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Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "]". Thank you.<!--Template:DRN-notice--> -- ] (]). 19:45, 12 March 2012 (UTC) Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "]". Thank you.<!--Template:DRN-notice--> -- ] (]). 19:45, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

== ANI discussion ==

There is a ] about a topic you have been involved in relating to DeFacto. You are welcome to bring your experience to that discussion. ] <small>(])</small> 15:47, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:47, 13 March 2012

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http://en.wikipedia.org/Pressure_measurement#McLeod_gauge

Hello NebY. I saw that you removed a reference to Harwood & Moody from the above article. The reference was not intended to the source of the photo (the proper place for that would be on the photo itself not an article). The reference was meant to be to a reference source that shows how to use such an apparatus. Perhaps the ref could be placed elsewhere in the article? Regards -- Quantockgoblin (talk) 19:20, 9 October 2009 (UTC) Hi,

You asked where you should place a reference to a printed book that describes how to use a McLeod gauge. As it's not a source for the information provided in the article, it should be added as further reading rather than as a footnote-style reference. MOS:APPENDIX and specifically WP:FURTHER may be helpful, but of course WP:NOTMANUAL could be relevant. NebY (talk) 10:31, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
NebY - OK, thanks for getting back to me. Use your judgement as to wether you wish to retain the reference in it's current placement. Yes I agree with WP:NOTMANUAL, that's why it was added as a reference source, rather than the "how-to" information actually being added to the article. -- Quantockgoblin (talk) 10:42, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Anticartographicism

Well done in the NWLLRP, though you spoiled my fun. I was looking forward to those in the attic proposing an extension to run through the Tower Subway.--SilasW (talk) 21:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Good grief!--SilasW (talk) 19:56, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Uday Hussein

Hi, sorry this was my mistake. I was editing too quickly. raseaC 09:03, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Gibraltar

Hi, I've seen you've made several edits in the Gibraltar article. I think they are quite accurate and straight to the point, and I think I agree in general with the criteria you've applied.

On the other hand, I am not sure about one specific edit. You've said that mentioning a specific town as the main destination of Gibraltarians is "superfluous".

My own opinion would be that the main destination of the massive exodus of a whole town is quite notable: Gibraltarians didn't simply vanish in the air; most of them established themselves in a very specific location called San Roque. Take into account that San Roque kept an administrative continuity with Gibraltar, all of its official records (which means that it is an important destination in order to research the History of Gibraltar pre-1704), its symbols (the banner), the largest part of the population (which means that it kept demographic continuity with pre-British Gibraltar), and is within sight of the original town (which means that there has been an important amount of interactions -both friendly and hostile- between the two sites during centuries). It has also kept a tradition of being a point of reference with regards to the culture and people of pre-British Gibraltar.

But I would say that the mentions in most reliable authors and sources are more important than my own opinion. Please check below a sample of mentions in the sources that are most widely used with regards to the History of Gibraltar:

Sample of quotes regarding San Roque
  • Maurice Harvey (1996). Gibraltar. A History. Spellmount Limited. p. 68. ISBN 1-86227-103-8.:
“ All bar about 70 of the 4000 inhabitants elected to leave, crossing the isthmus with whatever possession they could carry and seeking shelter over a wide area of Andalucia (..) Many settled in San Roque and the museum there has many mementoes of this troubled period; the town was granted formal recognition by Philip V in 1706 as 'My city of Gibraltar in the fields'. Other travelled as far afield as Ronda and Malaga. ”
  • William Jackson (1990). The Rock of the Gibraltarians. A History of Gibraltar (Second ed.). Grendon, Northamptonshire, United Kingdom: Gibraltar Books. p. 101. ISBN 0-948466-14-6.:
“ Some people travelled as far as Medina Sidonia, Ronda, and Malaga to find refuge. Most of the fishermen and their families moved into the ruins of Algeciras and restarted not only their own lives there but the life of Algeciras. Other families settled nearby at Los Barrios that had grown into a small town by 1716. Members of the religious orders found havens in the monasteries and nunneries throughout southern Andalucia. But the most important settlement to be established was around the Hermitage of San Roque, which, in 1706 Philip V addressed as "My City of Gibraltar resident in its Campo." The city council, banner, and records were moved there, and San Roque become Spanish Gibraltar as the Rock was gradually transformed into British Gibraltar. ”
  • George Hills (1974). Rock of Contention. A History of Gibraltar. London: Robert Hale. p. 166. ISBN 0-7091-4352-4.:
“ Accordingly, when the garrison and City Council marched out on 7 August under the terms of surrender, all but 70 of the inhabitants of the 1,200 houses in the city took what they could carry of what had not yet been plundered, and then filed through the gate towards the ruins of ancient Carteia. The number of refugees was probably about 4,000. Some found shelter in the mountain villages and towns as far as Medina Sidonia, Ronda and Malaga. The wealthier refugees owned property within the extensive city boundaries beyond the isthmus. One of them, the regidor (town councillor), Bartolomé Luis Varela, gave houseroom in his country mansion to the city's standard and records; the City Council continued to meet there, and in 1706 obtained royal authority for the Gibraltarian refugees to establish themselves round the hermitage of San Roque. Philip V, in granting the authority and in subsequent communications, addressed them always as My City of Gibraltar resident in its Campo. ”
“ (..) a consequence of the allied occupation of the peninsula in 1704 was to break the established connections with the people and resources of the mainland. Compounding this diffi culty, the allied occupation in 1704 prompted the exodus from Gibraltar of virtually all the resident civilian population. True, such departures had happened on previous occasions in Gibraltar’s history when new regimes took over after successful sieges, as in 1309 and 1333. But this time the civilian population’s concerns for their safety under British control were compounded by not unreasonable fears of mistreatment by Protestant troops. Most Catholics, perhaps 1,500 families, maybe 5,000–6,000 people, transported themselves and their movables across the new frontier to the Campo de Gibraltar, and especially to San Roque. A British officer listed the names of those few Spanish who remained and were still resident in 1712. There were twenty-five family groups and sixteen individuals, including a couple of friars and two Catholic priests, possibly as few as 70 people, or 120 at most (..) ”
“ Tras la salida de la ciudad, unos cuatro mil gibraltareños se asentaron en los alrededores. Aunque algunos viajaron a las grandes ciudades de Sevilla y Málaga, los más quedaron cerca de donde pensaban pronto volver: algunos pescadores gibraltareños se instalaron en las ruinas de Algeciras, un grupo más numeroso creó el núcleo de Los Barrios, aunque el grueso de la población y el concejo se constituyó de nuevo en la cercana ermita de San Roque, que había sido fundada en 1640 a media legua de las ruinas de Carteia; el nuevo pueblo, a quién nadie tuvo la tentación de llamar Nuevo Gibraltar ante lo que se esperaba pronto retorno, ya fue reconocido en 1706 por Felipe V como "Mi ciudad de Gibraltar en ese Campo", y pasó a ser el heredero directo y continuador institucional de Gibraltar con su ayuntamiento, el archivo y el pendón que la reina Isabel la Católica había concedido a la ciudad "llave de estos reinos" ”
  • Allen Andrews (1958). Proud fortress; the fighting story of Gibraltar. p. 54.
“ A small number came back to inhabit a hillside quarter where the dust of the rubble eddied in the down-draught of the wind over the Rock. But most of them settled in Spain round the hill of San Roque, within sight of the lost city. Their Sovereign, the Bourbon Philip V, whom the British soon recognised as lawful King of Spain, never ceased to regard them as the future burgesses of the fortress he daily mourned, and recognised the new municipality by Royal Patent as the Council, Tribunal, Officers

and Gentlemen of the City of Gibraltar. To this day San Roque bears the arms and constitution of the Spanish City of Gibraltar in Exile.

”
  • Edward G. Archer (2006). Gibraltar, identity and empire. p. 34.
“ When the Anglo Dutch fleet under Admiral Sir George Rooke occupied the Rock for England in 1704, the Spanish population, with a few exceptions, left Gibraltar and moved to San Roque, some miles inside Spain. ”
  • Frederick Sayer (1862). The history of Gibraltar and of its political relation to events in Europe. p. 117.
“ Numbers fell by the way victims to hunger and fatigue some reached Tarifa, Medina Sidonia, Ronda and other towns in the neighbourhood while many especially the authorities remained at St Roque keeping with them the archives of their ancient city. ”
“ Most of the civilians who left Gibraltar never returned. Of those who left, most settled in the town of San Roque, overlooking the Bay of Gibraltar. These individuals not only remained within sight of “the Rock” but preserved the traditions of Spanish Gibraltar, retaining the flag and the standard that was bestowed by Queen Isabella. ”


“ The bulk of those who left turned to the nearby town of San Roque, taking with them all oficial documents of Gibraltar. San Roque was regarded as temporary refuge for the exiled Gibraltarians; it received the right to bear the city arms of Gibraltar and was given the official denomination “La Ciudad de San Roque donde reside la muy noble y mas leal de Gibraltar”. ”


You are right to say that this information may be "contentious", but only when it is used by Spanish irredentists (pretending that San Roque is "the real Gibraltar"), or by British nationalists (pretending that life in Gibraltar did simply not exist pre-1704).

On the other hand, I hope you agree on the factuality, notability and relevance of the exodus and its destination for the inhabitants of Gibraltar (at least for the ones pre-1704). It would be controversial if we were to say that "San Roque is the real Gibraltar", but this is not the case if we just mention that it was the main destination. Furthermore, this fact is mentioned by most relevant and uncontroversial sources.


Sorry for the long text, and thank you for your edits and your attention. -- Imalbornoz (talk) 15:17, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words. I admit, my use of the term "superfluous" was imprecise shorthand. The process of editing the encyclopaedia can be one of patiently considering the advantages and disadvantages of different phrasings, then realising with a start that the text works better if a phrase is simply excised so that the reader may be brought more rapidly to an understanding that might then serve as a platform for and an encouragement to further exploration. In that sense the excised phrase, however true, turns out to be "superfluous". The alternative may be that the phrase, at least as it is currently located, will need expansion and qualification if it is not to be misunderstood, to appear to claim something inaccurate or merely to be present to support some particular standpoint. Yes, sometimes that expansion and qualification can be delivered quickly and easily, but if it cannot we might do better to leave the matter to be expanded upon later, perhaps even in a section that directly discusses the existence of different standpoints.
In this instance, we have a paragraph that so far is describing the events of August 1704 and currently is even limited to 4 days of that month. (We could change that, of course.) It said that the townsfolk fled to San Roque and the neighbouring region. It requires no qualification to say that on August 7th they fled to the surrounding region, but it requires significant qualification to say that they fled to San Roque. We would have to explain that (in the quotations you sent me) Harvey says they first sought "shelter over a wide area of Andalucia" and Jackson says "Some people travelled as far as Medina Sidonia, Ronda, and Malaga to find refuge. Most of the fishermen and their families moved into the ruins of Algeciras and restarted not only their own lives there but the life of Algeciras. Other families settled nearby at Los Barrios that had grown into a small town by 1716. Members of the religious orders found havens in the monasteries and nunneries throughout southern Andalucia" and eventually "the most important settlement to be established was around the Hermitage of San Roque", receiving royal recognition in 1706.
These are hazardous waters. If we accept the statements of Harvey, Jackson, Hills, Sepulveda and Andrews that you provided then Jordine and Kramer are anachronistic: there was no pre-existing town of San Roque in which they could settle and the Gibraltarians could not have turned towards that town. Examine Sayer and we stumble over "numbers fell by the way victims to hunger and fatigue" before we even reach the implication that the burgesses simply stopped as soon as they reached St Roque.
What’s worse, we don’t know if the phrase we had in Misplaced Pages, “fled to San Roque and ...”, misleads by suggesting San Roque was the main intended destination. Some readers would take it that way, some wouldn’t; some historians might claim it but it seems most wouldn’t.
So, that’s some of why I called that phrase superfluous. I’m leaving open the question of whether and how San Roque should be mentioned here or elsewhere in this article because I’d rather try to solve that by creating suitable text. But not now, especially as I seem to be writing very ponderous English! NebY (talk) 21:06, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
I do welcome any improvement in the grammar of that piece btw could you point to any source that says they fled to San Roque? As you seem to have some domain knowledge and access to sources I would welcome your comments. As written it implies an urgency that simply does not sit comfortably with the historical depiction. Wee Curry Monster talk 20:40, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
I cannot point to any source that says they fled to San Roque. The version you see now is not the product of my edits, which last read
On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. Violence followed the surrender with rape, looting and desecration of churches by occupying forces and reprisal killings by inhabitants. By 7 August order was restored but almost all the population departed with the Spanish garrison.
In the Treaty of Utrecht (1713) Spain ceded Gibraltar and Minorca to Great Britain, which had already begun to exercise sole control over Gibraltar. Minorca changed hands several times over the next century but Gibraltar remained under British rule despite various negotiations, blockades and a series of sieges culminating in the Great Siege of Gibraltar (1779-1783). It became a key base for the Royal Navy and played an important part prior to the Battle of Trafalgar (1805).
After I made the edits to produce that version, User:Imalbornoz contacted me as above rather than on the article's talk page. I read the quotes provided and responded, as above, that the quotations did not seem to support a claim that the destination of the inhabitants on that day was San Roque. I made no changes to the article. About half an hour later my edits were reverted by User:86.147.105.126. I hope to return to the matter one day but I'd rather not waste a lot of time on it. My responses to Imalbornoz above and yourself now already seem disproportionately longwinded! NebY (talk) 21:17, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Dispute Resolution

I have opened a dispute resolution page regarding Heroes in Hell and Gilgamesh in the Outback where your conduct has been mentioned. You can find the page here. I, Jethrobot (note: not a bot!) 07:01, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your attempt to help keep these page discussions reasonable. Unfortunately, there is no longer any point. Two weeks after reaching consensus on the Gilgamesh in the Outback page, Mr. Wolfowitz rewrote the entire page to reflect his version of history stating that "he didn't agree with the consensus" calling it "capitulation." I give up. No evidence or explanation is accepted if it deviates from Mr. Wolfowitz' beliefs. I have more important things to do than argue with someone who refuses to see any viewpoint but his own, while Mr. Wolfowitz has nothing to do but sit on WP all day and monitor pages he has taken a personal interest in. With editors like him, Misplaced Pages becomes less and less accurate every day and will continue to discourage new editors who run across a Wolfowitz (and apparently some long-time editors have given up too). I hope that someday, WP has the desire to consider accuracy over ego and have some fact-checkers stop out-of-control editors from trying to change history. Hulcys930 (talk) 00:51, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Animal Farm

I just wanted to thank you for getting involved in the discussion, and for putting things in a way that both makes sense to me and apparently may have satisfied Jesse and Medeis...at least until they speak up again. Right now I'm planning to stay clear of the discussion unless other editors speak up, unless you feel I should speak up again, but I really think the unsourced "references" need to go, and that we should have clear criteria for inclusion per WP:LSC. Thanks again. Doniago (talk) 23:33, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Can't believe this skeleton just got dragged out of the closet...though I guess Halloween is coming up soon... Doniago (talk) 00:58, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Following the success of my last argument (who could have imagined References to Hamlet existed?) I'm considering pointing out that only scoundrels, debt defaulters and traitors resort to "self-evident truths". NebY (talk) 20:50, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks

for your help on Bicycle helmet. It's appreciated. Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:35, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! NebY (talk) 22:19, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what to do

An editor who spent quite some time attempting to alter the page "Gilgamesh in the Outback" and was finally forced to accept a consensus (and has now reverted the consensus in the last 3 minutes again) is now "cleaning up" another page by the same author of the Heroes in Hell series and I have been told his "edits" are not considered "vandalism" by WP standards. This page, The Sacred Band of Stepsons, has stood unmolested for a year and a half but suddenly it needs to be "cleaned up" i.e., removing book cover images, rewording many paragraphs, taking out any mention of LGBT issues, and generally diluting the information on the page. I have no idea what to do in this case when there is a distinct lack of WP:AGP but he stays within the boundaries of "acceptable" behaviour. In the last 5 minutes he has also gone back into the Heroes in Hell series page, the Gilgamesh in the Outback page, the Heroes in Hell (book) and has redone all the edits that had been decided against by consensus. Can you help me? Hulcys930 (talk) 22:23, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Consensus of the Heroes in Hell Merge - Did it include all of the Books and Stories?

According to my memory during the Lawyers in Hell AfD discussion about merging the Heroes in Hell articles into one large article, it was decided ALL the articles were to be merged. No mention was made of leaving any of the articles separate.

When I went to merge the one remaining article, one editor got really upset saying that the merge discussion did not include this article, Gilgamesh in the Outback. I believe that the consensus was for all articles. The admin who is currently handling the dispute was not involved at the time, and needs to see a show of hands. If you have any opinion on the issue could you please make your opinion known at Talk:Gilgamesh in the Outback. UrbanTerrorist (talk) 16:07, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

deletion - bmi

hello,

i've posted my comment on the discussion section, is it possible we can establish some sort of discussion there?

thanks,

busybeeBusybee007 (talk) 01:59, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

ANI & Yahia

Thanks for spotting and correcting my mistake. In my defense, I had about 2 hours of sleep last night and am surprised I'm even functioning. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 16:27, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Wow! But of course you've nothing to apologise for, that was just a typo on the way to fixing a bigger problem. Good to see you got such quick results. NebY (talk) 16:36, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Notification of DRN submission

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "Metrication in the United Kingdom". Thank you. -- de Facto (talk). 19:45, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

ANI discussion

There is a discussion on ANI about a topic you have been involved in relating to DeFacto. You are welcome to bring your experience to that discussion. Toddst1 (talk) 15:47, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

User talk:NebY: Difference between revisions Add topic