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	Berbers was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result January 10, 2007 Good article nominee Listed May 7, 2008 Good article reassessment Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article

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This article is about a topic whose name is originally rendered in the Berber script; however the article does not have that version of its name in the article's lead paragraph. Anyone who is knowledgeable enough with the original language is invited to assist in adding the Berber script. For more information, see: MOS:FOREIGN.

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Ethnic Berbers

I have just made this edit.

Obviously we don't need to make reference to those speakers of Berber because the part deals with the size of the ethnic group particularly with regard to those that no longer speak a Berber tongue. Basically, ethnicity is defined - not by parental or recorded heritage - but by individual identity. The fact is that there many many who identify as Berber or declare a Berber pedigree and these are known from the censa of the relevant countries. As such, my edit clarifies this point. --IHBR-YSA (talk) 18:17, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Infobox needs work

I count only 14 names; there are 16 photos in the mosaic! Click on it, and File:Berbers_Mosaic.jpg doesn't list the names in order but does list 16 source images, from which the right names visually matched. A job for a wikignome with more time than I have at the moment.... --Middle 8 (talk) 17:32, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I had a good one up there, until some dipshit decided to change back to this joke they'd call a mosaic. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 17:55, 17 April 2014 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

The fifth picture is of Abdelkader el Djezairi, a 19th century Algerian nobleman. The other missing description belongs to the tenth photo; that is Kateb Yacine, an Algerian authour. As far as I can tell, both are, in fact, of Berber ethnicity besides being Algerians. The Yacine picture can be checked against his French entry; I'm sure it has credentials there. Wiki_Walker_Texas_ranger (talk) 0:34, 27 April 2014

Fixed. I couldn't see anything on Abdelkader's page about being a Berber, but I'll leave that for people that actually understand the subject. 130.216.173.20 (talk) 10:17, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Miscapitalization of animism

A contentious user, @Amaruca, keeps miscapping animism. The main article on Misplaced Pages does not capitalize it, so we do not need to fight that battle here for this pedantic user. The source claimed (Sponsel, L. (2006). Animism. In H. Birx (Ed.), Encyclopedia of anthropology. (pp. 81-82). Thousand Oaks, CA: SAGE Publications, Inc. doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.4135/9781412952453.n32) is not available freely-"Users without subscription are not able to see the full content on this title." which is an old trick to hide dishonesty. That article, the visible start at least, says itself "The ultimate source of the term animism is the Latin word, anima , meaning spirit, soul, or life force. In contemporary anthropology, animism is the generic term for numerous and diverse religions focused on the belief that nature includes spirits, sacred forces, and similar extraordinary phenomena. This is reflected in the classic minimal definition of religion, a belief in spiritual beings, that was originally formulated by the famous British anthropologist Sir Edward Burnett Tylor in his 1871 book Primitive Cultures . Tylor viewed animism as the basis of all religions and the earliest stage in the evolution of religion. Animism remains relevant to considerations regarding such elemental conceptual dualities as animal and human, nature and culture, natural and supernatural, inanimate and animate, body and mind, and life and death. In general, animists believe that supernatural forces inhabit animals, plants, rocks, and other objects in nature." Did you count how many times the word animism was lower-cased? I bolded them so you can count. Four times in the lead paragraph. I have no problem with animism, I do have a problem with misusing the English language and using false arguments to support the misuse. I will continue to revert your miscap every time you make it.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 01:26, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

1. Kintetsubuffalo's allegation that the journal article is not freely available is false. The article was easy to find and is cited by several other reputable authors. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?ion=1&espv=2&es_th=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&lr=&cites=4017241442379339601

2. If Kintetsubuffalo would like to take this debate up with Professor Snodgrass, I'm sure he would be more than willing.

3. The use of "Animism" is not a "general" term when used to describe the official belief of any people. Bigotry is a state of mind where a person strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. Some examples include personal beliefs, race, religion, national origin, gender, disability, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, or other group characteristics. Here's the direct quote from Study of Religion, Nature and Culture: "We capitalize Animism in order to bestow on indigenous religions the same dignity as other purported ‘world religions’ such as Christianity, Buddhism, and Hinduism. We do not capitalize this term in its adjectival and adverbial forms."

4. Kintetsubuffalo's assertion that "supernatural forces inhabit (list inane objects here)" is clear evidence of Kintetsubuffalo's bigotry towards indigenous peoples.--Amaruca (talk) 08:57, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I asserted no such thing-it's from your claimed source, which you obviously didn't bother to read.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 09:56, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

After careful review of the Journal article (which is available freely) I have found that all occurrences of the term "Animism" are properly capitalized. That will make the third time that I have read the article and yet you continue to make spurious allegations and engage in ad hominem. The article properly capitalizes the use of "Animist" as well in the formal use.

1. Snodgrass, Jeffrey G. (2008). "Indigenous Nature Reverence and Conservation: Seven Ways of Transcending an Unnecessary Dichotomy". Journal for the Study of Religion, Nature and Culture. 2 (1).
2. Snodgrass, Jeffrey G. (2008). "Indigenous Nature Reverence and Conservation: Seven Ways of Transcending an Unnecessary Dichotomy". Journal for the Study of Religion, Nature and Culture. 2 (1).

Quoted from "Indigenous Nature Reverence and Conservation— Seven Ways of Transcending an Unnecessary Dichotomy" (page 6 of the Journal) here for clarification: "Indigenous peoples around the world revere their environment’s trees, rivers, grasses, stones, hills, and forests.Often labeled ‘Animists’, indigenous peoples also personify their environments, treating both their lands and the non-human denizens occupying those lands as persons to be related to as cognizant and communicative subjects rather than as inert or insignificant objects. One would imagine that this reverence and personification of their surroundings would lead indigenous peoples to conscious conservation thought and practice: that they would do everything in their power, logic would seem to dictate, to protect the deities; likewise, that they would strive not to harm plant and animal persons who, in many respects, possess a right to life equal to that of humans." --Amaruca (talk) 10:12, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I just clicked on http://knowledge.sagepub.com/view/anthropology/n32.xml , which was your original claimed source. Nothing has changed, and you're still making up strawmen.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 10:26, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Let's just get rid of that one so we can deal with the Journal article only. That should take care of your "strawman".

Let's take this up with the society who peer reviewed and published the article in the first place:

The International Society for the Study of Religion, Nature and Culture (ISSRNC) is a community of scholars engaged in critical inquiry into the relationships among human beings and their diverse cultures, environments, religious beliefs and practices. The ISSRNC facilitates scholarly collaboration and research, and disseminates research findings through regular conferences and the affiliated Journal for the Study of Religion, Nature, and Culture.

  The ISSRNC is affiliated with the International Association for the History of Religions (IAHR), 

which promotes the critical, analytical and cross-cultural study of religion. The IAHR is a member of the Conseil International de la Philosophie et des Sciences Humaines/ The International Council for Philosophy and Humanistic Studies (CIPSH), under the auspices of UNESCO.(UTC) http://www.religionandnature.com/society/index.htm--Amaruca (talk) 10:38, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

And now blanking my text to support your spurious claim... You have now, in addition to POV pushing, changed sources from one that that clearly does not support your claim, to one with no pagelinks or way to access it. I am reporting you for editwarring.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 02:08, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Kintetsubuffalo's allegation that I am "POV pushing" is a frail attempt to obscure an insistence on a bigoted assertion. Not only does Kintetsubuffalo fail to cite sources to defend their position but they engage in name calling and bullying tactics to steamroll their opponents.

Kintetsubuffalo's ad hominem attacks on this subject are persistent and erroneous. Kintetsubuffalo is the edit warring type if I've ever seen one. --Amaruca — Preceding undated comment added 04:59, 6 December 2014 (UTC) So it appears that Kintetsubuffalo is going to edit war the talk page as well. It's time for arbitration.

http://anthropology.colostate.edu/snodgrass/ I suggest taking up the subject with this gentleman.--Amaruca (talk) 08:14, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

• Animist should not be capitalized when you are making edits such as these, , because animism is a belief. Not a religion like you are thinking. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 10:56, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Can you provide any scholarly references to support your position against the references I have provided above?--Amaruca (talk) 12:08, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Colonial times

I stumble over a sentence in the lead: "Especially in school, Algerians were forced to speak French instead of their previous mother tongues, which included classical Arabic, the Berber language and all of its dialects. Algerians were required to speak a single language, French". This as nearly (but not quite) accurate quote of the source: "Especially in school, Algerians were forced to speak French instead of their previous mother tongues; this included classical Arabic, the Berber language and all of its dialects, and all regional vernacular Algerian Arabic dialects. Algerians were required to speak a single language, French, (...)". It has one problem, and that is that classical Arabic wasn't the mother tongue of anybody in Algeria not at that time and probably not at any other time. Probably, the author has misread her own source (Derrida) and is somehow lumping together the concept of mother tongue (Berber and Algerian Arabic) and the concept of languages which couldn't be accessed in school (classical Arabic, having been the only language used for teaching in schools before French colonialism). Correct would be: Algerians where forbidden access to any other language in school, this included their mother tongues Berber and Algerian Arabic as well as classical Arabic. Anyhow, I think we don't need that particular quote in an already very long lead. It could well be moved and perhaps better explained to a new section below about what happened to Berber languages during colonial times. There is not one word about it, but something should be written. Also pointing out the rules at French schools in one country of North Africa (it does not apply to other countries) in the lead of an article about Berbers as ethnic group, might be undue weight. A new section would be fine. Ilyacadiz (talk) 19:54, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Christians?

Since April 2012, the following sentence has been tagged as "citation lacking": Historically, the small minority of remaining Christian Berbers assimilated into French culture and moved to France after independence (with some pied-noirs being of Berber or part-Berber blood), leaving no more than minuscule numbers in North Africa. I've never heard about Christianity being conserved in the Maghreb until the 19th century, and although of course everything is possible, a good source is needed to sustain this claim. I eliminate it for the moment, but leave it here - anybody who can bring a source is welcome to put it back. Ilyacadiz (talk) 20:48, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Population

The article currently lists in the infobox an estimated population of +30 million citing two sources. One source "Berberism & Berber Political Movements" does not provide population figures. The other, Fox news from 2012, states There are no official figures for the number of Berbers in North Africa, but estimates for those who speak one of the many Berber languages are around 25-30 million, mainly concentrated in Morocco and Algeria. There must be better sources out there. Could someone help find them? --Bejnar (talk) 03:31, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

There are no official figures of Berbers population. You can consider removing that whole part from the article. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 03:37, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

"Caucasian"?

"...Caucasian group of people ethnically indigenous to North Africa..." I find this ambiguous in meaning, and very confusing. There is no ethnic nor genetic connection between North African peoples and peoples of the Caucasus. Did the writer (perhaps not a native English speaker) mean lighter-skinned, as in "Caucasoid"? Anyone want to take a stand and venture an edit? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.20.8.226 (talk) 02:02, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Yeah it seems "Caucasoid" was perhaps the gist. It doesn't necessarily mean lighter-skinned, though. Many Berbers like the Tuareg and Siwa are darker-skinned. Similarly, archaeogenetic work in Europe has found that some local populations were still dark-skinned until relatively recently, around 7000-8000 years ago . Soupforone (talk) 03:04, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Caucasian is classification, not a race. Berbers are caucasoid because of their skull shapes therefore making them caucasian. Akmal94 (talk) 15:48, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Caucasian ethnic group indigenous to North Africa is a bit unencyclopedic and confusing for the lead. If necessary, Caucasoid would be more appropriate under origins to avoid confusion with the peoples of the Caucasus (also called Caucasians). Soupforone (talk) 02:48, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

As per the dictionnary, Caucasian and Caucasoid are both correct, but Caucasian, of course, has two different meanings and can therefore be confusing, as Soupforone remarks. I think we should not use any of them, as it is not strictly necessary. If you look up Dinka or Tutsi you'll not find a description including they are Negroid. Pictures are included, and a reader will understand into what apparent category they're fitting (there is no such thing as a scientific race category in use today). Maybe we should put a picture of some Berber people (I got some) in a prominent space higher up on the page, before all the historic statuettes and rock paintings, so the reader will get a first and clarifying impression. Ilyacadiz (talk) 11:32, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

I did not use the term 'Caucasian' precisely because it is ambiguous; I used 'Caucasoid'. I do not understand OP's objections. Also, since Americans (including Americans of African descent) tend to be quite unfamiliar with North Africa and its people, I think it should be clarified in the lead that Berbers are by and large not of Sub-Saharan descent (Negroid). Africa not being the indigenous home of only Negroid ethnicities is a source of confusion for Americans. Western Europeans tend to not hold this misconception because they typically have had more contact with different North African peoples at home as well as in North Africa (North Africa is a relatively popular holiday destination for Western Europeans — or at least it used to be before the Arab Spring) 2A02:1811:8D05:7100:29C6:E6A3:9AC0:9D04 (talk) 23:36, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

@Soupforone using white people in this respective encyclopedia would be very unclassy. Undescribable is All (talk) 07:48, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Recent approximative figures edit about Berber people

What about it? DNA tests show that maghrebins are mixed. 105.154.153.19 (talk) 08:03, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism

Someone vandalising the pageNotAlpArslan (talk) 13:18, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Why don't you tell us what specifically you are reporting here? —Largo Plazo (talk) 13:34, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@NotAlpArslan: I showed you in the edit summary where Misplaced Pages covers inline HTML comments (MOS:COMMENT), and no mention is made of the right to add them being restricted to admin. I'm going to restore the comment, and warn you against removing it again unless you back up your reason for doing so with a reference to a Misplaced Pages guideline.. —Largo Plazo (talk) 19:04, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Try not to reply, i don't really discuss. there is a summary.NotAlpArslan (talk) 19:19, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

• Delisted good articles
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• C-Class Berbers articles
• Top-importance Berbers articles
• WikiProject Berbers articles
• C-Class Africa articles
• Top-importance Africa articles
• C-Class Libya articles
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• WikiProject Libya articles
• C-Class Mali articles
• Top-importance Mali articles
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• C-Class Mauritania articles
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• C-Class Niger articles
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• C-Class Tunisia articles
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• C-Class Western Sahara articles
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• C-Class Morocco articles
• Top-importance Morocco articles
• C-Class Egypt articles
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• C-Class Algeria articles
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• Articles needing Berber script or text