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Revision as of 03:37, 21 January 2019

• If you leave a message here, I will reply here unless you state a different preference. It's much easier for me to keep conversations in one place. Thank you very much for your understanding!

• Privacy note: Do not post any personal information about me on Misplaced Pages beyond what I disclose on this and my other user pages. See User:Middle 8/Privacy and WP:OUTING, which is taken as seriously as WP:BLP, as it should be.

• Please see my conflict of interest statement for acupuncture and related Chinese medical topics

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COI

I know you assert you have no COI, but that is troublesome view. Your livelihood depends at least in part on the acceptance of acupuncture, so adding content to the article which gives the appearance of validity is absolutely a conflict of interest. You have a vested interest in the content of the article, in a way a medical doctor would not. A doctor generally has no especial interest in whether treatment A or treatment B works, as long as she can choose either, so has no direct dependence on the validity of treatment A when writing about it. A provider of any specific alt-med treatment, by contrast, absolutely does have a vested financial interest in the content of the article. Guy (Help!) 10:43, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

@JzG: You're welcome to your view and it has merit, but of course there are big arguments against it too that we've been over (and over and over). You might recall that the pertinent RfC found no consensus that a COI exists for CAM practitioners (and FWIW opinion ran close to 2:1 against). --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • acupuncture COI?) 11:00, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Regardless, you have a vested interest in the legitimacy of acupuncture whic goes against the trajectory of evidence, so, regardless of any consensus re editing the article at all, you should not edit content relating to legitimacy. Guy (Help!) 12:26, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

@JzG: (a) (the subtext above you didn't catch) Since there's no consensus, why should I follow your preference? (b) (the forest people keep missing for the trees) If only there were a way for editors to modify/undo edits that they don't like.... --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • acupuncture COI?) 20:29, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Because WP:COI is pretty explicit: you should not edit where you have a direct vested interest in the content. Your livelihood literally depends on downplaying the fact that acupuncture is superstitious nonsense. Guy (Help!) 00:19, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Read the RfC. --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • acupuncture COI?) 01:35, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

You have a COI, by your own admission . --Ronz (talk) 19:51, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

I also have a pet Siberian Husky, which people keep mistaking for a wolf. If and when I no longer have it, that should moot the question of whether I have a pet wolf. --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • acupuncture COI?) 21:58, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

I have no idea what that has to do with anything.

You have a definite COI.

Please work from edit summaries for anything remotely related to acupuncture.

If you make any further controversial edits to any acupuncture-related articles, I think a ban is in order. A wider ban may be warranted. --Ronz (talk) 23:46, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

If I "have a definite COI", why is that obvious only to a minority of respondents at the first RfC and, so far, the current one? --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • acupuncture COI?) 00:09, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

You aren't all alt med practitioners. --Ronz (talk) 00:15, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Well, we're even, because I'm not catching any logic in that reply either. In any case, the fact remains: your position is not "obvious" to a majority, most of whom are not (or cannot reasonably be claimed to be, based on evidence) CAM practitioners or pro-CAM partisans. --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • acupuncture COI?) 00:36, 5 January 2019 (UTC); add to cmt 00:39, 5 January 2019 (UTC), 00:40, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

But that's part of the problem. You fail to see far too much to be able to edit the topic in a way that doesn't violate COI and related policy. --Ronz (talk) 00:50, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Recent diffs? --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • acupuncture COI?) 01:11, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Pretty much everything here. It's all IDHT while avoiding personal responsibility. Please just use edit requests, and listen to others rather than arguing. If you honestly don't understand something, ask questions and demonstrate interest in perspectives other than your own. --Ronz (talk) 02:24, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your views and concerns. I will continue to edit mainspace judiciously, per PAG. If and when we collaborate, I look forward to doing so at the highest possible levels of Graham's hierarchy. Happy editing. --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • acupuncture COI?)

Hatting

Hatting your own content and then adding comments before the hat is disingenuous. It makes it look like I commented after your final comment. Do not do that again.AlmostFrancis (talk) 04:40, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

@ User:AlmostFrancis: You're referring to this two successive edits. I certainly didn't mean to imply that you commented after my final comment. Nor, FWIW, did I believe I was collapsing the text over anyone's objections, since I was changing my mind and conceding your point. No disingenuousness intended whatsoever -- I do not play such games -- just trying to thread it readably (and I thought the dates and my comment being right at the top of the collapsed section made it obvious). Anyway, more than fine to put the comment in chron order. You're also of course free to de-collapse it as well, although I don't think it adds anything useful to the page at all. I regret my role in this mini-drama, and again, my edit wasn't meant to cast your edits in a bad light at all, and I hope nobody took them that way.

While on the subject of article talk: Several of your comments go too far in commenting on the contributor (e.g., , ), which, like our little side discussion, isn't generally helpful, especially on article talk. Making too big a deal of one's objections to another editor's edits, and trying to spin that into a general narrative that they're a bad editor, is an old game (WP:SANCTIONGAME, #1), and while sometimes effective is likely to be seen through and can boomerang on the accuser. Plus it's just low class. My point is that some of your comments, whether you mean them that way or not (I take no position on that, at this time), could be taken that way, so, word to the wise.

Also, read WP:IAD if you haven't, good stuff.

BTW, don't forget to sign this comment. (Note that I avoided any personal criticism when pointing out this mistake)

Happy editing, --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • acupuncture COI?) 08:16, 11 January 2019 (UTC); ce, 20:52, 11 January 2019 (UTC); fmt & fix diff, 20:59, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

Thank you ... for being persistent and continuing to edit in the face of hostility. I don't endorse your views or your edits, but Misplaced Pages needs more expert editors, not fewer. You at least deserve basic respect.

feminist (talk) 00:07, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words! Fortuitous choice too since I've been a happy ownee of numerous cats. :-) --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • acupuncture COI?) 03:37, 21 January 2019 (UTC)