Talk:Genocides in history: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 04:43, 19 November 2020 edit180.216.180.68 (talk) Undid revision 989456059 by Beyond My Ken (talk) I am the original commenter, rearranging MY OWN comments on the talk page. It was overly verbose, I would like my arguments to be clearer. If I am doing something wrong, PLEASE explain, rather than summarily wiping out (what is for me) a lot of work, without any explanation. ThanksTag: Undo ← Previous edit		Revision as of 05:45, 19 November 2020 edit undoFuhghettaboutit (talk \| contribs)85,115 edits →"Euthanasia" problem use in article: commentsNext edit →
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	::In any case, I strongly reject that it is a non-neutral edit. My edit (and talk page discussion) was nothing to do with the fact that the Germans misused the term "euthanasia". I would welcome others' views and comments. ] (]) 08:54, 18 September 2020 (UTC)		::In any case, I strongly reject that it is a non-neutral edit. My edit (and talk page discussion) was nothing to do with the fact that the Germans misused the term "euthanasia". I would welcome others' views and comments. ] (]) 08:54, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
			:I to find it utterly jarring to see the use of "euthanasia" as it is employed here, exactly as described above – divorced from context, it reads as indicated: like it's vernacular definition; a reference to humane death, applied top those for whom it is a mercy, which in ''this context couldn't be more non-neutral''. It reads like something a nazi apologist might write. Don't get me wrong – I don't for a moment believe that is what's going on here in any way, shape or form, but that's ''the result'', given the nature of the subject, and we should not minimize how bad it really does sound. That is whay why that context absolutely needs to be either provided, if the word is to remain in use, or a term needs to be used that doesn't read like this, but can stand on its own without context, that very well may be beyomnd thew scope of an article that provides only summary entries. If any form of "euthenasia" is to remain, then, it needs some device to impart that context, such as scare quotes and linking to involuntary euthenasia, but I think "mass murder" suits fine, because it needs no context to pull it back from an unintended meaning.--] (]) 05:45, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

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Formatting and linking

I have cleaned up this article again because it seems that a bunch of my edits were incorrectly reverted. Here are my edits:

Per Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, for quotations, use only quotation marks (for short quotations) or block quoting (for long ones), not italics.
remove date links
remove repeated links (e.g., "genocide") and links to plain English words per WP:REPEATLINK (e.g., nation, disease)
remove boldface per WP:BOLDFACE
spell out acronyms (like PKK) on first use per WP:MOS
use a person's first and last name the first time he/she is mentioned (Tito, Obote, Mao)

Ground Zero (talk) 29 November 2010

Can I edit andcontribute to this this source

Can I edit this source? I really want to contribute to this wikipage.

Edit "Argentina"

At the moment it is stated that the "CPPCG does not include the elimination of political groups (because that group was removed at the behest of Stalin) ". While this maybe should just show the opinion of Judge Carlos Rozanski, it does not represent the more diverse historical facts. Actually, several states opposed the deletion of "political groups" from the convention and the finally successful attempt was led by Iran, Uruguay, and Egypt. Therefore, I think, that the Stalin part should be removed and the discussion of whose fault it is that "political groups" are not part of the Convention should be transferred to the Convention-article.

References

LeBlanc, Lawrence J. (1988). "The United Nations Genocide Convention and Political Groups: Should the United States Propose an Amendment?". Yale Journal of International Law. 13 (2): 277.

Massacres

This article indeed has many examples of people murdering other people, but massacres of dissidents or rebels is not genocide, nor is people dying it introduced diseases unless such massacres or introduction of disease were intentional acts to exterminate a people. Are we deliberately watering down the definition of genocide for some nefarious means? 120.22.17.10 (talk) 23:16, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

It is a loaded and political question. High above us, humble Wikipedians to decide. If we find a couple of RSes which say smth is a genocide, we construct an argument here, taking POV amd DUE etc. into account. Pls correct me if I am wrong. Zezen (talk) 03:19, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

You mentioned: Determining what historical events constitute a genocide and which are merely criminal or inhuman behavior is not a clear-cut matter.

Two American colloquialisms for that are semigenocide, semiholocaust due to:

not enough data
not enough deaths
not a single criminal side
not enough international acceptance of the facts

or some of the above. {{subst:xsign:18:40, 9 July 2020‎ 2a02:587:410e:ca26:206c:5769:e396:a34f}}

They may be colloquialisms to you, but I've never heard them before, and neither has Google. , , so I don;t think they'd be of much use to us. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:17, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

"Euthanasia" problem use in article

Use of the term 'euthanasia' here is not appropriate.

Extended content
It is defined as: Euthanasia is the practice of intentionally ending a life to relieve pain and suffering. (My emphasis) Nowhere in that Misplaced Pages article can you find a sense of the word where it could be used appropriately to describe Nazi or similar crimes. Indeed, the Nazi program is discussed there specifically, and categorically stated as euphemistic.

Extended content

It is defined as:

Euthanasia is the practice of intentionally ending a life to relieve pain and suffering. (My emphasis)

Nowhere in that Misplaced Pages article can you find a sense of the word where it could be used appropriately to describe Nazi or similar crimes. Indeed, the Nazi program is discussed there specifically, and categorically stated as euphemistic.

In modern terms, the use of "euthanasia" in the context of Action T4 is seen to be a euphemism to disguise a program of genocide, in which people were killed on the grounds of "disabilities, religious beliefs, and discordant individual values".

Mentions of it appear in the above-linked Aktion T4 article in inverted commas, e.g. "euthanasia campaign".

Extended content
By including it in this article, within a single sentence that lists "mistreatment of Soviet POWs" "crimes against ethnic Poles" "persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses" "the killing of Romani" "and other crimes committed against ethnic, sexual, and political minorities" and yet "euthanasia of mentally and physically disabled Germans" you create confusion. The contrast of terms is discordant, grotesquely so. And, most importantly, reduces clarity. Perhaps I did not select the most apposite replacement term, but I fail to see why my well-intentioned, and I believe, thoughtful, edit should be so summarily reverted by @The Banner: with no explanation whatsoever. Talk about a warm welcome! If someone has a better term, I'd be grateful if you put it into the sentence instead, but please, please, don't leave it as euthanasia, unmarked!122.105.187.37 (talk) 09:49, 17 September 2020 (UTC) Response to reversion rationale As you point out, it was the “official”(!) term used by Nazis, and often still used in discussing it. It is therefore completely in order to mention the word in WP articles that deal with Nazi atrocities.(I would point out, as an aside, that the Nazis likely had “official” labels, also, for the other atrocities in this same list, but there they are, shown simply and straightforwardly as I noted: ”killing”, “crimes”, etc. The mere fact of them having an official term, does not preclude the plainer, direct term from being neutral!) Perhaps because I referred to the well-understood modern definition, you imagined I was saying it must never be used in connection with Nazi actions. That is not it at all. My edit (and talk page discussion) was nothing to do with the fact that the Germans misused the term "euthanasia". (Indeed, as criminal as these acts were, in one sense they did not misuse the term for that time: Prior to the 1940s, "euthanasia" was more generally understood to refer only to painless killing, which I understand Nazis purported to do in these cases.) I accept that I may be wrong. I believe in the consensus approach. Perhaps others will chime in with their view. However, I believe you did not really address any of the actual points I raised, (only what you imagined I was saying. I apologise if my statements were not clear.) 122.105.187.37 (talk) 08:54, 18 September 2020 (UTC) Finally, I took the instruction in the editorial advice, “The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless” to heart. I thought it was rather uncontroversial, but, hey, you live and learn! You’re never safe from being surprised when you can find someone who argues that using the “official" term of the Nazis, despite there being a more factual label available, is the only way to be neutral. All the best to you, anyway, @The Banner:.

Extended content

By including it in this article, within a single sentence that lists

"mistreatment of Soviet POWs"

"crimes against ethnic Poles"

"persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses"

"the killing of Romani"

"and other crimes committed against ethnic, sexual, and political minorities"

and yet

"euthanasia of mentally and physically disabled Germans"

you create confusion. The contrast of terms is discordant, grotesquely so. And, most importantly, reduces clarity.

Perhaps I did not select the most apposite replacement term, but I fail to see why my well-intentioned, and I believe, thoughtful, edit should be so summarily reverted by @The Banner: with no explanation whatsoever. Talk about a warm welcome!

If someone has a better term, I'd be grateful if you put it into the sentence instead, but please, please, don't leave it as euthanasia, unmarked!122.105.187.37 (talk) 09:49, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Response to reversion rationale As you point out, it was the “official”(!) term used by Nazis, and often still used in discussing it. It is therefore completely in order to mention the word in WP articles that deal with Nazi atrocities.(I would point out, as an aside, that the Nazis likely had “official” labels, also, for the other atrocities in this same list, but there they are, shown simply and straightforwardly as I noted: ”killing”, “crimes”, etc. The mere fact of them having an official term, does not preclude the plainer, direct term from being neutral!) Perhaps because I referred to the well-understood modern definition, you imagined I was saying it must never be used in connection with Nazi actions. That is not it at all.

My edit (and talk page discussion) was nothing to do with the fact that the Germans misused the term "euthanasia". (Indeed, as criminal as these acts were, in one sense they did not misuse the term for that time: Prior to the 1940s, "euthanasia" was more generally understood to refer only to painless killing, which I understand Nazis purported to do in these cases.)

I accept that I may be wrong. I believe in the consensus approach. Perhaps others will chime in with their view. However, I believe you did not really address any of the actual points I raised, (only what you imagined I was saying. I apologise if my statements were not clear.) 122.105.187.37 (talk) 08:54, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Finally, I took the instruction in the editorial advice, “The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless” to heart. I thought it was rather uncontroversial, but, hey, you live and learn! You’re never safe from being surprised when you can find someone who argues that using the “official" term of the Nazis, despite there being a more factual label available, is the only way to be neutral.

All the best to you, anyway, @The Banner:.

While informally we may discuss the Nazi "euthanasia" program, with full understanding that we are speaking of an atrocity, it is unencyclopedic to use it here in this way. A person seeking understanding of Nazi genocide should not need to parse that, read between the lines, or contextualise.

Reversion rationale - I have reverted your non-neutral edit. It is true that the Germans misused the term euthanasia, but it is the official term in many cases. See for example Aktion T4. The Banner talk 15:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Non-neutral to remove "euthanasia"?

Your reply suggests the Nazi term is the only way to be non-POV (!), while saying nothing about how it may be confusing to the reader, as I contend.

People commonly use and understand euthanasia as in the definition above.

When people are all on the same page, or there is a fuller discussion around the issue, and Nazi use of the term euthanasia is contextualised, then referring to this mass murder program as “euthanasia" is not problematic.

When it appears in a list of contemporaneous, associated crimes that contrast starkly with the blunt labels assigned them, as here, then that has the potential to obscure clarity.

I was surprised to be directed to the Aktion T4 page, as it was evidence from that article that I used to support my change. The opening reads: "Aktion T4 was a postwar name for mass murder by involuntary euthanasia in Nazi Germany". Note here, as I mentioned in my earlier discussion, “euthanasia" appears in that article, but is perfectly clearly contextualised as mass murder, even if involuntary "euthanasia". As mentioned above, several WP articles use the word, but signal its dubious use by putting "-" around it, or other markers of non-standard usage. A similar understanding of the relevance and connotation of the terms is not present in, (and would not really be suitable for) the brief overview in Genocides in history article.

In any case, I strongly reject that it is a non-neutral edit. My edit (and talk page discussion) was nothing to do with the fact that the Germans misused the term "euthanasia". I would welcome others' views and comments. 122.105.187.37 (talk) 08:54, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

I to find it utterly jarring to see the use of "euthanasia" as it is employed here, exactly as described above – divorced from context, it reads as indicated: like it's vernacular definition; a reference to humane death, applied top those for whom it is a mercy, which in this context couldn't be more non-neutral. It reads like something a nazi apologist might write. Don't get me wrong – I don't for a moment believe that is what's going on here in any way, shape or form, but that's the result, given the nature of the subject, and we should not minimize how bad it really does sound. That is whay why that context absolutely needs to be either provided, if the word is to remain in use, or a term needs to be used that doesn't read like this, but can stand on its own without context, that very well may be beyomnd thew scope of an article that provides only summary entries. If any form of "euthenasia" is to remain, then, it needs some device to impart that context, such as scare quotes and linking to involuntary euthenasia, but I think "mass murder" suits fine, because it needs no context to pull it back from an unintended meaning.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:45, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

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