Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:10, 12 June 2013

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy.

I will be taking a major wikibreak from July 1 to July 21. During that time I intend to essentially close this page, and I intend to avoid all Misplaced Pages work other than anything urgent or important that Arbcom members ask me to do.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:57, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

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Misplaced Pages Renaissance of improvements

I think we always suspected, some day, there would be a WP Renaissance, or Awakening, where prior ideas would resurface with renewed enthusiasm, as if it were the Golden Age of Misplaced Pages to be re-guilded. I suspect the time has arrived. Previously, I had been lamenting the dwindling interest, when I noticed all pages from the Catholic Encyclopedia had been verified as complete WP articles in 2012, as 100% done. However, during the past few weeks, I have noticed a fascinating trend: several new people are requesting fixes to problems abandoned 2-4 years ago. It's not just me re-thinking what could have been fixed, in prior years (such as 2-reply edit-conflicts fixed by auto-merging as FIFO order). Instead, people (some as IP editors) are "re-inventing the wheel" to fix many separate problems from past years. For example:

• One in New York noted kg-to-lb conversions are sloppy, so 62 kg (137 lb) should be "(137 lb)" as planned 4 years ago (but forgotten).
• One in Bratislava noted Swiss flag icon oversized everywhere: should be smaller 17px: , as asked 2 years ago.
• A regular user noted the wp:FRS list of RfC reviewers was halting at 60-second timeout, as during the past 2 years, so I fixed it to run in 4 seconds.
• A regular user requested creation of the Old Style calendar leap-year pages, after 2 years since the common-year pages from 2011 (see: "Old Style leap year starting on Monday").

When the users requested the improvements, they seemed totally unaware how the same (or similar) suggestions were made to the problems in 2009-2011, but dropped/lost or ignored in the confusion. Now, I am wondering if some of those new people will want to restart many of the 2,000 dormant wp:WikiProjects, which have faded since 2009. Possible explanations: (1) the Lua-based cite templates, running 13x faster, have allowed people to update major articles in 7 seconds (formerly "28 sec" per edit), and now they think this place is easy to improve; or (2) people have finished most simple fixes so the major issues are what remains to fix; or (3) the remaining people are not as negative and so new people offer more suggestions, or (4) what do you think is making so many people suggest major improvements, again? -Wikid77 (talk) 05:24, 1 June, 00:24, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Or perhaps the negative responses to suggestions just take longer to arrive these days? -Wikid77 13:04, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Of course, none of the three examples you give count as "major" improvements, just small fixes. I hadn't noticed a drop or rise in these, such things have always happened, so perhaps the right answer is 5) selection bias? Fram (talk) 07:41, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Each is a major improvement relative to related cases (see details below). -Wikid77 00:24, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Considering the non-controversial fixes: It's easy to say you will fix something, a lot harder to actually do it. It does make me wonder if an issue tracking style system might be better suited for these sorts of discussions. A wiki is a poor format for making sure things don't get forgotten. Gigs (talk) 16:48, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

• Issue-tracking system would help prioritize major issues: That is a great idea, and I think if each problem had been tracked, from the outset, within an issue-tracking system, then they would have been fixed much sooner, years sooner, as in each case:

• Swiss flag icon needing 17px height: Even the related Template:CHE had the Swiss flag icon (now in over 27,300 pages) resized as 17px over 5 years ago, and I noticed 20px was too large, and other editors discussed it, but the fix affects multiple templates and was dropped.
• The kg-to-lb fix was logged/forgotten 4 years ago: Among the top, most-used measurement conversions, kg/lb, are in the top 5, where Template:Convert/kg is used in over 60,100 pages, inside many of the Who's-Who of major articles, compared to Convert/cm in 26,825 pages.
• Common WP:FRS was slow for 2 years: I remember the wp:FRS list (wp:Feedback request service) has been popular, as viewed ~30x times per day (as compared to wp:Admin with 35 pageviews per day). The prior slow speed was a known issue, but not on a tracking list of problems to improve.

In all three cases, each issue would have remained near the very top of priorities, but they were in minor or busy talk-pages, where other newer issues were getting the attention, and people were coping, such as using {{CHE}} with 17px height when the {{flag|Switzerland}} icon was too large in the 27,300 pages, or using Convert/kg to override the poor default precision of 3-pound swings among 60,100 pages. So, yes, an issue-tracking system would have fixed each issue much sooner. The distractions which eclipsed each of the 3 complex issues occurred weekly, not daily, and all 3 could have been fixed by techniques known 3-4 years ago if reconsidered each day. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:11, 3 June, 04:05, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

• A list of major issues for each template/report would work: Although it would be great to have an issues-tracking system, I think that even if there had been a written list of the major issues, expanded for each template set or report page, then that could have helped remind people to keep reassessing the unresolved problems. Perhaps there could be a subpage name, such as "Template_talk:Xxx/Issues_list" which could contain a simple sortable table of each issue noted, with link to each talk-page/archive thread, plus date, status, suggested importance level, and extra note. Even such a simple list could be periodically reviewed, at least every 3 months, so that the above problems would not be left unresolved for 2-4 years. In each table, the "status" column would indicate completion, and the "importance level" could be increased if a problem was noted as still causing much grief months later. In the case of multiple similar templates, then a common template-talk page could be used to keep the central issues list. -Wikid77 02:35, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

• Next step is how-to guide for issues-tracking pages: Because even a simple list, of ongoing issues to reconsider, could help remember them, repeatedly, during a year, then we should have a how-to guide, by creating expanding page wp:Tracking_issues, to explain the concepts, and give examples of how some major improvements were forgotten, for years, until re-suggested by new users. That is the next step to wider usage. -Wikid77 01:00, 6 June, 03:26/22:02, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Fixes delayed by protected pages and complexity: The delay in many fixes can be traced to protected templates (or other pages) where editors cannot be wp:BOLD and must wait days (or weeks) for some admin to say, "Need wider consensus" and reject the fixes, in an approval bottleneck. Instead, with semi-protected pages, there might be some failed attempts, but typically, several people work together and forge a middle-ground solution which typically works well, certainly better than no improvements for 2-4 years. Another reason, which delays the fixes, can be the complexity level, which ties to why admins note "need wider consensus" because many users cannot see the solution amid the complex structures of templates (or Lua script modules). However, a few extra months of analysis, and requesting admins to reconsider {editprotected} updates, can often solve problems which would be left for years. The long-term view, provided by wp:Tracking_issues, could overcome the complexity and protection delays. However, I am also thinking that any major template not updated after 3 years (Template:Flag or Template:Convert/kg since 1 April 2010) could indicate a bottleneck which has hindered improvements. -Wikid77 21:14, 9 June, 22:57, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

An Open Letter to Jimmy Wales

Dear Mr. Wales,

I'm going to take this opportunity to respond directly to you regarding your views on public relations professionals editing Misplaced Pages.

While in a perfect world, one may be able to wave a magic wand that prevents all public relations and marketing professionals from editing this encyclopedia, the reality is that under Misplaced Pages's current format, one cannot. That leaves two functional options: ban PR/marketing professionals from editing (such ban being easy to evade by simply not declaring affiliations), or set guidelines to allow them to do in a way that the community can oversee their efforts. While a ban may make it easy to discover those PR/marketing professionals who write bad articles, it will also make those who write good articles and carefully manage their edit histories (so as to remain undetected) more valuable to brands and individuals who want to hire a Misplaced Pages editor. Experienced editors who were Wikipedians first and began editing for agencies/brands later are the best candidates to successfully evade detection, and these are the kinds of people that agencies like to hire.

Providing a mechanism for PR/marketing professionals to make edits that are supervised by the community means greater transparency and awareness of what we are doing on Misplaced Pages. This is the way that I have pioneered, as my articles are written in a sandbox and moved to mainspace by editors who have no affiliation with my agency, Tony Ahn & Co.

Regarding DYK, the current format allows almost every article that meets the DYK nomination criteria to appear on the main page. Attempting to ban PR/marketing professionals from nominating articles that qualify for DYK will be even more difficult than preventing them from making edits. I'm not sure what the functional solution is here, but until the community comes up with one that works in practice as well as theory, things will continue the way they are now. If the community definitively prohibits PR and marketing practitioners from using DYK, then I will stop nominating. However, the PR and marketing people who work under the radar will not.

If you outlaw PR editing, only outlaws will PR edit. I'm Tony Ahn (talk) 03:28, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Completely right on at the start, but there needs to be a mechanism to stop promotionally-intended articles from being spammed to the main page. Independent oversight with teeth, beyond just saying "this subject is notable and this hook is interesting enough." I repeat that Tony is not the problem, the problem is structural. Carrite (talk) 18:15, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

We're perhaps looking at a DYK restructuring, maybe? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 18:37, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I support the community in whatever it deems best, and I'm happy to consult to help you achieve your goals. I'm Tony Ahn (talk) 19:42, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to say I completely disagree and is not based on facts.The overwhelming majority of those doing promotional or COI edits whether they are PR/marketing professionals,freelancers like Elance ,companies and others editing are largely single-purpose account come directly edit merely pages for which they have been paid or there own company,organization page and leave they will not go beyond it.They are not interested in Misplaced Pages and it is very less likely that will become Wikipedians.This includes August institutions like the American Institute of Physics asked there librarian to add external links of interviews done by there institution and promote there resource here like in Facebook and Twitter . This led to an unfortunate dispute between RC Patrollers who warned the editor as it appeared like spamming to them and few other editors .If they are here to improve articles ,donate pictures,materials it is welcomed by all but mere mass linking was objected by some editors and supported by some as it was from an August organization. I had asked Senior editor Ocassi what was benefit of allowing PR advocates or in simple terms what was the benefit of paid/Coi editing to Misplaced Pages.I was told that There is an $81,000 study about paid editing currently being funded by Wikimedia Deutschland and another editor was tracking freelance editors through his conclusions were not known. I have to confess I could not continue the conversation with him due to a personal reasons.

PR/marketing professionals like the Editor above amongst are handful of those who come through WP:Cooperation and not SPA less than 100 compared to the Millions who are volunteers .Now that it has been raised can it be clarified what is the benefit to the project of allowing PR/marketing professionals to openly edit Misplaced Pages particularly given the negative press for high profile cases.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 23:52, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I think that was answered in my letter to Mr. Wales. The benefit is that you can oversee and regulate them. But further than that, we are providing both education and guidance to the brands that come to us. I turned a brand down just an hour ago, because they want me to insert a link to an article on their website. I explained WP:RS and why their corporate website is not a reliable source. A PR agency editing in the open will be less likely to cut corners, trample rules, or cause problems that require volunteer time to fix. If one is underground, there's less incentive not to. I'm Tony Ahn (talk) 02:27, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

We tend to lump all paid editors together, and discuss the issue as "paid editors are good/bad". The problem is that it isn't that simple. There's a difference between, for example, freelance paid editors who only edit to make short-term profits without an ongoing relationship to their clients; paid editors who are professional marketing agencies who have a vested interest in ensuring that there is no negative impact on their clients; internal employees who claim no particular WP expertise but are required to do so by their employer; experienced editors doing a bit of paid editing on the side; and people paid to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of an issue. When Tony talks of overseeing people, you can, at best, only oversee those willing to be overseen - and at best that will be the paid marketing professionals who understand the rules enough to want to be seen to do things above board. Many of the others will always cause problems, and will always want to be underground, as they can achieve more by using socks and editing on the edge of policy. - Bilby (talk) 07:19, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I completely agree. I'm Tony Ahn (talk) 13:12, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Call it keeping the ship afloat by plugging the leaks (unbalanced paid editing). It will be an ongoing and long-term job. So why allow the gushing split in the hull (DYK) to remain unreconstructed? DYK is a quick and dirty way of getting usually poor material onto the main page. It is an anachronism that should be redesigned promptly to reduce its attraction as an easy ride to millions of hits. It is an invitation to commercial spruikers to stretch the boundaries of our COI policies. Tony (talk) 12:16, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Well, to be fair, we're not talking about millions of hits. My best effort got about 17,000. I'm all for a redesign if it improves the quality of the material being presented. I'm Tony Ahn (talk) 13:12, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Don't confuse "hits" with "views." That's 17,000 click-throughs, magnitudes more read the hook and were exposed to the subject. Carrite (talk) 13:55, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
• Tony, you seem to be downplaying the value of those 17,000 hits here. On your own website you say "In six hours, Daphne’s entry racked up over 17,000 views, giving her a new kind of international exposure she has never had before. Her entry was the 4th most viewed “Did You Know?” section article in the month of June, viewed more than 955 other articles that also were featured in the same section". And in a blog post on the subject's site, she says (although I suspect you actually wrote): "I reached a market I never thought I could. You could only imagine what kind of readership you’ll get once you appear on Misplaced Pages’s main page. It was overwhelming". Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:03, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• You are implying that I'm saying 17,000 isn't beneficial. It was very beneficial. What I'm actually doing is disagreeing with User:Tony1, who said DYK was "an easy ride to millions of hits." I'm just keeping the discussion factual and not let exaggerations run wild. I find it troubling that when someone ascribes a wildly inflated number to me, and I correct it with a factual number, I'm labeled as "downplaying." I think your bias is clear. And your suspicions about who wrote it are wrong. Have you seen other entries on her blog? She's been keeping one for a long time. Nobody writes for her. But thank you for making a baseless and unprovable insinuation. That's classy. For the record, when you do good work for clients, especially when you do it for free, some want to do something to repay the favor (especially in the Philippines, where networks and friendships are valued differently than the USA). Sometimes that means they refer new business to you. Other times it means they thank you on their website, or twitter, or elsewhere. But when that happens, it isn't requested, nor scripted. I'm Tony Ahn (talk) 22:15, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Tony, this is a discussion, not a WP article - I don't have a "bias", I have a point of view. I didn't "insinuate" anything - I just said that I thought you were downplaying the value of 17,000 hits. Your own words suggest that those hits are quite valuable to you and your clients. But as someone else already pointed out, that 17,000 refers to the number of people who actually viewed that DYK article. Tony1's comment about millions of hits likely refers to the number of people who view the main page of WP on any given day and therefore might see one of your DYK items. As for the authorship of that blog post (and this one which is very similar) if you say you didn't write them, that's fine, I guess my impression was wrong. No need to get defensive. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:55, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• The word bias exists outside of Misplaced Pages. Bias n. Prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair. MY point of view is that you do have a bias, as defined here. Insinuate v. Suggest or hint something negative in an indirect or unpleasant way. By saying you suspected that I wrote Daphne's blog post, you were suggesting something negative, in an indirect way. Be aware that when you do that with me, you're not casting aspersions on an anonymous username. You're casting aspersions on an identified person and his business reputation. I can think of no better reason to get defensive, since I'm defending something real. If we stick to the issues of DYK and paid editing in a more abstract sense, then you get my opinions and whatever help I can provide. If I perceive that you attack me, especially impugning my reputation for honesty and transparency, then I defend me. If User:Tony1 used hits when he meant views, then that was his error. But I had to clear it up for everyone who might not draw a distinction. What we know is that they day it went on the main page, the main page got 146,508,659 views. It was up for a quarter of the day (6 hours), which makes it safe to say that the DYK hook and her thumbnail was seen by millions of people. The link to her article got just over 17,000 clicks. The client was very happy about the exposure. No exaggeration, no downplaying. That's what happened. Now I suggest we get back to discussing the relevant issues if there is anything left to be discussed. Personally, I think all parties know where each other stands on the paid editing question, although there is no resolution in sight. The DYK issue now needs some sort of suggested revision or overhaul if the community wants introduce more objectivity into the selection process, a move I wholeheartedly support. I'm Tony Ahn (talk) 00:36, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Tony, after reading that blog post I formed the impression that you had written it (and the very similar one to which I linked). If that impression was wrong -- and you say it was -- then I stand corrected, but I was not trying to cast aspersions on you. It seemed to be a reasonable conclusion to me and I'm not sure why you think it is in any way negative. If you had written them, what would be wrong with that? I hesitate to point out that you are making a false distinction between "views" and "hits" - one could just as easily say there were "millions of hits on the main page" as "millions of views of the main page". What you are actually differentiating is how many people clicked the link to see the article that you had written for your client (17,000 hits or views) versus the number of people who may have seen the DYK on the main page. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 02:51, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you for the correction. I don't know why it would be a reasonable conclusion that I was ghostwriting for my clients on their blogs, lauding my own performance, without any disclosure, but okay. I find it negative because at best such a practice is opaque, at worst it borders on dishonest. Regarding the hits/views issue, "hits" are not physically confined to parts of a page. A hit means the page was loaded/visited. Not everybody who registers a main page "hit" actually views DYK. That's the distinction. More specifically, User:Tony1 said " is an anachronism that should be redesigned promptly to reduce its attraction as an easy ride to millions of hits." How a section of a page can be a gateway to hits on that same page (the main page) is beyond me. I think he meant views, which would be accurate (a "view" meaning that on a heat map it would register that a visitor glanced at DYK). It was important to me to make the distinction to keep the uninformed from thinking that my clients' articles are accessed "millions" of times. Journalists who are not Misplaced Pages editors/experts are following this discussion and I am writing with that in mind. Last thing I need is for a news article to come out saying that I get my clients millions of hits by putting them on the main page. I think that my point has been made and that everyone reading understands the metrics and what they mean. I'm Tony Ahn (talk) 08:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Gibraltar pay for placement on the home page

Despite past complains, the community appears incapable of preventing the commercial use of Misplaced Pages's home page to promote Gibraltar tourism. See and . What do you think is the next course of action? As I mentioned, some of the editors appear defiant after being criticised for participating in the play-for-play scheme (willingly or unwittingly), and are making a point by continuing to festoon our home page with Gibraltar related topics. This should not continue. Jehochman 18:09, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The Gibraltar DYKs will probably continue for as long as someone appears to be bothered by them. I am sure that some of the people most vocal about these DYKs are involved because they think that it bothers the folks at Wikipediocracy. It's personal. There's no way to fix this without dealing with the people issues. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:33, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Given the History of Gibraltar TFA request has probably the highest level of participation I've ever seen at TFAR, and given that support for running it exceeds 90%, I don't think this is a case of the community being incapable of stopping Gibraltar topics from appearing, but rather a very small, highly vocal subset of it being incapable of stopping it. The community itself doesn't have an issue with it. As far as the DYK entry goes, I would really like to see the number of Gibraltar related DYKs this year compared against something like baseball player DYKs. Resolute 18:45, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Some figures: since January there have been 24 Gibraltar-related DYKs on the Main Page, but 18 of these ran in January and February, and 17 of them were nominated in 2012 but were held up by up to 3 months because of a broken review process. The high frequency in those months is because of one of DYK's periodic drives to clear a backlog of old nominations. In the entirety of this year so far, only 10 Gibraltar-related DYKs have been nominated. The figures for the last three months are: March - 2 nominated, 0 ran; April - 2 nominated, 3 ran; May - 3 nominated, 2 ran. In other words, we have had just 5 Gibraltar-related DYKs running in those three months. Nobody is writing these articles to spite Wikipediocracy - they are primarily being written for Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Gibraltar, which is and always has been an entirely uncontentious WikiProject. Prioryman (talk) 18:51, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

And to answer the other half of the question, I count 33 DYKs from March 1 to May 31 that relate to baseball, almost exclusively North American. Why are we allowing Major League Baseball to spam our main page this way? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? Resolute 19:02, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Major League Baseball is a commercial activity, isn't it? What a shocking display of promotion! Prioryman (talk) 19:06, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

And Bach cantatas (and related stuff). How many of those? Fortunately we seem to have run out of Governors of Kentucky. Johnbod (talk) 19:11, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I count 22 DYKs by a single contributor dealing with the Indonesian film industry (motion pictures, actors, and awards) for the March 1 to May 31 time period. Just imagine how many additional tickets were sold for all those films from the 1930s because of "promotion" on Misplaced Pages. --Allen3  22:22, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Don't forget the mushrooms! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• I don't think the mycologists have been paying for exposure. Gibraltar has. Jehochman 11:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• That is quite an important point that I hope people will not gloss over. There's an obvious quid pro quo here regarding what amounts to advertising for Gibraltar's tourism board. Tarc (talk) 12:36, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
• Jehochman, can you explain why what drives Gibraltar or mycologists is relevant in any way, provided the article is reviewed by non-involved editors? --Cyclopia 14:03, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not alleging non-neutrality of the articles. They are nice articles, well-written. I'm complaining (as a marketing professional) that the home page of Misplaced Pages is being abused for sub rasa advertising. If you don't get my point, please come to my talk page and I'll explain it in more detail. Jehochman 14:13, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• If the articles are nice and well written there is nothing to complain. That's the point. --Cyclopia 16:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• No, that's not true. It would not at all be okay if the New York Yankees paid a group of Misplaced Pages editors to write about the Yankees and boost that content to the home page, day after day, for the purpose of increasing their ticket sales. Jehochman 18:47, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• So it is not okay to have (your words) "nice articles, well-written" if they're paid by the NY Yankees (or whoever you want) because...? --Cyclopia 19:16, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Given your posts on my talk page, I rephrase: it is not okay to have (your words) "nice articles, well-written" on the frontpage if they're paid by the NY Yankees (or whoever you want) because...? --Cyclopia 20:03, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Jehochman, the next course of action is obvious. When you are losing a "battle" against a multitude of editors whom have pretty solid reasons for the promotion of a particular article to TFA, the loser turns to Jimmy's talk page to try and drum up support from others who are moar interested in the dramuh than in participating to the project. Good luck with recruiting editors to your battleground cause. Russavia (talk) 19:35, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Mr. Russavia, I have a long history here and have never been sanctioned as a battle editor. I don't care if we have lots of Gibraltar articles. I'm not telling editors they can't write about that topic. My concern is that the home page of Misplaced Pages is extremely valuable Internet real estate, and it should not be for sale. All topics should have an equal opportunity to appear. Gibraltar's paid marketing campaign to increase tourism could use Google AdWords, Bing, AdRoll or one of many other ad networks. They can use public relations to promote their tourism. What they must not do is utilize such a campaign to put their stuff on Misplaced Pages's home page with an unnatural frequency. Jehochman 13:57, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I do not personally see the TFA as a big deal as we aren't going to see a whole bunch of those popping up every day and I think the Gibraltar stuff at DYK is nowhere near as bad as it was last year. We are probably at the point where most of the restrictions should be relaxed, though I think a limit on the number of DYK entries would be good to keep. The issue was that a group of editors were pushing a whole bunch of Gibraltar content onto the main page in a very short period of time and the organization spearheading the project was a PR firm working with Gibraltar's government. As it stands, we don't have that much of an issue anymore. We are basically at the end of it.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

"Nowhere near as bad". Last year it was terrible beyond awful. This year it's just an ordinary bad. We should stop all Gibraltar content from appearing on the home page until the past glut has been diluted by time. Once balance has been re-established, an occasional Gibraltar article could appear, but that should be very rare—because Gibraltar is just a tiny, tiny bit of "all human knowledge". One editor pointed out that the entire population of Gibraltar could invite a friend and they'd all fit in Yankee Stadium for one of the 81 games per year played there, and there are 30 such baseball teams. That's the relative unimportance of Gibraltar. I would not oppose a new guideline stating that topics should not be over-represented on the home page, including mushrooms and Indonesian films. However, there is a very big difference between editorial fascination with a niche topic and the cynical use of Misplaced Pages by paid propagandists. Our response should differ accordingly. Jehochman 13:49, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Do you have any plausible evidence that the current TFA has been written or pushed by "cynical paid propagandists"? As for the comparison, you compare permanent residents with temporary visitors. And the importance of Gibraltar is indeed quite high for such a small place, because of its strategic position and long history. The world would not be significantly different if the Steelers won or loose the 1998 superbowl to the Freezers (substitute teams and dates as necessary), but it would be very different if Tariq ibn Ziyad had looked at the rock and decided that he did not want it, or if Franco had decided that he wanted it enough to try. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes. See Gibraltarpedia for the evidence of money used to manipulate Misplaced Pages's editorial community. Granted, population and size are not the sole determinants of importance, but I think London is a good bit more important to World History than Gibraltar, but it's appearing on the home page less often than Gibraltar. Jehochman 14:11, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. But you mention a past event that may be reason for a certain level of suspicion, not concrete evidence for the current case. You have a point about London vs. Gibraltar, but you also keep confusing "cheap" processes like DYK with featured articles. London is not an FA. History of Gibraltar is. If London becomes featured, it can (and will, I bet) get onto the main page. And, picking January 2012 at random, Privy Council of the United Kingdom and Press Gang are arguably London-related, so it does appear on the main page. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I detect forum shopping. What should really not continue is people looking at the agendas instead of looking at articles. We could have a Gibraltar-related article every day for a year on our homepage, if it is a good, unbiased article, no matter if SPECTRE paid billions to do it. --Cyclopia 19:41, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

...especially is SPECTRE is paying Blofeld for it, but the actual articles are written by Moneypenny in her spare time. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:56, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• On a related note, can I ask that for all future instances of this endlessly recurring discussion, people are not instructed to move away from the horse carcasses as has been done thus far, but instead should co-operate in storing them for future use. Horse carcasses have been used for food in critical moments of some of the more than a dozen sieges of Gibraltar, so it would seem sensible to store them up in readiness for the next siege. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you to the editors, especially the regulars who've already expressed their opinions plentitudinously. The reason I posted here is that I really wanted to hear Jimmy's opinion. As for TFA discussion, I am glad to have spurred increased participation on that page. Jehochman 00:29, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I don't think this could have happened six years ago. Then, WP had high enough participation that it was more difficult for a small group of editors to take over an area in WP to push a particular agenda. One of the weaknesses of a crowdsourced effort is what can take place when the participant numbers decline. Cla68 (talk) 00:41, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I count at least twenty-eight registered editors who have commented favourably at the TFA request mentioned above - in addition, several more of the authors writing content about Gibraltar have not (yet) commented there. Is thirty or so editors really "a small group" taking over? Seems an odd idea. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:12, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I was referring to the DYK issues. Actually, I personally don't mind what took place with Gibraltar and the DYK section of the main page, because it helps show how broken of an idea Misplaced Pages is and how poorly it is administered. Cla68 (talk) 05:16, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

It's a natural progression for any community--cool when it starts, then square people take over and the cool people go some place else. Who knows, maybe it will become retro and the cool people will return some day. Jehochman 11:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah, the old Golden Age belief. Been here a long time have you? Feeling jaded? Don't spoil it for those who aren't, please.

As for "how broken of an idea Misplaced Pages is", yes indeed it is only "a small group of editors" who believe that, though whether, in Cla68's words, that small group of editors is trying to "take over", is open to opinion. (Cue User:Wnt.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:52, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• The above comparison of Major League Baseball and Gibraltar made me do a little research. "Did You Know" that if every resident of Gibraltar wanted to attend a Major League Baseball game at, say, my favorite stadium, at the same time, they could all fit? Actually, most of them (though not all of them) could each bring a friend who does not live in Gibraltar, and they'd still all fit. That's one game, of the 81 played at Yankee Stadium each season. And the Yankees are only one-thirtieth of Major League Baseball.

All seriousness aside, as someone who is not on any "side" of anything on Misplaced Pages, it really does seem to me that there has been some amount of abuse of the opportunity to place items on the main page regarding Gibraltar. Maybe that is also true of Indonesia. Maybe that is also true of Major League Baseball. I don't know. But I don't think one abuse excuses another. It may also be that the motivations behind the abuse in one case are different from the motivations in other cases, and maybe that makes a difference. I do know that the Treaty of Utrecht's 400th anniversary is coming up in only 100 years, and that seems like a fine time for an article about it -- well, not it, actually, but about a bunch of historical events, including it -- to be Today's Featured Article. Of course, if it is there on the 300th anniversary instead, Misplaced Pages will probably survive anyway. Neutron (talk) 04:48, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• As barely involved observer, one can see that whatever its merits the "solution" that "all Gibraltar related content is under main page interdict" has failed and is continuing to fail. So, saying the same arguments over again and proposing the same solution is just not worth it. If one wants reform rather than the same fruitless discussions over again, it would probably be best to concentrate on regulation of main page contests going forward. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:12, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Do you think people would agree to a policy like this? "Topics should not appear on the home page with a frequency that is excessive given their relative importance." If we have had three mushroom TFA's already this year, we should not have any more for a while. Misplaced Pages will be a better place if there is diversity of home page content, rather than these obsessions with particular topics, especially when those obsessions are fueled by contests, outside influences, or monies paid to editors. I would be happy to deal with this in a general way that is not connected to any particular topics. Jehochman 14:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Rather doubt that the nebulous standard of importance will be definable or agreeable -- to a flea circus man all things flea are important. But "no material created for contests" or some refinement thereof, could work. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:30, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Everyone has their own things that tick them off, and excessive coverage of a place doesn't bother me nearly as much as excessive coverage of commercial products (especially certain video game franchises) or photos of nobodies contributed by publicists as "featured photos" (If it's a featured photo, how come the only reason I'd ever click on it is to see who is abusing our process?).

In the case of Gibraltar, how about an experiment - why don't you critics come up with one of your own - something that showcases the Spanish claims on the area, crime in the region, something they won't like, and see what happens? :) Wnt (talk) 14:34, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Given all your crying on the TFAR page is generating little support, I doubt this attempted proposal would work either, Jehochman. Ironically, your suggestion wouldn't even work, becuase I believe there has never been a Gibraltar-related TFA so you can not honestly make a claim for overrepresentation in the first place. Resolute 14:37, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• TFA bothers me very little. I am much more concerned about DYK, which is much easier to abuse. Jehochman 18:49, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• I would support a proposal to take DYK off the main page, but we all know how far that would go. At the same time, I would support a proposal to limit TFA's to subjects of some "importance", however that might be defined. All other things being equal, the History of Gibraltar would certainly qualify. My favorite recent example of one that would not qualify is the TFA from a few months ago about a video game that was never released -- not one that has not yet been released, but one that was "canceled" and apparently will never be released. I could not believe that such a thing was getting "top billing" on the main page. But I also know how far that proposal is likely to go. Neutron (talk) 21:14, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Jehochman is lying and bullying

Will Jimmy Wales say something about "Gibraltar pay for placement on the home page"?

I believe Jehochman was looking for a response from Jimmy (rather than the same old battle of the bands), so I thought I'd start a new subsection for that. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 22:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, I just wanted to hear what Jimmy thought, really, not start a huge community discussion. To have a community discussion we can all go to the village pump, and I think it would be useful to discuss measures to avoid contests (or corporate sponsored article drives) from distorting the frequency of various topics appearing on the home page. We need to solve the general problem, not beat up on Gibraltar, a specific example. Jehochman 23:16, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I`m from Twitter

Hello. Jimmy Wales. I`m Altostratus (or leedors). I meet you at South korea, Seoul, restaurant Eoll (얼) May 28th, 2012. Nice met to you. So, My asking to you is criteria of consensus what Jimmy Wales`s thinking. See Also Here section no.7

If there is one proposal guildline, although that is proposal, (Korean) wikipedia community are very often quote that guildline and quoting behavior also never negative from community and generally positive. In this case, this proposal guildline recognized Concensus? Without extra discussion about raise to guildline. I saying that proposal guildline is Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Altostratus (talk • contribs) 21:16, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Difficult to follow Korean discussions: The translations of Korean text processed by Google Translate are still nearly unintelligible, and while "User:Altostratus" does appear as "Leedors" in the text, many other phrases are scrambled, and a main issue is translated as "criteria of a gun" where the word "gun" in English typically refers to a device, such as a "shotgun" or "handgun" or even a "nailgun" when talking about roofing or construction. I suggest that policy changes in the Korean Misplaced Pages will need to rely on internal ideas about the guidelines, as most English-speaking people will be unable to offer suggestions due to limits in the language-translation abilities. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:57, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you

Jimbo, thank you for your stewardship and guidance of the great project we call Misplaced Pages. While sometimes controversial, I think your vision and steadying hand are ultimately appreciated by the majority of the community. I believe everyone deserves a thank-you for the good things they do, so here's yours. Powers 01:00, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

User is blocked for one year!

Hi Jimbo, I am a friend of Rich Farmbrough who is a great contributor on out site, but he was blocked for 1 year which is unheard of in the history of Misplaced Pages. What he did is a couple of useful contributions that the AC decided to be malicious, just because he did one mistake. Either way, why should I tell you the whole story if you can read it here. The conversation and uproar about his block continues to this day with ArbCom ignoring everything! Please read his talkpage for more info. Since you are a founder of this project I believe you have time and will to intervene. If you will help him, I will surrely help you!--Mishae (talk) 02:18, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

First, on the one hand, a one-year block is not unheard of. It is the usual length of a site ban by the ArbCom. Second, on the other hand, I have not researched the case in detail, but there does appear to be reason to think that the block was done precipitously and without consideration, and should be appealed to the ArbCom review panel, or the full ArbCom. Has a notice of this discussion been posted to User talk:Sandstein? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:32, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, here is what I found: diff where there is no mention of despite it happened in March of 2013, and then we have diff that confuses him with another user and thats pretty much it. However, a comment from Jimmy Wales himself regarding this issue will be of welcome.--Mishae (talk) 02:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Rich Farmbrough has been a problematic editor for a very long time, though some might argue that he has contributed a lot. The problem with Rich on one level is that he uses automated tools with little regard for the "collateral damage" that results. The more fundamental problem is that he substitutes his judgment for the consensus of the community, as expressed in many discussions about his editing. As this is a collaborative project, this unwillingness or inability to accept restrictions imposed through consensus processes made the one year block necessary, in my view. The situation is sad, but the relevant question is why Rich seems unable to control himself? Cullen Let's discuss it 04:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Rich Farmbrough#Amendments by motion for the crux of the present situation. To my eyes, the real mistake here lies in ArbCom's decision to respond to Rich's breach of sanctions (two weeks after the case closed) by imposing editing conditions so broad as to be almost certain to be breached, and whose enforcement appears prima facie ludicrous. Instead, Rich has mysteriously been transformed from an unresponsive admin who responds poorly to criticism to a martyr of unresponsive admins, ut supra. Choess (talk) 04:54, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• In general terms, not having reviewed the situation at hand, I think we give far too much latitude to productive contributors that have consistently failed to address problems that people bring up with them repeatedly. This is not just a Misplaced Pages phenomenon, I see it often in many Internet forums. If wider society worked this way, we'd be giving people a pass on dozens of minor crimes simply because they were a productive member of society. I don't think that's sustainable in the long run. Gigs (talk) 13:29, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

In wider society, you don't enforce minor workplace issues by firing productive employees. The boss really just doesn't care how many times his best salesman stole your food from the office refrigerator, sorry - or at least, his skill as a boss is measured by how good he is at arranging a way that you end up keeping your food somewhere else. Wnt (talk) 14:25, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Also in a wider society, employees that are serially semi-competent who flagrantly disregard instructions from their boss are terminated with cause and are not allowed back to work at all. So which is it here? Carrite (talk) 14:56, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

They are then free to find some other job, it's not that the boss goes to some court which imposes a topic ban on the employee doing a similar job elsewhere, the employee refuses, ends up in court and is then senteced to a year in jail. While what Gigs says about other internet forums is true, this isn't a good thing and society certainly shouldn't and doesn't work this way. If you are going to be treated like second class citizen, you will not accept that and one way or another, you will eventually be booted out. Websites where this happens don't do well on the long term (physicsforums is a good example, I was booted out from there a few years ago, and it has become a lot less prominent in the last year or so due to their stupid policies that are easily gamed by the Mods there, making the website primarily a personal playground for the Mods instead of about Physics). Here on Misplaced Pages, the ArbCom system isn't working well if the sanctions become more part of the problem than the solution after a while. Count Iblis (talk) 16:50, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• What we are seeing here is The War of the Dwarves and the Gnomes. Dwarves are editors who work mainly on content, and typically put a lot of thought into each edit; gnomes are editors who work mainly on form, and tend to make large numbers of edits doing things like changing a - to a –. The problem arises when gnomes use automated tools to generate edits that sometimes cause content errors. Because dwarves value information more than appearance, and gnomes the reverse, they can easily come into conflict. Rich is a Supergnome, and the comparatively small fraction of errors generated by his huge volume of automated edits ended up costing the dwarves who maintain articles an enormous amount of time. Eventually, after repeated failed attempts to rein him in, the outraged dwarves banded together to ban him. Looie496 (talk) 17:46, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Thats the thing, the people are happy when someone gets blocked. The admins don't have sensuality sometimes to understand what the editor is trying to do. Saying that blocks are ment to be preventive no punitive is another missconception here, Its hard to assume good faith after someone is blocked for even a day because it makes you feel being prejudiced against. I tried to tell admins that because I have a dissability I sometimes edit against consensus, because I don't understand it and I don't see it. People on the other hand, started accusing me of making a claim about it! Russian Misplaced Pages is the prime example, I tried to speak to folks there too, but even if they do call an admin a dick for example, they get warned once, and then they get blocked for a second offence, no matter how small bit it is...--Mishae (talk) 18:17, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
    • "Sensuality" ? I do not think that word means what you think it means. As for the rest of this, I really don't put much weight on editors who advocate on other editor's behalf. Rich is a big boy, if he wants to appeal his block, he knows the way in. Tarc (talk) 18:37, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
      • Maybe I ment something like that admins and ArbCom are playing the role of big dadies who want to fuck everything around them. Somebody told me on Russian Misplaced Pages that its a trend. Once you get to adminship you can pretty much do whatever. In result, it ends with abuse of power. Now for the "rest of it" is my example of how it was with me, and that its the same trent here, its called comparison. Now for user Cullen comment: So, as I can tell by your post that you are against Rich as a user, but I don't see it as fair. First of all, calling him a "problematic editor", I wont allow it. Second, I am problematic probably too, but you don't know do you? Maybe you are problematic too, but how do I know that for a fact? Thats right, I don't! As for Tarc's comment above: Rich is maybe a big boy but he can't appeal his block as mentions on his talkpage. His statement was that admin named Sandstein is denying his request! Maybe he doesn't do it right, but thats what his talkpage says. As far as user's Looie496 comment goes, (I partially answered it above, but decided to come back to it). You see guys, think of ArbCom as NKVD troika that decides who to punish and for what reason... Keep in mind that the verdict was in favour no matter how much the accused was pleaded. Now, I know that Misplaced Pages isn't a court, but here it looks like it. Because see, most admins try to ignore the good edits by any user and try to find as much bad ones so that they can block him. Which brings all this discussion to another point: Even though that Misplaced Pages isn't a democracy, is it in any form a fascist or socialist dictatorship? In my opinion, because of this and nemerous other cases it begins to look like it. However, its just my opinion folks, your thoughts?--Mishae (talk) 20:28, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
        • Now, let me continue with my comparison. Again, I will use Russian Misplaced Pages as a prime example, since I seen many evils among admins and ArbCom there. When I was blocked by an admin there, I was astounded to find out how "happy" people were there, when someone gets blocked. I go to admin forums and I see people screaming for indefinite block there, and, as soon as someone comes up and suggests something else, much less punitive way, they "gag" him. At first I thought its only their Misplaced Pages problem, but now I see the same trend here too. Instead of including a user into a society we isolate him with blocks that majority of people believe are not punitive. In reality they are, and anyone who believe otherwise I would suggest to look over this "illusion" because its a double standard here.--Mishae (talk) 20:04, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
          • First I want to state I also agree the block against Rich and the sanction that Arbcom gave him is ridiculous and a massive net loss to the pedia. He and his bots did more edits in one day than any other user did in a month. The one year block that he was given borders on admin abuse IMO and was far in excess of any wrong that Rich did. He was trying to contribute, how dare he! As for the sanction itself. Its a complete joke and was what really showed to me that the Arbcom as we know it today is more of a hindrance and problem than the users they are trying to "protect" the pedia from. I really think that Choess hit the nail on the head above. The restriction was written so poorly and so broadly that it really leaves the indication that the Arbcom intended for Rich to be blocked and then wrote the sanction in such a way that he wouldn't possibly be able to meet the expectations. As written, it could be argued that even using the four tildes for his signature would constitute automation. Bar none one of the worst decisions I have seen Arbcom make on this site and there have been several. I'm not going to rehash all the problem with the case because frankly I think don't think Jimbo has the power to do anything about it and even if he did, I don't think he would. So really this discussion is pointless and Misplaced Pages will continue to lose out on needed edits every day until Arbcom comes to their senses which is incredibly unlikely. Kumioko (talk) 21:45, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
            • Don't lose hope, as a founder, he should at least come here and comment on it, if he have a piece of conscience that is, which I don't yet deny in him. However, if he decides to go with ArbCom, I will encourage every editor to live Misplaced Pages and spread the word to others on how unfair and fascistic the project is. And no, I am not threatening ArbCom or Jimbo, or anyone else, just try to reson with people and the founder. Another thing to mention, I am glad that Misplaced Pages have some users to whom I come for helkp and whom I can trust, unfortunatelly such users are in huge minority here, and majority is made out of such users and admins like the ones that you all see above, or the ones that I met: Rkitko, PamD and Stemonitis. Maybe I shouldn't mention their names, but the attrocities that they commited are great too, starting from harrasing and ending with demands on ban of such users as myself and Rich. I should once again remind folks here that Misplaced Pages is a colaborative project and blocks don't prevent damage, as they intend to. Further more, I need to remind folks here that if the founder wont reply to my inquiry, I therefore will assume that the founder is just a greedy person that cares only about himself, and rumor will spread about Misplaced Pages being just a hostile site (that is still good to read though). :)--Mishae (talk) 04:10, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Status of edit-conflict problems

After months of analysis, I see the focus about the numerous edit-conflict problems has concentrated into several Bugzilla bug reports about various problems logged on 6 March 2013, plus earlier bugs such as Template:Bugzilla. I have joined Bugzilla to help re-focus the discussions, which months ago had been sounding like "Plato and Socrates" discussing whether Honor is more important than Justice on Tuesday (or perhaps Verifiability versus Truth on Monday!), and the <<<eyes glaze over>>>. For example, some think 2 editors should be prevented from both prepending a message-box at the top of an article, because...? Hence, all the edit-conflict bugs need to be considered together, within Bugzilla as a set, and then pinpoint the changes which will resolve them as a set, rather than mulling over what-will-effect-what and just wondering. Technically, I think every edit-save must do a database page-level read-lock (as a test-and-set operation), then update, and finally unlock the page, to allow the next edit-save to read/update the latest revision, but perhaps the read-lock could be triggered only for large pages, rather than small talk-pages or stub articles. Many of the current edit-conflicts seem to have treated different revisions as being the latest revision to update (hence, a "one-second" read-lock is needed). More later. -Wikid77 (talk) 02:26, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Expanding the MediaWiki diff/merge utility diff3: As I feared, the typical MediaWiki processing of edit-conflicts seems to be handled by the famous UNIX-style (GNU) utility "diff3" which runs diff or text merge of 3 files (3 revisions) together (accessed as $wgDiff3 = "/usr/bin/diff3"), and so the developers would be reluctant to go beyond, as if programmers had embedded a complex tool as, "There are update conflicts in the table processed as an Excel spreadsheet". Fortunately, with diff3 being GNU-sourced software, we can write our own extension as a more sophisticated variation of diff3, and I am expecting some computer scientists have already discussed some new algorithms, or we will develop our own to reduce the edit-conflict sections where diff3 currently craters. However, I am already seeing 2 different conflict-resolution paths: when 2 sentences are added at the same line, they should append as FIFO order ("first-in, first-out"), but if one user inserts a new "==Header==" section, then the order should reverse as LIFO ("last-in, first-out"). Hence, if a user quickly inserts a new thread "==Thread==" in a section, then the 2nd user's addition would go before that new thread (LIFO order) rather than after it as would have been the case for 2 sentences added at the same line. The decision for how to resolve an edit-conflict is then not a "context-free" rule, but rather changes direction depending on what is contained in the added text. If that solution becomes too complex, for adjusting the relative line numbers, then all same-line additions could be auto-stacked upward as LIFO order, to ensure a 2nd reply does not auto-append into a newly-added sub-thread or section. At least, we are seeing direct solutions to the conflict problems, in more detail. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:10, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Interesting case of "verifiability not truth"?

I know you like these. See Misplaced Pages:ANI#Article Vera Renczi continuously vandalized. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 22:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I think there was a discussion on your talk page not so long ago about an encyclopedia of crime seeded with bogus information. I wonder if that may have something to do with it... 86.121.18.17 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• "Verifiability Not Truth" is one of the biggest blunders of Misplaced Pages's official doctrine. The standard for inclusion actually, in real life, is verifiability and veracity. Wrong information is wrong information and has no "right" to be perpetuated at WP just because some so-called "reliable source" blundered first. Fix it and move along; if somebody attempts to restore wrong information, fight it. Accuracy is the main thing, the only thing. Carrite (talk) 02:36, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Carrite, but from experience I can tell you there are a huge number of "Misplaced Pages rules are laws" editors who do take Verifiability Not Truth at face value (and interpret it literally with no exemptions). They tend to bully till they get their way because.... well policy does state it. They don't subscribe to the view that if am otherwise "reliable" source got information wrong then in that case the source is not reliable anymore. To them a source is either reliable or not in all cases. I see this at many articles, and it has to go to RS/N quite a bit.Camelbinky (talk) 03:03, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo

Jimbo, you look like Hugh Jackman to me. Albacore (talk) 04:09, 12 June 2013 (UTC)