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Cultural Marxism

• Articles for deletion/Cultural Marxism (2nd nomination)
• Articles for deletion/Cultural Marxism (disambiguation)

Cultural Marxism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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This will have been the third time this issue has been brought up for debate under different categories. Before Jimbo’s peace offering to the participants in the Gamergate controversy, the article had been deleted after a discussion ranging a month, far more than befits a fairly obscure term in right-wing circles. Let’s try to have one at least relatively based in the facts.

For previous discussions, see:

Talk:Cultural_Marxism/Archive_2#Merger_proposal and Talk:Cultural_Marxism#Merger_with_.22Frankfurt_School_Conspiracy_Theory.22_.E2.80.93_discussion_2

If it probably wasn't against policy, I’d have to make a bot to comment on all the SPAs and repeatedly disproved sources this discussion will be flooded with the moment it’s linked on Reddit, 8chan or Stormfront. Amitabho Chattopadhyay (talk) 14:13, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not seeing an argument for deletion in this statement, for that matter reading your comment I can't tell if you are for or against deletion.Coffeepusher (talk) 14:36, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm for turning this page into a disambiguation, but my prior involvement in the issue may colour my judgement. The argument for deletion is summarised succinctly here:

• "Well-sourced"? Where? Where are there any "sources" that posit the existence of a school of thought that spans the entire 20th century and contains people that never met each other, and never defined their theories as belonging to a school of "Cultural Marxism"? There are none. There never were, and there still are not any. A few books have been cited as using the phrase "cultural Marxism", but none of them support the existence of a school of thought called "Cultural Marxism".

As an example, which I and others have refuted numerous times, people like to cite the Dworkin book called "Cultural Marxism in Postwar Britain: History, the New Left, and the Origins of Cultural Studies" as supporting the existence of a school called "Cultural Marxism". However, the book does not do this, indicative of the fact those citing it have not read it. First of all, Dworkin, writing in 1997, says "My account is the first intellectual history to study British cultural Marxism conceived as a coherent intellectual discipline" (pg. 3). From the start of the book, Dworkin makes clear that the argument that there has been this long-running school of thought called "cultural Marxism" is totally false. He says that he invented the term in this context. His book's purpose is to establish it, long after the theorists were dead, and after the conspiracy theory had already come to light.

What's more, he specifically says that the Frankfurt School and Gramsci, two people that all these IPs and SPAs claim are part of a school of "Cultural Marxism", are explicitly not part of his "cultural Marxism". In fact, he says he proposes the term "cultural Marxism" as an alternative the more mainstream phrase "cultural studies" for an exclusively British movement that began in the 1960s, with the Centre for Contemporary Cultural Studies at Birmingham. This is a fringe usage. No one other than Dworkin has proposed this usage, and mainstream academia calls it "cultural studies", which we have an article on. He admits that it doesn't exist outside of his work, and that he is creating term for his own sake to reframe the traditional academic viewpoints on the Birmingham school. He explicitly excludes those who IPs and SPAs say are part of "cultural Marxism". Regardless, his view is not accepted in academia. You will not find any other books referencing this definition. It is exclusively his, and WP:FRINGE. This is just one example of the manipulation occurring here.

Another example is a 2004 essay by Douglas Kellner, called "Cultural Studies and Cultural Marxism", which these SPAs and IPs like to use. These two works are the main sources for the IP and SPA arguments. It was written long after the conspiracy theory had emerged. It is not a peer-reviewed journal article. It was never published anywhere. It is a personal essay of 15 pages long, that only exists on the internet because he has released it personally for free. None of the sources it cites propose the existence of a school of thought called "Cultural Marxism". In fact, Kellner himself does not use "cultural Marxism" to posit the existence of a school of thought, but instead uses it in the purely descriptive sense of meaning "applications of Marxism to culture", which is not a definition that can be used as the basis for an encylopaedia article.

Citation of sources, and WP:V, do not mean that one can just throw a bunch of links in an article and say that it is "well-sourced". WP:V means that the sources must support the text, and that the sources must be reliable, and not WP:FRINGE. None of the sources in the article, especially these two favourites of the IP and SPA crowd, support the idea of a school of thought called "Cultural Marxism". Zero. If people can't read the sources, that's their fault. WP:V is a policy, and to adhere to it, the sources must support the text. All of them have been debunked repeatedly by me, and other editors. RGloucester — ☎ 02:36, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

• Smerge to Frankfurt School conspiracy theory or Turn into Disambiguation or Delete, in order of preference. Hipocrite (talk) 15:33, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep per WP:SK, "fails to advance an argument for deletion...making nominations of the same article with the same arguments..." Also the nominator's complaints about SPAs seem saucy when he himself has only made 216 edits and most of his activity in the last 6 months was in this dispute. Andrew D. (talk) 17:02, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment - SK not applicable, as I support Deletion over the current status quo. Hipocrite (talk) 17:21, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:09, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Conspiracy theories-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:09, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:09, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• This is an attempt at an end-run around the (lack of) consensus at the merge proposal. Editors considering participating in the debate on this article should please read the talk page history carefully. —S Marshall T/C 19:27, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
• Delete (as far as I can tell, there is no substantive content to merge). Ordinarily I'd object to this nomination on DEADHORSE grounds. But this isn't ordinarily, and the process to date has been so beset by irregularity that editors who are dissatisfied with the state of play have every reason to be. The bottom line here is that there is a complete lack of sourcing to establish "Cultural Marxism" as a topic distinct from "Frankfurt School". Given that, it doesn't really matter how many editors feel it should be treated as a district topic. We just can't have article on Misplaced Pages about things for which we have no specific sourcing. Formerip (talk) 19:32, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
• See also User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 178 and User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 179
• Merge and Disambiguate - delete this POV fringe hijacking of a common usage to describe Marxist theory of culture and which is normally used in the precise context of criticising Structural Marxism as well as more generally, and which doesn't qualify for an article at this precise title despite being widely recognised and qualifying for a hatnote upon redirection. Merge this article elsewhere, and disambiguate between the real Cultural studies-Critical theory and the fringe conspiracy page or a separate article. Or if you can't do that, delete this article. -- zzuuzz 19:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
• Keep and improve with reliable sources representing varied perspectives on the subject in proportion to their mainstream acceptance, as per the standard NPOV process that we use for everything else. Covering contested subjects and representing conflicting viewpoints is part of our job as an encyclopedia. JimmyGuano (talk) 20:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment - We already have an article on every topic this term can encompass: Frankfurt School, Frankfurt School conspiracy theory and Cultural studies. Regarding your second sentence, see WP:DUE; I will presume you meant 'present', not 'represent'. We don't have an article on 'Jews and communism', which this article might as well be. অমিত talk 21:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not quite clear on the distinction you're trying to draw between "present" and "represent", however I certainly didn't mean "support", if that's the meaning you are trying to steer me away from? As far as I can tell from the sources the whole point about "Cultural Marxism" as a concept is that it is seen by those that posit its existence as a wider phenomenon enveloping all of those things you mention and more. That is precisely why it can't be replaced by any of them. You may well argue that this makes it a paranoid delusion and you may well be right (though similar usage by non-right wing sources though rare doesn't seem to be completely unheard of). Even if it is a paranoid delusion, though, it is a notable paranoid delusion, as it is discussed in reliable sources who are not themselves trying to promote it. JimmyGuano (talk) 21:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Specifically, Jimmy, what sources are you refering to when you say "as far as I can tell from the sources"? Can you give an example of a fact about "Cultural Marxism" that can be cited and is unambiguously something Misplaced Pages should mention, but for some reason could not be incorporated into the Frankfurt School article? If you can, I might think about changing my vote. But if you can't, I think you should think about changing yours. Formerip (talk) 22:18, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• Delete or Merge with Cultural studies or Critical Theory. Merging this article with Frankfurt School conspiracy theory was already tried and was met with immediate backlash. I believe there would be more consensus if it was moved to one of the aforementioned articles instead. HessmixD (talk) 23:12, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
• Keep - the article is currently not in good shape, partly as a result of recent content disputes, though there are better versions in its history that can be used in the process of improvement. It's under discussion on its talk page, with wider community involvement than before, thanks to intervention by Jimbo a few weeks ago. There are various suggestions for improvement or for possible renaming or merging elsewhere. It may ultimately be merged into a new article on Marxist cultural theory (or something similar)... or perhaps, though I wouldn't currently support this, into the existing article called Cultural materialism (cultural studies) or one of the other articles on related topics such as Critical theory or Cultural hegemony. But the options should be sorted out on its talk page by people who are now reading the relevant scholarly books, peer-reviewed articles, etc. An AfD discussion is not the best way to choose between options, but it would be good if the AfD brought some more community involvement to the talk page. Meanwhile, cultural Marxism as understood by intellectual historians, etc., is a real and important phenomenon that has attracted reputable academic research. Cultural Marxism is wider than just Antonio Gramsci (probably its main inspiration), the Frankfurt School, critical theory, or any of the other existing articles that cover related areas. Vesa Oittinen, a professor of intellectual history at the University of Helsinki, defines it succinctly as: "an attempt to apply basic ideas of historical materialism on the analyses of culture". That's a legitimate and important topic, and there are good sources. The main question IMHO is whether it should be dealt with under some other broad heading, such as "Marxist cultural theory", but again that needs to be worked out on the talk page by people who are reading the scholarly literature. Meanwhile the article should be improved, not deleted. Metamagician3000 (talk) 00:18, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

To be clear what's being discussed on the talkpage is a proposal to create an article titled something like "Marxist theory of culture" with entirely different content to this one. Don't get me wrong, that may be a great idea. But if you are proposing different content and a different title, how does that equate to "keep"? You might just as well vote keep on the basis that all that's wrong with the article article should be about Mount Kilimanjaro and titled "Mount Kilimanjaro". No need to delete it, just change the content and title instead! No, what you're talking about is clicking here and starting to type. This doesn't amount to any sort of valid keep rationale. Formerip (talk) 00:46, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Many subjects "attracted reputable academic research" - that's the basis for the Ig Nobel Prize, but this particular subject isn't covered or defined in any sense other than as directly synonymous and interchangeable with the views of The Frankfurt School and Antonio Gramsci. So I think your vote is poorly explained. Can you expand on what you mean by cultural Marxism beyond those, the associated pages in order to establish it as a separate phenomena independent of them? --Jobrot (talk) 06:08, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Since atleast in the previous discussion on the article's talk page some editors proposed merging the two articles, which way they should be merged if they should be? The article 'Cultural Marxism' has existed since 1 June 2006, whereas Frankfurt School conspiracy theory was created by Fuzzy mongoose (talk · contribs) in May 2013 as a split from Cultural Marxism. At that time, no one suggested deleting Cultural Marxism. It is important to consider because merging all contents to either article could partly be a WP:COATRACK. --Pudeo' 03:03, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
• Comment The quite limited and extremely historically bookended academic use of the term cultural Marxism invariably refers to the early philosophies of Gramsci and The Frankfurt School which influenced discourses like Cultural Studies and Critical Theory. The academic consensus is that these influences ended in the late 70s and early 80s (when Post-Modern thought took over).

Right-wing pundits however build on this now rarefied academic use to claim that Feminism, Gay Rights, Multiculturalism, Atheism, and Political Correctness are all stalwart Marxist attempts to weaken western Christian society and replace it with Marxism. This is undeniably a conspiracy theory. So I believe good Misplaced Pages policy would be to do something akin to what's been done with the Rothschild conspiracy theory - incorporate the conspiracy theory as a section of one of the legitimate articles to which the academic term refers. I'd suggest the Frankfurt School is the most appropriate target destination for this merger as it contains both Gramsci and Lukàcs who are often referred to by name in the conspiracy (as is the Frankfurt School in general) and the pages on Cultural Studies and Critical Theory both directly link to the Frankfurt School. Allowing people to still find the material in question, and more importantly allowing Misplaced Pages to be used properly for it's intended purpose - as an Encyclopedia (some digging required). If the merger doesn't occur, Cultural Marxism will need semi-permanent protection due to the this theory garnering the support/attentions of both StormFront and GamerGate. --Jobrot (talk) 05:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• Delete or Merge The academic use refers to Gramsci and The Frankfurt School. The unevidenced conspiratorial claims about modern cultural phenomena (Multiculturalism/Athesism/Political Correctness) suffer from extreme WP:V, WP:OR and WP:NPOV issues - which are unsurmountable due to the nature of the claims as invalid. As stated above, the Rothschild family approach is most appropriate for such a niche (non-notable) conspiracy theory. --Jobrot (talk) 05:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

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