Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:36, 23 May 2014

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

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Standard of conduct for arbitrators

There's little doubt that parties in arbitration cases are often users who have engaged in some type of questionable conduct, which was prompted in response to difficult situations. Given that arbs are elected/required to vote in relation to that sort of thing, is it unreasonable to expect that arbs should lead by example in their own editing, conduct, and interactions with others?

Personally, I think the on-wiki arbitration policy in relation to arbitrator conduct is a bit of a joke as it does not really address situations which are more likely to arise with arbs, or the likely outcomes required to address those situations, or why a minority of arbs ought to be sufficient to effect temporary action sometimes. Note: although it might appear this post was made after I encountered this response to a comment/criticism/suggestion I made as an uninvolved editor, I had actually been thinking about the subject generally earlier.

What are your thoughts? Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:15, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Speaking only to the general principle, with no comment of any kind at the moment on any arbitrator's specific actions, past, present, or future: I expect that arbitrators should hold themselves, and each other, to the highest standards of behavior at all times. I think the community has a right to expect and demand the same. This does not mean that we should go ballistic every time an arbitrator says something firm to someone, or takes an action that gives rise to some minor controversy.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:36, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflicts) Thanks for that, and I agree. For the avoidance of doubt for any others who might see this, I'm not seeking comment in relation to any specific arbitrator's actions and I don't plan on hanging around to go through any at the moment. But if there are any issues, I hope they are resolved (somehow, even if it is not on here). Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:13, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Yet the community seems to have no real recourse when confronted with poor behavior by Arbs or Admins except to appeal to those same people for action. Seems a bit like a self-licking ice cream cone to me. Intothatdarkness 16:48, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

We hold elections every year for ArbCom. I think we should have some ArbCom recall process as well, but designing one to not be infinite drama for limited benefit has proven to be quite difficult.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:54, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Recall in general is something that should be looked at, since the Arbs on the whole are normally Admins as well. But there's far too much OWN of policy for change to take place, I think. Intothatdarkness 16:59, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

There probably needs to be a fair amount of detailed discussion on ideas, change, and procedure, though I suppose it's also a question of where to have the discussion, how to structure the discussion, and when to have the discussion. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:16, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I think some editors see arbitrators as a powerful position but I see it as a role that involves an enormous amount of time and effort and that involves editors unhappy with your rulings taking pot-shots at you. It seems like every current arbitrator as well as previous arbitrator gets slammed for both their actions and their inaction. I can see the value, theoretically, of having a recall system but I can see it could be used by anyone who is discontent by the comments of an arbitrator. There has to be a high bar for a recall and given the low number of people who vote in elections, I'm not sure where the threshold should be set. Personally, I am impressed that as many qualified editors run in ARBCOM elections as they do as it seems like a thankless job. Liz 18:34, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

• In any good democratic or republican system there is a system of checks and balances to prevent absolute power. Where are such measures here? KonveyorBelt 17:11, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

WP:Not a democracy or a republic but rather an online encyclopedia's website generally written and largely managed by volunteers. Thus, process is adopted by those same volunteers. So, if some new Process is needed, and current process is insufficient, get a new process (see, Eg WP:VPP) or anyone of the relevant WP:Policy talk pages) and WP:Consensus. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:31, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Except that OWN of policy is quiet real, and works to prevent actual change. It's actually quite easy to block major policy change here, as anyone who's watched the process should know. It also isn't optimal that Misplaced Pages policies are scattered at multiple levels of the site's architecture, and are often buttressed by (or confused with) the various essays and general ramblings that appear to have developed into rules. "Get a new process" is easy to say, especially when it's understood that it's very difficult to accomplish. Intothatdarkness 17:44, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Of course, as anyone who has lived knows, it's terribly difficult to work with others and come to agreement sometimes. As for owning policy, that seems to be a complaint that "I don't own it". As they say, if it's not hard, it's nothing worth doing. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:59, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm the longest-serving arbitrator as of the moment, and if I've ever been close to having "absolute power," I sure as hell didn't notice it at the time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:08, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks both of you for the snark. It illustrates the point quite well. Intothatdarkness 18:11, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, it wasn't snark, it was refutation. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:15, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I would say not. It might have been a counterpoint without the "Of course, as anyone who has lived knows" and the "terribly difficult" construction that follows. Your suggestion that I somehow wish to OWN policy is likewise not in the spirit of discourse but rather a veiled accusation (or snark intended to discredit the position). At best you were defending the status quo. If policy belongs to everyone, then anyone is free to comment on it without being attacked, no? Intothatdarkness 18:25, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

It was directly responsive to "as anyone who's watched the process should know". The spirit of discourse, well allows for the presentation of a different perspective on the "own" claim. Policy is responsive to whomever comes up with an idea formulated in words that others buy into. Such policy evolution happens often. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:36, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I guess my question is, Intothatdarkness, if you say a getting a new policy is difficult and close to impossible, what other way is there to change a process? I mean, the current system of proposing policy changes might not be as efficient or fair as it could be, but I don't see an alternative.

The process of reviewing procedures involving discretionary sanctions took a year but I think the effort was worth it. The system favors people who put forth proposal changes as part of a collaborative effort (not on their own) and who are willing to put in the time it takes to see the dicussion through. Liz 18:40, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Though it may be next to impossible to "get a new process", it's barely cumbersome to "proceed with a process anew"; there's nothing inherently wrong with Arbcom's remit. Just remember:

At the end of the day

When your best is in play

Don't wonder about what's amiss

For it's already known

As the "good book" has shown

The crowd will clamor: Barabbas!

—John Cline (talk) 18:51, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

• The check on an individual arbitrator is that they can be removed by 2/3 of the committee. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy#Conduct_of_arbitrators

  The check on the committee as a whole is the election process. Given the low number of voters compared to the number of editors, it's apparently not a concern to the vast majority of editors. See also WP:The Committee. NE Ent 03:05, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Konveyor Belt is right. Despite that Misplaced Pages itself is not a democracy and doesn't therefore have to adopt any of the systems we have in democratic societies, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do so to deal with the adminstrative aspects of Misplaced Pages. I think that a key universal aspect that makes the justice system work is to have multiple layers of independence. When you don't have that, the system breaks down, not because of corrupt justices, rather because people are not naturally good at being objective. Count Iblis (talk) 11:56, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

A modest proposal

Given the above discussion, and many similar discussions, it seems fair to conclude that there is some dissatisfaction with the overall current governance of en:Misplaced Pages.

For the record,

• I don't see any reason not to have conduct codes for both admins and arbs, but the only thing I might add to it, is that they should never be paid editors.
• I'd think arb recall would be an endless time-waster, but a "lightening-strike" removal from above (the Trustees?) might be required every 50 years or so.
• NYBrad is correct that arbcom does not have unbridled power. In fact, I don't think it has any real power, beyond deciding a dozen or so contentious cases each year, and whatever power it can acquire from a general acknowledgement among the general editorship that it has done a fantastic job.
• There is no general acknowledgement of the above, in fact arbcom seems to be everybody's favorite punching bag (for whatever reason).

Liz's comment "the current system of proposing policy changes might not be as efficient or fair as it could be, but I don't see an alternative," is what I'd like to address. I think in the current system it is next to impossible to make any major change in any policy. Too many people - perhaps a majority - would like to say "please don't make any change in policies - in fact bring them back to the way they were when I first figured out what they were." Combined with a consensus system where a highly motivated group of perhaps 5% of the editors can block just about anything, and we've got a formula for "no change in policy is ever allowed" with the exception of folks who spend a tremendous amount of time nibbling around the edges of current policy resulting in a bit of confusion what the policies actually are and brownian motion around the current policies. In the fast changing technology sector, this sounds like a formula for disaster. We could become the new America Online in a year or two (did I remember their name correctly?)

Remember I said "in the current system it is next to impossible to make any major change." I say this as somebody who IMHO has helped to make a major change of policy - instituting reasonable regulation on paid editing. Yes, the board still has to make an announcement on this, but I'm 99% sure they are not going to go against the views expressed by 80% of the respondents (and likely 90% of the real editorship). One "vote" like this, and the Hoser-style wild west period of paid editing will never come back. But there was a certain amount of luck, and an impossible amount of work by many people just to have a chance at getting that forum. And i don't think that a political style voting system is what we really want or need here.

So I'll offer an alternative for Liz and others to consider - remember, this is not a vote with campaigning, political parties, and the like.

• The WMF should gather info from editors on what policy, technology, etc. improvements might be made, as well as the current contentious issues.
• They then take a limited sample random survey (not a census, not a vote) of both the editorship and the readership (anons) on these issues 4-6 times per year. Keeping the sample size limited (say to 200 for each group) would allow the multiple surveys to be taken fairly quickly without intruding much on editors' and readers' time. It would also limit the effect of campaigning and the downsides of a voting system.
• If a survey shows a policy to be way out-of-line with the editorship and readership opinions, we allow the proponents of the various sides to formulate (simple) questions with a focus on proper wording, and do the survey again in the next scheduled round.
• If the new survey show the same division between policy and the ed's and reader's opinion, we do it a third time. So from the 1st survey to the 3rd, it would take 6-9 months, and decide the general result of how a new policy should be written.
• The editorship - who would have to implement the new policy, would then be told to rewrite the policy within the bounds suggested by the surveys. Same basic RfC format we have now, but the closer would have to ignore any comments outside the bounds suggested by the surveys.

Totally fictitious example

Some editors are starting to talk about doo-dads and say that every article needs one. But they are generally reverted by editors who say doo-dads violate our deepest beliefs. The WMF picks up on the discussion and runs a quick survey on the question and find that 60% of editors favor doo-dads and 80% of the surveyed readers do as well.

Given the surprising results (and a presumed conservative policy against doo-dads), a more carefully worded survey is constructed with input from both sides. This survey confirms that 65% of editors would allow doo-dads and 90% of readers would allow them, but neither group favors requiring them.

Given a pretty clear approval over a six month period, a third survey is scheduled in 3 months. Assuming similar results, editors would be given instructions to write a policy allowing doo-dads.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 23:48, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

There has always been perpetual dissatisfaction with the governance of Misplaced Pages. This is nothing new or special. We have a good process to remove an unworthy arbitrator: the community can use WP:RFC/U or hold a similar style discussion elsewhere. If a clear majority thinks an arbitrator should resign, they will. It's happened several times in the past, and is available if needed in the future. Jehochman 23:43, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Jehochman about RfC/U being available for arbs. Having said that, although I can see some potential problems with Smallbones rough ideas as expressed above, I could see some utility in the discussions if for no other reason than to increase the appearance of transparency. Yeah, it is certainly possible that such polls could come up with something like "white guys should not be allowed to edit articles on Africa" or "only women can understand the pains of childbirth, and men should leave pages on that subject damn well enough alone or be ready to sleep on the couch for the next few years" or things like that, but such unlikely to succeed proposals, even if indicated by survey. would probably not get much real support. And it would be more or less in the spirit of wikipedia in general. John Carter (talk) 23:51, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

It would be pretty unlikely that the WMF would select those type of questions for the survey. One thing I left out is that having to use all 3 surveys would be unlikely. After the 1st or 2nd survey, editors would likely see the writing on the wall and seek a reasonable compromise. With short to-the-point questions, 6 or so could be done at one time, so there can be an "inventory" of surveys available. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 01:36, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Smallbones ArbCom has surprising power, both overt and implicit. It would be interesting to make a list. The obvious power is to decide disputes, but (off the top of my head)

• ArbCom also appoints all checkusers and the committee that audits them.
• All Arbs are automatically checkusers and I believe oversighters
• ArbCom can pass motions that sanction a user out of the blue. In at least one case this scuppered a good faith community effort to resolve a long-standing issue - just because a particular arb lost patience.
• Arbcom can redefine their own processes at will
• Arbcom are privy to comfidential information that can break users - and they have published it in the past.
• Arbs are generally powerful socially, and not one wants to cross an arb. (I did, and he took me to ArbCom - and amazingly won!)
• ArbCom also has a chilling effect. Resolving the date linking mess took years because everyone was scared they might bring down the wrath of ArbCom, despite clear community consensus.
• AbCom does not set policy, but they set tone. I had an admin cite an arb case "principle" as justifying a block just a few weeks ago.
• There is a perception that arbs stick together, generally this seems to be the case, rather than "demanding higher standards" of each other.
• Arbs are taken as authority - both by others and in some cases themselves. One recently remarked that to overturn his re-revert (contrary to BRD) I would need several "checkusers or a larger number of editors".
• Instruction creep tends to push more power to Arbs/Checkusers. See the discussion at WP:VPP where they had picked up sole authority on allegations of admin socking.
• Arbitrators usually have a lot of hats, increasing their power, both technically and socially.
• An Arb (and indeed any checkuser) can take actions which no non-checkuser is allowed to revert. Several have misused this ability.

I'm sure I have omitted powers both those clearly laid down in procedure/policy and hidden, but that I think is pretty good start.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:17, 21 May 2014 (UTC).

A few good points above. Granted, there is reasonably a kind of presupposition, I think, on the part of any arb that another currently seated arb probably knows what they're doing. This is, of course, barring any private communications of individual arbs or the mailing list of which we may not be aware. And, of course, there could be, in some cases, really damning information about someone only they are aware of. Finding some way to fairly try to give elected arbs the respect they have more or less earned by being elected and the community input about arb com decisions they think misguided would be difficult. So, in effect, we might want to try to lower the bar of arb recall while at the same time ensuring that the process doesn't get abused. That might be kinda difficult, like, oh, maybe harder than getting Bill Clinton to become an ardent Rush Limbaugh groupie. I suppose, though, some sort of independent arbcom review board, selected some damn way, might be useful. Something like an independent police review board. They might not be active very often, though, and selecting both the individuals to join it, and enough individuals to make it really functional, would be a bitch.

Regarding the poll, maybe, and this is just a maybe, having the first stage ask for a numerical rating of an issue or matter of concern, like deletion, sanctions, or whatever, with 1 being OK, 10 being so bad to need immediate attention, might work, particularly if they are also given a chance to provide details of their concerns. The information could then be released to not only allow for further poll rounds, and informating editors/readers of the results, but also allow for others to maybe know what seems to need work, and motivate them to try to find some way to deal with those concerns? John Carter (talk) 17:42, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Smallbones, I like the proposal you've written. But

• a) I'm not sure that this is a responsibility that WMF wants to take on as they tend to work Foundation-oriented projects and
• b) policies vary from Misplaced Pages project to Misplaced Pages project. I don't just mean the hundreds of different language Wikipedias but also projects like Wikiversity, Wikinews, Wikisource, Wiktionary, Wikidata, etc. In just one example, the role of admins varies on different Misplaced Pages projects quite a lot, from being powerful to, basically, being janitors, carrying out necessary, routine tasks. Editors who hold this role aren't even called "admins" on every project. This diversity of projects and decentralized nature of the entirety of Misplaced Pages means that, beyond WP:FIVEPILLARS, policies created and followed are not a "one size fits all". WMF has made some system-wide changes but they seem to be of a technical nature, not involving governance.

But I don't think your proposal should be dismissed because I could be wrong, I haven't studied WMF as an organization. It would be useful if there was some "higher authority" one could appeal to to settle disputes or enact policy changes but Misplaced Pages has a very loosely structured and project-specific hierarchy. I just don't think WMF would choose to interfere unless a dispute had legal or financial implications that could impact WMF as a whole. I do think that policies can be changed at the project-level, it just takes leadership and a great deal of time and effort. Liz 13:36, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Personally I think a revised standards of conduct is a very good idea and very appropriate not only for Arbitrators but for everyone else as well. Over the last week or two alone we have seen troubling displays of unprofessionalism from all levels of Wikipediadom from editors all the way up the Arbcom through big Jim himself. Unfortunately I have my doubts that anything would be enforced since it is in many cases the enforcers that are displaying atrocious acts and policy violations. Even committing what was once considered a cardinal sin here on Wiki and outing editors and contacting their employers. Gone are the days of cordial and professional editing and I think a new standard of conduct, if anyone actually had the intention of enforcing it, would be a terrific idea and a welcome improvement to the increasingly toxic editing environment here on the project. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 14:44, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

"Gone are the days of cordial and professional editing..." Errr, what days were these? Misplaced Pages has always had its content generated by enthusiastic amateurs. With guidelines such as WP:BLP and WP:MEDRS we are actually increasing the quality level of edits from the "old days". --NeilN 15:03, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, NeilN. I've gone into ARBCOM and AN/I archives, read over a lot of disputes, and they make today's controversies seem like a tea party. Some of the conversations look like a free-for-all. There might have been more editor freedom and less bureaucracy ten years ago but there were also a lot more wild cards, more extremes of behavior, less socialization into Misplaced Pages editing norms. As Misplaced Pages becomes more institutionalized, we need to look out for ossification and realize that old policies need fresh eyes and that it is not possible to introduce radical changes (um, unless they are technological changes suddenly mandated for use). Organizational growth goes through stages and Misplaced Pages is simply at a different stage than it was 13 years ago, 8 years ago or 4 years ago. Different stages, different strengths and different needs and concerns. My two cents. Liz 22:27, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

My perception is that there was a period when "being an admin was no big deal" and part of the reason was that admins were prepared to reverse each other, disagreement was voiced clearly and consensus reached, people moved on. Then there was a period where things became "more serious", reversing blocks was taken personally and cited as wheel warring, AN/I became a vicious place as a rule, not as an exception. Now AN/I is fairly civilised, but not always. The big difference is the loss of many of the old hands who a) Understood the "open" movement, and b) could string a few coherent thoughts together, c) were not judgemental but pragmatic. The horrendous instruction creep really doesn't help. In 2012 I analysed the content of Misplaced Pages, both by pages and bytes, less than 40% is actual articles. Since then a number of large contributors to article space have had their contributions curtailed, while a lot of the work on the non-project parts appears to be focussed on making life as difficult as possible for contributors. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:20, 23 May 2014 (UTC).

Article creation on Igor Janev is limited only to admin. accounts!?

MediaWiki:Anoneditwarning

Hello, is there a policy shift towards banning IP editing? This change seems to indicate that IP editors should be discouraged from editing. Thereby leading to a loss of IP-editors. -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 04:57, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

This has been around for a long time, and is not intended to discourage IP editing. It is a worthwhile warning, because all IP edits have their addresses recorded in the edit history. A WHOIS search can be used to trace the likely source of the edit. Also, even edits from many years back will have their IP addresses recorded in the edit history of an article, whereas an ISP's records may go back only one or two years. Adding the stop hand beefs up the warning, but the principle behind it is the same as before.--♦IanMacM♦ 05:25, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

The use of File:Stop hand nuvola.svg is new -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 07:00, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

The newest replacement File:Ambox warning pn.svg is much more indicatory instead of exclusionary. -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 07:03, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Just a note that Risker has stated their reasoning for the change over at the technical village pump, and that another discussion was also started on the template's talk page. Hopefully we can keep this topic centralized in once location. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 05:27, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, SuperHamster. I'm perfectly happy to change out the stop hand and use a different image, but it's really important that it (a) be big enough to be eye-catching and (b) not fade into the background colour. The more frequently seen Ambox warning (the "!" in a yellow-orange triangle) fades into the orange-yellow background of the warning, so perhaps changing the background colour may be useful, even if it is non-standard. The previous version of the Anon edit warning was so small that it was easily missed when a new editor got her first eyeful of a sea of wikitext, especially as the "warning symbol" was a tiny key instead of anything that is usually associated with a warning. We have had problems with new users being shocked and distressed to find that their IP was publicly displayed because they'd missed the previous warning, and while many oversighters have quietly suppressed the IP information as an IAR action, technically it's not an approved use of suppression, and has been reverted on some occasions, thus compounding the new editor's distress. I know there are many editors who consciously choose to edit knowing that their IP address will be entered into the public logs (I'm pretty hesitant to call that anonymous editing, especially with the advent of IPv6 which is often extremely specific), and the warning has never really been directed at them. It's directed at those new editors who don't realise that their IP address is their "username" for the purpose of editing, and at registered users who are (usually unintentionally) logged out. Risker (talk) 05:42, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Humorous aside: I very nearly posted the above while logged out - for some reason, Misplaced Pages has been logging me out unpredictably quite often lately - but the warning caught my eye. Well, that, and the fact that I was on Vector (instead of my usual Monobook) so the sidebar looked weird. Risker (talk) 05:46, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I wonder if it would be useful to add "of your choice" after "username". Arthur goes shopping (talk) 06:35, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

The new warning is much better (a beep would be good as well). Experimenting, I notice also you get a "Consider opening an account" invite when you attempt to edit IP. I don't know if that's new, or how long it lasts, but that strikes me as worthwhile (a "Don't show me again" checkbox if it is indeed longlasting?) Coat of Many Colours (talk) 06:10, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I think that is part of the the current anonymous editor recruiting experiment. It's a good idea too. Risker (talk) 06:18, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

It's a fine line between encouraging voter registration and making "producing one's papers" compulsory. I many ways I wish I had chosen a pseudonymous account, and indeed for around a year (2012-2013) I did revert to IP editing, though I kept no records. The real crux is how we treat one another, and the original concept of functional equality does something to promote equal treatment. We have degenerated to a ladder of rights, and with it our own caste system. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:08, 23 May 2014 (UTC).

Inclusive growth relative to employment growth per tax incidence

Hi Jimbo,

Would you please respond at Talk:Tax policy and economic inequality in the United States#Top marginal rate versus job growth graph again?

For reference please see . This is particularly important because your pre-Misplaced Pages activities may be contributing to systemic bias starkly opposed to WP:SECONDARY economics evaluations of peer reviewed academic journals as per this discussion.

Thank you. Best regards, EllenCT (talk) 10:43, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

As far as I can tell my views are not controversial in this matter, and reflect the ongoing consensus of the editors in this area. I think rather than fighting about this one clearly misleading and oversimplified graph, your time might be better spent documenting in some detail the specific "evaluations of peer reviewed academic journals".

Note well that my position is purely editorial here: I take no position at all on the underlying question of the relation between income inequality and tax rates on the one hand, and growth/prosperity on the other hand. The point is that the reader deserves a clear and appropriate explanation of the current state of research into that question, and not a cartoonish oversimplification of the question.

And finally, my views do not determine what belongs in Misplaced Pages, so it isn't me you have to convince.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:57, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

You are quite close to economic consensus on this. The examples chosen are all ones where specific external factors (that is, other than "income inequality" are rather easily noted. The WP article on Cameroon states An economic crisis took effect in the mid-1980s to late 1990s as a result of international economic conditions, drought, falling petroleum prices, and years of corruption, mismanagement, and cronyism which gives a couple or more other factors other than "income inequality" for the economic problems at that time. The reader is invited to guess why Chile had instability in the early 1970s, and it has nothing to do with "income inequality." Jordan ditto - I suggest the authors of the "correlation" failed to note major external events. Brazil is interesting -- as the military left it with hyperinflation, which means that "income inequality" was among the least of its problems. Chart 4 manages to leave out "major regime change", "hyperinflation", "war" and "major drought" as factors at all, yet any economist would note those as quite substantial factors indeed. Collect (talk) 16:24, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo in the news - fighting the good fight

"When asked about this, Wales simply smiled and said, "Good luck coming after us."

Well said, Mr. Wales. Well said.

http://www.ibtimes.com/eu-google-ruling-wikipedias-jimmy-wales-ridicules-right-be-forgotten-1584247Smatprt (talk) 17:16, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Ironic? Sounded to me very much like an American telling the rest of the world how it should be run (i.e. like America). Coat of Many Colours (talk) 18:20, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

What's more ironic is the amount of ""courtesy deletes" in his logs. -- John Reaves 18:34, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

These articles have relevant information.

• Right to be forgotten
• Do Not Track legislation
• Google Spain v AEPD and Mario Costeja González

—Wavelength (talk) 18:29, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo was born in the USA, where Google Spain v AEPD and Mario Costeja González would go straight in the bin on First Amendment grounds. As with previous rulings by European courts on privacy, the basic principle of Google Spain v AEPD and Mario Costeja González is well meaning but poorly thought out. A home repossession in 1998 based on a debt that has since been paid off isn't the most important thing to know about a person in a Google search. However, trying to make search engines responsible in this area is like trying to empty the proverbial lake with a thimble.--♦IanMacM♦ 18:33, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Ian. I'm editing in Europe. My edit was just a balancing effort, reflecting the internationalism of Misplaced Pages. I contributed to an earlier debate here, correcting basic misconceptions about this ruling, for example here. I might contribute to Google Spain v AEPD and Mario Costeja González once it's published. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 18:52, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Addendum: erm ... why was my 14:59, 16 May 2014‎ edit on the "Right to be forgotten" revdeleted! Can I have it back, please? I haven't the faintest idea what is was now, but I'm quite sure it wasn't offensive or needed oversight, and I rather object to the implication that it was. I demand the right to be remembered ... :) Coat of Many Colours (talk)

This was the edit: "@ianmacm: I don't think there's an issue for BLPs as long as they're lawfully published. Articles 15 and 16 of the judgment dealing with the facts of the case make it clear that the newspaper report involved was lawful. I'm not aware that any newspaper has expressed unease about protecting their content, and I don't see why Misplaced Pages should be any the different. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 14:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)" Why revdeleted? Coat of Many Colours (talk) 19:30, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

No revision deletion in the page history or any other log. There seems to be a recurring problem with people's edits getting overwritten as some sort of weird variation of edit conflict, though. You might want to walk through the last dozen or so edits in the page history to see if that's the case. Risker (talk) 20:11, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Risker. I see it's there in the page revision, although revdeleted in the page history. Some weird hitch I expect. I was just curious. Thanks for your trouble. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 21:36, 23 May 2014 (UTC)