| Revision as of 01:33, 25 July 2013 editFrungi (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users4,987 edits →Metropolitan/micropolitan areas and the like: Citing the source of that source, and repeating another thing that’s been said before← Previous edit | Revision as of 18:31, 28 July 2013 edit undoMurry1975 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users21,042 edits →Bibliography and place-names: COI editNext edit → | ||
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| ::Since I was reverted, the phrase ''Misplaced Pages editor'' does not belong in there. It implies that translations by our editors are inferior to other forms of translation. Either we want to use translations in this case or we prefer not too. The source is not the issue and should not be raised. ] (]) 19:30, 13 July 2013 (UTC) | ::Since I was reverted, the phrase ''Misplaced Pages editor'' does not belong in there. It implies that translations by our editors are inferior to other forms of translation. Either we want to use translations in this case or we prefer not too. The source is not the issue and should not be raised. ] (]) 19:30, 13 July 2013 (UTC) | ||
| :::I see your point. My view is that while translation is not really original research, in the context of changing the citation form that appears in a bibliography, it is bad practice to change '''Cathair na Mart''' to '''Westport''' in particular if the latter term does not appear in the book. Piping here is the appropriate place for the translation activity of an editor; but the editor should not be taking it upon himself or herself to essentially ''change'' the bibliographic information itself. -- ]·] 00:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC) | :::I see your point. My view is that while translation is not really original research, in the context of changing the citation form that appears in a bibliography, it is bad practice to change '''Cathair na Mart''' to '''Westport''' in particular if the latter term does not appear in the book. Piping here is the appropriate place for the translation activity of an editor; but the editor should not be taking it upon himself or herself to essentially ''change'' the bibliographic information itself. -- ]·] 00:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC) | ||
| ::::Evertype has a ] on this subject as his printing company use this style themselves. Oppose making exceptions to conform to outside manual of style. I have removed the BOLD entry, inserted in accordance with ], removed inaccordance with this and to allow further discussion here. ] (]) 18:31, 28 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == NYC neighborhoods == | == NYC neighborhoods == | ||
Revision as of 18:31, 28 July 2013
Archive to 1 Dec 2006 • Archive to Nov 2008 • Naming conventions (settlements) (Decision to use the AP Stylebook for major US cities (October 2008)) • Naming conventions (places)
ShortcutBibliography and place-names
Recently some difficulty has come up regarding the use of place-names in bibliographical listings. At Translations of Through the Looking-Glass, some editors, citing the Naming Conventions on geographic names, have changed a bibliographic citation from ] to ]. Now I agree with the usual MoS naming convention: articles and general citations about Westport should be listed under that name and not under Cathair na Mart. But in a bibliography, the correct thing to do is to give the publication place as it is given in the book itself. Why? Because that is how it will be catalogued by libraries, in particular OCLC, the Library of Congress, and the British Library. In those editions of Looking-Glass the name "Westport" doesn't even occur. The point of a bibliographical entry is to help a person identify and find a book, and to do so, the information as presented in the book should have priority over a secondary translation by a Misplaced Pages editor. I propose that the MoS adopt a rule that in bibliographies, the place-name be given as it appears in the book (subject to script transliteration) and that it be pipe-linked to the article whose name should be the common name in English. -- Evertype·✆ 11:37, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
- I've written the text of this policy in the article. I hope the policy will be accepted, or modified with discussion and consensus. -- Evertype·✆ 12:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- Since I was reverted, the phrase Misplaced Pages editor does not belong in there. It implies that translations by our editors are inferior to other forms of translation. Either we want to use translations in this case or we prefer not too. The source is not the issue and should not be raised. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:30, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
- I see your point. My view is that while translation is not really original research, in the context of changing the citation form that appears in a bibliography, it is bad practice to change Cathair na Mart to Westport in particular if the latter term does not appear in the book. Piping here is the appropriate place for the translation activity of an editor; but the editor should not be taking it upon himself or herself to essentially change the bibliographic information itself. -- Evertype·✆ 00:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- Evertype has a WP:COI on this subject as his printing company use this style themselves. Oppose making exceptions to conform to outside manual of style. I have removed the BOLD entry, inserted in accordance with WP:BRD, removed inaccordance with this and to allow further discussion here. Murry1975 (talk) 18:31, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
- I see your point. My view is that while translation is not really original research, in the context of changing the citation form that appears in a bibliography, it is bad practice to change Cathair na Mart to Westport in particular if the latter term does not appear in the book. Piping here is the appropriate place for the translation activity of an editor; but the editor should not be taking it upon himself or herself to essentially change the bibliographic information itself. -- Evertype·✆ 00:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- Since I was reverted, the phrase Misplaced Pages editor does not belong in there. It implies that translations by our editors are inferior to other forms of translation. Either we want to use translations in this case or we prefer not too. The source is not the issue and should not be raised. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:30, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
NYC neighborhoods
Can anyone explain the passage under USPLACE about NYC neighborhoods being named "Neighborhood, Borough"? Is that universal, or only when disambiguation is needed (the text is unclear)? I ask because my move request on Talk:Tribeca is not garnering any support despite the existence of this guidance. Powers 15:42, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- A look at Category:Neighborhoods in Manhattan suggests that the use of ", Borough" is not mandatory. That surprised me; like you, I thought it was. MelanieN (talk) 15:16, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm, presumably there was some discussion that led to the inclusion of that clause. I wonder how to find it. =) Powers 14:48, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- I found this section, with this entry at the end: "I added text to the US section to reflect the neighborhood naming standard used for New York City, which has been neighborhood, borough for quite some time, with "borough" being used as a qualifier in almost all cases. Alansohn (talk) 04:21, 9 November 2010 (UTC)" Here's the diff. So no explicit discussion at the time it was added.
Later on, Vegaswikian recalled a borough discussion in the 2006-07 timeframe, but couldn't recall where: see this discussion. Haven't been able to find that. Dohn joe (talk) 18:18, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- I found this section, with this entry at the end: "I added text to the US section to reflect the neighborhood naming standard used for New York City, which has been neighborhood, borough for quite some time, with "borough" being used as a qualifier in almost all cases. Alansohn (talk) 04:21, 9 November 2010 (UTC)" Here's the diff. So no explicit discussion at the time it was added.
- Hmm, presumably there was some discussion that led to the inclusion of that clause. I wonder how to find it. =) Powers 14:48, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
"America"
I could have sworn there was guidance on usage of this term somewhere, but have not had much luck turning it up. While the average citizen of the U.S. will treat it as the common name for that country, others will use it collectively for the North and South American continents. No doubt there is an impact from wp:ENGVAR, but it seems an obvious thing to spell out. Am I looking in the wrong place? LeadSongDog come howl! 19:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- I once looked for guidance, and could not find anything other than the DAB page at America. There should be something here. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 20:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
- I’ve always understood “America” to mean the United States thereof, and “the Americas” to mean the two continents. Does anyone refer to the continents in English as simply “America”? —Frungi (talk) 03:31, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- There is a major discussion currently going on at Talk:America#Requested move on this very subject, where some are saying "America" should redirect to "United States" as primary meaning, and others are claiming that they do in fact say "America" when they mean the North and South American continents. Go figure. --MelanieN (talk) 04:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- Ah, then I guess I take it back. Learn something new every day. Of course, my experience is biased by living in the US.—Frungi (talk) 04:53, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- There is a major discussion currently going on at Talk:America#Requested move on this very subject, where some are saying "America" should redirect to "United States" as primary meaning, and others are claiming that they do in fact say "America" when they mean the North and South American continents. Go figure. --MelanieN (talk) 04:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- I’ve always understood “America” to mean the United States thereof, and “the Americas” to mean the two continents. Does anyone refer to the continents in English as simply “America”? —Frungi (talk) 03:31, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
Metropolitan/micropolitan areas and the like
Shouldn’t this guideline address how to title articles about areas named after a central city? For example:
- Columbus, Ohio, metropolitan area
- Columbus, OH metropolitan area
- Columbus metropolitan area, Ohio
- Columbus metropolitan area (Ohio)
- Columbus (Ohio) metropolitan area
Which should be used? This page provides no guidance for such titles, and many current titles omit the second appositional comma (Columbus, Ohio metropolitan area—which could be read to mean the Columbus which is inside the “Ohio metropolitan area”). Is this addressed elsewhere? If not, I think we need this for consistency’s sake. —Frungi (talk) 06:24, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
- None of the above. It is Columbus, Ohio metropolitan area. It is written that way because it is the Ohio metropolitan area which contains Columbus. It is too much detail to put this into the guideline. Apteva (talk) 06:48, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
- I disagree with your interpretation, but regardless, I should think a single short sentence under WP:USPLACE would suffice: mesomething like, “Articles about an area of a state should be titled ].” How is that too much detail?
- On the semantics: In a web search for this particular subject, I find multiple formats, including ones I gave as examples and simply an unqualified “Columbus metro area”. So I maintain that it’s “(Columbus (Ohio)) metropolitan area”—the metropolitan area surrounding and named for Columbus in Ohio. But if it was referring to an “Ohio metropolitan area” containing Columbus, a comma wouldn’t even be appropriate at all. I would give counter-examples, but at the moment I can’t even think of anything else that’s named after something it contains other than “jelly donut” (not “jelly, donut”). I can think of things named for their leaders (which is arguably the case here), such as “the Obama administration” or “the Ming Dynasty”, but that’s really not the same thing as what you assert. —Frungi (talk) 07:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
- There was a recent RFC which concluded that generally, articles on metropolitan areas don't have to include the state name unless disambiguation is necessary. I'd welcome a follow-up RFC asking how titles which do include the state name should be formatted, but I don't have the energy to start it myself. For what it's worth, I prefer the name of the area followed by the disambiguator ("Columbus metropolitan area, Ohio"). DoctorKubla (talk) 09:48, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
As concluded at the recent RFC, the title of this particular metropolitan area should be Columbus metropolitan area, as it currently is - because there is no other Columbus Metropolitan Area. For those few articles that need disambiguation (because there are metropolitan areas for more than one city of that name), I prefer the style Portland, Maine metropolitan area (no comma) as the most natural format - in other words I agree with Apteva.--MelanieN (talk) 16:15, 20 July 2013 (UTC)- But… it's not. That's a DAB page. Anyway, I think matching appositional commas are the more natural format, since that's how the language treats states. But if it's such a point of contention, how about, e.g., "Portland metropolitan area (Maine)"? Has this format been discussed? —Frungi (talk) 21:28, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
- I stand corrected about Columbus; thanks for the correction. And I have changed my mind about the second comma; it is needed. Apteva has demonstrated that the format "Portland, Maine metropolitan area" can be misread as meaning it is part of something called the "Maine metropolitan area". The second comma is essential to prevent this misunderstanding. So I now prefer Portland, Maine, metropolitan area, with a redirect from Portland, Maine metropolitan area. --MelanieN (talk) 13:44, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I'm going to have to vehemently disagree with the well-intentioned editors here about the need for a second comma after the state in such names. There's a relevant discussion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Do_article_titles_that_include_proper_names_need_to_follow_standard_grammatical_rules.3F
- Basically, normally I wouldn't say this about hardly anything on Misplaced Pages, but I am willing to go to the mat on it being wrong to omit the second comma. It creates confusing and incorrect titles like Rochester, New York metropolitan area – which clearly suggests that Rochester is within the "New York metropolitan area" which is just wrong! It's an article about the metropolitan area in Rochester, New York, not an article about the New York metropolitan area of Rochester! English requires a second comma after parenthetical information like state names. I know tha some people don't like to include the state name, but if it is going to be included it really must have a comma. I implore all participants to think this through and separate the question of including the state from including a comma after the state when a state is necessary. I think adding a sentence about this to the main page would be helpful in clearing this up. AgnosticAphid talk 16:28, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree. Omitting the matching comma is a grammatical error. On the other hand, at least one guide says this formal requirement is changing in practice; the error is increasingly tolerated, making it not an error for some. But in WP, in writing for the widest possible audience, we strive to use style in support of clarity. There's no reason to move away from the formally correct punctuation that most clearly helps the reader to the right parse of the phrase. Dicklyon (talk) 16:39, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
- By the way, Apteva would be correct in saying to omit the comma if he were correct that "it is the Ohio metropolitan area which contains Columbus". But it's not. As the article says, "The Columbus Metropolitan Area is the metropolitan area centered on the American city of Columbus, Ohio." So he's wrong; or she's wrong; either way, it's wrong. Dicklyon (talk) 16:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I think the second comma is awkward; it might be needed in a sentence, but this is not a sentence. However I am not going to go to the mat over it and would accept either Portland, Maine metropolitan area or Portland, Maine, metropolitan area. Whichever one is used, the other should be a redirect. --MelanieN (talk) 17:00, 20 July 2013 (UTC)- Well, the evidence shows that the lack of comma has misled at least one semi-intelligent reader into the wrong interpretation of what the title means. Is there a reason not to use the more clearly correct punctuation? I suppose the alternative explanation is also supportable (that the reader in question is less than semi-intelligent). Dicklyon (talk) 19:40, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
- Not to say that the argument's been made, but the most compelling reason I can think of is IDONTLIKEIT. And when that's the most compelling reason… —Frungi (talk) 21:35, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
- Well, the evidence shows that the lack of comma has misled at least one semi-intelligent reader into the wrong interpretation of what the title means. Is there a reason not to use the more clearly correct punctuation? I suppose the alternative explanation is also supportable (that the reader in question is less than semi-intelligent). Dicklyon (talk) 19:40, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
In case this is unfamiliar, it might be helpful to note WP:COMMA:
In geographical references that include multiple levels of subordinate divisions (e.g., city, state/province, country), a comma separates each element and follows the last element (except at the end of a sentence). Dates in month–day–year format also require a comma after the day and after the year (except at the end of a sentence). In both cases, the last element is treated as parenthetic.
Incorrect: On November 24, 1971 Cooper hijacked a Boeing 727 aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon and was destined for Seattle, Washington.
Correct: On November 24, 1971, Cooper hijacked a Boeing 727 aircraft that had taken off from Portland, Oregon, and was destined for Seattle, Washington.
—sroc 💬 02:19, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
- The reason for omitting the second comma is a simple matter of grammar. The metro/micro areas are not within the city named, they are within the state named, so we use Rochester, New York metropolitan area, instead of Rochester, New York, metropolitan area, which would be correct if the metropolitan area was contained within Rochester, but none of these are (and if they are, they should have a second comma). So the unit that we are putting commas around is , not , , . Apteva (talk) 07:52, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that's how it works. The term "metropolitan area" is modified by the name of the city. We're not talking about a city in the state's metropolitan area. We're talking about the metropolitan area defined by the city. It's the Rochester metropolitan area (in the state of New York). When the name of the state is inserted, it functions as an appositive. But if you insist that you're correct, then please cite another case where commas are used as you describe, because I don't think English works that way. Also, please see my earlier reply to you at the top of this section. —Frungi (talk) 09:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with you, Frungi. And Apteva, that's not correct. If this is how you are interpreting it (and your reading is definitely logical), then the second comma is needed. There is no such thing as a "New York metropolitan area" or an "Ohio metropolitian area". There is the metropolitan area centered on Rochester, New York - or on Columbus, Ohio. You have just inadvertently convinced me that the second comma is needed after all. --MelanieN (talk) 13:39, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- Further, please note that many metro areas cross state lines. Thus, for example, the metro area that is named for Cincinnati, Ohio, is not an Ohio metropolitan area, nor is it a metropolitan area "in" Ohio. --Orlady (talk) 14:52, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- P.S. A humorous aside, with apologies: A reminder that commas save lives. --MelanieN (talk) 13:50, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with you, Frungi. And Apteva, that's not correct. If this is how you are interpreting it (and your reading is definitely logical), then the second comma is needed. There is no such thing as a "New York metropolitan area" or an "Ohio metropolitian area". There is the metropolitan area centered on Rochester, New York - or on Columbus, Ohio. You have just inadvertently convinced me that the second comma is needed after all. --MelanieN (talk) 13:39, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- My understanding, by examples:
- He lives in the Rochester metropolitan area, which is within New York state.
- He lives in the Rochester metropolitan area in a small apartment.
- He lives in the metropolitan area of Rochester, New York, in a small apartment.
- He lives in a Rochester, New York, apartment.
- Not He lives in a Rochester, New York apartment.
- Because this is clunky, I would re-phrase as He lives in an apartment in Rochester, New York.
- He lives in the Rochester, New York, metropolitan area.
- Not He lives in the Rochester, New York metropolitan area.
- I would prefer to re-phrase this, too, like the first example.
- I don't understand why it would be otherwise, but am keen to learn. —sroc 💬 11:02, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- That would be correct if the metropolitan area in question was contained within Rochester, which it is not. Someone living in Savannah, New York, in Wayne County, is also within that same metropolitan area, and the only thing that is in common with someone living in Rochester, which is in Monroe County, is that it is in New York. It is not correct to say that they live in the Rochester, New York, metropolitan area, in a big house with a red door, because they do not live in Rochester, New York, and do not even live in the same county as Rochester. It is correct to say that they live in the Rochester, New York metropolitan area, in a big house with a red door. In another thread someone pointed to more detailed rules on commas that show where the second comma is omitted, which includes this case. We can not separate New York from metropolitan area any more than we can separate metropolitan and area with a comma. The four words form a single clause. It is very dangerous for us to try to explain or teach grammar or good writing in the MOS, and all of that advice belongs in our articles and in essays. Often our articles provide better information on a subject than our MOS does, because we have roughly 1000 times as many readers as editors, meaning that 1000 times as many people read and use the article on the subject than do the MOS. Apteva (talk) 19:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- @Apteva, that's why it is called an AREA. "Area" automatically implies more than just the city limits; if we didn't mean to include a larger area, we would just say the city. If someone lives in the "Rochester statistical area," that does not imply they live in Rochester; it means they live in the Rochester area - an area which is named for its largest city, Rochester, but includes surrounding cities as part of the metropolitan area. Just as we say "the Los Angeles area" which includes cities other than Los Angeles, or "the Boston area" specifically to include a larger area than just Boston. The thing which defines the area is the city around which it centers - not the state in which it lies. It's just that if there is more than one "Rochester statistical area," then we have to add the state name to disambiguate which Rochester we are talking about. The phrase "Ohio metropolitan area" (I'm using Ohio as an example rather than New York because there really is a "New York (city) metropolitan area") is NOT a single clause. In fact this "clause" makes no sense, as a phrase or as a concept, and it is not used by any source anywhere. Your argument to omit the comma because you want this to actually mean it is part of an "Ohio metropolitan area" is way out in left field and not supported by any reliable source. Certainly not by the federal government, which defines these metropolitan statistical areas and names them (usually) after the largest city contained within them. --MelanieN (talk) 19:57, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- The word area does not define the extent of the area in question. The words "New York metropolitan" only say where the area is located. Ohio is a better example, because of the confusion between the city and state. Where the state is not needed, we do not place a comma between the city and the words metropolitan area, we say Cincinnati metropolitan area, we do not say Cincinnati, metropolitan area. Why would we include a comma just because we include the state? Doing so would pair the state with the city, which is not correct, as the state is not paired with the city, but with the words metropolitan area, which is why we have the Lima, Ohio metropolitan area, Columbus, Ohio metropolitan area, and Wheeling, West Virginia metropolitan area. Were those editors wrong in choosing those names? Why would we have so many like that if not for it being correct? If we put it at Lima, Ohio, metropolitan area, someone would have pointed out the error and suggested moving it to Lima, Ohio metropolitan area. These sentences, in Lima, Ohio, "As of the 2010 census, the city had a population of 38,771. It is the principal city of and is included in the Lima, Ohio Metropolitan Statistical Area, which is included in the Lima-Van Wert–Wapakoneta, Ohio Combined Statistical Area. Lima was founded in 1831." are not missing two commas. Nor does the US federal government place commas there, instead referring to "Lima, OH Metropolitan Statistical Area", "Mansfield, OH Metropolitan Statistical Area". Are they wrong, too? Apteva (talk) 20:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I disagree that the omission of the comma is because the writers MEANT to pair the state with the metropolitan area; it is more likely that they simply followed the increasing trend, noted above and often followed but considered sloppy by purists, of omitting the second comma in even when the state is meant to modify the city. We do not say "Cincinnati, metropolitan area" because there is no parenthetical modifier to Cincinnati. If we insert the state name we put it between TWO commas to make it clear that "Ohio" is parenthetical, specifically NOT part of "metropolitan area", just modifying Cincinnati. To follow up on the example above, if someone writes (erroneously according to the strict grammarians) "He lived in a Columbus, Ohio apartment", is Ohio really meant to modify "apartment"? What is an "Ohio apartment" and what makes it a single clause? Isn't "Ohio" rather meant to modify "Columbus", as in "Columbus, Ohio", and so shouldn't the sentence really read "He lived in a Columbus, Ohio, apartment"? I'm sorry, Apteva, but I really don't see where you are coming from here. It seems so clear that the metropolitan area referred to is that of "Columbus, Ohio" and the only question is how to make it clear that we are talking about the metropolitan area around Columbus, Ohio, rather than that of Columbus, Georgia, or Columbus, Mississippi. This whole concept of an "Ohio metropolitan area" is your invention and makes no sense at all to me. And the whole point of this discussion is to say that expressions like "Lima, Ohio metropolitan area" really should be changed to "Lima, Ohio, metropolitan area" to avoid exactly this kind of confusion. (BTW if there really is such a thing as an Ohio metropolitan area, why is Ohio omitted from Cincinnati? Why isn't every metro article titled "Cincinnati, Ohio metropolitan area"?) --MelanieN (talk) 21:17, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- Our choices are we can follow the convention used on this isolated site, or the choice used by the federal government. I recommend we follow the choice used by the federal government. A web search reveals almost no exceptions. There are two reasons that Ohio is not included in the Cincinnati metropolitan area, one, because it is not needed, but more importantly because Cincinnati is in the AP Stylebook as not needing the state. The 2013 AP Stylebook is now in print and needs to be checked against the list at WP:USPLACE for any changes. Apteva (talk) 21:31, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- But the state WOULD be needed, wouldn't it, if these cities were part of an "Ohio metropolitan area" as you claim? Why do we have Akron metropolitan area and Dayton metropolitan area (which incidentally DO need the state added to the title of the article, per the AP stylebook, but that's a side issue)? Aren't Akron and Dayton part of this supposed "Ohio metropolitan area", and if they are not, why is Columbus? Sorry; the bottom line is that you really destroyed your argument by bringing up these other cities that do not include "Ohio". If "Ohio metropolitan area" is the actual entity, then every metropolitan area in the state should include it. These articles should have been titled Akron, Ohio metropolitan area and Dayton, Ohio metropolitan area. The fact that they are not so titled proves that "Ohio" is merely a disambiguator (requiring parenthetical commas), and not an essential part of the name of metropolitan areas in Ohio. --MelanieN (talk) 21:56, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- No changes in the new AP Stylebook. Anyone wishing a second comma can take it up with the US census bureau. Until their usage changes, I recommend doing what everyone else does; omit the second comma. Apteva (talk) 22:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- Now you're talking about disambiguation - a separate issue. Could you please address the issue of why "Ohio metropolitan area" is not included in the names all metropolitan areas in Ohio - if as you say it is a single clause?
- No changes in the new AP Stylebook. Anyone wishing a second comma can take it up with the US census bureau. Until their usage changes, I recommend doing what everyone else does; omit the second comma. Apteva (talk) 22:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- But the state WOULD be needed, wouldn't it, if these cities were part of an "Ohio metropolitan area" as you claim? Why do we have Akron metropolitan area and Dayton metropolitan area (which incidentally DO need the state added to the title of the article, per the AP stylebook, but that's a side issue)? Aren't Akron and Dayton part of this supposed "Ohio metropolitan area", and if they are not, why is Columbus? Sorry; the bottom line is that you really destroyed your argument by bringing up these other cities that do not include "Ohio". If "Ohio metropolitan area" is the actual entity, then every metropolitan area in the state should include it. These articles should have been titled Akron, Ohio metropolitan area and Dayton, Ohio metropolitan area. The fact that they are not so titled proves that "Ohio" is merely a disambiguator (requiring parenthetical commas), and not an essential part of the name of metropolitan areas in Ohio. --MelanieN (talk) 21:56, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- Our choices are we can follow the convention used on this isolated site, or the choice used by the federal government. I recommend we follow the choice used by the federal government. A web search reveals almost no exceptions. There are two reasons that Ohio is not included in the Cincinnati metropolitan area, one, because it is not needed, but more importantly because Cincinnati is in the AP Stylebook as not needing the state. The 2013 AP Stylebook is now in print and needs to be checked against the list at WP:USPLACE for any changes. Apteva (talk) 21:31, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I disagree that the omission of the comma is because the writers MEANT to pair the state with the metropolitan area; it is more likely that they simply followed the increasing trend, noted above and often followed but considered sloppy by purists, of omitting the second comma in even when the state is meant to modify the city. We do not say "Cincinnati, metropolitan area" because there is no parenthetical modifier to Cincinnati. If we insert the state name we put it between TWO commas to make it clear that "Ohio" is parenthetical, specifically NOT part of "metropolitan area", just modifying Cincinnati. To follow up on the example above, if someone writes (erroneously according to the strict grammarians) "He lived in a Columbus, Ohio apartment", is Ohio really meant to modify "apartment"? What is an "Ohio apartment" and what makes it a single clause? Isn't "Ohio" rather meant to modify "Columbus", as in "Columbus, Ohio", and so shouldn't the sentence really read "He lived in a Columbus, Ohio, apartment"? I'm sorry, Apteva, but I really don't see where you are coming from here. It seems so clear that the metropolitan area referred to is that of "Columbus, Ohio" and the only question is how to make it clear that we are talking about the metropolitan area around Columbus, Ohio, rather than that of Columbus, Georgia, or Columbus, Mississippi. This whole concept of an "Ohio metropolitan area" is your invention and makes no sense at all to me. And the whole point of this discussion is to say that expressions like "Lima, Ohio metropolitan area" really should be changed to "Lima, Ohio, metropolitan area" to avoid exactly this kind of confusion. (BTW if there really is such a thing as an Ohio metropolitan area, why is Ohio omitted from Cincinnati? Why isn't every metro article titled "Cincinnati, Ohio metropolitan area"?) --MelanieN (talk) 21:17, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- The word area does not define the extent of the area in question. The words "New York metropolitan" only say where the area is located. Ohio is a better example, because of the confusion between the city and state. Where the state is not needed, we do not place a comma between the city and the words metropolitan area, we say Cincinnati metropolitan area, we do not say Cincinnati, metropolitan area. Why would we include a comma just because we include the state? Doing so would pair the state with the city, which is not correct, as the state is not paired with the city, but with the words metropolitan area, which is why we have the Lima, Ohio metropolitan area, Columbus, Ohio metropolitan area, and Wheeling, West Virginia metropolitan area. Were those editors wrong in choosing those names? Why would we have so many like that if not for it being correct? If we put it at Lima, Ohio, metropolitan area, someone would have pointed out the error and suggested moving it to Lima, Ohio metropolitan area. These sentences, in Lima, Ohio, "As of the 2010 census, the city had a population of 38,771. It is the principal city of and is included in the Lima, Ohio Metropolitan Statistical Area, which is included in the Lima-Van Wert–Wapakoneta, Ohio Combined Statistical Area. Lima was founded in 1831." are not missing two commas. Nor does the US federal government place commas there, instead referring to "Lima, OH Metropolitan Statistical Area", "Mansfield, OH Metropolitan Statistical Area". Are they wrong, too? Apteva (talk) 20:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- @Apteva, that's why it is called an AREA. "Area" automatically implies more than just the city limits; if we didn't mean to include a larger area, we would just say the city. If someone lives in the "Rochester statistical area," that does not imply they live in Rochester; it means they live in the Rochester area - an area which is named for its largest city, Rochester, but includes surrounding cities as part of the metropolitan area. Just as we say "the Los Angeles area" which includes cities other than Los Angeles, or "the Boston area" specifically to include a larger area than just Boston. The thing which defines the area is the city around which it centers - not the state in which it lies. It's just that if there is more than one "Rochester statistical area," then we have to add the state name to disambiguate which Rochester we are talking about. The phrase "Ohio metropolitan area" (I'm using Ohio as an example rather than New York because there really is a "New York (city) metropolitan area") is NOT a single clause. In fact this "clause" makes no sense, as a phrase or as a concept, and it is not used by any source anywhere. Your argument to omit the comma because you want this to actually mean it is part of an "Ohio metropolitan area" is way out in left field and not supported by any reliable source. Certainly not by the federal government, which defines these metropolitan statistical areas and names them (usually) after the largest city contained within them. --MelanieN (talk) 19:57, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- That would be correct if the metropolitan area in question was contained within Rochester, which it is not. Someone living in Savannah, New York, in Wayne County, is also within that same metropolitan area, and the only thing that is in common with someone living in Rochester, which is in Monroe County, is that it is in New York. It is not correct to say that they live in the Rochester, New York, metropolitan area, in a big house with a red door, because they do not live in Rochester, New York, and do not even live in the same county as Rochester. It is correct to say that they live in the Rochester, New York metropolitan area, in a big house with a red door. In another thread someone pointed to more detailed rules on commas that show where the second comma is omitted, which includes this case. We can not separate New York from metropolitan area any more than we can separate metropolitan and area with a comma. The four words form a single clause. It is very dangerous for us to try to explain or teach grammar or good writing in the MOS, and all of that advice belongs in our articles and in essays. Often our articles provide better information on a subject than our MOS does, because we have roughly 1000 times as many readers as editors, meaning that 1000 times as many people read and use the article on the subject than do the MOS. Apteva (talk) 19:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that's how it works. The term "metropolitan area" is modified by the name of the city. We're not talking about a city in the state's metropolitan area. We're talking about the metropolitan area defined by the city. It's the Rochester metropolitan area (in the state of New York). When the name of the state is inserted, it functions as an appositive. But if you insist that you're correct, then please cite another case where commas are used as you describe, because I don't think English works that way. Also, please see my earlier reply to you at the top of this section. —Frungi (talk) 09:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- Comment BTW I wish to apologize to User:Frungi, User:AgnosticAphid, User:Dicklyon and anyone else I initially disagreed with here; you were right and I was wrong. My discussion with User:Apteva has convinced me that the second comma is an essential part of the name of these metropolitan areas and should be added whenever they are disambiguated by the state name. Commas may not actually save lives, but they certainly prevent misunderstandings! --MelanieN (talk) 22:01, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
@Apteva: This is not about whether "Cincinnati" requires "Ohio". This is about following a basic punctuation style, followed by "most style manuals, including The Chicago Manual of Style and the AP Stylebook", which requires a comma before and after parenthetical remarks such as a state following a city. This is not unlike the year in an MDY-format date like July 23, 2013, for example where the second comma is required but sadly often neglected.
In an earlier comment, you mentioned "another thread someone pointed to more detailed rules on commas that show where the second comma is omitted, which includes this case."
It would be really helpful if you could actually link to it so we could all read and benefit from it, given the tide of disagreement against you on this. —sroc 💬 22:07, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- It would help me too, and in an hour or two of searching I can probably find it, but is not essential to this conversation, which is not about grammar, but usage. Stick to reliable sources, which universally omit the second comma. Apteva (talk) 22:11, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- That source also uses the ZIP code appreviation rather than the name of the state. Are you suggesting we should do that? --MelanieN (talk) 22:16, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- No, but we do sometimes. Apteva (talk) 22:28, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- Many such articles were created using the weird styling of the Census, and have yet to be fixed for WP style. I fixed that one for you. Dicklyon (talk) 23:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- By taking out the states? Who benefits from that? Certainly no one that I can think of. The census style is not weird, because everyone else uses only one comma. The point is, and was, that we sometimes use the zip code abbreviation instead of spelling out the state. In that case it was likely done because no one wanted a title that was 75 characters long. There are other examples or at least one that I have seen that use the abbreviation for the state. Misplaced Pages certainly does other things that are weird and do not reflect common usage, but those are abominations, not goals. Apteva (talk) 23:08, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- "reliable sources, which universally omit the second comma". "everyone else uses only one comma". Who else, for example? The census page is not really comparable to our article titles because of their use of ZIP code abbreveations; can you show us other sources that omit the comma after the state in the names of metropolitan areas? --MelanieN (talk) 23:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- The states are often omitted from multi-city areas, as you can confirm by searching for sources. Many sources do just use the census bureau's styling, but of those that don't (ie. that don't copy the postal codes), omitting the states altogether is most common. The mutiple cities make the name completely unambiguous already, and unlike standalone city names, there's no lack of clarity on what the topic is. A recent RFC decided that the state is not needed in such cases. Dicklyon (talk) 23:41, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- It helps to include the states because even though Youngstown, Warren, and Boardman are all in Ohio, the MSA includes Mercer County, Pennsylvania. This though is not a discussion of that article title, and moving it was really just WP:Pointy. The White House, Forbes, a law office, a school (Lima ... is the principal city of and is included in the Lima, Ohio Metropolitan Statistical Area, which is included in the Lima-Van WertWapakoneta, Ohio Combined Statistical Area)., payscale, places of America, hiker central, a real estate service, Missouri Census Data Center (a sponsored program of the Missouri State Library) It is the exceptions that are hard to find, not the ones with one comma. So far in adding these I have found none that follow a two comma format. Apteva (talk) 00:02, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- By taking out the states? Who benefits from that? Certainly no one that I can think of. The census style is not weird, because everyone else uses only one comma. The point is, and was, that we sometimes use the zip code abbreviation instead of spelling out the state. In that case it was likely done because no one wanted a title that was 75 characters long. There are other examples or at least one that I have seen that use the abbreviation for the state. Misplaced Pages certainly does other things that are weird and do not reflect common usage, but those are abominations, not goals. Apteva (talk) 23:08, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- Many such articles were created using the weird styling of the Census, and have yet to be fixed for WP style. I fixed that one for you. Dicklyon (talk) 23:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- No, but we do sometimes. Apteva (talk) 22:28, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- That source also uses the ZIP code appreviation rather than the name of the state. Are you suggesting we should do that? --MelanieN (talk) 22:16, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
If I understand User:Apteva’s position correctly (and please correct me if I’m wrong), the belief here is that terms like “metropolitan area” are in fact abbreviations of “ metropolitan area”. That is, the belief is that “ metropolitan area” is actually shorthand for “ metropolitan area”, and a comma’s thrown in there just ’cause. I believe this is completely fallacious, firstly because the use of any commas in this case makes no sense grammatically, and secondly because it’s begging the question—it seems that this explanation was thought up in an attempt to make sense of the grammatical error of the missing closing comma, and now it’s being cited as fact in support of that error. I’m not saying here that any other arguments for “, metropolitan area” are necessarily invalid, but this one needs to stop being used. (I haven’t read everything between my last post and this one, so if it has stopped being used, please disregard this.) —Frungi (talk) 05:34, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- The best thing to do with lame arguments supported by nobody but Apteva is to simply ignore them. But that's hard. Dicklyon (talk) 06:02, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- I disagree. Anyone participating in a discussion should be afforded the same opportunity as anyone else to be productive, in this case by having faulty, preconceived notions challenged. If those notions are simply ignored, then that individual may never get free of them and meaningfully contribute to the conversation, and that’s just a stupid reason for that potential loss. —Frungi (talk) 06:24, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- Sure, but after a lame idea has been refuted, and the person pushing it keeps pushing it, it is better to ignore it than to keep giving it air. This is pretty much always the case with Apteva, which is why he has gotten dozens of editors so annoyed that they topic banned him from style-related move discussions (or maybe something not quite broad enough to keep him away from discussions like this one?). Dicklyon (talk) 16:44, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- I disagree. Anyone participating in a discussion should be afforded the same opportunity as anyone else to be productive, in this case by having faulty, preconceived notions challenged. If those notions are simply ignored, then that individual may never get free of them and meaningfully contribute to the conversation, and that’s just a stupid reason for that potential loss. —Frungi (talk) 06:24, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
I'd like to offer an "outside view" on this as someone who doesn't live in the USA (and finds the practice of adding the name of a state to a city that doesn't need disambiguating somewhat bemusing). Of the forms discussed so far, the only one that makes sense to me and describes what you're trying to do is metropolitan area, . I think this is correct because:
- the name of the area is metropolitan area - it doesn't seem to make any sense to insert a comma-separated disambiguation term in the middle of it, any more than we would use the form John, mathematician, Smith.
- this keeps it more consistent with areas that don't need disambiguation - so it's either metropolitan area (no disambiguation) or metropolitan area, .
- it also keeps it more consistent with the general disambiguation practice of , .
As discussed above, Columbus, Ohio metropolitan area looks like the article is about Columbus in the Ohio metropolitan area. And to an outsider Columbus, Ohio, metropolitan area just looks weird and convoluted. I think the thing to grasp here is the name of the city is Columbus not Columbus, Ohio - Ohio is a disambiguation term so should appear after the title of the article's subject. WaggersTALK 07:47, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that this would be the most natural title, plus we wouldn't have the missing-comma question. I have made a similar suggestion more than once in this and the related WT:AT discussion (in the form of “ metropolitan area ()”), and unless I missed something (which is entirely possible), no one has reacted to it at all. I would love to know if there are any reasons against it. —Frungi (talk) 07:57, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- That would get into the area of WP:OR. Misplaced Pages does not make things up, and instead uses what reliable sources use, in this case, the format , . No one has had any trouble finding or using that format. There are four articles that are in the process of being moved that deviate from that, but all the rest follow that format. I have not counted the number of articles we have, but there are 939 of these metropolitan and micropolitan areas in the U.S. in the link above. The census bureau includes the state in the names of all 939, but by convention and common practice in reliable sources, we omit the state for many of these. Apteva (talk) 08:21, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- It is not WP:OR to follow a style which is endorsed by the major style guides and explicitly by the MOS, namely, that any combination of +comma+ is always followed by another comma (unless superseded by other punctuation). You've not pointed to any style guides that make an exception for +comma++"metropolitan area"; instead, you have only referred to other sources that deviate from the accepted style. —sroc 💬 10:08, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- The rules on commas go on to explain the situations where the second comma is omitted, in this case because it would indicate a different the meaning. Williamsport, PA Metropolitan Statistical Area, and Williamsport, PA, Metropolitan Statistical Area have two different meanings. One is a metropolitan area centered on Williamsport, the other would be one contained within Williamsport. In the first case the state is attached to the words MSA, in the second case the state is a means of identifying Williamsport from all of the other Williamsport's. Does anyone really think that no one in the U.S. federal government knows how to use commas properly, and that we need to "correct" their grammar? How many other things is the whole world wrong about that we need to "correct"? We report, we do not make things up. Changes come not from our pages, but are reported in our articles after they have changed. Apteva (talk) 12:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- I must say I still have no idea where you’re getting this. If you consider “Metropolitan Statistical Area” to be synonymous with “PA Metropolitan Statistical Area” in this context, then a preceding comma indicates membership within that area: “Williamsport, PA Metropolitan Statistical Area” refers to a Williamsport that is located within the PA MSA (which is not a thing that exists), just as “Williamsport, Pennsylvania” refers to the Williamsport that is located within Pennsylvania. As I’ve asked before, please show another case where commas are used as you imagine they are here (“, ”), because I’m pretty sure this does not happen in English (see jelly doughnut, Obama administration, Roman Empire, etc.—“ ”). —Frungi (talk) 19:43, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- The rules on commas go on to explain the situations where the second comma is omitted, in this case because it would indicate a different the meaning. Williamsport, PA Metropolitan Statistical Area, and Williamsport, PA, Metropolitan Statistical Area have two different meanings. One is a metropolitan area centered on Williamsport, the other would be one contained within Williamsport. In the first case the state is attached to the words MSA, in the second case the state is a means of identifying Williamsport from all of the other Williamsport's. Does anyone really think that no one in the U.S. federal government knows how to use commas properly, and that we need to "correct" their grammar? How many other things is the whole world wrong about that we need to "correct"? We report, we do not make things up. Changes come not from our pages, but are reported in our articles after they have changed. Apteva (talk) 12:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- This is not an OR issue. This is a grammar issue, and it’s entirely within the jurisdiction of our MOS (which I should hope is based on authoritative guides). These aren’t names. “Portland” is a name; “Oregon” is a name; “Portland, Oregon” is a name. These areas don’t have names, but descriptive titles, and we have every reason to follow basic rules of English with them. —Frungi (talk) 10:28, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- MSA's have names that are assigned by the census bureau, or actually, the Office of Management and Budget, and they regularly change those names. Most people use those names and do not make up new ones to suit their own fancy. I found one example where someone was not aware that there is no comma after the state, but everyone else uses the name and formatting of that name that the census bureau uses, with the exception that some spell out the state and some abbreviate the state or leave it out. The name of an MSA is just as specific as the name of a city or a state, although they are simpler, because they do not include any flowery words that no one uses, like for Rhode Island, which is actually "The State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations". FYI, MSA's are proper nouns and are capitalized, but we ignore that trivia, as do many RS's. Apteva (talk) 12:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- @Apteva, your Reliable Source argument, which you supported above by many citations, is powerful evidence that the name is usually given as "Columbus, Ohio metropolitan area". And I would have supported that formulation - DID support that formulation - until you started insisting that this format referred to something called an "Ohio metropolitan area." This error is so egregious - yet so logical if the lack of a second comma is taken literally - that I realized the second comma is necessary to avoid misunderstanding. --MelanieN (talk) 14:37, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- Curious. And calling it a metropolitan statistical area in Ohio makes it in another state other than in Ohio? What I said was that what it says is that it is in Ohio, and not contained within the city which is used to name it, such as Dayton, which would be implied if the second comma was included, nothing else. I did not say that the name of the statistical area is "Ohio metropolitan area", which would really be a big metropolitan area. Apteva (talk) 01:48, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- My recommendation to everyone reading this thread is ignore everything I have said if it confuses or even annoys them, go to this website, and use whatever names are there. Apteva (talk) 01:54, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- The second comma implies that the name of the state is parenthetical. This is called apposition, and it’s a very common use of commas. And as has been explained before, the “San Diego metropolitan area” is not a metropolitan area inside of San Diego, just as the “Roman Empire” was not inside Rome, or a “jelly doughnut” is not a doughnut inside jelly. The city is used to identify the area because it’s the most important or prominent part of the area. That is, the “Dayton, Ohio, metropolitan area” is the metropolitan area of which Dayton, Ohio, is the most prominent part.
- I hope this clears things up for you. If not, I’ll be blunt: If you cannot prove that this belief of yours is true, whether by showing an explicit rule of grammar or by showing other examples of this use, then stop giving it more weight than you would something that you simply made up. It just confuses the whole matter, and if there are valid reasons to avoid the second comma, they’re obscured by your misinformation. —Frungi (talk) 02:09, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- @Apteva, your Reliable Source argument, which you supported above by many citations, is powerful evidence that the name is usually given as "Columbus, Ohio metropolitan area". And I would have supported that formulation - DID support that formulation - until you started insisting that this format referred to something called an "Ohio metropolitan area." This error is so egregious - yet so logical if the lack of a second comma is taken literally - that I realized the second comma is necessary to avoid misunderstanding. --MelanieN (talk) 14:37, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- MSA's have names that are assigned by the census bureau, or actually, the Office of Management and Budget, and they regularly change those names. Most people use those names and do not make up new ones to suit their own fancy. I found one example where someone was not aware that there is no comma after the state, but everyone else uses the name and formatting of that name that the census bureau uses, with the exception that some spell out the state and some abbreviate the state or leave it out. The name of an MSA is just as specific as the name of a city or a state, although they are simpler, because they do not include any flowery words that no one uses, like for Rhode Island, which is actually "The State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations". FYI, MSA's are proper nouns and are capitalized, but we ignore that trivia, as do many RS's. Apteva (talk) 12:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- It is not WP:OR to follow a style which is endorsed by the major style guides and explicitly by the MOS, namely, that any combination of +comma+ is always followed by another comma (unless superseded by other punctuation). You've not pointed to any style guides that make an exception for +comma++"metropolitan area"; instead, you have only referred to other sources that deviate from the accepted style. —sroc 💬 10:08, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- That would get into the area of WP:OR. Misplaced Pages does not make things up, and instead uses what reliable sources use, in this case, the format , . No one has had any trouble finding or using that format. There are four articles that are in the process of being moved that deviate from that, but all the rest follow that format. I have not counted the number of articles we have, but there are 939 of these metropolitan and micropolitan areas in the U.S. in the link above. The census bureau includes the state in the names of all 939, but by convention and common practice in reliable sources, we omit the state for many of these. Apteva (talk) 08:21, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
This discussion of commas indicates that when the state is used in a parenthetical or possessive form the second comma is omitted. I can only guess that is what the census bureau is doing. The bottom line, is that none of us are going to change the census bureau or the rest of the world no matter how many commas we use, and per WP:OR, our job is to look for reliable sources and find out what they use. Why they use them is not particularly important. English has a lot of idiosyncrasies that just do not make any sense. Since all the MSA's are created by the OMB, we really have no choice other than to use whatever they give us. Apteva (talk) 03:07, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- We do have choices about how WP:MOS is applied to styling titles. But your topic ban (see ) seems to say that your opinions on the application of the MOS to titling decisions is out of bounds for you. So why not just back off and stop hammering us with your lame theories about what the punctuation means here? Dicklyon (talk) 03:21, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- Wrong again. That page indicates that when the possessive form of a city’s name is used (“Hartford’s investment”), or the city name is part of a compound phrase (“a Hartford-based company”), and the state’s name is included immediately after the city’s, the second comma is omitted. An alternate interpretation is that the second comma is overridden or superseded by another punctuation mark (an apostrophe or a hyphen). There is nothing on that page that implies that the comma may be omitted when there is no other punctuation following the state.
- You would have a point about OR if we were talking about areas with proper names rather than descriptive titles, but, again, that’s debatable at best (I’m still leaning toward the latter, especially since “metropolitan area” usually isn’t capitalized). And what of “metropolitan areas” that are distinct from MSAs? And what of areas where the terms are used interchangeably? —Frungi (talk) 03:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- To be correct, it is capitalized, as we do for Akron, OH Metropolitan Statistical Area. When we say Dayton metropolitan area, it is not capitalized, because we are not referring to a specific MSA, but are referring to both the MSA and the CSA, and are just generally referring to the metropolitan area which includes Dayton. Dayton metropolitan area is not a proper noun because it is missing a word, "statistical". To be correct it would also need the state, but no one is going to say that Dayton Metropolitan Statistical Area is not a proper noun just because the state is missing from the name, just as no one would say that William Clinton was not a proper noun because it was missing the word "Jefferson". There are many reliable sources that do not capitalize metropolitan statistical area, so I would not quibble over whether we do or do not capitalize each, or care if we standardized them or not. Apteva (talk) 17:12, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
“There are many reliable sources that do not capitalize metropolitan statistical area”
—then wouldn’t that mean that there are many reliable sources that don’t consider it a proper name? Because otherwise they’d capitalize it. Anyway, I strongly oppose breaking basic rules of grammar for descriptive names like these (in no small part due to the confusion that you yourself have demonstrated it can cause), and I think formatting them as “Akron Metropolitan Statistical Area (Ohio)” should be acceptable to both sides. —Frungi (talk) 18:03, 24 July 2013 (UTC)- We are not breaking any rules of grammar, nor is the census bureau breaking any rules of grammar. I do not see any reason for not using the same names that everyone else uses. Apteva (talk) 19:15, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- The rules of grammar pertaining to apposition, which require a comma on either side of the appositional phrase (in this case, the state’s name). This has been explained multiple times. —Frungi (talk) 20:35, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- Per this link, provided by the above editor, it is non-controversial for the OMB or anyone else to omit the second comma when the state is abbreviated. What I am finding though, is it is more common to not put it in when the state is not abbreviated (see above examples). Apteva (talk) 01:23, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, I got it from User:Dicklyon over at the related WT:AT discussion. To your latter point, I think it’s been said both here and there that while it may be increasingly accepted (or less unaccepted) o omit the comma after an appositional phrase, it’s best to limit the potential for confusion, especially in article titles—and with respect, you’ve demonstrated that danger very convincingly. —Frungi (talk) 01:33, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
- Per this link, provided by the above editor, it is non-controversial for the OMB or anyone else to omit the second comma when the state is abbreviated. What I am finding though, is it is more common to not put it in when the state is not abbreviated (see above examples). Apteva (talk) 01:23, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
- The rules of grammar pertaining to apposition, which require a comma on either side of the appositional phrase (in this case, the state’s name). This has been explained multiple times. —Frungi (talk) 20:35, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- We are not breaking any rules of grammar, nor is the census bureau breaking any rules of grammar. I do not see any reason for not using the same names that everyone else uses. Apteva (talk) 19:15, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- To be correct, it is capitalized, as we do for Akron, OH Metropolitan Statistical Area. When we say Dayton metropolitan area, it is not capitalized, because we are not referring to a specific MSA, but are referring to both the MSA and the CSA, and are just generally referring to the metropolitan area which includes Dayton. Dayton metropolitan area is not a proper noun because it is missing a word, "statistical". To be correct it would also need the state, but no one is going to say that Dayton Metropolitan Statistical Area is not a proper noun just because the state is missing from the name, just as no one would say that William Clinton was not a proper noun because it was missing the word "Jefferson". There are many reliable sources that do not capitalize metropolitan statistical area, so I would not quibble over whether we do or do not capitalize each, or care if we standardized them or not. Apteva (talk) 17:12, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
Australia
The section on Australia states:
Most Australian settlement articles are at Town, State/Territory, irrespective of uniqueness or ambiguity; however, City alone for a large city is acceptable if the context is clear, and Town alone if the name is unique, or if the place-name is the primary topic for that name. In particular, the cities of Perth, Western Australia, and Newcastle, New South Wales, often need to be disambiguated from their namesakes in the UK; editorial judgement is required in international contexts, where ], may be preferable to ], and where suburbs of large cities may be rendered in relation to city rather than state (e.g., Dulwich Hill, Sydney, rather than Dulwich Hill, New South Wales). Generally, the larger state capitals, and Canberra, can generally drop their state or territory (Sydney rather than ], and Melbourne rather than ], unless the state/territory is an explicit theme). Where possible, avoid the repetition of Australia in such items as ], by simply omitting the name of the country.
A few issues:
- Firstly, why might Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia, be preferable to Newcastle, New South Wales? There isn't any another New South Wales that we need to disambiguate from. It's not helpful that this contradicts the example given in the second sentence, either.
- Secondly, there is an article named Dulwich Hill, New South Wales, not Dulwich Hill, Sydney, directly contradicting the example given. Is it a bad example, a bad rule, or should the article be moved to comply?
- Thirdly, what does "unless the state/territory is an explicit theme" mean?
- Fourthly, do we need to explicitly say "avoid the repetition of Australia in such items as Perth, Western Australia, Australia, by simply omitting the name of the country"? Shouldn't the country name be omitted from the title in any case, except to disambiguate (which would almost certainly be unnecessary if the state/territory name is used, and particularly one that includes the word "Australia")? —sroc 💬 02:03, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
- The examples just need to be replaced with ones that do illustrate the principles. The articles are at Newcastle, New South Wales and Dulwich Hill, New South Wales, so those are not good examples, and should be replaced. This is a naming convention, so the words "explicit theme" have little meaning. If we were making a list of towns in Western Australia, when we got to Perth the list is tidier if we keep the Western Australia, but that does not affect the article title. I can see what they were thinking though, here is a list of names, and the theme I am going to use is city, state, or the theme I am going to use is city, country, but we really do not get to name things, we use the names that others use, and document those names. Where we deviate from that is where there would be a conflict. We can not just decide to name the Australian area Newcastle, because of about 30 others of that name around the globe. Apteva (talk) 08:19, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, I felt I was going a bit mad reading it.
- The only examples using , instead of , I know of are for localities other than suburbs, such as: The Rocks, Sydney (an "urban locality, tourist precinct and historic area"); Bell railway station, Melbourne; St Kilda Road, Melbourne; Royal Park, Melbourne—the entries at List of Sydney suburbs, Category:Suburbs of Sydney (excepting The Rocks) and List of Perth suburbs all use the latter format.
- How about this:
Most Australian settlement articles are at Town, State/Territory; however, the name of a major city or town may be used alone if the place is the primary topic for that name (e.g., Sydney rather than ]). The cities of Perth, Western Australia, and Newcastle, New South Wales, need to be disambiguated from their namesakes in the UK. Localities other than suburbs and places such as roads, train stations, parks, etc., may be disambiguated, where necessary, by reference to city rather than state (e.g., The Rocks, Sydney, rather than ]; St Kilda Road, Melbourne, rather than ]). State/Territory names should not be abbreviated in article titles.
- —sroc 💬 10:16, 22 July 2013 (UTC) updated —sroc 💬 11:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- Works for me. Do it. If anyone finds anything else it can be changed then. Our articles dictate our guidelines, not the other way around. As mentioned above, 1000 times as many people read and use our articles than read and use our guidelines (readers outnumber editors by 1000:1). Apteva (talk) 19:44, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree this is simpler and seems to reflect usage. Ben MacDui 19:49, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe I should have said 10000, because it is possible that only 10% of our editors read our guidelines. We want people to click edit when they see something to fix, and fix it, we do not want them to have to spend three months learning a set of guidelines before making their first edit. We do not even bother to welcome someone unless they make more than a few edits. But we do hope that long term editors (more than 500 edits) do spend some time reading at least some of our guidelines and policies. Apteva (talk) 20:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree this is simpler and seems to reflect usage. Ben MacDui 19:49, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- Works for me. Do it. If anyone finds anything else it can be changed then. Our articles dictate our guidelines, not the other way around. As mentioned above, 1000 times as many people read and use our articles than read and use our guidelines (readers outnumber editors by 1000:1). Apteva (talk) 19:44, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps you might consider asking the editors at Misplaced Pages:Australian Wikipedians' notice board for their views? Personally I disagree strongly with the inclusion of the word "major" in the phrase "the name of a major city or town may be used alone if the place is the primary topic for that name" Any town, settlement etc. in Australia should only be disambiguated if it is not unique AND not the primary topic. I would advise looking at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (geographic names)/Archives/2011/January/Archives/2011/February#Current discussions? and Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (geographic names)/Archives/2011/March#Current discussions? -- Mattinbgn (talk) 21:13, 22 July 2013 (UTC) Also see Misplaced Pages:Australian Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 36#RM -- moving forward. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 21:19, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed. Trying to distinguish based on whether a city is "major" or "large" is arbitrary and inherently problematic. Why unnecessarily disambiguate any city name regardless of size? --B2C 21:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I have no issue with leaving out the word major. It was not in there before, and all we said was if it "is unique, or if the place-name is the primary topic for that name." Apteva (talk) 21:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I have no idea what the "if context is clear" phrase refers to with respect to City alone but not Town alone. I've combined the two into one coherent statement. --B2C 22:02, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- The previous version was vague and inconsistent by saying that the State/Territory is usually included "irrespective of uniqueness or ambiguity" but can be omitted for a "large city" or "Town alone if the name is unique, or if the place-name is the primary topic for that name". Happy to omit the "major" though. —sroc 💬 22:21, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- It has always seemed obvious to me that if a given use of a name is unique then it is the primary topic, but others have disagreed with me, arguing that there has to be a disambiguous situation - two or more uses for a given name - in order for "primary topic" to make sense. So, for clarity, maybe we should leave the "unique or primary topic" language in there? --B2C 23:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- @Born2cycle: I think "unique" is redundant: if it's unique, it will be the primary topic; if it's a unique place name but some other use is the primary topic, then it can't have that name anyway. —sroc 💬 23:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- It has always seemed obvious to me that if a given use of a name is unique then it is the primary topic, but others have disagreed with me, arguing that there has to be a disambiguous situation - two or more uses for a given name - in order for "primary topic" to make sense. So, for clarity, maybe we should leave the "unique or primary topic" language in there? --B2C 23:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- The previous version was vague and inconsistent by saying that the State/Territory is usually included "irrespective of uniqueness or ambiguity" but can be omitted for a "large city" or "Town alone if the name is unique, or if the place-name is the primary topic for that name". Happy to omit the "major" though. —sroc 💬 22:21, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I have no idea what the "if context is clear" phrase refers to with respect to City alone but not Town alone. I've combined the two into one coherent statement. --B2C 22:02, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I have no issue with leaving out the word major. It was not in there before, and all we said was if it "is unique, or if the place-name is the primary topic for that name." Apteva (talk) 21:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
I've pointed here from Misplaced Pages:Australian Wikipedians' notice board#Geographic names in article titles to invite further comments, but in the meantime have made the change (without "major") as it's certainly an improvement on the version we had before. —sroc 💬 23:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I have no problem including the word unique, even though as pointed out it is awfully hard to have a unique name that is not also the primary topic. The words "primary topic", though, are obscure to Misplaced Pages, "unique" is easily understood. Apteva (talk) 23:32, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree it is redundant. But that's per my interpretation. As I just noted, others have argued that the concept "primary topic" has no meaning in a context where a name has an unambiguous unique use. For example, they would argue that the city of Whyalla is not the primary topic of "Whyalla" because there are no other uses of that name. Therefore, to make sure such arguments are not made to defend unnecessarily disambiguating titles like Whyalla, I suggest we include the word unique. It doesn't hurt, except to propagate the inane notion that a unique use of the name is not the primary topic of that name.
Alternately, we could add the clarification to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. But somebody else needs to do it, because every time I've tried to clarify this at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in the past, it has been rejected. --B2C 23:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I tried again. If there is no objection/revert, then it's unnecessary to make the redundant clarification here. --B2C 23:58, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I've come around on this one, I have to say. Last time it was discussed I was on the mandatory disambiguation side, for mostly practical reasons, but I really can't see a reason for it anymore. If it's the only town of that name anywhere, then a mandatory ", state" is pointless. Regarding suburbs, where disambiguation is necessary I would prefer ", state" rather than ", city", since this is how most people would think of it and it's certainly how you would address something to go to that place. Frickeg (talk) 00:12, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- I would defer to local usage. Guidelines can be dangerous. Apteva (talk) 01:00, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- I've come around on this one, I have to say. Last time it was discussed I was on the mandatory disambiguation side, for mostly practical reasons, but I really can't see a reason for it anymore. If it's the only town of that name anywhere, then a mandatory ", state" is pointless. Regarding suburbs, where disambiguation is necessary I would prefer ", state" rather than ", city", since this is how most people would think of it and it's certainly how you would address something to go to that place. Frickeg (talk) 00:12, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- I tried again. If there is no objection/revert, then it's unnecessary to make the redundant clarification here. --B2C 23:58, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree it is redundant. But that's per my interpretation. As I just noted, others have argued that the concept "primary topic" has no meaning in a context where a name has an unambiguous unique use. For example, they would argue that the city of Whyalla is not the primary topic of "Whyalla" because there are no other uses of that name. Therefore, to make sure such arguments are not made to defend unnecessarily disambiguating titles like Whyalla, I suggest we include the word unique. It doesn't hurt, except to propagate the inane notion that a unique use of the name is not the primary topic of that name.
My efforts to clarify that the unique use of a term is its primary topic at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC have already been reverted. I started a discussion about it here:
--B2C 00:51, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't think roads should be included in the scope of this section, nor given as an example, as these are covered by the (relatively new) Naming conventions (Australian roads) – which, by the way, recommends disambiguation by brackets, ie "<road> (<city>)" rather than "<road>, <city>". - Evad37 (talk) 01:06, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- Per WP:BRD, I have reverted (ie, removed) the roads-related aspect of the recent bold edit, pending discussion here (so at least now we don't have two guidelines conflicting with each other) - Evad37 (talk) 01:15, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- Good call. This convention does not address roads. --B2C 01:24, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed, good pick-up. Wasn't aware of that one. Shouldn't we link to it from here so people can find it if they come here first (as would seem probable)? —sroc 💬 03:17, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- Seems like a good idea, so I have added a link to it - Evad37 (talk) 05:46, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- Probably better to put the word "unique" back in. Editors understand unique better than "primary topic". If the name of a city is unique, it does not need to include the state/territory. We certainly did not need to include unique three times ("irrespective of uniqueness or ambiguity; however, City alone for a large city is acceptable if the context is clear, and Town alone if the name is unique"). Apteva (talk) 04:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed, good pick-up. Wasn't aware of that one. Shouldn't we link to it from here so people can find it if they come here first (as would seem probable)? —sroc 💬 03:17, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
Chicago, Illinois
This discussion on the name of Chicago categories may be of interest. Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_July_22#Category:Chicago.2C_Illinois. I've proposed that the discussion be moved here as it has impacts far beyond Chicago, but for now please share your thoughts at CFD.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:03, 22 July 2013 (UTC)