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Edit this section for new requests

Andranikpasha

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Andranikpasha warned to avoid future violations of revert parole. White Cat is admonished for stirring the pot and trying to cause more flame-warring. Moreschi 14:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

"a radical turkish site on Armenian "allegations" is not acceptible. see the admin comments." That is in violation of the revert parole. Also the edit summary is inadequate as the removed site is a US Department of Defense funded non-profit organization. -- Cat 15:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

At first, I reverted once after the revert parole. And what's more important, Cat, a supporter of sites like "tallarmeniantale", is adding another redical site on Armenian genocide denial marked by admin Picaroon as "...atmg.org is definitely not a reliable source. It is unsuitable for verification purposes, and should not be readded." Other users also opposed but anyways Cat is continuing to readd the Turkish site on Armenian "terrorism" and "allegation" (of Armenian Genocide) etc. I was placed under revert parole after Cat sent suggestions to admin Moreschi ("User:Andranikpasha, a user you had once banned indef is causing problems at List of attacks by the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia. I thought you'd want to look at the Arbitration enforcement page."), while we have a conflict with Moreschi on Moreschi's possible pro-Turkism. Will User:Cat also be placed under revert parole?? Andranikpasha (talk) 15:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a clear violation of parole by Andranikpasha, his previous rv on the same article was on December 28: , and then he made another rv on December 31: Grandmaster (talk) 16:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Really? I was placed under parole on December 29! Andranikpasha (talk) 16:14, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Andranikpasha was your revert strictly to bait me into reverting again so that you can complain and get me placed under a revert parole? -- Cat 16:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

White Cat has a history of trying to add entirely inappropriate sources to that ASALA page. Nobody has edited it since December 30, so his latest complaint seems like stirring. He seems to have a bee in his bonnet about the Armenians so I'd favour a restriction on his editing on this topic area. --Folantin (talk) 16:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

But that's not all. Andranikpasha rvd Shusha pogrom (1920) on 31 December 2007 (removed the tags and the figure of 500 dead with the reference to de Waal from the intro, restoring his preferred version of intro under the false pretext of adding the source to the text) , and then reverted the article again on 3 January: . So this is 2 rvs in less than 1 week, i.e. a clear violation of the parole. If you check the history of the article, you'll see that Andranikpasha was removing the reference to de Waal and the tags from the intro since 7 December. Grandmaster (talk) 16:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Please stop, Grandmaster! Look again I didnt delete the source by modern journalist de Waal but moved his number of 500 (see the talk, you never discussed!!) and even added some more text by the same author and other authors. At least read the edit summary: "expanded, journalist de Waal added"! Is it a revert?? About after-Dec. 7 edits: I asked you many times to start discussions for Shusha pogrom at talk but you never did, just reverting. Seems to be a simple pogrom denial! Andranikpasha (talk) 16:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
You restored your version of the intro and deleted de Waal and his figures from the intro, together with the tags, it is a repetition of your previous rvs on this article. You persistently removed that figure from the intro for the reasons unknown to me. Same with the tags, you removed them many times without any consensus on talk. Clear violation of rv parole. Grandmaster (talk) 16:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Once again: this intro is not only "mine": I discussed it many times at the talk, you never answered. And both "commonly disputted" tag deletion and de Waal moving were happened first time (and after I explained it at talk), what a repetition? I wrote about the intro at the talk, pls read it at first to not ask why?
And who's edit's are more dubious at Shusha pogrom (1920)? at first Grandmaster said:"This article needs to be nominated for deletion for obvious POV issues and lack of any reliable sources" (Aug 31, 2007), then "The battle was initiated by the Armenian side. As result of the battle, the attacking Armenian side lost and the Armenian part of the city was destroyed in the counterattack of the Azerbaijani army.", now he's using a source which he call's reliable and this source says "terrible pogroms" took place in Shusha (just with a lesser number of those Armenians who was killed): sorry, this is an encyclopedia, not a good place for the propagand of denial... Andranikpasha (talk) 16:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Andranikpasha's not getting blocked today, you can't apply revert parole retrospectively. Moreschi 17:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Cat seems to continue to wikistalking me. he added the same problem also to ANI . The text contains even some false info included that I was placed under revert parole by... Thatcher. I prefer to have an admin comment on Cat's behaviour and suggested revert parole for him. Andranikpasha (talk) 17:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
In case of Shusha pogrom (1920) the parole does not apply retrospectively. Andranikpasha was placed on parole on 29 December, and after that he reverted the article twice, i.e. on 31 December: , and on 3 January: . Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in my opinion it is a clear violation of his parole. Grandmaster (talk) 18:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, considering the link to cu that you posted at WP:ANI: , we know that Andranikpasha was permanently banned in Russian wikipedia for edit warring, POV editing and sockpuppetry, see this cu at Russian wiki: , and his involvement in mass user page vandalism in English and other wikis, as well as in commons, source, meta and other projects, will there be any further actions based on the findings by cu? Grandmaster (talk) 18:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, here you are correct. I've warned Andranikpasha to avoid future violations of his parole, which will be rewarded with blocks. Here I think we AGF and say like as not he simply forgot. Moreschi 14:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Grandmaster, pls read more carefully before to answer! About so called "revert" (do you mean the undiscussed one by Parishan?) I answered earlier! And pls differ "cu" from the "requests for cu". As well as we need to differ "Shusha pogrom" from "Battle in Shusha", and "Armenian allegations and terrorism" from "Armenian genocide". WP:SOAP. Thats all! Andranikpasha (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

This is issue is being properly handled over at ANI. . VartanM (talk) 06:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see it being handled there. It is about a different issue. I think the history of disruptive activity of Andranikpasha across various Wikimedia projects, including vandalism in English wiki, should be reviewed by the admins. Grandmaster (talk) 07:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Stop to harrase me, Grandmaster! Andranikpasha never vandalised Misplaced Pages, do not represent possible wishes (I dont want to describe them) as a reality! Andranikpasha (talk) 12:56, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Accusing another member of vandalism goes strongly against WP:AGF, and the WP:NPA. I hope neutral admins review that. VartanM (talk) 08:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I hope so too, especially contributions of this IP range: According to cu on meta, "there is a strong technical correlation between the Andranikpasha ID on many wikis and 217.118.95.* (or 217.118.95.0/24)". Talk page of this IP is quite interesting too: I think the admins need to investigate this issue thoroughly. Grandmaster (talk) 14:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster, do you think the "Strong technical correlation between the Andranikpasha ID on many wikis and 217.118.95.* (or 217.118.95.0/24)" means "history of disruptive activity of Andranikpasha across various Wikimedia projects, including vandalism in English wiki"? One more pseudo-propagand and falsification of the text? Andranikpasha (talk) 14:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you check contributions of that IP range before saying that. Grandmaster (talk) 14:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Where's the logics, sorry? You said its me, and now you suggest me to check what that IP done! Thanks no need! Im not a checkuser (the checkuser didnt made any decision yet!), nor have a time for this IP. I just prefer a little more civility by you while calling my activities a "vandalism"! Andranikpasha (talk) 14:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm sorry I missed this thread before it closed, (I would have welcomed a nudge to come participate) but I and other CUs have been investigating this for some time. Let me reiterate, there is a strong technical correlation between Andranikpasha and the IP range 217.118.95.* (or 217.118.95.0/24) on this wiki and on many many (I ran checks on a LOT of wikis as part of this investigation using my shiny new Steward buttons) other wikis. On many other wikis the sole contributions made by users and IPs in this range (that is, by this user, see "strong technical correlation") are to attack other users (a persistent pattern is after an admin takes action on one wiki regarding this user, this user attacks or vandalises that admin's pages on many other wikis) or to disruptively interfere in the smooth functioning of the wiki. While en:wp does not and should not take what other wikis decide to do as the sole guide to what to do, it would not be prudent to completely disregard this user's history and behaviour patterns elsewhere. I would suggest the reason this user has been relatively well behaved here is because this user is being closely watched. Several other wikis have banned this user, or blocked the IP range. My conclusion is that this user is a persistent and disruptive vandal and trouble maker and I recommend at the very least that a very close watch be kept in accordance with the parole. Myself I would have just blocked the user completely here and been done with it. I welcome any questions or concerns. ++Lar: t/c 15:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Wait a minute! What means strong technical correlation? Is it proved we're factual one person (included the IP ranges)? And according to what a person can be banned in a Wiki if there's a "strong technical correlation" between him and other (mind, already blocked and paroled) users in other language (I found out only Russian and French) Wiki's. Sorry, looks like a stalinist principle! Be sure the users who made this retrospective "case" and wrote you to participate here are already watching me well:) Andranikpasha (talk) 16:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Originally Andranikpasha was banned in English wiki as well, but admins here took a more liberal approach than their colleagues in other wikis and replaced the ban with a revert parole. That most probably is the reason why Andranikpasha behaved more adequately here, but once his parole was removed because of a technical issue, he instantly resumed edit warring across multiple articles, for which he was placed on parole again. I think the admins should take into consideration the entire history of the activity of Andranikpasha in wikimedia projects when making a decision on this user. Grandmaster (talk) 17:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, though current behaviour is given priority. Now, this discussion really can close. Moreschi 18:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Moreschi: not yet. Andranikpasha: Checkuser can never prove or disprove anything. What it provides is a way to estimate probabilities. "Strong technical correlation" means that I find it highly likely that you and the IP range's edits on many wikis are one and the same, and higly improbable that you are different. I'm a strong believer in giving people a second chance, if they come clean. You can pussyfoot around if you want, but you'll get farther with a lot of people if you are more straightforward. I'll ask you here what I asked on my talk: Do you admit that you are the same user as the IP range, and as the other users named, across the many wikis that the case names off? Do you admit that you have in the past been disruptive, and have vandalised pages of admins at many wikis in retaliation for something they did to address your disruptiveness at one wiki? Let's for the sake of argument say I am only referring to things that I believe you did more than 3 months ago. Your honest answer to that question will in part determine what I do next. ++Lar: t/c 18:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If Andranikpasha was indeed banned from other language Wiki’s, he was then punished for what he did. According to which policies is it acceptable to watch over his other contributions in other Wikis to punish him here?

If indeed using evidences from other Wikipedi’s are valid, then in this case there are evidences of members canvassing to have Andranikpasha banned from English Misplaced Pages. Grandmaster's first post on meta was on 09:16, 21 December 2007 , only few hours after Jayvdb made his checkuser request on Andranikpasha . With his limited knowledge of Russian, (he doesn’t even claims to know it in his userpage), Jayvdb managed to make such a history of Andranikpasha's contribution on Russian Misplaced Pages. It would have taken some basic mastering of the Russian language to know according to the contributions and have verification on that Ashot account. We know very well that on English Misplaced Pages Andranikpasha was first banned because of Grandmaster's attempt to have him banned; we also know that Grandmaster who masters Russian is also a regular contributor on Russian Misplaced Pages. I don’t think there is any coincidence or it is too much far fetched to say that Jayvdb proxies for Grandmaster by posting those evidences gathered by Grandmaster to request a checkuser. What use these really have if not to bring it over to English Misplaced Pages to further discredit Andranikpasha?

Jayvdb has a long history of coming to Grandmaster’s defense in an interval of few minutes, like here where he voted 14 minutes after Grandmaster supporting his position and even claiming fringe opinion about a subject he didn’t seem to know anything about. Here we can check the history of Shushi Pogrom and see Jayvdb's persistent one sided interventions. Or Paytakaran where he introduced Grandmaster change by merging both versions etc. Apparently he now wants to become a clerk, I believe he should be restricted to enforce any policies concerning this case as a party to this case.

Those harassments have to suffice, Grandmaster was able to have Andranikpasha restricted, more than this would obviously be a bad faithed attempt to have him silenced. It is nothing more than a double standard, WhiteCat's actions on Commons are claimed to be irrelevant here, so lets be consistent and judge Andranikpasha according to his contributions here. Administrators canvassing and talking behind our backs has TO STOP!!! VartanM (talk) 20:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You forgot to mention one minor detail, Vartan. We are talking about Andranikpasha's contributions to English wikipedia in the first place. That IP range was engaged in repeated user page vandalism here, in the English wikipedia, which seems to be a continuation of Andranikpasha's conflicts with admins at other wikis. His disruptive activity across the multitude of other wikimedia projects is just a useful background to demonstrate the editing pattern of this user, which is the same everywhere. I don't think this thread should be diverted towards discussion of other editors and admins, the point here is that CU supports that Andranikpasha was engaged in disruptive activity on many wikis, English one included. He is not an innocent victim of the conspiracy of certain users and admins. In that case the conspiracy must exist in every project he was banned from. We need to wait for Andranikpasha's response to the questions asked to him. Hopefully it will clarify certain matters. Grandmaster (talk) 20:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
So you don't deny that Jayvdb proxied the evidence for you. How old is that IP vandalism, and do you have direct evidence connecting it to Andranikpasha. VartanM (talk) 22:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Grandmaster, even this IP range stopped his activities at English Wiki much before I opened my account (Andranikpasha). And in the list at MetaCU we can find only one user who was banned (that is Russian one). And even without this all you wrote never justifies the sad reality VartanM marked! Andranikpasha (talk) 21:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I've asked you a direct question and I'd appreciate a direct answer. If you choose not to answer I will take it as tacit agreement that you and the IP users are one and the same. ++Lar: t/c 22:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Can you show me the policy under which this investigation is being conducted. And can you tell me what does a six month old IP vandalism has to do with Andranikpasha's current status here at en.wiki. This whole thing looks like a witch-hunt to me. VartanM (talk) 22:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Dacy69

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
blocked for 7 days by Penwhale

Dacy69 (talk · contribs) has a long history of blocks for edit warring and is back at it after being absent for three months. The first thing he did after coming back was a mass removal of the WPNK tag, with the following edit summary "there is no such thing as Artsakh except armenian name of Azerbaijani region. It is clear attempt to legitimaze illegal entity" This was very disruptive and uncalled for. Not to mention Armenia being in lowercase. VartanM (talk) 19:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Other than those reverts his next edit was a deletion of an entire sourced section:. That's all that he did after a three month break on the day of his return, not very triumphant or constructive. -- Ευπάτωρ 20:52, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Not to mention the two sentence "justification". VartanM (talk) 20:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Ah, that. 7 days. - Penwhale | 06:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

VartanM
The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

I think we can conclude with this thread, a continuation of which seems to be taking place below. El_C 23:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Reverting my edit on the talk page calling it "vandalism" ? I am not sure if this is civil, when I clearly provided a rationale for the removal of the tag . This project Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Karabakh is clearly a divisive nationalist WP:POV push by a group of contributors. The icon map used for this project is a pure provocative fabrication, as Nagorno-Karabakh never had such borders neither as administrative division within Soviet Azerbaijan nor as unrecognized military establishment of Armenia. But what's most disturbing is that some members of this project are trying to rid Misplaced Pages of any historical reference to word Azerbaijan or Azeri, examples , . Thanks. Atabek (talk) 13:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, there wasnt any state in the place of the modern Azerbaijan called Azerbaijan before 1918. Its a fact. See f.e. the NYTimes archives to finish this long discussion. And lets assume a little more good faith and to not call Karabakh "nationalism". Surely you know the history, you know about historical Artsakh, about the anti-Armenian decision of Stalin according to NKAO, the oppression of Armenians during the soviet period, and that the existance of modern NK Republic is a fact! Andranikpasha (talk) 18:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Come on, guys, please! This isn't helping anyone. Step back a bit before you all get yourselves banned at Armenia-Azerbaijan 3. Deciding to promote Wikiproject:Karabakh at this point in time is a seriously bad idea. Can't you see how much Armenian and Azeri users are trying admins' patience here with the eternal edit-warring over Nagorno-Karabakh? How about a moratorium on NK articles for at least a month. Surely there's plenty to work on elsewhere. Remember, Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. --Folantin (talk) 18:22, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Good idea Folantin! Happy New Year!! Andranikpasha (talk) 19:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Removing the project tag because you don't like it, is called vandalism. Happy New Year to all. VartanM (talk) 19:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Happy New Year everybody. Let's just try and make 2008 calmer in this neck of the woods if we can. --Folantin (talk) 20:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Folantin, and have killed the WikiProject for a month. Everyone, please take a break - or at least fight elsewhere. Happy New Year to everyone. Cheers, Moreschi 21:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Why is it that when I do something harmless to the main article, the whole projects gets "killed", but when some other users disrupt the project by mass reverting its a "fight elsewhere". Please redirect the project to its talkpage, I had proposed something and I was waiting for a reply from the rest of the members. VartanM (talk) 00:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, Nagorno-Karabakh topic is quite disturbing and annoying already as an article to further make a project out of it. Happy New Year and all the best to all! Atabek (talk) 10:43, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

If even Artsakh is disturbing to you:) its exists! If to start to delete everything that disturbs me here I think will not be a good consensus! Andranikpasha (talk) 13:17, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Andranikpasha, please, refer to WP:SOAP regarding "its exists!". It's not disturbing to me as a subject, what's disturbing is that Nagorno-Karabakh article and any subject mentioning it is a subject of edit wars since the start of Misplaced Pages. So creation of POV project under this name will not serve well to Misplaced Pages. Atabek (talk) 14:10, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

If something exists in real life it cant be a POV! It can have a denial, that's why the editwarrings are going on by the opposers of NKR. Andranikpasha (talk) 14:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Happy New Year everyone. I was late to join this discussion, but I can say that this wikiproject is a very bad idea and will result only in further escalation of tensions between the 2 communities. I see no reason for its existence, it covers the same articles as Wikiprojects Armenia and Azerbaijan, and all the members of NK wikiproject are also members of the Armenia wikiproject. I don't see what this wikiproject can do that cannot be done by Wikiproject Armenia. NK wikiproject is clearly divisive and nothing good will come out of it. Wikiprojects are not intended to divide editors, on the contrary, they should help editors join their efforts to create an encyclopedia. NK wikiproject is not the one that serves this purpose and therefore it should be eliminated. Grandmaster (talk) 14:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Grandmaster. Creation of that Wikiproject will bring to extensive editwarring. By the same token, Azeris can create projects on current Armenian territories which were claimed by Azeris (Zangezur, Geycha, Irevan khanate, etc.) and add tags to every article. Do you think it would do any good? Ehud (talk) 21:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think User:Pocopocopocopoco is quite listening to what some administrators commented on above. He again reinserted the Karabakh Wikiproject tag back into the talk page . Thanks. Atabek (talk) 21:38, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Macedonia edit wars

Can somebody please have a good look at Ireland101 (talk · contribs) and Tsourkpk (talk · contribs) and apply Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#Discretionary sanctions as seen fit? These guys have been fighting a bit too much for my taste recently. I'd do something myself, but I'm probably a bit too non-uninvolved by the Arbcom's current standards. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

A little more to go on? Which article(s) should we look at? Thatcher 14:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Basically every article Ireland101 has been editing lately has been in an edit-warring situation with either Tsourkpk, Megistias (talk · contribs), Kékrōps (talk · contribs) or other Greek users. See Vergina Sun (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Bryges (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Rosetta Stone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Macedonian dynasty (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Macedonians (ethnic group) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Hellenization (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and so on. It's all over the place. Difficult to say who's picking these fights, whether it's Ireland editing tendentiously everywhere, or the others stalking him (as he evidently feels), or both. Also see the current complaint thread at WP:ANI#Ireland101 and Tsourkpk. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for pointing this out Future Perfect. In almost all of those situation those editors/meat puppets were reverting my edits with no explanation.Ireland101 (talk) 17:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
What would you think about a 1 revert per week per page limit for Ireland101 and Tsourkpk? Thatcher 15:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I've put Ireland101 on revert parole and logged it, holding off for now on other actions (which I believe are needed). Kékrōps (talk · contribs) is also coming up reverting in quite a few of those page histories listed above. Thoughts? Moreschi 17:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand why I was put on revert parole considering that I always include edit summaries and have no history of edit warring. I have only reverted vandalism and thought that was the purpose of the Counter-Vandalism Unit. Ireland101 (talk) 17:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
No, that's not what the CVU is for. Evidently your definition of vandalism is a little off. Moreschi 17:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
  • In response to Moreshi's request for "thoughts", reverting is not an endorsed editing method anyway, so 1RR is probably the least restrictive sanction we can think of, certainly less so than page or topic bans, and I would think it could be liberally applied, although with either an expiration date or a promise to review (after 3-6 months perhaps). Thatcher 17:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Anyeverybody (AKA User:Anynobody) and Barbara Schwarz
The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
Upon further developments, Anyeverybody is banned from making any Barbara Schwarz-related edits in any article for 30 days.http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Anyeverybody&oldid=179970442] Thatcher 02:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


I am respectfully asking for enforcement under Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS, specifically Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS/Proposed decision#Article probation.

Anyeverybody (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (AKA Anynobody (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) or AN) is violating the intent of the DRV on Barbara Schwarz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (a Scientology-related article) by creating WP:POVFORKs of deleted materials. He added a long bit to Neutral reportage, here, giving clear undue weight to Schwarz. He did the same at Freedom of Information Act (United States), here, in which he put her on a par with J. Edgar Hoover and Ronald Reagan. He apparently recreated the deleted article as a disamb page which was then undone and the page protected. He is engaging in WP:BLP-violating discussion of her mental state on a user talk page (User talk:Tilman#Barbara Schwarz and Scientology).

I am well familiar with AN's tenacity when he takes an interest in a subject as I was once the object of his attention and it took an arb ruling to get him to back off (Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS/Proposed decision#Anynobody prohibited from harassing Justanother). I am respectfully requesting that an administrator please inform AN is no uncertain terms to back off on Schwarz. It is of note that the DRV page itself was blanked. AN should stop with the undue attention to Schwarz. This project has made its decision as regards her and he must abide by it and not try to find ways around it. As far as his POV forks, I have fixed most of the one at Neutral reportage as that one was a no-brainer but I would appreciate if an uninvolved party would take care of the undue weight at Freedom of Information Act (United States). Thank you and Happy New Year. --JustaHulk (talk) 15:16, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you're going to have to take this up with the closing admin IronGargoyle and ask him if outsourcing information from Barbara Schwarz to other articles is considered acceptable under the terms of his close of the deletion review. In my opinion, we need clear evidence that Anyeverybody's edits are considered disruptive before restricting him from Schwarz-related material under the terms of remedy 7. Picaroon (t) 15:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Some of the DRV comments suggested that Schwarz could be added as an element to related articles. It seems reasonable to include her at Freedom of Information Act (United States), although the content still must meet BLP and I am concerned about the length of the material. Neutral reportage is more of a stretch and is probably not needed, and the recreation of Barbara Schwarz as a dab page definitely falls outside the scope of the DRV (although the page was first recreated as a redirect by another user). Thinking about this some more. Thatcher 15:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I see that the point I was going to make has already been pointed out by Thatcher, that the deletion review concluded that there was not enough for an entire article (not all mention of her from Misplaced Pages).
I don't want to get into too much detail about the merits of each article (that's what their talk pages are for) but feel that an overall explanation would be germane here. Regarding the FOIA section, it may seem a bit lengthy but all information comes directly from the cited sources. As to neutral reportage, one of the sources for the FOIA section was sued by her for simply reporting both what she and the government employees said about one and other. If anyone takes a moment to read it, the fact that it doesn't judge her one way or another comes through. More than one secondary source discusses the implications of her claims against the Tribune had the court found in her favor.
Anyone still having access to the old article may notice that there was also much more questionable information featured in it which hasn't been "reincarnated". (Nor would I support such a reincarnation without better sources.)
Also, doesn't changing consensus apply to this article as well? For example if Ms Schwarz was in the news for a new notable reason, surely a prior deletion review would be at least rethought and her article could be recreated. (Unless/until that happens the most I could see using it for is a disambiguation page. Whether one agrees or disagrees that this individual deserves mention in two separate articles, I think we can all agree that if anyone is mentioned in more than one article but doesn't have their own, a disambiguation page is just another "no-brainer".) Anynobody 00:44, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
If you were going to write an expansion of neutral reportage to illustrate how the doctrine has been applied in practice, there are presumably many fine examples that do not require delving into the personal problems of a possibly disturbed person. This is one of the facets of both BLP and NPOV#Undue weight. Choosing to highlight the specifics of this case over others would be inappropriate. The situation is possibly different at the FOIA article where Mrs. Schwarz is in a more unique position. However, I caution you to respect both the principles as well as the letter of the BLP policy, and note that even the FOIA article, becomes by extension, a Scientology-related article by its mention of the subject, and if your behavior is disruptive you can be banned from it (or even from mention this person) under terms of the article probation. Thatcher 01:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I hadn't planned on expanding beyond what was already there, but in regard to your assertion that other cases must illustrate the doctrine better, I'd be surprised. If you read the SLT article it simply presents both sides without judging either. So essentially she felt that the article ruined her life because people talk about it when they see her and call her crazy. They (the Tribune) didn't report any untrue information and lets face it, people think her story is crazy, and she essentially blamed the Tribune for it. Meaning that if, for some reason the court found for her, papers would be reduced to a policy of "If you can't find anyone to say nice things about people, then don't say anything." Other defamation suits I've heard of, there was at least a question as to whether the paper was defaming a subject.
I understand your warning about consequences for being disruptive, but could you please explain just how adding sourced information to relevant articles about a person is disruptive? (Shouldn't there be some edit warring or heated talk page debate to even begin talking about disruption?) Anynobody 03:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
It is possible to write a good article about Rape without describing any individual victim or their case, no matter how interesting. Likewise, it is possible to describe the doctrine of neutral reportage without referring to individuals or, if it improves the article to describe a case illustrating the doctrine, it is better to use a case that does not turn on the behavior of an individual. Part of BLP is understanding that just because we can say things about a person that are true (or at least properly sourced) but also hurtful to that person or their family, doesn't mean we should. This person appears to be notable from the angle of her FOIA activities, but I doubt she is a typical or even notable test case on the neutral reportage doctrine. (I noted for example no law review articles that mention her; meaning that she has not been written about as either a notable FOIA filer or as a notable neutral reportage case.) To answer your other question, it could be considered disruption if, for example, you continued to add information about this individual to multiple tangentially related topics and ignore concerns expressed by other editors. So far we are not in that realm. Thatcher 04:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Since this does not appear to require enforcement at this time, the report is closed and the philosophical discussion can continue

elsewhere. Thatcher 04:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Actually I have a question/point about an aspect of possible enforcement. I can totally see where adding information about this subject to articles without sources either at random or in remotely related subjects would be disruptive. That's not what I am doing at all, and it sounds like you think the general tone of the accusation is not far from true. For example please look at User talk:Tilman#Barbara Schwarz and Scientology if you haven't already.
  • I asked if he knew of any German sources discussing her unique situation where religion is telling her to stay away from what could actually help her, is mentioned.
  • He provided what he knew of.
  • I politely advised that while I agree with his assessment of the sources I also didn't think it was enough to source a WP:BLP claim on. Moreover I stated what type of source I thought would do to meet notability regarding her and Scientology.
Essentially I just want to be emphatic that I'm not trying to game the system in any way. (Hell if I was, would it be a good idea to tell Jimbo about it?) Anynobody 06:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


Additional response Upon further developments, Anyeverybody is banned from making any Barbara Schwarz-related edits in any article for 30 days.http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Anyeverybody&oldid=179970442] Thatcher 02:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

What does that link have to do with this situation? Anynobody 03:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, you said the philosophical discussion can continue elsewhere. Which is what I did, moreover I didn't replace the info exactly as it was before. Anynobody 03:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
You also re-added the material. As I stated on Talk:Neutral reportage, the fact that you choose to highlight this specific case as an illustration of the principle, rather than the cases that actually set precedent, suggests that your priorities are focused on something other than making Neutral reportage a well-written and comprehensive encyclopedia article. It would be like writing a biography of Abraham Lincoln and adding as the most important fact about his law practice the fact that he shared a bed with his law partner. It shows your priorities are elsewhere. Thatcher 07:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Giovanni33

Giovanni33 was placed on revert parole (once per week, per article) here for a year, as was I. On the Jung Chang article he reverted 08:33, 31 December 2007 after a break of 1 week and 10 minutes (the previous revert was made 08:23, 24 December 2007. Such a tiny time difference indicates he is gaming the system. Furthermore I think reverting during the holiday season on Christmas and New Year's Eve is an example of him trying to get a revert advantage by hoping a user such as myself would be too busy to notice what he was doing. If he was acting in good-faith I believe he would have waited until after New Year's and made sure everyone was around - he didn't even leave a message on the talk page asking if people were there or not.

As can be seen on the talk page Giovanni33 frequently reverts, does the minimum to ensure he doesn't get banned by leaving a comment "explaining" his revert and then disappears for a week before he starts this again - his lack of discussion of the matters prior to reversion can be seen by his recent edit history.

He is disrupting the article by refusing to co-operate with other users. He continues to push his POV, despite the urges of myself and User:Fullstop for him to self-revert and gain consensus for his desired changes first. I gave him more than 24 hours to at least respond to our comments before reporting him here, but he has made no response. John Smith's (talk) 14:28, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

JohnSmiths makes several false claims here. First, though, if I am guilty of gaming the system by reverting shortly after a week, then so is JohnSmiths, as he has done exactly this, as well. Its hypocritical of him to come here to file a complaint about me, describing a behavior, he is currently engaged in. Also, he if he correct about me editing against consensus, then he would not need to revert himself---he would leave it to someone else to revert me. But, instead he is the only one who reverts me. Again, if my edit represents something against consensus, then surely, someone--anyone--would revert me, not JohnSmiths. Lastly, his comments here and on the talk page consistently demonstrate a violation of policy: the failure to assume good faith. Hence, his statement that I must be waiting for holidays, Christmas, New Years, in order to make my edit, "hoping that he would be too busy to notice what I'm doing, etc" Classic bad faith. Of course, it didn't occur to him that just maybe that is when I have some free time, in order to edit? Of course not. Lastly, he says I'm not cooperating. Also untrue as proven by my discussions on the talk page. And consensus is not establised by just two users--himself and Fullstop, esp. when they don't address the problem I've raised about bias.Giovanni33 (talk) 19:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Giovanni, you are misrepresenting the facts. I reverted having tried to discuss the issue with you on the talk page first - you decided not to interact. I also reverted several hours after a week. You reverted 10 minutes after a week. So, quite clearly, you are comparing apples with oranges.
As for someone else reverting, some users never like to revert unless it's vandalism. Whether people revert or not does not reflect consensus.
To accuse me of bad faith because I believe you acted in bad faith is a rather poor attempt to deflect criticism. Unless you wish to claim that the only free time you have over the next couple of weeks is on Christmas and New Year's Eve, there was no need to push the issue right now. As I said quite clearly you could have continued this matter after the holiday period. To not even attempt to see whether people were free on the talk page is not acting in good faith given how busy a lot of Wikipedians are at this time of year.
Finally, I don't see leaving a comment, reverting and repeating once a week as you have done as being a sign of co-operation. I have said this time and time again - if you cannot spare the time to post, say so and highlight when you are free to talk. Yet for some reason you keep refusing to do this. Why do we have to run around you? John Smith's (talk) 19:49, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
  • You will both stop the foolishness, or you will both be blocked. Revert parole is absolutely not an entitlement, it is a limit. Breaking the spirit while keeping to the letter of a restriction is not acceptable, the intent of the restriction is to get you to stop revert warring not just make the wars slower. Guy (Help!) 10:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Guy, what am I supposed to do? He won't listen to reason - Fullstop has been on at him too. I've complained to admins here and elsewhere, but no action has been taken. If I don't revert he will keep the article as he likes it and then leave it there. In the past I have also not done anything for days, trying to engage him in conversation. Then when I see no response I make a change and hey-presto he appears like magic, reverts, leaves a single comment and disappears for another week.
Are you implying that if he reverts again and I come here first, he will be banned? Some sort of statement would help - otherwise he won't change his behaviour. John Smith's (talk) 11:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
The pair of you are pretty much indistinguishable, from a behaviour point of view. What I see there is two competing versions, neither acceptable to the other. The solution is either to achieve consensus for one or other on the discussion page, or to work out a compromise form. Guy (Help!) 12:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Guy, that doesn't answer my question. If Giovanni reverts again can I leave the page alone safe in the knowledge that he will be blocked if reported here? You made a warning by saying "stop.... or you will be blocked", so that implies action will be taken. Can you make it clearer so that a future admin will definitely do something and Giovanni knows where the line is, so he can't complain he didn't know he was doing anything wrong. Otherwise it's another vague warning that he won't take seriously.
The only reason I have reverted is that each time I come here no action is taken against him. If admins such as yourself did block Giovanni for reverting and not properly engaging in discussion then I wouldn't. The effect of the response so far from the admin community is that it's ok for Giovanni to revert because he's sticking to the letter of the rules, but wrong when I respond because it goes against the spirit. That would essentially give him the right to edit any article I work on as he likes and ignore what others want. I have discussed various issues with him for almost a whole year now. He isn't some casual editor who it is easy to work something else out - he is never happy until he gets his own way. I worked out a compromise version with User:Fullstop and Giovanni - Giovanni then wanted to change that to another version which he insisted on by himself. I'm not saying that is what you think, but it's what the previous comments from admins amounts to.
If you honestly believe I'm no different from Giovanni, read what Fullstop had to say here. He is a completely neutral editor in this whole affair, only becoming involved after I asked a style question on a page he frequents. John Smith's (talk) 13:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Like I said, the solution os for both of you to stop edit warring ans start discussing. If he refuses to discuss, and if there is consensus on the talk page for your preferred version, and he reverts anyway, then it's an unambiguous case. Joining in the slow-burning (and distinctly lame) edit war only makes it impossible to distinguish between you. Guy (Help!) 16:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, Guy, for seeing through JohnSmiths dishonesty here; the obvious fact is that we were both reverting each other, just after one week (with no other editors reverting)--and this is not what should be done. JohnSmiths should really give admins here more credit; painting a very one sided picture here, in an attempt to bully his way via intimitation, instead of reason, to get his version, will not work. As for myself, I'll seek, through a Rfc, others editors to look over the dispute and see if there can be some consensus that is reached. I hope JohnSmith will stop his weekly revert, and if he continues when its clearly against consensus, I hope that your warning to both of us here suffices as an adequate warning to his ongoing behaviors that violate the spirit of the revert parole, not to mention his throwing rocks while himself living a house of glass.heheGiovanni33 (talk) 06:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
So does this mean that you will stop your weekly revert, Giovanni? Also you might want to state whether you need to agree to something for it to be consensus. I'm sorry it had to come to this, but I don't think you would have made any commitment to seek outside help if I hadn't reverted you and reported you here. The repeated comments from Fullstop and myself weren't succeeding in encouraging you to seek outside help so something else had to be tried. John Smith's (talk) 07:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Pocopocopocopoco

User:Pocopocopocopoco is mass reverting and reinserting the closed Wikiproject Karabakh tag, without leaving any comment , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , . That's 17 reverts or (re)insertions within 30 minutes. Atabek (talk) 22:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Is he the subject of any arbitration ruling? I can't see that he is. This is for enforcing arbitration decisions only, not dealing with disputes. Contact him via his talk page and if necessary go the administrators' board.
When you do ask for an arbitration ruling to be enforced, please list each new case at the bottom. John Smith's (talk) 22:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The contributor is already involved in edit wars in several articles on the topic of Armenia-Azerbaijan. The relevant ArbCom stated a remedy on applicability to all disruptive editors, under which User:Aynabend and User:Andranikpasha have already been placed under parole for disruptive editing. That's why I reported the mass reverting to WP:AE as it deals specifically with Armenia-Azerbaijan related articles. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 22:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Bah. I've rolled back all his edits, which made no sense as that WikiProject isn't going to be allowed to exist for at least another month. Thinking about other stuff as well, maybe. Moreschi 22:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

No, leaving this for now. I've left a warning against making future mass reverts. He's not an ultra-regular participant in the Armenia-Azeri conflicts and edits regularly in other areas, nor is he subject to any of the AA2 restrictions: moreoever, his recent block for edit-warring was related to another topic altogether. Moreschi 22:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Well shouldn't User:Parishan be placed under AA2 restrictions then? Since he mass reverted and is an ultra-regular participant in the Armenia-Azeri conflicts and all his blocks are related to the conflict.-- Ευπάτωρ 23:13, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I reverted them before the warning was issued. I've only been blocked three times and my most recent block was not related to the conflict, and was carried out almost 10 months ago. Parishan (talk) 23:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I want to state that I wasn't aware of any of this drama when I reverted back in the wikiproject template to the articles and I apologize if it's caused grief to anyone. The reason for the revert was summarized in the edit summary of my first revert. I felt (and still feel) that adding this wikiproject would facilitate greater collaboration and participation to the articles and hence facilitate the improvement of the articles and the project. One of the areas that I edit are unrecognized countries and hence I joined this wikiproject and I find it useful to collaborate with other editors interested in Nagorno-Karabakh. I am neither a participant in WikiProject Armenia or WikiProject Azeri (although they are probably both interesting topics). My understanding is that Atabek's (and other peoples) concerns are with the image in the template. Could we lift the moratorium on this project if we change the template to a neutral template? Please see the template in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Abkhazia. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Not only. Provided that this POV project is currently forwarded to Wikiproject Armenia, it's sufficient to add Wikiproject Armenia along with Wikiproject Azeri on disputed topics. Atabek (talk) 07:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Every project has a POV and you can not censor a project because you don't agree with it. VartanM (talk) 08:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
The vast majority of WikiProjects are not out to push a POV, believe it or not. Moreschi 18:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The concern is that this is an ethnic POV project about a region which has diverse ethnic and historical identity. Nagorno-Karabakh is a conflict between Azeris and Armenians, between Azerbaijan and Armenia, not between Azeris and some non-existent ethnic group Karabakhis. History of Karabakh does not exist outside and independent of Azeri or Armenian domain. Atabek (talk) 08:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

That makes no sense. Wikiproject Azerbaijan is an ethnic POV project about a region which has diverse ethnic identity. There are group of members who are feeling there is a need to collaborate in a common project and no real life conflict or dispute can not stand on their way. We are here to build an encyclopedia and no one has the right to stop us from doing that. Moreschi censored the project simply because it was hurting some users feelings. Expect to see those project tags to go back up once the project is re-opened. Maybe then you'll come to terms that Nagorno-Karabakh Republic exists. VartanM (talk) 09:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
De facto yes, de iure no. Vartan, you know this - you're deliberately trying to fan the flames here just to piss off the Azeris, quite frankly. Why? Down that route lies wiki-suicide, I warn you. More on this to come below. Moreschi 18:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I only said the opposite of what Atabek said, where is the warning to Atabek for calling Nagorno-Karabak people non-existent? Or was that non inflammatory? It was the direct cause of my suicidal comment. VartanM (talk) 00:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

As I see it, the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh is the source of almost all the conflict between Armenian and Azeri editors. This conflict has reached fever pitch over the past few weeks, as anybody can tell from looking at this very Arbitration Enforcement page. We should be looking to cool things down not inflame them. Promoting Project:Karabakh right now is definitely not going to help matters. The only reason we have projects in the first place is to help build Misplaced Pages. They are not there to demonstrate editors' allegiance to a particular stance, although inevitably this is a big temptation with "national" projects. Nobody needs a project to edit a topic area anyway and people have worked on NK articles long before the existence of Project:Karabakh, which was virtually dormant until a couple of days ago. As I've said, we should be looking to turn the heat down on the current Armenia-Azerbaijan dispute on Misplaced Pages, otherwise I can see another ArbCom coming round the corner - and that will benefit nobody. --Folantin (talk) 09:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds right to me. I think somebody needs to patiently explain that, while we appreciate and understand their national pride and historic grievances, Misplaced Pages is not the place to refight old battles, but to document them in terms on which both sides can agree. I'm guessing most of them don't have English as a first language, which often makes nuance conversation more difficult. Guy (Help!) 10:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Let me ask a question: Would Atabek and Grandmaster, for example, be welcomed at WikiProject_Karabakh? Thatcher 19:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Absolutely. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Joining the project would go against their belief of Nagarno-Karabakh being non-existent, . Other then that, they are welcome to join, the same way some of them joined project Armenia and versa. VartanM (talk) 02:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's start with this: none of you should want to go down the route of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3. The arbitrators will lose their patience and ban the lot of you, which would be sad, really. The conflicts over Nagorno-Karabakh have got to stop, or at the least slow down, because I know this could so easily be the blue touchpaper that gets everyone kicked out. Trust me: I spend a lot of time hanging around ArbCom-related stuff and know quite well the limits of the arbitrator's patience.

Another point is this: nobody needs a WikiProject to edit, and if it's collaboration needed or some such concept, use the talk page or existing projects - Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Armenia or WP:AZERI. Don't use this ghastly creation that's only going to aggravate one side of the conflict, is only ever going to push a POV, and as Vartan's "Maybe then you'll come to terms that Nagorno-Karabakh Republic exists" gives away, is only ever going to a statement of intent along the lines of "We believe in the NKR. Amen.".

That's pointless. It's got nothing to do with the encyclopaedia. You don't need to this WikiProject to do this. At the moment, both sides here are potentially staring at the abyss over the edge of the proverbial cliff edge - I urge you all to step back before you pull each other over. ArbCom is the whirlpool waiting at the bottom. Moreschi 19:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not doing anything deliberately, if you're gonna enforce any policies, then you have to assume good faith on me the same way you seem to always assume good faith for the other side, who just recently created and mass voted against the deletion of a FORK of 4 or even 5 articles. I haven't seen you say anything about it. Or their opposition to the renaming of a category which claims Azerbaijani Khanates, when most of the results on google book call them Persian or Iranian Khanates (how is this not provocation, and how is this not a deliberate attempt to fan the flame war against Iranian users?). The category on Artsakh, call it what you want should exist, and only the fact that various articles can be included in it is strong evidence. Other similar categories about other non de jure republics exist, I haven't seen you say anything about for instance this category. Also, I'd like Thatcher to clarify on what he means by welcomed? Why should they not, is Thatcher insinuating that they won't? When anything prevented Grandmaster or Atabek contributing before? I am surprised that Administrators are still consistent and systematic on taking one sided position on this issue.
If you wanted to help, you would have brought the two side to discussion to know what to do to satisfy both, but instead, you removed the category and excused a user who again massively reverted (Parishan). And for your information, the reason why I have chosen Artsakh and not Karabakh, is because both are not the same, Artsakh encompassed a larger territory and has a history in the BCs. But that could have been debated. It is sad that Golbez got pushed out from mediation, when he was known to revert both sides, he was replaced by administrators, who under the guise of arbitration enforcement systematically make one sided decisions. It is also fishy that I am included in the probation for something as ridiculous as an edit summary which has everything to do with the content of the article, but that Parishan who has a much longer edit warring history than me and who can make such remarks: ...you deleted it just because you personally disagreed with it. systematically gets away from such a probation.
And Thatcher, before claiming that Eupator action of renaming an article could have warranted a block, you should have understood the rational behind it. The talkpage was full of justification and Eupator had to deal with users who claimed Turkmen (aka Turkoman) as Azeri (eg. , and ironically seen in this diff., he's only recently accepted Turkic in the article, but it's still inaccurate) to dump all Turks or Turkic people as Azeris (from Moreschi's logic, should this not be to fan a flame war, after all Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan have some problems in terms of their relations these days). This was all I had to say. VartanM (talk) 21:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know why User:VartanM decided to include issues regarding the Azeris in Armenia discussion here, and I could not help but notice that he has presented facts one-sidedly which is why I thought I should leave a quick comment. I apologize if I am going offtopic. Eupator's rationale (which participants of the discussion had no chance to review, since the user renamed the article from the very moment he presented his arguments) was challenged by me presenting a number of neutral sources equating the terms for Turkic-speakers of pre-Soviet Armenia to Azeris . All Eupator said in responce could be classified as original research, i.e. inventing terms ("proto-Azeris") and facts ("Turkic population living there were not identified by one group", "Turkic population there could have been identified as Turkmen, Turkish, Tatars"), restating his disproved rationale and ultimately failing to prove that the subject of the discussion had anything to do with Turkey, or Tatarstan, or Turkmenistan, similar to VartanM's claims above. Original research is also defined by Misplaced Pages as unsourced information obtained from personal experience, so I don't believe there was anything incivil in saying "you personally disagreed".
As for my reverts, I removed a link to a non-existing project, one time per page, before the discussion over WP:Karabakh was in progess. I was not edit-warring, nor proving a point, nor making incivil comments. Parishan (talk) 07:49, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
That's not true, the discussion was started here on the arbitration enforcement, most users implicated did engage. Eupator continued the discussion on that article, you knew that Eupators claim was sourced and you accused him of original research even though couple of sources were already provided. Several of the administrators were witness of the discussion which was if I remember correctly closed by Thatcher. Also, I don't see why you bring proto-Azeris, where did anyone requested this to be added in the article? Also, it's funny, now recently you just agreed with Eupator rational in your reply to Ulvi just here, if you knew this and agreed with this why did you continue the flame the war then? But this is still not accurate, because those people were as Turkish, Turkmen etc., and if you are going to cover them you can not restrict them in an article about Azerbaijani's, when that section was taking a very significant portion of the article.
As for the removal of the WPNK project tag, you actually removed it when you knew I was going to appeal for the removal of the project itself. It is not the first time you mass reverted, we brought this during the last arbitration, and you did it again afterwards when you retaliated and made a POINT by adding Azerbaijani terms in 21 articles about Armenia. Anyway, we're off topic and I agree that I have my share of responsibility. VartanM (talk) 19:59, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Moreschi, the problems with collaborating with regard to Karabakh stuff within the two wikiprojects you mentioned is that could take up a lot of space within WP:Armenia or WP:Azeri and this might not be ideal. Please have a look at these articles that were to be created. I was planning to add a whole bunch more related to companies operating and based in Karabakh. I think this could potentially swamp WP:Armenia or Azeri. Perhaps some Armenian and Azeri wikipedians are not all that interested in Karabakh (I believe user:Aramgutang was one of them) and they join there respective wikiprojects in order to collaborate on Armenian or Azeri culture. Another option would be to create a sub-project within the respective wikiprojects similar to how WP:MILITARY has many task forces we could set up a task force within one of the wikiprojects. This would be the worst option IMHO because setting up a Karabakh task force within one wikiproject would make it tempting for the editors of the other wikiproject to also set up a Karabakh task force within their wikiproject. Hence editors that aren't of either ethnic background (such as myself) would be left having to pick a side and offending the other side and it would further cause strife between the two groups of wikipedians. Hence I feel a Wikiproject Karabakh that is inclusive to all editors regardless of ethnic background and is independent of the two wikiprojects is the best option. I fully understand if the consensus is to wait a little while to let things cool off so I will take your sugestion and put the relevant pieces in my user space as I feel this project was gaining momentum and I would like that to continue. Please see User:Pocopocopocopoco/Karabakh_collaboration and let me know if this is OK for a temporary collaboration until the moratorium is lifted on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Karabakh. Once it is lifted, I will update the project from this my user space. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Let's imagine that I and other Azerbaijani users signed up for Karabakh wikiproject, will you be for instance willing to remove all the "NKR" emblems from wikiproject userboxes and tags? Since the region is de-jure part of Azerbaijan, I believe that Azerbaijani colors should be included there. From what I see, this wikiproject is intended for Armenian users only, and participation of people not sharing pro-separatist POV will lead to conflicts over every minor detail. That's why I said that this wikiproject is divisive, which wikiprojects should not be, as they are intended to help editors to actually collaborate on creating a good encyclopedia. I don't see how this wikiproject is any useful and if there's anything this wikiproject could do that cannot be done in Wikiproject Armenia. Btw, Vartan's claim that "Wikiproject Azerbaijan is an ethnic POV project" is clearly bad faith. See how many people of various ethnic and national affiliations signed up for it and how good we cooperate on creating articles covering various Azerbaijan related topics. This wikiproject could be an example for others. I always welcomed Armenian users singing up for Azerbaijani wikiproject, see the talk of Azeri Wikiproject. If anyone needs more than one wikiproject to cover the NK issue, you are welcome to sign up to more than one well-established wikiproject. Grandmaster (talk) 10:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I envision that WikiProject Karabakh will be run similar to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Palestine in terms of emblems and tags. If you notice that WP:PALESTINE has both Israeli and Palestine participants and they have two user boxes. One userbox has the palestinian flag and the other is a non-political userbox. WP:KARABAKH can also have two sets of user boxes, one with the flag and the other say with image of the region. For participants that don't want a userbox with the flag they can use the one with the region. For participants who don't like userboxes they don't need to use userboxes. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 17:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

If I AGF, I'd say that you don't get it. NKR has a government, has schools, has libraries, has many other municipal infrastructures, has elections, has TV stations, newspapers etc., where, oh god where do those go? Project about Armenia?, project about Azerbaijan? Of course not. The Turkish republic of Northern Cyprus has its category, and has its flag on it, has all those emblems and logos which doesn't seem to bother the Greeks. And unlike what you claim, NK is not de-jure part of Azerbaijan, it is only officially part of Azerbaijan, NK used the Soviet law (legal) to separate itself, and declared its independence according to the law at about the same time as Azerbaijan. NK has a legal ground as a republic to exist, it is just that since Azerbaijan has oil, that NK is not recognized.

Are you telling me that you are willing to work for example in an article about the Armenian schools in NK? Armenian libraries, Armenian presidents in NK, ministers in NK etc.? Where have you ever contributed in those articles? You're making this as if you are prevented to contribute as if anything has ever prevented you to contribute before.

And we all know what happened when the Azerbaijan category was incorporated, users started removing Armenia and replace it with Caucasian Albania, removing Armenian and replacing it with Caucasian Albanians, adding Azerbaijani terms, for historic places, which were never called that way. By having one Wiki project about NK and replacing both Armenia and Azerbaijan is the only reasonable thing to do, all the other disputed territories have them, why shouldn't NK have one? VartanM (talk) 19:47, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

If NK had had any right to secession by the Soviet laws, it would have been recognized as a state long ago, no matter if Azerbaijan had oil or not. It does not happen and is not gonna happen, because it is not so. There's not a single authoritative source that supports such legal claims, and obscure law schools are definitely not such. I am not aware of any other similar wikiproject. You just acknowledged that this wikiproejct is intended for Armenian users only, which is not the way Misplaced Pages works. I don't understand why you need this particular wikiproject to contribute to all the topics you have just mentioned, if all the Armenian users are already members of another wikiproject (Armenia), which helps them to coordinate their activities? And yes, you can use Azerbaijan wikiproject to cover this particular topic, I see no real problem with that. Wikiproject Azerbaijan is not intended for Azerbaijani users only, and considering that NK is legally part of Azerbaijan, why not? Alternatively you can use the Armenian wikiproject, which aims to cover the Armenian people all over the world, as you do now. And your claims about Caucasian Albania is another bad faith accusation, I never added it to any topic not related to this ancient state. And the place names issue is another long standing dispute, that has not been resolved by now. I don't think divisive wikiprojects is something that we need now, considering that we have plenty of other unresolved disputes. Grandmaster (talk) 20:49, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Your assumption is original research, Artsakh declared independence before the Red Army invaded it, de jure is a legal concept, legally NK was never part of Azerbaijan, Nariman Narimanov who was the head the Soviet Azerbaijan threatened the Soviet Union to block its oil if NK was incorporated into Armenia. Since then, oil was an issue which passed before any laws (they already declared independence then), it is your original research to assume that oil which runs the politics on the region is not a factor. The Soviet Union does not exist anymore, and NK has used legal means to declare its independence. And the New England Center for International Law and Policy is not an obscure law school, the research here clearly say that NK has used legal means to declare its independence according to the Soviet Law, if we are not going to respect Soviet Law, then the pre-Soviet NK also declared its independence.

NK is only officially part of Azerbaijan, not De Jure, according to law NK should be independent, Azerbaijan is aware of this, thats why they boycotted every conflict resolution where NK is represented, because NK unlike Armenia has bases to apply to Hague according to the specific article on territorial claims which requires the two party to be present, Armenia is not considered to be a party according to Hague article on disputed territories while NK is. Various other articles also claim that the legal process was followed under which NK declared independence, like this. [ Here from a history course, it doesn't even say de facto or officially.

For decades NK has used legal Soviet means to gain independence from Azerbaijan, which were almost always granted and then reversed because Soviet Azerbaijan used its oil resources to threaten and have what it wanted even if the requests were made according to law. If Azerbaijan didn't have oil, NK would have never been granted to it in the first place. CIA declassified files show that US government underground is very well aware that NK has for centuries been semi-autonomous under the rule of Armenian princes and was as an Armenia's cultural and religious center , . Even during the Soviet era, the CIA recognized the legitimacy of NK requests when it was again brought to the table (in 1978): the inhabitants of another turbulent area in the Caucasus, the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast, are able to make a better argument that their oblast should be transferred from one republic to another. The Karabakh Oblast is part of Azerbaydzhan, yet over 80 percent of its population is Armenian and it lies close to the border of the Armenian Republic. In 1975, according to the Azerbaydzhan Republic newspaper, virtually the entire leadership of the Karabakh Oblast was ousted for supporting a movement to detach the oblast from Azerbaydzhan and join it to Armenia.

Given that Artsakh has a history of over 2 thousand years, which had kingdoms, principalities etc., and which is now currently an unrecognized republic, which has a VERY OLD history OLDER than Azerbaijan, it is legitimate to have such a wikiproject. It is not part of Azerbaijani history, nor the article is about Azerbaijan, and it's not part of current Armenia and not its Wikiproject, you can do this as the way you want, but it is obvious that a wikiproject of this entity should exist. As for your request to assume good faith, I wasn't specifically refering to you, but the general thrend to turn Armenian churchs as Albanian, the Armenian scholars as Albanians, the Armenian population as Albanian, Armenian princes as Albanian, Armenian principalities as Albanian and to make matter worst dump them as part of Azerbaijani history. The only legitimate move would be that Artsakh has its category with its own separate wikiproject. VartanM (talk) 01:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to turn this page into the dispute about the legal side of "NKR", this one is for different issues. It is enough to refer you to the International Status section of the article about "NKR", it is pretty obvious that NK is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan and “NKR” is considered illegitimate by the international community. This is the position of UNO, PACE, EU, USA, etc. Since NK is de-jure, i.e. in accordance with the international laws part of Azerbaijan, I don't see why it should be considered a separate entity. And since the region was in ancient times part of Armenia and Caucasian Albania, it could be pretty well covered by the Azerbaijan and Armenia wikiprojects, which cover those ancient states. You still have not answered my question if you would be willing to remove “NKR” symbols from Karabakh Wikiproject tags if I signed up for it. And as the admins notified you, the category and stub for NK were deleted as result of voting, obviously there’s no need to recreate them due to reasons cited by the admin. Grandmaster (talk) 16:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Thats wrong, NK is not de-jure part of Azerbaijan, it is only officially part of Azerbaijan. I have already explained above that NK has used existing Soviet laws to acquire its independence, during the independence movement it was shortly accepted before being denied illegally by the Soviet because of Azerbaijan SSR threats. De Jure means according to law, according to law NK is independent, but is not recognized as such, for the obvious reason of oil.
It's a Separate entity, because before the 20's, back from BC, that region was Artsakh, and for centuries at different times it was autonomous. It was the Armenian Cultural and Religious center on various occasions as the declassified CIA files say. Artsakh existed way before Azerbaijan, its population was and still is not Azeri Turks but Armenians, and plus it is an unrecognized republic. We have three legitimate arguments to have a wikiproject.
And it is not Karabakh Wikiproject, Karabakh and Artsakh have different delimitations, the current republic while in English is considered to represent the Soviet NK, it does not, it is not the same as Artsakh the republic, one contains Lachin for exemple, but the geographic NK excludes it. Many regions while not part of NK are included in historic Artsakh or the current NKR.
And it is also not exactly true that Artsakh is not recognized by Armenia, since Armenia officially calls it the Artsakh province, which means while not public it recognizes it as a province of Armenia. Both Armenia and Georgia have border disputes with Azerbaijan and according to international law, since neighbors dispute the borders its borders are not internationally recognized. So by citing names of organizations which consider NKR as illegitimate, you are not showing that the republic is illegal under international law, until Azerbaijan accepts NKR as a party and NKR bring this to international court, any claim that it is de-jure part of Azerbaijan as a statement of fact would be POV.
In short, the Wikiproject should exist, and I don't see why I should answer your question when you don't recognize the legitimity of such a Wikiproject. When other break away republics have such Wikiprojects. VartanM (talk) 05:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Grandmaster, we have WikiProject: Kurdistan, which is not separated from Iraq or Turkey. Do you think all the Iraqi and Turkish users are welcoming it? Andranikpasha (talk) 17:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
And I explained you that Soviet laws did not allow autonomies to secede, contrary to what some law schools may think. Officially = de-jure. International community does not recognize "NKR" and considers its government and president illegitimate. See declarations of CoE, EU and others about this: A state that does not have international recognition does not exist as a subject of international law, i.e. de-jure. I think this issue has been discussed enough, I see no point in existence of another regional wikiproject of a clearly divisive nature, while we have the ones on Armenia and Azerbaijan. Grandmaster (talk) 07:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
WikiProject:Kurdistan supports another practics! And no need to explain Soviet laws, USSR wasnt even a democratic state, and not Stalin's decision over Karabakh/Artsakh, nor tragic events as Sumgait Pogrom or Black January give any chances to Soviet laws. We have also a de-facto side: hundred thousands of peoples who dont want to live under the Azerbaijani rule and according to all the int'l reccomendations for people's self-determination formed a republic in 1991. De-jure recognitions is not the all, I can say we even cant compare it with the existed fact, the factual truth.Andranikpasha (talk) 13:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Namescases (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
blocked indef

Violation of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/MONGO#Links to ED by bypassing the spam blacklist using I'm Feeling Lucky. Keeps trolling for a link addition. Will 00:40, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Looking at his contributions -- see for example the early edit to Oklahoma, the abuse of a good editor adjacent to that, and the long trolling thread at Talk:Fidel Castro, prior to the trolling to add ED links -- it's amazing he got away with it as long as he did. Indef blocked. Feel free to disagree, but there's no need to waste time with this kind of editor; we're an encyclopedia, not a baby-sitting service. Antandrus (talk) 01:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Endorse, I was toying with doing the same. We can do without that kind of foolishness. Guy (Help!) 16:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Totally support this block, we don't need this bunk. I've noted it on the arb case block list too. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Another Eastern European spat
The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

The situation is analogous to the one I presented a few weeks ago; only the user in question that needs our attention has changed. The user in question is Matthead (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and he is a highly uncivil editor active in discussions related to various Eastern European topics, an area which has been subject to a series of recent ArbCom rulings noting the tendency for discussions and articles involving those subjects to deteriorate into wiki-battles, and the resulting need for civility enforcement. To be more specific: in the Piotrus case (closed on 19 August 2007), editors were reminded of the need to edit courteously and cooperatively in the future under the treat of further sanctions. In Digwuren's case (closed on 21 October 2007), several editors were banned, and the rest were warned not to use Misplaced Pages as the battleground and placed under general restriction ("should the editor make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below").

I believe that Matthead has constantly - for well over a year - crossed boundaries we expect our editors to keep. Below I will present a sample of his uncivil and disruptive edits that occurred since the last ArbCom ruling (Digwuren's case); please note that just a week ago User:Jossi, witnessing disruptive behavior of Matthead on this very forum, told him that "In looking at your edit history, I would argue that you need to be placed under the same restrictions specified at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#General_restriction" (technical note: there is even a dedicated template for this, see {{Digwuren enforcement}}). It appears that this warning has had little effect on Matthead, just a few hours ago he has attacked me on my user page, with the obvious intent of trying to minimize my contributions, offend me and chase me away from this project: (for some reason, he is evidently unhappy with me creating content - some of which was DYKed - related to Duchies of Silesia; his recent comments suggest I am a 'disruptive Polish nationalist' who should feel sorry for writing articles: , ). In either case, those edits of his represents only a tip of an iceberg; he has been uncivil and disruptive for a long time, and I believe that such behavior should not be permitted - especially since Digwuren's ArbCom made it clear it is not welcomed, and Matthead has been warned about it.

Evidence of uncivil and/or disruptive behavior:


--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 14:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Comment. Please do not drag me into your never ending and constant quarrels with other Wikipedians. Please desist from insulting me by calling me a flamer (I'd like an apology, btw). Your opening salvo of calling this a editor a "flamer" is not a very civil way to begin your displeasure with perceived incivility. Anyone is welcome to post on my talk page, and I encourage it, and do not consider it stalking. I read your posts and accusing someone of Racism here is really too much. This constant attempt to censor people who do not agree with you is unhealthy and unecessary. Lastly, please try to be fair and at least chide some of your own colleagues who engage in similar actions. That would be a good start. Have a good day. Dr. Dan (talk) 15:12, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Well you did offend me, and I expect an apology. Let it be noted that you claim that your refactoring was not due to a sincere realization that your remarks concerning myself were inapropriate and wrong, but as you put it, but because of a request of the closing administrator. Dr. Dan (talk) 00:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Indeed sources and information provided by Matthead have been controversial, right now another creation of the user is being considered for deletion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Metgethen_massacre

As one neutral editor remarked: I understand German very well and I can say: the websources that are there do not even mention this event - only the events at Nemmersdorf. And very telling: the website that does not work mentions "Junge Freiheit" (a extreme rightwing/nationalist German weekly) and when I google the names of the people there I come to Nazi pages, revisionist pages that dare to list this "event" alongside Auschwitz and Dresden Matthead's responce was Either User:Noclador does not understand German very well, or he is a liar, or both, as evident from above statement(..)In addition, User:Noclador attacks the Junge Freiheit as "a extreme rightwing/nationalist German weekly". This a newspaper was and is attacked by leftists as it exposes their shenanigans, yet defended by "the German Constitutional Court ruled in favour of the paper which can not be called right-wing-extremist". Frankly, noclador should be banned from English Misplaced Pages for spreading such lies

Such remarks seem incivil and provocative in my opinion

  • I will mention that Matthead's previous creation which was nominated for deletion:"Polish occupation of Czechoslovakia" had a title that could found only on one revisionist propaganda site outside of Wiki

under the title "JEWISH RACE WAR CLAIMED 20 MILLION GERMAN LIVES" (sorry for bringing this rather ugly example).

  • Lastly, as an example of emotional, incivil and flaming remarks Matthead engages:

In a discussion about medieval scholar other users received following remark: I love those Polonophil & Germanophobe guys that brought us the Polish Corridor, one or two World wars, Odra-Nysa line, and Misplaced Pages naming conventions

I believe current actions of Matthead to be incivil and not productive, also his usage of sources and terminology is a matter of concern as they seem to be unreliable or coming from sources that aren't of best scholary nature. Some warning to stop such remarks and engage in friendly dialog with other users would be a good start, as well as better look at sources used.--Molobo (talk) 15:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Matthead has been placed on notice of the general restriction (see diff). Ioeth (talk contribs friendly) 15:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Question and an important one: What is the user supposed to be doing now that prompts intervention? I understand that Piotrus has a big book of misdeeds from the past, and the user sure seems from such evidence to be unpleasant, but let's be very clear: the user posted to Piotrus's user talk page, and that's why there is supposed to be intervention? The statements that Piotrus points to as being the offensive ones that are supposed to be triggering this really don't seem like a big deal. I doubt that anyone believes that Piotrus is going to be driven away, and anyone attempting such a thing would have to really be misjudging things. I'm entirely uninvolved, although obviously contacted to take a look in, and even I thought that DYK was having a tremendous number of Polish themed mentions that seemed a bit trivial. I have little doubt that Matthead has/will cross the lines dramatically and be subject to sanction, but this really seems a bit minor to be bringing in all of this. Ioeth is correct to notify, but I would also like to say that it would be nice to bring in matters here only with better cause. Geogre (talk) 20:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Gatoclass

the related decision in the arbitration case Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#General_restriction

After Gatoclass failed to put away a well referenced article Holodomor denial, an important "Eastern European topic" by nominating it for AfD that was met with unanimous keep. After failed AfD, instead of adding any possible alternative viewpoints to the article according to WP:NPOV, without referring to any published sources for reference and justifying his opinions with an ethnic epithet instead: the guy chose edit warring and spamming the well referenced article with "totallydisputed" tag instead. Anyway, I couldnt put it better myself than a third party ThuranX comment addressed to Gatoclass:your comments, as linked from that AN/I, are defintiely bigoted assumptions that those who opposed your edits all lump into some vague anti-you category of eastern europeans. You're making an ad hominem attack on all those opposing you, suggesting that all they are interested in is emotional outbursts, not rational thought, based on your presumptions about their origins.. Further on,

In my opinion there would be nothing wrong with adding any conservative-soviet-communist supportive viewpoints that seems to me Gatoclass is standing for to the articles. However, this should be done with respecting the viewpoints of now democratic nations of Eastern Europe like clearly spelled out by WP:NPOV.The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly.

The fundamental problem with Gatoclass conduct has been that he has completely ignored the other important principle of WP:NPOV : The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. Since Gatoclass has not backed up any of his opinions on the subject by referring to any sources; In fact has spelled it out that his take on the subject is based on nothing more or less than WP:IDONTLIKEIT, (Gatoclass: I don't like the idea of having "denial" in the title) despite the fact of denial is based on the Encyclopedia of Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity: and is clearly cited in the article ; I believe his actions on the article have become counterproductive and disruptive and are in conflict with the decision of the arbitration case. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 06:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, didn't know about this "general restriction", but since you raise the matter, given that this is almost certainly your primary, if not only, field of interest, then I'd say you have a great deal more to worry about than I do given that you just referred to me as "bigoted". In fact, I think you guys may just have made a very big mistake in raising this particular bogeyman. Regards, Gatoclass (talk) 07:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
BTW, I will need a little time to prepare a defence against what I regard as a totally baseless charge that I used some kind of "ethnic epithet". My batteries are running a bit low right now and I need a little break away from this matter. I will post my defence here sometime in the next few hours. Thanks, Gatoclass (talk) 07:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


Please make a difference between commenting the content versus commenting personality. I definitely agree with ThuranX that your have used some 'bigoted statements' while supporting your opinions as listed above. However, I can't speculate on whether you personally are "bigoted" in general. As you might be an open mined person regarding anything else that doesn't involve the current subject.Thanks!--Termer (talk) 07:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

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