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My Talk Archives

Index Archive 1

William F. Buckley, Jr. vandalism

That wasn't vandalism, I just forgot to cite it. Don't threaten me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.97.1 (talk) 00:00, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Changing a writer's primary subject from conservatism to racism is indeed vandalism. –CWenger (talk) 00:11, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

New Big Ten logo discussion

You recently contributed to Big Ten Conference. Your input is requested for the following discussion: Talk:Big_Ten_Conference#Which_new_logo_version.3F. Thank you. Levdr1 (talk) 10:55, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

RE: Vandalism at Internet Explorer 9?

Block

CWenger (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

I think I was blocked mistakenly, then unblocked shortly afterwards, but I am still unable to edit any page but my own talk. When I go to my contributions page it has the red blocked box at the top. I have logged out, closed all browser windows, then logged back in to no avail. Please help! –CWenger (talk) 19:57, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Accept reason:

An autoblock was still active - should be cleared now. Kuru (talk) 20:07, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Google Chrome

Yep, I'm using the stable release of Chrome, and it is currently 11.0.696.16, and the BETA is currently the same version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ATR94 (talk • contribs) 17:52, March 27, 2011

Well, any idea why mine isn't updating? –CWenger (talk) 23:04, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

The Simpsons

Then find a place for it. Kingjeff (talk) 02:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

To be honest I would say nowhere. This seems like an obvious case of WP:RECENTISM to me. In a few weeks/months will anybody remember or care that one TV station decided to stop showing a few episodes? –CWenger (talk) 03:03, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not just about the show. The whole problem in Japan has made worldwide news. Kingjeff (talk) 03:07, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

It probably would make more sense as a new section in 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami. It just doesn't seem that relevant to The Simpsons IMO. –CWenger (talk) 03:10, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I re-reverted what you un-reverted on Palestine

The explanation is that the paragraph is opinion from a primary source. While it's all fine and good to characterize it as an opinion, that's not what the paragraph is doing, and it does not contribute anything encyclopedic to the article while nearly lying to the reader that the author's characterization of Palestinean economics at the time was supported by any sort of modeling and data rather than being anecdotal. If you find numbers, models, trends, or something objective in the primary source, you can use that. I don't think you can revert it as-stated because that rhetoric simply doesn't belong on Misplaced Pages. See WP:NEUTRAL and WP:SOAP --Utopianfiat (talk) 20:15, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I am fine with that. I mainly just reverted the removal because it was completely unexplained by the editor as far as I could tell. Your interpretation sounds right. –CWenger (talk) 00:30, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Article for deletion debate

The article Young Conservatives of Texas has been nominated for deletion at AfD. Your input as to whether or not this article meets Notability standards is invited. Thank you. Carrite (talk) 16:53, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Ping

I responded on my talk page. Thanks! Plastikspork _―Œ 04:40, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Removing hyphens after -ly adverbs

Take a look at WT:AWB/T#Removing hyphens after -ly adverbs and see if that helps. Chris the speller  23:39, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Response to en-dash comments

Hi,

Just my two bits on some recent comments you made.

Rarity of "Mexican–American War": Yes, it's uncommon, but I believe that's simply due to disjunctive en dashes being uncommon, in which case IMO the discussion should be about disjunctive en dashes at the MOS, and not about this particular name.

Disjunctive en dashes seem pretty common in reliable sources like scholarly books and articles.

"Mexico–America War": This is apparently a spurious argument invented by PMAnderson. At least, he's never provided any evidence for it, and it's contradicted by RSs. As for MOS:ENDASH examples all use words acting as nouns (France–Germany border rather than French–German border), I did a search and found a style guide that actually uses French–German border as an example of disjunctive en dash. I have never found anything that suggests that part of speech is relevant. It seems that examples with nouns are the most common and just easiest to come up with. — kwami (talk) 00:43, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Style guides may not say this explicitly but it seems to be commonly understood that en dashes are not used with words acting as adjectives. There may be a few exceptions in reliable sources but this seems to be quite rare. And MOS:ENDASH reflects this in the examples it uses.

Bottom line: About 50% of reliable sources use Michelson–Morley experiment. About 5% (being generous) of reliable sources use Mexican–American War. There has to be a reason. –CWenger (talk) 07:08, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Another point: MOS:ENDASH makes an exception for elements that lack lexical independence, e.g. Sino-Japanese trade. Presumably the same would apply to the element Franco. So are you saying it would be Franco-German border but French–German border? Seems unlikely that two phrases that similar would use different punctuation. (Disclaimer: I don't know what the difference between Franco and French is...) –CWenger (talk) 07:38, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there is a reason "Michelson–Morley experiment" is more commonly dashed: There is felt to be a need to distinguish technical terms named after two people from those named after one person with a double-barreled name. There are even technical dictionaries which spell out (en dash) or (hyphen) after entries, just to be sure. Indeed, several style guides I've seen give personal names and numbers as their only examples of disjunctive dashes. As various users have pointed out, there really isn't much danger in misinterpreting "Mexican-American War" as a war among Mexican-Americans, if for no other reasons than familiarity and context. En dashes in such situations are therefore more a matter of stylistic consistency than necessity, and in a world where en dashes are commonly replaced with hyphens, the less need there is, the less likely they are to be used. There is a similar difference in usage compared to date and page ranges: hyphens between numbers can mean all sorts of things, so better to be precise. But we're an encyclopedia, so IMO it's best to be precise as a matter of course.

As for it being commonly understood that en dashes are not used with words acting as adjectives, I don't know where you get that impression. Certainly in English we more often compound attributive nouns disjunctively than we do adjectives, but we have several examples of adjectives in professional style guides, and no-one's been able to find a source to the contrary.

I don't know the reason for exempting prefixes. But it's easy enough to turn your argument around: Are you saying it would be France–Germany border but French-German border? Seems unlikely that two phrases that similar would use different punctuation.

— kwami (talk) 08:24, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

But you have to admit that Franco-German border is more similar to French-German border than French-German border to France–Germany border. I assume the logic behind this rule is that when two nouns are used an en dash is preferred to show that they are distinct entities. But when you have an element that lacks lexical independence like Franco-, there is no possible ambiguity. I would argue that same case holds for adjectives with lexical independence like French. –CWenger (talk) 17:18, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, there is the possibility for ambiguity, and I have seen books which use en dashes even for things like Franco- when they are disjunctive. However, it's a common exception in style guides. I don't know the history of why. — kwami (talk) 22:58, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

For the record, I think the distinction you make sensible and is certainly one quite reasonable solution. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:40, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Talkback

Obama citizenship

You might want to see WP:NPOVN. Dougweller (talk) 13:40, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Gracias!

Thanks for catching this , I had just noticed the overwritten comment when you fixed it. Thanks! Dayewalker (talk) 06:37, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

No problem! –CWenger (^ • @) 06:41, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Family Guy

I usually do write edit summaries. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 20:11, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Good news, everyone!

The A-Class Review for the Frank Buckles article was closed and promoted just moments ago. I want personally thank you for your help on the article and hope to work again with you on the FAC in the near future. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 10:24, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your extinction restore on Risks to civilization, humans and planet Earth. Special:Contributions/Arthur Rubin seems to be on a wp:witchhunt.

Thank you for your extinction restore on Risks to civilization, humans and planet Earth. Special:Contributions/Arthur Rubin seems to be on a wp:witchhunt. He put this on my talk page User talk:97.87.29.188, stating he was playing "tag", acting with impunity. 97.87.29.188 (talk) 19:48, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Perfect game

Actually, it's a bit more complicated. One user, without discussion, unilaterally moved the page. Then someone started a discussion on whether to move it back. They had it backwards. It's Bold-Revert-Discuss, not Bold-Discuss, maybe-Revert. So I did the middle part of the BRD, but the discussion continued. I think it's fairly clear there's no consensus to put bowling at an equal footing with major league baseball. Anyway, I'm just cluing you in, as someone might complain. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I see. Well, I think if somebody really wants it moved they should start a new move discussion. Thanks for letting me know. –CWenger (^ • @) 18:36, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Yep. I toyed with refactoring it after I moved it back, but decided to leave it be, as it's essentially the same argument. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:42, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Incident

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Move war over typography of en dash versus hyphen regarding an issue with which you may have been involved.--Toddy1 (talk) 06:11, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

That's the syntax I was looking for....Thanks.

(On the Merge proposal link for Gary E. Johnson.). TheNgeveld 02:43, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

No problem. I had to look it up too, at Template:Merge. –CWenger (^ • @) 02:45, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

PS-(apologies for the hyphens)- I like your user page. Both entertaining and informative. My 17-year old was impressed with Ron Paul during tonight's debate. Personally, I like the guy as a senator, and I think the theory's good, but I'm afraid of what might happen if someone with his energy and unyielding perspective had the power of the presidency. Anyway. Nice user page. TheNgeveld 02:53, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, and I guess I'll forgive you on the hyphens. :-) To be fair, I have reservations about some of Ron Paul's policies as well, particularly foreign policy and ending the Federal Reserve (these are positions I have come around to more recently). But I think government spending has to be the primary concern right now, given our current $14 trillion debt. He is the best person to deal with it, precisely because most people do not have his "energy and unyielding perspective", as you aptly put it! Oh, and he is a representative; his son Rand is a senator (the moderator made the same mistake at one point tonight!). –CWenger (^ • @) 03:35, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

In 2012, anyone who will undo the worst of this administrations usurpation of power get my vote. I knew Paul the elder was a congressman. Brain cramp. TheNgeveld 12:00, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Mitch Daniels

Thanks for you work on the Mitch Daniels article, I've been trying to improve it lately. Traffic on the article is spiking. 22:15, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Personal attacks, as a distraction from article collaboration

Thanks for this inquiry about personal attacks another user has made on me, but I'd prefer to keep article talk pages for discussions about improving articles. --Uncle Ed (talk) 17:14, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Merge discussion around Abortion debate

Can you make your points at Talk:Abortion_debate#Starting_over where the discussion is currently taking place. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:02, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Great :). -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:22, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Collaboration

• Ever feel like you're editing in a vacuum, and long for some camaraderie?
• Do you want to improve an article and put a Featured Article star on your userpage but don't know how to get started?
• Want to be part of a cohesive, committed team working together to improve conservatism one article at a time?

If you're interested in having lots of fun and working with great editors, click here and make history. We're now taking nominations. Lionelt (talk) 01:25, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Classical liberalism

You should respond on the discussion page. Projects should adopt relevant articles. An argument could be made that all ideologies have some relevance to conservatism, but then we would only have one ideology project. People interested in liberalism will no doubt look to the liberalism project for articles about liberalism. TFD (talk) 05:22, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Where on the discussion page? I don't see anything to respond to. Anyway, classical liberalism and conservatism are very closely related. In theory they should share the exact same economic policy, just like libertarianism, which already has a project banner there. If the banner was going in, say, the socialism article, I'd agree. But I don't see the harm in adding conservatism project banner if it might mean more people looking to improve the article. –CWenger (^ • @) 05:29, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Chris Christie

You've removed a section which I had reinserted and expanded on the basis of 'undue weight'. Don't see how a few sentences on something that has gotten considerable coverage would qualify, and certainly the fact that the governor reimbursed the state must be mentioned, but assuming for argument's sake this section is too long, I would think editing it rather than removing it would be more desirable. 24.187.214.210 (talk) 15:11, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Got your message, will reply on article talk page as time permits. I understand your point about using caution when assuming vandalism, but please understand my concerns about cited material removed without edit summary. 24.187.214.210 (talk) 20:35, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I understand your concerns. I just want to make sure people assume good faith. I hope that will make it easier to come to a consensus on this matter. –CWenger (^ • @) 20:49, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Stephen Moore

Source: David E. Roop, Jr., Esquire THE ROOP LAW FIRM, PLLC 1604 Spring Hill Road Suite #460 Vienna, Virginia 22182 (703) 442-0040 - Telephone (703) 442-0035 - Facsimile — Preceding unsigned comment added by Strongerone (talk • contribs) 12:26, 8 June 2011 (UTC) Why don't you email Stephen Moore at WSJ. He can be my Source. steve.moore@WSJ.com.

Also, I do not want my children's names to appear on line. Thank you.

Allison Moore sllisonmoore1@gmail.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Strongerone (talk • contribs) 11:06, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Hello,

I am Allison Moore, EX wife of Stephen Moore. I keep trying to edit this on his bio. Our divorce was final last week. You can probably read about it in the Style section of the Washington Post sometime. I appreciate you leaving my edits. Or you can write:

Moore lives in Northern Virginia with his three children. Do not include their names. thanks so much.

Allison Moore — Preceding unsigned comment added by Strongerone (talk • contribs) 12:35, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

You still must provide a source, otherwise it is WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. –CWenger (^ • @) 13:52, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Benedict Arnold (governor)

Wow, you must be a speed reader. That article had not been out there more than five minutes before you responded. Many thanks for de-captializing all the "Governor"s. Several of these articles had been red-linked with the capital G, so I left it in when I created the articles, thinking later that they should all be lower case. I didn't know how to fix it, so you've taken care of that little annoyance for me. Cheers.Sarnold17 (talk) 20:43, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Matchbox-20/Post-grunge

Hi, sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I can understand the Matchbox-20 situation being somewhat tricky. I am aware there is the factor of their commercial "Alt"/Modern Rock radio association lingering. What it comes down to, for me, is that this is a common issue for many bands besides MB20.

Let's go back. We all know the story of Nirvana's "Smells like Teen Spirit", how it impacted the direction of the (decade-old) "Alternative" genre. Alternative became mainstream...but, if you'll notice also, mainstream became Alternative. Yes, the label went from being...pretty much what it implied, to a catch-all for almost everything that wasn't pure Metal, "classic rock" bands, black/urban music or eurodisco. Many bands became Alt. whose sound had nothing to do with it--sometimes even to the surprise of the artists!

Look at this list of bands, and think carefully about it (not to say you don't normally think deeply). They are among numerous who were/are lazily given the Alt-Rock treatment when other labels are far more suited:

• The Black Crowes (Purely Southern Rock, Hard Rock and Blues Rock-influenced)
• Dave Matthews Band (Jam Band with Fusion-Jazz and Bluegrass elements)
• Blues Traveler (Jam Band + Blues/Roots Rock)
• Hootie & the Blowfish (Soft Rock, Country/Americana and plain radio-ready Pop)
• Counting Crows (Pop-Rock and Americana, influenced by Van Morrisson and Mike + the Mechanics. Hardly a formula for Alt!)
• Goo Goo Dolls (Pop-Rock/Soft Rock on the Adult Alternative end, perhaps)
• Creed (Stadium Rock/Hard Rock styled "post-grunge" ((more on this later)), debatably Christian Rock)
• Sheryl Crow (Blues/Roots Rock, Folk, Soft-Rock)
• Joan Osbourne (Pop/Soft Rock)
• Alanis Morrisette (Pop-Rock/Adult Alternative with a tinge of post-grunge on JLP)

+

• A lot of Nu-Metal or Industrial Metal (ie. Marilyn Manson, Korn, Rob Zombie, Monster Magnet, Fear Factory)
• Punk "Revival" acts (who played pure punk or pop-punk, not punk-influenced Alt-Rock)

Most the genres listed here have histories older than Alternative's. Meaning, those artists for whom they are primarily styles, could have appeared before about 1980 and been received no differently than others in the genre. Usually "middle of the road" music is what they were considered. Safe.

So as for Matchbox-20: Even though for the purpose of commercial Rock relevance, there is maybe a tinge of "Grungey" energy on their debut, I would comfortably place them in the main category of commercial pop-rock.

Put it this way, Neil Young released a couple of albums during the 1990s in Grunge style. Taking his whole career into question, however, he cannot really be called a Grunge or Alt-Rock artist (despite influencing the genre). Billy Joel even released an album in 1980 containing punk/New Wave vibes, but surely, he's not part of punk and new wave legacy.

Music programmers never really knew what to do with the Alt. label. Possibly the problem is that those who were unexposed to the early, underground niche period had no background information to help them understand the style when it went mainstream. MB-20 are more in line with John Mellencamp or Bryan Adams. Bands identified as Alt, needed to show some evidence of influence in the punk and D.I.Y tradition...not the tradition of old school Rock/MOR. Theburning25 (talk) 06:53, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Continued: On "Post-grunge" as an Alt. Genre

(Sorry, I know this is already lengthy)

I'm of the belief that just around a handful of bands under the post-grunge title had proper Alt-Rock qualifications. Some of them were rooted in the proper Grunge period...others originated near that later transitional, but still Grunge-y period ('94-95). What's important to remember about this label, as noted in it's genre article: The term post-grunge was meant to be pejorative, suggesting that they were simply musically derivative, or a cynical response to an "authentic" rock movement.

The "classic" hard rock/metal sound was commercially suffering at the time, largely on the basis of the backlash toward 80s Glam. So a band pretty much would want to sound more like Nirvana an Pearl Jam in order stand a chance (hence MB-20's "Grungey" first album). As time went by and Grunge saw it's own demise, though, the feeling seemed to ease up. Nu-metal appeared, with it's Faith No More/Beastie Boys take on Metal which cited minor Grunge influence. Then of course the stadium Gods who would be Creed and Nickelback, and bands like them, popped up under the "post-Grunge" banner. Many of these acts were also playlisted as "Alt.", even though reactions towards these bands quickly grew to be similar to that of 80s Glam.

How do we explain the post-grunge label's association with bands like Buckcherry, Hinder, Black Stone Cherry and Saving Abel, bands who categorically are revivalists of 80s Glam Metal? It is obvious that aside some Eddie Vedder aping here and there, the origins of these bands is not in Alt. music.

So following about 1997-98--particularly marked by Creed's success with "Human Clay", it is safe to say that post-grunge ceased to be Alt. Instead it was/is more of a title for bands continuing where Glam/Classic Rock left off.

In conclusion, since I am stickler for genre and encyclopedic accuracy, I am adamant that including MB-20 and most post-grunge on the Alt-Rock makes it look embarrassing, like the product of uninformed amateurs. Theburning25 (talk) 07:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

I more or less agree with you, but to be honest, it doesn't really matter. We are looking for verifiability, not truth. If reliable sources say Matchbox Twenty is alternative rock, they should be listed on that page, regardless of our personal opinions. –CWenger (^ • @) 04:22, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Hekerui (talk) has bought you a pint! Sharing a pint is a great way to bond with other editors after a day of hard work. Spread the WikiLove by buying someone else a pint, whether it be someone with whom you have collaborated or had disagreements. Cheers!

I don't drink but they say German beer is among the better varieties :)

Excellent edit to Scott Walker article

It was true, of course; but not encyclopedic (and an insult to a harmless household product, as well). --Orange Mike | Talk 12:59, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Updated some of the data methology. You will see why. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 02:45, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Error Correction

Sorry for the alteration I made. It was not vandalism, it was a simple mathematical mistake. And thank you for catching this error and correcting me. 99.161.178.236 (talk) 05:03, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

No problem, sorry for the warning in that case. –CWenger (^ • @) 05:04, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Sunburn (Fuel song)

The article Sunburn (Fuel song) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

No notability. Component charts only, not national. Completely unreferenced.

While all contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Regards, SunCreator 18:54, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Barbecue sauce

Hi CWenger, the barbecue EL in question has been spammed recently into multiple articles. It was rejected as spam before. Moreover, the site has flagrant copyright violations (see Letterman's top tens in center column). This is reason enough to pull it out.

I'm not sure if the assertions on the talk page are correct. I tried using the Wayback machine tonight to see what language was being used at an earlier date and didn't find it. That aside, on AGF, I would give him the benefit of the doubt on that and we should perhaps rewrite like we would for any other copyvio. I would like to continue with my dialog with him for the time being on my talk page as there is the appearance of multiple accounts being used.

I'm also not quick to jump on charges of plagiarism when he appears to be doing precisely that on his website. Cheers,
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:32, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

My apologies then. Go ahead and undo my revert or I can do it. I also wasn't sure what the editor meant by this edit summary: "per ... OTRS ticket 2011061910009237". Do you know? –CWenger (^ • @) 01:39, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

No problem...one side effect of working on articles like these is that it makes you hungry...I'm working on dinner. :)

After different editors reverted the spam additions the other day, he says that he wrote OTRS. That process can be referenced here but I view that as trying to game the system and it leads me to believe that someone with experience at promoting websites (read paid editor) probably put him up to that as a way to try to get around being reverted.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 02:23, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I see. Presumably there is somebody who can check the OTRS and verify that this is a real request? Or are you suggesting it is a real request but done by somebody with a COI? –CWenger (^ • @) 02:29, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

The latter.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 02:30, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I notice the IP address used by the editor geolocates to Chicago. Seems somewhat unlikely for a BBQ expert to be located there. –CWenger (^ • @) 03:03, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I've moved the dialog to Talk:Barbecue#External link request where other editors may join in the discussion.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 21:58, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Facebook public domain?

Hi! I was asking that is facebook a public domain or not? If it is, can you tell me how can I upload image from facebook? User:BrianZhukov 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't know for sure, as I don't do much work with images, but I would guess almost certainly no. –CWenger (^ • @) 16:54, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks. User:BrianZhukov 26 June 2011 (UTC)

abortion lede

Please visit the abortion lede. 71.3.237.145 (talk) 00:49, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

William F. Buckley Jr. and Race

Regarding your editing of my addition, you made a few points:

1. My change gave "undue weight"
2. My change used a circular reference
3. I should use the talk page for discussion

Last point first: I have had a new section on the talk page for this article regarding this problem for a week now, yet this change is visible for less than an hour and it is immediately undone, and without a clear argument on your part.

Regarding the circular reference, my reading of wiki's page on this problem is that this policy is an attempt to prevent the occurrence of wikipedia fostering incestuous academic work. IE, wikipedia does not want to say that x is true because wikipedia says so, as opposed to some credible outside source saying so. However, my addition does no such thing. The objective here is to document the widespread accounts of supposedly authoritative research sources misrepresenting Buckley's position on a highly contentious issue in the United States. The especially slanderous label of "White Supremacist" by wikipedia for such a long period of time (the original paragraph which used the less offensive but still inaccurate phraseology of "supporting the segregationist South" was added the day of his death in 2008) must be mentioned in this context.

As far as "undue weight", I'm not really sure what that means. Can you be more specific? As I said, I have had a section in the talk page regarding this for a week now, and no responses have appeared there as yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frochi (talk • contribs) 07:08, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) As to the "undue weight" question, see WP:UNDUE. (And as a Southerner with a Goldwaterite background, I certainly remember Buckley as "supporting the segregationist South" for an embarassingly long time.) --Orange Mike | Talk 13:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

To be clear, I don't "remember" anything per se, as I was born some years after segregation ceased to be a prominent issue. I can say that I am a Southerner, though not of any long-held particular political candidate affiliation. However, I do have access to the full text of the editorial in question, and in it Mr. Buckley plainly abhors segregation as a means of suppressing a group of people, in this case the black population. What he also objects to however, is the attempt on the part of some to abruptly grant the right of suffrage and other equality of outcome means as a crass political maneuver.

The phrase "Buckley supports the segregationist south", based on its construction, is meant to convey that Buckley supports segregation as an integral and necessary feature of the south, and this claim is not supported by the editorial in question. In fact, the editorial thoroughly refutes the claim.

If you can provide any evidence that Buckley supported racial segregation as a means unto itself, I'd like to see it.

--Frochi (talk) 14:45, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

PS - I read the WP:UNDUE section which CWenger linked in his undo. The topic is fairly broad, so the relevance to my addition is unclear.

--Frochi (talk) 15:15, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Hi, sorry I didn't notice that you posted this material first at Talk:William F. Buckley, Jr. and sorry for the delay in my response. The discussion has picked up there so I am not sure this is necessary but I will explain my reasoning. First is undue weight. In this revision, there was way too much material of Buckley's views on race, and the Mein Kampf quote is really excessive. Compare this to say, his feud with Gore Vidal, which I would argue was covered more extensively in reliable sources. Second is the circular referencing. Misplaced Pages should never use itself as a reference. Discussing old versions of a page would be classified as WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH, unless it was notable, in which case it would be covered by external sources. –CWenger (^ • @) 18:13, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Completely new abortion proposal and mediation

In light of the seemingly endless disputes over their respective titles, a neutral mediator has crafted a proposal to rename the two major abortion articles (pro-life/anti-abortion movement, and pro-choice/abortion rights movement) to completely new names. The idea, which is located here, is currently open for opinions. As you have been a contributor in the past to at least one of the articles, your thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.

The hope is that, if a consensus can be reached on the article titles, the energy that has been spent debating the titles of the articles here and here can be better spent giving both articles some much needed improvement to their content. Please take some time to read the proposal and weigh in on the matter. Even if your opinion is simple indifference, that opinion would be valuable to have posted.

To avoid concerns that this notice might violate WP:CANVASS, this posting is being made to every non-anon editor who has edited either page (or either page's respective talk page) since 1 July 2010, irrespective of possible previous participation at the mediation page. HuskyHuskie (talk) 22:21, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I took your advice re my problem with IE9

I felt that others may have noted this shortcoming and a discussionn about it on the IE9 talk page may have been useful but I have far less experience editing Misplaced Pages and do not know anything about computer programming so I will not argue the point.1archie99 (talk) 03:43, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I hope it didn't come off as rude. Anyway, as to your question, IE9 just merged the search bar with the address bar. When you type something there that doesn't look like a URL it should bring up a little menu with search options, including providers other than Google, which are installed just like in IE8 I believe. Let me know if you can't get it. –CWenger (^ • @) 03:49, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

The Cleanup Barnstar

		The Cleanup Barnstar
		You deserve a barnstar for the edit in Operation Entebbe where you changed "immidiatly came in his senses" to "immediately came to his senses". Dimension31 (talk) 05:39, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

DodgeBall

Although I understood why you trimmed down most of the specific examples I had included, I restored some aspects of the original edit:

• The cite of the original legal complaint. Per WP:BLPPRIMARY: "Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source. In this case the first condition is met, and I feel it is acceptable to use the legal complaint in addition to the Times story since the latter can only sum up so much of the allegations, and may not always do so accurately; the reader deserves the chance to look at the original complaint as well.

• The plaintiffs' allegation that Thurber had access to the script, since it means the suit goes beyond the mere striking-similarities argument. In fact, since Judge Scheindlin found that there were enough differences to make it a question of fact (I included the China thing since she specifically cites it (and a surprise counterargument) in her opinion, which I have also cited as a source, she ruled that the plaintiffs would have to prove that Thurber had access to prevail. It's relevant.

I do wish I could find out how this was resolved ... as usual, there's a big hoo-hah in the media from both sides when cases like this get litigated, but when everyone settles out of court (as they usually do, save Art Buchwald). So far I have found nothing. I have never believed that the absence of reliable reporting on the resolution of a lawsuit means that we shouldn't mention it if there is coverage of the lawsuit. Daniel Case (talk) 03:24, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for discussing this. I agree with you on the first issue. As for the second issue, my concern is more about undue weight as opposed to keeping out specific points. It is hard to find much coverage of this event in reliable sources so we should limit this section to one short paragraph (some might argue it should only be a sentence). We could keep the part about Thurber possibly having access to the script, but I think we should leave out every all the details about the judge's decision. Just saying she ordered a jury trial is sufficient. If the readers want more details on her ruling they can read about it in the references. –CWenger (^ • @) 03:34, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

You're welcome on the first count. On the second, I do consider the combination of federal court filings and a New York Times story to be the two sources that would establish it as a notable aspect of that film. Maybe we should search the LA Times or Variety archives? I can't imagine they wouldn't have covered this ... copyright infringement suits get filed after every hit movie, but it is very rare that they survive motions for summary judgement.

I'll trim back the detail, but I do think lay readers are owed some explanation of the reasoning behind a court decision. From my experience at WP:SCOTUS, I think most readers find legal language to be intimidating and dense. I'll see what I can do.

OK. The law firm that represented the screenwriters says it was "successful". One of Fox's lawyers said they "obtained a favorable settlement". I guess we can say it was settled out of court. Daniel Case (talk) 03:57, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

If there is information about a settlement then details about the judge's preliminary ruling probably isn't needed. All I ask if you keep the length reasonable. As an upper bound, it should be shorter than the first paragraph of the Reception section. Does that sound fair? –CWenger (^ • @) 04:05, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I have it to that length. As I said, cases like these rarely get past summary judgement, so that should be noted although I have not gone into detail about why. (It has also occurred to me why there's minimal coverage of this and none from the LA papers and the trades ... the suit was filed and heard in New York). I'm happy with what's there now. Sorry we had to tussle over it a bit. Daniel Case (talk) 04:13, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

No problem, and I'm fine with it as it is now. Glad we came to an agreement here. –CWenger (^ • @) 04:15, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Turtle website

Hi dear editor. I recently added an external link on the article about turtles to a website where it was possible to watch on live three pet turtles. The site was free and it was somehow enciclopedic as it was possible to see on real time turtles behavior. May you kindly tell me why you have removed? Thank you very much for your kind atention.João Pimentel Ferreira 14:53, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's policy on external links (WP:EL) is quite strict. The site you added, while interesting, almost certainly does not qualify. I think it would fall under WP:ELNO #11. If you want a second opinion you could post a message at Talk:Turtle. –CWenger (^ • @) 18:39, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Municipality disambiguation

Hi, CWenger. Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names)#United States explains the disambiguation convention. Powers 02:08, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! –CWenger (^ • @) 02:14, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your many helpful contributions to Wiki

I would like to thank you for your many helpful contributions to Wiki, especially on the Red Eye article. As you know, I have tried my best in the past months to make helpful contributions to that article, especially by adding reliable sources which were lacking on that article. Again, thanks for your contributions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RedEyedCajun (talk • contribs) 08:20, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Great work re Scott Walker (politician)

Great work. I was editing the page recently and I can't believe I somehow missed that whole disgraceful paragraph. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 00:04, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I am not sure how I missed it for so long either. –CWenger (^ • @) 00:08, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

While the criticisms are of course all true, they were grossly violative of NPOV and had no place in the article. Good catch. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:09, 27 July 2011 (UTC) (who for obvious reasons stays away from that article)

Re:

Sorry, did not notice you only had three at the moment. I did not report you, so no harm done. Toa Nidhiki05 02:04, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Ron Paul

• Ron Paul (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Thanks for reverting my change. Probably due to the length of this article my edits were taking several seconds to be made so our close changes overlapped unintentionally. Cheers Fæ (talk) 07:23, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
  • No problem. I figured that's what had happened, it was being really slow for me too. –CWenger (^ • @) 07:25, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Alleged...

Hi, CWenger. Could I impose upon you to self-revert this 2nd revert of the day that you made on the TPm article? The article is under 1RR probation, but that isn't the reason I am asking (I have no intention of reporting an obviously good faith edit). You changed a lead sentence to convey that a number of racial ("spic", "nigger", etc.) and homophobic ("faggot", "commie homo", etc.) slurs were only "alleged" instead of reported, which is misleading and incorrect. They were all reported; and after checking the sources, there is certainly nothing "alleged" about most of them. The sentence you modified describes all of the slurs made at the health care protest that weekend, not just the "nigger" slur you seem to be specifically addressing with your edit. Thanks. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:39, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the message. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that 3RR and 1RR only applied to your own edits. As to the content, I see your point. The Washington Post source does report the homosexual slur as a fact, so we should reflect that, as we already do. But I also think it is important to convey that the slurs against the African-American congressmen are thus far unproven. The Hispanic slur is in a separate paragraph, about a different rally, so readers shouldn't associate the two. As I said in my edit summary, I think the best solution is to rewrite the first paragraph in the section. I think we agree that aside from the first sentence, the rest of the paragraph is fine. –CWenger (^ • @) 18:55, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Per the 2nd sentence of of the WaPo source, I've replaced the "was reported" wording, because that source actually reports that "The Post and other news organizations had reported a series of incidents". As for your concern that "it is important to convey that the slurs against the African-American congressmen are thus far unproven", I believe that is inaccurate. Accurate would be to say that those particular slurs are "contested" (mostly by people who weren't even there). One could say the gay slurs, at 2 separate incidents, were unproven because the recordings could have been doctored. One could say the "spic" slurs were unproven, because the websites where they appeared could have been hacked. One could say the "nigger" slurs were unproven because the several eyewitnesses could all have been lying. No, we don't convey that something is unproven simply because one person's arbitrary burden of proof hasn't been met - we convey what the reliable sources say. By the way, the spic slurs were made at the same health care rally (that is sourced), but in reference to immigration reform supporters that had arrived that same weekend for a different rally on the mall. That health care rally lasted all weekend, Thomas was there for 3 days of it, and we shouldn't confuse the readers.

I have a problem with this edit because it is not true regarding the racial slurs; the Washington Post just reports what the congressmen said. The only thing that is completely true is that U.S. congressmen said slurs were used against them, which is why I liked AzureCitizen's edit. Can you explain the issue you have with that version? –CWenger (^ • @) 19:00, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

That edit is true of the racial slurs; the Washington Post just reports that the Washington Post reported those slurs. I've addressed this more fully on AzureCitizen's talk page -- killing two birds with one stone. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:22, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

The source says the Washington Post reported "a series of incidents"—those incidents being Frank being called a gay slur, Cleaver saying he was spit on, and Carson and Lewis saying they were called racial slurs. In the next paragraph they are very careful to differentiate the Frank incident from the other two by adding "said", and we should reflect that. Writing "it was reported that protesters against the bill used racial and homophobic slurs" is inaccurate, unless you are saying the congressmen did the "reporting", which is confusing. (Man, I feel like a lawyer.) What do you think of my proposed edit? I think we can avoid this issue by simply not summarizing the reports. –CWenger (^ • @) 21:52, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Just between us, do you see any logic in claiming: Sure, some of the "loud and angry" protesters called the gays "faggots" and "homos", left swastikas on the Jew's desk and fax machine, called the Hispanics "spics" — but call a black man "nigger"?!? That's un-American, and I refuse to believe it happened unless I see it on 3-D Video with Dolby surround-sound! It makes no sense to me. I think the "it never happened" folks are doing a serious disservice to the movement and its image. It would make more sense to simply point out that there are idiots in every large crowd; denounce the acts as wrong and not representative of the movement; then get back to business. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 18:44, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I mostly agree with you. But I'm sure you would agree that fake allegations of such things have been made before. It's a natural inclination to contest such claims when there is no proof, lest you invite more of the same. And though we'll probably disagree on this part, I think the mainstream media gives conservative groups like the Tea Party a far more difficult time over isolated idiots in the crowd, so that's even more incentive to contest the borderline allegations. –CWenger (^ • @) 19:00, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

While "fake allegations" have been made throughout history, they tend to have some sort of reasoning and logic and goal behind them. If you just insinuated that several congressmen lied, I must now ask you to go one step further and explain why? I know you aren't going to suggest it was premeditated, because any idiot knows how easy it is to plant people in a crowd to stir things up and make sure it makes the news. Perhaps you'll suggest it was a spontaneous little deceit perpetrated by several congressmen? It doesn't appear so:

Breitbart insists they "made it up." If so, they're good actors. Roxana Tiron, a reporter for the Hill newspaper, said she was talking with a congressional staffer inside a House entrance to the Capitol when a "trembling" and "agitated" Carson said he and Lewis had just been called the N-word by protesters outside. "He literally grabbed me by the arm and . . . said 'You need to come out with me,' " imploring her to step back outside to listen to the taunts. Post reporter Paul Kane was nearby and witnessed Carson's reaction. "It was real. It was raw. It was angry. It was emotional. And he wanted it documented," recalled Kane, who said U.S. Capitol Police prevented them from going outside.

...and I am eager to hear what possible reasoning there could be behind it, and from people of their stature, no less. As for comments about "mainstream media", you've totally lost me -- the last time I checked, FOX News is the mainstream media, comprising more market share, ratings and coverage than any two other news sources combined. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 21:22, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I am sure walking through a crowd of people who are extremely pissed off at what you are about to do would not be a pleasant experience and would leave most people "trembling" and "agitated". And the reasoning behind it would be to subtly intimidate those who oppose the bill by claiming the opposition is only motivated by racism. Fox News is part of the mainstream media, but I think you'll agree their reporting is substantially different from the rest of TV news, i.e. they are significantly less critical of the Tea Party. –CWenger (^ • @) 21:52, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

It was too late to "intimidate" those who were voting against the bill, so perhaps the several congressmen were conspiring to lay the groundwork for the next hot political issue? I found the fact that Carson wanted to immediately drag reporters back out in the fray to witness it firsthand more compelling - that is not something a person who is "making stuff up" does. As for FOX News, I would agree that their reporting of the TPers is substantially the same as the rest of TV media, while their promotion of the TPers, at least initially, was substantially different from the rest of TV media. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 22:25, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Not to intimidate other congressmen, but the American public. You could perhaps imagine an analogous situation in which a Republican might drum up a story about a soldier treated poorly to elicit a sympathetic response for more defense funding, say. –CWenger (^ • @) 23:06, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

(Copied over from AzureCitizen's Talk Page so that we can get all three of us chatting about this in a single location)

I rarely take issue with edits made by AzureCitizen, as they are not only well considered, but they often have the additional valuable quality of being bulletproof when made during an ongoing "edit war" firefight. I must take exception with this edit, however. Please read the source to which that sentence is cited here, and pay particular attention to the first two sentences. AzureCitizen's choice of words is an improvement over using "alleged", but still falls short of 100% accuracy, as congressman Frank never "said" he was called slurs. They were witnessed by reporters, one was even caught on video, and the slurs then "were reported". Even the WaPo article takes care not to say "Frank said..." when it runs down the list of different incidents. Also note that the WaPo article states that the incidents were "reported", and goes on to explain that some accuse the Washington Post of "reporting" those incidents without proper proof. So I have returned the "were reported" text to the article. (I hope this also answers the question you asked of me on your talk page, CWenger.) Best regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 20:52, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Barney Frank didn't say it but Heath Schuler, another congressman, did, as is mentioned later on in the paragraph. So it is true but could be more informative. I suggest we just cut out the last half of the lead sentence in the paragraph: –CWenger (^ • @) 21:05, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

On March 20, 2010, before the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Bill was voted on, several black lawmakers said that demonstrators shouted "nigger" at them. Congressman Emanuel Cleaver said he heard the slurs and was spat upon. Congressman Barney Frank, who is gay, was called a "faggot".

It's "Shuler" - and no, Shuler didn't say it. He did, however, later, not on March 20, confirm hearing slurs. So it is not true. That prompts me to ask why you now suggest cutting out the true last half of the lead sentence?

Looking beyond that single sentence, I've been of the opinion that the whole section is in dire need of some serious rework. Rework that will probably make this discussion moot. Xenophrenic (talk) 22:44, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I suggest cutting out the last half of the lead sentence because the accuracy is questionable and the only way to make it acceptable would be to construct a doubtless awkward sentence that treats the anti-gay and racial slurs differently. I am suggesting we instead just sacrifice the summary part of the sentence and dive right into the facts. But I would be open to a rewrite. If you decide to do so let's start a new section at Talk:Tea Party movement. –CWenger (^ • @) 23:19, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

Gosh, this one has some subtle nuances to it, doesn't it! As Xeno knows quite well, I often try to find some stable middle ground for all involved so that a cease fire is more palpable, but both of you have made calm, solid, and reasonable points that there are inaccuracies either way the text and issue has been framed so far. Before we continue, do we all agree on the following four items?

1. Using "alleged" instead of "reported" or "said" is inappropriate because it's being employed here solely for the purpose of casting doubt.

2. It is indisputable that both the homophobic slurs and the racial epithets incidents were "reported" by journalists. We even have a secondary RS that says they were reported, as Xeno pointed out.

3. Independent witnesses heard Congressman Frank being called a f*ggot, so rather than the text of the article saying "lawmakers said Frank was called a f*ggot", it is appropriate to say "Frank was called a f*ggot" in its factual context.

4. With the racial epithets, we have a problem lumping them in with the homophobic slur, given that the same level of corroboration is not present. As CWenger pointed out, the Washington Post pointed out a series of incidents and differentiated by adding "said," so we should probably follow suit in keeping that clarification as well. Or put another way, it would be more reasonable and fair to say that "it was reported that several congressmen said" rather than a flat fact "it was reported", given the inherent level of dispute over what really happened.

I'll stop there and let you both respond,plus I see CWenger is waiting to see what Xenophrenic thinks of his alternate wording proposal (above) as well. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 22:43, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Point #2 is somewhat borderline...but basically exactly what you said in point #4. –CWenger (^ • @) 22:55, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify, in #2 I meant that the incidents were reported (be it that congressmen heard the word n*gger, or that Frank was called a f*ggot), not that the reporters necessarily witnessed the offending incidents themselves. AzureCitizen (talk) 23:01, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Number 2 isn't in any way borderline. It's spot on. Our WaPo source (and I consider it a good one because it not only re-visits the slur events, it also examines the very reporting done about those events) makes clear that news sources reported on the incidents.

Demonstrators at the Capitol were loud and angry on March 20 as they jeered House Democrats preparing to approve landmark health-care legislation. Before the day ended, The Post and other news organizations had reported a series of incidents so ugly they were denounced by congressional leaders of both parties.

Our source then goes on to explain that (as AzureCitizen also points out in #4), while the same level of corroboration (recordings) is not present for the n-word slurs, eyewitness evidence does exist. Our source further indicates that the claims disputing those eyewitness accounts are dubious. The whole effort to remove or qualify sourced uses of "reporting" in the description of events appears to me to be an attempt to water down the credibility of those descriptions, in order to support the "it never happened" meme. Xenophrenic (talk) 23:32, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

All along you have agreed there is a different level of confidence in the Washington Post article concerning the anti-gay versus racial slurs. Now you seem to want to discount that. And I am still waiting to hear feedback on my proposed replacement that removes summarization of the incidents and simply states the facts. AzureCitizen, can I get your thoughts on it as well? –CWenger (^ • @) 23:42, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

All along I have agreed that all of the incidents were reported. Equally. The only "difference" I have acknowledged between the n-word slurs and the other racial slurs and gay slurs is the kind of evidence available — eyewitness versus recorded media. The WaPo source doesn't convey a lesser confidence, it merely neutrally concludes:

Breitbart's $100,000 challenge may be publicity-seeking theater. But it's part of widespread conservative claims that mainstream media, including The Post, swallowed a huge fabrication. The incidents are weeks old, but it's worth assigning Post reporters to find the truth. After all, a civil rights legend is being called a liar. That aside, there's serious money at stake.

As for your proposed reword that cuts out factual text, I asked (above) why you wished to cut out that text. Your only response thus far: "because the accuracy is questionable". Here is the text you removed: it was reported that protesters against the bill used racial and homophobic slurs at a rally at the United States Capitol in Washington, D.C. That is accurate. And it is verifiable (please read the first 2 sentences of our source). And it is the truth. And beyond all that, it was written by an ombudsman fully apprised of your position, my position, and the challenge to the reporting done on those events — yet he opened his detailed article by conveying it. And you wish to remove that text as inaccurate? I still do not see why. Xenophrenic (talk) 00:46, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Racial slurs were not reported. Alleged/unconfirmed racial slurs were reported. Or it was reported that congressmen said there were racial slurs. The title of the article is even "Allegations of spitting and slurs at Capitol protest merit more reporting"—that should tell us something. Anyway, the two of us arguing is getting counterproductive. I'm going to take my proposal to the talk page. –CWenger (^ • @) 00:55, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Just returned from going out for dinner and sat down to look in on this thread... I understand you've now transplanted the issue to a new section at the bottom of the TPM talk page which is bound to attract a lot more editors who will want to contribute their own two cents. I will add remarks after others have weighed in; in the interim, might I suggest we highlight with bold the text that we're proposing be changed? For clarity, as to the difference between the two paragraphs? Tell you what, I will make that edit right now so that you can see what I mean... please revert me if you think I've got it wrong, or if you think it's actually clearer without the bolding. AzureCitizen (talk) 01:50, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

FNC Logo

Hi "C" I wondered if I could get your input on the discussion here regarding the FNC Logo, I have an Editor who has engaged me in an unprovoked edit war regards to the FNC logo, Thanx Jetijonez (talk) 06:33, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Re:

No, consensus seems to have been reached. Thanks for asking. :)Toa Nidhiki05 02:29, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Formal mediation has been requested

The Mediation Committee has received a request for formal mediation of the dispute relating to "Opposition to the legalisation of abortion". As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. Mediation is a voluntary process which resolves a dispute over article content by facilitation, consensus-building, and compromise among the involved editors. After reviewing the request page, the formal mediation policy, and the guide to formal mediation, please indicate in the "party agreement" section whether you agree to participate. Because requests must be responded to by the Mediation Committee within seven days, please respond to the request by January 26, 2011.

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Abortion RFAR

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