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Shadow Cloth

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Gigantomachia

I'm unsure where to place the information about this novel. It was written by both Masami Kurumada and Tatsuya Hamazaki, and takes place between the Poseidon and Hades chapter.

Movies info added

A brief info about all Saint Seiya movies was added now. --Robvaler 06:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I added "Theme song" info. --Robvaler 07:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Possible copyvio

The "Other Information" section is the same word-for-word as the Saint Seiya introduction at http://www.saint-seiya.com/

Googlecache

This text is actually used all over the net on various Saint Seiya web pages. I have no idea who the origianl author was, or even what site used it first. Is it safe to consider it public domain then?

No, it isn't ever safe to assume so, number 1. Number 2, its redundant information with other sections. --Snarfies

Where are the films?

Abel, Erys, Lucifer... ¡There is no mention whatsoever about the films! Aren't they canonical?

Well, they actually aren't part of the continuity, but they should be included in the article. I'll try to do something about it sometime in the future. --Fue encontrado 11:09, 13 Dic 2005 (UTC)

I just started the Saint Seiya (films) article, but I can't finish it right now, so if anyone can contribute, I apreciate (hope you understand my english, it's not my native language...) --Pinguin 13:26, 5 Feb 2006

I just added the names of the films. Dave 15:47, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Possible title move

Shouldn't this be at "Knights of the Zodiac" or "Saint Seiya: Knights of the Zodiac"? --WhisperToMe 00:37, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Not necessarily. The original name of the series is indeed "Saint Seiya". I know that's not the way it is in the US, and I know we're discussing this for the American version of Misplaced Pages, but the article already has a redirect for "Knights of the Zodiac". I think it's all good. – Mackeriv 04:32, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It is the original name, but which names is it known under in the English-speaking world? Check to see what the manga/anime is known as in the UK. --WhisperToMe 05:56, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In the English-Speaking world, it is known as "Saint Seiya." It is currently being released by ADV Films under that title. However, I understand it is being aired on Cartoon Network as "Knights of the Zodiac." I don't have cable and cannot confirm. The KotZ version is an edited and dub-only version. Therefore, since the full version of the series is being issued as "Saint Seiya," this entry should remain where it is. --User:Snarfies, 7/14/04

You are correct that Cartoon Network uses "Knights of the Zodiac". Perhaps "Saint Seiya: Knights of the Zodiac" would be a good comprimise? (Oh, and just because it is edited and dubbed doesn't mean it doesn't count - Just weigh THAT against the ADV version.

But as it happens, the ORIGINAL title of the show is also "Saint Seiya." So both the original and one North American release (and to me, the fact that it is uncut DOES count, and you'll never convince me otherwise) bear that title. Another point for keeping it here. --User:Snarfies, 7/24/04

ADV uses "Saint Seiya", Viz uses "Saint Seiya:Knights of the Zodiac" and Cartoon Network uses "Knights of the Zodiac". Hmm, which title should we use? --WhisperToMe 23:43, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm not saying the uncut doesn't count. I'm saying that the DUB COUNTS too. --WhisperToMe 22:51, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Meh, I'll let this stay where this is, if only for the ADV version. --WhisperToMe 22:56, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Actually, no, the "Knights of the Zodiac" Cartoon Network version should not really count because it is censored (not a so important reason) and the scenario has been altered so it can be a show of about 40 episodes (I dont know precisely) and they changed stuff, names, and a big lot of things. By the way, ADV also has a dub version which is uncut on the DVDs. Still "Kinghts of the Zodiac" is the french, italian and spanish name for the show, so it is not easy to know what's best, maybe Viz did the good choice by using both. --KiaN 13:16, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Transliteration

When romanizing the names of the characters, what l/r criterium are we using? Sometimes we use an l, but then again "Daidaros" uses r. Is this because it's the way the translation does it? Is it because the translator of the name didn't realize the Japanese name was a kanafied form of Daidalos? I'm just curious... --Shinobu 00:12, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well for names coming from european, I think we should use the original transcription, as it is generally used. (for example it would not be nice to have Hadesu instead of Hades). I guess the transator just didn't realize for Daidalors, because he did it that way for the other names --KiaN 13:43, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Roger that. I'll change it and check the other names as well. Bye, Shinobu 14:04, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Changed "Aioros" to "Aiolos" because I think it was meant to sound Greek. On the same note I think (but I'm not sure) "Aioria" should be written "Aiolia". --Shinobu 07:27, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, I really don't know what would be the correct way of romanizing here, since it's hard to even know what kind of names we're dealing with. I do think, though, that changing "Aioros" to "Aiolos" and leaving "Aioria" like that sounds pretty weird. --Kaonashi 15:55, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

@weird: Yeah, you're probably right.

@what kind of names: a lot of the names in the series come from Greek mythology. Aiolos is the god of the wind.

@aioria: I think a change to Aiolia is in order. It's actually the name of his island in mythology. --Shinobu 10:45, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone know Dohko's Mandarin-prononciation name? rather than the Japanese-transliterated Dohko?

Answer to above: Dohko is spelled Tonghu in Mandarin, but it seems Dohko is widely accepted even in China.

Nitpick

"...although Japanese animation had slowly been shown in both nations in the previous decade, with shows like Robotech and Mazinger Z."

I am going to be a bit pedantic about this, but Robotech is not exacly japanese animation. It is by Carl Maceck and Harmony Gold if I am not mistaken. There are far better examples of popular japanese animation broadcasted on Latin America TV stations, like Minki Momo, Candy Candy, Heidi the girl from the Alps, Remi (the boy without parents) and a lot of others.

I took a fast look at the Robotech article (since I don't know much about that one) and it seems like this was some kind of "Power Rangers"-like project, meaning they grabbed a few Japanese productions, mixed it all and "adapted it to American audiences". Is it that? In that case, yeah, maybe someone should change that title for something else. I'm from Brazil, and since there's already a good share of Brazil info right there, I think someone else should make that change. I don't know about the situation in the other countries. --Kaonashi 03:48, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

If I am correct, it was me who wrote that line. I put it in because Robotech is, firstly, one of the shows that gave people in latin america a sense of how big japanese animation actually was. Second, because while it is an altered version of the originals, it still retains much of the same spirit, and many of us would never have heard of stuff like Macross if it was not for Robotech. The "is robotech anime" debate is rather pointless in this instance as it has been quite obvious to me, having moved in anime fan circles in latin america for a very long while, that it had a huge impact on those who would later go on to become anime fans. Maybe this is not strictly NPOV, but on the other hand it is a claim I have seen made by countless anime magazines in latin america. --Shokanshi 11:18, 29 June 2005

Saints or Knights?

I'm wondering about which of those terms should be used in the article. A user just changed every instance of "knight" for "saint". Since I've never had the chance to see the path things took in the English version, I'm not sure what would be more suitable for an English-speaking audience on Misplaced Pages. I do know that, once Saint Seiya hit the west, pretty much every country adopted the "knight" term, in all the languages from this part of the globe. But I don't know what happened in the English translation. What do you think? --Kaonashi 04:33, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, in the American release of Saint Seiya on DVD (not the censored Knights of the Zodiac), the word "saint" is used. Since this is also the way in the original anime, I think this is ok.

American? You must say the U.S release on DVD, which was made due to the pathetic and terribly edited release of cartoon network, totally ruining one of the best animes (as usually they do) . In the other countries such as Mexico or Colombia it is known as Caballeros del Zodiaco = Knights of the Zodiac, and Saint Seiya in Argentina or Cavaleiros del Zodiaco in Brazil. In every country it was a huge success, of course there was no editing there.

Etymology

If we on the talk page are interested on the etymology of the names, chances are the reader will be too. I'm stopping adding names now because it appears to be 2 a.m. now, but I'll continue where I left of. This kind of information might be interesting for fans and the like. --Shinobu 00:12, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Major Animation Characters"

I think the characters on that new section aren't all "major characters". Most of those Marines, for example, are pretty much non-notable. If that name is to be kept, I believe it'd be a good idea to filter those and only maintain the ones that are really important to be shown there. For instance, Gold Saints are generally considered to be far more notable than Marines (and even inside that group, some are more imporatant to the story than others). Also, there isn't even a single Bronze one there. The images also lack information as to who is who. No captions (not even pop-up ones) were added. Ah, the images also lack any copyright information. Something (even if it's just something, yes) should be added on their pages as soon as possible, or they might be removed by other users. I also think that section should be moved a little below in the article. It's not looking good where it is.--Kaonashi 7 July 2005 01:43 (UTC)

No reference to the Steel Knights

The current version of the article does not mention the three Steel Knights of the first season (a secret project of Kido Saori's adoptive father IIRC). I would include the info, but I do not really know much about them. --Luis Dantas

The Steel knights (or steel saints)appeared before the Sanctuary saga (or 12 houses battle), they were 3 young boys, Shio, Cho and Jamichi(I have to check this last). They weared mechanical armors, specially designed and constructed by Kido Corporation due to Mitsumasa Kido orders before his death. They armors had animal forms like the other armors , a red bird (Shio), a blue swordfish (Cho) and a fox-like (the other boy), looks like their powers were never completely shown, (Shio uses a wrist mechanism to absorb and redirect energy-based attacks, Cho does the same against psychic-based powers using his helmet, and Dankichi(?) never does a damn thing! just runnig around and throwing jump kicks. They fought against the silver saints along with Seiya and the others. For unknown reasons they dissapeared completely at the start of the 12 houses battle, never returning again. I think they were not very popular.

--200.95.132.87 17:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Lopetego

</br>-2005-07-19T22:27:00.000Z">

Technically this is not correct. The wiki-parser recovers nicely, but still it should be replaced by one of the following:

1. An empty line (seperate <p>'s → more inter-line spacing)
2. <br> (I'm going with this for now)
3. <br /> (if you're feeling all xhtmlish)

Note that except for case 1 the wiki-parser will allways generete <br />. --Shinobu 22:27, 19 July 2005 (UTC)"> ">

edit: @Technically this is not correct: points for sarcasm (page history will tell you why). --Shinobu 23:03, 19 July 2005 (UTC)"> ">

Doujinshi

Can anyone confirm the information about Saint Seiya contributing so much for the development of doujinshi? Besides, it contributed to doujinshi in general or mainly outside Japan? Wasn't there a strong doujinshi culture in Japan before Saint Seiya? I certainly agree and it is kinda obvious that Saint Seiya marked the history of japanese animation on South America, Western Europe and East Asia, but I never heard this about doujinshi. (I hope this wasn't confusing to read, it's been some time since I've last written in English) --Kensuke 19:06, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

-Aestheticism.com, one of the oldest yaoi dj fansites, claims that Saint Seiya is "one of the grandaddies of the yaoi genre." I do know that Saint Seiya doujinshi was drawn by CLAMP back when they were a doujinshi group, so I think it's possible.

Episode G

Didn't see any mention of the Saint Seiya: Episode G manga, currently being published in Japan. I'll add some info to it on the summary, but more would be welcome, like info on the characters section. Maybe I can do it, but it will take some time, so if anyone volunteers, it'll be nice. --Kensuke 19:14, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Separate article?

And last, but not least (man, I'd never been so active on wikipedia as today, please warn me if I'm doing anything wrong), can't we better this article format? My main suggestion is doing a separate article to the characters, like Evangelion, as it seems they occupy a lot of this article's space. Then, we could develop more aspects, like the development of the anime and manga, it's strong tie with the action figures produced by Bandai, the confusion wih Toei since the production of the Hades OVA, etc. What do you think? --Kensuke 19:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I think you're completely right. I'll try to see to that in the future. And a little help wouldn't hurt.--Fue encontrado 11:15, 13 Dic 2005 (UTC)

Strongest Gold Saint?

In the article someone insists that Saga is the strongest of the Gold Saints while admitting that Shaka is the only one who has attained the eighth sense. Why is this? In the Hades chapter we clearly see (as confirmed by the section on Shaka) Shaka single-handedly beating three other Gold Saints (Saga himself, plus Camus and Shura), and would have destroyed all three if not for those three's use of the forbidden technique (I forget what it's called). Granted, one may argue that the fact Shaka was fooled by Saga's evil incarnation for so long is a strike against him; still, in terms of raw fighting power, I can't see how anyone can put Saga over Shaka.

I would say (here comes a list) the mightiest are Kanon (he has worn both a marine and a gold saint's armour with appropriate control of both), Shaka (who normally holds the same amount of power than Kanon) and Dohko (while in his old form) however the later, when back to his younger self, shall equal Shaka's best (Shaka's best is better than Kanon's best, now, I'm giving the name "best" to the period with at the cost of a high demand on cosmo, that is, at the cost of extra effort, they rise their cosmo to the besto f their possibilities but need to win fast before consuming it all) without showing his own best (althought Shaka's best is better employed and cost less than Doko's)... Camus, althought he is as powerful as Saga (weaker than Kanon in my regards, yet mighty still), can, at his best, equal the best of Kanon... Leo's best would be the average of the best of both Kanon and Saga while his normal is worse than Saga's and Kanon's normal... Althought he has more physical endurance and speed (the twins outdo him through mental prowess)... Scorpion, Aries, Sagitarius and Capricorn would stand as the average saints (weaker than Saga by as much as Saga is weaker than Kanon, at their best as strong as Saga's best) while Taurus and Aphrodite are the most weak (althought Aphrodite employs his few strengths with wit to gain an advantage in contrast with Andromeda whose wit makes him loose the benefits of his hiddened power), Taurus' best can, however, outdo the best of Scorpion, Aries, Sagitarius or Capricorn, but it's harder for him to reach it, and it lasts but a single attack... Death Mask would be somewhere between Aries and Aphrodite in power, employing his might in cruel and intelligent ways, much like a horror-film's serial killer... Of course, this is opinion... Based on how the different saints interacted with the knights... Now, I would say that when brought back to life by Hades they were brought weaker... Furthermore... From what I know about the story... Their true intentions were not against Athena so it might all just been faked... Now, it's essential to state the difference in might between Saga and Kanon... I would say it's not much, maybe twice the difference of might between the best of Poseidon's Marinas' bests and the Taurus' normal (if mathematically coherent)... There is a serious problem with no account of cosmoenergy in the numbered ki system of dragonball...

It is widely known that the strongest Gold Saint is no other than Shion Aries only DoKo in his young form can aproach to shion's level, But from the manga it seems that only the saint of pegasus has reached a level just as high of that of a god. Seiya is the reincarnation of the old pegasus saint who managed to beat Hades in the past that's why Hades seals seiya's cosmo and it is opened once again in tenkai hen.

That is not true. Where did you hear that Seiya is the reincarnation of someone else? Pegasus is only his protecting constellation, and nothing else. I've come in contact with everything story-wise released to this moment (except the later Episode G chapters and the Gigantomacchia novels) and I've never heard of such a thing. Not even as speculation. All Hades did in that story arc was to attack Seiya with his sword, putting a curse on him that prevents him from burning his cosmos. That is all. --Kaonashi 01:29, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

look, Mackeriv|Kaonashi, you've been in contact with just the anime, in the Hades manga it is very clear when Hades say that seiya is the reincarnation of an ancient pegasus saint.... the manga is in a shorter form at www.caballerosdelzodiaco.net it is in spanish, by the way seiya dies in the manga.

Eh? When did I say I only came in contact with the manga? I said I came in contact with everything. I've read all the manga. All its 48 volumes. No, the manga doesn't say he is the reincarnation of anything. You must be referring to the fact that Hades thought Seiya's face looked like the face of a previous Pegasus saint, the only man that ever hurt him. That is all that happens. And no, Seiya does not die. He passes out and the temple collapses. You can't know what happens after. Some thought he died. Other thought all 5 and Saori died. It was all speculation, until the Tenkai-hen movie came out and showed everyone that Seiya healed from that incident (as well as from the curse, later on that same movie). --Kaonashi 04:00, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's not "all that happens". After Hades noticed that Seiya's face is almost identical to that of the previous Pegasus saint, he accused Seiya of daring to come back only to hurt him more, to which Seiya replies he has no idea what Hades is talking about. Hades them tells Seiya he'll destroy him so completely his soul won't ever reincarnate again.

Perhaps your translated version is different than mine, but that's what I've read.

How is that proof that Seiya is the reincarnation of a saint from the past? The problem with the Saint Seiya fans that hit Misplaced Pages is that they like to speculate way too much. Stick with the facts. If Kurumada ever decides to speak of this subject again (in a work or otherwise), then you'll have your confirmation. Only then. --Kaonashi 00:56, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but if no one less than the freakin' greek god of the afterlife accuses someone of being a reicarnation, that's more than enough proof by any standards. If someone has enough authority to be knowledgeable about what happens after you die, it's him. Plus, there's a big difference between "look like" and "almost identical".

I don't know about what your guys think, but here is my rank list:

S rank--the strongest: Dohkn, yes he is the wise one and with hidden youth, Shaka, he is just unquestionablely powerful. If you want to mention shion, that's fine with me too.

Between S rank and A rank---Saga and his twin, yes they are both very powerful. I would say maybe Saga is a bit stronger, just looking at his endurance through Hades chapter. I guess if I put Mu on, people would argue that he isn't that strong, but in the comic and cartoon, he is almost as strong as Saga, and he was nominated to be the Pope after Saga in the list(if you know what I mean). And during the Athena Exclamation part, He is in the center as oppose to where Saga is. And he KO 2 gold saint at the same time(even tough they were weak). The sad part he was so weak once he walk into the castle. Hey! you can't blame him for that. Aiolos, even he isn't much mention in the comic and cartoon and he got killed by Shura when he was severly wounded, tired, and no gold cloth protection. seems weak, no way! He was the first in the line for pope. And his Gold Cloth? Seiya wear it so many times and defeat so many of them, Aiolia, Prosiedon(wow!!!!), some other gods in the ovas...etc

A rank--Camus, a very powerful saint, master of Hyoga(or the master of Hyoga's master in the cartoon), the technique "Aurora Execution" seems very strong and SUPER COLD(-273'C), Man, just by thinking about it, I would have a chill. but I still put him in A rank. Sorry to the Camus fans. Aiolia, technique "Lighting plasma" is very powerful, but he is not as strong as Mu, Mu hold him back with single hand in the pre-Athena exclamation part.

B rank--Shura and milo, I got to say Excalibur is a pretty strong technique, since it can almost cut anything, and it only failed once in battle(when Shiryu battling 3 guy in the hades chapter). Milo, Scarlet needle, very painful and takes a long time to finish them(You have 2 shot 13 of them, it takes so long!!!)

C rank--Aldebaran, very big guy, and kind hearted. Kind of dumb, maybe that's why he died so easily

D rank--Death Mask and Aphrodite, DO I REALLY HAVE TO MENTION THEM? By Ray

I believe we should skip the strongest gold saint part, it's clearly subjective and unless Kurumada says in an interview where we can provide a source saying "Soandso is the strongest saint" then we should keep the NPOV of Misplaced Pages and this article.DamianFinol 06:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Birth facts

1. Wasn´t Shiryu born in China, not Japan?
2. If Hyoga was born in 1972, he was not born in Russia, but in the Soviet Union. --Doidimais Brasil 23:46, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

1. Shiryu's nationality is Japanese but his training place "the five ancient peaks" are in China.
2. At the time when Russia was the Soviet Union or the U.S.S.R most people called it Russia. --Dick Grayson

Shiryu is Japanese. His training place was the five peaks of Rozan, in China. Hyoga was born and trained in Eastern Siberia. That is all the info that is ever given by Kurumada. Throwing in terms like "Russia" and "Soviet Union" on this qualifies as pure speculation and should be avoided.

There are several other mistakes and problems people added to this article lately. I should go and fix them already, as soon as I can get my mind on it. --Kaonashi 04:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

You are right, Kaonashi, Hyoga was born in Siberia but all the birthdates that I added for the characters I got from the Jump Comics Selection of the Saint Seiya Encyclopedia, I added the years because im going by the characters ages and when the anime was first released back in 1986. the anime looked like it took place in the 1980's such as how the characters dressed and the heavy metal guitars in the series soundtracks. -- Dick Grayson

Uhm, no, it's not that simple. They look that way because the series was created at that time. I know that calculating their years of birth was a good effort from you, but have you actually seen any source stating that info? I don't think there's any. Saint Seiya is situated in a different universe from ours. On these kind of anime series, you seldom see authors giving year of birth to their characters. What you usually see is age, blood type, weight, stuff like that, but not year of birth. It's a different thing. For example, Seiya was born on December 1st, but nobody know of which year. Guessing the year of birth of the characters of this series is speculation, once again. We should stick with the information given on official sources here. --Kaonashi 05:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Kaonashi i found proof that the first saint seiya series took place in the 80's in the episode " Fly, Pegasus, Fly! there is a close up of seiya sitting on his bed and next to him there is a calendar of a sail boat on the wall next to seiya that has the year 1987 on top of it. if you dont believe me watch that episode and see it for yourself. --Dick Grayson

I totally disagree with these Birth dates. Despite of the fact there are a date in a calendar in the anime, Kurumada hasn´t give any infomation abou years in the character's profiles on any source (for example, Saint Seiya Taizen). Your theory is good, but i think we have to base our information on the manga version, instead of using a possible mistake ocurred in the anime. --Robvaler 17:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC). P.S.: By the way, other pages with better information about Saint Seiya haven't put years either.

Style consistency in character info.

Currently some entries look like this:

• Babel (Saint of Centaurus)Birthdate: Feb. 20, 1969

Birthplace: Iran
*:Named after the ancient city Babel, known for its the biblical story the Tower of Babel.

Wouldn't it be better to make them look like this?

• Babel (Saint of Centaurus)

  Birthdate: Feb. 20, 1969

  Birthplace: Iran

  Named after the ancient city Babel, known for the biblical story the Tower of Babel.

Or perhaps:

• Babel (Saint of Centaurus)

Birthdate: Feb. 20, 1969

Birthplace: Iran

Named after the ancient city Babel, known for the biblical story the Tower of Babel.

What do you think? Shinobu 06:49, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, the only difference bertween the last two is just spacing? Either of them look good to me, I'm just not sure of what would be better. I guess the last one. Anyways, the year will have to go, in a way or another. --Kaonashi 16:00, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

@The year will have to go: be bold.

There are still a number of inconsistencies to be solved. Compare:

• Seiya (Saint of Pegasus)

Age: 13
Birthdate: Dec.1, 1972 Birthplace: Japan
Techniques: Pegasus Ryu Sei Ken (Pegasus Meteor Fist), Pegasus Suisei Ken (Pegasus Comet Fist), Pegasus Rolling Crush

Seiya is the main character of the series. ... In return, Athena always has an empathic feeling towards Seiya.

• Babel (Saint of Centaurus)

Birthdate: Feb. 20, 1969

Birthplace: Iran

Named after the ancient city Babel, known for its the biblical story the Tower of Babel.

• Shion (Late Saint of Aries and Pope of Sanctuary, master to Mū)Uses more powerful version of Mu's attacks including 'Star Dust Revolution', 'Crystal Wall', 'Starlight Extinction', and 'Crystal Net'
• Mū (Saint of Aries)Birthdate: Mar. 27, 1966

Birthplace: Tibet
Mū is very soft spoken and possess a scholarly like persona. ... His attacks, see Shion. Maybe we could unify this to:

• <Name> (Saint of ...)

Birthdate: <date>

Birthplace: <Country/Region>

Main text goes here.

Named after ... (if applicable)

Should we indent the main text? Should we give those characters with more than two or three sentences text there own headings? In what other respects should the layout of large and small items be different? Your opinions please. Shinobu 22:57, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

My contribution...

Just a few points on all those years of reading both the manga and anime of Saint Seiya (since it started, literally!)~

Steel saints - only shown in the anime, is a secret project undertaken by the Kido foundation to help the bronze saints. The armours are made by high-level technology and have the ability to transform between some sort of transport and an armour (eg Fox --> car, Bird --> plane, Dolphine --> glider on water). They played a major role in saving Athena and the bronze saints against Babel, and becomes the source of information for the Kido foundation.

Saint Seiya G is a new series about the lives of the Golden Saints during the 13yrs between Saga gaining throne to the pope and the appearance of Seiya and co. Aiolia seems to be the main character, although each episode seems to feature one of the other Gold Saints in their abilities to fight. It explains the reasons for Death Mask knowing Saga to be the fake pope, and the reason why Shura also stood on Saga's side even though he was loyal to Athena. The story is based on the battle between Gold Saints and the Gods of Gigan. In this manga, it also has Saga stating that Shaka is the only Gold Saint who has the ability to freely control the most fearful power (New Star - the cosmo needed to produce a special move like Galaxian Explosion) - hence answering the question of who the strongest Gold Saint is.

In the article, someone also put that Shaka was the reincarnation of Buddha and was therefore named as 'the man closest to God'. That is actually incorrect. Shaka is perceived to be the reincarnation of Buddha because of his power and abilities. And he is said to be closest to God was because of 1, his power, and 2, most importantly, the fact that he was the only man who has gained the 8th sense and will never die. I have changed these on the original article - I hope the author wouldn't mind! (please change it back if you do mind~~) --DrTintin

Recent edits

I just made some major changes to the article. Please look them over. Somethings I would like feedback/checking on:

• Spacing. The long lists I put a space between each character, but I'm not sure whether that's any good.
• The lists. It seems we have a complete list of characters. Do we really need them all?
• My comments. In places I inserted inline comments, seeking clarification or confirmation. I also took out a number of comments, either fixing or confirming the subject matter.
• The notes. There was a curious system of ***s going on. This is not in-house style, so most of the notes I took out. Some I left, and another group I made into a section. Doublecheck this especially, whether they need to be put back in, or more removed, or put in individual articles or what.

--Maru (talk) Contribs 06:58, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Too long

This article is getting way too long. Anyone care for a split? Shinobu 20:51, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I made a table of the Bronze Knights (it did make the section look cleaner), but this article definitely needs to be splitted. ElTchanggo 04:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I also agree. I propose making the character section much shorter, following that table you did, and putting its complete version on a new article. What do you think? Dave 15:49, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I suggest also a separated article for every Chapter(Sanctuary, Asgard, Poseidon, Hades, Next Dimension, Lost Canvas, Movies) Sirtao 18:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone add more information about the knights?

I think the characters are more interesting than the storyline. Shinbu 19:18, 28 December 2005

Philippine airing

Anyone knows when Saint Seiya was aired in the Philippines? I was fortunate to watch it Hong Kong, I think in 1987 or 88. Can't remember.

Separate Articles

Kudos to whoever put up seperate articles- but the other 3 bronzies, the goldies, some silvers, Saori, Julian, and Kiki need an article too.

Does any one thinks the ova is able to air on Adult swim?

Man, since they cut many of the shit because of "Bloody and Violent", they can surely air it out on Adult swim since Samurai Champloo was more "Bloody and Violent" The new ova should suit the taste of the Adult Swim Audience. Every Eposide is about 18 minutes which gives enough time for commerical for half hour of show. the whole OVA of Sancturary consist of 14 eposide which is short and shouldn't be cancell.

Canon or non-canon

If this revert war goes on I will ask for administration intervention, which could culminate with the transgressors receiving edit bans for a while. This matter could be settled on the talk page first with a consensus built by voting, which is a guideline proposed by wikipedia itself for controversial matters. So please vote and sign as bellow: Loudenvier 14:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Question: Is Episode G Manga canon or non-canon?

Please vote by copying the respective code bellow depending on your interpretation (copy from the * to the last ~):

* '''canon''' ~~~~

* '''non-canon''' ~~~~~

Comments

You can substantiate your voting here with comments. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Episode G states that the four "unknown" cloths are bronze, but n fact in Gigantomachia, one of the four appears and thus the cloth is neither bronze, gold or silver. Therefore i vote Episode G to be non-canon. Refuteku

Hi, I asked to sign using four "~"( ~~~~ ). You cuted the nowiki tags and the !. Sorry for confusing it all Loudenvier 19:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Since if the Gigantomachia itself is canon or not is unknown, it's not the best source to use for settle Episode G being canon or not. And I suggest to keep discussions about Episode G in the Saint_Seiya_Episode_G article's Talk section. Sirtao 18:43, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Saint Seiya Video Games

I noticed that there is no mention of the Saint Seiya video games in the article. Is there a particular reason for this? I think at least the PS2 game should be mentioned as it got a release throughout Europe (including England where the series has never been shown). There is also a forthcoming game release that could be mentioned.

Saga problem: Controdiction and Conflicts with other member

Is it me or does it seem like there's a controdiction in the Gemini Saga page in the "Saga: Dual Nature or Evil Entity?" section.

In the begining of article it compares the spirit that possessed Sage to the one that possessed Shun to be the same(Hades)...and then toward the bottom it says

"...He wanted to take over Sanctuary and gain control of Athena's power to defend the world from the incoming threats of Poseidon and Hades, as he believed Athena was not strong enough for the tasks...."

Now "IF" the spirit is the same, why in the bottom of the article would Saga be defending against Hades, himself. Could someone look into that please (I don't want to start an re-editing war since this one other member feels "Strongly" about it).

Also I've been having a "difference in opinion" with the same member regarding the spirit that possessed Saga. This member argued that it IS Hades' spirit. However I don't believe that is the case based on these 3 area that has shown in the series.

1. The "Yours Ever" necklace. Pandora gave to Shun as baby saying this will make link with Hades no matter where Shun hides. As Shun is "chosen" to be Hades' body here on earth. There's a reason Hades choose Shun (gentle spirit and/or what author would say etc.) Since they make it a point to have such important necklace for Shun, why in the world would Hades go around and posess Saga. "Oh, since Shun is not adult yet, let me just make a pit stop at Saga's first". That controdict the point of having such necklace and also at the time, I might add that Hades' spirit isn't awaken yet according to the conversation that Hypnos and Thanatos had with Pandora (in manga).

2. If Saga's evil spirit is the same as the one that possessed Shun which everyone know is Hades' spirit. As a GOD who commands 108 hell warriors himself, why in the world would he conceal his truth identity during the time in sanctuary? Hades! GOD! Great power!! No need to hide!!!

3. Hair color of possession is similar (in manga, black, they all look black, there's only so many shades of black in manga) but possession reaction is different. Saga's "good" self still shows up half of the time, shows that he still have a hold on himself and the spirit that posessed him did not take over completely and he can even make conversation to the evil part (I don't think you can casually talk to a god like Hades). But with Shun, it's a complete take over. Shun barely, just barely resurfaced again when Ikki showed up. If anyone's possessed by a god like spirit, I would say no one would be able to gain, if any bit of control back at all like Shun. So here anyone can see that it's not the same spirit.

I believe that having the part which just speculation of the spirit is the same in the begining of that article is mis-leading but the other member believe otherwise saying it is true.

Now, I've been going "back and forth" with this other member, I would like someone, hopefully a high board member or something to step in to resolve this since much unpleasent conversations have been exchanged (articles re-edited, things were said, feeling were hurt).

Could someone, authority/non-bias personal help me resolve this? Thank you Yajaec 16:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Already replied to all this in a perfectly unbiased way. It has been noted by Ikki that the transformation was similar, you can't do anything about it. Al

This is not the right article to discuss it.

1 : no there's no contradiction, Hades is free to act as he want without Shun

2 : If he wants to destroy the sanctuary from within, he'd better conceal his identity

3 : Shun reacted exactly like Saga by taking control of his body again.

First, understand that Misplaced Pages is Misplaced Pages. It's a 💕 that anyone can edit, so any complains that your edits were reverted will never be acceptable. It's the rule.

You want to add unsourced speculation and that's why you were reverted. Folken de Fanel 08:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

I'm asking for a high authority's help, since you are the involved party with such disagreement I would like a different unbias authority to work as a medium to resolve this. I don't see solid evidence in your reasons, I suggest that since too much have been said between you and I, you not step in as the medium. Unless you are the "ONLY" caretaker to the Saint Seiya project, then I shall seek a different authority as medium to resolve the issues.

To prevent any more resentment between members, I suggest you step back while I seek such medium.Yajaec 17:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

We're on Misplaced Pages, I can contribute even if you don't like it.

I am unbiased.

I have solid evidence. That you're too biased to see them is not recievable. Folken de Fanel 21:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

":We're on Misplaced Pages, I can contribute even if you don't like it."
I never expressed that I don't like you contributing, I'm only disagreeing on this perticler article.

Again, I would only continue to discuss this through a middle ground person, I'm will follow through propert Wiki channel till this is resolved. You are the involved party, therefore you are not unbiase nor qualify to be in the medium position. I'm kindly asking you to step back till a medium person is in place to resolve this.Yajaec 22:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not "involved", you're the only problem. I am unbiased. I am in a medium position. You won't ask me to "step back" (I remember you that I can contribute whenever and wherever I want on Misplaced Pages, that's the basic principle here), and it has already been resolved : you're wrong. I can't see any proof from you. I can't see any reason. You're just frustrated that your own little theory was reverted. The manga IS the manga. It exists. Period. There's no point in denying it existence. Everything I said was taken directly from the manga. Show me a SINGLE proof of what you're saying.

Folken de Fanel 23:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

By asking you to step back as in, not involve in the continueation of this debate, it is not asking you to stop contributing, please don't assume that's what I meant. Too much has already been said, I already explained my position and I WILL seek a medium because it is your input and conclusion that I don't agreed with. I have the right to summon such medium and I WILL go all the way, offical Wiki authorities and all, till this is resolved. Yajaec 16:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You can seek whatever you want, but I will involve in any discussion you'll create, because I won't let you spread your incorrect and biased ideas about my edits.

To have a mediation, you need two parties. If you seek to eliminate the other party by denying it the right to involve in the discussion, you're out of your rights.

We have already discussed this in details. I've already presented all the undisputable proof I had, which are in the manga, I already explained the origin of your theories, I've explained why it was reverted...I have also asked you what were your proof, you had none.

The matter was already settled. That you request for a "mediation" while trying to push me out of the said mediation won't get you any further...Folken de Fanel 11:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Request for Medium with extensive Saint Seiya knowledge and reliable credential on Misplaced Pages

In hope of resolving issues between myself and one other member on the disagreement of Gemini Saga's article, I am requesting a mediator to step in and help us peacefully resolve this difference in view.

Disagreement already solved when proof has been shown and when Yajaec was unable to answer it.Folken de Fanel

According to Misplaced Pages's rule, members in conflicts regarding the article should first seek unoffical 3rd party mediator to resolve issues rather than creating editing war (3RR rule). If no mediator can be found I will take the next step and make an offical request to the administors but I would like to resolve this first as smoothly as possible.

I believe everyone have great passion for the Saint Seiya page and want to make it as best as possible, however different members in different regins maybe see views differently so I'm asking for a mediator with extensive Saint Seiya knowledge and reliable credential here on Misplaced Pages to help us resolve this peacefully and smoothly.

I assure you that I have reliable credential and extensive knowledge about Saint Seiya (because that's what the matter is about). Thus you can't ignore what I said to you earlier. I've given proof from the manga and from databooks. The matter is thus settled. Folken de Fanel

Please only respond to this post if you have the credential (wiki history in Saint Seiya knowledge and mediation help with other members in conflicts is a pluse) or you have information as to where to seek such mediator.

It is useless to ask for "wiki history in Saint Seiya knowledge" if you refuse to let me talk : I remind you that I am one of the only regular Saint Seiya contributor currently in activity here, and that I've already provided enough proof of Saint Seiya knowledge to which you were unable to answer.Folken de Fanel 11:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much and apology to other members who have endured and witness the unpleasant conflicts from the posting. Yajaec 17:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

I see, you said that you are the only regular Saint Seiya contributor active here but that does not make your point of view always right (and again, this is not an accusation, just a statment).

I does because I know what I'm talking about, contrary to you. Remember the manga and the Jump Gold ?

I have great knowledge about Saint Seiya, thus I'm always right because I KNOW what I'm talking about. Folken de Fanel

The proof that you told me was based only on your own speculation, you draw conclusion from what little was revealed and there are no where in the manga that Hades admit that he was responsible for Saga's possession nor any one clearly said that Hades was resposible too.

1) No but as I said, the exact same transformation occured : Saga, when becoming bad, had his hair turning from blond to jet-black. The same thing happened to Shun when he was possessed by Hades, his hair turned jet-black. And it is revealed that it was because Hades' own hair was jet-black.

It's a visual clue, Kurumada didn't get his idea of the jet-black hair out of nowhere. Besides, when he specifically makes a character notice the similarity, it has become something perfectly relevant to the question Saga's case, and hiding it would be more than "speculations".

2) What you tried to do, was deleting evidences (mostly by hiding the color similarities in the manga and replacing them with statements about the anime colors which of course aren't similars to the manga's) in order to favor your own theory.

3) I "drew conclusions" ? "Nowhere revealed in the manga" ? But, remind me, isn't what you tried to do with Ares also "drawing conclusion from what isn't in the manga" ?

And also, I'm sorry, but Saga's and Shun's transformation similarity IS in the manga, and it's even noted by a character.

But as I explained, you Ares theory does really come out of nowhere. With no support whatsoever.

4) As I've already said, I've never written in the article that "Kurumada said that Saga was possessed by hades". No. I've just pointed out relevant facts from the manga. Folken de Fanel

And my explaination was logical from what author put into the manga for what Ikki said was only comparing the likeliness of how a person would look like if possessed.

No. Here you're really speculating and making assumptions.

Ikki noted a similarity, so he noted a similarity. Period. Folken de Fanel

All I'm saying is that I disagreed with what you put in since it is more of personal opinion from your own conclusion and I did countered that opinion with actual events shown by the author in the manga.

But what are you talking about ?

You can't disagree because all I've done is quoting the manga. You only disagree because you have your own theorry which you tried to impose. Then you have "countered" nothing. You've just made assumptions and interpreted things in your own way, things that don't even exist in the manga.Folken de Fanel

By the way, I wonder where are all your so-called "evidence" in the manga ? Like I said, nowhere.

You've not proved that Saga was possessed by Ares, you haven't proved that Saga's and Shun's transformation aren't similar, you haven't proved that Ikki didn't note the similarities. Folken de Fanel

I'm not refusing to let you talk, all I'm saying is that, and please don't mistaken again, you back away from farther debate with me for I no longer wish to continue this on going arguement.

If you don't wish to "continue" it, then drop the case, and don't talk anymore about "mediation".

If you don't want me to talk to you (or if you don't want to talk to me) don't involve anymore in this matter.

Because like I said, every one can edit Misplaced Pages, that's precisely how Misplaced Pages work. And I am concerned with the articles about saint Seiya, and I have a consequent knowledge about Saint Seiya (I've already proved it) so I will always contribute to make the articles better.

You won't push me out of the "mediation", because I won't let you spread only your own personal views which aren't faithfull to the manga.Folken de Fanel

I see that we both stood firmly on our own position, therefore I'm asking a mediator to help us find a common ground or reveal additional info that may help us resolve this.

There is no need for mediation, because i'm right and the matter has already been settled. You juste have to listen to me and to stop being so stubborn. The only thing to resolve is that you have you to give up your speculations.

Besides, as I know Saint seiya, I know there's isn't anymore info except what was already in the article and what i explained to you.Folken de Fanel

Finding a mediator is not to put you down nor gang upon you. And please don't say it's unless to find a mediator, unless you don't care about other people's contributions and insights.

Other people can't do anymore than I've done. There's the manga, from which there are several evidences, there is the Jump Gold which explained the Arles thing, and that's all. Nobody can do anything more. Except you : you just have to accept that your theories are wrong.Folken de Fanel 11:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I would like to have the mediator to help all party to settle this once for all so there maybe no questions in the future again.Yajaec 15:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I do not see the point in this discussion. If the matter in question is not reably cited elsewhere then it's not supposed to be in wikipedia. If it is only a conjecture about something a character supposedly meant, then it's original research or POV unless it is cited by the author or some external, reliable source. Please, keep it in mind when going further with this discussion. There are many sections of this article that could be improved, and focusing on this small matter is a big waste of time. Loudenvier 16:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, from what I see is that user: Folken de Fanel draw conslusion based on his own POV on Saga's possession which he feels "strongly" about.

No. I didn't drew any conclusion (obviously you don't know what "conclusion" means) : I've merely pointed out established and undisputable FACTS from the manga.

What you have done was altering and hiding these facts in order to favor your conclusions based on your own POV on Saga's possession which you felt "strongly" about.

Do I still need to remind you that :

1) the same hair color change occurs when both Saga and Shun are possessed

2) It has been explained that the change happened because Hades has jet-black hairs

3) Ikki noted the similarities between the 2 transformations

On the over hand, all you did was making assumptions about a supposed possession by Ares, which has N-E-V-E-R been even hinted in the manga, just because the anime script-writers gave another name to Saga during the sanctuary arc, which in fact wasn't even related to Ares. And you tried to hide facts from the manga in order to favor your own POV about the so-called possession by "Ares".Folken de Fanel

The author did not present nor stated clearly, without a doubt that it is the same spirit nor any other reliable source backs up that claim.

Like I said, I've merely pointed out various facts from the manga. I've never drawn any conclusion. On the other hand you have tried to manipulate information in order to mislead the readers and to favor your POV.Folken de Fanel

My fear is that this POV might mislead and mis-inform other readers.

First you don't have any fear, you just want to impose your POV.

Then, I can't see how taking facts from the manga into account would be "misinformation". On the other hand, I can't see how hiding facts and making up your own theories about Ares would not be misinforming. Folken de Fanel

Since user: Folken de Fanel truely believe that the information he provided is absolutly trueful which I feel differently

You don't have to feel differently. This isn't a question of opinion, here. It's fact, it's in the manga.Folken de Fanel

, and if I proceed to remove that POV, user: Folken de Fanel would not agree on it.

Of course, because first you're deleting authentic facts from the manga, and then replacing it by your own POV and imposing it, based only on your own guesses and not on any fact from the manga. It's obvious that I won't let you do this.

And strangely, you're always accusing my edits, but you do not talk so much about your edits. Folken de Fanel

therefore I am requesting such mediator to help with this.

No need, I've already explained everything.Folken de Fanel

I can understand how there are many sections for the article that could be improved and focusing on this what might seem as a "small matter" is a waste of time but big problem usually started with a small one that roll with the snowball effects. I am all for continue in improving other sections of the articles but if user: Folken de Fanel and I could not see eye to eye on even a small matter as this like you suggested, then we might kept stepping on each other's toe while improving other sections of Saint Seiya. Thank you for your input, any helpful suggestion is welcomed. Yajaec 17:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC) I can't see how you can "improve" anything here by adding your POV everywhere. Folken de Fanel 11:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Yajaec's edits

Ok, since yajaec seems reluctant to simply mention what were the changes he actually made to the article, let's analyze them here:

To the right : "my" version. To the left : his version.

• So 1st change : erasing the mention of Hades, imposing the mention of Ares.

Where does this Ares comes ? From nowhere, he isn't even an existing character in the story. Is this mention explained later on in the changes ? No, never. -> First violation of the NPOV rule.

• 2nd change : initial sentence : "the hair of both Saga and Shun turned jet black, like the hair of the true body of Hades".
  New sentence : "the hair of both Saga and Shun changed color, Saga from royal blue to gray and Shun from forest green to dark maroon black"

You can notice the insidious deletion of existing information from the manga, and it's replacement by another personal version in order to hide an information to artificially favoring and increasing the "probability" of his POV. But at the price of a complete alteration and deformation of the original intent of the author. -> 2nd violation of NPOV rule.

But anyway, a big part of the section (of which neither Yajaec no me are responsible) it too much subjective...I'll rewrite the section in order to concentrate on the facts.

Folken de Fanel 12:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

Hold it there, let's not making attacks and using words like "insidious". There's no hidden agenda any where. All I'm saying is that Folken de Fanel mention in his observation of Saga's possessing spirit is the same as Hades' spirit from manga is his POV. Same as my own POV in regarding the Ares input. If he can put in his POV on Saga's possession from drawing conclusion based on the black hair (which there's only so many shade of black in manga) then so can I put in my POV, just making my point here on POV input.

No, again, I've merely stated facts from the manga but have not imposed a "POV". It was just observation. On the other hand, from where does your POV come ? From nowhere...

However, there's a chance that the way Folken de Fanel worded the input was only compareing and not stating an absolute fact, then that can be imporved by better using of wording.

The whole article didn't clearly separate the storyline of manga from the animation. I added in the Saga's blue hair to grey and Shun's green to reddish black hair input only as an additional point to show that the possessing spirit is not the same. If I failed to mention that this is the difference from manga then I apologize.

First you didn't "add" it, you replaced the mention about the manga colors with the mention of the anime colors. Which is hiding information.

Second, you don't prove anything with it, because the anime colors have nothing to do with the original story of the manga. The mangaka never takes part in the conception of the anime, the colors are only decided by the anime staff, which never consult the author. In the anime, for example, Saori's hair is purple, yet in the few colored pages of the manga, Kurumada made her hair light brown. Shion has green hair in the anime, whereas in the manga coloration he is blond.

And in the manga Ikki himself notes that Shun's hair has become black...

Even the coloration of Hades' hair is not the same. Folken de Fanel

As to your explaination for the compareson in the possession, I already answered many time with facts from the series and yet you kept on saying that I provided none.

I've asked you facts, that is, not biaised and disputable interpretations, but facts.Folken de Fanel

Quote:

Do I still need to remind you that : 1) the same hair color change occurs when both Saga and Shun are possessed 2) It has been explained that the change happened because Hades has jet-black hairs 3) Ikki noted the similarities between the 2 transformations

my replys: 1) Yes, same color of black in manga. Only to show the diffences in personality after possession, not necesarry means same spirit, the fact of what Ikki said was only in comparson as when a person (like Saga) is "possessed". Ikki never said that it is the same spirit as the one possessed Saga. Untill this is clearly stated in manga or any where else AND if author said it IS the same spirit, it's only a POV in your observation.

This is only speculation and interpretation. I see no fact here. Folken de Fanel

2) Yes, Hades' has jet-black hair but only to Shun, there's no where any where in manga saying that Saga's hair turn's black is also because Hades' has jet black hair.

This is only speculation and interpretation. I see no fact here. Folken de Fanel

3) Ikki noted the "similarities" between the 2 transformations. What is "similar" is not the "SAME". And not where in manga that support, without a doubt that the spirit is the SAME. Only similar in the symtom of being possessed.

This is only speculation and interpretation. I see no fact here. Where is it said that Ikki only notes the "similarity" ? Besides, even if he notes the similarity, that means the same thing happened. Folken de Fanel

And I urge you, please don't assume that I want to "impose" or "hide the fact" I am also a Saint Seiya follower and I am trying to talk peacefully with you. I have not ALWAYS accusing your edition, I've never came accross your edition before the Saga article, please don't use words like that, if you have problem with my changes, you are welcome to openly talk to me about it without using harsh words or assuming words and if I said something that offended you, I apologize here.

And don't say, and I quote "I can't see how you can "improve" anything here by adding your POV everywhere." I maded a couple contribution here in the Saint Seiya section already, Saga page is one of them and it's the first encounter I have with you, so how can you say that I'm adding POV everywhere. I only add in the Ares part to make a point that if the POV of Saga's spirit is Hades' spirit can be put in, so can the observation of Ares base on the similarity of the name Arles. Maybe that's not the right way to go about it but I made no further arguement on Ares theory. However, I already provided solid facts regarding to the compareson in the Hades' spirit possessions which I see your observation as a POV.

Solid fact is solid fact, sorry. You can try to interprete in your own way whatever you want, it won't be solid fact 'till it's a manga dialogue.Folken de Fanel

So here is the break down of what's in debate now. 1) I see your input regarding the spirit of both Saga and Shun is the same as your POV. 2) You don't agree that my counter statement regarding that the spirit have the similar possession symtom but not the same spirit which I have already provided facts from the manga(which I will provid again for a mediator's examination).

Show me again where it was stated in the manga that the spirits aren't the same ?Folken de Fanel 10:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

So this is the break down, and why mediation is needed since we can't come to a common ground.

However we can both agreed on 2 facts I believe. Saga was possessed by "a spirit". Shun was possessed by "Hades' spirit".

I believe there's a way to resolve this in civilize way without creating resentment toward other members and for the greater good of Saint Seiya page on Misplaced Pages.Yajaec 16:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

Goodness, I guess you just not seeing it, here is another solid piece of evidence that is the ultimate proof to show the spirit that possessed Saga is not Hades' spirit.

The SEAL OF ATHENA.

Dokho spend over 200+ years watching the "tower" that Athena sealed Hades' 108 armies in. At the same time Saga his evil self been planning to take over the Sanctury in the duration of most recent 13 years. During the Hades chapter, Pandora revealed to Ikki that Hypnos and Thanatos told her that Hades will be born as her brother in spirit but will not come to the world till the Seal of Athena on the tower is broken and told her to protect Hades' spirit until that day comes. Manga stated, Hades' spirit has been under Pandora's protection during all that time till the Seal on the tower is broken. Even Poseidon wasn't able to possess Julian until the seal of Athena is broken by Kannon.

This is not of my own made up fact, it is solid fact straight from the manga.

Fact: during Seiya's fight with Saga in Sanctuary, Saga himself said how he can over come Zeus, Poseidon AND Hades to take over the world and no longer need to pretend using Athena's name to do so. Over comes HADES too!!!

Fact: The "Seal of Athena" on the tower that sealed Hades' 108 spectors was not broken till AFTER Poseidon's event.

Fact: Saga's evil spirit has been active for the duration of 13 years way before the seal on the tower is broken.

Fact: Hypnos and Thanatos said it themselves, ask Pandora to protect Hades' spirit till the time of Athena's Seal is broken then Hades will come to this world and the final battle will begin.

With these solid evidences, you can no longer said that I provid no facts that shows proof the spirit that possessed Saga is NOT Hades' spirit. I really don't understand why you don't agree to these solid facts? I'm not argueing with you because I don't like you, I only want to provide the most correct info from the story itself because I've seen a lot of websites out there using Wiki's info as source, therefore it's important not to mislead people with info that is not correct and I'm not saying that you provide only false info, people makes mistakes, if some how you over look something in manga, it's cool, we'll help each other fix it. My fight is not with you, there's no agenda or enemy here only passionate Saint Seiya followers.Yajaec 08:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Please, you've said it yourself. Hades' soul wasn't imprisonned in the sealed tower. It was "born" on Earth 13 years before the beginning of the actual story. Which matches with Saga's symptoms.

Hades himself wasn't sealed anywhere after his birth, and was completely free to roam the world and to act as he sees fit. There's absolutely nothing preventing him to possess Saga.

What are your saying ????? HAVE YOU READ THE MANGA ONCE IN YOUR LIFE ??? No, of course you haven't. What's this ? Hades was never sealed in the tower, he was "born" from Pandora's mother, in her castle in Germany 13 years ago, how could he be sealed in the tower in China ???? Pandora was already taking Hades' soul with her throughout the world when she, Ikki and shun were just kids.

Please think, how could be be sealed anywhere, since he was released into the world 1" years ago ? How could he be affected by the seal on the chinese tower, since he was already born and completely free, in Germany, 13 years before the seal broke ???

Next time you'll add misinformation, your edits will be taken as vandalism.

And worse, you continue with your stupid claims about your so-called Ares...But seriously, can't you read ?

I repeat: Ares was never mentioned in Saint Seiya and there's absolutely nothing, nothing, NOTHING, even hinting at a supposed possession by Ares.

This stupid claim is based on various mistranslations and misunderstandings from the anime that I have already clarified !!

"Obviously you have been confused by the name the anime script writers gave to Pope Saga : Arles.

They gave the evil pope this name, when Kurumada hadn't yet thought about the story of Saga and Shion. This "Arles" name was an early decision of the script writers, as when they introduced the Crystal Saint, which was found to be highly contradictory with the latter scenario written by Kurumada in his manga.

To recify the incoherence, Takao Koyama, the main script writer of the anime, wrote a side story in one of the Jump Gold databook : it told the story of Saga, and how he first killed, Arles, Shion's young brother, and assumed his identity. When Shion died, he hadn't named a successor, and then Arles was chosen as the natural sucessor of Shion. But it was in fact Saga, assuming Arles identity. And that's why the Pope was named Arles in the anime.

But in the manga, this name (which could be confused with the name of the greek god of war) never appear. The pope is always thought to be Shion, then Saga.".

Last time I tell you this. After, you'll get proper vandalism warnings. Folken de Fanel 23:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

Dude, calm down, no need to get all worked up like that. First of all, I stated everything straight from manga, please don't use harsh accusation tone toward me as I am talking to you nicely. Manga never clearly stated that Hades' spirit was roaming freely after birth, that's your POV, it is not NPOV. Please provide citation in manga clearly stated "Hades' spirit roamed freely" while Hypnose and Thanatos clearly in managa told Pandora to protect Hades' spirit till the seal is broken on the tower when Hades' army is released.

Second, the managa never clearly stated the tower is exactly in CHINA, it only stated that Dohko was watching/monitor it from however many hundreds or thounsands miles away while sitting in front of the water fall. You said and I quote "how could he be sealed in the tower in China ???? " that is your POV not a clear stated fact in manga and again it's your POV of explaination not a NPOV. Please provide and cite fact that in managa that it clearly stated the tower is in China.

Thirdly, please don't call me stupid or accuse me that I never read manga. It is RUDE and uncalled for as I never called you stupid, and please try not to take this whole thing personally. I only want the article to be as close to true hard fact and I'm sure you do, I can tell you have this big flame of passion while debating your position but please remain calm and don't call people stupid or accuse them for never read the managa just because they don't agree with you.

And please re-read what I posted on the article regarding Ares yesterday, I think you mis-read how I write it. I write it as a neutrual statment. I only stated that "It is widely debated that the spirit could be Ares..." I never said it "IS" Ares in the article. This statment is true, it IS widely debated as I've seen it being posted again and again on the talk area for many people talked about it. So before you call it a "stupid claim" read clearly as it claimed nothing.

As for what you said about Takao Koyama regarding Ares' name. I'm not dismissing it yet but please provide a cite or link on the Saga page to an article that stated the situation of how the name Ares or Arles came to be to have a hard fact source. As I never argue with you regarding to what Mr. Takao Koyama said but I'm sure people and other users here would appreciated if you can provide this link/citation.

And last, please keep in mind of Wiki's policy regarding having good faith in people, we may stand on a different ground on this issue but it's no excuse to call people Stupid. If you could calm down and discuss this nicely the other users and I would appreciate it. Thank you.Yajaec 17:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm perfectly calm, but obviously you have difficulties reading me.

First, the manga clearly stated that Hades' spirit was roaming freely after birth: it has never been stated that Hades was under any kind of seal or restriction. He was born' again, on Earth (and no specter could be born on Earth before being freed from the tower, or from "Pandora's box"), 13 years before the beginning of the story. Period. He wasn't under any kind of restrinction, Pandora even took him to Japan.

Hypnos and Thanatos only said to Pandora that she was to take care of Hades until the 108 specters could be freed again. That's all.

So I'm asking you again, please provide citation in the manga clearly stating that "Hades' spirit could not roam freely". Unless you have any proof, this remains POV.

Second, in volume 19, Dohko is sitting in Rozan, China, and states that the tower is 1000 kms away from Rozan (or Lushan, as it is named in chinese). However, the design of the actual tower is inspired by the Bayon temple, in Angkor, Cambodia. There's about 2000 kms between the Lushan area and Cambodia, so the tower could be anywhere between Lushan and Angkor (either in south-eastern China, Thailand, Laos or Vietnam). Also, it is worth noting that either Lushan or Angkor are more than 8000 kms away from Germany.

Third, I've never said you were stupid, but your theories are. And obviously you don't know, or have forgotten, many facts from the manga.

Fourth, about Ares, it has been debate, and it has been utterly debunked. This claim was based on minstranslations and misunderstanding.

Ares isn't mentionned anywhere in the manga, the character technically doesn't exist, the theory comes from nowhere. therefore, it is POV and original research, so it won't be on Misplaced Pages.

So as usual, please provide citation in the manga clearly stating that "Ares was involved in Saga's possession".

Beside, you didn't say "it has been debated that" but "it's Ares, period".

Fifth, it is in Jump Gold Selection - Anime Special 2, (19th november 1988), p. 40 to 46.

There's a translation of the Side Story here :

Folken de Fanel 01:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Gemini Saga's evil spirit. Is it Hades' or no?

This is a dispute about the spirit that possessed Saga in the Santuary Chapter.17:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• User: Folken de Fanel
  • 1) the same hair color change occurs when both Saga and Shun are possessed 2) It has been explained that the change happened because Hades has jet-black hairs 3) Ikki noted the similarities between the 2 transformations. Folken de Fanel 10:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Hades' soul wasn't imprisonned in the sealed tower. It was "born" on Earth 13 years before the beginning of the actual story. Which matches with Saga's symptoms.
  • Hades himself wasn't sealed anywhere after his birth, and was completely free to roam the world and to act as he sees fit. There's absolutely nothing preventing him to possess Saga.Folken de Fanel 23:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

• User: Yajaec

• • Fact: during Seiya's fight with Saga in Sanctuary, Saga himself said how he can over come Zeus, Poseidon AND Hades to take over the world and no longer need to pretend using Athena's name to do so. Over comes HADES too!!!

• • Fact: The "Seal of Athena" on the tower that sealed Hades' 108 spectors was not broken till AFTER Poseidon's event.

• • Fact: Saga's evil spirit has been active for the duration of 13 years way before the seal on the tower is broken.

• • Fact: Hypnos and Thanatos said it themselves, ask Pandora to protect Hades' spirit till the time of Athena's Seal is broken then Hades will come to this world and the final battle will begin. Yajaec 08:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Please also see section number 29, 30, 31 above this post.

Comments

All users are welcome to comment regarding this issue. State first: Agree, Disagree or Other please also provide some writing of NPOV including verifiable informations. Thank you.17:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree completely with Folken de Fanel, that is, me. Because (answering to Yajaec's arguments):

• • Saga managed to retain control over his body, thus the spirit inside him could not entirely manifest and may have forgotten parts of his identity. Or if it's Hades, he just wants to remain unknown even at the end.

• • Fact: it has been stated in manga volume 27 that Hades wasn't sealed in the tower with the 108 specters, he was "born" on Earth 13 years before the beginning of the story, 13 years before the tower broke and the specters were freed. Hades's soul was thus completely free.

• • Fact: Hypnos and Thanatos ask Pandora to take care of Hades while his army was still sealed in the tower. But Hades himself was resurrected on Earth 13 years ago, in Pandor'as Castle, in Germany. Thus he was never sealed in the tower.

Conclusion N°1 : Yajaec has never read manga volume 27.

Conclusion N°2: Yajaec is continually denying the truth and trying to ignore what I'm saying to him, because he is still keeping the stupid hope that by talking to someone other than me, he'll find someone saying he's right. But this'll never be the case, because I have already proved Yajaec was wrong, and the matter was already settled long ago. Folken de Fanel 01:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

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