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Revision as of 01:51, 22 October 2014 editLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,308,564 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force/Archive 5) (bot← Previous edit Revision as of 04:42, 22 October 2014 edit undoGemSophos (talk | contribs)2 edits University of Sydney gender diversity Wikibomb signupNext edit →
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The University of Sydney is hosting a gender diversity editathon on Friday October 31st about women currently or historically connected with the university. The project page is at ]. Any Wikipedians who can attend on the day would be much appreciated (sign up now!) to help train newcomers. If you would like to contribute online (sign up now!), pick a ] and start your research. --] (]) 00:04, 22 October 2014 (UTC) The University of Sydney is hosting a gender diversity editathon on Friday October 31st about women currently or historically connected with the university. The project page is at ]. Any Wikipedians who can attend on the day would be much appreciated (sign up now!) to help train newcomers. If you would like to contribute online (sign up now!), pick a ] and start your research. --] (]) 00:04, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
:Good, although already mentioned ]. People here might like to comment on what advice should be offered to new female editors—for example, guidance on selection of a user name or on what should be posted on a user page. ] (]) 00:23, 22 October 2014 (UTC) :Good, although already mentioned ]. People here might like to comment on what advice should be offered to new female editors—for example, guidance on selection of a user name or on what should be posted on a user page. ] (]) 00:23, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
::Hmmm, would it be too aggressive to consider other forms of conceptual "Wikibombs"? Such as creating memes to facilitate positive change vis-à-vis the gender gap problem? NeoFeminism directly <redacted>, for example: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:IshtarPoster.jpg
:I completely understand that while highly effective, some may consider this approach <redacted>. This represents a tough philosophical quandary for #HeForShe #NeoFeminists such as myself. Do my colleagues and I use every tool at our disposal to affect positive change at Misplaced Pages, or do we hold back until <redacted>? ] (]) 04:42, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 04:42, 22 October 2014

Shortcut
  • Welcome to the GGTF: the gender gap task force. Please sign up if you'd like to help.
  • The talk page is for friendly discussion about anything related to closing Misplaced Pages's gender gap, including asking for help with articles, AfDs, and so on.
  • Add new posts to the end or click here to start a new topic.
  • Sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~).

Request for Arbitration on this Task force

As per recent discussions, I have opened a Request for Arbitration: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests#Requests for arbitration

Please add comments in the Arbitration Request. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:36, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I haven't provided a detailed explanation of the issues. Would one or more of the participants please provide, in their statement to the ArbCom, what issues they think should be addressed? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:24, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Why not close this now? The issue is three people disrupting the project despite numerous complaints. If those people actually work more collaboratively, there won't be a problem any more. You haven't even given them a chance to do so. Why not just withdraw this as ill formed and premature? Otherwise I'll have to waste an hour coming up with 500 words explaining why it is and so will others. Please just close it. Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't have to be 500 words. It has to be no more than 500 words. I'm not closing the request, which was suggested among other people by the founder. I will try to add something. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:19, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Can't we ratchet this down, CM? Your complaint was rejected. It's not helpful to repeat your failed accusations while simultaneously denying that they should be adjudicated at Arbcom. Why not just get back to work here? SPECIFICO talk 21:53, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
I think it's pretty clear I want this closed down/declined, in case anyone's confused, and stated it here: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Statement_by_Carolmooredc. I was hoping to take a few days off from this project and take care of other things! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:56, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
I accept your statement. Please consider striking your renewed allegation in this thread of your failed complaint. Enjoy your vacation. SPECIFICO talk 22:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
SPECIFICO, you are not helping to deescalate the situation here. CMDC did not file at ArbCom, someone else did. CMDC appears to not want to go down that road. Reality is that you have been part of the problem by behaving in a tendentious and WP:BAITing manner. However, more trips to the drama boards are not, at present, part of the solution. Everyone taking a nice deep breath and dropping the stick would do. Montanabw 22:47, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
@Carol, on the one hand you claim you want to shut this down, then in the very next sentence you start your accusations all over again. You can't have it both ways. Stop the passive aggressive nonsense. If Arbcom takes this, I doubt it will go well for you.Two kinds of pork (talk) 22:54, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Comparisons with mental disorders are not going to be very constructive here. —Neotarf (talk) 03:19, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
In the article, low and behold Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) revision IV describes passive-aggressive personality disorder. I think the reverter might have misread the "mental disorder" as being a criticism of me as opposed to a criticism of the inappropriate use of the term passive-aggressive. Note that the initiator brought up the issues and fleshing them out was appropriate. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:15, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Another constructive post. I'd again like to ask you to strike your accusations above. That would be powerful evidence to Arbcom in support of your pleading that the proposed case is not needed and should be rejected. SPECIFICO talk 19:39, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
The case is likely to be rejected based on what I have seen so far, both WP:ANI and arbcom are saying this is a matter for editors here to work out. Nobody here can have it all each side is going to have to give some here and admit they are not 100% right on their views. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:18, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

UPDATE It seems the arbitrators have had a change of heart and the case looks like it is going to be accepted. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:10, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Case accepted

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender_Gap_Task_Force. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:35, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Spin off the GGTF into a new WikiProject?

We've 54 members in the GGTF, and there is a proposal to create multiple, defined tasks for the GGTF. I think that this task force would work better as a new WikiProject, not under WikiProject Countering systemic bias. It used to be that the task force was about gender bias, but now it's been changed into a gender gap task force. This implies that the reason to get rid of the gender gap is to counter systemic bias, which may be a primary reason for getting rid of the gender gap, but I'm sure many people here have alternative reasons for trying to counter the gender gap. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 13:41, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm here because this is part of CSB. What is your alternative reason? --GRuban (talk) 14:04, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
@Carolmooredc: Misplaced Pages:Comment on content, not on the contributor. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 21:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
The issue of the relation has been addressed here before: SlimVirgin’s question on “If MRM people are causing a problem here, this page is ipso facto covered by the sanctions” plus continuing discussion and
Let's hope not. Putting this under the soul-sucking dominion of WP:AE would be the surest way to kill broad participation. —Neotarf (talk) 21:58, 27 September 2014 (UTC) No, wait, MRM is under community sanctions, not ArbCom. —Neotarf (talk) 22:05, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Way back in June-July Arbitration sounded like a good thing to a couple editors, but since then it has become clear it's just one more nail in the coffin of this project. That's what I fear this move would be. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:01, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I can't see what connects arbitration, men's rights and calling the task force a wikiproject. SlimVirgin 22:12, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
This archived thread on a past Men's rights disruption, continuing disruptions and possible solutions discusses possible Arbitration as a solution (see last three posts especially). So if a men's rights person was proposing something, without technically invoking community sanctions by discussing men's rights, one might be a little concerned about the reasons. But if no one else thinks it's a possible problem, I'll relax. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:23, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
If User:Carolmooredc believes that I am somehow disrupting the project, I would suggest that she takes it up with me or creates a section on this talk page. In response to her saying that this move is the doings of an MRA trying to kill "this project" (italics mine), I would like to point to Misplaced Pages:Comment on the content, not the contributor again, as you have not provided any evidence that any perceived viewpoint of mine would somehow affect the content of this proposal or of any of my actions or comments related to the GGTF or any topic that may be covered under community sanctions. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 22:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
It's easier to just ask for someone's point of view and get a positive reply that it's not an issue than to feel one must go through a bunch of diffs and their full context, which can clarify certain comments. But never mind if you don't want to discuss it. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind moving it to WikiProject Gender Gap. I started it under the systemic bias wikiproject only to give it a home (which is why it first had "bias" in the title, and is one of their "task forces"). But as it grows, a separate wikiproject might be more appropriate. SlimVirgin 14:35, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
I have several concerns. Having one active project under Counter Systemic Violence helps support the others. Having a lone project might make it harder to find if it goes dormant and might make it easier to target as "against Misplaced Pages policies" if it becomes its own project and people keep harping on non-issues like "2 men to revert a woman" proposal, "political activity", "rabble rousers", etc. Just like a Stand Alone Wikiproject, this one can easily create a few more tabs and pages. At this point there isn't even a proposed need for separate pages, except for a resources page will I'll come back to in a few weeks (i.e., one less "kitchen sinky" than my big one). Then there is dealing with practical bureaucratic concerns on redirects, changing various links already in place throughout, etc. etc. So I would not be so quick to jump upon the idea. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:02, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm with @SlimVirgin:. Split this off. Systemic bias (not "violence") is a content issue; gender gap is a participation issue. This page is just a dramafest and useless to helping solve either issue. Montanabw 18:50, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
That's an interesting distinction I hadn't considered. I have felt that the gender gap issue did not neatly belong in the systematic bias wiki project but for other reasons. The gender gap issue seems to me to be a big enough issue that it could stand alone as a project. Obviously that project could have links to other relevant projects such as the systematic bias project to help ensure that it doesn't become orphaned but I see value in establishing it as its own project.
Whether it is moved to a new project or remains here it would also be useful to think about the interplay between this page and the gender gap page on Meta. It isn't clear to me how these two interrelate. Conceptually, one would think that the meta-page would be the main page covering the issue from the perspective of all of Wikimedia while this specific page would concentrate on those aspects especially relevant to the English Misplaced Pages. However that does not seem to be the way they are organized, which is almost certainly due to the non-hierarchical nature of this enterprise and the fact that some contribute to one or the other while a few try to make sure there is some overlap in material.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:56, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
I think there's support. User:Carolmooredc is the only one disagreeing. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 00:08, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
And I assume that if anyone gets trollish and finds the "higher level" of Wikiproject some sort of Feminazi plot to take over and destroy Misplaced Pages, you'll be defending that choice to the hilt. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:39, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Meta-wiki already has its own gender gap project. This task force is already essentially its own WikiProject, and making a new one will just be a bureaucratic formality. Being under CSB is a vestige of when countering the gender gap was seen as primarily an objective to remove bias from Misplaced Pages because everything was written from a male centric viewpoint. Now, it is a moral goal unto itself. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 14:32, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
OK. We got Chess/Grognard down for a "moral crusade" . Only other definitive reason give below was regarding systemic bias as a content issue vs. gender gap as a participation issue. (I'm pretty sure it will do both in either place.) For future reference I think it's probable that most of those who signed on to this specific propsoal did so for practical not moral reasons. (Please feel free to explain reasons further.) So any future naysayers can argue with Chess/Grognard on the morality issue. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:41, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
@Carolmooredc: It's not a "morality" issue, but a practicality and categorization issue. Currently, as other people said, Meta-wiki has a gender gap project. A major focus of the 2014/2015 year for the WMF is to fix the gender gap, and this task force seems to have grown enough to become a WikiProject, as well as having a goal important enough to be a WikiProject. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 01:00, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
I was just quoting you. In any case, right now there's not a clear consensus to change it. Perhaps we should wait anyway until the conclusion of the ongoing Gender Gap Task Force arbitration Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:07, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Straw poll

  • Perhaps we could have quick straw poll to see whether there's support.
I agree, although I would leave a redirect at a minimum, and possibly a placeholder page with a link.--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:41, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

A multipronged strategy

This comment for some reason disappeared in the recent disruptions. I just wanted to pull it out and highlight it:

The WMF doesn't really know what to do about the gender gap. Me, I'm convinced that a multipronged strategy is needed for several parts of the "pipeline": attracting more women to press the save button for the first time (which Lila T believes is the hardest bit); promoting a culture of social support for newbies (well, all editors, but especially newbies); and organising concerted efforts by editors of both genders to improve our coverage of women and women's topics (sport, anyone; science, anyone?). Each of these strategies can be pursued without dependence on the others, and be either individually or socially supported.

Every time I come into contact with a newbie, I write something encouraging on their page. It bounces back very positively when they haven't already experienced brash rudeness. So it becomes self-therapy, if you like. Does everyone on this page encourage a newbie at least once a week? Some of them might be women. Tony (talk) 08:32, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Just to comment on the three points;

Meetups--attracting women to make the first edit

1) Attracting women to make the first edit

In the absence of the WMF being able to identify female users, and get any recommendations from actual women about what makes them want or not want to edit, the project is likely to get saddled with something like pink bunnies, not to mention having all the software disasters, like Visual Editor and Media Viewer blamed on potential female editors. Strategies should focus on facts, not on negative stereotypes of women. But where do you go if you want to find research that has already been done on the subject? What about an annotated bibliography, where someone who wants to research a particular question can find these resources grouped under "recruitment strategies", "best practices", or "blogs about editithons" (or whatever) subtitles.

2) Promoting a culture of social support for newbies

As several comments at recent ANIs have noted, there seems to be a project-wide viewpoint that women who do not want to be harassed should not identify themselves as women. So targeting newbies does make sense.
Most, if not all of the women who participate in this project have a primary area of interest, and divide their attention between making edits in their chosen topic area and trying to remove barriers to their participation. Yet there is no way to identify participants by editing area, so the science editors, literature editor, horse editors, etc. can find each other and distinguish themselves from the editors who signed up for the project in order to argue about whether women's participation is a real issue. Perhaps participants could be encouraged somewhere (on the sign-up page?) to indicate how at they might be able to assist other editors, or any areas where they would like assistance.

3) Improving coverage of women and women's topics

People sometimes find themselves with an extra 20 minutes or so that they can use to edit something. What about a place to add to a list of red-linked or stub articles that need work, along with an indication of their topic area. That way someone who likes to edit in science or medicine can quickly pick out something they like to edit and go to it directly.

Neotarf (talk) 16:30, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for posting. My mind remains a bit too boggled right now to think about it all, but maybe this weekend. Hmmmm, what a fascinating looking meetup group that needs women; is it near Washington dc?? 16:35, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Oh, no, I'm not necessarily saying that any group "needs women" (although they might consider a "take your daughter to pub" event). There are valid reasons for having an event that is all or mostly men or women, and sometimes it just ends up that way. But the above pictures would tend to show that pink bunnies are not necessary to get women to show up; the more effective bait these days seems to be WIFI and power strips. —Neotarf (talk) 17:35, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
On point number two, I just found this, which might save some duplication of effort. —Neotarf (talk) 17:52, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Sorry, Neotarf, but come on. Pick more generic photos if you must pick photos. The humor has been beaten out of all this already, and this lightheartedness with the photos is a bit too much like a shot below the belt. Drmies (talk) 17:54, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
As someone who's worked hard to encourage meetups of Misplaced Pages editors in the UK, I find it disgraceful that snide remarks are directed toward our meetings. There were other images that could have been chosen from that meetup showing a female editor was present. When we consider that only around 10% of Misplaced Pages editors are female, having a female editor among a dozen male editors is pretty representative of the underlying population, so what's your problem with our meetups? As it happens the sole female editor at that meetup became involved in Wikimedia UK activities following a session that Wikimedia UK held to encourage Girl Geeks to edit Misplaced Pages. Many of the participants at our meetups have gone on to train new editors at editahons in support of our annual Ada Lovelace Day or other initiatives to involve women in Misplaced Pages. I suggest that the members of this project may care to examine the events organised in the UK for examples of good practice in trying to bridge the gender gap. That would be far more productive than sniping from the sidelines at those who are actually out there doing something about the issue. --RexxS (talk) 18:31, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Well, pardon the heck out of me, but it looks like some of us are just not up on all the in-jokes that we're supposed to know. I met some of these users for the first time on this page something like a week ago, and to put it mildly, my first impression was not a good one. Seems odd though that someone would automatically assume that posting this photo is somehow "below the belt". I don't see any "snide remarks" or "sniping form the sidelines". —Neotarf (talk) 18:58, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Neotarf: That leads to main Wikimedia.org Gender Gap page which isn't too active. (And no more gentle allusions, please. They are far worse than harsh specifics.) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
No, it's a soft redirect to a meta page--and quite a good one. I don't know how to set up the inter-wiki links. —Neotarf (talk) 18:44, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
You normally simply need to use the language as a prefix. In the case of MetaWiki, it's "meta", so meta:Gender gap gives you the link you want. Similarly "wmuk" is the prefix for the Wikimedia UK wiki as I used in my post above. HTH --RexxS (talk) 20:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, I have now managed to use it in reverse, and post a link to this project on meta--but unfortunately not the talkpage. —Neotarf (talk) 23:05, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Some very good points by Neotarf. Tony (talk) 04:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikimedia.org Gender Gap Strategy

Wikimedia.org Gender Gap Strategy project statement reads: "Wikimedia's gender gap has been well-documented and increasing diversity is an area of concern for the Wikimedia movement. Our aim here is to build a collective and coherent strategy for addressing the gender gap as a movement." The strategy has been worked on over a few years by various individuals. Currently list their strategies as: Thematic edit-a-thons, Toolkits, Context research, More friendly-space policies, Gender gap grants campaign, Support WEP and GLAM, Conferences and meetups. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:53, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Mind the Gap

So, the symbol and the phrase "Mind the Gap" - is it known outside the UK? Obviously it means something to people who travel by rail in the UK, but how about people in, say, New Zealand, do they understand it? mMybe the phrase is used worldwide, I don't know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.183.53 (talk) 20:22, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

It's used outside the UK, and we even have an article on it (of course!): Mind the gap. SlimVirgin 02:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
While I suspect most subway users are familiar with the phrase, I'm probably not the only person who was (or will be) reminded of the Thigh gap, which considering the subject matter and some of the sensitivities involved is perhaps a reason to not use it. I was going to address this a few weeks ago, but considering the toxic enviornment thought better of it. Not that I mind a double entendre every now and then, but this isn't a good place for such right now.Two kinds of porkBacon 03:29, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
That use is a neologism, and should not be used to run off an older expression. Montanabw 06:23, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
I did not know what a "thigh gap" is until now. I, personally, have not heard of it. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 12:54, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
The use of "mind the gap" at The Chive to refer to thigh gaps is just community lingo, like "sharp knees" is at Fark. There is no reason it can't be used by GGTF to refer to the gender gap.--Milowent 15:54, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
I think it is clever.--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:38, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
It was in the news a few years ago due to some Victoria Secret ad campaign, which raised in the public sphere some questions of body issues. Should someone mention it in the future, you will know the reason why I suppose. Two kinds of porkBacon 15:49, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
I thought you were talking about a gap between the train and platform but evidently you're talking about the gap between a guy's thighs when he doesn't have much down there. I actually would like CLOSE THE GAP better myself. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
I've never heard of it being used towards men in that fashion before, but you travel in different circles it seems. The thigh gap meme is nothing to sneeze at; Young women and girls are subjected to enough body issue stereotypes already. Hopefully the women leave the moronic spacers in the ears fad tto the men. I too would prefer "Close the gap", if only for the reason that is one less kitschy UK meme being used that people seem to be so fond of. Two kinds of porkBacon 18:57, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Close the gap is a phrase used in Australia for a campaign to reduce the gap in statistics of age at death, child mortality, etc between white and indigenous Australians. AnonNep (talk) 18:38, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
I like Mind the Gap just fine. For those who also associate it with a caution, that's fine, too. I think there's a certain risk to Misplaced Pages if it doesn't mind the (gender) gap. Lightbreather (talk) 01:24, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
"Mind the Gap". The Gap is something to be AVOIDED, not CLOSED. Just a thought. 141.6.11.21 (talk) 07:56, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
We can't avoid it. Perhaps "mind the gap" is good for the outward facing messages. For the project "dive into the gap" might be better. All the best: Rich Farmbrough21:35, 1 October 2014 (UTC).
If I dive into the gap, then I'll probably die. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 15:16, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Women using technology to stop harassment

"How young women joined forces against misogynistic YouTuber Sam Pepper": After Pepper posted a video of himself approaching young women on the street and touching them on the butt, YouTuber Laci Green wrote him an open letter signed by top vloggers in the industry that was reblogged more than 100,000 times:

Please stop violating women and making them uncomfortable on the street for views. Please stop physically restraining them and pressuring them to be sexual when they are uncomfortable....These videos encourage millions of young men and women to see this violation as a normal way to interact with women. 1 in 6 young women (real life ones, just like the ones in your video) are sexually assaulted, and sadly, videos like these will only further increase those numbers.

Pepper has been dropped by his YouTube network and is longer welcome at fan conferences. Says one of his former collaborators, "A sexual predator isn't a good look." The Sam Pepper article is currently a redirect to List of Big Brother 11 housemates (UK)#Sam and has been indefinitely protected from editing by non-admins since August 2013. —Neotarf (talk) 05:32, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

The question is if he's notable enough to warrant his own article. If you know of enough quality sources I can see a case being made, but I can also see WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP being tossed in your path as well. It seems the incident is more notable than the individual in this case. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:42, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes, this isn't an encyclopedia of douchebags.Two kinds of porkBacon 21:09, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Cyberbullying is current article and it has only a couple trivial articles . Search "internet" or "online harassment of women" and you'll find dozens of RS that would be the basis of a good article. Fairly high on my list of articles to create...someday. However, feel free to create it now. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:15, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Big Brother is a mainstream show in the UK, for that reason he story is bigger in the UK and has been covered by the BBC, The Independent and has had a (small) mention in The Guardian. I would have thought they would be enough to pass the notability requirements. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 22:54, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
No, most BB contestants never see the light of a BLP article. They are listed in the shows article, but very few are blue Two kinds of porkBacon 00:34, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
If someone writes it I will back it, the notability comes from the media coverage and the broader issue of harassment. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 08:58, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

It isn't in the Laci Green article, although the article has a criticism bit about "citing an apparent opinion Green once made about sexism and Islam" that leads to a dead link. If the criticism bit is notable enough for inclusion, it seems this would be. The whole Green article seems pretty sparsely written. —Neotarf (talk) 12:54, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

An interesting read

I am reading The Argument Culture by Deborah Tannen - most recently this section:

  • Tannen, Deborah (1999). "Fast Forward: Technologically Enhanced Aggression". The Argument Culture. Ballantine. pp. 250-. ISBN 9780345407511. {{cite book}}: External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help) (section, "Gender on the Internet")

I recommend this book for those interested in addressing the gender gap. Lightbreather (talk) 02:41, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Not a lot new there, just more about how women tend to be less confrontational. For someone like me, that means I get thrown under the bus by other women who refuse to "get involved" or 'don't like conflict." Doesn't matter if you don't like conflict; you gotta not put your head in the sand; choose your battles and keep focused - and focused on the right stuff (like, for example, any number of trolls involved with "Gamergate") - now there is where we actually have a problem. Montanabw 06:10, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
It's a bit problematic to blame women for preferring to avoid unnecessary conflict or to refuse to join in one's own preferred battles; just like it's problematic to call them "Drama queens" or "queen bees" or whatever if they tend to edit in controversial political and economic topics where aggressive males dominate.
We can encourage women to be more assertive - including in demanding a more collaborative and less abusive editing environment. I think it's been great that a lot of women already have spoken out on various gender gap issues here and elsewhere. However, let's cut each other some slack if we don't live up to each others expectations, be it being not assertive enough or in being "too assertive" or in not choosing one's own preferred strategies. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:08, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
It is both problematic AND condescending AND throwing other women under the bus to say something as stereotyping as "women prefer to avoid conflict" or "women prefer a collaborative as opposed to an individualistic environment." Bullshit. We are all individuals, some do, some don't. But if people cut and run, then those of us left are those who are trying to "butt her way though a steel wall," while the rest of you stand around and say "hurry,you're so strong." (You know the poem) And no, Carol, a "queen bee" is a women who likes to put other women in their place so she can be the dominant one who controls the dialogue. And now, because there is a confusion between incivility and sexism, we have an ArbCom case that is apt to result in banning a few people who aren't even the main problem and a conclusion that we need more fuzzy pink bunnies and magic unicorns on wiki to attract women editors (sigh...). Montanabw 03:29, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
Like I said: However, let's cut each other some slack if we don't live up to each others expectations, be it being not assertive enough or in being "too assertive" or in not choosing one's own preferred strategies (and may add), "or whatever". Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:55, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
It may not be new, but it's important. Deborah Tannen is a respected socio-linguist. Her research shows that in general (not all, but a majority of) men tend to communicate and resolve conflict in an agonistic way and in general women use different methods. She makes it clear that neither method is good or bad on its own, or that men or women who communicate and resolve conflict differently are good or bad. What Tannen suggests is that we ought to understand these general differences and consider how to improve our dialogue so that not every discussion is a competition with winners and losers. I am suggesting this applies very much to communication and conflict "resolution" on Misplaced Pages, and we need to tone it down - especially if we want to recruit and keep a more diverse group of editors (women and non-white). The current environment is advantageous to one group: men educated in Western institutions (and the fortunate others whose personal dispositions happen to work in such an environment). Lightbreather (talk) 17:33, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Maybe the first chapter explains what I'm talking about better:
--Lightbreather (talk) 17:38, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
I did put it on the resources list, by the way. Excellent comments and just bought the book. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:09, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

WMF slide on recent state of gender

Slide 6, presented by Anasuya the other day at the quarterly metrics meeting. See also a few of the subsequent slides. And an interesting dialogue between some key players at the meeting, here. Tony (talk) 04:35, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Curious to know how they know that articles that are of interest to women are underrepresented. Since women are 51% of the population, that's a rather large pool. Have they done a study to indicate what these interests are?Two kinds of porkBacon 17:13, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi TKOP. Yes, the statement is based on a study: Lam 2011. You can find the information you are looking for in paragraph 4.2. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 17:26, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm a woman and slide7, "Gender content gap is widespread & persistent" is of interest to me, particularly as it relates to WP:WMNWRITE, a WikiProject I founded last month. I was looking over the number of articles that exist on the EN language Misplaced Pages regarding Angolan women writers. Did you know that I could only find one, Ana Paula Ribeiro Tavares, within Category:Angolan writers and its subcats? This factoid makes me sad... 2014... just one article on an Angolan woman writer. So if you know me, you can guess that I'll spend some time trying to increase the number of articles on Angolan women writers. But not today as I just feel worn out. I'm assuming that the research on underrepresented articles includes factoids such as the one about Ribeiro Tavares, a factoid which isn't hard to discover. --Rosiestep (talk) 19:39, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
Not to worry, take a break and have some fun! Africa wasn't built in a day ... :) Djembayz (talk) 20:48, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
👍 Like Thanks to Tony for bringing this to our attention. The slide and dialogue bring out some key issues, using just a very few words, about the current state of play on both the content and participation side. Djembayz (talk) 20:48, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Well, the trick is for some of us to create content, which is what the encyclopedia is supposed to be about, and then for the rest of us to mutually support the creation of content from the trolls who try to AfD things as "not notable." And for NO ONE to get run off the wiki by the trolls!!! (Strategic retreat, occasionally, and if desperate, a wikibreak, but no quitting!) One place to look is also at the guidelines themselves, which, by the way, anyone can also edit... Montanabw 03:32, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
These numbers make me sad. Women represent 22-30% of newcomers, but only 8-16% of active editors. Just recovering those that did not stay active would be great - before even recruiting more women! Is there a way to contact those who are inactive and invite them to join the GGTF?
Are we allowed to advertise outright? Why not run ads (using WMF money) in magazines and on websites where women who are likely to make good editors congregate? Women in tech, women writers, and ??? Lightbreather (talk) 18:01, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Not a bad idea. But we might get a better response if the WMF reaches out to these places and encourages them to write a story about women and wikipedia and why their readers should participate. This too would cost money. But if we went with your suggestion, what would an ad look like? What sort of magazines would reach the target audience? Publications for primary school educators might be a good place to start.Two kinds of porkBacon 13:38, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
As for a print magazines, I might try AARP, appealing to retired women with lifetimes of experience and free time on their hands. The AARP website, too. University alumni magazines/web sites? Retirement fund magazines? Lightbreather (talk) 20:55, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Oh! And Facebook ads! Lightbreather (talk) 21:06, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
  • @Tony1: and @Iselilja:, thanks for pointing this out. Hard data like this is exactly what is needed to convince skeptics there is indeed a gender gap in terms of not only editors but content. For those of you who haven't looked at the slides, a NSF study shows that college men tend to focus on science and engineering fields and college women focus on the arts and humanities.Two kinds of porkBacon 13:47, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
Let us not forget Draft Resources/Research studies . Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:17, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
Absolutely. It was there I found the link to the study (which was only mentioned by name in the slide). Very valuable overview. I posted a link to your page at Norwegian Misplaced Pages and was thanked for that by an editor there. (Norwegian Wikimedia has an upcoming seminar about the gender gap issue). Iselilja (talk) 16:25, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I really dislike the phrase "Articles on topics of interest to women", you know.. pink stuff, cupcakes, lipstick, that sort of thing - is that what they mean? If it's not then what do they mean? Women scientists? Women politicians? Women explorers? Why would that not be of little / no interest to men? --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 16:11, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I dislike it too, and there's absolutely no reason at all why men wouldn't be equally interested in women scientists, politicians, explorers and even feminists. Have you seen the work that's been done recently on Florence Nagle for instance? Much of it by men? Eric Corbett 16:49, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
I don't know who used the phrase 'Articles on topics of interest to women' or where or why, so making generalizations about what someone allegedly thinks somewhere not too helpful.
I know that I would work mostly on important political topics of interest to me, if I could ever get back to editing. (For almost a year I had to hide my article list and avoid my favorite topics so articles wouldn't be gutted.) But the day after the community dealt with one form of Wikihounding, another was initiated. So I have to waste all my budgeted wiki time finding diffs of bad behavior here for an Arbitration. But I guess that happens to male editor all the time with no one taking it seriously complaint after complaint... it's not some gender gap thing... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:03, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Straw poll on priorities, direction, and tactics

The text that accompanies the WMF slide on recent state of gender which Tony mentions above suggests two different directions:

1. Transform the overall Misplaced Pages community into a more positive experience for women
2. Create smaller spaces within the existing community designed for participation by women

Either approach has pros and cons, and the consequences aren't entirely clear.

Which direction would GGTF members prioritize at this point? Is your favored approach a means to an end, or your preferred end result? Are there any possibilities for unforeseen consequences we should consider?

Discuss. -- Djembayz (talk) 20:50, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

First one, I'd say. There are certainly some issues which are not covered or are not adequately covered enough within Misplaced Pages and who's main audience is women. More civility and the like enforcement is needed. 2nd would create rifts in the community as you can't really bar 50% of the population from participating in something, and who's to say that someone isn't and is a woman? Some verification process? Gender identity is a thing and it gets quite filthy and controversial when people don't respect it. But, if it's meant for participation for women, but men are not excluded or discouraged from it, then that would be fine. Similar to the women's only hotel rooms who the hotel got sued for gender discrimination (and they lost) so they had to rent the rooms to men. They still made it suited to women's needs, so that they complied with the order, but it was really meant for women. Tutelary (talk) 01:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
  • #1, without question (though I am not necessarily agreeing with anything else Tutelary is saying) I don't think women need the "short bus" - or a ghetto. So, for me, #2 is an insult, right up there with half-size basketball courts and fainting couches. People of color, people who are LGBT, all sorts of people are underrepresented on wikipedia. (I for one am appalled at the systemic bias and racism that impacts Native Americans) The only long-term solution is to work on is #1 and here, women's rights have some unique aspects, but in many ways they are also HUMAN rights and if things are better for women, it would create a better environment for everyone. People want a safe space, they can plot offline and within safe places like the geek feminism wiki (god knows that the trolls use Wikipediocracy as their recruiting ground...). I disfavor the "oh honey, let me help you across the street" attitude. To expand that metaphor, I can cross the street all by myself, thank you very much, but I would appreciate it if they WOULD fix the traffic lights and enforce the speed limit so I'm not risking life and limb every time I try... Montanabw 02:31, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Safe spaces on Misplaced Pages are impossible. Better enforcement of existing rules is the answer. We need a "recruit women to edit a lot in non controversial areas and make friends, make them admins, and then clobber the trolls" strategy. :-) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:31, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Misplaced Pages metrics clearly show that long-term editors tend to edit content in a specific area, so I disagree to some extent. I had no trouble making wiki-friends from the get go AND finding controversy landing on my head in the simplest and one would think most non-controversial of places. AND my worst "I'm sick of this shit and I want to quit" fights were originally with editors who appear to be female. My first huge dustup was with a woman editor over, of all things, the correct pronunciation of chaps (where I stuck to my guns and won); my second biggest dustup was editing rodeo articles and encountering the ItsLassieTime sockpuppet, who had dozens of personas, but may well have been female, given the editing pattern (and it was me sticking to my guns again that exposed the whole sock drawer...) ; so, IMHO it is for us, the more experienced, to Defend Each Other! and help newer editors stay safe on these mean streets. Montanabw 19:33, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
Editors can help each other out when we have the time and psychic energy and can figure out what the dispute is about. That's what many of the noticeboards about. Letting a group of women or women-friendly guys here know about problems a lot of women experience differently than men, from incivility to harassment to pervs wanting to talk dirty on our talk pages, to getting late night stalker calls, to double standards applied to us regarding behavior and/or editing is certainly a goal here.
I have seen lately that some editors create tight little gangs of editors who defend each other right or wrong. That should not be a goal here. Meanwhile, when it comes to looser alliances, individuals will choose to join them or not. I tend to go by principles myself and am always happy to find allies on those principles. And sometimes we just have to go it alone, at least til we drift into the right noticeboard where people "get" the problem. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:32, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

To address Djembayz's question, in part at least, this is a false dichotomy. Because the question has been framed in terms of "gender gap", the research has focused on women, but without a control group. That is, questions tend to be asked only of women, and not groups of editors as a whole, so that you can compare populations of women/men with arts/sciences types of editors, which might pull out statistically significant differences, or some completely unexpected information. For instance, who can say that this type of exchange, ("Why are you trying to pin the blame on me for your own indolence/incompetence? You've had plenty of time to fix this article, but you haven't done it".), which someone put on Jimbo's talk page a few days ago, is good for the project as a whole? Who would want to stick around a job like that, even for pay? And yet this remark was addressed to a female editor, who subsequently stopped editing. So is this a "gender problem" because the remark was addressed to a female editor, or a "Misplaced Pages problem" because it creates a toxic editing environment. —Neotarf (talk) 22:37, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Obviously incivility (and harassment) are a problem for most editors. In general, women will get turned off to it faster as various studies have shown and thus it becomes a Gender Gap issue. One of the things I wanted to do, but constant disruptions prevented, was to go through the studies and just list their main findings as a separate document. Now behind on so many things don't have time. But anyone who wants to give it a try can check out Draft GGTF Resources. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:19, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Djembayz could you update the links to the text and slide(s) you're referring to? Lightbreather (talk) 18:06, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
@Lightbreather, I don't see anything wrong with the text. Slide 6 is here. —Neotarf (talk) 20:11, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
I read the text, but there was a lot of it. I was wondering which parts led Djembayz to say that it suggests two different directions: 1. Transform the overall Misplaced Pages community into a more positive experience for women, and/or 2. Create smaller spaces within the existing community designed for participation by women. Lightbreather (talk) 20:36, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Re: Edit-a-thons. They always seem to be about writers, artists and scientists. All are valuable, but what about the rest of the humanities: sociology, psychology, psychiatry, economy etc.? Where are the recruitment drives from both male and female editors who work in these areas who have an in-depth, professional take on what makes people tick. Surely that would be beneficial to Misplaced Pages as a whole. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 16:27, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Different groups do different subjects. The DC WP group has done a lot of different ones. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Remove redirect

I want to create the article Congressional Caucus for Women's Issues but currently that redirects to Caucuses of the United States Congress. Can someone please remove the redirect so that Congressional Caucus for Women's Issues shows up as a red link on the page Caucuses of the United States Congress, so that I can make it an article? I'm really bad at this and I tried to look up how to do it but I don't get it, so if someone could do it for me that would be great. Please let me know on my Talk page. Thanks. Maranjosie (talk) 20:25, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi Maranjosie, I've left a note about this on your talk page. Best, SlimVirgin 21:36, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! That fixes it!Maranjosie (talk) 02:09, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
For anyone else facing this issue, you can create an article by editing a redirect page. If you enter the page title and the redirect target page comes up, it will have a message at the top "Redirected from <redirect name>." Simply click on the redirect name to go back to the redirect, without being redirected! Of course if the page has previously been deleted or merged it pays to exercise a little common sense. All the best: Rich Farmbrough16:41, 8 October 2014 (UTC).

Women's History Barnstar

I'm thinking it would be cool to have a barnstar for people who help write articles on women and feminism, especially since Misplaced Pages has a gender gap. So how about the Women's Work Barnstar, for editors (of any gender) who make significant contributions to articles about women, women's history, and/or feminism? Over on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Misplaced Pages Awards under the section I wrote about this (Proposed Barnstar) you can upload a design for this barnstar for consideration. Thanks! Maranjosie (talk) 02:09, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Instead of framing the issue as a "women's barnstar", in the fashion of dividing the world of authors into "writers" and "female writers", why not a "science barnstar" for improving the coverage of science issues by adding women scientists, or an "artists barnstar" for improving the coverage of the arts by adding articles about women artists. Focusing on the professional aspect might also discourage gender symbols or fluffy bunny designs for professionals whose work had nothing to do with gender. You could also give a whole lot more barnstars that way, and maybe even recognize people for designing barnstars, or recognize Wikiprojects who have their own gender-awareness barnstars. Contest, anyone? —Neotarf (talk) 23:00, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
Ok, I'll do a Women's History Barnstar. I like that topic best. I'll put my version on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Misplaced Pages Awards, and anyone who wants to can approve it or disapprove it. Maranjosie (talk) 14:00, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
It's up! Let me know what you think. Maranjosie (talk) 16:22, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
I love it! But can we have an all-purpose one that uses the GGTF "Mind the Gap" logo? Lightbreather (talk) 16:37, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Actually, I see there is a Mind the Gap Award on the task force's main page, but a barnstar version would be great. I would l-o-v-e if the very first barnstar that I ever receive is such an honor! Lightbreather (talk) 16:41, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Gender inequality in the United States

Can somebody help me out? Baileybrash (talk · contribs) improved Gender inequality in the United States to a much higher quality just under a year ago, and experienced GA reviewer Khazar2 (talk · contribs) declined to pass it, but said the improvements were still worthwhile. It has been sitting awaiting a second GA review for over six months, Baileybrash has not edited since April and Khazar2 is now retired.

So what can we do? I could review the GA candidate, but this topic isn't my area of expertise. And when I'd finished the review, how would I know if anyone would be willing to resolve the issues or not? If somebody here would like to take on the review, and somebody else independently tackle the improvements, I think it would do this project a great credit. Ritchie333 12:46, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Maybe post it at the GA cup, they are trying to get more articles reviewed. Montanabw 04:40, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
Have you made the same notice at WT:FEMINISM? Lightbreather (talk) 15:45, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Stop Porn Culture for deletion

FYI notice of AfD:

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Stop Porn Culture is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Stop Porn Culture until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.. --Pudeo' 11:24, 9 October 2014 (UTC) Lightbreather (talk) 14:35, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

NFL owners, execs view powerful video on domestic violence awareness

A similar kind of video for the issues of Misplaced Pages and Wikipedians would be helpful-- is there one already?

  • And another NFL link, which may have a familiar ring if you substitute the phrases "instance of incivility", "it's our job to write articles and "the credibility of the enyclopedia."

Surely with all the public attention on these issues, we have an opportunity to move our own organization forward. -- Djembayz (talk) 23:39, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Just another example of online insanity. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:04, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for posting that link, Carol (Catherine Buni and Soraya Chemaly, "The Unsafety Net: How Social Media Turned Against Women", The Atlantic, 9 October 2014). It's shocking and definitely worth reading. SlimVirgin 03:43, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Just another troll site. They exist to get a rise out of people. Alt.tasteless would be proud. The majority of the participants in these groups no doubt feel their obnoxious behavior is just harmless good fun. Sadly it's only a matter of time, before some seriously disturbed person joins the fray and feels license to turn obnoxious behavior into something far worse. Think Amana Todd meets Sandy Hook. Reacting to trolls fans their fire. Unobtrusive monitoring by volunteers and law enforcement, coupled with some high profile prosecutions is what's needed. And speaking of troll organizations, I'm surprised there isn't a list article here. We might be better off not having one, as it could be more trouble than it's worth.Two kinds of porkBacon 05:35, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Polish monument to Misplaced Pages

Read about this on Facebook Misplaced Pages Women facebook page and now on Talk:Jimbo Wales. As I asked there, Are those figures genderless or castrati? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:54, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I've dropped in precisely because of this. I believe they're all men. Can you believe that? I mean ... um ... . It's a very impressive work, and someone has done very well to produce it, but I couldn't promote it or feel anything but embarrassment. It's sad. Tony (talk) 09:49, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
They don't seem to have anything between their legs, they might have been castrated and penectomized. Violence against male sexual organs is not cool. --Pudeo' 15:11, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
They're obviously male - not genderless. They have narrow hips, wide shoulders, and - most telling - crotch bulges. None appear to have breasts. Lightbreather (talk) 16:47, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
That's right, this is Catholic Poland. Not Dutch Amsterdam or Venice Italy. So of course they aren't going to show the explicit sexual details. OK, perhaps we can indicate to the Powers that Be that a nice letter explaining how they should have at least one woman in there would be really great! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:56, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Wrong. (It's a piece of art -- not a social statement. If the artist had made one or two of the figures explicitly women, and these figures are together lifting overhead a heavy globe, it would be a distraction to the art theme. ) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 18:13, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Imagine the Misplaced Pages sh*tF*t if it had been obviously all women by a woman artist? In any case, art can be crappy and people can say so. It's still legal. In any case, I thought it was going up a year from now, but it's this October, so a bit late. But hopefully they have or will have a plaque mentioning women editors. Actually, it's probably best that Polish Misplaced Pages women editors approach whom so ever. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:21, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Yoo, ha. Found the Polish article on the statue and asked the question on the talk page, using my best Google Translate polish. :-) Better late than never noticed a Polish Gender studies group so left message there too. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:31, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Update: Message on my talk page says an earlier model shared by someone on Polish Misplaced Pages shows a couple women, but they don't know if til they see the actual statue unveiled. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Queen Bodicca doing something men would typically be assigned to do, for the raw muscle power needed and managing not to distract from the art theme. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 17:27, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Not sure if that's what someone said about it or speculation. Anyway, maybe the women were too big bosomed for the Polish politicians so they demanded it more gender neutral. We shall wait expectantly for Oct. 22. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:46, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

NPOV: pornography portal/ project, but no anti-pornography portal / project?

Should there be a Pornography portal / project and an Anti-pornography portal / project, or should the existing one be re-named "Pornography debates" or something similar, with more being added to the anti-pornography POV? Before anyone says, "Just because it is called the pornography portal / project doesn't mean that it is pro-porn." I would say look at the project's scope and the portal's list of categories. There isn't much for those looking for the anti-pornography POV. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 17:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

There is a need for the anti-side to be presented. I'm also intrigued by the misogynist troll dramafest that will undoubtably erupt if either method is tried, but given that there are only 24 hours in a day and some of us have to eat and sleep as well as work for a living, I'd recommend waiting until Gamergate and the ArbCom case die down so those of us who are useful in a street fight aren't pulled 16 ways by other dramas the way we are at the moment. There are more trolls, and they don't have to eat or sleep as much because I suspect that they all just live in their mommy's basement. In the meantime, I'd spend some time and energy finding more allies who will be useful so that when you do drop the hammer, you don't have to fly solo, but you also won't have flaky allies who will pull your efforts off into some sort of stupid thing that is mostly a personality conflict like this stupid ArbCom case. Montanabw 21:31, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
First, can we be civil with others' proposal and not insult both alleged pornography users and allegedly flakey "allies" or call the project stupid? It's really uncalled for and tacky.
In any case, it's only worth creating the "anti-pornography project" if a) you have enough articles to support a project and b) enough participants interested in keeping it going and and c) enough energy to put up with the brouhaha. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:20, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
WikiProjects shouldn't have a point of view. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 00:23, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
I should have said: and if you survive a challenge to the existence of the project based on whatever arguments editors might offer. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:28, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of List of American higher education institutions with open Title IX sexual violence investigations for deletion

FYI notice of AfD:

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of American higher education institutions with open Title IX sexual violence investigations is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of American higher education institutions with open Title IX sexual violence investigations until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion is currently focused on the historical importance (or lack there of) of the list.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.. Thebrycepeake (talk) 01:17, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

RFC on gender based category

Please participate in RFC regarding whether or not the article 2014 Isla Vista killings (the killing spree of Elliot Rodgers) should be in the category "Violence against men" . This category has been described as a category: "for articles on the topic of sexual or gender-based violence against men or boys". --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

BoboMeowCat is directly involved in this discussion, proposed the RfC, actively thinks that the cat should be removed, etc. Tutelary (talk) 02:31, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Readers are free to read my (and Tutelary's) vote on RFC if for some reason they are interested in personal opinions, but Tutelary your comment here seems inappropriate because my notice of RFC was neutrally worded and in accordance with RFC guidelines for community input. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:43, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Who else but involved people post notifications? Please, no more challenging proper notifications here. If it's really a problem you can find an admin to warn the participant. Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes, this is neutrally worded. However I fail to see how this is relevant to the interests of the GGTF. If this RfC is perceived to be a battle of the sexes request, this might be perceived as canvassing. But I'll AGF and assume BoboMeowCat was a good kitty (unlike mine who just tried to escape) and notified a wide variety of projects.Two kinds of porkBacon 04:14, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Canvassing#Appropriate_notification: The talk page of one or more articles, WikiProjects, or other Misplaced Pages collaborations directly related to the topic under discussion. Nothing in policy about variety of pages or the topic at hand, be it battle of the sexes or global warming. The question may be a more philosophical issue of gender gap coverage than others, but it is relevant. I myself am undecided about the whole thing and raised various issues there. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 04:26, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Not canvassing. I also posted RfC notices to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject California. Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard (because there has been talk of making a separate bio page for perp, Elliot Rodger). Trying to get as many eyes on this as possible, because we've had issues in past because we can not reach consensus, and previous postings to noticeboard didn't get new eyes on the issue (same people debated same things, but just moved it to original research noticeboard). Posted it here because it is a gender based category, and this is only gender wikiproject I'm aware of. If you can suggest any wikiprojects or pages that relate, please do so, or even repost this notice elsewhere yourself. The wider the community input the better --BoboMeowCat (talk) 04:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Notifications need to be balanced and non-partisan. Ideally a posting here would be balanced elsewhere. I too dont have a suggestion, but the NPOV board might have an idea. I'm not coming after you, just pointing out how you could do better the next time.Two kinds of porkBacon 04:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Why wouldn't people reading this page be concerned about gender issues involving men as well as women? Seems like the people who died in this unfortunate event deserve respect regardless of their gender. If you think another group of editors would be interested, by all means add the notice there. Making this site work involves finishing the work others have started for us, and explaining what we are doing, so they can do it themselves next time. (It's easier to learn wiki editing by viewing examples than from explanations.) -- Djembayz (talk) 12:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Do Wikipedians/WMF prefer arguing to actually working on fixing the problem?

Surprising discovery this morning. The page you are now reading, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force, has been viewed 3909 times in the last 30 days. By contrast, the Gender gap strategy page, where WMF is recruiting volunteers to actually work on improving the situation, has been viewed only 4 times today. What gives? -- Djembayz (talk) 12:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

If I'm like most people, they see the word "meta" attached to anything and say meh.Two kinds of porkBacon 12:15, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Could you explain more? If this is something that people actually care about, what's the difference between it being posted on Meta instead of here? Should it go somewhere else? -- Djembayz (talk) 12:29, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Wikimedia.org really is used more by those interested in foundation work or working among various foundation projects. I don't think much controversial happens there.
English Misplaced Pages is watched by tens of millions. This task force is doubtless watched or visited regularly by lots of editors, admins, researchers, journalists, government agents, etc. interested in what uppity females, supportive males and potential or actual trolls are up to. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages articles are visited by tens of millions, mostly only folks who have edited read talk pages and then only to catch up on the soap operas. J3Mrs (talk) 14:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
According to stats.grok.se, the page has been viewed 139 times in October, and as of today, 661 times in the last 30 days. (I think I've visited it myself at least twice in the last month.) isaacl (talk) 17:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
To get back to Djembayz question, I think if you read my timeline at Arbitration you'll see that bad faith editors with snide questions and criticisms have (and still are) discouraged and disgusted editors interested in figuring out goals and projects. So a lot of people pretty much have given up on the project cause they are tired of the fighting. That leaves some of us to be scapegoated for others' bad faith disruption. I'm pretty fed up myself; just reacting to random stuff that's posted. Maybe Arbitrators will understand. I'm sure if a bunch of women went to the WP:WikiProject Men's Issues and started similar stuff, we'd have been blocked within days and there would be no need for Arbitration. Hmmm, how come men get to be men and women end up "gender"? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:04, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Sue Gardner article

I just was looking at it for a factoid and corrected a ce. I did notice it says nothing in the text about the WMF Gender Gap project, though that's doubtless what she is best known for. And doesn't mention why she left or what she moved on to doing, though User:Sue Gardner gets into that. Research from RS needed. So if someone wants to update it before I get a chance... :-) Lots of refs on her at Draft Resources page, among other places. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Research and Data Showcase

Today's mw:Analytics/Research and Data/Showcase presentation began with a report on word choices by male and female editors. My oversimplified summary is that women here use somewhat more personal pronouns and positive words than male editors. Overall, the communication patterns aren't too different from what is found in other research, although our experienced women editors may be less uncertain or anxious than women from other places. If anyone's interested, it can be watched now on YouTube. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:21, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I haven't had a chance to look at the video. While the report may say that experiences are similar to those found in other research, but it emphasizes other differences:
"Emotions under Discussion: Gender, Status and Communication in Misplaced Pages" By David Laniado
I will present a large-scale analysis of emotional expression and communication style of editors in Misplaced Pages discussions. The talk will focus especially on how emotion and dialogue differ depending on the status, gender, and the communication network of the about 12000 editors who have written at least 100 comments on the English Misplaced Pages's article talk pages. The analysis is based on three different predefined lexicon-based methods for quantifying emotions: ANEW, LIWC and SentiStrength. The results unveil significant differences in the emotional expression and communication style of editors according to their status and gender, and can help to address issues such as gender gap and editor stagnation.
So it does look quite interesting. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:29, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

New "resources" articles, research, and projects pages

Thinking about past discussion of how to use this mass of material at my "Draft resources page", I realized the best thing would be to create three pages of the least controversial links:

At the original "Draft resources page" I have left the material that does not directly mention Misplaced Pages or that is not "reliable sources".

  • Related projects
  • Research studies/writings on similar topics and/or communities
  • Books
  • Interesting blog and other articles

We could create a GGTF/Related resources page to be called "Related projects and writings" if people want. Though it come become way too much of kitchen sink, in case people want to think about how to describe what should or should not be there. Thoughts? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:17, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Carol, this sounds like a great idea. Tony (talk) 00:42, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

IEG research project—midpoint report

This may be of interest. Tony (talk) 00:40, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

University of Sydney gender diversity Wikibomb

I encountered Canberra Wikibomb last August and mentioned it on this page, see archive. I have now noticed WP:Meetup/Sydney/University of Sydney Wikibomb which concerns a gender diversity event on 31 October 2014. The August event involved many new female editors creating articles on women scientists, and the Sydney event will presumably be similar. Participants here may like to help in some way because this is a good opportunity to recruit female editors. Their main problem is the complete culture shock concerning what writing an article for Misplaced Pages involves, from trivia like wikisyntax to more important issues like NPOV language and copyvios. Johnuniq (talk) 01:28, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

It would be good to advertise this on the Australian noticeboard on en.WP. Don't bother with the chapter: it's dead. Tony (talk) 07:39, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Lorie Masters for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Lorie Masters is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lorie Masters until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 00:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Survey re: gender gap on EN Wiki

As a part of my IEG, Women & Misplaced Pages, I've created a survey re: the gender gap on the English language Misplaced Pages. Any and all editors (of all genders and sexes from all countries) who contribute to EN Wiki are welcome to take it--and participation is much appreciated!

Note: A few participants have had issues with the survey, which is run via Qualtrics, timing out. I know that Qualtrics doesn't work well on Chrome, so you may want to try IE or Safari. --Mssemantics (talk) 12:26, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Mssemantics@ this page is a redirect which Ghostery blocks. Would be good if that could be fixed. All the best: Rich Farmbrough21:44, 20 October 2014 (UTC).
Thanks, Rich. Pinging Mssemantics to make sure she sees this. SlimVirgin 01:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi Rich. This talk page or the Qualtrics survey page? Thanks! --Mssemantics (talk) 23:56, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Mssemantics@ The Qualtrics survey. All the best: Rich Farmbrough00:50, 22 October 2014 (UTC).
Slim Virgin@ the {{@}} template pings too. All the best: Rich Farmbrough00:50, 22 October 2014 (UTC).

Nomination of Pilar Montero for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Pilar Montero is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Pilar Montero until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.Maranjosie (talk) 15:37, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Octavia Butler petition

Thought some of you might be interested in this petition to make Octavia Butler the World Fantasy Award statue instead of H.P. Lovecraft, who was racist: http://www.change.org/p/the-world-fantasy-award-make-octavia-butler-the-wfa-statue-instead-of-lovecraft Maranjosie (talk) 13:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for letting us know, Maranjosie. SlimVirgin 01:55, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Create category

Could somebody please create the category 18th-century women scientists? There are a lot of women we could add, and it seems odd that 17th-century women scientists is a category but 18th-century is not. I would create it myself but I'm not really good at these things. Thanks. Maranjosie (talk) 13:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Never mind, I did it. Maranjosie (talk) 17:46, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Need active peer reviewers

The projects Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Feminism/Peer review, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Women's History/Peer review, and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Gender Studies/Peer review really need active peer reviewers, so if some people could click on those articles and add their usernames under the Active Peer reviewers section that would be great. Thanks!

Quote today about taking online harassment seriously / women being driven offline

"There’s a sort of sentiment that online harassment is not real, that we shouldn’t take it seriously. But, you know, as you just showed, Elliot Rodger had his manifesto online and his videos online before he actually took action. So, this is a larger culture of women, you know, one, not being believed about their experiences with online harassment, and when it is seen that they actually are being attacked in really vicious ways, it’s just brushed off as, "Oh, it’s just the Internet," or, you know, it’s just boys being boys, when that’s really not what’s happening here. These threats are very real, whether they are committed or not."

-- Anita Sarkeesian, in today's interview, "Women Are Being Driven Offline ..." -- Djembayz (talk) 00:11, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Djembayz. She argues that women are being driven offline, and that women who watch other women being attacked question whether they want to participate or speak up themselves. SlimVirgin 01:50, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Yuuuuuup. It's a bummer. But as an optimist, I always think there's a solution. Though this isn't quite the space you can talk about them. I'm going to have to try that site (Women.com or something?) you linked to a while back. Feel free to share it again. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
There's really no connection between manifestos of killers and the Internet. The Unabomber had one, written on paper. Nonetheless there are very serious threats made online, by email, and amazingly social media in all its guises.
In the UK "credible threats of violence, harassment, or stalking" are punishable by up to 6 months (soon to be 2 years) imprisonment, under the Communications Act 2003#Malicious communications. I believe there are existing laws in most countries, that criminalise threats of physical harm, at the very least.
Is it credible that women are being "driven offline"? Well in the sense that some, demographically small, number of women (and men) might choose to disengage from social media, very likely.
In terms of the Misplaced Pages Gender Gap we (en:wp community and the WMF) have zero tolerance for threats of physical harm, pretty low tolerance of doxxing and outing, (notable exceptions are a couple of Arbcom screw-ups) and the community will not stand for overt harassment or wiki-stalking.
I'm not sure, then, that this adds anything to the resolution of the key Gender Gap questions, except to support the background concept that the Internet at large is not always a nice place.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough14:44, 21 October 2014 (UTC).
Zero tolerance of threats of harm? Unless you've got friends in high places and claim you were under stress and it was a joke, you mean.
Re no toleration for wikihounding, it took a year of my complaints to admins, at ANI and even at a past arbitration to get a hounder off my back. Considering the outrageous reaction of one of his buddies, I felt like this must be a "Misplaced Pages first", a man being sanctioned for Wikihounding a woman. I noticed another woman didn't get a guy off her back till it went to arbitration. Makes me want to do that analysis of ANIs for double standards vs. males and women (or push Foundation to pay someone to do it) even more. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi Carol, I am a big fan of yours, the work you have done to reduce Misplaced Pages's gender gap has been inspirational. Keep up the good work! - Gem FightMisogynyNow (talk) 22:57, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

University of Sydney gender diversity Wikibomb signup

The University of Sydney is hosting a gender diversity editathon on Friday October 31st about women currently or historically connected with the university. The project page is at Misplaced Pages:Meetup/Sydney/University of Sydney Wikibomb. Any Wikipedians who can attend on the day would be much appreciated (sign up now!) to help train newcomers. If you would like to contribute online (sign up now!), pick a subject and start your research. --99of9 (talk) 00:04, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Good, although already mentioned above. People here might like to comment on what advice should be offered to new female editors—for example, guidance on selection of a user name or on what should be posted on a user page. Johnuniq (talk) 00:23, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Hmmm, would it be too aggressive to consider other forms of conceptual "Wikibombs"? Such as creating memes to facilitate positive change vis-à-vis the gender gap problem? NeoFeminism directly <redacted>, for example: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:IshtarPoster.jpg
I completely understand that while highly effective, some may consider this approach <redacted>. This represents a tough philosophical quandary for #HeForShe #NeoFeminists such as myself. Do my colleagues and I use every tool at our disposal to affect positive change at Misplaced Pages, or do we hold back until <redacted>? GemSophos (talk) 04:42, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
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