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Marcus Bachmann

Marcus Bachmann (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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I've never been accused of beating around the bush, so let me say that what we have here is crystal-clearly following in the footsteps of Campaign for "santorum" neologism; editors are creating WP:BLP articles on marginally-notable people that they don't like, so that said article will become a platform from which to criticize the subject. Not a single thing this man has done on his own meets our general notability guideline. He is the spouse of a current presidential candidate. He is the head of a religious clinic that attracted some press for offering conversion therapy. If the only things you can say about a person is that a) they have a famous spouse, and b) there are ideological outcries over a service that his organization offers, then that doesn't comes within a mile of the WP:GNG. Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. BLPs cannot be allowed to serve as a coatrack for perceived anti-gay religious groups. Tarc (talk) 23:14, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

• Keep - I disagree with Tarc's analysis. COI: I wrote this stub. The article is heavily sourced to Marcus Bachmann-specific mainstream media stories, for which there are many, meeting WP:V. The lack of a Marcus article causes WP:WEIGHT issues on wp:Michele Bachmann, particularly in regards to his Christian counseling clinic, and his family's farm. Michele's long article has enough Michele-related controversy that lumping in Marcus-related issues is not optimal. Michele Bachmann's strong campaign has made him the focus of attention as a possible First Gentleman--only increasing--which is why in the spirit of Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is comprehensive we have a strong interest to explain to our readers this subject neutrally, without speculation. On the article's first day of creation it had 2,000 views, showing this need exists; I imagine today's hits will be much higher. --David Shankbone 00:23, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Delete Per Tarc. Yes, Tarc, you may frame this. :-) Jclemens (talk) 00:30, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Keep per David Shankbone. Articles on spouses of presidential candidates are pretty standard here. We've even got one on the wife of novelty candidate Dennis Kucinich, and Bachmann's gotten a lot more support and attention than he. Gamaliel (talk) 00:44, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Comment - These may be useful links for those who wonder where this article is headed: Dan Savage July 12 2011 podcast, Dan Savage blog post entitled "Marcus Bachmann's Big Gay Problem", Slate article entitled "Dan Savage:Bully", and Slate article entitled "Read My Lisp". Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

DC, I think it's good that you found more mainstream media sources that address the subject in his own right, but I think that it's important that we avoid WP:SPECULATION and stick to verifiable facts for a BLP. --David Shankbone 01:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I'm glad we have this opportunity to work together again. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:02, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

So 'where this article is heading' is an attack on the subject's personal mannerisms and a series of evidence-free sneers that he's lying about his sexual orientation? Wonderful. Hope everyone who is voting 'keep' realizes what it is they are assisting. →StaniStani  06:23, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep: Flawed nomination. The subject has received mainstream media coverage, which means that he surpasses the Notability criteria. Spouses of major presidential candidates do normally get their own wikipedia articles in cases where they are extensively covered by the media: See Hadassah Lieberman, Kitty Dukakis, Todd Palin, Cindy McCain, etc. Victor Victoria (talk) 00:49, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Keep Notablity might not be inherited, but Bachmann certainly has been the subject of significant coverage in reliable sourcesSt8fan (talk) 00:55, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. The subject will continue to be in the public spotlight so long as his wife is running for US president. I'm inclined to think that there hasn't been sufficient coverage yet to make meet the notability standard, but I strongly suspect that there will be more coverage in the near future and that it would put the article over the threshold. We could delete it now and recreate it in a week or a month, but I don't see how anyone benefits from exercise. So I suggest keeping the article now and thinking about deletion again in a couple of months.   Will Beback  talk  01:00, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm inclined to think the other way. Why should we keep an article on someone without adequate source material? Kevin (talk) 01:04, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
    • There are a dozen sources, so it's not exactly inadequately sourced. No material in the article is unsourced. In many respects this is article is significantly superior to a huge number of BLPs and other articles. But this discussions isn't purely about sources, just about notability.   Will Beback  talk  06:50, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Delete. Yes there is some mainstream media coverage, but nothing where he is covered in his own right. Kevin (talk) 01:00, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Keep- His notability is demonstrably his own, not his wife's. Umbralcorax (talk) 01:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• Keep. Subject is covered in plenty of reliable sources, and (contrary to what Tarc says) not in merely a WP:INHERITED fashion. Deleting the article means we run the risk of coatracking the Michele Bachmann article as more and more of these stories about Marcus hit the national and international news. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:15, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• Keep I think you've kinda jumped the gun here. This should have been discussed first before going straight to an AfD. There is pretty much only a single sentence in the article actually about the campaign. and the info in it not about the campaign can definitely be expanded with the sources out there. Silverseren 01:18, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Keep, bordering on strong. He's becoming the John Zaccaro of the 2012 campaign. There's a major piece on him and his business in today's New York Times, "Bachmann Husband's Counseling Center Raises Questions". And that;s hardly the only coverage he's received, as a straightforward GNews search shows. There was a moderately lengthy profile in the Washington Post not two weeks ago.Michele Bachmann’s husband shares her strong conservative values. There's more than enough source material to write a solid article, and more than enough coverage to justify one -- in fact, it demands one. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 01:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Comment - Predictably, the Dan Savage standard-bearers are out in early force. We all know exactly what is going on here; this article was created by Shankbone for the same reasons that Cirt created the one on the faux santorum neologism. Not one of these insipid keeps has addressed a single issue of why this was nominated; there is nothing notable about "Marcus Bachmann" the man. What mentions there are in reliable sources are either in connection to his famous wife (WP:NOTINHERITED or to his clinic that (quite obviously and understandably) has earned enmity from the gay rights crowd. I'm quite aware that 2012 is shaping up to be one of the nastiest, most bitter years in American politics. But try...please, try...just once to not make the Misplaced Pages another front in your personal crusades. Tarc (talk) 01:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

This is not how NOTINHERITED works. No one's making the argument that the subject is notable because his wife is notable. The subject is notable because he has received significant coverage in reliable sources. The coverage probably would not have come if his wife were not notable, but it is coverage all the same. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:38, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Tarc, I don't think it does your argument any favors to Misplaced Pages:Assume bad faith. There's no evidence anyone has any interest in using this article to attack the subject. As it is written, it is neutral, informative and reliably sourced, and I have no more to add to it. We are all committed to WP:ENC and it's a shame you disparage. --David Shankbone 01:50, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Well said, David. Tarc has let his emotions get the better of him here. For the record, I disagree with Roscelese's statement that Marcus Bachmann has "received significant coverage" in RS. The majority of the source coverage is about his relationship with his wife and the controversy over his business practices. This has less to do with Marcus and more to do with his wife and business. Viriditas (talk) 03:41, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Roscelese can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what she's trying to say is that: yes, Marcus is getting all this attention because he's married to Michelle, but the attention is now on him nonetheless. Victor Victoria (talk) 03:56, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

That's a pretty good explanation of my position. Not every shady counselor gets national news coverage - this one happens to have got it because he has a notable wife whose campaign his shady counseling will affect, but it's still coverage of him, not of his wife. We don't decide that people are notable because of their relatives (ie. NOTINHERITED), but if reliable sources do so and consequently give them significant coverage, we go along with them. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:34, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

My emotions are just fine, sport, so kindly take your armchair psychoanalysis to someone who cares. AGF is not a suicide pact, and I will not give it where there is clear evidence of bad-faith editing. This article was created in bad faith. Those who are calling to keep it are acting in bad faith. Period. The "OMG RELIABLY SOURCED" argument is not the be all and end all of determining who gets a wikipedia article and who does not. When we have a case here where the man is only being talked about because of a famous relative, then we should consider not having an article. How many dozens or hundreds of conservative christians run these sorts of therapy clinics in the country? How many of them are married to a political candidate? Tarc (talk) 14:13, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

If there's evidence that David Shankbone or anyone else is acting in bad faith, then present it in an RFC or to Arbcom, please don't sidetrack this discussion with irrelevant personal accusations. Gamaliel (talk) 14:52, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The "OMG RELIABLY SOURCED" argument is not the be all and end all of determining who gets a wikipedia article and who does not.. You are absolutely wrong, Tarc. See Jimbo's statement "Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge. That's what we're doing." Misplaced Pages is therefore supposed to have an article on anything and everything that is notable. Victor Victoria (talk) 20:00, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

My dear Vic, argumentam ad Jimboem doesn't carry a shred of credibility, so please don't waste my time with such nonsense. Your "you are absolutely wrong" pontification is demonstrably false, and I can point to many, many articles that I have had a hand in deleting as proof. Do we have an article about the woman fired from her job for having large breasts? No. Do we have an article on the reporter who suffered a mild aphasia episode live last year? No. Do we have an article on the JetBlue attendant who went on a tirade? No. Do we have an article on Daniel Brandt? No. Do we have an article on the time Barack Obama swatted a fly during an interview? No. This is an encyclopedia, not a vacuum cleaner. We choose what to chronicle and what to discard. every day. Tarc (talk) 22:28, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Tarc, would you please take a step back or tone it down? You're the only one in this discussion on either side who is gnashing teeth, making the questioning of others' motivations your central argument and being uncivil. The rest of us are discussing it calmly. I also ask you to please do the same on Talk:Marcus Bachmann. Comments like these aren't helpful. --David Shankbone 23:04, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Silence, Shankbone. I will discuss the topic as I see fit. Your use of the Misplaced Pages to denigrate living people is far, far worse than me puncturing some thin-skinned egos. Stop wasting AfD space discussing me; discuss the topic. Tarc (talk) 23:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• Plenty of reliable sources about this guy. Keep it. -- Y not? 02:37, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Delete. Per nominator and WP:BLP concerns. Ripberger (talk) 03:19, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Keep Significant coverage in reliable sources. Qrsdogg (talk) 04:17, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Keep per Qrsdogg. Clearly there is significant coverage in multiple reliable sources. Meets WP:GNG.--JayJasper (talk) 04:43, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Keep per WP:HOTTIE. Voyager640 (talk) 05:41, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Delete another coatrack article created in the heat of a political campaign. Another example of using Misplaced Pages's high Google ranking to knock your opponent. This article is #4 in a Google search for the subject's name, and its payload is the 'reparative therapy' allegation. Regardless of the subject's political orientation, sleazy practices, or deserved obloquy, Misplaced Pages should not be used as an attack dog. →StaniStani  06:16, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Redirect: to some section of Michele Bachmann. The search term is legitimate; this article is not. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:39, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Redirect to Michele Bachmann. Marcus has stayed out of the news for many years now. While I sincerely applaud the LGBT community for finally saying "we're sick and tired of this bullshit and we're not going to take it anymore", the collected sources on this subject say little to nothing about Marcus as a person, and are mostly about the reparative therapy controversy and the wacky political positions held by his wife. The potential for very serious BLP issues here outweighs any encyclopedic necessity, and until the time comes that we have good, comprehensive sources about Marcus and his life apart from his wife and her political positions, this article only serves to cause trouble. However, I can also envision a good article that talks about Marcus Bachmann and reparative therapy somewhere other than a BLP, for example in our articles on conversion therapy, the ex-gay movement, religion and homosexuality, or my personal favorite that has not yet been created, homophobia and the Republican Party. ("The Republican Party has engineered a strategy for winning close elections by attracting the votes of homophobes, in particular by attacking proposals to allow sexual minorities to serve openly in the armed forces and efforts to achieve marriage equality for same-sex couples.") As it stands, our current article on Marcus Bachmann repeats what already appears in the family section of the Michele Bachmann article. With that said, there is simply no need for an article on her husband at this time. Viriditas (talk) 07:37, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Re: the duplication of what appears in the article on Michele Bachmann - I actually see this as a positive thing. It means that we will be able to simply link this article and trim the content in the Michele Bachmann article to a short summary. Otherwise, we run the risk of making the Michele Bachmann article a coatrack for information about Marcus's shady practices as more and more stories about him hit the national and international news, whereas if he has his own article, we can keep the Michele article about Michele. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:34, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• I advocate keeping this article because Mr Bachmann's business practices have received substantial third-party coverage. DS (talk) 18:23, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Redirect/Merge to Michele Bachmann presidential campaign, 2012. We might definitely want/need an article on Mr. Bachmann as time goes on, and I don't think it's a huge surprise (or necessarily evidence of malfeasance) that one was created. At the same time, Marcus Bachmann is in the news not only because of who he is married to, but because that person is running a seemingly credible campaign for the presidency—i.e., WP:BLP1E plays a partial role here. His past actions are causing controversy almost solely in one context relating to his wife's political career. As such, I think the general campaign article for Michele Bachmann is the appropriate place for information on Marcus, where we can discuss his impact on the campaign (merging to Michele Bachmann is also possible but I think much less desirable). I also agree with Veriditas that some of this story might be appropriate for discussion in articles like conversion therapy but I'm not sure about this. As others have pointed out, the possible BLP problems are very real and should be taken into account. More so than with other articles, I do not trust our ability to keep this article balanced and free from slander. Because I think avoiding harm is an important part of the spirit of our BLP policy and having a standalone article is significantly more problematic in that regard, because Mr. Bachmann remains a fairly marginal figure whose notability attaches almost exclusively to his wife's run for the presidency, and because we can give readers basically the exact same information by merging and leaving behind a redirect, I think it makes sense at this point to not have a full bio article. As I said that may change at some later date--or not--and obviously there is nothing permanent about a merge/redirect. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:24, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Delete: if it weren't for his wife running for president noone would care about this guy. Roscelese has no right to malign this BLP by calling him "shady." He provides a valuable service by helping homosexuals overcome unwanted same-sex urges. – Lionel 21:07, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Delete or Redirect/Merge: I favor either deleting this entry or merging it into a section of the entry on Michele Bachmann. I concur with the previous comment that, were it not for his wife running for president, he would not be the subject of a Misplaced Pages entry. While some of the spouses of other announced or prospective presidential candidates have entries, based on their former status as first ladies or (in the case of Todd Palin) first gentleman of a given state, Marcus Bachmann holds no such distinction. It seems that, factual or not, the only reason that an entry was created on him is to highlight his Christian counseling clinic and use the clinic's alleged practices and procedures regarding homosexuality as a round-about "gotcha"-type piece against his wife. SWMNPoliSciProject (talk) 21:28, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

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