagreement personally. He has also encouraged battleground behavior in other editors, e.g. at the SPLC and Media Matters articles, so I'm not surprised to see his conduct brought here for further scrutiny. El duderino 03:56, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Commenting to make sure this doesn't get archived without a resolution. That will only allow it to happen again. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:50, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Apparent block evasion by RetroArch editor

Not sure if this is true block evasion or just that the editor in question has more than one IP address to begin with (or, perhaps, that there's more than one insane individual in that camp), but 77.166.85.169 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is now going around to the same spots as our friend at 84.26.108.111 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (who was blocked on Friday), once again accusing people of being "technically challenged", playing favorites with Higan (emulator) (and on his own talk page), etc.

The attitude is just the tiniest bit calmer at the moment, but otherwise the same as 84.26. We do happen to have a merge discussion underway at Talk:Higan (emulator), which I was going to formalize today when I had time. But yeah, same general pattern of paranoia, makes me believe this is the same person. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 15:43, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, as you probably saw, I came to this conclusion as well, and outright asked him. I figured he'd probably answer honestly, as he's been rather open and brash about not following policy, but he hasn't edited since... Sergecross73 msg me 15:46, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Possibly meat puppetry, but my money is on sock puppetry. Either way, there is puppetry going on. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 15:50, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Labels like "insane" can be provocative; let's not add more fuel to the fire. bobrayner (talk) 17:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry. It's just that there's been such a history with this person/team that it's hard to imagine what might be going on with them. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 17:49, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This is the original IP he was using. Then he switched to another one, and then back to this one. It's probably a work/home thing. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 05:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Funny how a holy trio (Harizotoh9/KieferSkunk/Sergecross73) are colluding at every opportunity with their paranoid and delusional fantasies that the same person they previously banned is trying to '*ban evade*' / *stalk* / whatever irrational accusations they can come up with.

Funny also how they are allowed to get away with this to the point where they start making inflammatory comments regarding an entire community/team - and how the other Misplaced Pages admins just allow them to run roughshot with this.

Funny also how these same trio are end-user videogame skiddies - totally unqualified to actually make any decisions at all on any of these subjects since their technical merit is rather .... lacking.

Oh well, I'm glad at least one person in here picked up on the rather personal bias that is peppering KieferSkunk's allegations so far (accusations such as someone being 'insane', whatever). I'm wondering - what do your lovely 'Misplaced Pages policies' have to state about ad-hominem attacks, ganging up, stalking and not allowing an entire team to correct you on obvious misinformation?

Frankly, like Squarepusher, I can no longer be bothered to talk to you guys - it looks more and more like a desperate clown show to try to get you guys educated on *anything* in particular. So continue spewing forth your misinformation, delete what you like - it's obvious to three guys in particular, 'neutrality' can not be assumed and it's just a matter of trolling (as evidenced by KieferSkunk's earlier comments - 'Merge: At this point, I have to agree with the folks below that there doesn't appear to be enough reliable source material to warrant a full article. I say merge and redirect. (And that has only a little to do with the rather long and vitriolic dispute with the IP editor claiming to be this project's lead developer.) ' (backtracking on earlier 'votes' he makes because he doesn't like the person). One other example - "Perhaps I've given you way too much slack, and we should have just blocked you four hours ago. Certainly would have been less disruptive" - delusions of grandeur believing he is solely in charge of such decisions. ONe more example - oh wait - that already passed by the Administrators' noticeboard - where you admitted to *trolling* just because you don't like the person involved.

Anyway, since a holy trio has decided to set itself up as judge, jury and executioner, I'd have to say - delete any page you want, censor anything you want, create as much misinformation as you want, believe things based on ignorance - we as developers will no longer try to factually correct you since it seems the facts don't matter.

I have to agree with Squarepusher - you've made yourself look quite bad. I can no longer take this 'encyclopedia' seriously - if this kind of activity and 'decisionmaking goes on', people could rightfully call this the 'Reddit/4chan of encyclopedias'. 77.166.85.169 (talk) 10:06, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Wow, another anti-Misplaced Pages rant... Sergecross73 msg me 13:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Not that I expect it'll make much difference, but people are allowed to change their minds. I voted to give you more time to establish notability in your article. Nothing came of it - only a couple of marginally acceptable sources were offered up at any point in your long diatribes against Misplaced Pages. Based on that (and that ALONE, I'll add), I opted to change my vote to support the redirect - I added the note about the dispute because part of my decision was based on how it didn't appear that you were willing to work constructively with us and nobody else appeared to be willing to work on the article at all.

And as for my "trolling": I apologized directly for engaging in trollish behavior. This is me taking responsibility for actions that were unconstructive. It's me admitting that, yes, I can get riled up, and I occasionally do let people get under my skin, and sometimes I don't handle it the best way possible. I like to think it reflects a level of maturity and self-awareness that people appreciate in communities like this one. Perhaps you might give it a try sometime? — KieferSkunk (talk) — 22:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Last note, btw: You said "we as developers will no longer try to factually correct you since it seems the facts don't matter." As a matter of fact, the applicable policy to that one is Verifiability, Not Truth. Misplaced Pages readers must be able to independently verify your factual statements. Otherwise, it puts your article in the category of "Just take our word for it", which is not how things work here. If you have a problem with that policy, you should take it up at the policy page itself. Keep in mind, though, that that policy is one of Misplaced Pages's core policies, and has gone virtually unchanged for more than a decade, with the consensus of thousands of users. You are certainly welcome to contest it if you think it's wrong, but I'm just guessing here that you're not going to get very far with it if you go in with the attitude you've been displaying here. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 22:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

And lest I be accused of playing favorites with other articles that don't abide by the Notability and Verifiability policies, Misplaced Pages editors are not omniscient. We aren't capable of knowing every single article on the project that doesn't meet those standards. We rely on alert editors who find such content and flag it for review, or in more obvious cases just correct the problem. Someone just pointed out that the MAME article doesn't even meet the standards in its current form. That will need to be addressed too. I just wanted to head off that particular argument at the pass, since I know it would be coming otherwise. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 22:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Further disruption by IP

The IP, out of arguments, has resorted to tagging all my articles for "notability". He made a very clear declaration of doing so in bad faith. I've warned him several times to stop, of no avail. Normally, I'd feel this is so overt that it would invoke the "any reasonable admin" clause of INVOLVED, (Many of his comments show he absolutely has no conception of the GNG, or willingness to learn it, so its impossible for this to be done in good faith anyways) but this guy's already so full of conspiracy theories regarding Misplaced Pages and its editors, I'd really prefer to have someone else help me with this. Sergecross73 msg me 14:42, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Likewise, that's why I'm not enforcing a block on this user either - he's already accused Sergecross, myself and Harizotoh of being part of some "holy trio". Of course, he's also accused Misplaced Pages of being a "hive mind", so I guess it probably doesn't matter that much. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 15:36, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:DUCK

To avoid erroneous accusations in the future, RetroArch is in no way associated with Retrolord. Just thought I'd let y'all know. ★★RetroLord★★ 14:45, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Retrolord, you weren't mentioned anywhere in this thread. Are you not topic banned from "all admin pages (including talk pages), including ANI, AN, AN3, ARB and others"? I don't see how commenting here is at all helpful or necessary.--Jezebel'sPonyo 16:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Thomas Paine1776 move warring and content warring at Decline of Detroit

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Take a look at the log of Decline of Detroit and you will see User:Thomas Paine1776's repeated attempts to whitewash the article of negative content and to move the title to a more bland name. This editor has been overly promotional and disruptive in the past at the Detroit article but had seemingly accepted consensus by staying away from it for the month of June. Now he's on the move again. Binksternet (talk) 01:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• This strikes me as an editing matter for the talk page of the piece. TP1776 clearly has concerns with the POV of the piece and I'm not sure that he's in the wrong about them. Carrite (talk) 02:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• It became a behavioral matter when TP1776 repeated his move after being reverted by two editors, when he repeated his deletions/whitewashes after being reverted by two editors. The guy is uncommunicative, so your suggestion we engage his concerns on the talk page is impractical. There is a long history here, with lots of discussion visible at Talk:Detroit,_Michigan/archive6#Decline_of_Detroit_Section and four more threads underneath that one. You can see TP1776's talk page contributions stopped on March 15, 2013, though we were talking through April about issues crucial to him. Binksternet (talk) 02:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Well, the move bit is simple. It's protected for now, and any move should follow an RM discussion. Placing a note on the talk page with some diffs should help the next time this comes up, if there is a next time. And I do believe that talk page sections/comments are the best way to win an audience for you--more helpful than just diffs. Drmies (talk) 02:37, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with Carrite--I don't really see the whitewashing in their edits. I do, however, believe that the title is itself POV since it's recentist. But moves should be properly discussed, and thus I've move-protected the article for two weeks. Odd how empty the talk page is. Hint. Hint. Drmies (talk) 02:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• POVFork. AfD nuclear may become an option. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 03:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• No, it is a valid topic, supported by dozens of books that bear on the issue of Detroit's decline. Detroit's decline is the top example of urban decay in the US. Binksternet (talk) 03:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

"Detroit's decline is the top example of urban decay in the US." Is POV. We don't write titles to state a thesis. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• It is not a POVFork. It is an expansion of the section found in Detroit, referenced by multiple sources. According to your logic, Fall of the Western Roman Empire is a POVFork of Roman Empire. --NeilN 04:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

According to Fall of the Western Roman Empire, it occurred 1500 years ago. So, no the same logic does not apply. According to your logic, where is the article Decline of Britain? It was surely the world super-power that is no more. Where is the Decline of the British Empire? Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Valid topics. I look forward to you starting the articles. And if "Decline" is POV, so are "Growth", "Boom Years", and "Recovery", all of which are pretty commonly used. --NeilN 13:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

What articles are you talking about with those titles? Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

"Decline of Detroit" is recentist as well as POVish. The Roman Empire fell, that can't be denied, and we've had 1500 years to ponder that. This one, we're right in the middle of it. But "decline" isn't even defined--in economic terms, social terms, what? The wildlife living in those urban prairies or whatever they're called won't think of it as a decline. Maybe the morals of the people of Detroit have improved greatly, or their health, now that they have vegetable yards on every block. Moreover, this is probably going to be over in a few years, at which point it will be clear that the title should have had some years attached to it as well. But we should discuss this on the article talk page. Drmies (talk) 14:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

The article takes the name of the section header in the Detroit article. Here's one with similar headers: History_of_the_Las_Vegas_Valley. Here's a FA with "decline": . Here's one with "economic collapse", "chaos", and "economic miracle": History_of_Germany --NeilN 14:42, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Context. It needs context and perspective. We don't have New York Dropping Dead ref: , and we don't want Misplaced Pages buries Detroit. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to hash out a proposed name somewhere that isn't ANI? The article appears to be move protected, so there is no imminent threat of shenanigans - so how's about we all have a nice cup of coffee and discuss it somewhere? UltraExactZZ ~ Did 14:47, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh no, no more coffee. Why don't you putzz your moneyzz where your mouth izz and clozze thizz thread? Thankzz, Drmies (talk) 18:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Stacking sources in a list in the discussion page illustrates it is not balanced, and hardly encyclopedic content, WP:Is not a newspaper. Actually, its the complaining editor that appears disruptive - removed a good citation regarding revitalization investment previously to begin balancing the section - and seems to have a history of receiving comments regarding behavior. The city is in the midst of a major revitalization, so inserting a 1970s view is an out of date view of the city and gives undue weight. Many cities saw change after the construction of freeways in the 1950s, again not notable, so Detroit's newer configuration, investment, and migration patterns are typical of cities like Atlanta, thus an assertion of decline is opinion. The Detroit region is actually much more populous and probably more prosperous at present than it was in the 1950s, apart from the 2009 recession and subsequent recovery. No mention is given to the role of public sector unions and union agreements in straining the cities finances, the city presently takes in quite a bit of money from casinos, large corporations, and contains massive Chrysler assembly plant, has a major university employer as well. The city of Detroit proper at present has a much higher population density than Atlanta for example, similar in demographics to Detroit, with suburbs and freeways. The comprehensive study of city's residential property does not support the blight theory, in spite of assertions, the Detroit Free Press noted that the good news from the study was the city of Detroit properties are mostly in good condition, the comprehensive study recommended only 1% of properties needed demolition and a substantial portion of those have been demolished or are being demolished, a collection of commercial buildings await developers, or need permits to demolish, thus the pessimistic view is more WP:Funcruft and WP:Coatrack, and not realistic or encyclopedic. The stats also show 2.9% homeowner vacancy in the city of Detroit which is in line with the national average, as opposed the pessimistic assertions of so called sources and blogs, and the city's 15% apartment vacancy rate is not untypical, especially in light of redeveloped high rises seeking tenants. The numbers of crimes in the region have decreased with the suburbanization of the area. The FBI has cautioned not to use its crime data to generate crime rates to compare cities and the American Association of Criminologists has denounced the use of crime rates as an "irresponsible misuse" of data, this is noted in the city's crime article, the use of weasel words such as 'dangerous' cities should be removed, such words are media hysteria, not for and not encyclopedic in tone. The Forbes source (cited by the CBS source) discourages using crime rates as well, such usage is arguably not encyclopedic, and needs to be rewritten in the article. Sources cited are loaded with opinion. One of the sources added is a blog. There is need to clean-up these additions to make them encyclopedic. Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 22:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Sorry, but that's not to the point and it needs paragraphing. This is not the place to wage this content discussion in this way and, at any rate, this didn't address the non-consensual moving you did. Someone close this? Drmies (talk) 22:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

The move is basically to a neutral title for that article, which it should have. Have also sought to accommodate and include the encyclopedic content and reasonable concerns of others including the editor in question.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 23:09, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Fixing the bad sitenotice for VisualEditor

User:Dougweller misuse of full protection

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dougweller fully protected this page directly after editing to his favored version. The protection policy states that "Administrators should not protect or unprotect a page to further their own positions in content disputes." Which this user is apparently doing. He continues to edit through the full protection, despite consensus currently running counter to his views on the talk page. An administrator editing through their own full protection is a clear COI violation. In summary, the protection was out of policy, and the protection to a favored version even more so. His claim in the protection summary, that it is a BLP issue, is not, as far as I can tell based in policy, since "BLP applies to all material about living persons anywhere on Misplaced Pages" while an external link is clearly not 'on Wikipeida'. Regards, Crazynas 19:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Seems like a clear case of WP:IAR to me. And he did say anyone who wanted to challenge the edit could do so privately. Perhaps that would have been a good idea. As the website in question routinely outs Misplaced Pages editors, I assume that's the reason for him removing the URL (and that's all he did). §FreeRangeFrog 19:28, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I did contact him first. Crazynas 21:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd close this, but I'm walking out the door. Suffice it to say that DougWeller has asked for advice and the matter is being discussed. IAR is a perfectly valid policy for this action, which cannot be discussed on wiki. Any questions, feel free to pass them to the Arbitration committee. There is no rush for the article to be unprotected until this is resolved. Worm(talk) 19:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

WTT, just to be clear, you're invoking a Smoke-filled room in this case? Crazynas 19:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

ECx2 - I agree with the above. Dougweller made only two edits - both removing the URL to the subject website. Since the website contains or has contained material that violates our BLP policy, removing a link to that website is reasonable - the content might not be on wikipedia, as Crazynas correctly notes, but it is the inclusion of the material via the link that causes the problem. Given that the inclusion of the link is under discussion at the article's talk page, I'm not sure what else needs to be done here. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 19:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Doug has no authority to protect a page based on his not liking something. He removed the external link, whose presence follows weeks of contentious debate, and was likely disruptive editing in itself. A minute after his removing the link to Wikipediocracy.com, he locked the page, so misusing the tools to get an upper-hand in a content dispute (in which he did not even allow others the opportunity to engage). He has admitted to these gross errors of judgment, but still has not removed the page lock. He should be desysopped immediately. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC) 20:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

It is possible that the reason the article is still protected is because no one wants to touch it with a ten foot pole. And given the reception Doug got when he took administrative action there, I can't say I blame them. Doug seems to have conceded that he overreacted, discussion is now ongoing, and there is no requirement that we have a link to that website RIGHT NOW. Given that consensus in that discussion seems to agree that the link is appropriate, I expect it will be restored shortly. And the earth will continue to spin. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 19:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

This is all a bit silly, since (a) we've seen this movie before and we all know how it turns out; (b) Dougweller left a link to wikipediocracy.com in the article; and (c) there is nothing preventing anyone from creating links to

Might I suggest that all combatants put down their clubs and parse WTT's statement very carefully, but I'll provide a crib sheet for those who don't have time. An Arbitrator has indicated that the admin in question is seeing advice about how to defuse this. The arbitrator further indicates that IAR is applicable and cannot be discussed in public. The arbitrator requests that questions be directed to ArbCom. While I have disagreed (both privately and publically) that ArbCom has made bad decisions in the past, I see no reason to doubt the necessity of restricting the editing of an article about a webiste that is critical of wikipedia. Hasteur (talk) 20:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Dougweller has already admitted his error in protecting the page because he did not like something he'd just removed, the gravity of which increases the longer the improper page-protection stays. ArbCom really has no moral authority to lecture the community about its private wisdom, after its repeated and shameless outing of Malleus F. Next year's ArbCom may have some credibility. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)(Damn, I thought I'd done this when I got home an hour ago, didn't notice the edit conflict - I apologise for that, but my wife was waiting for me to come watch TV.).It's a bit odd that although there was a discussion about my actions at Talk:Wikipediocracy that this was brought here by someone who wasn't involved there and after I posted as follows: "Ok, any Admin who wishes to revert, go ahead. I've managed to get some advice on this and although I don't like links like this specific one at this specific moment, we evidently do allow links that attack or out editors here no matter what they say. Dougweller (talk) 4:27 pm, Today (UTC+1) Dougweller (talk) 4:27 pm, Today (UTC+1)" And yes, this was about outing. Although I may have encountered this editor before, I don't recall any such encounters. I really don't understand what's going on. I thought someone would have unprotected it by now, so I look at the talk page and see a request to add the protection template, which I've done. Now I'm being accused of being involved in a content dispute (which I gather is about links but as I haven't actually been involved in it I'm not aware of it) and an immediate de-sysop is being requested. I have not admitted to gross errors of judgement (check the talk page to see what I actually said) and there is a discussion as to whether the link should be restored. I repeat here, any Admin who wants to unprotect is free to do so without me suggesting they are wheelwarring. Dougweller (talk) 20:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for removing the protection. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. Ironically I think it would have been removed at RPP in my absence(since I'd made it clear I wouldn't object) if this thread hadn't been opened. Note that I saw my action as short term and not involved in whatever content dispute there was about badsites or whatever. And I'm still not convinced that protecting privacy is less important than having an url in an article for something that can easily be found with a search engine. Dougweller (talk) 20:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually I have the feeling it is a good thing you did remove the full-protection yourself. Lectonar (talk) 20:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• This drama was a good way to attract attention to that website normally ignored by most. Streisand effect and all that. Someone not using his real name (talk) 21:19, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Crazynas 21:25, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• I had never seen that site before. But this project does have problems which should be highlighted. Taroaldo ✉ 22:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Between editor troll Keifer and your own posts Crazynaslt it surely is a Streisand effect. Perhaps not pointing it out may have helped? Complex stuff, clearly. Pedro :  Chat  21:31, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Implying that we, not the incorrect full-protection was the cause of the effect? Crazynas 21:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Not exactly, no. Implying that by banging on about it you get the effect. Complex stuff, as I said. Pedro :  Chat  21:49, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Why is it that whenever an admin does something controversial, someone is bound to demand a de-sysop? Some people can hardly wait to gripe about admins. AutomaticStrikeout  ?  21:34, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• As far as I'm concerned the issue is resolved (Dougweller unprotected the page). Crazynas 21:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Indeed. Close anyone..? Pedro :  Chat  21:52, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Arbcom

If anyone missed it, the drama continues at WP:RFAR. Someone not using his real name (talk) 01:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• @Automatic Stikeout above. Because abuse of administrative tools should be cause for desysopping abusive administrators, plain and simple. Does this rise to that level? Maybe, maybe not. It's certainly discussable... I personally have no tolerance for an administrator making an edit and then using full protection to enforce that edit. Having deletion and protection buttons does not make Administrators the "boss" of content any more than an untooled editor. Carrite (talk) 02:23, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • In general I agree it's a bad idea. But inflexibility is rarely a good thing, and if in a BLP article there is repeated addition of offending content and an Admin removes that and protects the article, it's certainly acceptable. This was, IMHO, similar, although I can see now that there is strong feeling that we should link to the home page no matter what it says. I'm not convinced. From my perspective, I saw a problem and tried to deal with it. It didn't occur to me to read the talk page first - maybe I should have, but as they say hindsight is 20/20. I then asked for advice, listened to it and what was said on the talk page, stated that I was ok with being reverted, told the Admin who had thought of reverting me, and posted to RPP repeating that. I then went about my real life affairs. When I found out that nothing had happened I unprotected the page. I don't think my actions were those of an abusive administrator. Other people will no doubt disagree with me. Dougweller (talk) 05:03, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
    • FWIW, I think AGK's analysis at the RFAR page is pretty close to the mark. And, whatever one thinks of that website, you have to agree that the epic flipout about your protection should give them content for weeks. There was no abuse here - you acted boldly, saw that consensus leaned in a different direction, and approved someone reverting. I still think no one reverted because that article (and its topic) are a goddamn trainwreck of drama and outing and wtfomgbbq. So you came back later, shrugged, and reverted yourself. That's not the hallmark of an admin drunk with power. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 12:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

      Unilaterally removing the content (http://wikipediocracy.com) was likely disruptive, given the weeks of discussion on the Wikipediocracy article, with extensive discussion of the external link, but even more likely done in good faith.

      • The pre-emptive page-protection was the serious misuse of tools, a clear violation of several policies, the reversal of which Doug approved rather quickly. The "epic flipout" was by administrators not correcting the policy violations as soon as they were recognized. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:51, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

        Shit happens. It was a mistake that was corrected as soon as the person making it realised that there was a discussion about it. We're all allowed to make mistakes, so get on with your life. Making this kind of big drama of it is just plain silly. And requesting a de-sysop for it is clearly over the top. Thomas.W (talk) 13:15, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• • • • (ecx2) But that's my point. The protection caused drama, which almost immediately spawned a fairly heated talk page thread and an equally heated ANI thread (and now, indirectly, an RFAR). And that drama, for good or ill, likely gave some admins pause - I'm sure as hell not going to wade into that sort of a dispute by doing anything that might be seen as wheel warring. I think this topic gets a lot of editors on both sides of the discussion very very angry - as your comments yesterday demonstrate. You feel very strongly about this issue, as do others - and that's not always a recipe for calm and reasoned discussion. Not assigning blame, but everyone reacting to everyone else just escalated the issue and pissed a lot of people off. I think that whether Doug should be sanctioned for protecting the article should be less of a topic for discussion than why he believed (as I and others did) that the article needed to be protected in the first place. The discussion at the talk page (and, God help us, at RFAR) could serve to clarify that question. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 13:24, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Page protection against administrators?

• • • • • The article has a history of inducing bizarre behavior in normally reliable administrators. Salvio Guiliani removed a request for an outside administrator (and threatened blocks) to remove the protection (with the approval of Doug), Bbb23 blocked me for "edit warring" (one of the reverts being restoring a needed hyphen), etc. Perhaps there should be a protection on the page against administrators? Maybe administrators should be required to get prior approval from ANI/AN before using/abusing their tools? There is more of a history of administrative abuse than of edit warring. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:14, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

        • • • What I, as an until now totally uninvolved editor, see when looking at the article and its edit history is a systematic attempt by one or more users to use the article, and the drama created around it, to draw attention to the subject of the article. Or in other words a series of deliberate attempts to create controversy here in order to promote the other site. Thomas.W (talk) 14:21, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

You don't seem to be an administrator or a regular around these here parts. Names and diffs are required from the lower classes. Just a friendly warning.... Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:46, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Not being a regular here adds extra weight to my comments as it makes me see things clearer. Just FYI. As for "lower classes" I guess that says a lot more about you than about me or anyone/anything else, because I don't see any stratification here, or any "us vs them". But I do see people who seem to get a kick out of creating unnecessary drama. Thomas.W (talk) 15:57, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Kiefer.W: "The lower classes"? There's no such distinction - being a regular only means you have a reputation. Being an admin only means you have access to some extra tools. But being a new editor, a new visitor to AN/I, or even an IP editor doesn't make someone a member of a "lower class", and people here really ought to know better than that. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 17:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

@K-Skunk: K-Wolf forgot to use the sarcasm font. Carrite (talk) 18:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

All too easy for sarcasm to be lost in translation. I advise being careful with it. :) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 19:41, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Thomas.W,

Names and diffs, please. Why are you badmouthing editors without naming them? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Insults and harassment against a French sysop

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello,

Please check this, that can be translated by « You know who I am ? You bloody vermin, you will suffer when I am back ». We don't know who this account belongs to on WP:fr but can you please block it ? Thanks by advance. — S t a r u s – ¡Dímelo! – 20:05, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Username seems to be the same on fr.wp and is indefinitely blocked there. The user is clearly here (as there, apparently) only to harass. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

The username on WP:fr is supposed to be a sockpuppet but we have no information yet about it. — S t a r u s – ¡Dímelo! – 20:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Blocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:11, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your action - --Lomita (talk) 21:42, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Though the account is blocked now, nobody seemed to care to remove the not so veiled threats against 2 other :en-accounts from User talk:DieuDuSite. Also, the content on User:DieuDuSite isn't that appropriate. IMO, both pages should be blanked and eventually a block-note added. --Túrelio (talk) 06:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done now by Future Perfect at Sunrise. --Túrelio (talk) 13:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Zollerriia

Zollerriia (talk · contribs) has been editing Misplaced Pages since 2010. His userpage has claimed since 2011 that he retired, but this is clearly not so. I first noticed a problem with his behavior when he removed Template:Start date and age from a page because it wasn't being used to indicate the age of a human (diff). I checked his recent contributions and found several problematic edits, such as requiring items in a list to all have pages of their own and leaving messages to editors who disagree in the page's source (diff 1) (diff 2) (diff 3), flagging every edit he makes as minor, even extremely major ones (diff), removing links for no reason (diff), and blatantly lying in his edit summaries (diff 1) (diff 2). I'm assuming good faith, but his talk page shows that multiple people and bots, over a span of several years, have all informed him that his edits are not all constructive, but he does not appear to have replied to anything. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 04:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Bumping this, as it hasn't received any response yet but is about to be archived. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 14:27, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Errrr...you want us to block him so that he actually reads his talkpage, then goes into his preferences to remove the "mark all edits as minor"? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Ok, I have used the "e-mail this user" function to draw their attention to the editing/behaviour concerns that are listed on their talkpage. I have asked them to review them, and act accordingly. I have offerred to assist them if they have difficulties in understanding or changing settings. Anything else? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I guess not. Thanks for looking into it. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 15:06, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz and Margo Feiden Galleries

Dear Administrators,

When Misplaced Pages changed its rules to allow an individual to edit content about him or herself, I finally allowed a friend, a professional technical writer, Robyn42, to contribute content to Misplaced Pages based on my career as a gallerist, an author, and a member of New York's professional theater community. Recently another contributor, Chicago57th, has also contributed content about me with my approval.

Suddenly a man identified as Hullaballoo Wolfowitz embarked on a strange (the kindest adjective I can use) campaign against me and my gallery, unilaterally deleting wholesale from Misplaced Pages content that mentions my name or my gallery. Further, of his many deletions Mr. Wolfowitz did not present even one for discussion within the Misplaced Pages community. Instead, Mr. Wolfowitz sought to justify his behavior not by offering good reasons that stand up to scrutiny but, instead, resorting to spurious attacks on my character and conduct.

In the article on Joel-Peter Witkin, Mr. Wolfowitz deleted my gallery’s exhibition for Witkin, saying that the text was “unsourced” and “promotional.” As anyone can see, the "Chronology" section of Joel-Peter Witkin's article contains more than 100 similar listings for exhibitions of Witkin’s work. Fewer than 10 of those exhibitions are sourced. Surely, each listing is equally “promotional” in mentioning the venue for the exhibition cited. What is the rationale for deleting only one, the exhibition at my gallery? If Mr. Wolfowitz were to delete each of the similarly unsourced exhibitions from this section, Joel-Peter Witkin would be left with fewer than 10 exhibitions, not the 100 exhibitions that remain in "Chronology" now.

In the article on Raphael Soyer, Mr. Wolfowitz again deleted my gallery from a list of galleries and museums where Soyer exhibited. Mr. Wolfowitz also deleted my gallery’s highly-regarded, scholarly catalogue, “Raphael Soyer: Looking Over the Artist’s Shoulder.” My gallery’s Soyer catalogue is in the collections of museums, libraries, and galleries all over the world. Yet Mr. Wolfowitz deleted it, saying (amazingly) that it was “off-topic.”

In the article on Kurt Vonnegut, Mr. Wolfowitz deleted Vonnegut’s exhibition at my gallery in the section “Art Career.” Our first contribution was a single sentence: “He exhibited at the Margo Feiden Galleries Ltd. in New York." Mr. Wolfowitz deleted this material, saying it was “unsourced” and “promotional." We put it back, sourcing it with two university library archives that include the material. Mr. Wolfowitz again deleted our contribution saying that it was “spammery” and objecting to the library archives as sources. We again posted our contribution, this time with additional material sourced with three newspapers. Mr. Wolfowitz deleted that as well. Had all this behavior been a good-faith effort on Mr. Wolfowitz’s part, he could have used the Talk page to ask for even more than our five sources. The fact is that Vonnegut was represented by my gallery, which curated his art and gave him a one-man exhibition in 1980. Mr. Wolfowitz’s repeated deletion of this well-sourced exhibition makes it clear that his concerns are not as he states them to be. It is also clear that he is not concerned with the opinions of the Misplaced Pages community but is determined to delete my name and any reference to my gallery for reasons best known to himself.

In the article on the film The Misfits, Mr. Wolfowitz deleted the depiction of the film’s actors discussing the script with playwright Arthur Miller. This "backstage moment" was drawn by the artist Al Hirschfeld. The production aspect of this film is a significant topic in American film history, and this image serves the article by being the unique visual documentation of it.

In another article, Mr. Wolfowitiz again deleted an Al Hirschfeld image and the accompanying text—this time for the celebrated canine actor Skippy. Mr. Wolfowitz described our content as “particularly outlandish promotional editing.” However, this is a case where the subject’s portrayal by Al Hirschfeld, the chronicler of twentieth-century performing arts, truly contributes something substantial about the fame achieved by the article's subject, a dog. If Skippy, a dog, deserves his own article, should not that article include Skippy's rare distinction among animal actors of being portrayed by Al Hirschfeld? Doesn’t such a rare distinction at the very least merit discussion before the content is deleted?

Mr. Wolfowitz applied the same heavy hand in his deletion of Hirschfeld images, this time from the article on actress Dolly Haas. Dolly Haas was married to Al Hirschfeld for 50 years. Two of the drawings Mr. Wolfowitz deleted served the article by documenting Haas’ American stage career, a topic that had been completely absent before we made our contribution.

Now to Valerie Solanas, where Mr. Wolfowitz has displayed a particular animus against me in his edits and comments. To begin with, he deleted the widely-published accounts of my meeting with Valerie Solanas on the day she shot Andy Warhol. Once more, Mr. Wolfowitz made these deletions without any discussion on the matter. In point of fact, when another editor attempted to revert Mr. Wolfowitz’s edit and initiate a discussion within the Misplaced Pages community, Mr. Wolfowitz went into the article and deleted our contribution again, before the discussion had run its course. What Mr. Wolfowitz called a “self-sourced account” was in fact sourced with three major articles and interviews: The New York Times, Interview Magazine, and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. The controversy is there for you to read in all its detail on the Talk Page Talk:Valerie Solanas.

In summation, one test of Mr. Wolfowitz’s behavior is this: what if every editor behaved as he did—deleting contributions without discussion, removing important exhibitions and catalogues of artists’ work, again without discussion, and removing objectively sourced and documented accounts with the claim that they are “self-sourced?” In short, if everybody behaved as Mr. Wolfowitz did, Misplaced Pages could not function at all. I will also add that Mr. Wolfowitz used inappropriate language throughout.

These are but a few examples of Mr. Wolfowitz’s behavior, by which he has gone through Misplaced Pages deleting my name and that of my gallery over and over and over again, almost everywhere that they appeared. In light of this pattern of behavior by which Mr. Wolfowitz is attempting to erase me, I am requesting that he be blocked from editing material relating to me or to my work.

Respectfully, Margo Feiden Factor-ies (talk) 06:53, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I went ahead and notified Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk · contribs) regarding this discussion. I, Jethrobot (note: not a bot!) 07:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Factor-ies (talk · contribs) followed shortly after: . I, Jethrobot (note: not a bot!) 07:04, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I have not reviewed any of the content, and so I am making no comment on it. My general opinion: this is one example of why no one should edit articles about themselves or their corporations, or add/delete material about their activities or their corporations' activities in any articles (Snowden and the Booz Allen editors are a recent example). If a person's information is notable enough to be included, a third party will likely add it, and that's the way it should be. Taroaldo ✉ 07:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Granted, I have not looked thoroughly into Hullaballoo Wolfowitz's edits mentioned here, but so far, I am not seeing any problem with HW's edits. Unsourced edits are being added to these articles and HW is merely removing them. I suggest to the OP that if they want to add content to these articles, they should source these edits to third-party reliable sources. The fact that there is other content that is not properly sourced is not a reason to add more unsourced content. See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 08:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Please extend every courtesy to another scion of the Wolfowitz clan. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not sure Misplaced Pages ever specifically "allowed" someone to edit articles about themselves - even Jimbo's phrase was that they should only ever propose changes on the article talkpage. I usually go so far as to say that they can remove WP:BLP-infringing content if it's not properly sourced. Major changes should, ethically, never be done by the subject - period. No comment on HW's specific actions here, yet (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• There's a lot to digest here, but after a broad overview I'd say Wolfowitz acted appropriately and even commendably. Our policies relating to conflict-of-interest editing are, to be fair, somewhat complex. The reason it isn't utterly prohibited is because article subjects need the right to remove false information about themselves from articles. Also, some very broad types of COI are almost impossible to avoid: if neither believers or non-believers could edite articles on religion, there wouldn't be many editors left. Beyond that though, most other COI editing, and in particular spam and self-promotion, IS prohibited. To quote WP:COI, "You should not create or edit articles about yourself, your family or your close friends. If you or they are notable enough, someone else will create the article. You should also avoid writing about yourself or people you know in articles on other topics." Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• First, WP does allow people to edit articles about themselves and their interests, whether avocational or commercial. It very strongly and rightly recommends otherwise in the case of a strong commercial connection, but there has never been consensus to prohibit; although Jimbo is indeed one of those who advocates prohibition, he is not dictator, and his opinion should not be quoted as policy. I have looked at some of the edits. I'm pretty drastic myself at removing promotional links & mentions , but at least some of the items mentioned seem to at least need explanation: (1) For the Witkin show, I do not see the basis of rejecting this particular one, and I do not think it would have been removed had another editor added it. (2) The Vonnegut material was indeed documented from the first. The published Lily Library and University of Delaware archives descriptions are appropriate sources for plain description. In the past, many such descriptions were unpublished and cryptic, but the availability on the web has made these widely available (and used in WP), However (3) For the Soyer catalog, I do not see it in WorldCat. (4)For the Hirschfeld drawings, they were added as NFCC,and the criteria for their relevance is rather strict (in my opinion, stricter than it should be but that's another matter) Hirschfeld made a great many drawings, and illustrated large parts of the cultural world of his period in ways that add a justly famous degree of understanding, so the decision of which ones to add is exactly the sort of thing that is most subject to COI and is best done by a uninvolved editor. I note that the captions for them included, unnecessarily, the name of the gallery--including that is a very clear indication of promotional use, and would certainly lead any unbiased person to be exceedingly skeptical about their insertion. This illustrates the problem: a promotional editor may make good judgement, or not,and must be judged by the results. Had MF used better judgement in writing the captions, and judging what images to include, the effort would have been more successful.

DGG ( talk ) 17:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I don't see where the reporting party tried to work this out with HW before coming here. I would also note that COI editing is not against policy, no matter how unwise it is. Each edit is supposed to be based on its own merits. I suggest closing and taking any concerns to the actual editor on the article talk page. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:42, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• It is strongly discouraged for very good reasons. The number of reasonable COI editors I've encountered I can probably count on one hand. Most are blatant COIs and end up getting blocked, or everything they do is reverted because it does not fit within the scope of the project. Taroaldo ✉ 20:08, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Agreed. There is such a thing as a COI editor who makes positive contributions, but far more often they try to sell something, push an agenda, or just "get their name out there". The current case appears to be a mixture of all three. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Hullaballoo raised this at ANI a month ago .
• I agree with you, DGG. Many good editors edit about their avocational interests. Bearian (talk) 20:29, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dear A Quest For Knowledge: Thank you for your comments on this, and your even-handed approach. Speaking to the subject of sourcing, of course it is very important. However, Mr. Wolfowitz was not consistent in his treatment of what he terms “unsourced” material. If being unsourced is sufficient grounds for immediate deletion, why did Mr. Wolfowitz not delete all the other unsourced material in the same article? Mr. Wolfowitz specifically targeted material about me, using a rationale that he did not apply to any other equivalent material. However, Mr. Wolfowitz removed material that he termed “unsourced” when solid sourcing was clearly there for all to see. Factor-ies (talk) 08:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dear DGG: Thank you very much for your contribution to this discussion. The Soyer catalogue we published can be sourced, for example If unsourced material was Mr. Wolfowitz’s objection, I would have been happy to add a source. I am fairly new to Misplaced Pages and was guided by the other material on that page. As to the Hirschfeld drawings, which included the gallery’s name in captioning, it is commonplace in the art world, in fact the industry standard, that when art is reproduced its location is noted. Would you not, in captioning a photograph of the Statue of Libery, say that it stands in New York Harbor? It is important to know where the original art is located, and examples of this practice can be found within Misplaced Pages on the pages for Mark Rothko, Isamu Noguchi, Henri Matisse, and Paul Klee, and many others. If including my name in the caption was what bothered Mr. Wolfowitz, he could have, and should have, notified me. We could then have opened that discussion to the Misplaced Pages community. Thank you again for your discussion here. Factor-ies (talk) 08:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Ethically, you should have known not to add your name, period. No discussion needed. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dear Dennis Brown: Thank you for joining in on this discussion. You are correct that I did not try to work these problems out with Mr. Wolfowitz before reporting them here. After reading your comments, I think that perhaps I should have done so. I did know that it was an option, but Mr. Wolfowitz himself never engaged with me, although he clearly had reason to. He could have, and should have, asked for sourcing--although sourcing was already provided for content that he deleted as uncourced. Such was his demeanor that I felt I needed to go to the Misplaced Pages community. Factor-ies (talk) 08:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussing directly with the other edit is not just an option, it's a requirement. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dear Taraoldo: Thank you for your interest in these issues. I contributed content that I felt would stand on its own merit in an encyclopedic reference. Your experience with other COI editors is clearly unfortunate, but I feel certain that you would agree that my contributions should be judged on their own merits. Interested parties can help build Misplaced Pages and indeed, very often, interested parties have more knowlege and more accurate information than anyone else. On the other hand, third parties knowledgeable enough to write on a specific subject will almost never be purely unbiased. Let me ask you this: if Madame Curie suddenly came back to life, would you prohibit her from including her own biographical details in Misplaced Pages, or adding to articles on radioactivity? Of course not. The point is, if I am not able to add my gallery’s exhibition for Joel-Peter Witkin, and Joel-Peter Witkin cannot add it himself, would I have to rely on somebody that saw the exhibition in the Spring of 1970, remembered it, and cared enough to add it to Misplaced Pages? That scenario seems unlikely, and yet many people born after that exhibition should have the right to find that information on Misplaced Pages. Factor-ies (talk) 08:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

If nobody "cared enough to add it", then it likely was not at all worthy to be added by anybody (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

If such an event happened, I would respectfully discourage her, or any other historical figure, from adding to their own articles. Of course no one has greater insights into an individual's life than the person in question, but this project is an encyclopedia, not a collection of autobiographies and personal anecdotes. This means someone else should be capable of finding and adding the information if it is truly pertinent. If someone else doesn't add it, that should never green-light a COI edit. Taroaldo ✉ 04:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• I for one am totally supportive of Margo's position. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz is an extremely disruptive editor. One small glance at his "contribution" history shows that his edits are almost exclusively deleting huge chunks from every article he stumbles upon. This is, in my opinion, the complete opposite of Misplaced Pages's philosophy. In fact his talk page is simply littered with messages from puzzled editors complaining about his behavior or even asking that he stop threaten them! I myself have been recently dealing with Mr. Wolfowitz on several articles and even reported him due to edit warring on his part. I was unfortunately distracted by my personal life and the complaint was filed away, but he seems to be at it again and I may have to report him again as he refuses to engage in conversation and seems to simply believe his opinion to be fact. Misplaced Pages is collaborative. Misplaced Pages editors should strive to make each article better to the best of their abilities, reworking passages they find are awkward, finding sources when there are none, etc..., not deleting half an article simply because you do not agree with its content. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Happy Evil Dude (talk) 22:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it has in fact been proposed, and rejected, that illustrations as used in WP carry credit lines. The consensus view is that this belongs on the image description page , which is linked, and satisfy attribution requirements. This applies even to artists and other creators and would apply even more to the mere owner or supplier of the image. DGG ( talk ) 00:20, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• The real problem here is that Factor-ies had not received much guidance on what is acceptable editing. (She has 56 edits. Five-six!) I note that the particular edits and reversions (above) were done 6 months ago. I've posted a welcome message & further advice on her talk page. Perhaps when she reviews WP policies, guidelines, 5P, etc. she'll understand what's going on. Let's be careful not to WP:BITE. – S. Rich (talk) 01:07, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• While Factor-ies may be a new account, Feiden is likely not a new editor,and there is strong evidence of sockpuppetry. See my original ANI report here . There is at least one Feiden edit as old as 2008. What underlies all this seems to be a long-running dispute over control of Hirschfeld's work, which at one point led to Hirschfeld suing Feiden, , and it's one facet of this that uploads of images by Feiden and related accounts pretty consistently failed to credit the origimal publication but listed the commercial gallery which sells them instead. Editors here should give Feiden's claims a more skeptical look. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 01:32, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Whatever Margo's experience (or alter-ego) is doesn't matter as far as this discussion goes. Her complaint is not well founded and I recommend that it be closed. – S. Rich (talk) 01:50, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Some of her complaint is not well founded, but at some much earlier point the underlying issues should have been discussed. The paragraph HW just contributed sheds more light on the matter for me than any previous discussion., and I wish they had said it a good deal earlier. The earlier AfD discussion HW mentions above is very relevant, and should have been followed up further. DGG ( talk ) 04:53, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

BLP semi?

I just discovered that Sherman Alexie has spent the last two weeks in a vandalized state (due to IPs) while two registered users touched it without noticing the vandalism. The page has been viewed almost 14,000 times in the last month. If this is happening on a page like Sherman Alexie, I'm concerned that the system for catching vandalism has broken down. Is there any good reason not to semi all BLPs at this point? Viriditas (talk) 10:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:VPP Sædon 10:19, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Or WP:RFPP? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I have pending changes protected for a month.....Lectonar (talk) 12:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I also went to pending-changes protect the article, but Lectonar got there before me. Bwilkins, it makes no sense to refer Viriditas to WP:RFPP, as this wasn't a request for protection but a request for input on whether all BLP's should be semi-protected. I suppose WP:VPP is your man per Saedon, yes. But I'll say I'm in favour of general semi of BLP's, despite the obvious objection that that'll make it even more frustrating for the non-wiki-savvy person who tries to remove negative stuff about themselves. Bishonen | talk 13:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC).

VPP might be the place to go, but one does not have to be a prophet to see that this will never catch on; I'd be in favour of pd lvl. 1 for BLP's....but neither that nor semi will catch dedicated people who really want to do harm (imho, the worst BLP violations come from registered autoconfirmed users anyway). Lectonar (talk) 13:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:RFPP would be the right place if Viriditas was requesting protection for a single BLP but if we're talking about all BLPs then that would need to take place at WP:VPP. As an aside, I would wholly support such a proposal, if not protection then at least pending changes. Sædon 20:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Let's hear it once again for IP editing... Ya wanna smack down vandalism, banning IP editing and requiring sign-in-to-edit would vaporize between 50 and 90 percent of it in an afternoon, I'm guessing. Carrite (talk) 18:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I think that's a really good policy suggestion. Was the vandalism really severe/obvious or was it more subtle (like changing dates)? (It's hard to tell from the link since it's no diff. DrPhen (talk) 22:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • And what percentage of good quality edits would that also prevent? Vegaswikian (talk) 22:21, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• These things aren't unusual. The Sherman Alexie page supposedly has 64 page watchers, but I'm sure most of those people are irregular editors, or abandoned the site years ago. Zagalejo^^^ 23:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Prolongued incivility and possible indef. block evasion concerns

UrbanNerd (talk · contribs) has been persistently incivil to a number of editors (myself included) over an extended period of time. Generally, he is ignored, though, from time to time, he receives a message reminding him of WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:AGF, and the like, and he has been blocked numerous times for personal attacks already. Still, the ignorance seemingly enables him to continue and the warnings/reminders/bloks are simply dismissed.

Some examples:

• 22:44, 2 July 2013: "Moxy, may I remind you this is not the place to gossip with the ladies... thanks. Once again Miesianiacal believes that BRD doesn't apply to him and he can add his usual british trash to every article and when reverted just reinstates and starts an edit war. I have never seen an editor with such a enormous bias and such disregard for BRD still editing here."
• 05:06, 2 July 2013: "Please follow BRD when your nonsense edits get reverted."
• 05:05, 2 July 2013: "Miesianiacals bias additions -- You added material which was filled with british trash as usual..."
• 21:34, 30 May 2013: "Even more Monarchist crap -- i've removed yet more monarchist rhetoric by everyones favorite monarchist editor..."
• 00:28, 29 May 2013: "Are you high on meth? Seriously?"
• 03:59, 22 May 2013: "o one here is an 'idiot' besides yourself..."
• 16:30, 21 April 2013: "I can assure you pal that I have lived in Ottawa for MANY years... more than your 26 years on this earth. I also have studied the city formally for years. So I can assure you I do in fact know this city better than most, including you. So your opinion of me is irrelevant and i could really care less. Your out of date 'inner-greenbelt' mentality at looking at the city as if it was 1988 and you were 65 years old is laughable."
• 19:53, 2 March 2013: "Wow, I'm going to try and stay civil here, but your comments/actions are so far beyond comprehension i don't know where to even start. You can't be that simple, you have to be putting on an act."
• 18:08, 24 January 2013: "remove excessive canadian bias by known bias monarchist editor, and general pain in the a**."
• 03:01, 19 December 2012: "We both know that no one at the NBA article objects to your little pansy team count. No quit being a ass clown as usual. You're a terrible editor."
• 02:57, 7 November 2012: "Wow, your lack of intelligent contributions is breath taking... Stop making up fake consensuses and edit warring."
• 14:41, 25 October 2012: "it was changed to DMY yesterday moron..."
• 03:30, 25 October 2012: "Probably added by a useless Ozzy like yourself. Now go back to being irrelevant."
• 02:23, 16 October 2012: "Hey buddy, has your acne medication gone to your pee brain? F*ck right off with your attitude. At the time the news story came out it read that he resigned affective immediately. It has since been updated. It's easy for someone like you that sits at his computer all day dreaming of having any resemblance of a social life or even a single friend to get updates and then criticize others/act tough. You're not tough, you're an jag off. Please don't be so abrasive in the future. Thank you."

On a related but tangential matter, there's much to suggest UrbanNerd is the new user name of the indfinitely blocked Po' buster (talk · contribs) (that being the subsequent user name of the indefinitely blocked PhilthyBear (talk · contribs)): the general attitude illustrated above, plus the content and target of some of the attacks, as well as many similarities in patterns of editing (southern Ontario and Canadian urban-related matters, populations/demographics, lists of largest buildings, Ottawa, the National Capital Region, Toronto, Fanshawe College, Gangs in Canada, removing French language material, etc.), the very short time between when Po' buster was blocked and UrbanNerd began editing, and more.

Since UrbanNerd has been editing under that name now for over three years, I am not sure whether or not a sockpuppet investigation or checkuser is of any value anymore. Perhaps others who know better can advise on that.

I do believe, though, that, for however long UrbanNerd continues to edit here, some serious civility restrictions need to be placed upon him by the community. Do we have a precedent to follow? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• The block log, together with this edit summary from today, suggest to me an editor that simply can't edit collegially. I'd be interested in what others think. Black Kite (talk) 20:15, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

  AGFing that edit summary, that could simply mean he is removing a "strange" message. However, the edit to his userpage that caused it to be speedy deleted as an attack page yesterday is quite illuminating. Resolute 21:55, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I have made a number of comments in recent discussions about the lax attitude the Misplaced Pages community seems to have about chronic incivility. I have pointed out that this has a negative effect on productive editors and can eventually cause people to give up on the project. This seems to be another good illustration of the ongoing problem. (This user had a nice attack page deleted just yesterday.) Taroaldo ✉ 20:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I am surprised, and disappointed, that UrbanNerd has gone on for so long in this fashion. (Interestingly, UrbanNerd's talkpage has just been sanitized since this ANI was posted.) The examples given are not just disruptive, they are abusive. It is time to put the burden on UrbanNerd to overcome this sad legacy. I recommend an WP:INDEF, and then let UrbanNerd plead a case for unblocking. – S. Rich (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• It's a wonder he's not been indef'd already for a slew of policy violations. I'd support S. Rich's proposal of an indef. Dusti 21:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Btw - let's add this to the mix. Dusti 21:05, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• The suggestion that the UrbanNerd account is a sock is interesting. I don't have knowledge of the previous user names, and I think 3 years is well beyond the stale range for a CU anyway, so that could only be judged on behavioural evidence. That, however, may not really be required. UrbanNerd is an alright content editor, but he is singularly incapable of interacting with people. Any edit he dislikes, or any of his edits that get challenged are inevitably responded to with a barrage of insults. The examples Miesianiacal notes above are really just a small sample set. Even if he evades one now, an indef block is inevitable unless UrbanNerd learns to interact with others. Resolute 21:55, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• For what it's worth I also believe that this user does more harm than good. I am struck by their constant assumption of bad faith/stupidity on the part of other users (ie. , among many others. Follow almost any discussion they're in, and you'll see much the same) and a general failure to discuss changes substantively (ie. ). The pattern is repeated and constant. I tried to engage the user as kindly as I could, but was called "queer" and my message was deleted (). I think it's best to spare other editors the headache and time lost arguing constantly with someone who simply won't engage in a proper substantive debate.Peregrine981 (talk) 22:29, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• UrbanNerd should of course be given a chance to respond, but there is compelling evidence here of a long-standing problem that requires intervention. Gamaliel (talk) 22:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indef block. Off-the-charts incivility including very childish name-calling, over a period long enough that they can't claim they just had a bad day... or week... or month. Misplaced Pages isn't the schoolyard. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:38, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indef block given the block history and continuing disruptive beahviour. Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indefinite block. Multiple persistant and continuing behavioral problems make this user a net negative to the project. Inability to collaborate with others is more than amply demonstrated. This block is long overdue. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 02:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

If I may add another example:

• 07:24, 1 March 2013: "reverting to 21:20, 16 February 2013‎ revision by User:Ccyyrree per WP:BRD and WP:STATUSQUO"
• 13:02, 1 March 2013: "Undid revision 541454110 by 117Avenue (talk) Revert back to longstanding as per WP:BRD"
• 02:12, 2 March 2013: "To what long standing version are you talking about"?
• 19:53, 2 March 2013: "your comments/actions are so far beyond comprehension i don't know where to even start. You can't be that simple, you have to be putting on an act."

117Avenue (talk) 06:06, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support I could add many more diffs to examples that are similar to the ones above but at this point I think its pretty clear that he needs an indef block as the many blocks he has received so far haven't helped him see the issue. -DJSasso (talk) 14:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Involved editor - Simply put this user is a determent to the project (200 examples here if requested).Moxy (talk) 16:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support - I've thought there was something fishy here for a while but couldn't put my finger on it and didn't have time to cite him for his civility issues. I was however heavily involved in the other two users named (Po'Buster and PhilthyBear) and now that someone else mentions it yes, I completely agree there. Looking back through UrbanNerd's edits, even recently, there are massive violations of WP:OWN, good faith and just basic civility not to mention edit warring but using terminology to seeming get out of it by covering them as procedural or vandalism etc. Continually claiming BRD (which incidentally isn't a policy, it's an essay) isn't a way to get out of blatant edit warring. I'm surprised no one has jumped on this sooner. Really surprised. Canterbury Tail talk 17:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• 'Support. I was unaware of how bad it was until reading all these comments. This is why people leave Misplaced Pages. 117Avenue (talk) 02:47, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Strange username/IP and the Dantherocker1 association

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I discovered this afternoon that my talk page was vandalized by a strange name: 2602:304:cd01:1f59:54d7:14eb:ae2f:5335. Furthermore it appears to have used by a sock farm from 2011, (original account User:Dantherocker1), who caused a major disruption throughout Misplaced Pages and eventually started harassing me on Misplaced Pages and YouTube. NHRHS2010 the student pilot ✈ 21:41, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

You can't claim that an IP is being used by the same person who was using it in 2011, without some evidence to back that up. Do you have any? 78.149.172.10 (talk) 21:45, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I am being suspicious because the Dantherocker1 sockpuppets have targeted me in the past. So it could be either him or someone copying him. NHRHS2010 the student pilot ✈ 21:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• The "strange name" is just an IPv6 address. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:15, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

37.117.127.158 is doing disruptive editing again.

The user with this IP address 37.117.127.158 is at it again. He has committed disruptive editing on film infoboxes on The Lone Ranger (2013 film), as you can see it here and here in Transformers (film series).

The user with this IP address has done this before and was discussed and archived here. This user was warned by Dennis Brown on his talk page and was quiet for a few days until he came back to do his disruptive film editing on the film infoboxes. BattleshipMan (talk) 22:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I think a block may be required to stop the disruption, but want more input. I think my request for him to "stop" on his talk page could not have possibly been more obvious. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:38, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • You forgot to notify him so I did it myself. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:50, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
    • One of the negatives of the new, "quieter" message notification system is it's harder to assume anyone's definitely seen their warnings. I guess a short block is the way to go, proceeding to a longer one if they come back and keep it up. Infobox formatting is pretty minor disruption though, and it's possible they genuinely think it looks better that way. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:52, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Do you think he'll ever stop his disruptive editing on film infoboxes after we blocked him for a short time. BattleshipMan (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Blocked 72 hours. He can come back and continues to edit and refuses to engage about this problem. The only time he has used his talk page was to say that he didn't have time to talk. Now he has three days. I suggest talking with him there, politely and trying to help him understand why his actions are so disruptive. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I send him a message on his talk page here about the reason he's been blocked for 72 hours. BattleshipMan (talk) 07:30, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Jc37 and edit-warring

Please can some uninvolved admins cast their eyes on the rather complex case listed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Jc37_reported_by_User:BrownHairedGirl_.28Result:_.29?

I thought that WP:AN3 was the best place to report this issue, tho it's not a perfect fit. If another forum would be more suitable, I would welcome suggestions. But whatever the venue, it would be good to have assistance in resolving this. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

There is an RFC at WikiProject Ireland, where I think it is more suitable to take this rather than pursuing the conduct issues.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I hope that the RFC will produce a consensus outcome. But RFCs remain open for a long time, and in the meantime Jc37 continues to edit-war, citing a CFD close which didn't even mention his desired change ( a change which got no support at CFD, or in the RFC). Is there any way of persuading him to just accept the the status quo ante pending the RFC outcome? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:09, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be any harm in allowing the discussion to resolve the matter. Should consensus stay where it appears to be then Jc37's edit will be undone. As long as he accepts what the RfC decides there is no disruption to prevent.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:14, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

First off, thank you TDA for the AGF.

BHG has left out a few things, such as I was the closer of the discussion, then I implemented the close and a few others have tried to revert it based upon their personal declared POV/biases. That's textbook disruption. But rather than be a rouge admin, and implement some variation of WP:RBI for disruption (as all too many admins all too often do), I chose instead to try to engage with them, and suggested that the subpage one editor wrote up as a proposed synthesis of several discussions be now proposed as a guideline. If this has actual consensus, then an rfc should be fairly simple SOP. Discussion, regardless of outcome, is a good thing.

But impatience apparently set in, and despite the fact the "there is no deadline", they've continued to revert the close.

Proof? read User talk:Fayenatic london#Ireland_categories, my talk page, User_talk:BrownHairedGirl#Note, and of course the edit history of the category in question.

Closers simply should not be attacked like this. If they're doing this to me, someone who even they have professed to have liked at some point, how then are they treating other closers?

Oh and, as I asked for the discussion, I'll obviously respect it. Indeed, my intention has been to add a note to the cfd close after the rfc closes, noting the result of the rfc. (Though I would hope that the rfc was advertised at least at one or more of the WP:VPs.)

All this aside, I'm very disappointed in the editors with whom I have worked with, discussed with, etc., over the last several years. I have little doubt that they now have few kind things to say about me (How dare I implement a close contrary to their interpretation of my close!), but I guess c'est la vie. - jc37 09:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I am saddened by the disingenuousness of that reply. My post above links to the AN3 report, and asks others to cast an eye over it. That report says: "In a nutshell, this is a strange case of a closing admin edit-warring to uphold a decision which he made subsequent to a CFD closure, and which which was neither mentioned in the closure nor supported by any participant in the CFD discussion. In the subsequent discussions, no other editor has supported the closer's actions."

Yet Jc37 claims I omitted this fact.

Why? What's the point of misrepresenting me so blatantly? An admin should know better than to do that.

If Jc37 had intended the close to mean "remove Northern Ireland from Ireland", then that point should have been included stated in the CFD closing statement. If it had been in the closing statement, this could have been sorted long ago at DRV, because there is nothing in the discussion to support that perverse outcome. (The long-standing status quo has been that Category:Ireland contains subcats Category:Republic of Ireland and Category:Northern Ireland, and similarly Foo in Ireland has subcats Foo in NI and Foo in RoI).

Instead we are in limbo, with a closing statement which doesn't say that "Northern Ireland should not be a subcat of Ireland", so there is nothing to take to DRV. If Jc37 intends his closing statement to say that, then please amend the closing statement to make that clear, and we can take it to DRV.

Instead, we are in a weird limbo land. Nobody else reads Jc37's closing statement the way he reads it, and nobody supports the substance of his interpretation. Despite this, he has been edit-warring. Every closer has made some closes that don't go quite right, but when you are in a hole, stop digging.

If Jc37 believes that his closing statement justifies his subsequent actions, then the simple solution is to list it himself at DRV.

It's sad too that Jc37 claims he is being "attacked". An admin should be accountable for their actions, and the discussions at User talk:Jc37#Category:People_by_city_or_town_in_Northern_Ireland and User talk:Fayenatic_london#Ireland_categories show several editors politely asking Jc37 to reconsider. At no point in those discussions does Jc37 make any attempt to explain why he interpreted the CFD discussion as providing support for the actions he took. Why is he surprised that this has escalated after he dug in, when there were several routes he could have taken to resolve this quickly?

What we have instead is a CFD closer edit-warring to uphold a point not mentioned in his close, and insisting that his edit must stay pending an RFC. Nobody has objected to the opening of the RFC ... all we are asking is that the status quo ante be restored pending the outcome of the RFC.

The AN3 report has been closed as I think it's stale for now, but a block is in order if he reverts again. Another editor has restored the status quo ante, and I hope that Jc37 will leave it at that rather than risk a block.

If he will stop edit-warring, we are all done here. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. I think everyone involved in the RFC should just wait for it to be closed before worrying about restoring the categories to their preferred set-up. I don't understand what the hurry is and the way the RFC is going it should produce a result everyone can be happy about. I know—users are attempting to restore the status quo ante—but really, if all users were just patient for the RFC to close, there would be no problems at all. Good Ol’factory 00:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

  The default duration of an RfC is 30 days. The RFC was opened on 28 June, which is 13 days after the CFD was closed.
  What is the procedural or substantive purpose of allowing Jc37's personal preference to stand for 43 days, when it is unsupported by any other editor, unmentioned in his closing statement, and not based on the CFD discussion? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

  No. 1—Avoidance of the need for this discussion entirely. #2—No edit wars. #3—Respect for the process. #4—Some users could add to their patience and tolerance (no. 4 is just a side benefit). Good Ol’factory 22:11, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

  • The point about the RfC is that it should never have been opened in the first place. In the long history of WP:WikiProject Ireland the question has never been raised whether "Foo in Northern Ireland" should be a sub-cat of "Foo in Ireland". It has always been accepted, by editors of every political persuasion, that it is. This RfC was opened by Fayenatic London only because Jc37 would not budge unless such a discussion was opened. You can see by the responses to it that WP:IE participants are bewildered by it. We all believe we have a good guideline which should be adhered to, and can't see why we should be obliged to re-affirm it. You might as well open an RfC on whether the world is round, and then say everyone involved in the RFC should just wait thirty days for it to be closed before worrying about fixing things. The RfC should be closed per WP:SNOW, and people should be allowed to get back to things that actually matter. Scolaire (talk) 12:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Scolaire is right that the status quo was not a matter of controversy until Jc37 took it upon himself to start his edit war. There are a lot POVs in relation to Ireland, but this is not something which has ever been controversial.
      Sadly, Jc37 has now chosen to claim that this is all a matter of several editors who have a a clear bias regarding uk and ireland topics. This is nonsense; nobody of any POV agrees with Jc37's view. And it's a rather nasty attempt to smear those who have been trying politely for weeks to dissuade him from his little edit-war. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Just everyone be patient. It's not that hard. It takes two or more to edit war. The self-righteous attitudes being expressed in this section are borderline sickening to me. Good Ol’factory 21:50, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
        • Jc37 also has the option of being patient, instead of throwing around accusations of bullying. This is not about a content dispute, it is about user behaviour. Being a closer does not entitle someone to make the kind of personal attacks that would get an "ordinary" user blocked. "Self-righteous" and "borderline sickening" are not particularly good examples of civility, either. Scolaire (talk) 07:37, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by drg55

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(ec) To be fair, last time I looked the rules seemed to say that appeals can be both at AE and at other noticeboards, but if anything, AN would certainly be more suitable than ANI. Why not simply copy it over to AE now? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit Warring by user Viriditas again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Despite a recent two-week block, a warning by an admin to not edit war and a recent AN/I report, the user is engaging in the same problematic editing style, this time by the user who initiated a wholesale revision of currently disputed material despite being notified (by me) of the proper editing Misplaced Pages procedures in cases of dispute over contentious material, starting with 30 (or RFC), then DRN, etc. The editor doesn't seem to understand the basic Misplaced Pages principle of trying to collaborate in cases of disagreements, so at this point somebody has to just step in and do something about this user's habit of edit warring. Gobbleygook (talk) 07:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

The recent ANI report you refer to was filed by yourself, and I believe you were told not to file more of these ANI reports. Regards,Iselilja (talk) 08:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't told not to file more of the AN/I reports, what was written (and the reason for which the AN/I was closed) was that "sniping is not permitted at WP:ANI." I'm not sure what "sniping" means but if the admin is insinuating that the reports are frivolous, then I absolutely disagree as you have an editor who is habitually disregarding fundamental Misplaced Pages editing norms and regulations. Gobbleygook (talk) 10:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Gobbleygook Edit Warring notice board is Thataway. I am not a big fan of viriditas, however I believe you should withdraw this complaint as I believe it will probably Boomerang back on you. VViking_TalkEdits 11:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Eyes Needed

Looks like the kids on summer vacation are bored and causing problems. Already seen 3 brand new accounts pop-up on my watchlist and all vandalism-only accounts. Eyes are going to be needed at WP:AIV, the Oversight account (or wherever Oversight requests go) and here on ANI. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 18:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Review requested - Sandstein's block of Saedon

During an arbitration enforcement discussion centred around Scientology, User:Saedon made a comment that (in part) reads "scientology is a ridiculous cult and we do not need members of said cult to build our articles on the subject". This is quite clearly inappropriate, and so User:Sandstein blocked Saedon for 48 hours for "Personal attacks or harassment". This block was (quite reasonably) documented here, where it was made clear that is was done as an individual administrative action rather than as an arbitration enforcement action, and is thus something any admin can undo, and something that can be discussed at AN/I.

Both User:Dennis Brown and myself questioned the necessity of the block; I can't speak for Dennis, but my area of concern mostly centred around the lack of any kind of warning. While warnings are not required for blocks, I usually interpret this (perhaps wrongly) as basically saying that if someone is being obviously, actively disruptive, we don't have to jump through the hoops of going "level 1 warning. Level 2 warning. Level 3...." before blocking; Saedon, is a user with no block log and to my knowledge no record of this sort of behaviour, whose contributions after the offending edit showed disengagement from the area. Even if he wasn't showing disengagement, there are ways to solve for user misbehaviour that are below the level of a block.

To his credit, Sandstein quickly responded to the concerns I and others raised. His argument for the block being preventative, rather than punitive, was based around comments from Saedon's unblock request, which confused me greatly since it doesn't seem appropriate to justify the necessity of an action based on things that happened after it. His next comment here was "the block will reduce the likelihood of similar misconduct by you and possibly others in the future". I'm interpreting this (perhaps uncharitably) as suggesting that Sandstein sees one of the legitimate uses of blocking as, essentially, a "time out"; that a block forces a user to adjust his behaviour, and furthermore that it sits as a warning to other users. Unlike the Royal Navy, we do not shoot one admiral to serve as an example to others; blocks should be in response to an active threat, not as a way of chilling others. Chilling negative behaviour vicariously is a side-effect of blocks, not a justification for them. I'm coming to AN/I to request wider comment as to the validity of the block, and as to the spin Sandstein seems to be putting on the blocking policy. Ironholds (talk) 22:31, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• I support unblocking. Oliver and I agree on every point above. Saedon has a long record of nothing but productive work and a warning should have been tried first. Nothing personal against the blocking admin, but blocking should have been the last resort, not the first. Saedon's wording was a mistake, but a mistake that a warning could have cleared up. There is no pattern of behavior to "deter" here, making this block unnecessary. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Good decision to block, but the duration was too long for a first warning. Two hours would have been better. Suggestion that other editors are not welcome is a serious matter, but the point is made with an initial short block. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Unblock - The comment was fairly uncivil, but Saedon should have first been warned and given the opportunity to retract the unpleasantness. I think Sandstein operated in good faith, but erred in using the hammer so freely. - MrX 22:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Note: Saedon wishes to communicate " I understand that my status as a regular does not allow to act with impunity, only that it should afford me a discussion... I did not word that well in my unblock request and do not want people to think that I think I am "above the law," or so to speak." Ironholds (talk) 22:57, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Unblock Bad block, worse response. In a situation where a warning to remove the material would have easily sufficed, we have an admin blocking a long-time editor with a clean block log for two days, then compounding the insult by using the obviously frustrated editor's unblock request as grounds for the initial block. This is the kind of action that loses long-time editors. Mistakes are made, and both parties seem to have made one. Deciding to dig in your heels and justify a bad block after the fact is just a slap in the face, and that's the kind of insult that causes editors to become understandably frustrated with the entire process. This block isn't "preventing" anything, and an admin needs to lift it immediately. Dayewalker (talk) 22:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Unblock - Warning would have been the best action, the block is not necessary - I'd consider this "lesson learned" and leave it at that. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Bad block - Compared to others discussed somewhere else (ahem) Saedon has no history of incivility and to jump straight to a block without talking to him and gauging his reaction is ridiculous. There's a double standard here. Why? --NeilN 23:03, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Unblock. It is true that scientology is a ridiculous cult, but obviously one cannot say that "we do not need members of said cult to build our articles on the subject", certainly not in the context of an AE discussion because you then blame whatever the discussed problem was there on merely scientology membership. However, one shouldn't block people without warning when they make such mistakes the first time here. If this were repeat behaviour, it would be different. Count Iblis (talk) 23:09, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• I have unblocked Saedon based on the consensus of the discussion above. --Jayron32 23:25, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Jayron32 has just unblocked me and I wanted to take this opportunity to say a couple things. Firstly, thank you very much to Ironholds and Dennis for helping me throughout this ordeal. I also want to thank all those above who supported me being unblocked and Jayron32 for pulling the proverbial trigger. Secondly, I would like to acknowledge that I understand my comment was very poorly worded and those who know me know that I generally have a more professional decorum. I also agree that Sandstein acted in good faith and harbor no ill will towards him, though I would ask him to consider far less drastic measures in the future when dealing with editors who have broken a rule but who do not have a history of doing so. Like Ironholds, I am concerned that Sandstein's interpretation of the blocking policy is not in line with that of the community but I do not think it needs to be discussed further - I am sure there will be self reflection on both our ends (and this is not to diminish his hard work at WP:AE, where he is actively dealing with some of the most difficult cases on WP).

Lastly, I plan on abandoning my Saedon account and I am going to resume editing on my original account, User:Noformation. The reason being that my original account has a fair number of talk page watchers who may have been able to expedite this process today (not that I plan on getting blocked in the future :D) while User:Saedon does not have enough to even register a number. Anyway, I'm glad to be back so let's get on with the editing! Sædon 23:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to Jayron32 for unblocking. Tony (talk) 09:28, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Threat of violence on my talk page

Due to a recent revert on Mongolian language that I made,

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mongolian_language&diff=562761021&oldid=562108558
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mongolian_language&diff=562761598&oldid=562761021
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mongolian_language&diff=562765395&oldid=562761598

Orgio89 (talk) has made the following edit on my talk page:

Chi yahlaaraa Mongol helnii huudsiig hyatad hanzaar bohirlood dairaad baigaa yum be! Chi germand torj osson hari evrop setgelgeetei novsh baina. Mongold baigaa irged Mongol helniihee huudsiig oorsdoo zasaad medeed hiij baina Mongoliig hel soyld bitgii gai bolood baigaarai. Bolohgui bol evropt baigaa Mongolchuudaar chamtai tootsoo bodoj chadna shuu!!!

The text reads in translation:

'How can you / dare you pollute the page on the Mongolian language with Chinese characters? You are a German-born, foreign-thinking piece of garbage. The Mongolian citizens take responsibility for the page on their Mongolian language themselves. Stop being an obstacle / pain in the ass to Mongolian culture. If you don’t, I can contact Mongolians in Europe and make you pay!'

The crucial last sentence can be glossed as follows:

“Bolo-h=gui bol evrop-t bai-gaa Mongol-chuud-aar cham-tai tootsoo bodo-j chad-na shuu!“ (become-future.participle=negation if Europe-dative be-imperfective.participle Mongolian-plural-instrumental.case(“by”) you-comitative(“with) bill think/calculate-converb can-future/generic illocutionary_particle(“I tell you”))

While I don't think that this threat is concrete or that this user could identify me, this is the first threat of violence that I have experienced on Misplaced Pages. As I am fairly sure that Orgio89 wouldn't be impressed by any form of polite answer (in contrast maybe to Ancientsteppe where a similar angry argument without threat started on my talk page, but became somewhat more peaceful in the course), maybe some kind of administrative intervention / block would be appropriate.

As a sidenote: the issue at hand (about which both Orgio89 and Ancientsteppe are unhappy) is

• the classification of Mongolian (=Mongolian, Buriat, Oirat instead of those three being separate languages, a very reasonable position held by most Mongolian scholars, while English Misplaced Pages currently follows the equally acceptable stance held in most of Europe and Russia), all other Mongolic languages being spoken by racially different people who might be short of being Mongolians (a position unrelated to linguistics)
• all things Chinese must be unrelated to Mongolian. The current version of the loanword section is a bit too Chinese-heavy, but editing here must be done in a reasonable way so as to give prominence to different semantic fields. The inclusion of Chinese characters here has its pro-s and con-s. The Secret history, in contrast, happens to be transmitted only in Chinese transcription, so it must be included as it is.

(As I don't really intend to discuss the issue, but rather Orgio89's aggressive behavior, I have not notified Ancientsteppe about this discussion.)

Best, G Purevdorj (talk) 23:50, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

"""1.""" Sorry on my some little too far type of rant on your talk page!

"""2.""" Purevdorj G. does not have official education about the subject on Mongolian language that he is editing on Misplaced Pages, which he states on his front page that he has non Mongolian motherlanguage and ways he edited the disputed wiki page. Misplaced Pages information supposed to be created as close as possibly scientifically accurate but this english version of the page is the most vandalised page version compare to other language versions. Here is original Mongol version and German version and Russian version of the page which in both Germany and Russia there are far more Mongolian language and culture researchers or their expatriates who lived in Mongolia concentrated than other countries. Which these 3 versions are interestingly in very close format than English version plus in English version there are third language scripts this time Chinese writings involved. Why in most probable accurate 3 versions there no any 3d language writings involved but in English?! """3.""" From East German era there are thousands of east German expats and educators lived and worked in Mongolia from 1950-1989 period so there are at least hundreds of Germans who has certain competitive level of Mongolian language unofficial education with obvious reasons. In this German version page I checked Purevdorjs edit contribution in history section and he has contributed only once in Nov 2008 for its 8 years of history others were all native Germans edited the page. If Purevdorj has German motherlanguage and some "confident level of Mongolian language level" why cant he integrate the German format with English version ways he editing like "supposed official Mongol linguist"?! """4.""" Here are the daily Mongolian news sites that could support my edit effort of Mongolian language page: mongolnews.mn news.mn ; and this is Mongolian government public outreach page: zasag.mn . From these websites facts you cannot find any 3d language writings like Korean or Hindi or Chinese except some English brand name terms on news site. """5.""" Based on these unruly incidents of Purevdorj any admin please please ban him or block his access to Mongolian language so contributors with realistic knowledge can edit the desputed page. Thank you. Orgio89 (talk) 02:12, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Plus my edit efforts of Purevdorjs vandalized Mongolian language page actually started in March 2013, it is months of ongoing effort against vandalisms made by limited knowledge contributors not a recent incident as Purevdorj originally trying to claim. Orgio89 (talk) 03:23, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

If this admins board might include anyone who has certain good linguistic knowledge base please carefully assess this vandalism situation and please stop this very sophisticated vandalism going on this Mongolian language page relative to these other formats: original Mongol version and German version and Russian version. Thank you. Orgio89 (talk) 03:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Aside from the above example, you can also track the edits made by the user in question to Aeroflot, where their addition of a video has been removed by at least three other editors (including me) after being restored by Orgio89. To honor the truth, and unlike with G Purevdorj's example, my contact with Orgio89 was not that tough. I do not speak Mongolian, but if the translation above is true, both examples show that we're having an editor that behaves not precisely in the expected collaborative way.--Jetstreamer  01:40, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Jetstreamer your interest of taking down any one who is not obedient to your interest sounds pretty amazing! That video was clearly in the subject details of the page and was very informative addition to the page which in point of origin Russian version of the page it well passed their local mods regular monitoring. So why do you need to bring "this huge issue" who is not obedient to your personal interest to this notice board?! Orgio89 (talk) 02:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Whether or not someone has "official education" on a subject isn't relevant. Any editor can edit Misplaced Pages. If the edits are not helpful, they will likely be reverted. Disagreements should be discussed on an article's talk page (which appears to have been occurring in this case). The issue here at ANI is a personal attack/possible threat, nothing else. It is clear that such actions are unacceptable and are never tolerated in Misplaced Pages. Who made what edit in which linguistic version of the Mongolian language article is just a smokescreen which obscures the issue at hand. Taroaldo ✉ 04:02, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

(ec)Orgio, regardless of the content matter, you cannot ever threaten other editors. You need to immediately withdraw that threat (cross it out if you know how, or simply state that you withdraw it here and on G Purevdorj's page, or you will be blocked from editing. You must discuss matters civilly, or you cannot edit here. Let's deal with that matter first, before we figure out how to recommend dispute resolution on the topic. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

According to Misplaced Pages:Responding to threats of harm, Orgio89 should be blocked, but I will give him/her a chance to apologize and withdraw the comments in the manner you specified before I block. Gamaliel (talk) 04:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

But my months of editing effort against vandalism on Mongolian language done by other contributor should not be ingored here, I provided clear facts that how the page getting vandalized relative other pages plus local information facts. I explained and asked sorry in the first place in my post how else do I need to ask sorry on his obvious vandalism effort?? Orgio89 (talk) 04:17, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Orgio89, I accept that you're now apologizing, which is good, but at the same time, you're actually making things worse. His edits are very very much not vandalism. Misplaced Pages has an extremely strict definition of vandalism, which you can read at WP:VANDAL; the short version is that it only means someone either spamming or trying to make Misplaced Pages worse, like saying, "<Person> is a stupid poo-poo head! LOLOLOL". Just because you disagree with his edits does not make them vandalism. When you disagree with someone, what you need to do is go to the article talk page and discuss the matter. If you can't agree between the two of you, then you need to get help from others via dispute resolution. Hwoever, the matter that Jetstreamer raises is also a problem--you can't just try to force your opinions onto Misplaced Pages. You may be right, but you've got to follow a reasonable, civil process to discuss the matter and get to the "better" version. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Qwyrxian thank you for your reply and explanations! Just in case I request that any 2-3 of you please carefully consider this Mongolian language page vandalism matter and solve the vandalisms on information accuracy relative to other valid versions please? : original Mongol version and German version and Russian version , . Orgio89 (talk) 04:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Plus in my initial post there are clear facts supporting that how the inaccuracy vandalism is going on on that page. Admins should not ingore vandalisms! just compare with my provided 4 other language versions please. Orgio89 (talk) 04:47, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The editor has not apologised nor withdrawn the remarks on the user's talk page, and does not appear to understand how inappropriate his/her behaviour was. I would suggest proceeding with the block. Taroaldo ✉ 04:39, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I have withdrawn my post and my request on admins assessment on vandalism alert or intended innaccuracies/vandalism alert on disputed page must not be ignored by admins! Orgio89 (talk) 04:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

This is likely the biggest in English accuracy source in the west for any admins assessment process. Orgio89 (talk) 05:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Orgio89, this is now the absolute final warning to you: if you misuse the term "vandalism" once more, you will be blocked, for as long as it takes for you to understand what's wrong about it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:19, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, scrap that. Having looked a bit more into this editor's conduct and the way he's been involved in tendentious edit-warring ever since he arrived, I come to the conclusion that the time for more warnings is over. This discussion here is proof that Orgio89 is not yet prepared to learn what it means to edit in a collaborative environment, where editors are expected to respect each other's contributions and viewpoints. I'm indef-blocking, until such time as he gives a credible commitment that he is prepared change perspective. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

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