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The map is still wrong

Germany is still shown as having won only once. The Germany in Eurovision article has it correctly but this main page has been showing the wrong information for a year at least. I don't have the skills to alter the map but it really does need fixing. Vauxhall1964 (talk) 09:38, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

@Vauxhall1964: this debate gets thrashed out periodically as can be found in the number of threads at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest/Archive 1 and Talk:Eurovision Song Contest/Archive 2, and also at File talk:Eurovision winners map.svg - some of which you have also participated in. The map is highlighting the fact that there use to be a divided East-West Germany up until its reunification in the early 1990s. There is a footnote on the map which directs people to the notes section, and provides an explanation into why it is done this way. If we change the colour for both, then people will think Germany have won 4 times, twice as a divided Germany, and twice as a reunified Germany. Wes Mouse |  10:44, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

the Federal Republic of Germany still won both times (and still exists today) - and the German Democratic Republic did never enter the ESC at all - the way it is presented is misleading 149.172.99.168 (talk) 16:48, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

not only did the German Democratic Republic never enter the ESC it was never a member of the EBU 16:51, 7 January 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.172.99.168 (talk)

We know Germany won twice. But in 1982 there was a massive wall dividing the nation. The Federal Republic of Germany was on the western side of that wall, and the map has to show that historical factor. If we show the nation of Germany as being a reunified nation in 1982, then we would be portraying a factual lie. We couldn't highlight both as twice, as that would make people think "West Germany" won twice and the reunified Germany also winning twice. Wes Mouse |  19:51, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

If we're honest this debate gets 'thrashed out periodically' only because, as the threads highlighted show, you and only you argue with everyone else that the map is correct. As for a "factual lie", it's the map which is showing a lie, ie that Germany has only won once (when you yourself just said it won twice). Inclusion of the map is meant to illustrate clearly the facts and the fact is, as we all agree, Germany won twice. I very much admire the work you've put into this article but imagine a journalist having a quick glance at the map and writing an article claiming one win for Germany. We'd all tut tut at their sloppiness, so the map really should be accurate as it's a very instant representation of the facts (the footnote will not be read and is in any case very confusing, talking of 'Germany' and 'Germany as a whole' as if they're two countries). You seem hung up on the map (which is of the territories of Europe as they are now) having to cover the legal territory of Europe as it was four decades ago, which of course it cannot. You also don't seem to understand the legal reality of what 'Germany' is (and has been since the war). As many others in those threads keep pointing out a country called "West Germany" never existed; it was never in the EBU and never entered Eurovision. It's a term used in English-speaking countries and not used in Germany itself (they have always talked about the 'Bundesrepublik'..'federal republic', both then and now). The proper name for the country is the Federal Republic of Germany and it joined Eurovison in 1956 and remains in it to this day, with 'Germany' always on the scoreboard (never 'West Germany'). Its capital changed and its borders changed (in 1957 when Saarland joined it and in 1990 when the eastern regions did the same) but as everyone keeps repeating it's the same country. Or when asked how many times Germany has entered Eurovison do you actually say "35 as West Germnay and 25 as 'Germany'"? The Olympic medals won by the Federal Republic before 1990 aren't separated out from its post reunification tally (and why should they?) so why do that with its Eurovision performances? This defies all common sense. I assume the one win that the map is showing is the win in 2010? Nicole would be very unimpressed to see her win airbrushed off the map. The Germans must find this rather silly as they are in no doubt about what 'Germany' is. After all the German version of this Misplaced Pages article has a map and guess what? It shows Germany with two wins. So are you going to tell them their map is a 'factual lie' too? Vauxhall1964 (talk) 16:52, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I think you will find that all the "periodical thrashing about" took place between 2006 and 2010. I only joined Misplaced Pages on 13 August 2011, well after these debates took place. So it would be appreciated if you retracted the accusation that I have taken part in every single debate that took place. I only commented briefly once to a thread that was started in 2010, but my comment was made 4 years later.

In 1982 when Germany won, the nation was divided politically. Even the maps of 1982 shown an East and West Germany. Although the EBU did not refer to the FR Germany as "West Germany", their atlas status of such nation in that era needs to be depicted correctly - which is what we have done. If we show a reunified Germany being in existence in 1982, then we would be portraying a factual inaccuracy and that would be more offensive to Germans who endured the political divide of that era. Now if we're to use a unified Germany for 1982, then we're basically changing history - and we do not have the right to change history in that manner. Something like this will require community-wide consensus at the correct venue (not sure if ArbCOm or something similar is the place to be heading). And only then would we have something strict to be abiding too. Wes Mouse |  11:09, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, the period of debate only occurred after Germany's second win in 2010; before then the country had indeed only won once so a map showing that would have been correct. Secondly I don't need to retract any 'accusation' because I never made any: I stated a fact, ie that you are the only person who has been defending the map. Since 2010 24 people have posted saying the map is wrong and 2, including yourself, have defended it (neither German and one of which later changed their mind and agreed with the majority). There's certainly no need for any arbitration as the community-wide consensus could not clearer: 24 to 1. Currently this article across its German and English versions has 2 maps and they both obviously cannot be correct. So I presume you wish to change the map on the German version of this article? It is rather naughty to claim to be sensitive to the feelings of Germans on this when it's patently obvious from their article what their feelings are: anyone trying to change their map to show one win would certainly soon discover what "would be more offensive to Germans". The EBU repeatedly say 'Germany' won twice. A map that says it won once is simply wrong and that is "changing history" as you call it. http://www.eurovision.tv/page/history/by-country/country?country=9

Finally you ignored my point about the map being of Europe today but you wanting it to reflect the territorial realities of pre-1990. That is the root of all this. Vauxhall1964 (talk) 15:11, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

@Vauxhall1964: When you have quite finished being so distasteful, disrespectful, and slanderous to my name - perhaps you might like to check what is written here before attacking myself with such disgusting comments.

The footnote wording for the map probably needs to be corrected. But the map itself cannot. When Germany won in 1982, despite the fact it was the FR Germany - the exact location of that territory was on the West (pre-reunification) or colloquially known as West Germany. We have shown that in the map's indent. When Germany won in 2010, it was a reunified Germany on the map of Europe - again that is shown. The map itself shows the historical factor that Germany was divided pre-1990, and also shows Germany as unified post-fall of the Berlin wall. Maybe the footnote should read "Germany has won the contest twice, in 1982 and 2010. However, their win in 1982 was during the time of East/West Germany, whilst the win in 2010 was post-reunification" (and we would be able to link to the article for those who did not know about the Berlin Wall. Wes Mouse |  16:38, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Vauxhall posted an official source that directly contradicts you, let it rest.-79.223.19.149 (talk) 17:14, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Please read Germany in the Eurovision Song Contest in which it states in the lead section Before German reunification in 1990, it occasionally presented as West Germany, representing the Federal Republic of Germany. East Germany (the German Democratic Republic) did not compete. Germany has won two contests, in 1982 and 2010. The map itself shows both of Germany's wins. However, it also makes note of the fact that the win in 1982 was Before German reunification in 1990, whilst the win in 2010 was after the German reunification in 1990. If we grey out "West Germany" in the indented map, then we would be saying that their win in 1982 was part of a reunified Germany - and that would be portraying a fallacy. Look at it another way, let's say that in 1987 the Soviet Union had been successful in their participation. Would we then have to say that although the nations of Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine, Russia, and Azerbaijan won once, they were part of the Soviet Union thus giving the former nations a total of 5 wins? No we wouldn't. So we cannot show a map portraying that in 1982 a reunified Germany had won, because we would be saying that the German Democratic Republic (East Germany) also participated with their Western counterpart. Wes Mouse |  17:47, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Your imaginary cases are not relevant - Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine and Azerbaijan do not claim to be, and are not legally recognized as successors of the Soviet Union.

Let me point out another weak spot in your argument. You write above: "Federal Republic of Germany looked like this" - Exactly, and while it did change shape, it is still the Federal Republic of Germany, the country that won two ESCs. You yourself can't even address that entity that purportedly won the first one.-79.223.19.149 (talk) 17:01, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Also the Eurovision website picks up on the point that in 1982 it was West Germany. Over 13 million West Germans watched Nicole's victory on television and her winning song became a hit in all over Europe. And again they make reference to the East/West Germany in this when they say "The fall of the European communism and the German re-unification was the main issue of the songs of the 1990 Eurovision Song Contest in Zagreb". So clearly the EBU do note the fact there was an East and a West Germany. Wes Mouse |  17:55, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

I've seen a lot, but this is surely one of the silliest arguments I've seen on Misplaced Pages. The argument to assign only one win to Germany on the map implies that the pre-1989 Germany no longer exists. Need I say more?

Let me make a suggestion: With the same rigor, change every map of the USA in every context where a part of the events in question happened before Hawaii joined the Union. If you get away with it, I'll happily agree with your line of thinking.

This looks like a big fat case of POV-pushing OR to me, done by a special interest group. Get rid of it.-79.223.19.149 (talk) 17:01, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

the map is simply not true, the Federal Republic of Germany won twice not once, that is a fact - why is this page so anti-fact? 07:52, 25 May 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.56.181.144 (talk)

Keep it civil please. There is nothing "anti-fact". On the contrary it is historically geographically factual. If we colour the entire nation of Germany as winning twice, then we are saying in the 1980s the whole of Germany (Federal and Democratic) won; when in fact only the Federal part won - which in historical geography purpose was only West Germany. In 2010 the landscape of FR Germany was larger, and that is shown in the second map. We have to show political correctness and historical geographical landscapes based on the time period. In this case, the landscape that FR Germany looked in 1982, and the landscape it looked in 2010. You can argue this until the cows come home, but it won't get changed, as it is common logical to show how the nation looked in both eras. Would you expect to to highlight the landmass of the USSR to show that they won 5 times (as Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine, Russia, and Azerbaijan)? No you wouldn't. Wes Mouse |  12:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

You are all over the place calling people uncivil while threating to give them "a lashing". Maybe you should reconsider that position.

Every known source is against your position, including the ESC itself.

International law contradicts your position: (The Federal Republic of) Germany is still (the Federal Republic of) Germany. Your quasi-historical construction is followed by nobody, neither in Germany nor elsewhere, neither in politics, law, social life nor culture. Nobody denies that Germany is Germany, except you. From Germany: "The united Germany is considered to be the enlarged continuation of the Federal Republic and not a successor state."

Your position is untenable: Even now, you'd have to cover Transnistria and the Crimea, it's likely that others will follow. Are you prepared to keep the map up-to-date with events in Eastern Ukraine? Are you prepared to follow politics in Israel and Cyprus and reflect events on the map? Selfkant belonged to the Netherlands when they won 1957, will your map reflect that? Ignoring that, your map is inaccurate: West-Berlin is missing from the map and all lists in Misplaced Pages as the political entity is was until 1989. Are you prepared to fix that?

You failed to address almost every point put before you, and simply restate your position. Consensus here on Misplaced Pages is plainly against you. That should at least give you pause. You are pushing a very unique POV, and you should not revert the article to that position until you untied at least some of the knots.-91.10.30.120 (talk) 13:35, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Criticism and controversy of the historical hatred perpetration aspect.

> Criticism and controversy

The section should also mention that ESC rules heavily discriminate against some participant countries. Since nobody can vote for themselves, each country is at the mercy of the others. Countries with few or no friends have no chance to win or even score well, no matter how catchy a song and what an excellent singer they run. Thus the ESC rules perpetrate a millenia's historical ballast of mutual hatred and are actually detrimental to friendship and unity within Europe.

The situation is direst for Hungary, which has never received more than 1,000 votes from any foreign country except Poland, due to the many enemies Hungary has. (In the 1920 post-WW1 forced peace treaty of Versailles-Trianon, France was instrumental in curbing away 2/3rd of territory and 50% of population from Hungary. Clemanceu redistributed that to neighbouring countries of Serbia-Yugoslavia, Romania, Czech-Slovakia and USSR. In those countries the populace is still taught to hate Hungary in schools, due to the logic of "a thief can't rest while the owner is still alive". Hungary retaliated by a massive forgery campaign against the french paper franc in 1925, thus the french also hate Hungary.) Germany also doesn't vote for Hungary, because Hungary was the last remaining vassal of the Third Reich, its riverine gunboats fought until May 8th 13:00z and the germans are ashamed of that period in their history.

In this situation, the ban on forming mixed-nation bands means some hated countries, like Hungary remain eternal pariahs in ESC and it cannot be helped. Can you imagine a 100 meter sprint race where the winner is determined by national sympathies and grievances, rather than the stopwatch? 82.131.149.123 (talk) 11:38, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Your reasoning makes no sense as Iceland for example has placed second, twice. Even though they have no neighbours. United Kingdom and Ireland has plenty of wins though they only have each other as neighbours. Of course there are regional voting, but overall it does not effect the results in terms of winners. And to make some comparison between old times and Hungary at ESC today, well if that was true then Germany would get zero points each year. Regards--BabbaQ (talk) 11:55, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not going to comment on why Hungary does or does not get votes, but there's a big difference between not having any neighbors who share a land boundary with your country and not having any 'friends' or political allies within the ESC which is what the original comment was talking about. In some cases sharing a land boundary can make two countries less likely to get along because there are likely to have been border disputes at some point in their past (although the same can be true of countries with seas between them, see England and France pretty much right up until WW1 for example), but it's also entirely possible to be allied with a country that's nowhere near yours. 82.68.159.246 (talk) 09:58, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Dubious claim in the Lede

The lede says: "Winning the Eurovision Song Contest provides an opportunity for the winning artists to capitalise on the surrounding publicity and further their careers"

Some sources are named, but overall the claim is highly dubious:

• Domenico Modugno made third place. I never heard of the man, and no source is given.
• Celine Dion is working out of North America, where the ESC is mostly unknown.
• Julio Iglesias made fourth place, tied with two other artists.
• Conchita Wurst is (still) the current winner, let's see whether or not she is forgotten after the next ESC.

That leaves Abba, the only success story I'm aware of, and possibly Bucks Fizz (I barely remember them), who where active for a few years after their ESC success. That's at most two cases out of dozens of winners, second and third places, an abysmal record for a song contest of this popularity.

The two sources are horrible to support the case. Here is a quote from one of them: "While most Eurovision winners quickly, and perhaps deservedly, fade back into obscurity, the contest helped launch the careers of ABBA and Celine Dion." Yes, the source contradicts the claim. The other source does not even mention the ESC.

Unless someone can find a reason to keep it, I propose to cut this section down to Abba, and possibly a mention of the fact that publicity is not gained except for a very short time (as the source says).91.10.12.68 (talk) 01:49, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

"provides an opportunity" is adequate wording to cover the possibility I think. Leave as is. NewKingsRoad (talk) 07:19, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

The ESC also "provides an opportunity" to pick your nose in front of a large audience. That does not mean that that is typical for the ESC, and it does certainly not mean that it should be in the lede. The claim is at best badly sourced, and quite possibly wrong, in any meaningful sense of the word (ie. misleading).-79.223.27.221 (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Per WP:CITELEAD, lead sections are not suppose to contain citations anyway. Lead sections summarise the content written in the main article body, which would contain the said citations. Wes Mouse |  11:28, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Whatev, the same content does not belong in the lede or anywhere else in the article, since it's not happening.-79.223.27.221 (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

And please @79.223.27.221:, keep it civil. There was no need for the sarcastic "whatev" remark. One should assume good faith in people. All I was pointing out is that citations shouldn't even be in the lead anyway. I was not commenting on the issue at hand. But if you wish that I did.... then be prepared for the lashing. Wes Mouse |  12:27, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

"Prepared for the lashing" is non-aggressive and civil?-91.10.30.120 (talk) 13:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Hypothetical speak. No aggression intended. Sheesh, did someone get out of the wrong side of their bed this morning? Wes Mouse |  13:11, 25 May 2015 (UTC) It is an idiom phrase that I coined myself. And looking at it now, it does look a bit harsh. Allow me to explain. In real life I use the phrase "be prepared for the lashing"; which translates from my own idiom to English as meaning "be ready as I can be an active debater and love the soapbox". It is not meant in a negative way. Wes Mouse |  13:17, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Australia?

Needed updating regarding Australia being invited to join. NewKingsRoad (talk) 07:16, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Please don't mix up sections.-79.223.27.221 (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

And please @79.223.27.221:, keep it civil and do not be aggressive in comments to editors. Wes Mouse |  12:23, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Keep it civil and don't accuse other editors of fictional wrongdoings. What in "Please don't mix up sections." do you consider to be aggressive?-91.10.30.120 (talk) 13:00, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Do you normally poke into other's conversations? Wes Mouse |  13:13, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

This is not the place to have a private conversation. It would be more useful to address the point I made.-91.10.30.120 (talk) 13:36, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Participation

This needs attention - as the show develops each year, so do participation rules.NewKingsRoad (talk) 07:49, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Lede again

How can the ESC be "the longest running annual TV song competition" if it is based on the Sanremo Music Festival, an annual TV song competition? Yes I've read the source, but it's contradicted in the very same paragraph. What's going on here?-79.223.27.221 (talk) 20:35, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Probably for the fact they Eurovision Song Contest has been recognised by the Guinness Book of Records as being the longest running annual TV song competition. Did you not pay attention to Jon Ola Sand when he announced that news on Saturday? Although it did strike me as odd seeing as ESC is supposed to be based off San Remo. Ah well, one of those unexplained oddities. Just in case anyone missed what we are on about, here's the source from the EBU: Just hours ahead of the Grand Final of the 60th Eurovision Song Contest the European Broadcasting Union is proud to have been awarded a GUINNESS WORLD RECORD for Longest Running Annual TV Music Competition!. Wes Mouse |  12:25, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

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