Misplaced Pages

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Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

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Harassment of the incoming executive director

Mr Wales, this appears very unprofessional and extremely unkind. Please remind the people on the list that Mr Tretikov is a person too. Hell might be other people (talk) 08:16, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the concern. It's Mr. Sinclair, tho. :) ,Wil 17:53, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the link—that thread is a real eye-opener. However, the very good advice being offered to Lila Tretikov's partner is not at all unprofessional or unkind. The thread starts here. Johnuniq (talk) 11:07, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I consider it helpful advice, and it hasn't struck me as unprofessional or unkind. That said, I also haven't been convinced that I should stop posting on WO, and I continue to post there whenever I feel that it would be constructive to do so. Jimmy, I'll answer some of the questions that have come up here, but let us know if you think there are better forums for this discussion. ,Wil 17:53, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Obviously my interests are a bit narrower in some respects than other editors, but I noticed in a WSJ article here about the appointment Jay Walsh says that Misplaced Pages is pushing for "more transparency" and "reinforcing that paid advocacy is not welcome". However in the string provided above she says she prefers to focus on the message, not the messenger, and that she listens to advocates from Wikipediaocracy despite their corrupted motives and habitual spin. So I was rather getting the impression that she might be soft on paid advocacy, but perhaps I am drawing a false comparison between different types of POV pushers. In either case, I was wondering how her appointment may influence issues like the new Terms of Service or the Wiki-PR legal dispute and what the latest was on these. CorporateM (Talk) 13:23, 25 May 2014 (UTC) (A frequent COI/marketing contributor)

It seems unlikely that her appointment will have any impact on the ongoing trend to root out and further ban paid advocacy editing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:31, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

As pointed out before, I believe that was something that I said. I'm afraid that this might get old, but I emphasize again that I am not Lila and don't have any association with the WMF. ,Wil 17:57, 27 May 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wllm (talk • contribs)

@CorporateM: re: "However in the string provided above she says she prefers". (Emphasis added) Unless I've missed something the thread is by and about her partner, so the above should read he. He's stated multiple times that he is operating independently of his partner, the new ED. When I first heard about him contacting Wikipediocracy, I thought it was a nice, if somewhat naive, gesture on the part of the new ED to offer an olive branch to WO. So I was confused about who was contacting them, and many others likely were as well, but that confusion should now be cleared up.

Since he is an independent editor, he should feel free to ignore my advice, which is:

• Pick a role of either "totally independent editor" or "Caesar's wife" (avoiding even the suspicion of doing something improper), and maintain that distinction without fail
• You may be sorry if you don't take the Caesar's Wife role
• Never trust the "facts" or even the motivations of WO contributors, check everything, assume nothing
• Ignore most of the advice you've gotten on the matter - just folks blowing off steam in a contentious area.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:22, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh thank you very much for clarifying. It seems I falsely presumed the comments in the string were from her. CorporateM (Talk) 22:10, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I believe I have picked the role of "totally independent editor" already. Sorry if that's not clear. I can't imagine that- come what will- Lila or I would be sorry for asserting our individuality under any circumstances. I don't trust any facts without evidence in any forum, including WO or Wikimedia-l. In fact, I would greatly appreciate links that made fact-checking easier. Beyond that, I don't make up my mind about any contentious issue before discussing it with at least one person representing opposing views. Finally, I don't think it would be useful for me to express opinions on these matters even after I've formed them; it seems to be much more productive for me to stick to discussing effective communication and asking questions. I never ignore advice (although I frequently choose not to follow it), but I appreciate your insight on the thread. I'm still a relative newbie. ,Wil 18:05, 27 May 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wllm (talk • contribs)

Mr Wales, I don't know why this thread is being hijacked to talk about corporate editing, but I am very concerned by the tone and contents of the messages on that official wikimedia mailing list. If you could please read the thread there and do something about the horrible harassment I would appreciate it. Hell might be other people (talk) 01:28, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Has the subject expressed an opinion that they feel harassed? Tarc (talk) 01:40, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Many people read this page and would have viewed the link in the OP. The fact that no one has commented about "horrible harassment" is a good indication that there is no such harassment. The linked message is blunt, but it comes after a long sequence of messages providing very accurate and sensationally helpful advice—advice that unfortunately is falling on deaf ears. As noted in the thread, the mess will give the new ED a wonderful opportunity to show her negotiating skills. Johnuniq (talk) 01:51, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

'The subject' has a name. Please at this point, do not objectify him. Wil seems to be keeping a positive spin on events, but which of us can really know if he feels harassed. I cannot incorporate, but just the tone of the veiled threats are a form of harassment, even if he does not issue an audible or visible complaint. So there, I have complained about harassment against Wil, but I will stop short of naming it "horrible". Fylbecatulous talk 20:47, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

It's not so much a matter of opinion as fact: I don't feel harassed. I'd like to hear everything that everyone wants to say, and I feel lucky that so many people have chimed in on what I've said and how I've chosen to participate as a member of the community. Thanks. ,Wil 18:11, 27 May 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wllm (talk • contribs)

• I'm pleased that Wil showed up at WPO and launched a transparent account there. I also think he is right on when he says "Here's where I get confused. If they are exposing serious problems that desperately need fixing, then what does it matter what their motives are? They may or may not choose to be part of the solution, but if we want to build the healthiest community possible isn't it important that we know what's not going right. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I personally care more about the message than the messenger, so it seems to make sense for me to participate there, too..." Of course, his very reasonable perspective has been met with a torrent of abuse of WPO from The Usual Suspects, but that's to be expected. I'm sure that as an intelligent man Wil can figure out who is who and why the shrill people are so shrill. Carrite (talk) 04:52, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Incest in popular culture

Hey Jimbo,

Is it just me, or do you find it incredibly problematic that we have a 160KB article about Incest in popular culture with only thirteen references? I mean, I get the point of some discussion of it, but… Christ, this seems like incredibly creepy cataloguing. Sceptre 23:50, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

'Popular culture' = 'unsourced trivia'. Hadn't you noticed? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:21, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

The article in question is worrisome in more than one way. Beyond questions about verifiability and potential uneasiness about incest, the exclusion of Lot (biblical person) from the list strongly implies that the text which Guinness World Records calls "the worlds best-selling and most widely distributed book" is not considered a part of popular culture. --Allen3  00:30, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Heh, I've been banging that drum for other half a decade, Andy. Sceptre 01:06, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

And have you seen the quality of most of those "references"? What a load of.... If it wasn't after 2am here and I was about to go to bed, I'd take it to AfD right now. If nobody has by the time I'm back tomorrow, I will. Anyone willing to beat me to it? — Scott • talk 01:11, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Out of curiousity... is the intention to AFD just this one article due to squick factor, or to go after all of these ...in popular culture articles? Resolute 04:57, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Neither. It's because this list is a colossal heap of unreferenced crap, as Allen3 explains below, and an embarrassment to the project. It's been that way for at least seven years without any sign of improvement. Spartaz has started a new AfD. — Scott • talk 11:44, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd rather get rid of most IPC articles, but this one is egregious. Sceptre 05:06, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

"X in popular culture" articles tend to all share a common set of problems. First, they almost always violate Misplaced Pages is not a publisher of original thought by introducing the new and novel concept that X is in some manner an important part of/concept in popular culture. Second, because reliable sources defining the scope and limits of popular culture rarely exist they require the editor(s) creating the article to perform some form of "I know it when I see it" test to determine what is or is not part of popular culture. Third, the way to avoid the second problem is to ignore Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information and crowd source an unbounded list of anything that kinda, sorta looks like X. --Allen3  07:32, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

E.g. Necrophilia in popular culture (...1 reference). DeCausa (talk) 07:48, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I have to disagree here. First this is about pop culture, not history or mythology. "Creepy" is a matter of opinion. Sorry, but it is. I have a few incestual relationships in my genealogy. That is how things work in the real world so, yes, pop culture does reflect that. The best example in pop culture are the two characters portrayed by Patricia Quinn (Lady Stephens} and Richard O'Brien in The Rocky Horror Picture Show. Magenta and Riff Raff are brother and sister and carry on an incestual relationship throughout the film. I believe this is what the category should be about. And yes...this can be sourced.--Mark Miller (talk) 08:45, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Maybe, but that doesn't have a bearing on what's actually in these articles. Allen3 has it right: what we actually have is a crowd sourced list of what people think is an example of "X in popular culture". For it to be retained as an article there needs to be sourcing to RS discussing the topic "X in popular culture"...and that rarely exists. But sometimes it does so it's a question of sorting the few specks of wheat from huge amounts of chaff. But most times these articles are just a huge pile of WP:SYNTH DeCausa (talk) 08:58, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes. it has a direct bearing on what is in these articles. As I said, this is pop culture not history. The article should not be touching on subjects outside its scope. I agree that sourcing is important but seriously disagree that it rarely exists.--Mark Miller (talk) 09:13, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

And just about everything in Misplaced Pages is crowd sourced.--Mark Miller (talk) 09:16, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't follow on the comment about pop culture/history. It doesn't matter what the subject area is, to establish encyclopedic notability and avoid OR/SYNTH the topic needs to be discussed in RS, rather than editors deciding a topic exists and then hitting the internet to find examples.DeCausa (talk) 09:33, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

For example, in a historical context we would write about actual, historical figures only. But in pop culture we write about examples only found in popular culture such as "Game of Thrones" or other significant Pop Culture relationships. It doesn't have to be fictitious, but must be a part of the pop culture phenomenon.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:12, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think anyone said that "X in popular culture" was a problem because it didn't cover actual peolple/things. DeCausa (talk) 20:00, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree in general, DeCausa, but I suspect that this might ironically be a justifiable in popular culture article topic. Certainly the use of incest is a known trope due to its squick factor (i.e.: Cersei and Jaime Lannister). I wouldn't be surprised if there is a reasonable amount of literature from which to write an actual article. These bare trivia lists are no good, however. Resolute 18:55, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I really agree that "Bare trivia list are no good". I generally don't like those bullet listed pop culture sections. I like fully researched and sourced prose and I prefer it be more along the lines of "Cultural impact" or "Cultural significance" or something along those lines. I tend to dislike the straight trivia listings.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:07, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I've added the following remark at the deletion discussion (addressing Scott):

• "The Beatles' influence on popular culture likewise consists of hundreds of snippets of information and has just 22 citations. Of course you wouldn't have the slightest chance of getting that article deleted, although the arguments you cite here are just as valid there. In reality there's no need to cite most of the assertions here, verifiability is easily accomplished simply by turning to the work cited (a review perhaps, or its own wiki article) and checking that what is asserted for it is matter of fact true. Just as there is a genuinely encyclopaedic article for the Beatles, so is there scope for a genuinely encyclopaedic article for Incest in Fiction. Since you're proposing a total re-write, why not just write it under that article name and allow this one to coexist? "

It worries me that Scott has brought the discussion here. This is the second AfD discussion for that article. I can't relly see what's changed. This time the article is faring badly, Keeps being reverted to Deletes under prompting from Scott. One can surmise that a more sophisticated editor, less likely tolerant of popular list type articles, congregate here at Jimbo's Talk page. I don't think it's quite fair. Can someone suggest a Talk page of an administrator known to be sympathetic to popular articles where I can raise the article in an effort at counterbalance? There is already a scholarly article Transgressive fiction that addresses inter alia the theme of incest in fiction. If Scott feels there should be a scholarly article devoted to incest alone, then I think in the first place he should take the time to write it, or at least provide a stub making it clear the kind of treatment he would wish to see. We can then sensibly debate whether the popular article should or should not coexist. I'm quite clear in mind it should be allowed to coexist. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 19:34, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

• I think you'll find that this discussion was not "brought here", it was started here; nor was it started by me; nor did I file the AfD first. Also, what, exactly, has my being an administrator got to do with any of this? I'll answer for you: nothing. As to if Scott feels there should be a scholarly article devoted to incest alone, I think in the first place he should take the time to write it - no. That's not how it works. — Scott • talk 20:02, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

  Ah yes, that's right about "bringing it here". Beg your pardon. I made no suggestion about your being an administrator. I meant someone likely to have a frequently visited Talk page as Jimbo has. With respect, I'm suggesting that's how it should work regarding the rewrite. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 20:18, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

  This apparently is how it works (a young admin encourages an elderly editor to contribute an article to Misplaced Pages):

Oh please, please, do enlighten "us" (who's that again?) about the true nature of my agenda. After that, why don't you go and produce that article you're dangling over us, oh great writer of our times, since it's so easy for you? Because, you know, you wouldn't want us to think that you're full of hot air. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 03:56, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is supposed to be an encyclopaedia. Can you point to any other encyclopaedias that have 'popular list type articles' of the form our article takes? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:39, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Don't believe I can. That's one of the things that makes Misplaced Pages special for me. An article like The Starry Night (Vincent van Gogh's most popular painting) contains elements of both scholarship and popular culture, and I applaud that and would want to encourage it. I can't believe this has not been debated before. If you want to get rid of all these popular culture articles Andy, then reopen the debate at an appropriate forum, but I don't see why a particular example should be singled out in this way and in this manner. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 19:46, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

It is being 'singled out' as a particularly obvious example of something that doesn't belong in anything describing itself as an encyclopaedia. Or are all the other encyclopaedias wrong to exclude lists of random examples cobbled together for no good reason? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:59, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

No idea really why it's being singled out. Creepy as far as I can make out, perhaps because it's an easy target? Your guess as good as mine. But it is being singled out is it not? The same points apply just as equally the Beatles article. Yes they are in my view. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 20:18, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok, if you think that other encyclopaedias are wrong to exclude such material, what arguments would you put forward for its inclusion if you had the opportunity to make the suggestion? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:28, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

The point is that other encyclopaedias aren't able to provide these kind of articles. Misplaced Pages is uniquely able to and does so. I would like to see Misplaced Pages eventually become a repository of ongoing commentary about the world we live, a digest of social media commentary. Thus I embrace the popular. I notice you oversee at the Strauss-Kahn affair article. You might have noticed I started a "Popular Culture" section there, including in it the recent 2014 film Welcome to New York in the section. It's consistent. But this is not the discussion I came to contribute here. Rather I wanted to express my concerns about this particular article that Scott said he would AfD, whether it was he or not that eventually initiated. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 20:55, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok, if you think Misplaced Pages should transform itself into "a digest of social media commentary", make the proposal in the appropriate place. Meanwhile, since it purports to be an encyclopaedia, I suggest we carry on acting accordingly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:04, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

No, I'm saying the popular should be allowed to coexist beside the scholarly, and I look forward to a time when Misplaced Pages becomes a repository of ongoing commentary (I imagine a store of digital ostraka) but I wasn't implying "transform itself". Off to watch Kick Ass and get drunk. Enjoy the rest of your evening with someone else. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 21:19, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

personal privacy verses free information

Suzannah Lipscomb - I thought wiki was a reporter of reported stories? this persons unreported birth name is being publicized by your website, why is that violation of privacy ok with you? Is this primary location http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/no2010030157.html something you want wiki to be republishing? Do you think investigative reporting is something your project should be doing?

Mosfetfaser (talk) 13:08, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

This is currently being discussed in a thread at Talk:Suzannah Lipscomb, so it would be best for any interested parties to reply there.--♦IanMacM♦ 13:23, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Not really - this is a question for Jimbo Wales- a question , a simple one, about his project - I thought wiki was a reporter of reported stories? this persons unreported birth name is being publicized by your website, why is that violation of privacy ok with you? Is this primary location http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/no2010030157.html something you want wiki to be republishing? Do you think investigative reporting is something your project should be doing? Mosfetfaser (talk) 13:33, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I believe that on both full names and dates of birth we should consider the wishes of the subject as one of several key factors in deciding what to publish. Reasonable requests from subjects should be honored whenever we can, but of course if a full name or date of birth is widely reported in multiple sources (as this one may not be?) it's not reasonable to ask us to omit it. Primary sources should be used with care and existence in a database record of births is not generally sufficient to show that the name is notable in the sense of Misplaced Pages. It can, however, be a nice way to give support to a subject's preferred name, if it is the same as their birth record although reported differently elsewhere. In this particular case - which I have not investigated in any detail - is there evidence that the subject objects? That's relevant.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:37, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Addendum - the reference in this case is not to a birth record as I had originally supposed, but to "found: Maids, wives, and mistresses, 2009: t.p. (Suzannah Lipscomb; Univ. of Oxford D.Phil. thesis) thesis cat. inf. form (Suzannah Rebecca Gabriella Lipscomb; b. Dec. 7, 1978)" If I understand that, it's from the publication data of her D. Phil thesis. That doesn't make it notable, I think, I'm just saying where it appears to have come from!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:40, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

thank you for your comments Jimbo Wales - it is clear that the support is from a primary external not reported anywhere else but wikipidia - sadly - attempting to remove it will get me blocked - Mosfetfaser (talk) 13:48, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

privacy, unreported detail - https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Suzannah_Lipscomb&diff=prev&oldid=610205867 - Mosfetfaser (talk) 13:55, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Replaced by one of your administrators - User:NeilN with the position,If the *subject* objects, then we'll discuss.- so is it the position of your website is publish any primary details about living people and only remove it if the subject objects is it jimmy? - https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Suzannah_Lipscomb&diff=610208508&oldid=610205867 - Mosfetfaser (talk) 17:30, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

1) Not an admin. 2) Yes, we do publish full names and birth dates unless there's a good reason not to. We are an encyclopedia after all. Our articles contain standard biographical details. Have you looked at Encyclopedia Britannica perchance? Full birth dates in their biographies. 3) Discussing it here won't affect article content there. --NeilN 17:37, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

1:User:NeilN - Not an admin - good - 2 - you claim " we do publish full names and birth dates unless there's a good reason not to" - jimmy do you support that comment when the details are from a primary location such as this ? http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/no2010030157.html - is your website supposed to be the primary reporter of that source? Mosfetfaser (talk) 17:45, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I believe I have already given you a thorough answer to the same question.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:56, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

yes - you have, but your website and user Neil do not follow your position - I removed Neils addition again - with a comment of remove primary source - wikipedia is a reporter of secondary details about living people - it will be replaced jimmy - please answer - is is this websites place to report primary personal details about living people from sites such as http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/no2010030157.html Mosfetfaser (talk) 18:00, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

User:NeilN is threatening to ban me - https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Mosfetfaser&diff=prev&oldid=610235794

Jimmy, is is this websites place to report primary personal details about living people from sites such as http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/no2010030157.html - Mosfetfaser (talk) 18:07, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea a primary source shouldn't be used? "Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Misplaced Pages; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them... A primary source may only be used on Misplaced Pages to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts..." DeCausa (talk) 18:09, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

So is that it Jimmy? - is that the policy that allows primary reporting of unreported personal details? - Mosfetfaser (talk) 18:13, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Sadly I can answer my own question Jimmy, although you have good intentions you are unable to implement them on your website - I predict that because you do actually care that one day you will disown this site Jimmy - Mosfetfaser (talk) 18:23, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

To add: it's subject to WP:BLPPRIMARY: "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses." DeCausa (talk) 18:26, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes. See Talk:Suzannah_Lipscomb#Date_of_Birth_per_WP:BLPPRIMARY. JoeSperrazza (talk) 18:27, 26 May 2014

Also see User_talk:MdeBohun#WP:OTRS_regarding_Suzannah_Lipscomb_Date_of_Birth_and_middle_names. JoeSperrazza (talk) 22:25, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I think that the whole idea in a nutshell is power: the more power someone has, the less you're allowed to know about them; the less power you have, the less you're allowed to say. This is an international state that allows surveillance, not sousveillance. Those who come to Misplaced Pages and countless other sites online looking for the advertised inexhaustible well of knowledge ever so gradually need to be re-educated to understand that they must trust their betters to decide what is true, and what they're allowed to ask about at all: to transition from communication to worship. It is a long, slow process, and it may not end until one day their descendants are single cubic feet of neural capacity slotted into the instrument panels of the star-crossing gods. Wnt (talk) 02:17, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps as a librarian I can explain the source of the data: The information is the LIbrary of Congress authority file, the primary repository of publicly known basic data about individuals who have written books. It is used universally for all library cataloging in the United States and, for US authors, internationally by way of the international VIAF file. It is used a as a source in many WP articles--I normally use it to help select the authoritative name and to add the birthdate for all articles on authors which do not have the information. The information is added normally at the time the first book by the author is cataloged, and the information is usually taken from the book itself, or information supplied by the author or publisher. In this case it was taken from the title page and publisher's dust jacket of the book mentioned, and from her doctoral thesis. Since the information comes from sources affiliated with the author, it is not absolutely authoritative, for she and her publisher can use what name they choose, and provide or not provide the year and date of birth. In the past, the information also came from a search of reliable sources, but for over the last 20 years at least, the information is taken just as it is supplied. I do not consider it a "public record" in the usual sense; I consider it just a reliable secondary source for the author's public statement in her published works. In general, I think we would be remiss in not using it. DGG ( talk ) 03:30, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Comment - User:Mosfetfaser appears to be violating both WP:AGF and WP:NPA by their persistent attempts to imply that User:Jimbo Wales is personally responsible for the content of a page that he (User:Jimbo Wales) has, as of the timestamp in my signature, not edited. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:19, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages retaining what pages you visited indefinitely?

I just clicked on the banner and was not at all pleased with m:Data_retention_guidelines. I had been under the impression that Misplaced Pages did not make a practice of tracking user reading history at all. But according to the policy, not only do they retain it 90 days, but they then can retain it indefinitely by "anonymizing" the IP addresses by "encrypting" the "most specific" part of the IP address, a process which they admit may not actually protect identity. Now I understand that UKUSA is the supreme law of every land (even in EU, for all the new consumer-end censorship in the guise of privacy that will only affect the peasants), but how did things go this quickly from the situation where it was supposed to be untracked to the point where it seems entirely plausible for an agency to subpoena all the Misplaced Pages queries for the past ten years and crack the trivial encryption to target one or a million specific users based on their interests? Wnt (talk) 08:11, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

To spell that out, meta:Data retention guidelines includes:

Unless otherwise indicated, we retain the following types of data for no more than the following periods of time:

Data type: Articles viewed by a particular user

Origin: Provided by a user

Examples: A list of articles viewed by a logged-in user

Maximum Retention Period: After at most 90 days, it will be deleted, aggregated, or anonymized

That was added by LuisV (WMF) on 11 February 2014 (diff). That is an enormous change to privacy. Johnuniq (talk) 09:43, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

That wording suggests that the data doesn't even need to be anonymised. WMF could opt for "aggregation" instead, which presumably (?) could just mean migrating or tagging the data. Formerip (talk) 09:56, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Could we perhaps now re-brand our wonderful website to something with a more homely and comforting feel to it? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:07, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, share concerns here. I reviewed the new privacy policy in connection with a matter I posted at the Wikimedia Forum and was absolutely gobsmacked to learn of the pages visited log. A couple of years back, in connection with a request from an activist in the ongoing Arab Spring of the time, I was asked about this and enquired of an administrator about the situation. The reply was that naturally this information was available at engineers' level, but was not routinely logged for individual users. Plainly that's not so. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 10:50, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Hush now there is a lot of money to be paid from selling medical search data to insurance companies. John lilburne (talk) 19:53, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

:) Bugger! I've been blown. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 03:32, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I will look into it. My most recent understanding of current practice may be out of date, but the last I knew, we were logging 1 out of every 1000 pageviews requests and retaining it for just long enough to run some aggregation statistics, i.e. a couple of days or a few days at most. Note well that the policy about what the WMF *may* do necessarily has to involve a much longer retention time than what the WMF *will* do, just so there isn't a privacy policy violation if a cron job fails to run for a week or something of that nature.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:03, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for looking into this. I should explain that my reaction here is shaped by some of the things I don't believe in:

• Random numbers. See Random number generation#Backdoors. As with a person randomly selected for random screening by the TSA, you never know.
• Encryption. The policy claims that "Encrypting or removing/masking the most specific portion of IP addresses" is sufficient to protect users. But we know too well that every encryption key is at great risk of being divulged (most likely because someone will show up with a subpoena and ask for it, but it could be by hacking, surveillance, even brute force). Long term storage of encrypted user data will eventually be long term storage of public user data.
• Security through obscurity. Things like the anonymity of partial IP addresses, "Sanitizing user-agent strings", and so forth are a model for near-perfect user tracking. Even sock-hunting admins, who must be the worst private eyes on the Internet, can track people by a partial IP address and lay charges of various wiki-crimes against people whose identity they have deduced. The NSA is a bit better than that, and given partial IP and user agent string and a continuous list of browsing times and interests I would expect them to have an essentially perfect log.

Now I realize it is unrealistic to suppose that the omnipotent gods of international intelligence would really ever be denied access to our browsing history, no matter how many guarantees are given, but what alarms me about this privacy policy is that it sounds like it's hanging out an open for business sign not just for them, but to every civil and criminal lawyer who wants to go fishing. With these records acknowledged and their existence legitimized, there is no reason why they can't start filing papers, cracking codes, and lining up access dates for whatever reasons they may have. Examples would be a prosecutor looking for proof that a child's few threatening lines in an online game (cf. Justin Carter) were accompanied by ominous sounding research, a Third World police department tracking whether someone they beat and warned against writing an article about someone was still keeping an eye on its content and potentially trying to access via VPN, or a celebrity's lawyers looking for proof that someone is "obsessed" with their client and keeping track of daily developments. Wnt (talk) 16:21, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

A few other things worth noting: the lack of discussion of these things previously may reflect the fact that the discussion was formally closed February 14 at the end of a month-long comment period, and three days after the diff cited above. Also, the policy contains additional exceptions that system backups may contain data for five years (this is the nominal timeframe in Feinstein's bill , the one people said they opposed, and presumably would be openly imposed on companies if the NSA delegates data retention officially), or other exceptions as noted on that page (the classic change at any time privacy policy), or in any inadvertent case. What's unusual is the lack of any provisions about when data is released - most companies say that they only share your data with business partners, advertisers, or any government agent who talks about a warrant (not that they have one, or could get one, but that they think they might want to get one). Wnt (talk) 02:11, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Study of WP's Health Articles

Predictable but interesting bit that's been doing the rounds of the internet this morning. New study involved scientists looking at Misplaced Pages's articles on the 10 most costly medical conditions, and concluded that 9 / 10 of them contain errors. Kudos to the editors of our concussions entry for keeping it spot-on. (Times coverage BBC coverage) ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 16:25, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

I would like to see more explanation of their methods:

• They appear to have had two reviewers pick out every assertion from an article and fact-check them against peer reviewed literature. However, they say they have "blinded" reviewers for some reason. I am reminded of some disputes recently over remote viewing and whether the experiment would be called pseudoscience if any cues exist that potentially would reveal which data is which.
• They assess concordance with the literature as pulled out by Google Scholar or PubMed. But it's not clear which literature. If this is truly an automated, blind procedure, does that mean that papers funded by pharma companies in obscure journals were used for comparison?
• I haven't figured out how the P-values are arrived at, or what the data in Table 3 means. Concussion, the article they approved of (it says that in the paper text also), has 40 24 22 26 62 50 for the numbers of concordant and discordant assertions under three categories of assertions (based on whether reviewers found similar assertions). With no lack of discord, why is that the good one, and not hyperlipidemia where one reviewer found no discordant assumptions?

Bottom line: I regard the systematic test done here of article quality to be an untested procedure. Wnt (talk) 16:59, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

After having glanced over this, I think I have to agree w/ Wnt here that quality of study is dubious. Looking at the authors' credentials leaves something to be desired. As a big supporter of the BBC, I'm a little disappointed they should do such shoddy reporting.

Love the fact that in the BBC piece they say "Up to 70% of physicians and medical students use the tool", while in Time they say "50 percent of physicians admitted using Misplaced Pages as a reference". Is that a discordance or a dissimilar assertion? NickCT (talk) 18:16, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Nice analysis, guys. I wish they elaborated more on their methods. In regards to the contradicting percentages, looks like BBC grabs their up-to-70% figure from the study itself, which cites three other sources. Meanwhile Time grabs their 50%-figure from here, which cites another separate study. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 18:25, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

I wish the folks at Time and BBC were a little more discerning in their analysis. It doesn't seem like either really took time to pull the study apart. NickCT (talk) 19:15, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Maybe Retraction Watch will publish a retraction.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:38, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

See this discussion on WikiProject Medicine. The paper is so fundamentally flawed it "is utterly meaningless and isn't worth the electrons it's printed on". I suggest if any other newspapers contact Misplaced Pages for comment on this piece of trash "science" that they be pointed at that discussion and some of our lead editors involved. Perhaps then the journalists might learn something about how actual science works and that publication in a peer-reviewed journal doesn't make something true. -- Colin° 20:06, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Weird - they equated "mental disorders" with major depressive disorder....hmmmmmm Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:29, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

@Casliber: - We categorize it under Category:Mental and behavioural disorders, no? I guess on this point WP and the paper would be making non-dissimilar assertions? NickCT (talk) 20:58, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

So? mental disorder =/= major depressive disorder...the former includes schizophrenia for starters. Also why does cancer convert to lung cancer? Also "Trauma-related disorders" could include...umm..trauma to...say every other part of the body as well as the head...hmm? Just comes across as fumbling and arbitrary. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:07, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I think I wanna see their raw data. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:20, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I think the most frustrating part of all this is that the points of inaccuracy haven't been revealed, so nothing can be done to correct them, if they are wrong. At that point it just seems irresponsible. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 01:25, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

They wanted to look at the 10 most costly "conditions", presumably Misplaced Pages's information on these is deemed to have a bigger impact, for good or ill, than 10 random conditions. However for 5 of those they had to choose an article representative of the condition, as we don't have an article with that title. For example [[Back problems is a redirect to Back pain.

I look forward to seeing the data from this report analysed by WikiProject Medicine. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:41, 28 May 2014 (UTC).

For convenience, these are the ten reviewed articles. (The one reportedly without errors is in parentheses.)

• Coronary artery disease
• Lung cancer
• Major depressive disorder
• (Concussion)
• Osteoarthritis
• Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease
• Hypertension
• Diabetes mellitus
• Back pain
• Hyperlipidemia

—Wavelength (talk) 01:45, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I have emailed the corresponding author regarding major depressive disorder - we'll see what happens. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:42, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the reliability of Misplaced Pages articles, consider the following excerpt from the Verifiability policy,

"Content from a Misplaced Pages article is not considered reliable unless it is backed up by citing reliable sources. Confirm that these sources support the content, then use them directly."

Seems like this is useful advice for readers of medical articles in Misplaced Pages too, especially when they are using the information for their own or others' health. --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:37, 28 May 2014 (UTC)