| Revision as of 16:28, 21 June 2012 editSceptre (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors79,209 edits →Manning← Previous edit | Revision as of 16:48, 21 June 2012 edit undoAndyTheGrump (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers54,018 edits →Manning: I will not allow Sceptre to violate Wikipedoa WP:BLP policy on my talk page in pursuit of his deranged and obnoxious campaign to 're-gender' Bradley Manning against his own express wishes.Next edit → | ||
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| == Manning == | == Manning == | ||
| This topic is closed. I will not allow Sceptre to violate Wikipedoa ] policy on my talk page in pursuit of his deranged and obnoxious campaign to 're-gender' Bradley Manning against his own express wishes. Sceptre, fuck of and troll elsewhere, you repulsive little lying bigot. ] (]) 16:48, 21 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ] Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like to remind you not to ] other editors, as you did on ]. Please comment on the content and not the contributors. Take a look at the ] to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. You are welcome to rephrase your comment as a civil criticism of the article. Thank you.<!-- Template:uw-npa1 --> (Whether S is a liar or not does not change the merits of the discussion, but only raises the discord into a level of uncivility. You can get your point across without saying "lies through his teeth", etc.) --] (]) 17:05, 19 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :One of the most frustrating aspects of Misplaced Pages is the way that ] gets cited when one objects to repeated personal attacks and/or gross misrepresentation of facts regarding the individuals our articles are about. Sceptre continues to falsely claim that Manning wishes to be identified as a female, in spite of clear evidence to the contrary. If Sceptre does not wish to be called a liar, he/she should stop telling lies. If Sceptre is unwilling to do this, he/she should be topic banned from such subjects. Misplaced Pages is not a forum for such bizarre soapboxing, particularly under the guise of supposedly 'supporting GLBT rights' while actually trampling such rights underfoot. Manning's gender identity is for Manning to determine, it isn't up to us to do it for him, end of story. ] (]) 17:21, 19 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| Andy, I quite agree that it's up to Manning to determine what his identity is and how to express it. As I pointed out, he's wearing the male Army Class A uniform and his attorneys are NOT going to change that. And I've reverted the ] edits that some soapboxers have added. But there's a difference between saying "that assertion if not correct/untrue/mistaken/whatever" and saying "You are a god-damn, son-of-a-bitch, snake-in-the-grass lying-through-your-teeth bastard." Better (and much more enjoyable) editing takes place when we are ].--] (]) 17:48, 19 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :It's interesting that we have reached a state where pointing out that someone is lying is a worse offense than lying. ] (]) 18:17, 19 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :: Not at all, Boris. WP has a conduct policy about ]. And I didn't say pointing out that someone is lying is any better or worse than lying itself. But saying ] to an editor does not help in improving any article. If inaccurate material is put into an ''article'', any other editor is free to remove it – from the article – IAW ]. I'm asking the Andy be less Grumpy when it comes to adding comments to talk pages. --] (]) 20:55, 19 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::Could you ask Sceptre to lie less when it comes to adding comments to talk pages?He/she keeps repeating the same falsehoods, in pursuit of some strange agenda or other, and it does nothing to improve the level of discourse, nor the content of articles... ] (]) 21:17, 19 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's unnecessarily harsh. Sceptre disagrees with you on a content matter, suggesting they are acting out of a desire to push an agenda given the nature of their complaint is likely to antagonise building a consensus further (to put it lightly: LGBT and queer folk don't much like accused of having ], usually it's a precursor to an unfounded accusation that children are to be indoctrinated into the "gay lifestyle" etc.) Sceptre strongly disagreeing with you doesn't mean they are lying or acting in bad faith. —] (]) 22:58, 19 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No Sceptre doesn't 'disagree with me on a content matter'. He/she repeatedly makes false claims about Manning's preferred gender identity, even after the most clear evidence has been given that Manning wishes to be identified as male. As for Sceptre's 'agenda', I honestly can't figure out what it is - it seems to have no connection whatsoever with any support for LGBT rights. To the contrary, it seems to be supporting an argument that sexual identity should be imposed by outsiders, on the flimsiest of evidence, with no regard for the right of the individual concerned to make their own decision. My position is clear: Misplaced Pages should play no part in this, and we should not be providing a platform for those who engage in such behaviour. ] (]) 23:13, 19 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Swing and a miss. The evidence that Manning identifies as female (to the point where gender identity disorder -- which requires cross-gender identification -- is being used in her trial) outweighs your argument that "He doesn't mind Bradley, therefore he's a man". So you should really stop imposing the idea that she identifies as male when she said, and I quote, " i wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn't for the possibility of having pictures of me ... plastered all over the world press ... as boy". ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 08:48, 21 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::It is wondrous that you ] so much about GID and that Manning has it. Problem is that the reliable sources do ''not'' so describe him. Misplaced Pages uses reliable sources for claims. Using a "female name" in online chats is ''exceedingly'' common, and has been ever since the first CB simulator on CompuServe. Cheers. ] (]) 12:04, 21 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The sources in the article attest to the fact that she was preparing to undergo actual transition had she not been arrested; she had publicly presented as female while on leave in Boston, she was in contact with doctors to medically transition, she had alerted her CO to her diagnosis, and she was found with leaflets about HRT when her room was searched. This hearing (maybe not the leaflets about HRT, but still). And of course GID requires cross-gender identification; it's like being diagnosed with MDD requires you to be depressed: it's extremely clear (sky-is-blue clear) from reading the DSM-IV-TR. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 12:37, 21 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::<sub> I could be found with booklets about spaceflight in my room if it was searched... clear evidence of an escape plan. <nod><nudge><wink> <span style="text-shadow:#c5C3e3 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em;">]</span>] 15:32, 21 Jun 2012 (UTC)</sub> | |||
| ::::::::::And a source where Manning is following the Benjamin Standards is where? BTW, I read DSM 3 and 4 - Manning does not appear to fit based on what the sources state. ] (]) 12:56, 21 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::We sources that Manning identified as female, and sources that Manning suffered from GID, in the form of her Article 32 hearing. That's above and beyond what we need under ] to change the pronouns to refer to her as a woman, which only requires identification with no expectation of a diagnosis or transition. Clearly, you're not a gender therapist, for one, because you'd know that a) they were called the ''Harry'' Benjamin Standards, b) they're now called the WPATH Standards of Care, and c) they're not the only standards of care. So refrain from trying to diagnose someone with GID (or not). And it's 302.85 in the DSM-IV-TR. The ACLU have of the diagnostic criteria, which in no uncertain terms says that cross-gender identification is a necessary criteria before a GID diagnosis. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 13:36, 21 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::I fear you do ''not'' know how those in the field generally referred to them. I do not recall ''anyone'' insisting on a "first name" for the standards <g>. Cheers. ] (]) 15:39, 21 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::I don't think any reference to Benjamin reflects current practice, though. I've just checked, and WPATH took on their current name six years ago, and a hell of a lot can change in six years. I don't think that many trans people have heard of Harry Benjamin... ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 16:28, 21 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Clearly, he is not a gender therapist, which is great news for us ! because wikipedia is not a sex change clinic, and content is not judged by anything but encyclopaedic standards, or so some people ''claim'', don't know why. <span style="text-shadow:#c5C3e3 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em;">]</span>] 15:32, 21 Jun 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::Exactly, I'm going by the sources, which say that Manning was diagnosed with GID and identified as a woman. Which is all we need per MOS:IDENTITY. Any other reading of the sources doesn't really bear out. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 16:28, 21 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == If == | == If == | ||
Revision as of 16:48, 21 June 2012
ANI British Pakistanis closed with no action
To prevent any action, the ANI incident was closed by User:Bwilkins at 13:44, 19 May 2012 (dif-2473). Meanwhile, I was posting my !votes to that thread (dif-5650), and those 2nd carefully considered comments were reverted (and thrown away), rather than re-closing the ANI thread 20 minutes later. Sorry for all the wasted effort (and it was also a huge waste of time on my part). I suspect that many ANI threads are closed-no-action to reduce the size of the ANI page. Bwilkins suggested to perhaps post to WP:RFC/U, which might be the better way to get results, without the pressure to close a detailed thread to make the ANI page smaller. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps not surprising this was closed with no action, as quite a few editors were beginning to find it frustrating (were they just getting bored that there wasn't more gory "action" to entertain the assembled blood-thirsty crowd?) But not sure if this was a satisfactory outcome. There is (of course) no mention in the closing summary that one party felt they had to retire as a result. One suspects that the other party must have been over the moon with this "result". But neither is there any indication of the balance of votes. By my reckoning the "informal outcome" was as follows:
- Topic Ban AnkhMopork: Oppose = 7, Support = 3.
- Topic Ban AndyTheGrump: Oppose 12, Support = 1 (the ip proposer did not actually vote).
- But I think perhaps some of the comments were more enlightening than the votes, particluarly those from OhioStandard. I do hope that Andy will re-consider his self-imposed retirement in due course. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
- Five pillars of Misplaced Pages = 0, Commonsense = 0.
- Trolls in charge of the project = Jackpot. Penyulap ☏ 16:22, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
JC Fremont Misidentification Resolved
A Bancroft Library photo archivist replied, "I had not seen this portrait before. I agree it is unlikely to be JC Fremont. It has been in the Bancroft Portrait File for decades, and the identification was noted as 'questionable' many years ago on the sleeve containing the photo. It is unfortunate it was scanned and put online."
Farther down in his post, the archivist wrote that the Bancroft contributor, Leo Stashin, appears to have made an 8 X 10 gelatin silver print in the mid-1900s of a quarter-plate daguerreotype original shot in San Francisco in 1855. My speculation is there were exposures of Fremont family members elsewhere on the plate, and that identification was mistakenly transferred to the Mystery Man, whose true identity is probably lost to history. RalphWiley (talk) 18:49, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Bah
- Bah... this is what will be the downfall of this well intentioned project.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:57, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Hey Andy
Have a couple beers, take a two week vacation, be back soon. NPOV always wins in the long run, just have a little faith. Carrite (talk) 04:07, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Prejudice
Combating prejudice can be a thankless job. Your efforts at Jimbo's talk are extremely commendable. In time I will comment but I just wanted to thank you for your persistence and your clear and unperterbed manner. The editor in question may not "get it'. But others do. ```Buster Seven Talk 16:08, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with Buster. This place can't afford to lose good people like you. Gandydancer (talk) 17:25, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hear, hear! (And I do hope you don't find anything I've written on Jimbo's page at all patronising – it certainly wasn't meant that way!) —MistyMorn (talk) 21:56, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Mentioned you...
...here. Writegeist (talk) 21:37, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages Help Survey
Hi there, my name's Peter Coombe and I'm a Wikimedia Community Fellow working on a project to improve Misplaced Pages's help system. At the moment I'm trying to learn more about how people use and find the current help pages. If you could help by filling out this brief survey about your experiences, I'd be very grateful. It should take less than 10 minutes, and your responses will not be tied to your username in any way.
Thank you for your time,
the wub (talk) 18:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC) (Delivered using Global message delivery)
A belated welcome!
Here's wishing you a belated welcome to Misplaced Pages, AndyTheGrump. I see that you've already been around a while and wanted to thank you for your contributions. Though you seem to have been successful in finding your way around, you may benefit from following some of the links below, which help editors get the most out of Misplaced Pages:
- Introduction
- The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
- How to edit a page
- Help pages
- How to write a great article
Also, when you post on talk pages you should sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); that should automatically produce your username and the date after your post.
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on my talk page, consult Misplaced Pages:Questions, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there.
Again, welcome! S. Rich (talk) 02:12, 19 June 2012 (UTC)--S. Rich (talk) 02:12, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
A beer for you!
|
i'm glad you're back. we all need excellent people like you. altetendekrabbe 10:23, 19 June 2012 (UTC) |
Hi
Can I just say I admire the level of discourse in this discussion. I appreciate your contribution very much. Would you mind trying to persuade me to your view on images of Muhammad? The reason and eloquence you display in that thread compels me to ask. I won't be a bit offended if you'd prefer not to. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:49, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think I've made my position clear on several occasions: There are no 'images of Muhammed' in the sense that he was never portrayed in his lifetime (or at least, no such portrayal appears to exist), and in Islamic tradition, portraits of the Prophet are rare, and often seen as offensive. It adds nothing whatsoever to an article on Muhammed to add such illustrations - at least, not without making it clear that such portrayals are widely condemned - and it would be more encyclopaedic to omit them (in the main article - there is no reason why we should not have a 'portrayals of the prophet Muhammad' article, with illustrations), and instead explain to readers why such portrayals are rare. Sadly, the issue has been hijacked by 'free speech' campaigners who seem to think that this is some kind of 'creeping censorship', rather than a discussion on the merits of illustrations in a particular article, and by Islamophobes, overt and covert, who wish to engage in shit-stirring for the usual suspect reasons. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:37, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
- It is the equal of having photographs of the garden of eden showing adam and eve having sex with the animals put into the article about the catholic church in the name of free speech. Penyulap ☏ 16:52, 19 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- then asking the local schoolkids to vote on which animal they like best Penyulap ☏ 16:59, 19 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- So...Cain and Abel used their I-Phones to take pics of Mom and Dad having sex with __________________????? (fill in the animal of choice). Interesting. ```Buster Seven Talk 17:05, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
- then asking the local schoolkids to vote on which animal they like best Penyulap ☏ 16:59, 19 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- I couldn't remember what your position was. I agree with every word of that. Thanks. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 20:19, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
- It is the equal of having photographs of the garden of eden showing adam and eve having sex with the animals put into the article about the catholic church in the name of free speech. Penyulap ☏ 16:52, 19 Jun 2012 (UTC)
Manning
This topic is closed. I will not allow Sceptre to violate Wikipedoa WP:BLP policy on my talk page in pursuit of his deranged and obnoxious campaign to 're-gender' Bradley Manning against his own express wishes. Sceptre, fuck of and troll elsewhere, you repulsive little lying bigot. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:48, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
If
If you're going to keep editing, then you really ought to revise the top of your page. We don't need a layer of silly accusations about your integrity or truthfulness driven by the disconnect between your words and your actions. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:42, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
- Good point, though I've not really decided what my intentions Misplaced Pages-wise are. For the moment, I'm just checking in occasionally, and dealing with subjects on my existing watchlist, and don't intend to spend much time here - in any case, my personal life is in a state of flux at the moment, and I can't really make any long-term plans. I'll remove the 'Retired' section though, as it is plainly not true. This place still seems to have a hold on me... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:50, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
a little light reading
As the only recipient of the Grumpy editor award, I thought you may enjoy a little light reading Penyulap ☏ 23:01, 20 Jun 2012 (UTC)