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Comments

Coat of arms pic in article has changed. Is it correct? Name suggests it's a vatican coa rather than the arms of the holy see. --OscarTheCat 07:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I just reverted it to the red shield version, since it's the official blazon according to here. Pmadrid 07:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested undo of move

It has been proposed in this section that Coat of arms of the Holy See be renamed and moved to Coat of arms of Vatican City. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Coat of arms of the Holy See → Coat of arms of Vatican City – The illustrated coat of arms has been officially declared to be the coat-of-arms (in Italian, stemma) of Vatican City State. Sources deny that it is the Holy See's coat-of-arms.

What was presented as grounds for moving this article from "Coat of arms of the State of Vatican City" to "Coat of arms of the Holy See" was the heading "Coat of Arms of the Holy See and of the State of Vatican City" in an English-language news service that does not state that the two are identical. The Italian text of the same news service, which is presumably the original, speaks of the "coat of arms" (stemma) of Vatican City, but with regard to the Holy See speaks instead of its emblema (emblem). Both the English translation and the original Italian give two distinct illustrations, of which it can be reasonably presumed that the first concerns the Holy See and the second the Vatican City State. The first is displayed merely as an emblem, not on a shield as a coat of arms. While the Fundamental Law of Vatican City State of 2001 (which on this point repeated that of 1929) is a reliable source of the highest order for the statement that the coat of arms illustrated on that site and described in this Misplaced Pages article is the official coat of arms of the state, the source adduced gives no valid grounds for claiming that this coat of arms is also that of the Holy See - even less that Misplaced Pages should present it as principally the coat of arms of the Holy See.

Another website explicitly distinguishes between the two: "L’emblema della Santa Sede Apostolica e quello dello Stato della città del Vaticano non coincidono, essendo il primo il simbolo dell’ufficio del Romano Pontefice, capo della Chiesa Cattolica Romana, mentre il secondo è il simbolo proprio dell’entità politica e amministrativa. Anche se gli elementi caratteristici di entrambi sono le chiavi e la tiara papale (l’emblema della Santa Sede però non è inserito in uno scudo)." In English, "The emblem of the Holy Apostolic See and that of the Vatican City State are not identical, since the former is the symbol of the office of the Bishop of Rome, Head of the Roman Catholic Church, while the latter is the symbol proper to the political and administrative entity. Although the elements that characterize both are the keys and the papal tiara (the emblem of the Holy See is, however, not placed within a shield)."

Another study is more concise: "Hat der Heilige (Apostolische) Stuhl ein Wappen? Nein, aber ein Emblem" (Has the Holy (Apostolic) See a coat of arms? No, but it has an emblem). And it gives as source for its statement the German version of the very source that the mover of the Misplaced Pages article gave as grounds for making the move! It also criticizes as "heraldisch falsch" (heraldically wrong) the use of the emblem of the Holy See (without shield) on the button of the uniform of the Vatican City gendarmes: "Hier müsste das Staatswappen stehen" (Here there should be the coat of arms of the state).

That the coat of arms illustrated is that of Vatican City is clear. That it is the coat of arms of the Holy See as claimed in the renamed article is, to say the least, disputed. The move was wrong. Esoglou (talk) 11:12, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

The English article is titled "Coat of Arms of the Holy See and of the State of Vatican City", the title itself states they are one and the same by the use of and, especially since the article goes on to show but one coat of arms and one blazon, not two distinct and separate descriptions. The Italian article's title is different, yes, but the Italian article the goes on to describe only one coat of arms. The other articles you listed do differ from the Vatican's article, but those articles are not official. We should defer to the official article by the official source. Bellae artes (talk) 17:09, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

That is only your personal interpretation of what the English article means. The Italian article, as you rightly say, gives only one coat of arms (as does the English article) and speaks only of a coat of arms of Vatican City, not of the Holy See, while also giving an emblem (as, for some reason that you fail to explain, does the English article) and speaking only of an emblem of the Holy See, not of Vatican City State. The Italian article is, I would think, more not less official, than the English translation. More official still is article 20 of the Fundamental Law of the Vatican City State, which describes the coat of arms illustrated in the other sources as the coat of arms of the state (surely an official indication of the proper title for the Misplaced Pages article) with no suggestion that it is also the coat of arms of any other entity. The other cited sources that you wish to ignore are not primary official sources, but they are, in Misplaced Pages terms, reliable secondary sources; and they explicitly state (no question of personal interpretation here) that the Holy See has no coat of arms but has an emblem. Esoglou (talk) 20:01, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I am not interpreting the article, I merely quoted the title. The title disagrees with your assessment without needing any further interpretation. But if the title is not enough, there is further proof that both entities share the same arms--there is only one coat of arms being discussed in the article.

And the English article is official, because it is an official press release from the Vatican's Press Office. No where does the Vatican state one language is "more official" than another, so no, the Italian article is not better or more accurate in any way. Even so, the Italian article only discusses one coat of arms as well.

Secondary sources are fine, yes, but if a primary official source contradicts it then that makes those secondary sources unreliable.

Oh, and that Fundamental Law that describes the State of Vatican City’s arms wouldn’t mention the Holy See because because the Laws of the political entity have no bearing of the religious entity, so it is not surprising that there is no assigning of the See’s arms in the State’s laws. In any instance, the Fundamental Laws do not provide any facts to back up your argument, nr any information pertinent to this discussion, so it is only a distraction to even bring it up. Bellae artes (talk) 06:31, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Hello. Just commenting my experience in Flag of Vatican City. The Vatican is old fashioned and it works in Italian, not in English. The Italian version is always the original version, the others are just translations. The translations are sometimes incomplete, and the meaning of some sentences may be slightly changed from the original. In case of disagreement, the Italian version is always the correct one.

And a comment on sources. A press release is edited by the persons in charge of PR, it is very focused in immediate events, it may quote incorrectly other sources, or it may quote only the parts that support the press release. In my book there always low-quality sources. And they can't be edited after release to fix errors. When a press release disagrees with an article on the official website, the article should be given preference. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:58, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Enric Naval. Another indication of the non-authoritative character of such press releases is the statement in the English release that "the shield is surmounted by the tiara" - like the mitre above the escutcheon of the personal arms of Pope Benedict XVI or the tiara above those of his predecessors. This is quite evidently mistaken. The Italian text rightly says that the keys are surmounted by the tiara.

To the comment by Bellae artes that the Italian press release "only discusses one coat of arms", should be added: "which it identifies as that of the Vatican City State and does not attribute to the Holy See".

The coat of arms illustrated is certainly that of Vatican City State. Not even one reliable source claims it is also that of the Holy See. The Wikipedias in all the other languages call the illustrated coat of arms that of Vatican City, not of the Holy See. We are surely not going to say that they are all out of step except our English Misplaced Pages. Esoglou (talk) 11:45, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

The language of the Vatican is not Italian, it is Latin. If we are going on the non-authoritaveness of press releases as an argument to exclude the official English press release, why are you, Esoglou, quoting an the Italian press release as a source? Even if official press releases have minor errors in them (both the English and Italian versions do), they are still official and hold more weight than un-official website. So again, it is improper to somehow attribute the Italian press release as the supreme authority and use it to dismiss the English because that argument could easily be turned around to dismiss the Italian release.

Esoglou, I do not understand your issue with this, so let me try to break this down for you. The Italian press release is titled "Emblema della Santa Sede e Stemma dello Stato della Città del Vaticano", please not the use of the word "e", but goes on to describe only one emblem. So that makes that one device the emblem of the Holy See and the Vatican State. To back this up, the English version is titled "Coat of Arms of the Holy See and of the State of Vatican City", please not the use of the word "and", but also goes on to describe one coat of arms. This, again, means that both the Holy See and Vatican State are represented by the one coat of arms described in the article. The press releases in every language go on to describe one device, and each time label it the device of the Holy See and Vatican State; they are one and the same.

Also, what another Misplaced Pages does has no bearing here. Most other Wikipedias mirrored the English version, copying the titles and crudely translating the articles to help expand the article counts on other Wikipedias. So copying the title of this article over to other languages is hardly a reason to leave it as is. Also, Misplaced Pages can't be cited as a source on Misplaced Pages. Do you not know how Misplaced Pages creates the content of its articles? So you should understand that simply because you see it on Misplaced Pages doesn't make it true, and for that reason a person can't cite what he wrote in one artilce as evidence for what he writes in another article on Misplaced Pages.

Find a source from the Vatican that contradicts the Vatican's press release. Until then, the official stance from the Vatican is that the coat of arms of the Vatican State and the emblem used by the Holy See are one and the same device. Bellae artes (talk) 01:43, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

(I put two pictures in the article. The keys are reversed in the coats, so we need two different images, or one image where both coats appear). --Enric Naval (talk) 09:25, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

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