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User:Scientus

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am here to discuss the behavior of Scientus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Scientus has been edit-warring in recent weeks on four articles that I'm aware of:

• Antisemitism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Islam and antisemitism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Since May, Scientus has been pushing the POV that the word "antisemitism" discriminates against Arabs and any other non-Jewish Semites. In its place, Scientus has been promoting the obscure term "Judeophobia" despite an overwhelming consensus against it (see both articles' Talk pages, including recent archives, especially the failed Requested move initiated by Scientus at Talk:Islam and antisemitism).
• Israel (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Last week, Scientus deleted the assertion that Israel has universal suffrage. When the assertion was restored, Scientus rightly started a Talk page discussion on the subject. When every editor in the discussion disagreed with Scientus, the editor started changing the article against consensus and edit-warring to preserve her/his changes. Israel is subject to a 1RR restriction, which Scientus has (barely) respected, making reversions 24 hours apart.
• Libya (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • On June 20, Scientus rewrote the lead of Libya. The changes made by Scientus were reverted by three editors (one of whom was me), each of whom asked Scientus to use the Talk page to discuss the changes. No discussion at Talk:Libya. On June 28, Scientus started making the same changes to the lead and, not surprisingly, was reverted. Scientus started a Talk page discussion. On June 30, after nobody had replied on the Talk page in 29 hours, Scientus restored her/his favored version of the lead. When that change was reverted (by an IP editor), Scientus went ahead and deleted part of the lead, saying "please find a source for this i couldnt find one".

I brought this complaint here, as opposed to WP:ANEW, because this is a broader issue than violating 1RR or 3RR. Scientus evidently has a hard time listening to others and that is becoming a growing problem. I would appreciate other editors' thoughts on the matter. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 05:49, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Comment: Given the number of warnings by reputable users on the user's talk page since June 19 (some of which have been deleted by the user), I'm surprised he hasn't been blocked already. I can however understand that Malik Shabazz has refrained from doing so, as an involved admin. It seems at present the user is here to push an agenda and edit war rather than to build an encyclopedia or edit collaboratively and learn and abide by Misplaced Pages policies. It seems clear to me that he has had enough cumulative warnings and that the next step is probably a block, the only question being how long. Softlavender (talk) 06:06, 1 July 2015 (UTC); edited 06:11, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Comment: As per my experience Scientus is nice editor and he can be useful for Misplaced Pages, but he should learn policies of Misplaced Pages, I have already given my advice to him on his talk page. And Softlavender please don't use word "reputable users" here, Misplaced Pages is not about reputation and senior-junior like in colleges. Sometimes even IPs can act more sensible than admins. Read article WP:IPs are human too for more detail. We have to go by wikipedia policies and if Scientus is breaking the rules then we should advice him instead of playing game of senior-junior or reputation. Today's IP can be tomorrows admin if he opens account. Or every admin was once a un-confirmed user. --Human3015 knock knock • 18:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Is there a source for that removed sentence of Libya? If not, I do not see what the problem is. That sentence was my real issue, but I was changing other things at the same time, which apparently irritated people.

There was no debate on the basic facts regarding "universal suffrage" for Israel. If the admin Milik Shabazz insists getting me banned because there are no facts backing up his dislike of removing or clarifying the term "universal suffrage" when he clearly knows better then Misplaced Pages is not a website I want to contribute to. My current suggestion would be to clarify to "universal suffrage except for citizens of the West Bank, Gaza, and other Arab countries.",or "universal suffrage within the non-disputed territories" (which isn't strictly true as is discussed at Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law), or simply removing "universal suffrage".To claim that a country where 1/3rd of the population (irrespective of age) is excluding from voting rights "universal suffrage" is preposterous.Scientus (talk) 18:19, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Scientus is not an IP, nor is he a new user, so I don't see the relevance of User:Human3015's comments. He's been editing since 2009, but seems to have become somewhat, shall we say idiosyncratic, recently. Though his primary interest is Jewish/Israeli-related content. He has also edit warred on other unrelated articles. For some reason he decided that there should be a picture by El Greco on the Angels in art article. Fine, but he chose to include a portrait of a Pope Cardinal Don Fernando Niño in which no angels are to be seen, on the basis that Robert Prisig said that it was in some metaphorical sense a portrayal of an angel. At least that had some rationale, but it was then replaced by a picture of Jesus, for no apparent reason other than the fact that Jesus has a halo . He edit warred, admittedly in a minor way, to keep this image. He seems to be fascinated by a fairly obscure spelling project called Unspell, and repeatedly tried to insert it into English alphabet against consensus. He has waged a war across several articles to replace the term "anti-Semitism" with "Judeophobia" because he thinks it is more accurate, despite a mass of evidence that the former is overwhelmingly the most common term per WP:NAME. The main problem with this editor is that he acts as though his pet likes and dislikes should override all relevant policies and guidelines. Paul B (talk) 18:43, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Halo painting added to Halo https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Halo_(religious_iconography)&diff=669523300&oldid=668640603 .Scientus (talk) 19:25, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, of course we need another halo at "Halo (religious iconography", just in case readers haven't already twigged what they look like from the 32 other illustrations of halos that article already had. Paul B (talk) 19:29, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

I put it in its own section Halo_(religious_iconography)#Philosophy_of_Halos. Appears I was wrong and the book did not talk about angels at all. Scientus (talk) 19:56, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

This is exactly what's wrong with Scientus. He seems to like El Greco. Well, great. So do I. But we don't want to smear an article on halos that already has over thirty illustrations, with a bunch of El Grecos that don't depict halos. He's added El Greco's portrait of Cardinal Don Fernando Niño again. Cardinal Don has no halo. He's added another El Greco of the holy family, in which they have no visible halos (the light is coming from the glow of a cloth around Jesus - not a halo). See the additions at Halo_(religious_iconography)#Philosophy_of_Halos. This is madness. We also have some utter drivel added from Robert Prisig, an author with no expertise in religious iconography whatever. Paul B (talk) 20:09, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• In making the following personal attack, "...FUCK YOU for calling me racist you insensitive piece of shit. Go fuck yourself!", Scientus blanked the warning and then rebuffed the admin that warned him about the attack. This isn't promising.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 20:15, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Especially as the editor in question never once called him a racist. Paul B (talk) 21:15, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Is "anti-Semitism" racism, or is it not racism? You are going in circles. And BTW, my great-gradfather fled the Jewish programs in Ukraine/Russia. Scientus (talk) 00:23, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, I was acting as an editor, not an admin, as I have been heavily involved in Scientus' latest disputes. But yes, the attack was uncalled for and the reasoning behind some of his edits is very idiosyncratic. --NeilN 23:08, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Pretty clear Scientus has gone off the rails at this point and the only question is what to do about it, since numerous cumulative warnings and even this ANI haven't gotten through to him. If no admin wants to take action quite yet without a community consensus, perhaps someone should start a proposal/poll below with a suggestion and then allow !voting. Softlavender (talk) 02:33, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

My recommendation is that an administrator craft a carefully worded topic ban that prevents this editor from participating in editing pertaining to anti-Semitism, halos, angels, El Greco, or any other darned topic where their input has been disruptive. I support such a topic ban. Cullen Let's discuss it 07:00, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

While it's clear that Scientus's edits in particular subject areas are problematic, it's not clear to me that this actually has anything to do with the subject areas, as opposed to a general competency/noncollaborativity issue. --JBL (talk) 16:21, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Totally agree with that -- there is no topic-ban wide enough to contain the issues. There needs to be a block of some sort -- it only remains to be determined how long. The blockable issues are many, recurring, and widespread. For the number of issues and their intransigency, my personal view would be a six-month block, but it could start as little as one week. Softlavender (talk) 04:11, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

I would certainly support a 1-week block. --JBL (talk) 15:34, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

What is your definition of "universal suffrage"? Cause those words quite literally means everyone (universal) votes (suffrage).Scientus (talk) 00:21, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Once again, Scientus, you mistake the literal meaning of words for their meaning. See Talk:Israel#No Universal Sufferage (sic), where I addressed that question nearly two weeks ago. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:24, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Of German, Spanish, French, Hebrew and Arabic only the Spanish claims "universal suffrage", and it is clearly a translation of the English article. The Arabic article is discusses how the 1948 borders impact eligibility to vote. As was said above, if the admin Mike Shabazz wants me banned in order to push the preposterous claim that Israel has "universal suffrage" without clarifying how *universal* it is then it is hard to feel welcome on Misplaced Pages. I asked above for clarification on what *universal suffrage* means in this context, and the discussion has dried up. Again, the discussion on the talk page there basic facts were agreed on. Since this ANI was opened I worked on the Barefruit page for example which was nominated for deletion.Scientus (talk) 06:06, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Scientus, stop arguing at this ANI filing and read the discussion in the thread on the article's talk page, where consensus must be determined. "Universal suffrage" means voting by all adult citizens. It does not mean voting by children or non-citizens. Stop this nonsense before you get yourself permanently banned from Misplaced Pages. Softlavender (talk) 06:15, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

All adult citizens within the 1948 borders. Israel has domination over the West Bank but there is no universal suffrage there, either of the State of Palestine or Israel. One of my edits said "universal suffrage in the undisputed territories", and even this was reverted.Scientus (talk) 22:58, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Scientus keeps violating 1RR on Israel, perhaps some admin could put a temporary block for a few days until a decision is made regarding a longer term one ? “WarKosign” 07:16, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: Block

Scientus has had 16 user-page warnings since May 25, yet has continued his disruptive editing, edit-warring, defiance of Misplaced Pages policy and/or consensus, vile unprovoked and completely erroneous personal attacks, inability to hear, and general incompetence. Whatever may have been his past contributions prior to May 2015, he is clearly no longer here to build an encyclopedia. I propose that he be blocked, for at least one week or as long as six months -- the length at the discretion of an uninvolved admin or community consensus. Softlavender (talk) 02:42, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support, as proposer, a block of at least one month an indefinite block, for the continued cumulative number and types of disruptions/violations (ETA: which have continued even now per Malik Shabazz's recent comment above ). Softlavender (talk) 02:42, 9 July 2015 (UTC); edited 04:37, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support, support, support. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:24, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support. --JBL (talk) 16:51, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support. at least one month.Pincrete (talk) 08:50, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support -- Yeah, at least a month. If he has a number of warnings then he should be blocked for at least a month --EurovisionNim (talk to me)(see my edits) 02:57, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support, from what I've read seems long overdue, I'd actually recommend longer than a month, a quick check of their block log shows this behavior has been apparently going on since 2009. Azealia911 _talk 09:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support, length of block to be determined by closer upon evaluation of the scope and quality of the disruption. BMK (talk) 21:23, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support for a moderate block I am entirely uninvolved in this situation, but I've read the comments here, reviewed the user's edits, and read the talk pages in question. There were definitely personal attacks and uncivil behavior that warrant a block. However, I do not think that a six-month block is called for. For example, consider the discussion at Talk:Israel#No_Universal_Sufferage. On the one hand, Scientus obviously shouldn't have been violating revert rules. On the other hand, the responses to Scientus's arguments here show a decent amount of hostility, and they don't present the well-reasoned arguments that are implied above. I think a moderate block (perhaps a month) will serve to remind Scientus that personal attacks and edit warring aren't OK, while avoiding punishing them for having unorthodox views. agtx 15:05, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Request for close

NOTE: This report was filed 12 days ago and the problem is accelerating. Could an admin please deal with this and resolve this issue? Softlavender (talk) 23:30, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

This opener of the issue is an admin.Scientus (talk) 23:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

We know that. We are seeking uninvolved admins. Softlavender (talk) 02:46, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Lachlan Foley, genre warring again

Lachlan Foley has resumed genre warring after his week-long block a few weeks ago, received as a result of this ANI post. They are edit-warring at the article Marquee Moon, attempting to rearrange the order of the genres listed in the infobox. I suspect they have some prejudice against "post-punk" as a genre since they tagged it for needing a citation at Pornography (album) but not the other genre listed there (). This editor is becoming a disruptive annoyance. My warnings to their talk page have been useless as they have not responded or taken accountability for the genre changes they've made. Block them, warn them effectively... do something, seriously *sigh* Dan56 (talk) 05:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

This Incident nomination should be about @Dan56, not me.

Dan56 reverted my completely harmless, inconsequential edit which can be seen in the Marquee Moon article history, and had the temerity to call it "genre warring". He also has failed to realise – and has since been corrected by another user – that post-punk was not cited at the Pornography (album) page, and gothic rock, indeed, is. I think he is grasping at straws looking for things I am doing to complain about and is reverting my changes on the Marquee Moon article out of spite. Lachlan Foley (talk) 05:42, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Where was "gothic rock" cited at the time you edited Pornography (album)? And where was the consensus or discussion you created to support rearranging and revising the genres at Marquee Moon? Nowhere is where, because you are nothing but a genre warrior, an editor who spends 99% of their time making revisions to the genre parameter of the infobox. I do not know enough to want to "spite" you for something because I don't know anything about you, except for your pattern of behavior as an editor, and your edit history doesn't lie. If your edit is "completely harmless, inconsequential", then stop restoring it, and refrain from revising the genre parameter of the infobox at album articles because you clearly have a disruptive obsession for it. Again, your edit history is made up almost entirely of those kind of edits. Dan56 (talk) 06:12, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Seeing as these articles are either GA or FA, then the minimum LF should do is raise the issue on the talkpage(s), instead of going back to exactly the same behaviour that got him blocked only last month. Lugnuts 08:41, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Lachan is even completely removing the genre from some albums, so many of them do not even have a single genre to accomandate the article. What is there to gain from this?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 07:05, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

So this on-going edit-warring and WP:DE is OK by the admins? Good, glad that's clear. Lugnuts 10:01, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

They will not stop. Just a few from today: , Dan56 (talk) 03:49, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Why are admins ignoring this? All the damage he is causing will take so much time to fix. You can't just simply remove genres with no excuse. Many of the genres are sourced, but in the article itself.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 04:03, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Smalljim, You have to make something. Now he makes the genre disappear from the infoboxes like here and obviously he drowns his edit by making a few domestic changes regarding the visual aspect of the infobox. This is wp:POINTy and disruptive. I'm tired of spending hours to revert his edits instead of adding historical content like I used to make on Siouxsie and the Banshees related articles; today out of the blue user:Freshacconci has the guts to say that it was my edits that were genre warring whereas he obviously doesn't know anything on Lachlan's history. Why after being blocked for Genre warring, does LF have the right to keep on acting exactly the same way without being blocked once again. Carliertwo (talk) 16:12, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment My only involvement here is at the Dear Prudence article. From what I saw, User:Lachlan Foley added a hidden message to the infobox stating that only sourced genres should be added, while removing unsourced content. User:Carliertwo reverted back to the unsourced content and incorrectly stated in the edit summary that references are not permitted in infoboxes. According to WP:INFOBOXREF, references certainly are permitted if necessary. This is the standard for all Beatle song articles as they have a history of genre warriors adding their own idea of genres to the infoboxes. Keeping in mind that the issue here involves the infobox for the Siouxsie and the Banshees' version of the song, most Beatle song articles include a reference in the infobox for genre(s) listed. I have no opinion on what the correct genre of the Siouxsie and the Banshees cover is, but it should be referenced in the text and if not, in the infobox. As for the battle between Carliertwo and Lachlan Foley, I am uninvolved (although coming "out of the blue" is somewhat WP:OWNish, as if I have no right to make an edit or state an opinion -- I won't bother with my the " the guts" comment as that statement is puerile). What I saw was one editor reverting what appeared to be a useful edit in favour of a version that included unsourced content, with an incorrect edit summary. freshacconci talk to me 17:25, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

For Dear Prudence, what it is saying here is that LF's edit erasing the genre from the infobox of Siouxsie's version was "useful" because it was unsourced content. Well, so why didn't the 2 genres (present in the infobox of the Beatles's version) erase too? Those are also unsourced content, as it is not documented by a source in the body of the article. There are multiple issues with LF's edits, GWAR, Edit war, Spamming etc... and of course, Freshacconcci doesn't have anything to say about these issues because that it would be admitting that edit was wrong.

Concerning the comment for ownership on SATB-related articles, one has to look at the history of this article here to see that this doesn't stand. Indeed, three users have already rejected LF's edits for edit war, Gwar (User:Greg Fasolino also shares this opinion), etc. What LF is doing is wp:PUSH and wp:DISRUPT. This doesn't have to be encouraged. Carliertwo (talk) 20:26, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

This is my exact response to you from our conversation on my talk page. As you've added this after my response, I can only assume you did not read it there: "You are free to remove those two genres as unsupported. I don't even agree with them. I don't do a great deal of editing these days, so I'm not going through every Beatle song article to make sure the genres are sourced. I only mentioned the Beatles as I'm familiar with the issue of genre warring and I find it silly when people add absurd genres to them based solely on their own opinions. My only concern was with the Dear Prudence article because that is the one I saw. I'm not aware of nor interested in the battle between you and Lachlan Foley. That will be resolved at ANI. Since I was mentioned at ANI, I responded, explaining my edits, as I saw them, to maintain WP:V/WP:RS. If you were concerned about Lachlan Foley's edits, I don't think re-adding unsourced content is the answer. And please use the preview button before saving on my talk page. It's annoying to have repeated new message tags for the same comment." That's all. I think I've said all I can based on my involvement. freshacconci talk to me 20:31, 8 July 2015.

• I don't see a problem so huge that it needs a topic ban to solve it. Lachlan Foley is trying to get a project-wide handle on genre warring by others, which is commendable, but it appears he is taking part in some genre warring himself, at some of the music articles. I think the effort is net positive. For the negative bits, perhaps it's enough to slow him down, to set a one revert per day (1RR) limit with substantial talk page discussion required from Lachlan Foley before any further revert. Binksternet (talk) 00:05, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

What is going to happen if that Dan56 and many other users including me are going to check out LF's contributions and as soon as he does wp:disruptive editing which is always what he does, one will undo his work. This is going to become our new hobby and yours. Carliertwo (talk) 00:55, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Call me cynical, but I've seen in the past when other genre warriors mask the edits they genuinely care about (POV-based genre revisions) with a multitude of maintenance and generic revisions. I'm sure there's a term for that also... Dan56 (talk) 02:01, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Foley has been a real problem and refuses to listen to other points of view other than his very personal one. He adds little to any articles we work on other than to toy with the genres and infobox style. These are NOT cases where he is removing unusual, extraneous, unique genres from the infobox, that would require specific reference (and yes, refs should stay out of the infobox whenever humanly possible....all it takes is some care in writing the article to include this, to keep the infobox uncluttered, as Wiki prefers...but I digress). What he is doing is insisting that basic genre of the BAND cannot be used, so as others noted, is leaving dozens and dozens of articles on releases, without any genre noted at all. For example, since someone above mentioned the Beatles, simply calling it "rock" is general enough, since the band WAS a rock band, that every song, single and album by them doesn't have to be exhaustively described and reffed as "rock." Does it? I've been editing here for many years and have never seen this until Lachlan got it into his head to do this. Siouxsie and the Banshees are a post-punk band. They were a founder of the genre. Its enough to call them a post-punk band in the article and ref that if need be, but that's not good enough for him. It's very, VERY disruptive and he's been doing stuff liek this over and over, no matter how many times he is banned. Greg Fasolino (talk) 00:07, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I hope this is taken seriously and the block proposal below is enacted quickly. Foley's genre warring spree is continuing with no signs of stopping and it is exhausting to try and fix it all. Greg Fasolino (talk) 04:59, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

What say you @Malmsimp: to the proposal below? Dan56 (talk) 13:29, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: Two-week block

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It seems clear from his edit history and from most of the reports of those above and at the previous ANI that Lachlan Foley is continuing what he was previously blocked for one week (his second block in three months) for: making unilateral changes to, and edit-warring over, infobox genres rather than seeking consensus. I propose an escalation to at least a two-week block, until he learns and understands how to appropriately collaborate on Misplaced Pages. Softlavender (talk)

• Support, as proposer. Softlavender (talk) 00:21, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support - It will take hours of manpower to revise these edits, which is why at the very least, two-weeks is appropriate. Considering these type of edits are 90% of the editor's activity, I wonder if this will have any affect. If it were to continue afterwards, then the block may need to go months or a possible indef.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:44, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support - per above Dan56 (talk) 02:28, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support - per above. Foley is incredibly disruptive and persistent and as noted above, causes an enormous amount of wasted time trying to fix his constant idiosyncratic edit-warring. Greg Fasolino (talk) 23:57, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support as per the above. Dan arndt (talk) 06:13, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

User's continued ignorance of warnings and website policies

Felipeedit (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has continued to ignore warnings given by myself, Widr, Mburrell and KrakatoaKatie concerning their disruptive editing time and time again. They've continued to remove reliable sources for those of blog-like websites and continued addition of original research to several music-related articles. User has a long-standing history of disruptive editing, and is also a sock-puppet account. It seems to me that the user is not here to edit in a cohesive, collaborative way, and instead is editing for their own personal beliefs. User also refuses to talk with other editors, instead deciding to continue on with their pattern of disruptive edits. The latest string of disruptiveness is happening at List of 2015 albums where (s)he continues to remove valid sources (ex: Billboard, Herald Sun) and replaces them with blog-like websites which have been deemed unreliable (ex: Ultimate Music). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Livelikemusic (talk • contribs) 00:55, 6 July 2015(UTC)

Definitely time for another block per WP:IDHT. Snuggums (talk / edits) 02:00, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

A topic ban might be a better solution than blocking, which seems to escape because of backlogs at AIV. I'd really like to hear what he has to say, but unfortunately he doesn't seem to say anything to anyone anywhere. Regardless, this disruption needs to stop. KrakatoaKatie 02:45, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

I find it very unlikely that the user would abide by a topic ban based on previous history. Snuggums (talk / edits) 13:01, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Something must be done, as the user is continuing to add blog-like websites as "sources" on the page and others. It's clear they're unable to handle editing on Misplaced Pages is proper ways. livelikemusic 21:41, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

IF user is sockpuppet, of whom? (please ping reply)Pincrete (talk) 08:22, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

The most disruptive thing is that the editor doesn't communicate. Their edits are not AIV material, since they are not vandalism (they do make valid edits too) and I can't see the user acting in bad faith. I get the feeling that they either don't understand RS policies or simply don't care. Probably latter, considering how many "final warnings" they have received. If it is a competence issue, I doubt that bans would make any difference. Widr (talk) 19:01, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I find Felipeedit's most recent edit disturbing. I dunno if it's "bad faith" or "good faith", but it's the unexplained removal of sourced content with zero edit summary. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:59, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Update: FWIW, Felipeedit has now contacted several editors on their Talk pages about this, and I've left them a note on their own Talk page. So this is moving closer to a potential resolution... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:28, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

I fail to see how it's leading to resolution; they've failed to communicate with any editor, until days following the opening of this report. And even following your note, they still do not add edit summaries, and their past behaviors lead me to believe that no resolution may come. livelikemusic 16:54, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

• Pinging Widr, Mburrell and KrakatoaKatie, since the OP attempted pings but did not sign their OP, hence the pings didn't work. (Pings only work when the user types four tildes when posted.) BTW, I am uninvolved in this matter.Softlavender (talk) 23:30, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I have never found Felipeedit to be editing in bad faith. Felipeedit poorly uses citation conventions as laid out by Misplaced Pages, and shows an unwillingness to improve his/their citation skill set, but the information that is posted is always with the intent to improve the article. By using blogs Felipeedit shows a lack of understanding about what constitutes reliable information. However, many editors do the same thing. I have assigned myself the task of cleaning up a particular series of articles, the most active currently being List of 2015 albums, which means I try to clean up on hyperlinks, citations and notability. I welcome any editor who makes an attempt to improve the articles, even those who overwrite headers instead of using the appropriate format, because those editors are all trying to improve the articles. I have less patience with those who write in the Talk page asking for someone else to do the work.

With Felipeedit, sometimes I have to reject the changes due to lack of an appropriate citation, or move the addition to a new date, but I have never seen a malicious or vanity edit by the user. If the administration board wishes to censor the user until they learn to follow the wiki-rules, I cannot object, but so many users don't understand how to edit that this seems more like frustration that a regular user won't learn how to play by the rules. Mburrell (talk) 07:50, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• I think this discussion should be closed, with no action taken. We are dealing with good faith editor who is still learning the ropes. There is no need to punish anyone here. Widr (talk) 06:05, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Concerns about the behavior of User:HughD

I am opening this thread to seek guidance on how to handle the increasingly un-civil behavior of another editor, HughD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), towards me and others (including DaltonCastle, Comatmebro, Capitalismojo, Arthur Rubin, and One15969). This editor, myself, and a number of other editors have been involved in a series of content disputes at Americans for Prosperity. HughD has been blocked several times in the past few months for edit warring on that article. He has recently escalated a campaign of personal attacks against me and others. Without providing diffs, he has accused me of "whitewashing" and "section blanking." His behavior is contributing to an increasingly toxic editing environment. His extraordinarily condescending talk page comments are not conducive to a collaborative editing environment. Last time he was blocked for edit warring, the blocking admin wrote: "This is getting out of hand; if you continue editing in this manner, you may face a topic ban or indefinite block. Please reconsider your behavior before that becomes necessary" . I have asked HughD a number of times (most recently, here ) to discuss content over contributors to no avail. Some recent examples of uncivil remarks/personal attacks include:

• "You refuse to discuss and egg on our colleagues to refuse to discuss...I think you think you know better than our pillars." (No examples of my alleged refusal to discuss, or egging on of other editors are given. I find the accusation of refusing to discuss odd given the dozens of talk page edits I've made on the article in question)

• "It is quite telling to me that you comment on an article talk page in an attempt to stave off productive talk page discussion."

• "We are still struggling on this talk page against your stubborn insistence, in the face of ample patient explications of policy, that you be allowed to serve as gate-keeper for what reliable sources have to say about the subject of this article. Please stop using consensus as your cudgel, it is long overdue for you to embrace our neutrality pillar."

• "I agree this edit is a good representative of the attempted whitewash by a small group of editors, generously, deficient in their understanding of our neutrality pillar, less generously, pointed...Where is the discussion, oh brave consensus champion? Fully understanding his preference is not supported by policy, this editor hid behind bold, deleting content and references without discussion, flying under the banner of consensus but declining to walk the walk."

• "In arguing against an editor instead of content, my colleague demonstrates an embarrassing lack of self-awareness of the paucity of his position...a small group of editors decided an incomplete article is preferred to a good article, and an entirely uninteresting attempt by a local consensus to triumph over our neutrality pillar, aimed at excluding neutral content and reliable sources deemed unflattering, a sad, completely avoidable debate, and absolutely nothing our encyclopedia has not seen over and over, as less experienced editors struggle with a full comprehension of due weight as relative to reliable sources. Please join us in the editor education effort, as uninteresting as it is, it is the heavy lifting of collaborative writing. "

• "Any competent editor would anticipate some of these edits might be considered controversial."

• "Are you pretending you do not understand NPOV, or are you pretending RS does not say what it says?"

• "This comment very clearly demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of our pillar of neutrality. This is a rookie misconception of WP:DUE not usually associated with experienced editors such as yourself. We sometimes find this type of misapplication of WP:DUE advanced by pointy editors."

• "You have taken your first, small step to understanding NPOV!"

• "I'm sorry I perceive your editorial collaboration as cowardly in that I thought mistakenly that you support undiscussed section blanking whilst preaching the gospel of consensus, I see now that this perception could not be more wrong."

• "It is cowardly. It is getting your way while avoiding the heavy lifting of collaborating within policy and guideline. Own it."

• "Mr. Courageous Wrapped in the Flag of Consensus Hero."

• "Of course any editor with a strong commitment to consensus would seek consensus on section blanking. It should be a simple matter to direct readers of this talk page to the talk page discussion of section blanking... because you are not hypocrites."

I would like guidance on how to handle this user's increasingly hostile and unproductive comments. I want to ensure this user is WP:HERE to build an encyclopedia and not to continue posting snarky, incendiary talk page comments. Thank you. Champaign Supernova (talk) 03:47, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Boomerang

• Support boomerang on Champaign Supernova and DaltonCastle for deliberately targeting HughD and turning a content dispute into a behavioral dispute by misrepresenting the actual dispute under discussion, portraying HughD as the problem (when in fact the problem is biased editing by the above editors), and taking Hugh's quotes from talk pages out of context to misrepresent his position and attitude. The above editors seem to be working overtime to remove any reliable source mentions of the primary role the Koch brothers have in the above articles. This is a violation of basic policies regarding content, and their railroading of HughD is an attempt to distract from the actual problem at hand. Viriditas (talk) 04:34, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Would you mind providing diffs of me engaging in "biased editing" and "working overtime to remove any reliable source mentions of the primary role the Koch brothers have in the above articles"? There have undoubtedly been a number of content disputes on the article's talk page, but perhaps you are mistaking me with another editor(s)? Earlier today I made this edit to the talk page "This article has ebbed and flowed between 'washes,' both black and white. Obviously this article should include some discussion of the Kochs. However, the current article serves as a WP:COATRACK with too many intricate funding details per WP:DUE. There must be a middle ground..." Champaign Supernova (talk) 04:39, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

And speaking of boomerangs, Viriditas, maybe don't call other editors "trolls"? Your entirely unprovoked rage-spiral at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Organized Labour looks a lot like Misplaced Pages:WikiBullying to me. Champaign Supernova (talk) 04:52, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Ive made zero changes on the page since I was told to avoid edit-warring. I havent edited it in weeks. I have only noticed the changes made by Hugh. Viriditas is rather new to the page. I can assure you that Hugh was not improving the page. DaltonCastle (talk) 04:53, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

After all the chest thumping and bluster, neither of you can point to a single, solitary diff showing a problem with HughD that requires admin intervention. Instead, the diffs show HughD calling out other editors on their policy violations, quite the opposite of what you intended to portray. If this isn't a classic case for a boomerang, then I don't know what is. This is an attempt to silence the other side in a content dispute, and what we have here are trumped up charges with no basis in reality. Viriditas (talk) 05:22, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me for jumping in, however, I feel that I have also been affected by HughD's actions in regards to the AFP talk page, as well as DaltonCastle and Champaign Supernova have been. I'm sure you are aware, Viriditas, of the simple distinction between "calling out other editors on their policy violations" and personally attacking them as being "rookies" and "cowards." There are polite and professional ways to discuss policy violations without offending users, and HughD has simply not been successful at this. Thank you. Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 16:35, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for the diffs showing my apparent "biased editing" and "working overtime to remove any reliable source mentions of the primary role the Koch brothers have in the above articles" that you accused me of. Champaign Supernova (talk) 16:09, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Huh? Perhaps you missed the diffs I placed above?

DaltonCastle (talk) 05:36, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Like I said, neither of you can point to a single, solitary diff indicating a need for admin intervention. No matter how many times you spam the same diffs over and over again, you cannot expect reasonable people to be fooled by this transparent attempt to fling mud, hoping something will stick to Hugh. Again, no evidence of wrongdoing by HughD, but loads upon loads of evidence against his accusers, who appear to be violating in NPOV in articles about the role of the Koch brothers. You are clearly abusing the administrative reporting process to try and get your critics disciplined in the hopes that nobody will actually notice that you've misrepresented the evidence against HughD. Sorry to disappoint you, but there are still a few of us left who are aware of your shenanigans and know exactly what is going on here. Viriditas (talk) 06:00, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Reject this claim. I took a few weeks off, and I return to this article to find that HughD has unfortunately been baited into making some unfortunate personal remarks about two or three editors that have been sniping at him for quite some time. In my early interaction with HughD, before I took a slight absence from this project, I found him extremely polite (sometimes obsequiously so), and I believe any fallback from his previous often-unctuous persona was due entirely to the hammering he received from those opposed to his rather perceptive edits. There is just no reason for this editor to be raked over the coals as this "incident" is doing right now. I believe that HughD's recent failings can be simply repaired by a vow that he will no longer engage in any kind of direct chit-chat with any other editor on the Talk Page of this article, or in the Edit Summary. (In other words, never use the word "you": On a Talk Page a good editor should just forget that the second-person singular exists.) Any administrator reading this might just wrap up the discussion with an admonition to all concerned to WP:Assume good faith and get on with improving the article. Sincerely, BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 06:17, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

That is an excellent suggestion ("I believe that HughD's recent failings can be simply repaired by a vow that he will no longer engage in any kind of direct chit-chat with any other editor on the Talk Page of this article, or in the Edit Summary.") That is the type of remedy I'm looking for. Quite simply, I'm tired of being on the receiving end of condescending, snarky unconstructive comments, and I'm tired of being looped in with other editors with whom Hugh has a problem, and of being accused of things I had no part in, like "section blanking." Champaign Supernova (talk) 15:55, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Seems a reasonable start. It would be helpful if Viriditas took the same pledge. It might be adequate to allow the article to attain some semblance of WP:NPOV. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:12, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of making this incredibly long post readable, remotely. I have no comment on the matter at hand, just making it easier for admins and editors. DaltonCastle would be well reminded that excessive lists of diffs may not actually serve the purpose intended. Blackmane (talk) 06:45, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I apologize for the jumble. I had hoped to get my points across but totally understand I failed to meet TLDR. I'll be better about this in the future. DaltonCastle (talk) 15:36, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I looked at a few of the supposed POV diffs and didn't see obvious problems (stuff seemed to be sourced and matter-of-factly written). I did notice a couple looked very similar to each other, i.e. at least one was a revert. No opinion at all about surrounding conduct allegations that I haven't tried at all to examine--it's late here. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 08:13, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, DaltonCastle's homework assignment today is to read WP:TLDR. I see good faith disagreements, not any incivility. Reading the talk page, it is clear that HughD disagrees with the consensus on most issues, and is right on a few issues. The correct way to proceed when you think the local consensus is wrong, is to open an RfC. And at some point, you need to accept the consensus and drop the WP:STICK. Kingsindian ♝♚ 08:31, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

understood. I do apologize for that jumble. DaltonCastle (talk) 15:26, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

This is a content dispute

There is a political faction on Misplaced Pages that wants to demonize the Koch brothers wherever possible, while we make no mention on our Rockefeller Foundation page of the Rockefeller Brothers bankrolling Obama's nuclear deal with Iran, just to pick an obvious example.

Take a look at our pages for the top political donors listed by opensecrets.org, and see how many of them contain the kind of criticism that is being pushed into anything Koch-related:

 Top Organization Contributors

 RANK _____________ Name _________________________ Total _____ %Dem. _ %Rep.

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------

 1 Service Employees International Union ----- $222,434,657 -- 99% --- 1%

 2 ActBlue ----------------------------------- $160,395,135 - 100% --- 0%

 3 American Fedn of St/Cnty/Munic Employees -- $93,830,657 --- 99% --- 1%

 4 National Education Assn ------------------- $92,972,656 --- 97% --- 4%

 5 Fahr LLC ---------------------------------- $75,289,659 -- 100% --- 0%

 6 American Federation of Teachers ----------- $69,757,113 -- 100% --- 1%

 7 Las Vegas Sands --------------------------- $69,440,942 ---- 0% - 100%

 8 National Assn of Realtors ----------------- $68,683,359 --- 49% -- 52%

 9 Carpenters & Joiners Union ---------------- $67,778,534 --- 94% --- 7%

 10 Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers --- $63,572,836 --- 99% --- 2%

 11 United Food & Commercial Workers Union --- $63,229,927 -- 100% --- 1%

 12 AT&T Inc --------------------------------- $61,004,110 --- 42% -- 58%

 13 Laborers Union --------------------------- $57,644,241 --- 94% --- 6%

 14 Perry Homes ------------------------------ $55,482,749 ---- 0% - 100%

 15 Goldman Sachs ---------------------------- $52,230,718 --- 54% -- 47%

 Source: 

It simply isn't very notable that billionaires spend millions of dollars supporting political causes that they like -- unless the billionaires' last name is Koch, then suddenly it becomes the most important fact about them.

BTW, if you are wondering where the Koch Brothers are on this list, At $28,572,742, they are Number 48.

Just to be complete, here are some figures for dark money:

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2013/11/liberal-dark-money-dominating-2014-elections/

Misplaced Pages should give the same WP:WEIGHT to donations and criticisms of same no matter which side they support.

This is a content dispute, and those involved should go to WP:DRR if they cannot resolve the dispute on the article talk page. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:18, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

While I am not up to speed on the issues listed above, this comment caught my eye - mainly because it seems to be totally and completely irrelevant. If this were AFD, I'd link WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Just because other organizations/individuals give more money doesn't mean that the donations of the individuals in question are not relevant to their articles. Especially if there are proportionally more sources discussing their donations than the ones you list. I don't edit in this area much, but it seems to be that $28 Million is a pretty significant number, yes? UltraExactZZ ~ Did 14:15, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

There are content disputes on this article, but that's not why I opened this thread. I came here to seek help with negative user conduct directed toward me. I'm focused on the behavior issue. Does anyone have recommendations on how to handle that aspect? Thanks you. Champaign Supernova (talk) 15:59, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely this is a content dispute and shouldn't be at this board. Civility is not obsequious politeness. HughD has indeed been blocked once or twice but this noticeboard should be used if he returns to edit warring. I think he is way too snarky when calling out logical errors to make rapid progress in disputes, but I will settle for slower progress. But it is not reasonable to infer from the diffs in context that he has erred so far from civility as to be routinely making personal attacks (or other incivilities) and thus requiring administrator intervention. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 18:04, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

There is a content dispute here; however, HughD has never accepted consensus except when it can be interpreted to agree with his POV. When it cannot be, he finds another noticeboard to seek "consensus". Few of his proposed edits are unrepresentative of the source, which is often reliable; but he includes only statements from a particular viewpoint, and adds more of them than are warranted. I cannot give a specific example of "cherry-picking" except his removal of third-party approval of "secrecy" of donor lists, but the entire funding and transparency sections are much too long with respect to the weight given in reliable sources. Even that would be a content dispute, except for the edit warring and his refusal to understand that his stated interpretation of guidelines can be wrong. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:01, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Please provide a single diff supporting any or all of your allegations. Viriditas (talk) 00:53, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

My previous comment seems to have been misplaced. I do much of my editing on a smartphone, and cannot easily copy diffs into my text. However, I might be more easily convinced that Hugh is not being intentionally disruptive if someone could point out a single edit which could be considered "pro-Koch". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that would be interesting. He has posted here that he views AFP as "a key player in the organized, corporate-funded suppression of unions in the US" and here that "I would say AFP has done more to raise the avg temp of our planet than Watts ever will" The attempts (here's another ) to convince members of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Environment/Climate change task force and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Organized Labour to adopt the article seem like an attempt to recruit like-minded editors to edit the page in a certain way, AKA Misplaced Pages:Canvassing. Champaign Supernova (talk) 01:51, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Out of context, those quotes look like canvassing. In context, they emerged in longer, more neutral, discussions, to increase awareness among editors interested in a topic. One sentence at the climate change task force talk page displays HughD's unfortunate tendency toward polemic in talk pages. Collaboration is always going to be difficult on articles about political 501(c)(4) organizations (Dark money), but I don't see a pattern, or an individual diff, from any of the 3 named editors (HughD, Champaign Supernova, Dalton Castle) that crosses any line that requires administrator involvement. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 09:52, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

HughD's behavior

I was "pinged" about this discussion when it was first opened, and have given some thought to responding here in the intervening days, not least of which was due to HughD's seeming targeting of those who disagree with him. While HughD's behavior is based on a content dispute, it has led to inappropriate behavior by HughD. I'll try to keep it brief; while the length and breadth of HughD's behavior makes that difficult, I'll try to summarize below.

Here are the actions which HughD has directed at me:

On 6/15 this notice. The DS notice on the talkpage was put there by HughD, not an admin. This was done so that Hugh could then post the DS warnings on the talkpages of editors who were in disagreement with him. This is a course of action I've actually never seen attempted before.

On 6/18, he posted this incorrect notice, in violation of ANI requirements. The result of that ANI discussion was no action against me.

On 6/29, he posted this (unsigned). The result of that posting was no action against me.

Not satisfied with that result, HughD then posted this notice on 6/30, which again resulted in no action against me. However, while it was still on-going, Hugh posted this notice on 7/1.

During the last week or so of June, Hugh filed the following:

1. Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Onel5969 repeated removal of WikiProject talk page banner
2. a link to HughD's previous ANI report filing
3. Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Onel5969 reported by User:HughD .28Result: Page restriction applied.29
4. Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Koch Industries brief, in-text description in Americans for Prosperity

In addition, he has opened numerous discussions regarding his viewpoint on the article talkpage in the last two months (a very nice recap can be found Talk:Americans for Prosperity#NPOV issue HERE on the talkpage - the response by Champaigne Supernova. Every one of which consensus has been against, e.g. over inclusion of Koch Brothers, too much detail on funding, and most specifically, NPOV. Even after consensus has been reached on the NPOV issue, he then tagged the article for an NPOV issue. After consensus. I think Hugh confuses consensus with unanimity.

His disruptive behavior goes back to at least 2012, when this occurred:

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive195#User:HughD reported by --Demiurge1000 (talk) (Result: Final warning issued) 09/12 - where he vowed to "never edit war again"

I didn't do a search on the intervening years. But in the last 3 months, he's been involved in numerous actions, and been blocked 4 times:

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive278#User:HughD reported by User:Jytdog (Result: Blocked) April 2015

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive282#User:DaltonCastle reported by User:HughD (Result: Blocked) May 2015 - Even here, EdJohnston wrote, "HughD doesn't come out of this dispute looking good. Articles on American politics can be extremely divisive and they have used up a lot of Arbcom's time. Try to be part of the solution rather than the problem."

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive284#User:DaltonCastle reported by User:HughD (Result: Both blocked 48 hours)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive285#User:HughD reported by User:Comatmebro (Result: Blocked 4 days)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive274#User:HughD reported by User:Champaign Supernova (Result: No action) The only reason he was not blocked was he apologized, and the admin accepted that.

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive271#User:Safehaven86 reported by User:HughD (Result: Referred to ANI) see the end of that thread.

I think HughD has displayed a pattern of behavior which is not conducive to the health of Misplaced Pages. Over the last two-three months, he has consistently failed to adhere to consensus reached on talk pages, he's been involved in WP:SOAPBOX, WP:ADVOCACY, and WP:COATRACK and WP:FORUMSHOP (I think he's up to posting on 8-9 different venues in an attempt to get someone to agree with him: Edit Warring noticeboard; ANI; NPOV board; Reliable sources; 2 project talk pages; the AfP talkpage; and the Wikiproject talkpage). This forum shopping is beginning to bear fruit, since several of the editors now active on the talk page have been recruited from those other forums. Each of those actions, in and of itself is fine. But combined they show a pattern. And it's not a pattern of consensus-building and compromise. During one of HughD's attacks on me, an admin, Monty845, suggested I might take it up at WP:AE, but that did not seem to be an appropriate forum, or at least I couldn't see how it applied, but Monty is more experienced than I am. Not sure what, if anything can be done, but this is getting tiresome at this point. I would suggest at least a WP:TOPICBAN for HughD on this article and all Koch-related articles. Thanks for your time. Onel5969 12:45, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment and participation, Onel5969. This supposed "content dispute" has brought up multiple issues regarding HughD's behavior. When it comes to consensus, he ignores it. He is not helpful nor friendly when it comes to understanding differences. I have only received negative comments from HughD, some of which have attacked me personally as a user. There are ways to discuss content in a friendly manner -- and honestly I am not sure if HughD is capable of this at this point in time. I would have to agree with everything the above user has stated, as well as the statement "I would suggest at least a WP:TOPICBAN for HughD on this article and all Koch-related articles." Cheers. Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 15:27, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

All of the evidence and discussion in this thread indicates a content dispute between involved parties who have been editing in this area. There is no good evidence supporting a topic ban of any kind, at least one that would impact HughD's editing. When asked to provide a single diff supporting their contention, not a single editor can do so. Instead, we are subject to long, off-topic screeds by editors who have been involved on the other side of the content dispute, links to ancient disputes, requests to prove negatives and other fallacious arguments. In conclusion, no diffs supporting a topic ban, just mud flinging. On the other hand, I would certainly support a topic ban on the editors listed above who have been repeatedly caught whitewashing and violating NPOV in the Koch-related area, and who have devoted an enormous amount of time and energy into railroading one of their few critics who has pointed to their problematic edits. Viriditas (talk) 20:20, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

He seems to refuse to accept consensus and uses boards and relentless RfC's and tags to assert his views. The current dispute centers on building a COATRACK into . The AE request against Arthur Ruben appears retaliatory and forum shopping. AR doesn't appear to have contributed here but one forum wasn't enough. We how have a dubious assertion about the TeaParty case at AE (which is only plausible if that article becomes a COATRACK). And the 4th version of an attempt to add material that has been rejected multiple times. When new edits are rejected, we call the articles version "consensus" and HughD appears to ignore this. --DHeyward (talk) 05:39, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Wait, are you suggesting that the Americans for Prosperity article is not within the scope of the Tea Party case? That's clearly incorrect, as anyone who has taken even a cursory glance at reliable sources on the subject can clearly see. I can cite a lot of high-quality evidence to back that up, but it might be simpler and easier if we just agree to call a spade a spade here. Fyddlestix (talk) 16:42, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Notice: On Arbitration Enforcement board as well

A filing by HughD against Arthur Rubin on the Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard is running in parallel with this discussion. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Arthur Rubin.

This does somewhat complicate ANI responses but admins and editors should feel free to review or participate in both. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:48, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't see much participation here by Arthur Rubin. The material that HughD argues should be included is outlined extensively here and in the other forum and an RfC on the talk page (4th time to be discussed). Three fora seeking help with a minority viewpoint seems a bit much. --DHeyward (talk) 05:43, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

There is an issue here (it's NPOV, not HughD)

Cross-posting my analysis of the situation from AE:

I know we're supposed to be focusing on conduct rather than content here, but I think it's very important to note that the preponderance of reliable sources very clearly support Hugh's "side" in the content dispute that prompted both this post and the one at AE.

The dispute is over the extent to which the article should discuss the financial and other connections between the Koch brothers and Americans for Prosperity (AFP), and, to a lesser extent, the extent to which AFP should be portrayed as a "Tea Party" group. (DHeyward, for example, has denied that this connection can be made at all, and would be COATRACK:). To illustrate that the sources are clearly and unquestionably on HughD's side here, take a look at the version of the page that Arthur Rubin appears to have been happy with (ie, that he removed the NPOV tag on:) Note that the name "Koch" appears in the article text exactly once - simply to note that David Koch chairs the AFP Foundation - but appears twenty-five times just in the titles of the references. Compare that to how the preponderance of reliable sources listed by Aquillion here place the relationship between AFP and the Koch's front-and-center in their coverage. Also compare it to how reliable, academic sources treat the subject. (those are just some examples, I could cite a lot more if needed).

HughD has been the most vocal voice on the article's talk page asserting that the article needs to acknowledge and discuss AFP's connection to the Koch brothers in depth. He has often been outnumbered, and he has quite understandably gotten frustrated at times. Just as understandably, the people arguing with him have gotten frustrated with his persistence. There have been regretable statements made on both sides, but honestly, I don't think anyone's behavior or the article rises to the level of requiring admin or AE sanction -- although a warning to some about battleground behavior and a reminder of what NPOV entails ) might be in order for some of those involved.

Bottom line: HughD should not be sanctioned for being a lone dissenting voice against a (claimed) local consensus which was incorrect and inconsistent with NPOV. I also hardly think Arthur deserves sanction for adding or removing a NPOV tag (after all, the NPOV of the article was, and is, in dispute). Everyone involved just needs to take a few deep breaths, relax, and refocus on what RS actually say. More generally, the article desperately needs more eyes/input to ensure that NPOV is maintained. Fyddlestix (talk) 20:17, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

CFCF Not Here on E-cigs

CFCF(User talk:CFCF, CFCF) Has recently made several controversial edits, reverts and moves on pages related to e-cigarettes whilst refusing to engage in consensus building. These pages are subject to General Sanctions

here he re-reverts material that was disputed back into the article despite discussion on the talk page relevant to it that he was not involved in claiming established consensus.

here he hatted a discussion relevant to that controversial material he had added in where he was being asked to justify the inclusion of some material but he did not engage in it.

here he accuses me and/or S Marshal of vandalism for removing content which did not have consensus for inclusion and was being discussed at the talk page when reverting & here he accuses me of vandalism again. (I freely admit here I was slow edit warring however it didn't come close to vandalism, it was a content dispute that I was handling badly and have been sanctioned for). I posted to his talk page to ask him not to accuse me of vandalism when I was not doing that

and here he 1 click archives it without response. I Reposted a request that he engage in discussion to build consensus

and here he 1 click archives without response

here he admits that he finds discussions to seek consensus unproductive and so reverts without contributing or considering them.

here he re-introduced a controversial claim with a long discussion on the talk page which had not found consensus and in which he had not participated.

here Despite an ongoing discussion which CFCF had not participated in at the talk page CFCF moved the article from Chemicals in Electronic Cigarette Aerosol to Electronic Cigarette Aerosol. here CFCF had added a "Redirect you may have meant" tag to Cigarette smoke with no discussion. It had been reverted and he re-introduced without taking it to the talk page.

here When I posted to his talk page about the above he 1click archived it immediately.

here The part about being designed to appeal to 11 year olds we had reached consensus to remove, the later sentences, Quack Guru had Boldly Added, S Marshal Reverted because it was controversial. CFCF re-introduced without discussion

I could go further but this is already long enough and covers just the last week.

I know this isn't a major issue but I feel CFCF has earned at the least warning in an area of general sanctions because this pattern of behaviour is not conducive to consensus building in a topic which, touch wood, has calmed down somewhat recently from a prior battleground and is in some ways being productively edited. I know S Marshall has been frustrated by some of CFCF's edits and they show that CFCF has little or no interest in working collaboratively in this topic area per WP:NOTHERE.SPACKlick (talk) 20:48, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

CFCF has made good edits to various e-cig pages. This should be closed immediately. QuackGuru (talk) 20:53, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

This looks very much like abusing process to attempt to gain an advantage in a content dispute. Admins take a bit of a dim view of that. Guy (Help!) 21:13, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I have no intention of gaining an advantage in a content dispute. My desire in this would be for CFCF to engage in the collaborative process so consensus can be reached on the disputed content but nobody can force that. The issue I have is that when discussion is on-going and the nuance of consensus is being reached, whether in the direction I initially wanted or not, CFCF makes driveby reverts without reference to that discussion or any of the consensus and kicks the process back a notch. Hence why I've asked for a warning or a prod and not any form of ban/block/Tban/Iban that would limit CFCF's contributions.SPACKlick (talk) 21:21, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

The e-cig pages have greatly improved as a direct result of CFCF's edits. That's what the evidence shows. QuackGuru (talk) 21:26, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I see nothing in CFCF's edits needing sanctions. I agree with Guy. Cloudjpk (talk) 21:50, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Guy. CFCF's edits seem quite reasonable. This appears to be a content dispute and not sanctionable. Ping me with {{u|Jim1138}} and sign "~~~~" or message me on my talk page. 03:56, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

The edits would be reasonable if they responded to consensus but CFCF actively ignores consensus, ignores ongoing discussions, When he adds information and is reverted he immediately reverts back and ignores all discussion about the inclusion. Whether or not the content of his edits is good, and I won't weigh in on that here because there is content dispute, the lack of collaborative effort is a clear example of NOTHERE. SPACKlick (talk) 08:54, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Once again I'd appreciate it if someone could restore order on that page. I certainly don't think all of CFCF's recent edits have been 100% helpful, but he's far from the only offender and what's actually needed is a large injection of clue.—S Marshall T/C 21:58, 7 July 2015 (UTC) Of Note CFCF again included without consensus. There is a discussion about this hatnote on the talk page. 4 editors see the hatnote as outside policy 1 has made an argument for it. CFCF claims to have made his point on the talk page. His one post on the talk page is No, you're wrong. WP:HATNOTE. How are these not WP:NOTHERE edits? SPACKlick (talk) 17:39, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I disagreed. See diff. QuackGuru (talk) 18:04, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• SPACKlick is pretty much a WP:SPA for e-cig topics per their contribs. The topic seems to draw such editors or turn otherwise useful editors astray. SPA warns about situations where there is "...evidence that a user is also editing to add promotional, advocative, or non-neutral approaches, or has a personal or emotional interest in the area of focus, possibly with limited interest in pure editing for its own sake....") On their userpage SPACKlick makes their advocacy position on e-cigs very clear (which is very "pro"): here. In my view SPACKlick should be trouted for bringing this groundless case, and should be warned to broaden their editing at WP, with a topicban per WP:NOTHERE, per SPA, riding on their failure to broaden their scope of editing. Jytdog (talk) 17:38, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Proposed Boomerang topic ban for SPACKlick

Per comment above by User:Jytdog, I propose a topic ban from the e-cig pages for User:SPACKlick. Cloudjpk (talk) 20:38, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

@Cloudjpg: Are you proposing a topicban for yourself too? Your edit count shows a "bizzarro-sock" of SPACKlick and not one with a longstanding edit history.--TMCk (talk) 22:53, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• This proposal is based on a fallacious and hypocritical comment by User:Jytdog, which itself seems a good justification for BOOMERANG. If SPACKlick can be considered a SPA, Jytdog should be as well.

Spacklick's top edited pages:

94 Electronic cigarette 56 Monty Hall problem 34 Roger Moore 28 List of Durham University people 26 Orthodox Presbyterian Church 25 Sean Connery 24 Electronic cigarette aerosol 24 Safety of electronic cigarettes 23 Top Gear (2002 TV series) 18 St Cuthbert's Society, Durham 17 George Lazenby 16 List of Old Boys of The Scots College (Sydney) 14 Zoe Quinn 11 Trial of Oscar Pistorius 11 College of St Hild and St Bede, Durham

Jytdog's:

675 Genetically modified food controversies 584 Monsanto 327 Genetically modified food 319 Glyphosate 220 Genetically modified crops 159 Genetically modified organism 155 Organic farming 139 GlaxoSmithKline 137 Electroconvulsive therapy 128 ZMapp 124 Organic food 108 A2 milk 99 Séralini affair 99 Novartis 98 Regulation of the release of genetically modified organisms

SPACKlick is surprisingly the only editor to speak out against CFCF's unsupportable redirect from "Electronic Cigarette Aerosol" to "Cigarette smoke". A read of the resulting talk page section (where QuackGuru seems to speak for CFCF, who is absent) should have uninvolved observers questioning why it is SPACKlick who is being portrayed as the problem. petrarchan47คุก 22:26, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Petra you are so dependable! As I wrote above, per contribs. The bulk of my editing on GMO stuff was mid-2012- mid-2013, with spikes when anti-GMO advocates come around, or back around as the case may be, and yes that has been an enormous amount of work. If you look through the past couple years, the edit count would look very different than the totals you present there.

Getting back to the topic, if you actually look at SPACKlick's contribs in the past year or so, he has indeed become pretty much a SPA for e-cigs; those articles cause people to obsess and e-cig topics keep causing trouble. My recommendation is above. Jytdog (talk) 23:52, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Of my last 500 edits, a quick and dirty analysis says that 60% are e-cigarette related (if there's a tool for better temporal analysis I'd appreciate the link), including talk page edits and user talk edits. but that may have missed some of them. If we go to the 500 edits before that, very few of them are e-cigarette related. It comes and it goes. And I won't deny e-cigarettes has been my focus recently, just s monty hall was for a while. I come and go from the project with certain dense posting periods. I still monitor a lot of RFC's and where I feel I can contribute, do so. I had hoped to get started on a long project in project tree of life but real life got in the way and another stellar editor had done the majority of the legwork prior to my return. I edit where my interest is at the time. E-cigs has been a focus for a long set of editing bursts because it still has major problems and I haven't yet found a tack that leads to productive improvement although progress has been made. SPACKlick (talk) 01:17, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

That User:SPACKlick finds the diffs listed concerning is I agree a concern in itself. Some time away from the article may due SPACKlick good. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:36, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Of note, In all but one of the diffs I've posted above I have attempted, however (un)successfuly, to point out that my issue isn't the content of the edit but the context of the edit being ignoring, over riding or avoiding discussion between editors attempting to hash out consensus. The one I don't point to avoiding ongoing discussions relating to consensus is where he avoided BRD on a potentially controversial addition by unreverting his own edit. I also pointed out that this wasn't a major issue but it is an issue of disengagement from the process and the sort of behaviour I thought the general sanctions were supposed to nip in the bud. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SPACKlick (talk • contribs) 21:42, 8 July 2015‎ (UTC)

• Comment. SPACKlick is well aware of the sanctions. Me thinks SPACKlick repeatedly deleted sourced text. See Talk:Electronic cigarette aerosol#Re introduction_again for the current discussion. He was warned by the admin User:Bishonen to stop making personal attacks. Back in April SPACKlick wrote: this previous section at the e-cig talk page: "It's almost like you're not competent to edit this page", "your ridiculous addition", "a ridiculously long caption", "it was pointy, tendentious or ownership", "you do not own this article", "You arrogantly inserted". In June SPACKlick wrote" "QuakGuru, whether or not particle size is medically relevant is OUTSIDE THE SCOPE of this article which is about the CHEMICALS WITHIN E-CIGARETTE VAPOUR. Particle size, is not relevant to what chemical a particle is. You're nuts" He was recently warned again about NPA. QuackGuru (talk) 19:09, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Quack talking about ownership: Me, I and myself. Cheers.--TMCk (talk) 19:35, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
    • You wrote in your edit summary "I'll promise you my friend, I will not cease in standing by your side in battle..." You wrote "I also shall not cease in doing so until you have learned and turned (until death, online or real, will takes us apart). QuackGuru (talk) 19:43, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
      • And as you can see I did hold my promise.--TMCk (talk) 19:53, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

General sanctions are failing

General sanctions on e-cigarettes aren't working because it's so hard to attract the attention of an uninvolved administrator. The only participant in this discussion who might remotely count as an "uninvolved administrator" is JzG and he's only contributed one sentence. Everyone else is divided along party lines. What's actually needed here is a referee; but I can fully understand why a previously uninvolved person would shy away from such an entrenched situation with such a lot of history.—S Marshall T/C 07:34, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

• Since this thread has attracted so little attention from uninvolved administrators, it should be archived without result.—S Marshall T/C 22:41, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
• Well, I can try to referee if you think it would help, but I strongly suspect that my long-standing support for WP:MEDRS and opposition to pro-CAM edits will not sit well with the group that makes up the pro-ecig side of this war. In the absence of uninvolved admins, and given the clear need for some firm action, I guess arbitration may be the only option. Guy (Help!) 14:28, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, I certainly do think it would help. It shouldn't be necessary to go to arbitration over this; that's like going to A&E with a hangnail. I don't think I could produce diffs that would be of much interest to arbcom.—S Marshall T/C 15:01, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I can also take a look, but I have some notifications and an Arbcom case evidence to do over the weekend, so if it can wait a couple of days for another set of eyes as well then that would help. Is it deteriorating notably fast? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:59, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
    • No, it isn't. I'm finding the situation's improving, probably thanks to the extra eyeballs on the subject. Thank you.—S Marshall T/C 00:18, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. User:Georgewilliamherbert, please review the current atmosphere at the e-cig pages. I am not aware of "the extra eyeballs on the subject".
• S Marshall is well aware of the sanctions. In your edit summary you wrote "tag-teaming". You claimed "Consensus can change, and it will. I learned this when I got broad consensus to change the first paragraph of this article in many ways, and then started an RfC to discover that changes in the population of this talk page meant my consensus was no longer there. Misplaced Pages's a waiting game, QG. A quick look at your block log tells me there are pretty good odds that you won't be active on this talk page forever, and when you're gone it will be possible to make the fixes you're preventing. Don't get me wrong, QG, I do think you're a net positive to Misplaced Pages despite the fact that I find you very frustrating to deal with. I've argued in many discussions before that you should not be blocked, just reined in. My views in that respect have not changed."
• S Marshall, so why do you want me "reined in"?
• Both SPACKlick and S Marshall deleted a 2014 MEDRS compliant review from the Addiction section recently. The 2014 review is relevant to the section, especially since it is concerning youth. QuackGuru (talk) 19:09, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

• I want you reined in because I'm a mean and nasty POV-pushing industry shill, of course!—S Marshall T/C 23:13, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

• Whew, glad we got that settled. <g> BMK (talk) 19:46, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Pretty sure E-cigs is going to need to go to ArbCom, since editors are reporting that GS are not working, and since there are or have been so many SPAs editing the e-cig articles. I propose that someone start to draft an ArbCom request proposal -- but it obviously shouldn't be drafted by QuackGuru or by one of the SPAs or virtual SPAs, past or present. I don't know that there is anyone editing the articles who is completely neutral about the topic, but perhaps Doc James might be willing to, as he has in the past edited on the subject, but has remained decidedly quiet when related subjects come up on ArbCom or ANI. If he or someone of his ilk would draft and post an ArbCom request, however brief, others could chime in on ArbCom with their opinions. Just a thought. Softlavender (talk) 00:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Will take a look in a two weeks as off to Wikimania. I am sure that some would view me as far from neutral. Especially those who continue send me hate mail regarding the topic. User:S Marshall has done some good work condensing the prose. QG adds generally well supported text. The discussion on the talk page get more snarky than it should be at times. Would be good if many of those involved would work more on other pages but of course we cannot mandate that. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:30, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

You're right. Someone reverting with a misleading editsummary to re-introduce utter unscientific fringe nonsense -- I sure don't have much (or any) confidence in them. Even less when the same supposed to be a scientist. But go for it anyways. It doesn't matter who is filing.--TMCk (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The discussion on the talk page showed the restored text is well sourced. For example, see Talk:Electronic_cigarette_aerosol#Re_introduction_again. QuackGuru (talk) 02:26, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Report on StanTheMan87 personal attacks

• StanTheMan87 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:36, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

The user recently behaved in an impolite manner toward me. I opposed a name change and when he saw my reasoning did not persuade him, he charged me with 'Pushing POV'. I told him that "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence" was regarded as personal attack. He had already said that Any attempt to counter this proposal will obviously be meant with the constant regurgitation of WP:POVTITLE" which was weird to me, because one may have a different opinion and it does not necessarily a sign of POV pushing. However, I tried to explain how I think about the issue and presented my own reasoning but he replied that he still could tell me that I had POV to push because of 1- My reasoning and 2- Because of the details on my user page. The second one seems like a racist accusation (refer to my user page please). I took another step and tried to further explain why I opposed the change, but he did not pay attention to my last warning on taking WP:PA seriously and said:"the current title is not precise. You are foolish to think otherwise." As, I had already asked him to avoid PA, I'm sending the report here.

Comment: Two other editors had discussed him about personal attacks and throwing insults (I'm not judging these two cases as I don't have enough materials to judge and just am commenting to let the admins know about the possible background of him). Mhhossein (talk) 01:26, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Commenting to point out this edit summary: Info-box is fucked. I cannot be bothered manually editing all the shit I added. Congratulations to user Anasaitis for fucking around with it, you absolute hero. . EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:53, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Comment: I don't see enough here to warrant action. Uncivil a few times recently? Sure. But I don't see this rising to the level where an Admin is going to act on anything... And EvergreenFir already previously warned StanTheMan87 about one of the instances of incivility. Unless StanTheMan87 keeps at it, I don't think anything is going to happen here. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:46, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Let me clear up one thing, the comment "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence was regarded as personal attack" is factually incorrect. It might be ad hominem, but not a personal attack. See Graham's hierarchy of disagreement, the gold standard around here. Single instances are generally overlooked, it takes a little heat sometimes. Ongoing ad hominem is disruptive, however, so action generally requires demonstrating a longer term pattern. I'm not saying he is right or should get off scot free, I'm just making sure you understand the standards here. The worst of it, isn't technically a personal attack, although it borders on it and is uncivil. He is being more than rude, but I think your bar is set a bit too high here, EvergreenFir. StanTheMan87 does need to back off, however, or he will be looking some kind of sanction, sooner rather than later. I'm about to call it a night, but wanted to get those points across. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 03:13, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Not the filer, but I agree Dennis Brown. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 16:41, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, adjusting to new glasses and just flubbed that up. Hard to read now that they letters are crisp ;) Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:10, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment:@Dennis Brown and IJBall: As I mentioned above, he keeps accusing for pushing my own POV while I'm trying to present my own reasoning using the sources. For instance, he accused me by saying "No, of course "Islamic State (IS)" is not a valid search keyword. Of course. Because it doesn't fit your with your POV, so of course it is invalid.". His tone is really bothering and I'm trying to handle the case. That's why I asked him in that thread to take PA cautions seriously. I'll be thankful to be cautioned if my discussion seems like pushing POVs. Mhhossein (talk) 13:23, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
  • He's only made a couple of edits since this report was filed, mainly image. These are difficult areas to judge POV on to people who aren't specialists in the areas. The diff you provided here, he is giving rational arguments for his position. Not saying they are right or wrong, but he isn't attacking and is providing a specific basis, which is something that editors decide, not admin. As for the rudeness, he does need to dial it back but I don't see anything in the last several days. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:04, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Dennis Brown. May be I have to be more patient. The problem is that he, like many other editors, don't focus on the subject and instead try to address the editors, which is not the goal of the discussion. His rudeness is not tolerated. Mhhossein (talk) 13:57, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

If "many other editors" find your person and inclinations to be the problem, could it be because there is something to it? Note that you are yourself "trying to address the editors" rather than the subject by bringing your dispute to this board.--Anders Feder (talk) 08:13, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Let's define those "many other editors"! Mhhossein (talk) 12:49, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: @Dennis Brown: I don't know what is regarded as personal attack if calling an editor a potato is not considered an attack. There he said:"Arguing with an an inanimate object like a potato could result in a better conclusion than arguing with you". How many times should he throw insults so that an action is made? Mhhossein (talk) 14:27, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Comment insult and the tendentious presentation of opinion as fact should not be tolerated on Misplaced Pages. GregKaye 05:32, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Dblama

• Dblama (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:19, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

This user originally came to my attention over at Wikimedia Commons after numerous copyright violations and sockpuppeteering. (The user is also using the accounts Durlavkt7, JasonStack43, PurNep – falsely claimed to have pending change reviewer privileges, SadiU7 and Snubssulky here on English Misplaced Pages.) I noticed that he falsely claimed to be an administrator and a bureaucrat (in addition to overstating his experience here by eight years) on his user page. When the message from User:220 of Borg about this went unanswered for three months, I decided to remove the false claims myself. The response was to replace my user talk page with "FUCK YOU LX!" and another fuck you on his own. I'd appreciate if an actual administrator could educate User:Dblama on appropriate ways of addressing other volunteers. Thanks, —LX (talk, contribs) 14:43, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

• Boy, between the fraudulent Admin/Bureaucrat claims, and the personal attack/violation of WP:TPO, I'm wondering if a block is in order here... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:22, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
• @LX: it looks like you forgot to notify Dblama about this discussion (see instructions at the top of this ANI page for details) – I have gone ahead and notified Dblama for you. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:35, 11 July 2015 (UTC) Ah, I see now that you did, just not with a {{ANI-notice}} template. Sorry! - My bad! --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:39, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

@LX: Thank you for bringing this up here. I should have followed it up myself. Indeed, that rude response is uncalled for. In addition to comments above, Dblama seems to be a bit of a SPA as a large proportion of their edits are to create/edit pages relating to a particular Nepalese family. Their move log may need reviewing too when the move rationale, which I mentioned to them on their talk page here back in April, includes "To make it easier for Nepalese national to find the page". 220 of 02:46, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

This guy is clearly not interested in encyclopedia work. I suggest an indef here (if he hasn't been blocked by the time I make this post) for both the master and the socks, with the socks having talk page access revoked if a Checkuser comes up Likely or better. —Jeremy v^_^v 04:37, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi+ and Alexikoua's behavior in Balkan-related articles

• Rolandi+ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Alexikoua (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Both of these editors have been duking it out in multiple Balkan-related articles. The Balkans are under discretionary sanctions as per WP:ARBMAC. Both users are aware of this: . Both users have been previously blocked for edit-warring, and are well aware of the rules there. Rolandi+ is just coming off of a block and Alexikoua has been blocked multiple times.

One of many examples of their warring is Nicholas Leonicus Thomaeus.

• Full or partial reverts from Rolandi+:
• Full or partial reverts from Alexikoua:

Other examples with some recent edit warring include:

• Illyrians
• Kara Mahmud Pasha
• Greater Albania

Both users have placed warnings on each others' talk pages but appear fairly oblivious that the warnings apply to themselves as well: Rolandi+ placing on Alexikoua: Alexikoua placing on Rolandi+:

Also note that Alexikoua went to several articles that Rolandi+ edited in a short period of time and reverted everything he did, which is possibly WP:HOUND. He clearly was singling out Rolandi+, at the very least: .

While both users are being fairly careful to avoid violating the 3RR, it is clear they they are engaging in disruptive behavior, and they're well aware of the rules given their respective block logs. It's getting to the point where a topic ban may be necessary. ~ Rob 16:13, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

On each case I initiate a discussion on the correspondent talkpage and I'm very carefull when to remove specific parts in case they are either poorly cited or not cited at all. For example in Nicholas Leonicus Thomaeus, I'm still waiting for Rolandi's talkpage participation but there is still no response ]. On the other hand Rolandi's talkpage is full of warnings from multiple users (I count at least 4). Also comments such a this one ] from a recent ani filled again him by another user, reveal an edit-warring nature.

About Rob's comments I have to add that my last blog was 2+ years ago (May '13), thus it's a bit unfair to neglect that fact, in addition that this is the first report against me from that time. Alexikoua (talk) 16:26, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

The OP paints a very simplistic picture, which shows sloppiness and a lack of understanding of the topic and issues involved. Rolandi+ is in conflict with multiple editors, due to his falsification of sources, dishonesty, and incivility. He has repeatedly falsified sources, edit-warred over unsourced material, made stuff up and refuses to get the point. At Illyrians, he has falsified a source that makes the opposite of the claim he is pushing in the article . He edit-warred over this, made accusations of sockpuppetry, and is extremely rude in the talkpage . He was blocked for edit-warring at Illyrians, and he is now resuming right where he left off , using low quality sources. This, after he was blocked 36 hours for breaching 3RR at two different articles in the same day . He is also falsifying sources at Vlachs , and edit-warring over there as well. Here he falsifies one source (the author states that the Italian census numbers are exaggerated, but he omits that and enters the number using Misplaced Pages's own voice) and removes another high quality source (Meyer) for no good reason, without even mentioning it in the edit summary. When he can't find even low quality sources to falsify, he just makes stuff up . When a fellow Albanian editor mildly criticized one of the highly nationalistic, low quality sources he tried to use, Rolandi removed that user's talkpage comments from the talkpage . To top it all off, he is extremely rude and refuses to get the point: (referring to Greek editors as "penguins") , (taunting a Serbian user about being bombed by NATO), , , , . Here is is taunting another user to "please" revert . It's really not hard to find diffs of this user's disruptive behavior. Just go to any talkpage he has participated and they as plentiful as fish in the sea. This user has exactly ZERO positive contributions to wikipedia, has major WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. His talkpage is nothing but a graveyard of warnings by multiple users of all kinds of backgrounds . Even in Japan-related topics he is making trouble , for which he was warned. Alexikoua has repeatedly tried to engage him in article talkpages and on his own talkpage, to no avail. It is impossible to reason with this user. He is here to here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS (Greek sources cannot be trusted because "it made genocide,killed and stole albanians") and nothing will get in the way of that. This is in stark contrast to Alexikoua, who has kept a clean record for the last two years now, has created dozens of articles and DYKs, and is always civil and amenable to reason in talkpage discussions. Athenean (talk) 18:09, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

This is an unfair report regarding Alexikoua. Rolandi+ has exhibited WP:BATTLE behaviour including removing a fellow-Albanian editor's comments for not agreeing with him for which he was subsequently warned on his talkpage by an admin. Here after his block for edit-warring expired he tells the blocking admin: Actually I have been busy for some days so the block wasn't any problem for me. He has also exhibited bravura when reported at 3RRN challenging me to report him even as he had two, yes two, 3RR reports pending against him at 3RRN. In addition his talkpage is full of warnings regarding his falsification of sources and other disruption. Alexikoua's edits are a factor of stability in the Balkans, a troubled area of Misplaced Pages. There is simply no comparison between the two editors. The OP is completely misguided in his unfair comments regarding Alexikoua. Δρ.Κ.  18:39, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi , There are many cases of edit warring between us.It's true!I hope this will not happen in the future. As for "Nicholas Leonicus Thomaeus" case I tried to explain him twice at his talk page that he couldn't delete others' edits and references only to add the greek hypothesis.It's normal to include all the hypothesis about Thomaeus' origin.Also he can't delete well-established informations that have been there since a long time. As for "Illyrians" case,I had corrected my edits.My last deleted edits made it clear that Illyrians may be the ancestors of Albanians.(I didn't make it a fact,just a hypothesis).Alexikoua thinks that the Albanian hypothesis doesn't need te be included there,but the Vlach hypothesis yes. As for "Greater Albania" I stoped my edit waring and I have discussed that with Athenean at my talk page.I will discuss that at the article's talkpage soon as I haven't enough time now. I hope that there will not be any need for this noticeboard in the future.However it is important the fact that Alexikoua has a habit to delete almost all my Albanian related edits within 24 hours.If you see my edit history,the majority of my edits have been deleted by Alexikoua within a short time.He doesn't try to talk to me or discuss together. In our recent edit warrings another user is included.Athenean has the same habit as Alexikoua to undo the majority of my edits. As I said ,we need to be more carefull in the future and stop edit warring.However,it is important for Alexikoua not to delete almost all my edits.If he thinks I have made disruptive edits in the future,he can try talking to me or to involve other users or an administrator for help. As for my past mistakes I have been blocked for 36 hours before some days so Athenean doesn't need to mention them here. I don't actually know why these three users contribute at the same pages at the same time.I think it is a kind of sockpuppetery or collaboration. Rolandi+ (talk) 19:01, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

As for Japan related article,the warning was a mistake.Go and ask that editor.It not the only time I got warnings that were a mistake.See my warnings history and the involved users' talk pages please . As for the Vlach case ,as you can see,I hadn't falsificated any reference,just go and see .The warning editor falsificated the references.This story is explained but Athenean doesn't mention this fact.As for Italian census case I explained to Athenean what I meant with that reference at my talk page.But Athenean doesn't mention my explanation because the only thing he wants is my block.As for "Baku spirit" case,why don't you go and se the KSFT's talk page.I suggest to these three users to open as many noticeboard cases as possible ,there is no problem for me. Rolandi+ (talk) 19:19, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

This case is only about me and Alexikoua.There was another ANI involving me before some days and these three editors commented against me.Isn't this a collaboration?You can easily note that there are many cases where these three users edit at the same pages at the same time .Isn't this some kind of strange collaboration or even sockpuppetery?Rolandi+ (talk) 19:41, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

The topics you are editing have been the target of sockpuppetry, edit-warring disruption, falsification of sources and personal attacks by editors advancing low quality, nationalist-based edits. You seem to be doing most of these things so don't complain when other editors clean up after you. Also if you have evidence of sockpuppetry don't try to weasel your insinuations into the discussion. Either open a sockpuppet investigation against the editors you suspect or stop your personal attacks. Δρ.Κ.  19:57, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

You are making personal attacks here,I am just defending myself.If you have sth against me,open another case.Also an unregistred user undid my edits at Thomaeus by claiming that my edits are " propaganda & false information".This is strange.He explains this by saying "(WP:V, WP:RS)and Jacques & 'scholars' from the Hoxha era are very unreliable sources".Who is this user in the reality?Strange.Rolandi+ (talk) 21:08, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

You are making personal attacks here,: Can you specify by giving a diff which part of my comments were a "personal attack"? Who is this user in the reality?Strange. Why are you asking me? If you have any questions about a user you can open an SPI to find out. Finally, do not ask other editors to intervene making false claims against editors who comment here because it is considered canvassing and uncivil. Δρ.Κ.  21:38, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Here's a simple fact: Alexikoua has reverted the edits of Rolandi+ repeatedly and across multiple pages in short periods of time. Edit-warring is not excused by correctness. That's the only additional thing I'll say. This statement is not influenced in anyway by Rolandi's comments on my talk page; I was watching this discussion already, and would have commented this way when I had returned no matter what. I do agree with the point about WP:CANVASS, though. ~ Rob 22:14, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

From what I can tell, Alexikoua has not exceeded 2 reverts in a 24 hour period in any article. This is in contrast to Rolandi who has breached 3RR at least twice in the last few days. You seem to be painting the users with the same brush. That is incorrect. There is one user who has made countless valuable contributions to Misplaced Pages, and one who hasn't. There is one user who has engaged in ethnic baiting, and one who hasn't. There is one user who falsifies sources, and one who hasn't. There is one user who has been blocked recently for multiple breaches of 3RR and one user who has maintained a spotless record for the last two years. Athenean (talk) 22:22, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Your accusations of WP:HOUND and excessive edit-warring against Alexikoua do not stand up to scrutiny. If I look at his contribs of the last 7 days (i.e. since Rolandi's block expired), he has reverted Rolandi a total of two times at Greater Albania, once at Illyrians, three times at Nicholas Leonicus Thomaeus, and once at Kara Mahmud Pasha. This is over a period of 7 days, and not taking into account that Rolandi was POV-pushing, falsifying sources, being incivil, and was reverted by several other users (because he was POV-pushing and falsifying source), not just Alexikoua. Athenean (talk) 22:32, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I had not seen the HOUND allegations of the OP against Alexikoua. That betrays a total lack of understanding of the MO of the SPAs and socks in this area of the Balkans. Once an SPA is bent on changing the nationality to Albanian of many historical figures they do it across multiple articles and they do it by falsifying sources and enforce it through edit-warring. To follow such an SPA through multiple articles to correct their falsification of sources is good and standard practice not WP:HOUND. I don't doubt the good intentions of the OP but they are severely misguided and betray a total ignorance of the operating methods of the SPAs in this subject area. I am also concerned that despite the available evidence of widespread disruption by the Rolandi+ SPA the OP seems bent on insisting on treating Alexikoua's proper edits as somehow problematic. Such behaviour is not constructive. To gain a proper understanding of the nationalist-based disruption in this area one has to check SPI archives such as Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Malbin210/Archive and related cases as seen in the archive and also check the sockpuppet userpages and contributions. For example, one of the socks had tried to convert the origin of George Washington's mother to Albanian. Δρ.Κ.  22:55, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Firstly you said that I haven't made any valuable contribution here.Then you mention "nationalism" ,Malbin210 and related cases.It is obvious now,the only problem for you is the fact that there are some Albanian editors contributing to Misplaced Pages.You don't want Albanain editors to contribute to Misplaced Pages.This is the only problem here.Rolandi+ (talk) 09:15, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

What part of edit-warring disruption and falsification of sources did you not understand? Don't try to use the ethnicity of editors as a red herring against me, especially when you yourself removed a fellow-Albanian editor's comments because he didn't agree with you. Resnjari, whose opinion you reverted because he didn't agree with you, is also Albanian and he has my respect. This has nothing to do with ethnicity and you know that very well. Δρ.Κ.  09:54, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The previous ANI regarding Rolandi+ was initiated by me, but it apparently ended in no result. I don't think it's necessary for me to present the user's incorrectness – he's been warned countless times. It's strange that he is allowed to continue this disruptive behaviour. Alexikoua shows none of Rolandi+'s manners (has always been civil, etc.) and I fail to see why Alexikoua is mentioned as a subject in this ANI. --Zoupan 10:16, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

As for Resnjari,I have talked to him.I deleted his comment because we weren't talking about chams in greece.Why don't you mention this fact?Zoupan says it's strange that I am allowed to contribute to Misplaced Pages.It's very strange in fact.Why doesn't Zoupan mention his falsification of sources as he did for example at Kosovo serbs?Why?How it's possible that these users undo all my edits (including Zoupan)?Why?Why do Alexikoua,Dr.K and Athenean delete all references that say the a X famous person or ethnic minority has albanian origin?How is it possible?Why don't you see their edit's history.Don't believe in our words...just go and control our edit's history.Alexikoua is very civil because after he deletes others' work and references ,he asks his collaborators for help.Before some days there was another ANI where I was involved.It was opened by Dr.K,while Athenean and Alexikoua commented against me.How is it possible that when I don't have the same ideas with Alexikoua,Athenean and Dr.K come and delete my work?How is it possible?It's unfair that the work of the Albanian editors is always undone by these three editors.How is it possible that all references introduced by Albanian editors(or by other editors who add the so-called pro albanian references)are "nationalism","unreliable","propaganda" and "manifesto"?It's unfair because Misplaced Pages has to be neutral.Look for example at Thomaeus article,I explained Alexikoua that he couldn't delete the well-established infos only to add the greek hypothesis.The right thing to do there is to include all the hypothesis about Thomaeus' origin.If you can't control these users,why don't you delete all the Albanian related articles,so they will not be vandalised anymore? Rolandi+ (talk) 11:41, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Also see at the "Greater Albania" talk page.These users put a map showing the presence of Albanians in the neighbour countries .Why don't they agree to put the map of "Greater Albania" there? Because they don't like it?Alexikoua says it is created by Albanian users?And what does it mean?Note the fact that Alexikoua uses greek politicans as references (for example at Souliotes)That article is about Greater Albania and not about the presence of Albanians in the neighbour countries.Everyone knows that the Greater Albania map is the map introduced by League of Prizren.Actually ,this is RACISM.Rolandi+ (talk) 12:16, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua,Dr.K and Athenean delete my references and edits .They say that my references are POV (Even when the reference is a non-Albanian/non-greek well-known scholar).On the other hand they use greek politicans as references. I can't even use the talk page,because the only thing they say is that my references are always "POV" and "manifesto".How is it possible that all my references are unreliable?Isn't this strange?Look at other Albanian editors.Their work is always undone by these three users because their references are always,but always "unraliable" and "POV".How is it possible?Rolandi+ (talk) 12:41, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

@Rolandi: To name an example, it's kinda weird to insist on adding citations such as this: ], which claims that the Wars of Alexander the Great were fought by Albanians ]. Even an editor who is not involved in historical articles will find it POV and unreliable. It's also not a case of ethnic conflict, as I've worked together with several editors that share the same national background with you.Alexikoua (talk) 12:59, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Why did Athenean lie?He said that I falsified sources at "Baku spirit".My warning there was a mistake.Why don't you go and ask the warning editor?Also note he didn't warned me for falsification. Athenean said I had falsified the source at "Vlachs".Why don't you go at the Vlach's editing history and see the truth?Why don't you see what the book used as reference says in reality?Also Zoupan said there is a problem with me at "Vlachs".Which is the problem?Zoupan don't know how to lie! Athenean said I falsified the sources at "Illyrians".Where is the falsification there?My edit there said that according to some scholars Illyrians are the ancestors of Albanians (this means that it's a theory,I didn't make it a fact). Athenean said that I falsified the source at the "Greater Albania".I explained him that we had to introduce both greek and italian figures to make the article neutral,why didn't he mention this fact?Because the only thing Athenean wants is to lie about me. As I said the use of the Talk page with these users is useless as the only thing that these three users say is that others' references are always,but always "nationalism","POV" ,"propaganda" and "manifesto".It's not my fault that these three users always say that my references are "propaganda" and "POV". Also,Alexikoua,why do you mention only the case of Wars of Alexander?Why don't you mention all the cases where you have undone others' edits claiming their references are "POV" and "nationalism" and "propaganda"?Rolandi+ (talk) 13:23, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

It's very easy.There is so many edit warring between us because these three editors always,but always undo my edits .The talk page is useless because the only thing they do is to claim the others' references are always,but always "unacceptable","POV","nationalism","propaganda","manifesto","unreliable".I can't use the dispute noticeboards for hundreads articles,because it is ridiculous.The only thing to do is to prevent these three users from vandalizing Misplaced Pages,especially albania-related articles.I am sure that if these three users stop deleting other's edits and references only because they don't like them,there will not be any edit warring/problem at albanian related articles anymore.Also I suggest you to help editors about Balkans-related articles (for ex. if their references are reliable/POV etc).Rolandi+ (talk) 13:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua doesn't agree to put the map of the Greater Albania at the "Greater Albania" article.He firstly said the the current map is detailed,but it's not the map of Greater Albania (the original map is based on the map of the League of Prizren ).Then he claimed that these maps are the the same,but they aren't.He said that we can't put the map of the Greater Albania there because "I am eager to see a map that paints everything in red" (meaning that I am a nationalist and maybe I have irridenstist ideas) while the national colours of Albania are the red AND THE BLACK.He doesn't agree because he doesn't like the map,this is the problem with these editors,they don't agree with others only because they want to control Misplaced Pages.Note that the current map shows Albanians in Albania and neighboring countries,not the Greater Albania based on the maps of the League of Prizren.Rolandi+ (talk) 14:19, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The Balkans are subject to discretionary sanctions under WP:ARBMAC. Arbitration Enforcement may be a more efficient way of dealing with conduct issues than this noticeboard. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:43, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

To Robert McClenon. About time this happened. More attention needs to be paid because to many shenanigans having been going on and some Albanian editors have been intimidated and i include myself in this as being as such. Few Albanian editors have been engaging with Misplaced Pages recently because of such things and some editors of a non-Albanian heritage seem to be making changes in articles without even discussing it. I call to your attention the article Aoös whose name was changed by Greek editors (such as user User:Hwasus > ] without consensus (and due to Albanian editors no longer continuing for a while) while in previous discussions about a name change was resolved that Vjosa stays as the page's name (]). Who would i go to regarding this very serious matter.Resnjari (talk) 19:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua deleted many informations at Nicholas Leonicus Thomaeus,including the references that said that he Thomaeus might have been of Albanian origin,saying that "widely established international scholarship tend to disagree with what was written inside Albania during the People's Republic regime".Where did he learn that Thomaeus' albanian origin hypothesis is fabricated during the communist period in Albania?Also he deleted Jacque who isn't albanian.This is only racism and this is a big problem.Seriously this is ridiculous.Rolandi+ (talk) 17:44, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

To Rolandi, some Albanian sources from the communist period are tainted because they were ideologically driven and or forced by Enver to produce material that has many problems. For a list of academics who managed to go against the communist regime and produce good research like Eqrem Cabej see book "Pipa, Arshi (1989). The politics of language in socialist Albania. East European Monographs. As for non Albanian western sources state Nicholas Leonicus Thomaeus was a Greek. This is possible as during the time Nicholas was born there were some Greeks (merchants and so on) in Durres, as it was a coastal port and international city (its also had Albanians). See Robert Elsie article page 3 (. The stuff on numbers in the Cham Albanian article, the Topulli stuff is resolved. Send me on my talk page the stuff from researcher Nazarko (he is a good source -full inline citation though and source). I'll work something out regarding Idromeno on that basis.Resnjari (talk) 19:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Resnjari.you said that western sources state that Thomaeus was greek.And Jacque,isn't he a western source?I am not saying that Thomaeus wasn't greek,I am saying that he might have been albanian (hypothesis).Also where did you learn that the Albanian hypothesis was fabricated by the Communist Albanians?The fact that many albanian scholars ideologically were driven and or forced by Enver Hoxha to produce material that has many problems doesn't mean that the albanian hypothesis was fabricated by them.See also sources like Jacque.Alexikoua deleted many infos that were there since a long time and added the greek hypothesis.The right thing to do is to include all hypothesis.Rolandi+ (talk) 20:19, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Comment": Rolandi+ is proving to be a problem editor on a number of articles surrounding the Balkans. I suggest that he/she is an aggressive editor who's WP:NOTHERE. Leaving missives such as this on my talk page is not appreciated when I have read through the sources he/she has used to introduce changes to content on Vlachs. The user has WP:CHERRYPICKING sources addressing a variety of complex issues and academic evaluation in order create WP:SYNTH. I made the mistake of allowing the user enough WP:ROPE to continue refactoring the same content, for which I take responsibility: I made the wrong call. As the "Vlachs" article falls under the general scope of WP:ARBMAC, I agree with Robert McClenon that this is something to be dealt with via WP:ARB. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:30, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

In my limited observation, there is a great deal of battleground editing and quarreling about articles about the Balkan region. One reason is of course that the Balkan region has too many times been a real battleground, including being the origin of World War One, which killed fifteen million people. ArbCom was prudent in putting the Balkans under discretionary sanctions as an area that the community does not deal with effectively at noticeboards such as this one. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:02, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I think you're aware that most of my editing is in the area I know, being Eastern Europe. Being a glutton for punishment, I like to keep my hand in on other contentious areas where I don't have any doubts as to my neutrality. ArbCom is, unfortunately, an extremely arduous process for those who are involved in working through complaints (and my sympathies are extended to them) as there's a tendency for involved users to continue their battles there rather than follow the processes. Unfortunately, the end product is that problem editors keep getting out of being sanctioned by the skin of their teeth, only to keep their heads down for a period of time and resume when they're confident that enough time has elapsed for prior behavioural problems to have been forgotten. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:27, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Irina Harpy,why don't you mention the fact that the discussion (and the problem) between us started because you changed (falsified) the citation at the reference.See here what the source says.Another user deleted your falsifications and explained everything.Why don't you mention this fact?Why?I agree that Balkans related articles are almost all problematic and vandalised but this doesn't mean you can LIE!Rolandi+ (talk) 08:46, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy Rolandi just needs some more practice. One just needs to have a in depth discussion about things and too tone it down a bit. At the moment it seems i am the only one doing engaging with him without resorting to name calling and so on. I value Rolandi wanting to contribute; it’s just he has to be more cautious about certain sources or how the source is used in general. There are few Albanian editors these days on Misplaced Pages. Things have become dormant and some editors of non-Albanian heritage have taken it upon themselves to do for example article name changes (like the Vjosa example i cited) without community consultation or to call POV anything a editor might want to undertake in adding to an article (even when the source/s is peer reviewed and very credible) (see: Talk:Cham Albanians). I have had these issues multiple times now (in the end my edits have gone through almost in their entirety) but it has taken too much time, energy and effort which though was done in good faith. There were cases were even my cognitive abilities where questioned which was quite offensive. (See article Talk:Greek Muslims). What you might call "quarreling" i have an issue because not all editors are equal. Some who have privileges are editors from a background who may have less than polite views regarding people of Albanian heritage. There should be non-Balkan editors adjudicating certain articles so those who have those privileges don't abuse them or intimidate editors who insist on change (the later must make their case though). Merit and content based on Misplaced Pages policy should be the outcome everyone conducts themselves upon. More oversight is needed or absent that the removal of privileges (auto patrol etc) of some editors for those engaging in such behavior so as to make it a level playing field. Misplaced Pages is a democratic forum, it should not be a place where Greek editors have privileges over Albanian ones or vice versa.Resnjari (talk) 09:12, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

The user makes up his own rules, again, and again.--Zoupan 16:35, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Why don't you mention the fact that there is a consensus at the talk page?Why?Why do you want to delete informations +add others without consensus?Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rolandi+ (talk • contribs) 17:03, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I fail to see a concensus in the talkpage. Can't understand what you really mean.Alexikoua (talk) 18:43, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

There is no concensus about our recent edits,so they have to all to be deleted until a consensus.I said that at talk page,you commented but you did't said no.Zoupan and Alexikoua agree with the fact that my edits (and others made by other non-albanian editors) have to be deleted until consesnus (note that the edits of some other non-albanian editors have been there since a long time but you deleted them because you don't like them).But you don't agree with the fact that your recent edits have to be deleted until a consesnus too (as some of them are clear vandalism). You always,but always (just see your editing's history) delete others' edits and references.Strange.You always delete albanian's editors edits but you don't know what to say.Alexikoua deleted my edits at "Kara Mahmud Pasha" saying "rv poorly cited (you have been advised how to do that properly without false ISBNs)".Actually there wasn't any ISBN there.He LIED. This is what some specific users :Alexikoua,Zoupan,Dr.K ,Athenean do,they just destroy others' work,especially the work of Albanian editors. Note:It's the second time that unregistred users delete my work.After the habit of those four user to delete my edits was introduced here,some unregistred users are undoing my edits.STRANGE!Rolandi+ (talk) 19:47, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

After the habit of those four user to delete my edits was introduced here,some unregistred users are undoing my edits.STRANGE!: Actually your insinuation is not strange at all. That was the favourite MO of blocked sock Bonender: Are you a sock puppet account of Alexikoua ? Cause i will seek investigation cf. Malbin210's SPI. Strange indeed. Isn't it? Δρ.Κ.  01:22, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Also here you accuse Athenean of being Alexikoua's sock: disruptive editing by Alexikoua's sock,maybe needs reporting Funny that. Very similar phraseology to Bonender's. Really funny stuff, ain't it? Δρ.Κ.  06:56, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

The real fun is that you claim that people that doesn't have the same ideas with you are socks.Why don't you go and see how many contributions you have deleted by claiming that others are sock...hundreads...thousands.How is possible that you edit at the same article at the same time?Rolandi+ (talk) 09:37, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Block Rolandi+ and move on I'm amazed at the lack of action and long discussions. This in an incredibly simple matter that does not need to take up anyone's time. Rolandi+ is definitely guilty of multiple policy violations as clearly demonstrated in the discussion. No other user appears to have done anything wrong. I suggest an admin just closes this discussion with a suitable block for Rolandi+. When a situation is this clear, there is no need for all the drama currently taking place.Jeppiz (talk) 22:03, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring on Albanians

There is now an edit war going on at this article between User:Rolandi+ and User:SilentResident. See article history. I've notified SilentResident. Rolandi+ is already party to this discussion. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:35, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I've notified SilentResident about discretionary sanctions, as he does not appear to have ever been notified in the past. ~ Rob 21:54, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I deeply apologize for the 3-revert rule, I just tried to revert the POV edits by the user Rolandi+. Feel free to check the page's history Albania. Again, my apologies if I broke the 3-revert rules, this was not my intention. --SilentResident (talk) 21:59, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

When Rolandi+ insisted on his POV edits on Albanians and refused to provide any reliable sources for his edits in the appropriate talk page, even after 3 reverts, I realized that I had no other option but to ask politely for a moderator's attention on the issue, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise#Unsourced_POV_edits_on_population_figures I didn't had any bad intentions, I just tried to prevent POV edits on the page. My apologies. --SilentResident (talk) 22:29, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions warnings should not be given on the basis of a single edit-warring incident on a single article. That's why we have the 3RR rule. Only when the editing causes disruption in more than one Balkans-related article and there is a pattern of disruptive editing in multiple Balkans-related articles a DS warning should be issued. SilentResident does not qualify for a DS warning under these criteria. Δρ.Κ.  22:53, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

This has become ludicrous. Reverting edits by a DE does not merit sanction warnings. As noted by Dr. K, Rolandi+ has established a NOTHERE editing pattern and is oblivious to BRD to the point of being pure BATTLEGROUND. DS warnings for GF editors (particularly where they are obviously aware of the existence of the DS) smacks of punitive action inferring that the editor is acting in bad faith. Surely there is a point at which Misplaced Pages sysops should review the nature of incidents and not shift the onus to the reverter while ignoring the BURDEN on the contributor to back up their content changes/additions with cite checked RS (nor allow for non-sysops to play the blame game by using DS warnings to be used as badges of shame). This can only be construed as rewarding bad faith editing on some obscure point of POV righteousness. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:12, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

A DS notification is just that - a notification. As the template itself states, it is not an implication of any wrongdoing, but merely a notification. If he plans to continue editing in that area, it's something he should be aware of. I meant nothing more by it than that. I agree that my warning did not meet Dr.K's criteria, but those criteria are not part of any actual policy that I've been able to find. ~ Rob 01:55, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

A DS notification is just that - a notification. As the template itself states, it is not an implication of any wrongdoing, but merely a notification.: That does not mean that one should proceed with notification overkill or notify in the absence of good grounds for a notification. A DS is designed to warn about disruption in the Balkans area. An edit-warring dispute in a single Balkans article does not equal disruption in the Balkans area. Good judgment is needed when using Arbcom instruments. You will not find this requirement in any policy but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Δρ.Κ.  02:51, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

DS notification is not a sanction. It's notification that special policy applies, for editors working in a topic area that have done something that merited attention. That something may or may not have been actionable but attracted attention.

We had prior arguments over whether it was a hostile action or abusive to DS notify someone, and the consensus was that involved parties should not under that circumstance but others' doing so was not a problem. Was there something specific here that was a problem?... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you George. I have seen the prior debates and I understand the arguments. Having said that, I think a notification to an editor who has not exhibited disruptive behaviour in the area of the Balkans is not necessary. A single article in the Balkans area is not the area of the Balkans. Here we have Rolandi+, an edit-warring champion in the area of the Balkans edit-warring, as is his custom, with an editor who has no record of disruptive behaviour in the Balkans area. I think it is an overkill to give the latter a DS warning absent any evidence that his behaviour is going to spread to at least one more Balkans article. I think using discretion in such cases is a good idea. Δρ.Κ.  03:37, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

He was engaging in behavior that could easily lead to a report to WP:AN3 if it continued. Had that occurred, an admin would have almost certainly brought up the discretionary sanctions (if only to mention them). I'm of the opinion that an editor should not first hear about discretionary sanctions when they're being talked about on a noticeboard. They should know what they're getting into before they engage in any behavior that is borderline, as they may choose not to engage in that behavior if they're aware of the discretionary sanctions. Keep in mind that, on the flip side, an editor that is editing positively in a contentious area subject to discretionary sanctions will want to know about them so they can respond appropriately to disruptive editors if necessary. Knowledge is power, etc etc ~ Rob 03:47, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

It is somehow speculative to assume that an admin at 3RRN will issue DS warnings to the parties but even if s/he does I don't see the problem with being informed at the noticeboard. I think it is preferable to see the warning at the noticeboard than being slapped with it at one's talkpage. There are also other ways to inform editors about DS without slapping them with a formal notice. Knowledge is power and other such slogans are ok but being slapped with a DS notice on their talkpage is intimidating to some editors never mind the disclaimers and associated slogans. Δρ.Κ.  04:09, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Echoing Dr. K's sentiments, the problem is that I would consider the notification as being a bad judgement call on behalf of BU Rob13. While experienced editors are aware of the fact that, technically, it isn't an accusation of wrongful editing behaviour, such warnings should be issued bearing in mind the context (it takes two to tango, but substantiating who's leading the dance is of primary concern). In this instance, the new contributor did not receive the same warning to at least meet with a sense of parity, whereas it was directed at a more experienced editor who was reverting badly sourced, POV content whereas the other party (whose amendments to the content actually carry the BURDEN) was not following through discussions per BRD. The new contributor has already been previously blocked, harrassed non-partisan editors and cast WP:ASPERSIONS as to the nature of their editing, and is treating Misplaced Pages articles surrounding Albanian issues as a BATTLEGROUND. I'll admit to the fact that I've already been worn down by the opponent by trying to comply with AGF, this courtesy has not been extended to any editors attempting to communicate with Rolandi+ (see the section on my talk page + the diffs outlining multiple examples of harassment of other editors in this thread, not simply this subsection).

While I'm not condemning BU Rob13 for posting the DS notification, at the very least a reciprocal alert should have also been posted on Rolandi+'s talk page. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:28, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Good point Iryna, but I did that some weeks ago as soon as I realised we were faced with yet another edit-warring champion in the Balkans area. Δρ.Κ.  06:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Propose topic ban of Rolandi+

Just a few days ago, Rolandi posted this, saying (and I quote) "As I said ,we need to be more carefull in the future and stop edit warring.". Yet today he racked up 3 reverts at Albanians, no problem. Is there anyone here who still believes a word this user says? He has lost all credibility in my opinion. Any more warnings are a waste of time, he will make all the right noises to avoid punishment and then as soon as he thinks no one is looking he will revert to form (no pun intended). I am thus proposing that he be topic banned from Balkan related articles, broadly construed. Proposed. Athenean (talk) 05:41, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Support". While I would be reticent to support a general block against Rolandi+ (as has been suggested in the earlier thread), if the user is genuinely committed to being HERE, s/he needs to familiarise themselves with WP:PG by working on articles outside of the contentious ones directly and indirectly involving Albania. Throwing themselves into the deep end of an area they have partisan alliances to without any experience in moderating their behaviour is bound to be distressing for both the user and regular editors. At some point in the future, after demonstrably positive input, the topic ban could be reviewed. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:23, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Irina Harpy,all the problem here is that I said you that I will report you because you sent me a false warning and because you falsificated the reference at Vlachs.This is tha all the problem.Why don't you go and see what really happened at Albanians?Why?That editor and me used the talk page and I explained him his mistakes.Also,my edits aren't reverts of his edits (except one only after we talk at the talk page),but improvements of his recent work.Go and see to believe it.So don't try to LIE AGAIN.Rolandi+ (talk) 09:02, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Also go and see what SilentResident did at Albanians.Milliyet says that 500 thousand have consciousness of their Albanian origin while there are 1.3 mln albanians in turkey.This is POV .It means he isn't neutral and then the problem is me.The only problem is that some editors delete informations (not always added by me ,for example at Albanians ) claiming that the references aren't reliable.When the reference is a well known scholar,the problem is the user who deletes it.Also I didn't make edit-warring,I improved some informations (some of them were added by SilentResident) and reverted his edits only one time .

Also ,after this ANI was created and some Greek editors were involved on it,how is it possible that some other greek editors started deleting well established informations about Albanians?No, this isn't a problem,the problem strangely is only me! Rolandi+ (talk) 09:29, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Also SilentResident doesn't need to LIE.He said he deleted my POV,but the informations that he deleted without any clear explanation and without concensus are there since a long time.Those informations weren't added by me.SO HE LIED AGAIN AS HE DID ABOUT MILLIYET REFERENCE.AND THEN THE PROBLEM IS ME!!!!You are very neutral!Rolandi+ (talk) 10:03, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Support topic ban Rolandi+ has shown beyond any doubt they are WP:NOTHERE, and continues to violate several policies. The continued comments by Rolandi+ inthis thread further show the user is unwilling to hear and continues to insist the problem is everybody else. Broad topic ban only solution.Jeppiz (talk) 10:10, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi+, you have just attacked me and called me a liar. This is very sad and unfortunate of your part. I have expected that, like how I am trying to be polite with you, I could have enjoyed a minimum level of reciprocity in my politeness to you. I wish you could show some maturity at least, because Misplaced Pages is not a playground where we fight with other Wiki users, nor it is a bar where we accuse them of blatant lies. While you speak with accusations and insults, I speak with logic. While you are resorting to edit wars with other users, reverts and insults, I have at least tried asking for your cooperation in bringing more sources for citation. I have nothing against you, and it only saddens me that Misplaced Pages is overshadowed by people of your kind whose the actions disrupt the peaceful environment and cooperation with other users. I am very sad, and I am sorry. --SilentResident (talk) 10:23, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

And dear community, because I am involved in this unfortunate tension with Rolandi+, I don't think I am eligible in taking position regarding Rolandi's ban suggestion. (so I won't be voicing pro-banning or against banning him, and will stay neutral).--SilentResident (talk) 10:30, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose': My preference is that further discussion is had with Rolandi. When i have done so how certain sources or numbers may be an issue, he has taken it on board and relented (for example the Cham Albanian page or the Tomasso article). Some editors here who are advocating for a ban have in the past referred to certain proposed changes with peer reviewed material i have done as "POV" (while after backing off when i invoked Misplaced Pages policy and so on and in the end have gone through. They have also shown to be very selective with Misplaced Pages policy or even to the point of making it up to prevent peer reviewed material going into an article. For more see: Talk:Souliotes) and have said things such as questioning my cognitive abilities which was very offensive (For more see Talk:Greek Muslims). I do not trust some editors’ motives in this instance for banning Rolandi, due in part to my experiences with them. There are many Greek and Serbian editors, but so few Albanian ones these days. I call for outside adjudication regarding the matter so trust and good faith can be restored and some articles that are in need of a fix up to be done as such with peer reviewed material and free of intimidation and personal attacks as i have experienced repeatedly for a select number of editors here now going after Rolandi. Outside intervention is needed so as to prevent any ganging up like activity from occurring.Resnjari (talk) 10:40, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

SilentResident,your words are very beautifull.Why don't you go and see what did you do at Albanians article?Why?Also keep in mind that I do not intend to offend anyone,I said that you lied because you really lied.And your words (your lies about what really happened at Albanians )may send me to a block.Rolandi+ (talk) 10:59, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Alexioua and me have made edit warring (Alexikoua has made edit warring at hundreads and thousands other cases about Balkans related articles ,more than me) so Athenean proposed topic ban ONLY for me.Interesting!Rolandi+ (talk) 11:08, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

I want to report Rolandi for trying to blakcmail me now, in the Talk: Albanians, he threatened me twice: "So revert your edits about the albanians in turkey,or I will report you after that ANI" and "I may be blocked for this topic,but this doesn't mean that I can't report you for your vandalism.So go and delete your edits about albanians in turkey". He is basically threatening me that if I don't undo his reverted POV edits, I will get reported! Please, any help? --SilentResident (talk) 11:15, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes,go and read Misplaced Pages's rules about the use of concensus when you want to delete well-established informations.I am involved at this ANI now,after that I will report your falsification of sources (see what Milliyet really says about the number of albanians in Turkey).I also will report you for your lies (you said that you deleted my POV,while they weren't added by me ) and for your vandalism (you deleted well -established referenced infos without concensus ).Rolandi+ (talk) 11:22, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Support topic ban. I tried explaining to him the importance of having reliable facts and sources in Misplaced Pages's articles, and especially in the sensitive ones related to the Balkan region. This person however is pushing things off edge by trying to blackmail the me and accuse the others! I agree with Jeppiz and the people above, this user should be banned, at least from the Balkan-related articles. --SilentResident (talk) 12:09, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

This ANI is about Alexikoua and me,but the discussion here is only about me.who are discussing?athenean,zoupan and dr.k who have deleted almost all my work and edits (and many other's edits,just see their history ).also,i had said to irina harpy and silentresident that i will report them,so thay came here talking against me!this isn't fair.why isn't there any problem with alexikoua's edit warring ?why?he has deleted many others' work and edits (not only albanian editors )only by saying "manifesto","nationalism""propaganda" etc. This isn't fair and it's sure this will not end here.if neended,i will try contacting wikipedia for the fact that the discussion here is only about me.you can ban me,but this will not end so easily. This is not a thread,i am just saying what is going to happen.this is ridiculous,the discussion here is made only by some editors that don't have the moral right to discuss here,for the only reason they have been accused from me for several things.on the other hand,alexikoua isn't mentioned on this discussion. Also note that I haven't made edit warring since that ANI.The only one is at Albanians where SilentResident deleted many infos (with a part I agree,with some no ),I tried to explain him the Misplaced Pages's rules (I would send him a warning but I am at this ANI now ).This isn't my fault.Anyways I will be more carefull in the future and I will solve problem at Albanians at ANI .Rolandi+ (talk) 15:57, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Scytsari

Scytsari (talk · contribs) is POV-pushing on the article Tajiks in blatant disregard of Misplaced Pages's WP:V policy. The issue is that is he is clearly intent on adding several medieval Persian people to the article's ethnicity gallery who are not ethnically Tajik and which do not have any references on their pages which claim so. Most of these peoples' articles do not make any mention of 'Tajik' in any context. He has reverted my removal of this OR three times, each time alleging it was 'vandalism': , , . In addition, he reverted User:Khestwol's removal once: . In one of the aforementioned edit summaries, he also accused me of having a personal agenda ().

I explained many times on Talk:Tajiks that references would be required (on the subjects' pages) for such claims and that my removal was in accordance with WP:V. His first comment on the article talk page does not address WP:V, instead addressing a different point, and goes on to question my education before calling my removal vandalism . I again reiterate that references would be required on the subjects' talk page and he goes on a rant in which he tells me to go educate myself (he advises me to read a source which I had posted earlier in the discussion, nonetheless) . In between his four reverts and uncivil behavior, he has not once bothered to provide a single reference on either the talk page or any of the subjects' articles in support of his claims. This is getting ridiculous; two other users have already told him to stop adding unreferenced original research: and . Yet he refuses to get the point. Elspamo4 (talk) 00:47, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Proposals – sanctions against Scytsari

• I propose a ban against adding images to Tajiks, unless he comes here and states that he understands now and that if he desires more images he will ensure beforehand on Talk:Tajiks that he has consensus and that the nationality/ethinicity is properly sourced with community-accepted reliable sources. Also, I propose a site-wide ban on using the word "vandalism" in edit summaries. Also, I propose a strict adherence to WP:BRD. I propose also that violation of any of these proposals will result in a block. Softlavender (talk) 01:38, 12 July 2015 (UTC) UPDATE: problem is too extensive. Propose block instead. Softlavender (talk) 05:06, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• These are all thoughtful suggestions, but I would suggest an outright ban from editing the page Tajiks rather than a simple images ban. He has re-added completely unsourced material four times within a span of three days, including thrice in a single day. He has done so while being fully aware that he is in contempt of Misplaced Pages policy. His disruptive editing has unfortunately resulted in the page being fully protected. He's shown this same battleground behavior on the page previously, as well, when he reverted another user who tried to remove the pictures two months ago. Elspamo4 (talk) 19:38, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Point taken. Can you also look at the few other articles he's edited? At a cursory glance, he seems to be exhibiting a battleground behavior on those as well; in fact Callenecc had to hat one particular PA/rant of his three weeks ago. This seems to be a battleground new editor with a very small degree of clue and a very large intent to disrupt, who is not here to build an encyclopedia. Perhaps a block, and possibly a lengthy one, is what is needed. Softlavender (talk)

Good find. Judging from Talk:Kandahar, he has previously edited under 99.240.250.20 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and has made some very battleground-like edits. On the article you mentioned, he removed mentions of 'Afghan' and 'Dari', which was promptly reverted. Also on the page Iranian peoples, he twice edited the page to insert his POV fringe claim that Iranian and Tajiks are synonyms. He was reverted both times and . Ironically, this is the same view he is perpetuating on the Tajiks page as well. He also removed information about Afghans from Herat twice: and . His first removal summary was "Learn to read, it's poorly edited and misinformation".

I took his nationalist edits on Tajiks with a grain of salt, but judging from his other edits its clear that he is WP:NOTHERE. All of his edits reflect on an agenda to 'erase' the Afghan identity and create falsities to promote his ideas about Tajiks in order to right great wrongs. This is just scratching the surface of his edits. There is also a good possibility that he is editing under different accounts or IPs. It's very unfortunate that his behavior has gone unnoticed for so long and is still going unnoticed. In light of this, I endorse a block, though I'm not sure what the appropriate length would be. Elspamo4 (talk) 01:58, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support an indefinite block of both this account and the IP account, and a CheckUser check to check for socks or sleeper socks. Per Elspamo4's evidence above, Scytsari has been editing under 99.240.250.20, which is already a suspected sock of two other sockmasters, listed at: User talk:99.240.250.20 -- Softlavender (talk) 05:06, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support indefinite block Looking at Beh-nam's sockpuppet investigation, the findings are conclusive and in-line with my comments on his nationalist agenda. Most of the socks' edits are virtually identical to Scytsari's (e.g NassirAkram1440's edits on Tajiks). It seems he has been disruptively editing Tajik and Afghan-related articles for some time now. A CU and indef block is certainly in order. Elspamo4 (talk) 05:28, 13 July 2015 (UTC) (P.S. I was too absent minded to check his talk page in my earlier post; thanks for bringing it to my attention.) Elspamo4 (talk) 05:32, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Taking the lazy way out by calling in my go-to anti-sockpuppet guru, if he will take the case: Bbb23, could you do a quick check and indef block these accounts and any sleepers? If so, thanks. Softlavender (talk) 08:10, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Just for the record, I opened an investigation at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Beh-nam. Elspamo4 (talk) 08:18, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Ah, OK, Could you please request CheckUser, so that all other socks and sleepers can be caught in the net? If you do, I will chime in. Softlavender (talk) 08:28, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm not really sure how to request checkuser. I just attempted, but I'm not sure if I did it right. Elspamo4 (talk) 08:39, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

There's a code to change from checkuser=no to checkuser=yes when filing new reports. Maybe when it's a re-opened investigation, CU is automatic. Anyway, I chimed in. Softlavender (talk) 08:50, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

This is very bad behavior. Regardless of the SPI outcome, if we see User:Scytsari making any more edits like those he has made at Tajiks an indefinite block per WP:NOTHERE would be justified. The SPI should be continued because it may show how far the problem extends. In the unlikely event that Scytsari responds here we should listen to whatever he has to say. EdJohnston (talk) 00:20, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I just saw this. I've had this account on my WP:Watchlist because he appears to me to be a problematic editor and a WP:Sock. Any new account that appears to be a WP:Sock to me, I put on my WP:Watchlist and/or mark it down in my online notepad; they usually eventually turn out to be WP:Socks (even if it's a year or more later). So I support whatever ban on this editor is needed, or an indefinite block for this editor. Flyer22 (talk) 00:30, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• UPDATE: An SPI clerk has just declined CheckUser and hatted a relevant discussion on Talk:Tajiks which mentions Scytsari , and has inserted himself into the discussion . I've asked the clerk to unhat the posts: . Softlavender (talk) 01:40, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• I hadn't noticed this previously but Scytsari was reported by another user for edit warring on Bacha bazi. His first 19 of 20 posts were on that page and almost all of them were disruptive. 4 of them were to remove mention of the Afghan ethnicity. It seems that almost all of Scytari's edits have been made to spread his POV and fringe theories. In the report filed by User:CompliantDrone, he stated "myself and other editors are beginning to suspect sock puppetry based on patterns of behavior". Anyway, I know we don't ban people based on suspected sockpuppetry and I'll leave the SPI on Scytsari to take course. Though, like Softlavender, I'm disappointed that the checkuser was rejected because I think the problem is widespread in Central Asian articles. Elspamo4 (talk) 18:03, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment (The pot calling the kettle black) It is probably true that Scytsari (talk · contribs) is editing pages with a pro-Tajik WP:POV. However, it would also seem that Elspamo4 (who started this discussion) is editing pages with an anti-Tajik WP:POV (frequently removing references to Tajiks) which is hardly any better. In the edit reporting Scytsari for edit warring, Elspamo4 conveniently neglects to mention that the whole edit war started by their own removal of long-standing material, a removal which Elspamo4 has repeated several times in the edit war , . If any block or ban is introduced, I suggest it is handed out to both users. Jeppiz (talk) 18:44, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure where to start with this. Firstly, do not accuse of me of having a POV when all of my edits are based on Misplaced Pages policies (namely WP:V). I have no connection to Tajikistan or Tajiks, or anything related to Central Asia. I have never edited on a Central Asian topic prior to Tajiks, which had come to my attention after finding historical Persians in Category:Tajiks with no references justifying their inclusion.

Secondly, I did not start any edit war. I removed unreferenced content which had been deemed problematic by myself and Akmal54 on the talkpage. I fully explained my rationale on the talk page. You reverted my removal and re-added the unreferenced content with a very patronizing and clueless edit summary: "No consensus to delete, and kindly stop the edit warring or you risk being blocked." You proceeded to use the talkpage as a soapbox and never provided a single reliable source to back up your or Scytsari's claims. Five editors (myself, Akmal54, Vanjagenije, Khestwol, Zyma) have constantly reiterated the requirement for reliable sources. I don't know if you have literacy issues or simply ignore anything which you don't agree with, but you seriously need to drop the stick. Heed our advice on the talk page and try finding reliable sources to justify these subjects' inclusion.

Your accusation that I am removing 'referenced information' for my own satisfaction is both troubling and misleading. You are referring to Hammasa Kohistani, where I removed false information which was not in the reference provided. I even explained this in my edit summary. You tried reverting my edit, claiming it was a 'false edit summary' before realizing your mistake and self-reverting. Please do not make any more baseless accusations in this thread, thanks. Elspamo4 (talk) 20:49, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Jeppiz also accused me of being a nationalist sockpuppet on the Tajiks talk page. This is getting tiresome. Elspamo4 (talk) 21:04, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

No, I did not accuse you. I merely point out we had a serious issue with several socks of a banned user; I have absolutely no idea whether you're a sock of that user or not but I've never believed you to be.Jeppiz (talk) 21:24, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion to block both Scytsari and Elspamo4

Having read Elspamo4's reply above, filled with violations of WP:NPA and refusal to WP:HEAR, I've come to the conclusion that both of these users Scytsari and Elspamo4 aren't here for the right reasons, and I believe Elspamo4's reply show it.

• Insisting that one is "right" and thus cannot be guilt of WP:POV is a classic warning. We all have WP:POVs, the point is that we should still respect policies.
• Second, Elspamo4's insistence that they weren't edit warring because you were right is another misunderstanding; being right is no excuse for edit warring, nor does it become less of edit warring because it's "right". I've pointed this out to the user before, their failure to WP:HEAR is worrying.
• Third, it's a bit rich trying to turn my use of the talk page (instead of edit warring) into a problem. Yes, I used the talk page of Tajiks when I saw Scytsari and Elspamo4 edit warring. When Elspamo4 argues that they are not only above rules about edit warring because they are right, but even ridicule users trying to take the issue to the talk page, it's very clear they are not hear for the right purpose.
• Fourth, completely needless insults such as "I don't know if you have literacy issues" above violate WP:NPA, bring nothing to the discussion, and are only intended to turn discussions into a WP:BATTLEFIELD.

I think Elspamo4 has made a convincing case for why Scytsari should be blocked from editing any article related to Tajiks. I also think Elspamo4, through their edit warring, refusal to hear, battlefield mentality and needless personal attacks, has made a convincing case for why they should not edit articles related to Tajiks either. I support a topic ban for both users.Jeppiz (talk) 21:24, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Further on the same time, Elspamo4 makes it perfectly clear that they will continue to edit war as soon as the page protection expires . In several years at Misplaced Pages, I've never come across a user who has been so convinced that being right gives them the right to ignore discussions, consensus, rules about edit wars and other details that stop them from WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS.Jeppiz (talk) 20:55, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Mass deletion / PROD / redirect of mall articles under the guise of WP:COI

• Joseph2302 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Jytdog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

These two editors have been redirecting articles without discussion and PRODing several articles in mass. Its too many articles for me to create individual links for here, but the links can be found by looking through their contributions.

I was initially tipped off to what was happening when Jytdog first added a COI tag to Westfield Plaza Bonita. Then the same user went ahead and deleted most of what was in the article and then added a Speedy Deletion PROD before just going ahead and redirecting the article without discussion. I mean who wants tot wait a whole week for a PROD to mature, right? So I reinstated the article, but then I was Reverted by Joseph2302. So much for having a discussion.

This is not an isolated incident. There are several articles that have been redirected or have had PRODs added to them by these two.

I did remove a PROD at another article titled, Westfield Santa Anita, but it was immediately reinstated with a message telling ME to discuss, which is supposed to be against the guidelines.

Also, at Westfield Mission Valley, Joseph2302 nominated the article for deletion, while Jytdog came along and pretty much deleted most of the content, without discussion. Now I realize that articles need citations, but they should have requested the cisterns before deciding to remove content. I tried to put the information back per BRD, but Jytdog would rather edit war,

In addition at Talk:Westfield Mission Valley, Jytdog begins a discussion and then 3 minutes later leaves a message wondering why I haven't responded as a way to make it look as if I'm not discussing. Seriously, 3 minutes? Give me a break.

This is far more than one editor, myself, can handle. This may be a larger problem as these two may have been doing this for a far greater amount of time than just today. Please help.--JOJ 00:51, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Nothing wrong here, if you read the thread at WP:COIN#User:MallExpert, you'll see this was a massive COI issue. And it's perfectly acceptable to remove completely unsourced content, per WP:VERIFY. As for the redirects, I thought it was beneficial to have a redirect rather than a promotional article with no sourcing and no verifiability, and so was bold in trying to cleanup the COI mess. Fact is that it's a COI mess and we are trying to clear it up. There's enough admins that frequent WP:COIN that if we were doing something wrong, it would be noticed very quickly. This is standard COI cleanup, and it's only you that appears to have a problem. Joseph2302 (talk) 01:00, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

These articles have been around far longer than when that single editor decided to edit the articles. And everything that that single editor added has been deleted or reverted. How is there still a COI problem then?--JOJ 01:03, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

COI stuff needed removing, plus basically everything in those article was unsourced, and so per WP:VERIFY should be removed. If you actually read my discussion on the redirects I created, I wanted to remove the unsourced, promotional articles, and then if they were notable then someone could replace it with a sources-based, neutral tone article. Everything I did was in good faith and for the benefit of the encyclopedia, to clearup the COI mess and remove unsourced content. Joseph2302 (talk) 01:06, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• we are dealing with a widespread case at COIN, Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#User:MallExpert and Jojhutton is freaking instead of talking. They have used Talk twice - here asking what is going on (apparently didn't read connected contributor tags) which I responded to right away and explained and asked what the concern was here, to which they never responded.

I've asked them to talk many times (here, here, here and specifically why they were restoring unsourced content here and again here, to which they responded here at 00:14, which is almost a full hour after they first got upset. (that note just says, "Seriously? It's been 3 minutes?") I replied to that here and again no reply.

And now they filed this. I don't know why they are not talking. What is going on, is easy to explain. And I do not understand restoring unsourced content. Why are you doing that, Jo? And why, instead of talking to me at your talk page or an article Talk page, do you come here to ANI? Jytdog (talk) 01:08, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Nope, you aren't going to pull this BS about me not talking. You starter a thread on one page and then 3 minutes later you "call me out" for not discussing? I don't think so. Plus pick a page. I can't follow you around to every single talk page you happen to decide to start a thread on.--JOJ 01:12, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

That's his typical practice, to ignore conversations that he doesn't like and to spread comments all over. If I get time, I'll pull some diffs, but he tends to forum shop as well. The other thing that he will do is comment about others and then complain when his conduct is criticized. His editing is very disruptive to the project. GregJackP Boomer! 01:20, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Yep, I think he opened discussions at least 3 separate article talk pages. Then he complained in his reply above that he left me three messages on my talk page. I've replied on my talk page, several times. I do not know why he is making the accusation that I am not discussing.--JOJ 01:24, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Jo, you first objected at 23:20 here asking what was going on. I replied to you four minutes later here. Instead of responding, you did all this edit warring and fighting, and never talked back. Why did you never talk back? Real question. I tried very hard to get you to talk back to me. I am still trying now. Please talk with me. Thanks Jytdog (talk) 01:31, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Nothing is wrong with Jytdog and Joesph's behavior, this is general standard COI editing examination and cleanup and I'm not sure why Jojhutton is trying to impede it. Spam and paid editing are serious problems on Misplaced Pages which need editors like Jytdog and Joesph to fix them. I see nothing wrong with opening additional threads on talk pages when an editor refuses to engage on the already open thread at WP:COIN. Meanwhile, Jojhutton's behavior could be considered both edit warring and hounding of the above editors as well as assuming bad faith. Additionally, as seen above, they have deliberately misrepresented the behavior of Jytdog and Joesph. Admins should consider a possible WP:BOOMERANG for Joj's conduct. Winner 42 Talk to me! 01:39, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I concur with Winner 42. Erpert 01:42, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I also concur - it looks like an obvious case of advertising, marketing, and promotion - all 3 of which are prohibited by WP:NOT. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 01:59, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The so-called COI account, had only a single edit to that and to any page. That edit was reverted, but is now being used as justification to delete every article that the editor edited, even though there is no longer a COI issue Thats not what is supposed to happen on Misplaced Pages. If the editors want the articles to be deleted they should request a deletion. They do not continue to redirect the articles. Plus, if there was a question over the lack of citations, then they should have made requests for those citations rather than simply deleting everything. Imagine how bad Misplaced Pages would be if we deleted everything that didn't have a citation. Request one first, then if one is not provided in a fair amount of time, then perhaps the information could be deleted.--JOJ 02:03, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with what JOJ has done here, which is trying to save content. We don't delete articles without good reason, and we don't have that here. First, the articles that are being deleted or redirected have clear notability, apparently WP:BEFORE was not done. I'm a deletionist, and even I see that this is wrong. Second, you don't move the conversation to a bunch of different venues, which is a habit of Jytdog--you pick one and discuss it there. Third, when a question comes up about deleting articles, you stop and discuss it, not continue to mass-PROD articles. GregJackP Boomer! 02:21, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there most certainly is "something wrong" with what Jojhutton has been doing. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:04, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Jojhutton, you can contest a non-discussed blanking and redirect simply by reverting. A contested blanking and redirect then must go through the other channels of deletion -- either PROD/Speedy/AfD. You can contest removal of content by reverting wth an edit summary and opening a discussion on Talk, per WP:BRD. If the content was unsourced, you can request a placement of a "refimprove" or "unreferenced" tag at the top of the article, and agree with other editors how long the article can remain largely or completely unreferenced before removal of the unsourced content. An article should ideally not be gutted without discussion while an AfD is in progress -- there should be one process at a time. Per WP:PROD, you can contest and remove a PROD simply by a talk-page or edit-summary statement and a removal of the prod tag -- you should however ideally provide reasoning somewhere, not simply remove the tag; that said, a removed PROD must not be replaced, per the statement on the template "If this template is removed, do not replace it." After that, Speedy or AfD would be the other editor's next options, and you can contest those through the normal channels (there's a button to contest on the Speedy template, and !voting on the AfD). That said, I'm not sure this needed to come to ANI. You've only mentioned two articles, and the procedures I've outlined are straightforward. Softlavender (talk) 02:24, 12 July 2015 (UTC) ETA: Discussions about article content or fate should be on the article's talk page, not elsewhere, as per usual Misplaced Pages guidelines. Softlavender (talk) 02:36, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I did only mention two of the articles here. But in fact there are probably 30 or more. The user contributions should reveal most of them.JOJ 02:55, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Here's another tip: Do not force ANI readers to do your research for you. Present adequate evidence, or don't file on ANI. Softlavender (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes I agree with Soft that the evidence presented is disrespectful of peoples time. Do not say "there is evidence trust me, now go find it" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:06, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• On first look these are high-volume, low quality edits, combined with edit warring that is destructive to the articles in question. This looks like one of those waves of strident deletion that occasionally washes up in the project. Simply deleting every piece of content for all of the shopping malls of one of America's largest developers, nominating clearly notable articles for deletion after gutting them of content, etc. because one of the editors — not the one who added all the content — has a COI, also appears to be a WP:POINT violation. I would suggest that these all be rolled back to their stable versions so that more cautious editors may discuss the matter if need be. There are also more appropriate procedures for dealing with COI. - Wikidemon (talk) 03:36, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Advocacy of all kinds is a huge issue in WP, and using Misplaced Pages for promotion violates WP:NOT. COI is one slice of it, and I work on all those issues across WP. The more I am digging into the Westfield articles, the more it is clear they have been peppered by editors promoting the individual malls and Westfield. It does come down to content. That is what the COI tag is for - to alert readers that the article itself might be biased, and to get people looking at them for NPOV and sourcing. There is so, so much unsourced, promotional content in these articles. Also hitting a nest of COi editing like this calls for multiple passes. That is what was happening and still is. Also, please note that Joseph2302 and I have different styles. He works his butt off on COI issues and I respect that a lot, but the torrent of stuff he deals with by reviewing articles at AfC makes him more quick on the trigger finger. Everything here is workable - the dramah of this ANI is not called for. Jytdog (talk) 05:41, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

"He works his butt off on COI issues"- I'd question this, I've been doing a lot less COI stuff recently, only had 4 posts there in the last week. But I also believed that what I was doing here was perfectly fine, Misplaced Pages is not a business directory for these stores, like most of those 30 pages are. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:59, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Joseph your work at AfC is amazing and so, so needed, and I know you encounter mountains of promotional editing there, that you prevent from entering WP. I for one am very grateful for that work you do. Jytdog (talk) 14:49, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

What are the notability rules regarding shopping malls? Is there a minimum size, or is it more about news coverage? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:28, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

There is an old failed proposal at Misplaced Pages:Notability (shopping centers). Although the proposal had a long way to go before it could be workable, particularly by today's standards, some of the discussion on the talk page is useful in seeing the issues around shopping centers. Failing that I think we default to WP:CORP, and just conventions on how mall articles seem to be written. I would think that most any still-extant prominent regional mall would meet the general notability guideline, as malls are the sort of enterprises that business press loves to cover: their owners, history, construction, financing, economic success, etc. Lists and links of tenants may or may not be useful, that becomes a stylistic convention (as it does with prominent buildings), freeway intersections, etc. That sort of information can be hard to fact check and maintain, though. Mall articles can be magnets for all kinds of cruft: promotions, concerts that happen there, minor crime incidents, somebody's favorite store. - Wikidemon (talk) 06:50, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Seeing Softlavender's comments below, it looks like the standards for malls are not very firm, and maybe it's time they were pinned down. As you say, big malls which get a lot of press certainly seem notable, and their histories are easier to cover; even if their histories are primary sources, their bare bones facts (e.g. time line) could be expected to be reliable. The pictures from the two initial examples at the start of this discussion appear to be a standard sized mall and something smaller. Unless a given standard or small mall is special for some reason, it's hard to justify its inclusion. One thing for sure to be avoided is lists of stores at a mall (except maybe anchor stores), as the retail business is notoriously fluid and would require frequent updating. Linking to a given mall's directory should provide a recent list. Likewise, linking to a given corporate mall owner's site should provide a list of their malls, so having separate articles for each of their properties regardless of size, seems excessive. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:10, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

As there wasn't a shopping-mall specific guideline, I was applying WP:CORP, but also I was also suggesting that the current business directory-like articles be removed, and when someone writes a proper, neutral tone, well-sourced article, then I'd have no problems with that. The fact is that multiple editors over many years have been spamming over 30 Westfield Group articles, and this is enough IMO to TNT these articles. Also, after I got reverted, I stopped trying to redirect articles. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:39, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

There's an underlying content issue with business-related articles that sometimes becomes a behavior / process problem when people act on it too stridently, and that is this. Neutral, factual information about business matters — things like reporting revenue, company history, funding, a list of people and companies and products — sounds like advertising or promotion to some people, perhaps because if they're not familiar with that world they don't see it done. So if they see a list of stores, or some information about which developers got together with which investors, they reflexively delete it, assume there is COI, and lord over articles deleting sections, doing mass deletion nominations and section blanking, applying unrealistic sourcing standards, etc. When the methods become battle-ish, drama ensues. I can't say if this is going to happen here, but I do think that if any established, sensible editors oppose the deletion of a bunch of content across multiple articles it needs to be approached cautiously and incrementally, not with a "nuke it without mercy because we're right about policy" approach. - Wikidemon (talk) 15:31, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

while, in some circumstances, "revenue, company history, funding, a list of people and companies and products " may be "neutral and factual" - in real life and in most Misplaced Pages articles they almost always are presented in manner that is promotional and non-neutral.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:39, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I rest my case! I say that humorously, but one person's spam is truly another person's business news. Real advertising and promotion done by actual PR operatives (or copied by fans or overenthusiastic editors) is a lot easier to spot and more black and white than articles that simply seem to pro-business, product-review, or business listing-like to some.. Accusing real editors of engaging in advertising and promotion (even indirectly, by describing their content as such), like accusing them of being "paid shills", frames the discussion in an unhelpful way that does lead to battlegrounds. - Wikidemon (talk) 16:08, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Whether shills are being paid or doing it for free, whether they are good at it or bad at it, whether they like being identified as shills or bristle at being called out, doesnt matter. WP:NOTADVERT and WP:NPOV are policy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly the hostile approach I was cautioning against! From experience I would say the majority of advert tags and complaints on business articles are inapt, many placed by editors who consider a neutral account of business facts that does not include negative stuff to be inherently promotional — too pro-business, perhaps? - Wikidemon (talk) 23:55, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Wikidemon responding to your comment above and the one above that... which I am taking as relevant to this thread, and what you think may have been motivating me and/or Joseph. I agree that there is lot of inapt editing related to businesses that I think derives from the kinds of things that are generally important to people who volunteer their time here. (I am pretty... respectful of "business" in general - it is just about getting things done in the real world - getting resources together and making plans and executing on them, to make products available, provide jobs, and yes, make money. None of those are bad things to me - they are good things. ~Part~ of why some editors are suspicious of me is that I often write about that kind of stuff.) When policies and guidelines are applied according to their spirit (and of course letter) one can write about noteworthy business matters in a non-promotional manner. It is rare but possible. My point, is that my COI work is not coming from an anti-business perspective.

There is loads of abuse of Misplaced Pages by people who come here to try to make money - or raise money through donations - by promoting their organization/service/product. And tons of people who abuse WP for other kinds of advocacy, of which COI is just a subset. Which is what led me to working on COI/advocacy issues broadly across WP, outside the areas I like to edit. Like I said, just replying about where I actually am coming from, in case that is what you were discussing. If you weren't, sorry for the intrusion. Jytdog (talk) 01:46, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog is no stranger to abusing COIN because of his overzealous behavior and haranguing of others. It's an issue that must be dealt with because as we've seen, he pursues COI to the point he becomes lord over WP, bullying and intimidating editors, determining what articles stay, who will or won't be exposed and there are no limits to how deep he will probe into your personal life, all the while acting with impunity while the spotlight is turned away from his own controversial editing and suite of articles claiming no COI. As others are suggesting here and at ARBCOM where the diffs will support my claims here, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Abuse_of_COIN, it's time for Jytdog to back away for a while, if not voluntarily then with a determination by consensus. Atsme 16:29, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Look at the evidence: Jyt tags the article and explains the COI issues on the talk page . One of the account with the COI has been blocked

Looking at the article before this event took place. It was mostly unreffed . Often those involved with paid editing use a large number of socks. When one sees one paid editor it is not unusual to find a lot more probable paid accounts that have also worked on the same article.

We are not an unreferenced business directory. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:23, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

There is something wrong here, but it is on Jytdog. Note that in the current WP:RFAR#Abuse of COIN that Risker poined out However, I do wish to draw to the attention of the Committee this report at ANI involving Jytdog. Many of the articles involved have been present on Misplaced Pages for several years before there were any COI edits to them, and shopping mall articles are, often as not, considered to meet the GNG. There is a pattern of behaviour here, not simply isolated to this case. at , noting that the COI editor made one edit on a factual matter, and not at all on the material that Jytdog was deleting wholesale , and sitting ArbCom member Thryduulf commented that he would recommend that Jytdog take a break from COI or he would not be surprised to see a topic ban in that area.

I don't have a problem if an article needs to be gutted and rewritten. I just did it to one that was longer than all of my featured articles. The difference is that if you are going to look at an article for problems, determine that there is first a real problem (see Risker's comment above about one COI edit), then do something to fix it. That means more than merely hanging a tag on the article if you are going to gut it outside of wikipolicy. Or tag it with citation needed, or something. You don't just wholesale delete articles. GregJackP Boomer! 18:15, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

There was no "wholesale deleting of articles". Only admins can delete articles. And you have clearly not looked at these mall articles closely, which have been subject to a bunch of conflicted editing and most importantly, are full of unsourced content - they have content problems, which is what matters. Jytdog (talk) 19:44, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I believe I've already addressed that a number of people have told you that you are going too far with this, including a former Arb and a current Arb. GregJackP Boomer! 20:08, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I remember the original MallExpert account, and he wrote a lot of directory entries. Seems this has become dramatically worse when the account was handed over to a new flack. Bad idea. Guy (Help!) 23:25, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Question about process

Responding in part of Risker's comment at the bottom of the subsection below.. The suite of Westfield shopping center articles is/was full of unsourced, promotional, and I'll add here - clearly outdated - content that often violated WP:NOTDIRECTORY.

What unfolded at COIN, is what often happens there. The initial posting was made by an editor I haven't seen at COIN before, calling the community's attention to a problem (Malleditor), and was bare bones, citing just one article. When the paid editor posted at COIN and made it clear that this was a truly "corporate account" that he/she had taken over from another employee, it was clear to that there was probably a long-term problem that called for further looking-into. I started looking at their contribs, and in the meantime, an admin blocked the account, taking care of that account - the editor. Shortly thereafter I fleshed out the list of articles that editor had worked on so the folks who work at COIN would have an easy way to look at them. We do that at COIN - we follow up and look at content after COI issues with the editor have been addressed - we look at the content for compliance with content policy. Content is what matters. As I built the list of articles at COIN, I made a first pass over each article, tagging the article with the template:COI so that editors there would be alerted to possible NPOV/sourcing problems, and also added the template:connected contributor and template:COI editnotice tags to the Talk page, along with a brief section explaining the tag on the article. Right away Joseph started doing his thing, working off the list I had just built at COIN, and I started doing mine, which are different, on the articles one by one.

For me, it was a second pass. In each article, I looked at the history and checked contribs of some of the editors, and listed editors I found who were SPAs or otherwise likely editors with a COI on the Talk page as connected contributors, and in the articles removed unsourced content per WP:VERIFY and/or WP:NOTDIRECTORY, which I acknowledge did effectively gut most of them. A few of them were actually pretty decent and I barely did anything to them. Each article gets its own look. I added some content and sourcing to a few. I nominated a couple for speedy and PRODed a couple of others; I tracked what I was doing at COIN, as you can see there. I noted some that seemed apt for a group AfD and that I would have looked at, on yet a third pass.

That is the general process we have been doing at COIN for a while now for articles affected by disclosed paid editing or disclosed COI like this. (The process is quite different when there is a concern about possible COI, based on editing behavior - that is an entirely different situation)

I would be interested in feedback on that process. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 01:43, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Some thoughts, since I got pinged above:

• Generally speaking, these situations are never "emergencies". The encyclopedia does not fall apart because someone who is (or might be) related to the subject of a specific article might have made some edits to the article. There is almost always time to actually look at the article, identify the edits by the COI editor, and determine the severity of the situation. Older articles with lots of subsequent edits may already have eradicated any problematic edits, and factual information/typo fixing/grammar does not warrant a COI tag. While we don't encourage COI editors to do even minor housekeeping, they're not contravening policy or ToU by doing so.
• The COI tag you are using is inappropriate if you do not review the article beforehand: it says that whoever had the COI is a "major contributor" to the article. Without reviewing the article history, you don't know that, so you shouldn't be using that tag.
• Editing 101 applies. Many of the articles that were involved in your recent sweep you gutted instead of marking as needing additional references, having information that needed to be updated, etc. The redirects are probably better sent to AfD instead of being redirected. (As I've noted elsewhere, malls seem to have had some weird cachet around here since even before I started editing.)
• I'm going to say this again. This is not an emergency. Take the time to review the article and the potential COI edits before doing any tagging.
• If there is a relevant and active Wikiproject for the topic area, consider asking the members to review for COI problems and let them handle the situation.
• There are at least a half-dozen situations I'm aware of where subject matter experts were accused of COI and the articles they had edited were negatively affected. Don't do that. That's what led to the uprising on the legal articles. The majority of editors in the Medicine wikiproject are medical professionals. A significant percentage of editors in the Law wikiprojects are lawyers. Most of the Mathematics project are mathematicians. They do not have an inherent COI.
• If you're bringing someone to COIN, make your statement and then let others determine the appropriate course. The line between collaboration and tag teaming can be pretty fine sometimes.
• It is absolutely going to break my heart to have to write this...but sometimes articles that have been written by people with a COI (including the biggie, undisclosed paid advocacy editing) are about notable subjects. Given our abnormally low bar for notability, even good and experienced editors operating in a topic area with which they have limited familiarity may well be unable to accurately assess the significance of the COI issues in the article.
• The Number 1 reason that we have so much COI editing is the fact that the community has avoided raising the bar for notability for years. The effect is to open the doors wide to anyone who can make decent edits and fly under the radar while creating articles about companies that don't mention revenue, employees, market share, etc.; BLPs on businesspeople and artists and non-European/North American performers that *might* meet the bottom rung of the notability ladder; and products that sound impressive - particularly technology products - again without market share, sales, significant clients, etc. We have created this cottage industry ourselves by refusing to raise the bar and then actually doing the work to keep it in place. The people who create these articles are really hard to track down (trust me on this - some investigations take weeks if not months), and their accounts aren't particularly obvious unless one has a very questioning mind. The folks at COIN are well-intentioned, but they're never going to get past what we consider to be obvious situations (e.g., the people who do actually acknowledge a COI). Even then, most of those issues don't look problematic from the view of the reader.

End of the day, COIN like many other areas of the project is wanting for a large enough group of active participants to address the requests that come in without it becoming dependent on just a few people. It needs more eyes, which will directly change some of the less-than-optimal habits that have developed. And we really, really need to raise the bar on notability so that we can cut off a lot of the COI/paid advocacy editing at the knees. Risker (talk) 02:39, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate you taking the time to write this. I really do. I agree that raising the bar on notability would benefit the project and eliminate a bunch of bad editing - including COI and other advocacy editing. (At WP:MED we apply the MEDRS standard for health content, which is a pretty high sourcing standard, and that does wonders for keeping bad content, including COI and other advocacy content, out.) Thanks for your thoughts on the COI template... I need to think about using that template differently. And I will consider the Project suggestion - that is a great idea - although that would have done no good here since the shopping center project is pretty dead, as you noted. Thank you for the advice about posting at COIN and getting out of the way. And I agree that even paid editors sometimes create articles about notable topics. (Not sure why you are mentioning that.) I agree that more folks working at COIN - sane and experienced folks - would be very helpful.

That said.... I didn't redirect any articles and I generally don't do that working on COI issues. And I don't understand why you state twice that there was no emergency. I never thought there was one. That is just strange to me, for you to emphasize. Maybe you could explain that a bit?

Most importantly, about the bullet starting with "There are at least a half-dozen situations I'm aware of where subject matter experts were accused of COI and the articles they had edited were negatively affected. Don't do that." There is some "does your mom know you beat your wife" in that. I never "accuse" anyone of a COI. I inform editors who have disclosed a relationship that creates a COI, that they have a COI and what WP:COI says they should do, and try and have a discussion with them about that - a real one, or I ask them if they have a relevant relationship, again in the context of having an authentic discussion. I always start that one-one-one with people on their talk pages, and only if that breaks down do I bring it to COIN (or if there is some big multi-article article issue that needs more help). The way you write it makes it sounds like I "pronounce" on people and I don't do that. I really ask you to hear me. I am very aware that COI is just a guideline and one that is fairly detested by a chunk of the community. I am very aware that getting people to comply with the COI guideline cannot be done with a bludgeon - by pounding on them - it takes persuasion. I am very aware of that. And I want to retain editors. I want conflicted editors to learn to comply with policies and guidelines. And almost all - literally - almost all - of the one-on-one discussions go very well. Many times editors have thanked me for treating them with respect, teaching them how to edit with a COI, and welcoming them. Sometimes those discussions explode or otherwise go south, but those are (surprisingly, depending on your view of humanity) rare. So to a certain extent you seem to talking to or about someone else - not to or about me. (there is WP:BLPCOI which is a policy handle, but that does come up a lot at COIN)

With regard to the subject matter experts you reference.... if you are talking about subject matter experts who write about themselves and their work - that is a section of the COI guideline - people who do that, have a COI per the guideline. (Based on what you have written to me before, I understand that you might define COI pretty narrowly - almost limited to people who are literally paid to edit WP - and this may be one of the things you are disagreeing with the most) If you are talking about subject matter experts who run idea-based businesses and write about the ideas that underlie their business, from my perspective they have a clear COI. But you seemed to disagree with me about that at some point as well. So - I think we might disagree especially on what constitutes a COI in WP. This part, I imagine will be an interesting discussion, and is much bigger than you or me. Jytdog (talk) 03:20, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Why make another tag? The purpose of the COI tag at the top of the article is to warn readers that there is actually a problem with the article. If, on review, there are no COI edits that negatively affect the article (they've either been eradicated or they're minor housekeeping things within policy) or they are less than 1% of the existing article at the time you first encounter it, then you're not helping the reader - the actual target of the tag. We do not use article space to shame editors; I realise that you don't understand this, but as a reader, if the only COI you can point to is "well, this guy wrote something in 2006 which is no longer here, and that guy added the date of birth with a link"... I'd think you were exaggerating by suggesting there was a problem with the article. There are times where a good chunk of the article (if not the whole thing) is written by someone with a COI; that's when the article needs to be tagged.
• The COI tag I removed was placed by you, and based on what you have said above, you hadn't even read the article sufficiently to figure out out how much of its current content was COI. That is the kind of action I would expect to see someone to take if they felt there was a genuinely urgent or very important situation that needed to be immediately drawn to the attention of the 20 readers a day who stumbled onto the article (an "emergency"). It turns out that none of the three hypothetically COI editors had much to do with the article as it existed when you first tagged the article. The tag wasn't necessary at all, in fact, but you rushed to apply it before even having sufficient facts to justify it. This is the sort of automatic action that I refer to when I say "take your time". If it takes a few days to sort things out, it's fine. There's no crisis here.
• Ironically, I actually have a far more expansive opinion on what constitutes a COI, but it is one that neither the WMF nor a significant portion of the editing population want to consider. I've already had those discussions, and I'm not going to waste my breath having them again.
• On the other hand, I worry a great deal about the really shoddy way we treat the subjects of our biographical material. A shockingly large number of these articles are unbalanced and negative, and any attempt on the part of the subject to raise concerns is beaten back, often using COI as a stick. Just as it is far too easy to get some articles into Misplaced Pages (COI or not), it is also far too easy to turn those articles into weapons, to load lightly-watched articles with tabloid material, and to allow editors who have too much vested in certain articles (or, as I sometimes say, to have a COI that doesn't involve money) to run roughshod over anyone who tries to improve the situation. Most of our editors are conflict-averse and just stay away. These are big picture issues.
• It is often difficult for people to "hear" how they come across. There is an element to the tone of at least some of what you write that comes across as "the sky is falling". There's also an element of doggedness (Atsme as an obvious example) where your insistence on "proving" the COI and demanding that others (including the person with COI) share your assessment of the nature and extent of the COI becomes harmful - to the other party, to you, to the impression that people have of how COI is being addressed, and in the long run to the encyclopedia. In fairness, I'm certain most people have a hard time really understanding how others perceive them; it's not just you. Risker (talk) 04:16, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks again. I am hearing the last thing from several quarters and I need to take that on board. Thanks for that. I do realize that I became shrill in the Atsme matter and the other matter that ended up at your Talk page. I know it probably sounds ludicrous but those were each exceptions to how things usually go. I also know that people end up getting defined in WP by their worst moments. And that there is validity to that.

I cannot figure out your view on COI. I understand not wanting to take the time to yet-again explain but could you ballpark point me to some places where you laid it out (board or article, time frame, subject matter) so I can go find it? I would like to understand you, and you have been here a long time and written a lot.

Thanks for explaining about the "emergency" thing and the issues with the tag. I hear that and am taking the "COI" tag objection on board. Thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 10:25, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

fwiw is working on Westfield, is a SPA, and is someone I would generally approach and ask about their relationship with Westfield. I will do that, if you all want to watch. Jytdog (talk) 11:42, 14 July 2015 (UTC) (strike, too weird. Jytdog (talk) 11:57, 14 July 2015 (UTC))

• Questions: I have two questions: (1) If it is there, is there a way of leaving in the history of the mall in the article? (That won't get outdated; historical facts are historical facts -- it may lack updating but the history will not change; plus it is useful info for the reader.) That is, if the article details some history, even if currently inadequately referenced or unreferenced? Likewise for any other neutral putative facts that are not now definitely incorrect. (2) Is there a way of differentiating COI SPA mall-editors from non-COI SPA mall editors? It's possible that some editors may simply have a specific interest in malls -- either the malls in their area, or malls in general, or malls of a specific corporation (obviously the latter is a bit of a red flag, and DUCK should probably apply). I personally think malls are boring and non-notable, but I think the same about a lot of food articles that are on WP, so I'm probably more inclined to let information stay unless it is clear promotionalism and/or against Misplaced Pages policy, or unless at AfD the specific subject proves not to meet notability guidelines. Anyway, just thinking aloud.

(Also: I think the unfortunate issue at hand is that when met with such a large subject area, Jytdog feels the weight of so much overwhelming COI to address on WP that he's doing what he perceives to be the best he can by overly rapidly 'cleaning up' the large swaths that very few people are looking at or helping with. Is it an emergency? No. Is anyone else looking at or helping with these very large but under-the-radar low-profile subjects? Rarely, but there needs to be some kind of way to alert people that he needs help in the area. It seems to me he is attempting to close out one large subject arena so he can move on to others. So much COI, so little time .... which is understandable.) Softlavender (talk) 04:00, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi softlavender. not sure what you are asking about on the first one. On the second, for current editors, I would first look at their contribs and see if they disclose a relationship - people often do in edit notes or in talk or question boards off the article and its talk page. if there is no definitive (and I mean definitive self-disclosure), i just ask them if they have a relationship with the subject at their talk page. If they clearly say they have none, i warn them about SPA and advocacy (since it was SPA promotion that called my attention to them) and let it go. For no-longer-active editors, the same process, except you can't ask them.... And thanks for the understanding in your last remarks. Jytdog (talk) 11:46, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• I would like to emphasize what Risker has said:

• There are at least a half-dozen situations I'm aware of where subject matter experts were accused of COI and the articles they had edited were negatively affected. Don't do that. I can't say it any better, and can point to In re Alappat as an example, where you followed an editor who you initially came into contact with on an alleged COI issue.
• That's what led to the uprising on the legal articles. Exactly. You need to slow down when you have multiple experienced editors in a distinct field tell you that you are wrong. I don't edit in the MEDRS field because I don't have the background to do so. I tried that once, in the Climate Change area, doing everything wrong. I did WP:BATTLEGROUND; WP:STICK; WP:DICK. I ended up being sanctioned by ArbCom and indef'ed (by Risker), and later had a chance to come back, then later to get my restrictions removed. I now stay away from areas that I don't have expertise and I listen when others talk. No one is asking you to stay away from legal articles, but you do need to listen more.
• The majority of editors in the Medicine wikiproject are medical professionals. A significant percentage of editors in the Law wikiprojects are lawyers. Most of the Mathematics project are mathematicians. They do not have an inherent COI. I don't try and correct someone like Doc James on medical issues or sources. He is a subject-matter expert (SME) and I don't have the needed expertise to dispute his point of view. PraeceptorIP is a SME on intellectual property law. You do not have the needed expertise to determine if something is OR or an accurate summary of the opinion/literature. Ask, don't tag and demand. And don't follow him around tagging every article he edits.
• Please listen to what Risker and Softlavender are saying, they are giving you good advice. GregJackP Boomer! 17:40, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Sidebar: Shopping mall notability

(Hi, I wrote and attempted to post this before or while Wikidemon posted the above on the same topic; I'll leave it as I wrote it.)

I think a lot of clarity needs to be hammered out here in terms of what constitutes notability for a shopping mall(s) on Misplaced Pages, and what sources qualify as references, and what constitutes puffery or promotionalism. This seems a fairly insular topic (it doesn't have the scrutiny or referencing that individual companies, businesses, or corporations have), and obviously there is some disagreement about all of these issues by several editors here -- whether they have expertise in the topic or not. At some point, for instance, the various individual malls owned by Westfield in the United States were deemed notable enough for Njbob to create a navbox of them in 2009: Template:Westfield United States. I'm not sure the discovery of one minimally active declared COI editor, or even two or three, constitutes a rationale for gutting and/or AfDing all of the articles just because they currently lack the standard of referencing that most WP articles would benefit from. The relevant Wikiproject is apparently (the fairly inactive) Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Shopping Centers, so I am going to post a notification of this discussion on the talk page there to see if any project members wish to opine. Softlavender (talk) 06:56, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Softlavender attention of the community gets called to articles in any number of ways - the activities of the declared account (shared by more than one editor) has led us to look at these articles carefully. What has turned up so far is that many of them were created by a SPA and have been subject to promotional editing by IP and some named editors. But what matters is that they are (now "were" for some of them) full of unsourced, promotional content much of which violates WP:NOTDIRECTORY. The point of the COI tag is to call attention to content - to NPOV and sourcing issues in the tagged article; almost all of the articles had problems with both. Content is what matters at the end of the day. Absolutely. Jytdog (talk) 15:41, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Softlavender you are absolutely correct. The real puffery and promotionalism goes unnoticed more often than not while basic information is targeted because of the notability of the subject. For example Red_Bull, and Red_Bull_GmbH. Are we seeing puffery? Promotionalism? Undoubtedly. It looks like one big advertisement for the company and its product yet editors will strip credentials and certifications from an internationally renowned doctor as puffery. It doesn't make any sense. Until we get those issues resolved, we will continue to see issues here, at AN and at COIN. Perhaps it's time to update GNG? Atsme 17:39, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:CORP says ... please consider whether they have had any significant or demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, .... Some people argue (on this page and on AfD pages referenced above) that malls are inherently notable because they replace traditional town squares, which have been important as cultural and economic centers throughout history. I think that's a very good reason why the abstract concept of a mall, the development of mall architecture, and the prevalence (rise and fall) of malls are notable, but not necessarily any individual mall. Malls are pieces of managed real estate, like apartment buildings. Unfortunately the current level of emotion here would probably hinder the creation of a good standard for mall notability at this time. The WikiProject should have been a good place to develop such a standard, but that seems unlikely to happen given the dearth of activity there. Nevertheless, we could try. Would that actually resolve this incident, though? --Unready (talk) 21:17, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• Personally speaking, I believe that there are huge swaths of the encyclopedia where we ought to be significantly increasing our baseline for notability; it's a considered opinion based on years of dealing with conflicted editors, horrible and unbalanced BLPs where the subject (if they dare to complain) is trampled on, school articles whose main purpose seems to be giving students a place to troll their peers, seeing experienced editors fight to keep articles about barely notable subjects for what are obviously personal reasons, and just plain a whole pile of dreck. On the other hand, the community has repeatedly shown itself to be very inclusive in certain topic areas that I'd wipe out in a heartbeat. Personally, I don't think there are very many malls that are notable. The community has repeatedly said that most of them are. I've gotten over it, and I suggest that others get over it, or take that argument to the notability guidelines or to the AfDs that have been started. This discussion doesn't belong on this noticeboard, though; I'm also pretty sure it doesn't belong on the COI noticeboard either. Conflict of interest and notability are two separate concepts, even when a conflict of interest involves a borderline notable article subject. Indeed, that's one of my biggest concerns with the actions that were taken over the last few days with respect to malls: the opinion of one or two editors has supplanted the longstanding opinion of the community about this particular topic area, without seeking to actually change that opinion. I suggest that this subsection be closed and the discussion redirected to where it belongs, which is clearly not here. Risker (talk) 04:11, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Malls are the new schools?> Seriously? I can see why people fight to include schools, but shopping malls? I have travelled pretty extensively and can say with some confidence that in most malls it is not possible to tell what city you're in - and sometimes even what continent. Guy (Help!) 23:22, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

What he said. BMK (talk) 01:46, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Malls aren't the new schools. They've been around and being considered more or less notable since at least 2005. It's just you've never noticed them. I can think of at least 15 malls within an hour's drive that would easily pass GNG. (That probably says more about the ridiculously low bar that GNG sets than it does about the malls, though.) In some places, they're amongst the location's major employers and highest-revenue businesses. Again, that doesn't mean *I* think they're notable. But to reiterate, articles about a lot of malls have passed AFD since at least 2005. Risker (talk) 02:01, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Back in 2006-2007 I spent many hours tracking AFDs on shopping malls and posted a table of results at the talk page of Misplaced Pages:Notability (shopping centers), a proposed (but ultimately failed) notability guideline. There were then hundreds of "superregional " malls, over 800,000 square feet of gross leasable area, in the US, and tens of thousands of regional and smaller malls, right down to the strip mall 4 blocks from my house. The superregional standard was one used by the industry, and not some arbitrary term or size picked by a Misplaced Pages editor. The superregional malls include some which receive national coverage. They were rarely if ever found not to be notable in AFDs. Some editors in discussions at AFDs and at the talk page I mentioned felt that large malls were not eqvilane to corporations, since they had a definite geographic location, while corporations were basically a cloud. They also functioned like a downtown business district in that they were a venue for other corporations to make money and for people to shop or congregate. Then as now, many editors just like to create articles about some particular subject,(God bless all the trainspotters and those who like roads, hamlets, long-dead nobles, insect species,actors, musicians, generals, Congressmen, warships or sports figures) and it is unreasonable to assert that all mall article creators must have a conflict of interest, or that any article which says how big a mall is, where it is what company owns it, and what its anchor stores are is "advertising." That is setting a higher standard for one type of subject than for others.It boils down to the existence of independent reliable sources with significant coverage (and each of those words gets quibbled and sophistry by those with a grudge against or a liking for a particular subject area). Major malls can have significant economic and even cultural impacts on their regions. Tagging poorly referenced or unreferenced articlae about malls is the proper course, and a large-scale campaign of gutting the content,then PRODing it, or sending it to AFD in its gutted form is disruptive and should lead to a topic ban. Edison (talk) 22:12, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Two hidden sections (this added for ease of editing only)

Suggestion to Jytdog and GregJackP

Before this discussion goes any further off the rails, how about the two of you, informally and voluntarily, just agree to try to steer clear of one another for a while? There is too much mutual battlefielding here, and you would both be best served by just dropping it. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:59, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• Atsme, Jytdog, and then GregJackP in defense against Jytdog's unwarranted boomerang proposal, have hijacked this thread with their own unrelated agendas and grievances. I suggest we hat their obvious digressions (they can take them elsewhere and start their own threads apart from this one) and return this discussion to what it is about: the fate of this large group of mall articles, and the appropriateness of two editors apparently tag-teaming to gut and/or AfD them, for reasons that may or may not follow WP guidelines. The way to settle the matter is not to boomerang someone who neither started the thread nor said anything untoward or battleground-y in it. I don't believe Jytdog should be removed from the COIN board (he does good work there), but nor should he blatantly misdirect a thread questioning his actions by throwing an uninvolved person under the bus. Softlavender (talk) 01:41, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

UPDATE: I have taken the liberty of doing so, at least on the J-G threads. If someone wants to move those two threads to their own thread outside of this, that's fine, but they are completely unrelated to this thread. Softlavender (talk) 02:12, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm fine with going back to the original reason for the discussion, the various malls. As long as he's not making false accusations against me that I have to respond to, I'm good with just continuing to work on legal articles. GregJackP Boomer! 02:25, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, BMK reverted my hatting. Do people think the two interminable and unrelated "proposal" threads should be hatted or moved elsewhere, or not? I don't really have a dog in this fight, but the threads are hijacks and completely obscure the point of the OP's thread. Softlavender (talk) 03:35, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

There is no need to have several threads ongoing simultaneously dealing with, essentially, the same issue. We're here, let's try to get things settled here.BMK (talk) 03:43, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

It's not the same issue at all, or even anything related to the same issue, and in fact has nothing to do with the OP issue -- Jytdog does not even mention GregJackP's behavior or points in this thread, which have been very mild and prudent. It's an absurd attempt to hijack this thread about mall articles by attacking an editor who neither opened the thread nor did anything whatsoever actionable or even questionable in it. I understand from your !vote comment that there is antipathy between you and GregJackP, but don't let that blind you to that fact that the boomerang sub-thread is a completely trumped-up and irrelevant side-show that belongs in its own separate thread (if anywhere), because it does not even reference this thread or anything in it. If you look at the time stamps, GregJackP had made exactly two brief comments to the OP's thread , before Jytdog posted his lengthy and unrelated "boomerang" sub-thread . Softlavender (talk) 04:30, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree they should be hatted or closed or moved. Both sanction proposals have roughly zero chance of approval unless one of their subjects flies off the handle here, would not stand if anyone declared them approved, are irrelevant to and distract from the discussion, and do no good for the editors proposing them. - Wikidemon (talk) 04:36, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I was willing to walk away from it, but I have a problem that I make two minor comments on the original topic when Jtydog posts a wall of text alleging all sorts of BS. Beyond My Ken, exactly how are any of the links he included in this statement "he just attacked me personally here and here and here and here and here" a personal attack? Since when is stating that I have consensus a personal attack? Or responding to his repeated passive-aggressive behavior - now that's a personal attack? How is pointing out that he misquoted another editor a personal attack? Or explaining that when 4 editors are in agreement and you're the only one that isn't - how is that a personal attack? Or explaining consensus yet again - is somehow a personal attack? I was just as happy when Softlavender hatted it off, but I'll be happy to let the community look at all of the material. Should we notify everyone that has been in a conflict with Jytdog? Or should we hat this off, again? GregJackP Boomer! 04:49, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

As per your usual behavior, you can do whatever will create the most drama, if that's what you wish to do. But if you WP:CANVASS -- that is, notify editors only on one side of the issue -- you will be called on it, and will risk facing sanctions for doing so. On the other hand, if you hat these discussions again, I will unhat them, for the same reason that I unhatted Softlavender's hatting, because the behavior of all parties is subject to scrutiny once an AN/I report has been open. I know you didn't open this one, but you certainly entered it like gangbusters, blasting Jytdog immediately, making your position crystal clear, and making it quite obvious that you are a strongly involved editor, not in any way an univolved commentator. If you think that you now can back away with a discussion about consequences, you're mistaken. BMK (talk) 05:18, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Okay people, enough. The encyclopedia will benefit from *everyone* taking this down a couple of notches. Risker (talk) 05:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. BMK, we've got three out of four people so far here who think they should be hatted or moved, (plus Tryptofish at the top who agrees the sub-threads are de-railing the discussion, and the two people in the proposal !votes themselves that agree they should not be there); that's a consensus so far, and Misplaced Pages operates by consensus. Perhaps the two of you (GJP and BMK -- and that goes equally for you GJP; you are the one who began stirring the pot just now above) could take the advice offered by Tryptofish to GJP and Jytdog above. Both of the silly proposals have been roundly opposed, and they are both clogging up the thread and distracting from the issue at hand. They can be moved elsewhere if they are that useful (but they probably aren't as evidenced by the snowing opposes). Softlavender (talk) 05:45, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm completely willing to walk away, just as I stated earlier. I don't know (or care) what BMK has against me, but I'm not the one that created the additional drama here by unhatting this. I'm perfectly fine with doing other things instead of responding to bogus accusations against me. GregJackP Boomer! 06:06, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Propose hatting the two un-called-for proposal sub-threads (which hatting already has consensus), plus also this good-faith "Suggestion" subthread, so we can all get back to resolving the issue at hand. Softlavender (talk) 06:27, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

  I did the first one. I'm involved in the second one. Makes sense to me not to hide the third until the second is done. --Unready (talk) 07:53, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

  OK, I did the same on the second one; I was not involved in that one. Softlavender (talk) 08:34, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• I'm late to the party, but I would be happy to steer clear of GregJackP and am OK with the hatting of both threads. Jytdog (talk) 11:47, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Violation of the article Utigurs

• 78.159.147.70 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• Utigurs (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

--Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 18:49, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

I want to bring to your attention the behavior of user 78.159.147.70 toward the article "Utigurs". He has been deleting almost the entire article (including parts supported by academic sources) several times after 11/07/2015 without any real explanation.

Thank you. 93.152.143.113 (talk) 18:46, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• @Winner 42: any comments on your end about this IP? --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:01, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
  • @IJBall: Not particularly, just came across them while Huggling a few weeks ago. It looked like drive-by vandalism at the time, mass changes from one term to another with the removal of sourced content are almost always vandalism, but now I am not entirely sure. Winner 42 Talk to me! 20:34, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Violation of the article Huns

Hello,

The user 78.159.147.70 has deleted newly added information on the article "Huns" supported by academic sources. He didn't really explain why.

Thank you 93.152.143.113 (talk) 21:13, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• Diff. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:40, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
• Note that IP 78.159 has done it again, though I really can't tell if there's anything "untoward" going on here. It's removing sourced content, but I don't know if it's questionable content being removed or not. I suspect the bigger issue here is the lack of communication about said edits. I suggest one of the regular editors at these two articles try to discuss with the IP on their Talk page, to see if that gets anywhere... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:26, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't think "sources" without actually providing the sources or an explanation is helpful editing. Anyone who wanders into Balkans and has a edit summary that a source is is not reliable, while changing what a source allegedly says (namely the century of a map and the earliest mention of the name) raises red flags. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:33, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

disruption is spreading

The same editors have taken the dispute to a third article, Kubrat, which was brought to RFPP. I've fully protected the page for a week to stop the insanity. I don't claim to know what's going on with Eastern European history, but we're getting into serious disruption territory and there's obviously a larger issue here. KrakatoaKatie 22:14, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I blocked the editor for a week. First, next time WP:AIV is faster than this is, especially when you don't make simple diffs here. Edits like this are unnecessarily aggressive and borderline uncivil for fairly benign editing to me. This edit largely is removing a source under the false edit summary of "Per sources". There is no "source" that justifies removing a source. Let's see if we get a response or is this another of the line of line of editors in that space. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:29, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Competence and civility issues with Koala15

• Koala15 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

My latest encounter with Koala15 was on the Ted 2 page, where I fixed a fairly simple grammatical error and was blankly reverted on sight . I reverted back with the summary "Unexplained" and he kept edit warring with the summary "Go home, your drunk" . This happened again, until General Ization issued an EW warning on my talk page, and a civility warning on Koala15's page. Koala15 repeatedly refused to apologize or even acknowledge that he was edit warring, dismissing General Ization with sentences such as "Have a sense of humor" and "There is no need for you to get so worked up over this", assuring him that he matter had been resolved, when in fact, it was not - and still is not. I explained very clearly on my talk page why I performed said edit, which prompted Koala15 to respond with a guideline that directly contradicts his edit - which I also explained. However, he refuses to "get it", while writing replies on the grammar level of a twelve year old - which I extensively tried to explain within the same discussion, examples being seeing him "use patently incorrect expressions like "more clearer", open a sentence with "hence", miss punctuation, or consistently not capitalize "I" as in first person", not to mention his first reply to me via edit summary: "Go home, your drunk".

A quick look on Koala15's talk page will reveal that he has been taunting other editors for a while, in an abrasive and unapologetic manner. A few select examples: User talk:Koala15#Reversions... , User talk:Koala15#July 2015 , User talk:Koala15#No , User talk:Koala15#Redirecting . Another example of insisting on edit warring and being rude is here. I would like to finish this nuisance on the Ted 2 page and move on, but I would like to ensure that he doesn't spite revert me again. Please take care of this matter. Misplaced Pages isn't supposed to be about this at all. Thank you very much. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 20:38, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Well i tried to work with you, but you don't seem to wanna work with me. Most of the things you are linking from my talk page are simple misunderstandings. And i don't think you can report anyone for a 'lack of competence". Koala15 (talk) 21:19, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

How ironic... you have just given another dismissive and offensive reply. You are either not realizing it or deliberately insulting me, and neither case is welcome on Misplaced Pages. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 21:24, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I have had my own run-ins with Koala15, which can be seen at Talk:Penguins of Madagascar and Penguins of Madagascar. Koala15 had initially participated in WP:OWNBEHAVIOR over a copyedit tag about the article with a reason saying "And i do think an IP's suggestion is less valid, cause the majority of them are vandals.". Not all IPs are vandals. Some contribute with no issues at all. I find that comment uncivil and rather a POV statement. They persistently removed the tag until they reached 3 reverts. They stayed quiet on the article, but they removed it again but this time with reasons but not valid ones. There was still WP:Consensus going on in the talk page, which Koala15 dismissed. Instead of participating in WP:Discussion and ask for opinions, they removed the template again. I reverted them, stating that they weren't the user who added the template and to remove it from a user who disagreed with it in the beginning is very questionable. They started edit warring, making 5 reverts within a span of 12 hours, I believe. If they reached the 6th revert, I was going to report them. My warnings can be seen on the user's talk page and PfM's talk page. In terms of Koala15, I do think they make good edits and they help the community, but my only concern is the way they act. Upon disagreements they edit war and so on, it seems. I do agree that saying a user is drunk is uncivil as much as saying to a user they need help. It seems they have had run-ins with other people, excluding me, EauZenCashHaveIt and General Ization. I would suggest a warning about continuing disruptive editing but I'm not sure. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 21:34, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Well i apologize, i shouldn't have removed those maintenance templates without asking. And i don't think its fair to say i participated in WP:OWNBEHAVIOR. Koala15 (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Per one of the bullets, "An editor reverts a change simply because the editor finds it "unnecessary" without claiming that the change is detrimental." You removed the template with this reasoning: "Uhm, yeah no." which certainly counts as you saying it's unnecessary without valid reasons and follows on of the statements "I can see nothing wrong with the article and there is no need to change anything at all." which you've given the impression (not even at this point) since the beginning and on the talk page. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 22:10, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• Note for reviewing admins: here's the last "clean" version of Koala15's talk page, before he panicked and blanked it in order to invalidate the links I brought up earlier: . EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 21:57, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, it was time they cleaned their talk page (no offense, Koala15). It was so long, over 200 posts. They kept some stuff, so I don't think it would really matter since it's their talk page. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 22:10, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The timing though... anyway, I've said too much already. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 22:18, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• First, 200 posts going all the way back to 2012 probably needs archiving (and no, archiving isn't just blanking all the warnings) but that's not the issue here. Second, Misplaced Pages:Competence is required which includes social competency. Koala15's edits are problematic. Insulting and being uncivil is a concern. Individuals who cannot corroborate effectively have been shown the door before. I'd say there's civility here but I'll let some others chime on what they think should be done. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:50, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
• Having had run-ins with Koala15 before, some of which have been referenced in this post, I thought I'd also chime in. While their edits themselves are not disruptive or problematic, aside from a lack of edit summary usage, Koala15's conduct towards other users is condescending, patronizing and downright rude in some cases. On multiple occasions I have been told by the user that I don't understand Misplaced Pages, ("You don't understand the guidelines") and that I'm a newbie who interprets policies wrong ("I understand that you are new here, but you seem to lack a simple understanding of the rules of Misplaced Pages."), which if anyone else has been on the receiving end of, would know that it's incredibly frustrating. Initially I thought I was the only one to be scolded as deluded by Koala15, but apparently I'm not the only one. A quick CNTRL+F searching for the word "understand" on an old revision of their talk page shows three distinct immediate instances where Koala15 downplayed other editors, brushing them off as not understanding some aspect of the project: I'm not even gonna bother responding to this nonsense, cause you clearly don't even have a basic understanding of Misplaced Pages., "Once again you show that you don't understand the guidelines." and "It sounds like you don't understand Misplaced Pages." and "You are possibly the most clueless editor i have ever met.". While Koala15's talk page only showed a few instances of their incivility, I imagine I wasn't the first to be insulted on their talk page or via edit summaries. A block doesn't seem appropriate to me, and would quite possibly chase Koala15 away, given how bitter and angry they already come off with a near-clean block log, but an assurance from the user that the'll try and be more civil and get off their high horse would be nice. Azealia911 _talk 10:36, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Box-office bomb guy, block evasion from Cambridge, Ontario, Canada

A person from Cambridge, Ontario, was blocked for one month for persistent disruptive editing: Special:Contributions/99.236.110.158. One of the stand-out traits of this person is the labelling of films as "box-office bombs" regardless of whether they have been called that by sources. Starting in December 2014, this person kept being reverted. User:CoolRaceDude picked up the flag for a little while in February 2015. Abandoning the registered account, this guy also edited articles related to the Canadian band, Gob (band), and he was active at List of films considered the worst.

Other IPs from the same area have been doing the same stuff:

• 173.32.90.158 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 216.75.167.197 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))

Here's an older (almost stale) IP doing the same stuff:

• 99.254.160.115 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))

For instance, the article Reign Over Me is a particular target, the goal being to label the film as a bomb, a flop, a financial failure (even though it made a couple of million dollars). User:Willondon's been doing a great job of keeping down this kind of disruption:

• 99.236.110.158:
• CoolRaceDude:
• 173.32.90.15:

The article Muertos Vivos shows both of these IPs being interested in a Gob album:

• 99.236.110.158: "...not to feature bassist Craig Wood"... replacing Craig Wood...
• 173.32.90.158: ...without longtime bassist Craig Wood...

Can we get a similar block on the related IPs? Binksternet (talk) 21:09, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

173.32.90.158 shares unrestrained film POV and an unusual recurring rounding "error" with 98.213.0.205 and Ohad200180. - SummerPhD 23:55, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I have blocked 173.32.90.158 for one month and protected the main target (Reign Over Me) for one month. (If a few people could add Reign Over Me to their watch-lists that would be awesome, the number of watchers is shockingly low.) While 99.254.160.115 and 99.236.110.158 look similar, they are not on the same range and therefore no range block, unfortunately. I don't see how 216.75.167.197 is connected, other than geographically. 98.213.0.205 geolocates to Danville, Illinois (8 hr away by car), and is likely unrelated. You might consider creating a LTA page if the problem persists. This will have to be my last post here for a while, as the page is getting to be too big to load -- Diannaa (talk) 00:03, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Diannaa. I agree that 98.213.0.205 is not the same person as box-office bomb dude. Binksternet (talk) 01:35, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Multiple copyvios

• The19trier (talk · contribs)

I've encountered copyright violations in numerous recent edits by this account, in articles they've created and those they've contributed to. May be more widespread than I've found thus far, so I think their edit history merits overview, and may require copious reverting. 2601:188:0:ABE6:AC1F:A6:FD78:C358 (talk) 04:30, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• I've blocked them for a week and given them a stern warning that if they do this again once the block is up, they'll be indeff'd. I've also warned them that if copyvio makes up the bulk of their edits, the block will become permanent without the possibility of a second chance. I don't have a lot of sympathy for copyright violations because most of us should already be familiar with having to re-write sources (ie, re-write without it being a close paraphrase), as the majority of schools impress the importance of avoiding plagiarism in their schoolwork. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 05:15, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
• Hmm... I'd like to keep this ANI thread open a little longer. I'm now worried that there might be some self-promotion here since a lot of their edits tend to center around material from one specific person, a Stephen Zhang. A look for their username gives off the strong impression that they are this person, which means that they're essentially here to put their work in Misplaced Pages. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 05:30, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! I hadn't made the connection to a specific person--woe if it turns out the copyright issues go back the length of their history here. 2601:188:0:ABE6:AC1F:A6:FD78:C358 (talk) 05:48, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Yeah... they've been doing this since 2010 (as that is a partial copyvio of this, both with their own work and with other people's work. I think that I'm going to turn that block into an indef. If they are Zhang (who is apparently a professor) then they should know the importance of copyright violations and plagiarism. There's no excuse for this to have happened at all, let alone since 2010. They haven't made a ton of edits, but this is probably one of the most basic foundations of education and research: do not steal other people's work verbatim. (Copyvio is essentially stealing in my eyes.) Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 05:49, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Agreed wholeheartedly. 2601:188:0:ABE6:AC1F:A6:FD78:C358 (talk) 05:57, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• I've indeff'd them and gave them a pretty big speech on their page. Bluntly put, researchers and professors have no reason to not be aware of plagiarism/copyvio to some extent. I'm aware that research does involve borrowing other people's work, but the emphasis there is on borrow because that implies that they're still attributing the original work and that the idea would be that whatever they created would essentially be a new work written in their own words. Any material taken verbatim from other places would be quoted and sourced. This editor did not do that, so indef. (Sorry for the speech, but I really, really feel strongly about copyvio.) Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 06:08, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Consider your rationale useful for the broader readership--I'm a published writer who doesn't need to be convinced of the gravity of the matter. I don't like the preponderance of plagiarism and copyright violations, and have no patience for it. 2601:188:0:ABE6:AC1F:A6:FD78:C358 (talk) 06:10, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

A new report needs to be placed at Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems and if the editor shows interest in actually assisting us there, then that's something we can consider. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:13, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Fauzan - Islamic Golden Age

User:Fauzan is maintaining a biased narrative on the Islamic Golden Age wiki that gives entirely too much credit to Islam itself and dismisses the foreign contributions to this historical period. He maintains a source of scientific aspiration on material that is dubious at best (ex. "Ink of a scribe being more valuable than the blood of a martyr" - which is not sourced to Islam nor was it a virtue for the caliphates) and does not use neutral explanations which include "could have," "may," etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.181.252.148 (talk) 04:50, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

You should provide related diffs. --Zyma (talk) 05:53, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

(as a general note I think that there may well be editor bias at times in Islam related topics as per examples here and here. GregKaye 18:28, 13 July 2015 (UTC))

Oscar Randolph Fladmark, Jr.

User:InfoLeak, who has only edited the article in question, obviously has a WP:COI and refuses to recognize that Misplaced Pages is not a memorial. InfoLeak has persisted in restoring unsuitable material, so I have no choice but to request a block. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:36, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

WP "Oscar Randolph Fladmark, Jr."

Misplaced Pages Administrator

The Misplaced Pages page "Oscar Randolph Fladmark, Jr" was Originated and Created by Username: Infoleak who is Oscar's Son (Family)!

Username: Clarityfiend has repeatedly Vandalized and Deleted entire sections of commentary without any authorization or knowledge of the subject.

Therefore, I have to Request WP Administrator Block of Username: Clarityfiend from further editing of content to WP "Oscar Randolph Fladmark, Jr."

InfoLeak (talk) 07:59, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

See WP:NOTVAND and WP:AGF. This poorly attributed paragraph length quote potentially goes against WP:COPYVIO. Ian.thomson (talk) 08:06, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

So InfoLeak is reporting himself as the son of the article topic. And the article history shows a WP:3RR violation. And InfoLeak has started an RfM. And I'm just gonna stop there. --Unready (talk) 08:21, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Five bucks says we get a legal threat from him before talk page access is revoked. Ian.thomson (talk) 08:24, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• I'm blocking him. He's pretty much been doing this for years and from what I can see, he's been basically asserting WP:OWNERSHIP over the article since he signed up. I don't see any specific warnings, but he's been making edits similar to this since 2013. The question here is whether it should be permanently or just temporarily. Clarityfiend, offhand I don't see where you tried to explain the reason for your removals in the past, but neither do I see where InfoLeak has asked for any explanation- and his tendency to treat the article like it was "his" genuinely bothers me. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:11, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• The one thing that does give me pause is that he knew enough about policy to post to the edit warring noticeboard, which gives off the impression that he does have some limited awareness of policy. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:15, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Actually no, I do see where you made some edit summary comments in 2013, so there is some explanation on your part, Clarity. It'd have been better if it was a talk page but it is enough to where Info would have been made aware that this did not fit policy for some reason and the onus would somewhat be on his part to contact you to ask why these changes were done. At no point has he actually done that before seeking punitive action against you. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:19, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
• I posted a link to Misplaced Pages:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide for the editor. I'd suggest giving a chance for them to actually review the ideas there and see if they will acknowledge it. They can still watch the page and interact via posts to the talk page like most COI situations. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:27, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
• I've also posted a longer warning, telling them that if they revert to the prior version they face at least a temporary block. (And a permanent one if they continue after that.) I've also asked them to refrain from directly editing their father's page and to go through a training program as a sign of good faith. So now it's up to them. I have to admit that their ownership/COI overtones aren't exactly promising. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:34, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

  I would suggest replacing "permanent" with "indefinite". Mr Potto (talk) 09:51, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

  Oh, and there appears to be a spurious "If someone is" phrase in there. Mr Potto (talk) 09:53, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks! I'd started typing out a longer explanation, then checked here and saw Ricky's post, and then started writing something else partway through and forgot to remove the last part. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:12, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
• I've just noticed that the title of his book is "OSCAR RANDOLPH FLADMARK, JR. Biography By Gary L. Fladmark," so InfoLeak clearly feels some exclusive authorship of the article. The article is also an orphan, which makes notability questionable, even with all the local paper references. I'm kind of wondering if the purpose of the recent edits is to be able to generate and print pdfs for the 60th anniversary of his father's death, which kind of addresses WP:MEMORIAL even more. --Unready (talk) 10:51, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - The original poster has filed a badly formed Request for Mediation, asking the MedCom to block User:Clarityfiend from edits toOscar Randolph Fladmark, Jr.. The fact that that isn't what mediation is for raises competency concerns. Since he has also requested this WP:ANI action, the original poster is also forum shopping. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:14, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Competence? Really? You expect contributors with less than 300 edits to know all the complex ins and outs of Misplaced Pages dispute resolution policies? I think not. It seems to me that InfoLeak's problems are mostly due to an almost complete failure of anyone to actually explain to him how Misplaced Pages works - though I note that Tokyogirl79 has at last began that process. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:29, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

The subject looks notable from the current contents, and the user is trying to provide free knowledge. How about talking him through WP:COI and being neighbourly instead of this drama? Guy (Help!) 23:16, 13 July 2015 (UTC) Strike that. My bad. The article has referenciness, but the sources are crap. Guy (Help!) 23:18, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking of suggesting sending this one to AfD – if it's notable, AfD will probably figure it out, and if's not AfD will figure that out too! --IJBall (contribs • talk) 00:57, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

D'oh. You're right. This guy doesn't satisfy WP:SOLDIER. Is it permissible to Afd this during an ANI, or is it better to wait for this to wrap up? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:35, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm just pointing that out that if you indelicately AfD the article on the 60th anniversary of the subject's death, you're probably going to amplify the reaction. This is an editor who has devoted his entire experience on Misplaced Pages to writing and maintaining his father's page. --Unready (talk) 02:48, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• I'd say under these circumstances it'd be best to wait a couple of weeks and try to look for sources. Unready is right - nominating it right now wouldn't be the most tactful way to go about this. If the COI here wasn't so strong (meaning that I don't really want the guy directly editing his dad's page) and it hadn't been in the mainspace for so long, I'd suggest sending it to the draftspace. However considering that non-involved editors are pretty much the only people left to edit the article are people that might stumble upon the page (something that is far more unlikely to occur in the draftspace), it'd be more beneficial to keep it in the mainspace during the waiting period. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 04:14, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• It'd also be good to have a little cool down period to look for sources since that way it wouldn't be seen as a knee jerk reaction. In any case, I am finding some profile listings in some museums. However I almost never edit articles on soldiers that aren't notable for some other reason, so I'm not entirely sure that this would really be something that would give a ton of notability. It might be a sign of notability but then it could also be a routine database listing. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 04:22, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - Tokyogirl79, I have posted a few additional comments to your posting on the InfoLeak talk page which should help you in your search for additional information regarding Misplaced Pages page.2602:306:CC4B:B989:2C1C:8F30:AAD8:2DE4 (talk) 09:24, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

It seems to me that InfoLeaks's purpose in creating the article was to create a book about his father, because that's the first thing he did after completing the article. Hence he doesn't want anyone messing with it. OK, so that's one problem. The second problem is his attitude, which is going to get him in some form of hot water if it doesn't radically change. The third problem is the notability of the article subject itself. Does anyone know the notability guidelines for soldiers? Is this article an AfD candidate? If so, who is going to do the honors? Softlavender (talk) 12:31, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

That's fine and all but I think WP:THERAPY is relevant in that whether or not the editor will take this personal is not really our concern. Does the article pass Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Military_history/Notability_guide#People? If you think so, improve it. If not, list it for deletion. Either InfoLeaks will pay attention and be helpful or the editor won't be but that's not for us to solve today. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:55, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

I think you've misinterpreted every point I made. I said that InfoLeak's purpose in creating the article, and his attitude, are the problems. I also asked for someone else (not me) to decide whether the subject meets the relevant guidelines, and if not to nominate if for AfD (as noted, I'm not going to make that call). In any case, InfoLeak has disappeared from here, which is not really appropriate after filing an AfD. If we don't hear from him one way or another, perhaps this thread should be closed before it boomerangs on him. He's making far too many missteps for his own good and needs to calm down and learn (perhaps at the Teahouse) before he shoots himself in the foot. Softlavender (talk) 18:49, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Frivolous AFD nomination, disruptive edit warring and removal of sourced content by User:Vrac

Request speedy close of disruptive and meritless nomination at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of artists who have resided in Brooklyn by Vrac (talk · contribs), opened less than a full day after Vrac's previous AFD on the same page was closed as "keep". It is also clear that Vrac has not been editing the article constructively but has been removing content only to support his position that it should be deleted, which strikes me as an inappropriate and WP:POINTy attempt to WP:GAME the system, and I think at least a warning is in order regarding that editing as well.

After the first AFD was closed, I moved it to the standard List of artists from Brooklyn and Vrac immediately set to removing content from the list, regardless of whether the linked articles contained sources., Worse, he continued to remove entries even after sources were added within the list showing that they were based as artists in Brooklyn,,, consequently edit warring with myself and Northamerica1000. This is all on Vrac's claim (as best as I can figure it out) that someone cannot be listed "from" somewhere if they were born elsewhere or subsequently relocated (all different and not mutually exclusive meanings of "from"). This is contrary to standard practice with "people from FOO" categories and lists, but more important Vrac has shown no inclination to even discuss that he has a different interpretation or to comment on the sources offered despite explanation of the disagreement and invitation to explain himself, instead insisting he and he alone is correct with WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT tendentiousness., Certain entries Vrac has now removed five times within the past day without even commenting on the sources presented.,,,,

After Northamerica retitled the list to List of artists who have resided in Brooklyn to try and avoid Vrac's insistence on what "from" can only mean, Vrac then nominated it for deletion a second time on the frivolous ground that the title change means it's somehow a different article, and that it now violates NOTDIR. Again, this was less than a day after the previous AFD was closed. Thanks for your time in looking into this. postdlf (talk) 18:46, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't find it unreasonable to expect that an article with the title: "List of artists from Brooklyn" contain a list of people who are actually from Brooklyn. I've repeatedly suggested that users find reliable sources that say the individual is from Brooklyn before they add a source, which in some cases they have not done. For each of those cases I removed, I provided a source saying that the individual was not from Brooklyn. All of this is documented in the edit history of the article.

As for the article "List of artists who have resided in Brooklyn", having an article of people "residing in" a particular place, in my opinion, goes against WP:NOTDIRECTORY. As such I created an AFD for it. The article had fundamentally changed, I don't see why a new AFD would be prohibited. I won't comment on Postdlf's behavior, it's all there to see in the AFD's, article history, and article talk page. Vrac (talk) 19:31, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I will say one thing about edit warring. WP:UNSOURCED and WP:V are clear about sourcing, the WP:BURDEN is on the user adding the content, right? None of the sources Postdlf added said the individuals were from Brooklyn. Doesn't that mean that Postdlf is edit warring? Vrac (talk) 19:42, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I would normally !vote "weak delete" because Vrac does have a point that there are no other "list of artists who have resided in " articles (sounds like WP:OL). However...the fact that the same nominator re-nominated the article not even twenty-four hours after the previous discussion was closed as "keep" smells of WP:IDHT; which, IMO, overshadows everything else (for that reason alone, I would !vote "speedy keep"). Erpert 23:36, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I would argue that it's not the same article. What is more fundamental to a list article than its criteria for inclusion? I could also argue that renaming the article was a bad-faith attempt to circumvent the issue of adding content that fails WP:V, and thus keep the members of the list as they were. Vrac (talk) 23:46, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

@Erpert: I have a question about renaming, having never been in this situation, is it ok to rename an article, in this case fundamentally changing it, less than 24 hours after an AFD? There was no consensus at the AFD to rename it to the name it currently holds. Vrac (talk) 00:37, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Note This is a matter of standard list-title style plus first-sentence clarification. The standard Misplaced Pages titling style and naming convention for Lists of people Place X is: List of people from Place X. The first sentence then clarifies that as "This is a list of people born in, residents of, or otherwise closely associated with Place X." The title (and usually Category as well) uses "from" because that is the most felicitous and easiest way to put it. The first sentence clarifies what the parameters of the article actually are. Of course the article is not going to include someone that was neither born in nor lived in Place X for more than 6 months, but likewise nor is it going to exclude someone born in Peoria who then moved to Place X and resided there for a long long time. We can't uproot and change all of Misplaced Pages because one editor objects to article and category naming conventions. If this editor keeps disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a WP:POINT, he needs to be stopped, either with a T-ban or a block. Softlavender (talk) 07:57, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

FYI, Thomas.alrasheed registered his account on 25 June but the problem started months before with other Saudi IPs, interspersed with edits by an IP from UK targeting all the same articles and doing the same vandalism. Another IP from the UK, Special:Contributions/80.42.129.101, vandalized by inserting the surname Al Rasheed, the same as the registered account. So this guy has access to both UK and Saudi IPs. Binksternet (talk) 20:32, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Resolved – User has agreed to cite proper sources that establishes notability for articles about albums. Erick (talk) 13:24, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

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